Did Jesus Predict his Own Death?

Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses.
The Christian faith is rooted in the belief that Jesus died for the sins of the world and was then raised from the dead. But is this what Jesus himself preached during his public ministry? In the Gospels, Jesus certainly predicts his coming death, on numerous occasions. But are those saying historical? How would scholars know? What is the evidence both ways? And if Jesus did not anticipate, let alone predict, his death, does that completely undermine the Christian faith?
In this episode, Megan asks Bart:
-In general, why do historical scholars find it difficult to know what Jesus really said?
-How do they decide? What kinds of historical criteria do they use to distinguish his actual teachings and the sayings put on his lips by the Gospel writers?
-What are some examples of sayings that you don’t think are authentic to Jesus?
-In the Gospels Jesus predicts that he has to go to Jerusalem to be rejected and killed. That seems in the Gospels to be the goal of his ministry. Do you think that’s what he had in mind?
-What would be the arguments in favor of thinking that these predictions go back to Jesus himself?
-What are the arguments for doubting that Jesus made these kinds of predictions?
-Is it possible that the passion predictions that occur within Jerusalem are a result of Jesus realizing that he’d crossed enough lines that he might be headed for a death sentence?
-Suppose you’re right and that, historically, Jesus never made an explicit prediction of his death or claimed that his death would provide salvation for others. Does that mean that, theologically, the Christian message is wrong? Does it mean that his death was not a sacrifice for sins?

[@simonbattle0001]

I'm sorry to hear about your colleague associate professor Zijie Yan My condolences to all.

[@redandblue323]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention that, I’m spite of numerous, clear predictions of Jesus’ upcoming death, the disciples are nonetheless caught off guard by it.

[@robinhood20253]

Spent yesterday worried about Dr Ehrman, after the shooting. So sorry about your faculty member. It is a dangerous time in our country now. IF YOU DONT LIKE MY COMMENT, TOO BAD. I SAID WHAT I SAID .

[@321-Islam-Unpacked]

Oh no. Link?

[@BOWEZER]

​@@321-Islam-Unpacked Google Chapel Hill shooting..

[@arnulfo267]

All because a law from the 1700s says that citizens can own muskets.

[@jtta8282]

​@@arnulfo267There are laws from about 1400 years ago asking muslims to fight non-muslims. If you speak about them, you will be labeled islamophobic racist bigot.

[@petrairene]

I hope bible critical theologists don't eventually land on the kill list of crazy fanatical Christian terrorists.

[@SergeantSkeptic686]

Bart, my sincere condolences for the loss of your colleague. He seemed such a treasured young scientist and decent human. I'm so sorry this happened.

[@charleskennedy7951]

Sorry for your loss. I'm sure even you have moments when there is nothing you can do but pray.

[@AnnePerkins-po5jo]

The Gospel of Mark is my favourite. It is so fast-paced and the anticipation Mark sets up is very engaging. One thing I noticed in my readings is that according to Mark, Jesus often jumps into a boat and goes offshore when things get a bit 'hot' so I infer that he likely chose those fishermen with a knowledge of how dangerous his ministry was. He knew he was making enemies and seemed to know just how dangerous going to Jerusalem and was for his continued life. The messianic secret in this gospel supports this idea too, I think. Also, it seems that putting words in Jesus' mouth is disturbing and detracts from the faith tradition in some ways. Thank you for your wonderful scholarly insights that help make sense of Christianity.

[@AnnePerkins-po5jo]

Sorry, after Jerusalem the 'and' was meant to be followed by 'creating a fuss at the temple.'

[@KaijuOfTheOpera]

I could predict my own death to if I was going around doing things people knew would get them killed.

[@karlkutac1800]

Megan is such a good interviewer. Good job

[@RowdyRodimus]

Anyone else tune in every week partially to see Megan's glasses of the week?

[@kelliewillson8230]

My sympathies on the loss of your colleague. This shooting brought up all the same emotions in me as the February shooting at Michigan State in my community. The feelings are hard to express in words, but deeply felt.

[@taffybanda2082]

Thanx as always Dr Ehrman and thank you Meghan. Wonderful episode

[@penny459]

This is a brilliant session. Brilliant interviewer and brilliant interviewee. Thanks for all you’ve done Dr Ehrman, you have been a HUGE challenge to me as a fundamentalist Christian, who once believed the Bible was absolutely infallible, but also a truth seeker. Well you popped that bubble within me Dr Ehrman and I’ve been on a journey with you for the best part of the past three years, nearly lost my faith entirely In “Christianity” but believe I’ve now come out the other side with my faith still intact, but with much more truth as to the reality of “things” to put it in simplistic terms. Albeit I’ve come through altered but I still see Christ as the fundamental plan of God, the only hope for overcoming the deepest evil in this world, the only hope for the ultimate survival of mankind and knowing that we are all used in Gods Kingdom, in one way or another.

[@StevenSmolak]

🙏🏻🌎❤️

[@longcastle4863]

Excellent interview. Thank you 😊

[@albertomartinez714]

Another great episode from Bert Herman. So sorry for your loss.

[@jaroslawstrycharz]

Great piece as usual. Thank you. What about Old Testament upcoming Messiah prophecies?

[@DrustZapat]

I would LOVE to listen to an episode about translation!

[@donnaritch9704]

so interesting...always a fan ps Megan I love your hair (not being scholarly but just admiring you)

[@kencreten7308]

I was wondering, "what's different?" I realized it seems you two are closer to the camera? OK! On to the actual subject! heheh Thank you both.

