Did John Ever Actually Betray Dutch?

[@CynicGTA]

Short version…not really. What do you think?

[@RamonRed-pg3ln]

Make a video about alberto fusar

[@DawnFeather960]

In Dutch's eyes, John has betrayed him. In the mission Country Pursuits if you slow down while riding and hear all the dialouge as you ride to Lakay. Dutch states, "I swear the woman is poisoning him against me." In Chapter 4, Dutch thinks Abagail is poisoning John against him so he doesn't blame John yet or he simply doesn't want to. It's only after Chapter 5 that Dutch is sure that John was the right. A Kind and Benevolent Despot reveals that Dutch is seriously considering John as a rat and in Chapter 6, he's certain that John is a right evident by when he states, "...And when springing John brings the law down on us again then what Arthur?" Dutch viewed John as loyal through Chapter 1-4 and disloyal through chapters 5-6. There is even a camp dialogue where Dutch questions John about how the pinkertons knew about the bank job in Saint Denis. On a final note, in Just a Social Call Dutch says, "Well Molly clearly talked but who else?" meaning Dutch and Micah were set on their being a second rat. I'm not sure if thinking John was the rat benefited Micah so I think it was Dutch who said John was the rat and Micah being a yes man agreed with him.

[@osibald2342]

i think you make horrible red dead 2 clickbait videos for views cause you bring nothing new to the table in terms of red dead 2 content

[@molythegamingdog]

@@osibald2342 nuh uh

[@theimperialist2686]

No John like Arthur, never betrayed Dutch. It was Dutch's ego, and willingly allowing Micah to manipulate him by acting as a yes man, that things became so bad. Even if that weren't the case, you have Hosea who knew what Dutch was like and challenged him on his decisions.

[@justsomeguy747]

Arthur and John did conspire behind Dutch’s back by expressing considerable doubts about him and desiring to steal his money. Granted, Dutch cared little about them but still I can see why he would be angry at them. Then again they witnessed him betraying his ideals by being a hypocrite making them become disillusioned with him and additionally, that alone caused them to think for themselves, of what and who they should be loyal to

[@GraighSoul]

@@justsomeguy747Very true, however, they only contemplated it if things got that bad. But they never outwardsly did it, hence the feeling of betrayal.

[@josephstalin2606]

@@justsomeguy747 Very true a lot of people don’t acknowledge this because “going for the money” is considered low honor and therefore not “canon” but even with high honor Arthur and John still talk about stealing the money. So they betrayed Dutch in spirit but not actually

[@TonyG8992]

There are many signs that Dutch was playing everyone like a fiddle, even Micah. Micah was good at kissing his ass, and acting he was loyal, but people all blame Micah for everything, the Blackwater massacre, The Saint Denis bank, Dutch’s downfall, when all the blame is goes to Dutch. Sure it was Micah’s idea and encouragement, Dutch had no reason to murder Heidi McCourt, everyone said that wasn’t like Dutch to do that. Same goes for Saint Denis, Micah was also getting shot the damn Gatling gun. Micah always had some sort of agenda but he clearly betrayed the gang AFTER Fleeting Joy. Truth of the matter is, Dutch fucked over everyone, even Micah in the epilogue. IMO Dutch was the true antagonist of Red Dead 2

[@RaymondBrown-lf4nw]

@@justsomeguy747 I wouldn’t call it a betrayal. At that point Dutch had already left John behind and had been openly accusing them of being traitors. He also began to constantly dismiss and disrespect Arthur.

[@fernandom.varela1109]

John was betrayed by Dutch twice and he stayed in the gang because he didn't have anything else to go or because he didn't want to leave Arthur alone

[@paco680]

It's exactly like Sadie said: The Dutch who put a blanket on me after the O'Driscolls wasn't the same Dutch from Beaver Hollow

[@jacobloft3898]

I agree more with John’s perspective. “You see a man who changed. I see a man who got found out…for who he truely was.”