[@swindswinds3387]

Did Jesus plan to die is a better title I guess Thank you anyway its amazing

[@Claudi333]

Great show!

[@jacobduncan2142]

I know this was recorded a while ago, but after the events at UNC yesterday, it is nice to see new content. I hope you are doing well Bart.

[@Alacritous]

huh? What happened at UNC? Edit: Oh. Right. That. Never mind.

[@jacobduncan2142]

@@Alacritous there was a shooting on campus. Came to light that a graduate student killed a professor in the Physics department. Still horribly sad.

[@kahnrad1963]

Thanks - news still hasn't reported who it was.@@jacobduncan2142

[@SusanMMaxfield]

I was so worried and wondering that myself. *sigh of relief* Maybe Bart should keep a body guard around.

[@davekelsey8762]

Glad you're safe.

[@christophergetchell6490]

A very taboo topic this makes me think of is maybe we can glean the idea of having more agency over one's own death? I have a feeling that death is one of the very difficult topics that we often need religion to address since it's unknown and probably unknowable what happens from an irreversible process. I think the absolute nature of it troubles people and we often lack the courage to plan for it and understand it beyond the additional fear that some religions create with things like "hell." I wonder if he was also simply at peace, acknowledging that he was going to die, and since he was allegedly a bit of a rabble rouser in a piece of the Roman Empire that was being run by a brutal dictator who would kill anyone who even looked like they would challenge his power. Given what's written, his death by execution was a bit of a predictable outcome. Crucifixion was the usual means it seems during those times to create a publicly humiliating and brutal death to make an example of someone who challenged the Roman authorities.

[@larryprimeau5885]

one of your best most illuminating videos

[@davidflaherty8592]

I think Bart should present an interview with the same style of glasses as Megan or vice versa. 😂 Love the podcasts too.

[@jacob1207]

Maybe next year for episode around April Fool's Day they can do that! Would be funny if Bart had big, loud glasses and Megan understated ones.

[@johnnywatkins]

Really interested in the book about ethics, I’d like to lobby for the idea that you also contrast the ethics of Jesus with the ethics of Paul in the book

[@erink3289]

Megan I can’t wait for your Mesopotamian mythology book!

[@MossyMozart]

@erink3289 - Yes! It sounds very interesting.

[@truthfinder6538]

I think Jesus must’ve hinted on his death in some occasions throughout his life time. Jesus knew he was playing a dangerous game by criticizing the religious authorities and he knew they killed previous prophets for doing so. Even though Jesus might not have known how his death will come, he sure knew that he maybe will die in the process. For instance, 2pac hinted about his death in many songs, even though he never knew he was going to get shot that soon, he sure knew that his lifestyle and provocative lyrics is liable to end his life someday.

[@stevepolanco9887]

Yes, gang life would tend to make you believe that your life may always be in jeopardy. There is very little thinking that goes into that

[@truthfinder6538]

@@stevepolanco9887 How does this contradicts what I’ve just said?

[@stevepolanco9887]

@@truthfinder6538 A gangster rapper would certainly make that claim especially if he had enemies. Bart continually makes the claim that Jesus believed the kingdom would soon come and that He and his disciples would rule. The Gospel of Mark, the first book written, makes no such claim.

[@truthfinder6538]

@@stevepolanco9887 but they knew they were doing that on their own peril, they knew the probable outcome of what their movement can lead to, so I’m sure they would some how be expecting the worst. Preaching another kingdom in a Roman kingdom is an indirect declaration of war against the Romans, also if you had read the books you just mentioned you will understand that the Jewish religious leaders knew this and they don’t want any troubles with the Romans therefore Jesus has to go.

[@stevepolanco9887]

@@truthfinder6538 Tell that to Dr. Ehrman. He specifically states that he believes that Jesus thought he would be a king. Obviously that narrative is wrong.

[@Robert_L_Peters]

Thank you

[@andycook3143]

Put me down for a copy of the book when it's ready, Megan

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

The gospel writers wrote that Jesus predicted his own death and the destruction of the temple, because the writers knew that Jesus had died and the temple was destroyed. Everything can be prophecy if the things that you are predicting have already happened.

[@user-om2os5yr6i]

Or, indeed, if you can pretend they happened and nobody from the time is alive to contradict you.

[@MikeJw-je4xk]

Exactly! The Gospels are pure mythology, Greek literature. Who wrote the greatest mythologies of all time? Greeks. The NT is pure mythology.

[@QuoteNevermore]

funny how bart ehrman has said in the past he thinks Jesus really did predict the destruction of the second temple...

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@QuoteNevermore Yeah I think he does. I read Jesus interrupted and he mentioned that if it was a prophecy it wouldn't have been that miraculous since the romans had a habit of suppressing parts of the empire that showed rebellion and Judea was quite rebellious, wanting to throw off roman rule. I think many at that time would say it was going to happen in the near future.

[@QuoteNevermore]

@bluestargalaxy9447 That's a ridiculous argument you're making. As well as for bart. To say his own disciples would witness the destruction of the temple in their lifetime and having it happen is significant. Also, to say he's going to die the next time they go to Jerusalem is significant. "Everyone dies" doesn't explain it away. Have you read or seen counter arguments to barts positions? Are there any peer reviews? Any counters? Because bart has made MANY mistakes and corrected himself or stumbled on many things. I think his desire to sell books is the goal. Not seeking truth as he claims. Or else he would openly discuss objections to his own claims. Not give answers based on his immediate audience. And let's not forget people tried to claim cyrus was written about later. Or the destruction of the temple was not really prophecied in the tabakh when the Messiah appears and declares an end to the sacrificial system.

[@WayWalker3]

The idea that someone could, or even should, atone for the stupidities and evils of others, by human blood sacrifice, is one of the most primitive that has ever been promoted. True morality is about correct thought and conduct, and minimizing harm to the world and its inhabitants. Morality is a personal choice and responsibility, and no one can truly take on the burden of such responsibility of those who either can not, or will not, take up their burden. The idea of vicarious atonement for the wrongs of others, is a truly immoral outlook.

[@madeirafonseca6383]

Deut. 24:16 shows Jesus' death accomplished nothing. John 14:13-14 shows Jesus is a liar. Go ahead, test him.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

According to the rules of the time, the one doing the sacrificing is the one doing the atoning. Since it clearly says that God is sacrificing his "only" son, it is also clear that God is the one atoning for wrong doing. So no one is taking it on for someone else. God is the wrong doer, and he sacrificed his son to atone for that wrongdoing. Simple.

[@joseburgos9654]

Apocalyptic predictions can be done by anyone through cataclysmic events. Today, we have the Global flatulence alarmists every year moving up their predictions. Jesus, and the incoming kingdom, rub the elites of his time the wrong way. It was like the elites (Pharisees and Sadducees) were jealous of the crowds and followers he captivated. We can make a parallel today with Trump. How he has unsettled the apple cart, the globalist elites. Look how many followers he has even worldwide, and people are even calling him a Savior. In my honest opinion, what we have are factions vying for control of the people., which is why both religion and government feed off each other, whether as allies or using each other as bogeymen. Jesus, whether real or not, was like a politician, a demagogue. He even delegated his messages to his disciples aka cabinet members. People ought to start thinking that they are being led to slavery, because whether it's a celestial kingdom or a one-world governance, the reality is that both are vying for control. There's no difference between celestial or world harmony; both are tyrannical concepts.

[@HkFinn83]

Given that human sacrifice seems to be a a part of almost every ancient human culture that has been studied, it’s actually a huge step forward to have a belief system in which the human sacrifice is symbolically taken on by one individual. It probably saved a lot of people’s lives as an idea.

[@derekjones57257]

When that day you stand before your creator you will know.

[@alyssapatmore2747]

It would be great to have a session with you both talking about the translation process of ancient and biblical text!

[@luismijangos7844]

Megan is so smart!!!

[@healinghumanity1782]

Thank you for the opportunity to join the discussion regarding Christianity & its founder. In my view, we can't address these important subjects till we clarify the purpose of religion or religious life. So, I would be grateful if you could share your view as to the purpose for which humanity since the dawn of history have wished religion to accomplish. Thanks.

[@moudzy1446]

I like the question at 36:32 about Jesus view of sin. Im still not clear of what was Jesus or Paul views. For example, is sin associated with not following the 10 commandments?

[@BaskingInObscurity]

Ooh, Megan, you're going to self-publish the translations? Then maybe more people will be able to afford it. Any chance you'd be publishing a trot edition? I have an old Akkadian Grammar by Riemschneider (translated again into English). Reading material would make it more fun.

[@nojam75]

I would love to hear Bart expand on the differences between Jesus's and Paul's views of sin. Do any of his writings cover that? I knew Paul had a huge influence on Christianity, but hadn't really thought about specifics. How different would Christianity be without Paul's influence?

[@MossyMozart]

@nojam75 - Would there even BE a Christian religion if it weren't for Paul's constant traveling and cheerleading to promote it and all the many letters he wrote to small groups creating a network? Maybe it should be "Paulianity".

[@nojam75]

@@MossyMozart That's a valid point. When I was raised into Christianity, I never realize how much of it came from Paul and that he never met Jesus. It certainly is Paulianity.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

@@nojam75 The biggest thing we really think came from Paul was the idea that Gentiles could become Christian without becoming Jewish and following Torah Law. The idea of salvation coming from faith in the resurrected Jesus was not something he was in conflict with the former Disciples over.

[@nojam75]

Me too! I grew up knowing Paul was convert, but somehow didn't realize he wasn't among the original disciples.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

Completely different, even known under a different name like Nazorean Judaism.

[@daniell.dingeldein9717]

so much points to him being from the essenes, born in essene central, nazareth

[@MossyMozart]

@daniell.dingeldein9717 - I have not been able to find much about the Essenes and certainly not how they would relate to Jesus. Can you suggest a website for me?

[@daniell.dingeldein9717]

there is not much of historical record about them... here's a long vid that shares some of it kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJbYopVsitV_oac

[@AlanWinterboy]

Cool, never been here live before!

[@rhondah1587]

Writing stories where the author desires to create a legend of a savior, one would expect that author to know how to invent the backstory that would create such a character and use events that correlate with certain places and people in history to make it appear realistic, put words in the character's mouth that would be appealing to a broad audience. We can see such in many legendary stories of heroes throughout history. Even the legend of King Arthur had him dying but with a promise to return and save England from its enemies. Are these writings of legendary characters based on persons who actually lived? Probably, but they can't be judged to reflect the actual reality of what they did or said in literal history.