[@paco680]

@@jacobloft3898 True, and that's because John knew Dutch for way longer than Sadie...but even her who was pretty new in the gang saw that Dutch wasn't the same

[@Steel-101]

I believe one of the best scenes in the game is how furious John was with Dutch: “You left me!!” Poor guy felt so betrayed and the voice actor nailed that line. The love of money 💵 💰 destroys all. Plus Dutch is blind because I put so much cash in that blasted box but nooooo: “good job Arthur but we need more money!!”

[@ВладиславБулаев-л3э]

It was never about the money for Dutch. It was about continuing this outlaw lifestyle, being "free" from any limits society imposed on him. This sick idea of "freedom" kept him going till the end...

[@Gabriel-ki7uj]

​@@ВладиславБулаев-л3э yeah he never truly wanted to retire to Tahiti he wanted his way of life to continue indefinently

[@alum202]

The tithering box was really just for the camp maintenance, that's what they said themselves when it came to the box. It makes sense, because ever noticed where the "gang's share" money actually goes to? It goes to their actual savings. The tithering box is only there for the maintenance and upgrading of the camp.

[@Steel-101]

@@alum202 yeah but even after you fully upgrade the camp, it doesn’t make any sense. I can’t really nitpick this because at some point video game logic comes in. You can’t take everything seriously. Obviously not everything is gonna be realistic

[@alum202]

@@Steel-101 Of course, but I noticed that detail in my second playthrough, that it was specifically for camp upgrades, and not for the actual savings in there. It's why if say, Micah gives 25 dollars to the camp, he says he has "kept everyone fed". It's just a misconception i have noticed from other players. Why it doesn't also become part of the actual gang savings is beyond me, but I suppose it's to not have the game end prematurely because they have accumulated that much money. Sure, secret ending would be cool, but that's really it.

[@wtf27pl12]

What if Dutch shot Micah not because of this shame about Arthur's death but because he realized that Arthur words that Micah was a rat made a lot of sense when he looked at it and Micah would probaly sell out Dutch like he did to the gang 8 years earlier

[@nidhoggr8193]

I think it's a mix of both. If you notice, Dutch gets visibly upset when Arthur is brought up. Specifically, when Micah says, "Arthur's been dead a long time!!" As Micah says this Dutch looks at him with a look of frustration and pain, ending with a look of fury before he gets back his composer and looks back at John. It's difficult to see this because of John's camera angle but you can see it if you look closely.

[@josephstalin2606]

@@nidhoggr8193 Dutch looks at Micah every time he speaks it’s not specific to that one line. Plus if you shoot Micah while negotiating then Dutch still shoots you regardless

[@merkingsavage6045]

​@@josephstalin2606John asked dutch what he was doing and dutch said same as you I suppose. He was there to help john and was only aiming at him coz dutch wasn't sure if john was there to kill him too

[@josephstalin2606]

@@merkingsavage6045 No he was there to kill Micah, not to help John. He didn’t care about John anymore by that point and only kills Micah for himself but not to help John. This is also why Dutch had no problem trying to kill John later in RDR1 too or letting his new gang do the work for him. John didn’t even know Dutch was there either so it’s not like Dutch was aiming in defense of himself either

[@martinford4553]

Something thats just come to me watching John coming back to camp is Bill's confused "John?" Bill would have followed Dutch to the end until this, i think this is what turned Bill into who he is in RDR, it broke him completely knowing the man who put his hope and trust into can betray one of his own "sons." He eventually realised that to Dutch he was just a tool and a servant just like John and Arthur, and like them Dutch would sacrifice him if he even sensed disloyalty(real or not). In a way Arthur's sacrifice saved Bill and Javier from Dutch's influence but they couldnt leave the life of crime behind.

[@rauhau_]

dutch started it like john said in american venom

[@RyanTheDark]

No, Dutch's ego just didn't allow him to move on. If Hosea, Lenny, and Sean (if he actually saw through him) survived, Dutch would have taken any opportunity to leave them behind as well. Hosea wasn't perfect but he tried. Lenny and Hosea both saw through Dutch for a while. Eventually, Arthur and John too. Heidi McCourt did as well. Dutch never changed.