[@ruefulradical77]

Another fine episode. I'm really glad you had a whole episode devoted to the Jesus of History. Excellent. Re Bart's answer in the questions section re. the faith of conservative scholars, I am honestly nonplussed. According to Wiki, "The two major subdivisions of Conservative Christianity within Protestantism are Evangelical Christianity and Christian Fundamentalism" which imply "biblicism", a literal interpretation. Whereas Bart says that they (most?) think that the "I am" statements in John didn't originate from Jesus. So they hold to the "authority of scripture" yet don't think Jesus claimed to be God... What is the basis of their faith if not the bible? Is it that they used to believe that way but have matured out of it but continue with the mental habit of believing because that's the most comfortable (cognitive dissonance?). [At times, I have wished I that I could return to a a position of naive faith .. rather than stark existentialism ... but I can't, and am glad for it now.] For me faith needs some pillar to stand on - that a faith disconnected from reality is a delusion. I'd really like to hear more from Bart about how these conservative scholars et al. keep alive a faith whose historical moorings have been loosed. I know this question isn't connected to the history of the New Testament but Bart has mentioned this point several times and it deserves probing though for diplomatic reasons he may not wish to go there. Anyway, thank you again for the podcasts. I look forward to every episode. Great work.

[@jonathanjordahl1681]

This is probably the most impactful of your sessions so far, despite its being more ‘in the weeds,’ as you often say. I particularly liked the way you patiently differentiated the more likely teachings of Jesus in the Synoptics from those which would help explain and resolve the seeming obstacle of his crucifixion. It helped me, as a former seminarian, to hear how you could shade past the obvious starting point of, ‘Well, no one would put this on his lips, so at least this must be authentic!’ leaving us with gospels full of such outrages as Jesus blasting a fig tree for failing to bear fruit out of season. Instead, you salvaged a reasoned narrative that brought the listener to a point where he or she was equipped to think about the question with you, asking with fresh eyes, what might the Jesus we can see from this analysis, if we accept it, have thought? What does this mean? For me and my faith? I very much liked your response to the listener question at the end, asking if this were a death-knell to Christianity, at which point you correctly distinguished that which can be known from historical and textual analysis and that which is the province of theology and transcendence. Whether and how Jesus’ death and resurrection occurred and have salvific effect may be less the province of history than of theology to some extent, but I am quite sure you will pick up the Pauline ball and have more to say about that.

[@mikehutton3937]

4:53 shows the difference between historical criticism and the real world.

[@WilliamHumphreys]

Ooh that new book sounds good

[@WilliamHumphreys]

Both do

[@gamingwithdad5774]

It seems to me that the best explanation for how Jesus ended up being “a sacrifice for our sins“ is the Roman takeover of Christianity. How else can the same people who put Jesus to death take over his movement without explaining why they HAD to put him to death?

[@rebeccaippolito912]

You nailed it!

[@sebastiantorker4930]

The reason why he died for our sins is because people want to be “babied”. They don’t like the idea of responsibility. No matter what the real cause, that clearly seems to be the motivation. And it’s easy to sell.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

When do you think the Romans took over Christianity? The sacrifice version seems to be very early - at least by the time Paul was writing and probably by the time Paul started his preachings. A time when the new religion was still small and would remain mostly ignored and occasionally persecuted by Romans for centuries to come.

[@awebuser5914]

"the Roman takeover of Christianity..." Uh, that's actually the complete _opposite_ of what transpired! At the time of the crucifixion, Jesus was a nobody, just one of many Jewish apocalyptic preachers. It took *hundreds* of years for Christianity to become a relevant force in the Roman Empire and it was hugely accelerated by the "conversion" of Constantine.

[@truthmatter9972]

That is true @@sebastiantorker4930

[@McbrideStudios]

Other Jewish prophets were saying the temple would be destroyed? Could you give some info please?

[@Ploskkky]

"Did Jesus Predict his Own Death?" Everybody can predict anyone's death. "You are going to die". There you are. A solid prediction. Success guaranteed.

[@Ploskkky]

@@jeancarroll7957 I already did. 5001 people witnessed it, and four made up a great story about it. I mean, four wrote it down truthfully, exactly as it happened. Scout's honor, because people never lie, and never make shit up ever.

[@madeirafonseca6383]

If Jesus was "God" he wouldn't "predict" his death; he would announce, or proclaim, his death. By the way, he tried to weasel out of it in Matthew 26. Why didn't he say, "Hey Dad, you let Isaac off the hook, so WTF?"

[@scambammer6102]

@@madeirafonseca6383 jesus was his own grampa

[@madeirafonseca6383]

@@scambammer6102Jesus did a farewell tour with Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, and The Tooth Fairy.

[@francissreckofabian01]

He sacrificed His life for our sins. But, then, a couple of days He was resurrected! Doesn't that make His sacrifice pointless?

[@sebastiantorker4930]

Of course it’s pointless. 6 million Jews had to die because of that crappy idea.

[@HebaruSan]

Another book! We are lucky that Bart has the ability and opportunity to keep producing such works!

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

Yes

[@sollen123]

Me too worried. So much violence.

[@lifelinesoutreach]

YES

[@michapolanski5096]

Some of this, whatever Bart thinks, is good reconstruction of the endless ball play of "theology". We "know" so little = endless playing field. We neeed to come up with new God and new playing field, at least it might be interesting anew.

[@barrymoore4470]

It's clear that Jesus was a failed apocalyptic prophet. The emphasis on the imminent end of time in the original followers' lifetimes that is preserved in the New Testament is an enduring and fundamental liability to those texts' worth as standards of truth. So Jesus was predicting a lot of things, but got a lot of those things wrong. This in itself negates a lot of the Christian theology that has developed over the last two millennia.

[@kellyclifton5455]

If we can date Mark after the temple's destruction, due to the author's knowledge of the event, which he presumably backdated as prophecy, isn't it a mistake to state that Jesus assumed these events would unfold and thus included them in his ministry?

[@bobbybailey4623]

When Jesus went into the temple, he knew they would try to kill him. However, he had prepared for every eventuality and managed to survive it all.

[@johndutchman]

I see that Mucha.

[@kencusick6311]

Bart asked, Why did Jesus go to Jerusalem? According to the synoptic gospels he’d only preached in Galilee. He gives a reasonable possibility. Here’s a very different way of explaining why. Apocalyptic cults have a problem. The apocalypse never comes. A groups cohesiveness, based on an apocalyptic belief, slowly becomes frayed when it doesn’t happen. This puts pressure on the leader of the group to do something to show events are moving in the apocalyptic direction. While we don’t know the group dynamics, we can infer the stresses within the group; Peter’s denial and Judas’ betrayal. Also the passionate faith in Jesus; the group’s coherence remains after his death. The specific dynamics leading to Jerusalem are unknowable but once there, he creates a small riot in the poor section outside the temple wall. He and the apostles hide for a while. Again the group dynamic stressors that led to Jerusalem come to the fore. maybe Jesus talks about his death. It would have been hanging over their heads while hiding. He’s betrayed and arrested and we know the rest. Sort of.

[@mjt532]

What other Jewish prophets said the (2nd) Temple was going to be destroyed?

[@billeib427]

A young Jewish male believer, preaching the words of the father, has had attributed to him, a civilization building philosophy. A collection of Comments, remarks, teachings, etc. Most orbited the "Golden Rule." Some offered some clarity to those searching for meaning and a way of life.

[@scambammer6102]

golden rule predates jesus by 2500 years

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@@scambammer6102 ..."but I say to you, love your enemies" does not.

[@scambammer6102]

@@jamesboswellii2034 jesus sends everyone who doesn't worship him to hell

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@@scambammer6102 Actually, it's not that simple if you emphasize Jesus' earlier sayings as found in Q, in Mark, and in those sayings in Matthew and Luke that lfit in well with Q and Mark. A startling example: "...everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven...[Q}" -- which Jesus may have intended to mean that even the Council who condemned him to death might soon be among those in Isaiah 53 who (as Jesus was expecting) would see the servant lifted up before the eyes of all the world in the lifetime of that generation ("you will see..". Mark 14:62) and realize that he had died even for them.. That didn't happen then, but what an expectation!

[@scambammer6102]

@@jamesboswellii2034 sure if you ignore most of the NT, reinterpret ambiguous phrases, and invent sources that don't exist you can make that argument lol.

[@josephtaylor4405]

What exactly is the new covenant? God is very specific about his laws in the old testament.

[@user-xl7zx1vm2n]

Are large round spectacles in fashion?

[@dianadeejarvis7074]

Things that look good on you are always in fashion.

[@Lawfair]

I am looking forward to a book of Mesopotamian fairy tales. edit: corrected a spelling error

[@AnnNunnally]

Me too! I love reading ones that are new to me.

[@nikolakrcic1021]

You, I, and All will see at the moment of death that there's nothing "fairytale" about God, his church, and the history in the bible.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Did you miss an "s"?

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@nikolakrcic1021 No we won't.

[@AnnNunnally]

@@nikolakrcic1021 Did you listen to the video? Our comments have nothing to do with the bible.

[@DaltonJaxon]

First. Was waiting for this!

[@robindesbois1551]

My little rational computer couldn't understand how can God die? How a bunch of soldiers defeated God ?

[@seoigh]

apropos of absolutely nothing, your hair looks great in this one, Megan

[@roadracer1584]

At least she didn't dye her hair bright orange or blue. Megan definitely craves attention which explains her nose rings, multi-colored hair, and tattoos. Most teenagers grow out of this attention seeking phase.

[@seoigh]

@@roadracer1584 Boo, Josh and Megan are a super cute couple.

[@roadracer1584]

@@seoigh Megan will outgrow her adolescent rebellious phase as we all do.

[@seoigh]

@@roadracer1584 I bet you're fun at parties

[@roadracer1584]

@@seoigh Sure. I chill and have a good time.

[@Gaming_Vegan_Ape]

I'm going to die sooner or later. I, too, predicted my death. 😁

[@user-om2os5yr6i]

See, but you _exist_ . He _might_ have existed, but without evidence to suggest it. Undoubtedly dozens of cults were started by Yeshuas of the time, but none we can actually connect to the one that survived; the one that survived did not need to be started by a Yeshua, and could more easily have been Cephas telling stories about a Yeshua where nobody could contradict him. Second issue is whether, presuming he did exist, we know literally anything about anything he said. All we have are the gospels (dozens of them! then a selection of those picked out for political reasons a century later to call canon) that are transparently fictional, with most supposed events in Mark traceable directly to a remark in Paul not involving a Jesus. Is anything in any gospel based on an actual incident? Maybe? But no reason to think so. So it's a meaningless question. Did whoever invented Jesus want us to think he predicted his own death? Should we care what they wanted us to think?

[@stevepolanco9887]

You’re missing the point that Bart is making. He said that Jesus never made that claim.

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@@stevepolanco9887 Yes, Bart does say that, but I do not agree. Here's an article I'm writing for The Pantagraph of Bloomington-Normal, intended to appear September 22. Did Jesus Predict his Death? James Boswell I AM IN STRONG AGREEMENT with prominent New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman when he states that the Gospel of Mark accurately portrays a Jesus who grew up in Nazareth living a normal life along with family, friends, and neighbors who, like him, were unaware that he would eventually be regarded by many as the Messiah. But I must disagree with Ehrman for his failing to see that Jesus’ revelatory experience at his baptism set off in him a fierce spiritual struggle (“temptation”) when it suddenly seemed clear to Jesus that he was both the Spirit-anointed messianic son of God and the Isaian servant whom God had chosen to suffer a world-redeeming sacrificial death which neither he nor any of his contemporaries had ever expected to threaten the Messiah. Jesus’ struggle to accept that devastating revelation is reflected in Mark 1:12-13 and in his anguished cry at Mark 8:33, and although Mark’s Jesus thereafter repeatedly told his disciples that he was going to have to die, and even warned them that they would risk losing their chance for eternal life if they should prove unwilling to die with him (8:35), yet soon after his last supper Jesus himself went through an agonizing struggle as he begged his heavenly Father not to require of him the very sacrificial death he believed to be God’s “will” for him (14:36; note Isaiah 53:10). Ehrman and many other scholars continue insisting that it was not Jesus himself but later church leaders who fabricated the idea that Jesus believed he was going to have to die. I, however, cannot imagine that the author of Mark, after repeatedly reporting Jesus’ willingness to die, could have composed a scene in which Jesus suffered long moments of conflict regarding his heavenly Father’s will - unless it actually happened and was reported by those three disciples who were nearest Jesus as he was praying in Gethsemane (Mark 14:35). Thus, I cannot agree with those scholars who contend that Jesus’ predictions of a redemptive death did not derive from Jesus himself, for however we may understand the reason for his anguished struggle in Gethsemane, it is not the stuff of legend, but of harsh reality. ________ Boswell is a retired pastor of The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) now living in Normal, Illinois. His further thinking on this subject may be explored in his You Tube video series, “Jesus Laid Bare - Imagined Conversations with Jesus.”

[@user-om2os5yr6i]

@@stevepolanco9887 We have no record of anything he claimed or didn't, or even if he ever claimed anything. So Bart has no point to make. The theology seems to require a messiah to have been killed, so any stories promoted would need to include that. It would not need for him to predict it, but everybody involved would know that was necessary to the prophesized plan. Somebody actually dying was optional: the story was essential, the fact not.

[@vxenon67]

Can you predict the how and when? Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection; but other Prophets hundreds of years back predicted Jesus' death and the manner of how and his life.

[@Monedgar123]

What records? Is there a court record? Honestly I don’t think the gospels count as a record of much. What corroboration do we have?

[@akbar339]

When the person on the cross cried out loud " "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me", this clearly its not Jesus who died on the cross. It was the guy, who belief on Judaism and against the Jesus teachings. When he cried out to god, he was referring to God in Judaism. If it was really Jesus, being a prophet or son of god as claimed by christian, on the cross, is he going to cry the same? Sound like he was regretted for God to allow this happening on him. For fighting against Jesus, the guy died and humiliated (half naked) until today on the cross.

[@SergeantSkeptic686]

Since the latest gun murder at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, I'll prophesy Megan Lewis (British) will ask Bart Ehrman (American) to explain why American Law allow homicidal maniacs to purchase as many guns and as much ammunition as they want. Megan Lewis will politely listen and think to herself, _that's totally insane._

[@badonlikoy5571]

It's up to us whether you believe it or not. That is our own beliefs. And at the end of the day we will know the truth if we died.

[@naysneedle5707]

Unless of course our consciousness ends with our brain activity.

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@@naysneedle5707 Bruce Greyson in his book "After" suggests that the brain is a sort of filter that actually limits consciousness until it can't, and then some surprisingly remarkable things are sometimes experienced.

[@naysneedle5707]

@@jamesboswellii2034 Consciousness is the filter for the brain. I expect dying must be pretty trippy as everything stops working. But near-death experiences can never show that our consciousness continues to exist after brain activity ceases altogether. You'd need to demonstrate the existence of all the disembodied consciousnesses or you'd just be making yet another an unfalsifiable supernatural claim. I'd be surprised if no one has claimed that dark matter is the consciousnesses lol.

[@petrairene]

Or, did they write something into it later that hinted that he supposedly precicted his own death... I mean, these texts are highly manipulated.

[@ikr9358]

All of the authors knew how he died. It would be pretty easy to write in predictions after the fact.

[@scambammer6102]

@@ikr9358 they are all telling the same story with different details

[@roadracer1584]

Awesome tattoo. Where did you have the work done? Also, your glasses look like swimming goggles.

[@laythadrian5705]

I don’t think the prophecies in the Bible were things he actually said but I do think at the very least Jesus must have talked about the possibility of him dying and then being resurrected

[@ikr9358]

I'm just a lyperson, but I don't think Jewish people had much of a belief in resurrection, though. It is possible that Jesus believed and thought that he would die, since that was a common outcome for people who proselytized against the Romans. As Dr. Ehrman has argued, it is most likely that it wasn't until after he died and his disciples saw visions of Jesus did they start believing that he was resurrected.

[@jonnylumberjack6223]

Why would he think that? There is no basis to think that anyone would predict that.

[@julianhe7348]

​@@ikr9358apocalyptic jews did in deed believe in a bodily resurrection at the end of days. They expected this to happen as soon as the messiah appers and establishes the kingdom of God. Indeed Jews believe that until this very day. However no one expected the messiah to be killed by the enemies of God and then resurrect.

[@livrowland171]

As far as I know the idea that people would die and one day be bodily resurrected by God (as is still claimed in Christian theology) was an idea that was around at the time, so maybe he was thinking of that, if anything? I doubt he personally felt he had a mission to die and be raised for people's sins. No one in his day thought that was the Messiah's job.

[@user-om2os5yr6i]

​@@livrowland171 Dying and being resurrected was the messiah's whole job. They needed a blood sacrifice to end all blood sacrifices, as Paul explains. Did all Jews think so? There was literally nothing all Jews thought, just like today. Anything you can imagine, though, somebody did. But the Christian conceit evidently had legs. We can only speculate what that cult promoted; nothing like what it came to promote later, anyway, judging by how thoroughly everything early (excepting only fragments of Paul's letters) was torched.

[@ubermod5564]

I enjoy these podcasts and Bart's teaching style in particular, but I found this episode to be too cursory for such a major topic. I know it's only meant to be an overview, but too much time spent here on overview and chat, and very little meat on the bones of the positions Bart states on this topic, which is a shame. Some topics should be split in two I think.

[@dolyharianto]

Jesus specifically stated He is the Son of Man in the synoptic Gospels in his trial before the Sanhedrin, and the reaction from the high priest accusing Jesus of blasphemy and tearing his own robe is telling enough that Jesus is declaring himself as God.

[@stevepolanco9887]

So are we to surmise that the author of Mark was the first to create the narrative that Jesus knew he would die and the later authors followed suit?

[@littlebitofhope1489]

They all were well aware of Roman law. Jesus knew he was breaking Roman law, and that is was an executable offense. If you engage in that type of behavior and expect to live, you are delusional, especially during those times. The idea that he would have thought he would not die would be remarkable. Thinking he would die is just an OF COURSE YOU ARE. We are talking about Romans here.

[@jamesboswellii2034]

You could say that. Or you could say that Mark was accurately reporting what the earliest followers of Jesus remembered him actually saying. And when it came to Jesus' apocalyptic expectations, Matthew to a somewhat small degree, Luke to a larger degree, and John to a very large degree toned down the immediacy of what Mark's Jesus was expecting.

[@scambammer6102]

everybody dies, so it's a pretty safe call

[@scambammer6102]

@@jamesboswellii2034 you can say whatever you want, having evidence for it is a completely different thing.

[@stevepolanco9887]

@@littlebitofhope1489 Then are you saying Ehrman is wrong? He thinks Jesus told his disciples that the kingdom would come in their lifetime and that He would be the ruling king.

[@ThroneofDavid8]

Does Jesus still have His voice?

[@qwertyvypez]

How do I input a question for a future episode? I want to know why Bart thinks Paul and the historical Jesus taught different things. Surely Paul would have known more about Jesus than Bart does (since he knew some of the apostles) and he would have believed his teachings were consistent with what Jesus taught? Is Bart saying Paul was wrong and teachings weren't consistent with Jesus' teachings, does he think Paul was given wrong information about Jesus' teachings, or is there some other reason Bart thinks this.

[@jamesboswellii2034]

In Romans chapter twelve, although Paul is not directly quoting Jesus, Paul's descriptions of how followers in Jesus should comport themselves even toward wicked opponents sounds much like what Jesus teaches in the Sermon on the Mount.

[@666izzy]

Bart did a video on this a few weeks ago. It's at kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHOximCiZ92GmtE

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@qwertyvypez To say that Paul did not teach what Jesus taught seems a little strange. Look at the twelth chapter of Romans where Paul describes how believers in Jesus should live. He is not quoting Jesus directly, yet much that Paul writes there sounds a lot like what Jesus said in Matthew's version of The Sermon on the Mount. Also, if Jesus actually said what is in Mark 10:45, that sounds like what Paul said in different ways Also, Paul actually quotes Jesus saying something very similar at "the Lord's supper" (1 Corinthians 11-25; compare Mark 14:22-24). That is the only place where Paul actually quotes something Jesus said before his death, and Paul would not have bothered to talk about that if the Corinthian church had not made a travesty out of their observance of the supper.

[@qwertyvypez]

@666izzy I don't think Bart answered my question there, as I think he focuses more on the differences with what Paul and Bart say. I think it's clear Paul's theology has differences with Jesus' but I'm sure Paul believed his theology was still consistent with what Jesus said despite the differences. If I'm wrong do you mind pointing to me where Paul addresses my question please?

[@qwertyvypez]

@@jamesboswellii2034 I'll check out those passages

[@aaronshropshire8552]

👍

[@dikitdikitkomen87]

20:00

[@sunnyjohnson992]

Jesus knew before coming to earth that he would have to die to redeem mankind; that was foretold since Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden. Long before he came to the earth, Isaiah foretold what would happen. “He will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death.” (Isaiah 53:9) When he died, he was impaled between two robbers. (Matthew 27:57-60) Later, Joseph of Arimathea laid Jesus’ body in his own new quarried tomb. (Matthew 27:38) Jesus’ death provided the ransom so that the burden of sin can be lifted from all faithful people. (Isaiah 53:11; Romans 4:25)

[@timcarbone007]

Amazing

[@dolliscrawford280]

It is my belief that Jesus' life is what brought salvation to us. How he lived was an example of how to live and look at your lot in life. What was later called The Way. He died because the rich and powerful saw this belief as a way to take their power and wealth. Salvation was possible without but Jesus and God saw what was coming. That is why I believe in the resurrection.

[@Redtornado6]

How do you know that tho

[@dubsar]

You don't have to be a prophet to know what would happen with political agitators with socialist and libertarian views in Roman occupied territories.

[@TheSoteriologist]

Starts at 2:52.

[@messianicjewPhd2023]

Bart, while I agree with you about the defining elements of resurrection vs. resuscitation, the issue about people who die later do not enter Heaven or Paradise. But remember as the Bible teaches that when Mashiach Yeshua was on the cross and one of the thieves on the cross decided that Yeshua was a righteous Ravi and asked him to allow him to go to Paradise with him. Yeshua told him that he would 'be in Paradise' with him that day. So, unless, you can prove otherwise about Yeshua's statement, it must stand. Blessings to you and your studies.

[@scambammer6102]

if he resuscitated then where did ho go after that

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@@r0ky_M Luke's version of the one believing thief is probably not historical. Note that Mark and Matthew only give one quote that Jesus spoke from the cross, and it is omitted by both Luke and John in favor of other sayings.

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@@r0ky_M That's just the point. According to the two earliest gospels Jesus loudly cried out one thing and one thing only shortly before he died on the cross. And he cried that one thing in Aramaic (Eloi, Eloi) which caused someone present to think he was calling Eliyah (Elijah) to come and take him down.. All the other words from the cross attributed to Jesus in Luke and in John may not be historical, including possibly even Jesus' "Father, forgive them..." which does not appear in some older, better manuscripts of Luke.

[@jamesboswellii2034]

@@r0ky_M Q and Mark less so. 🙂

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

👏🙂

[@nickagunter]

Jesus was basically “TWO MORE WEEKS” before it was cool

[@DasWortwurdeFleisch]

Did Jesus predict the simultaneous crucifiction of Ezekiel ? „And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.” And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow, and he said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation.”“ ‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭41‬-‭46‬ „For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.“ ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭17‬ „He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.“ ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭24‬-‭26‬ „For I will surely save you, and you shall not fall by the sword, but you shall have your life as a prize of war, because you have put your trust in me, declares the Lord.’”“ ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭39‬:‭18‬ „And do you seek great things for yourself? Seek them not, for behold, I am bringing disaster upon all flesh, declares the Lord. But I will give you your life as a prize of war in all places to which you may go.”“ ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭45‬:‭5 „Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.“ ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53‬:‭12‬ „For I tell you,none of those ❗️men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’”“ ‭‭Luke‬ ‭14‬:‭24‬

[@eladdad]

Pedantic and divisive: I really hate how Bart switched from saying Palestine to Israel :(

[@KristinaIsUpset]

when it relates to the time of jesus, palestine is a geographic term and israel is a sociopolitical term that refer to the same location. hope that helps

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Ehrman Misquoting Jesus as usual!

[@controversial1994]

What I find inexplicable is how it is possible that Jesus never repeated any of the things he ever said?

[@user-om2os5yr6i]

To say anything at all, he would have had to _exist_ . He can be claimed to have said _anything_ after everybody who could say whether he existed was long dead.

[@DeconvertedMan]

"Hey guys I'm gonna get killed watch!" - does a bunch of stuff to anoy everyone in power. *gets put on cross* "SEE?! Haha... blargh!"

[@DeconvertedMan]

@@MikeJJJ Jesus predicted all sorts of events, but only if you read it with the super secret code that I've unlocked! Find out these super mega secrets for the low low price of 99.95!

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

10:25 It's such a stretch of the text to think that John is claiming Jesus is God. This is maybe the single biggest blunder i've ever seen in Ehrman's exegesis. Because of it now his thought that John is inauthentic to the historical Jesus is strengthened. Though there are definitely great scholars that understood that John's Jesus is not portraying himself as God (who would be his own Father and symbolic "origin" in the narrative), until this is understood and accepted in the broader academic world, there us going to be *far* less progress into gleaning the historical Jesus because John will be excluded or ever so poorly mined! (John 20:31 is probably *the* definitive purpose statement of Johns author. To leave his gospel believing something other than these two things about the identity of Jesus, like believing he's pre-existent all-powerful God or a million billion year old "divine being", would be to ignore Johns purpose statement entirely)

[@patricialauriello3805]

The more I read his work, the more I believe this guy is the hack of all biblical scholars.

[@philswaim392]

To me theologically, i cannot believe something if it isnt factual. If jesus is inaccurately represented in scripture, i simply cannot believe in it especially.if hes supposed to be a god perfect all knowing and all powerful. I was raised a fundamentalist and so i probably think about this far too literally but it just is practical that i dont base my life on text and materials that arent grounded in reality. And certainly dont develop a religious or spiritual affinity towards something like that

[@mohamedelmathil1277]

If Jesus new he was going to die why was he praying for the cup to pass from him?

[@Paul-zz1cr]

Maybe he was just a naughty boy. 😂

[@shahirnaga4507]

Even if Jesus predicted his death, doesn't that make it ungodly, to die by committing suicide?