[@Midnight-q6h]

Well i mean Dutch was actually able to see THROUGH Hiedi McCourt

[@paco680]

So I guess not even Hosea or Lenny could have stopped him to completely destroy the gang, just because he was so selfish and stubborn

[@danonyt1611]

Heidi McCourt??? Do u mean Molly O’Shea?? Heidi McCourt was the lady Dutch shot on the ferry in coldblood, a civilian.

[@chibisayori20]

@@danonyt1611 she was a WITNESS, she was gonna tell the law about it

[@justsomeguy747]

John still respected Dutch for raising him. He still had painful memories of him though which is why he was so conflicted. With Bill and Javier, he was also very conflicted and tried to peacefully capture them despite his commitment to his family, but with Dutch it was far more complex, especially considering how Dutch saved John from Micah and allowed him to fulfil one of John’s biggest goals - killing the man who betrayed the gang and do right by Arthur as Arthur would’ve also hunted Micah down if he lived, but he would discourage John from doing so himself.

[@danielallen6178]

John was like Arthur. You can see it in St Denis. 'Never should'a gonna gone after Bronte Dutch!' John never actually betrayed him, he did what needed to be done just like Arthur did. But he saw the truth

[@Itskrystaaal]

Yeah John and Arthur were just bold enough to speak up. Telling the truth/speaking their mind to Dutch = Betraying him when someone like Micah were just a yes man

[@matthewrobinson2831]

Dutch betrayed Dutch by turning on the Arthur and John and Charles. The ones who actually tried to save the gang from going head first into a car wreck.

[@MrMonkeylawyer]

Dutch recognized the error in his ways when shot Micah. But look at how he looked at john afterwards. If wasn't for ross, marston would've left Dutch alone.

[@lydenvanhollebeke8888]

I think Hosea dying really threw Dutch over the edge his best friend his brother sort of like after Arthur died and all John cared about was revenge even though that was unlike him. Losing someone you care about that much turns a man into something else someone who’s looking to take their anger out on someone

[@ItsBoiSerey]

john was acting strange around Dutch because he saw his change

[@maximusd26]

no way i've finished ghost of tsushima about 1 month ago and just ended read dead 2 and you consistently provide awesome content for both, great channel discovery thx

[@CynicGTA]

Thank you! Dont think vids on those games are going to stop, at least not anytime soon. Excited for the branch out by the end of this year tho👀

[@orangeville1978]

The short answer is no. John didn't betray Dutch, Dutch betrayed both him and Arthur.

[@nurgle-j5n]

you just saved everybody several minutes

[@Poja_0811]

I know it doesn't have anything to do with the video but when i play rdr 1 i use revolvers as john and a pistol as jack, idk why but it feels kinda fitting

[@kevinschofieldjr.9927]

Micah told Dutch to leave John and he told Dutch to leave Arthur when the O’Driscolls captured Arthur so basically Micah suggested a parlay with Colm O’Driscoll to kidnap and kill Arthur because if Pearson knew only about it in the mission Blessed are the peacemakers then how would Micah know where the location was and Micah told Dutch that Arthur would find his way back

[@user-fh5zb6bu4b]

Can u do a vid on what if jack marston got shipped to italy instead of going to bronte

[@CountHasting]

I like to see John's of loyalty as a loyalty to Arthur not dutch

[@nicholas2153]

1:47 Pause here, a fuckin' bird falls out of the sky

[@dimlightbulb10]

that's a leaf

[@Xiiki]

John didn’t betray Dutch, Dutch betrayed John

[@badassuchiha4875]

I liked Dutch a very Smart & Level Headed dude a Leader until Chapter 6 Annabelle dying & the Deaths of Mac, Jenny, Davey just put him down this Path Hosea was the Last Straw

[@PremoSaysThings]

Your output on videos is incredibly inspiring cynic

[@fredanderson7728]

It's true John left the gang for a year and pissed off the gang when he was eventually allowed to return. John's questionable loyalty was brought up upon his return and after multiple tense exchanges as well as John's actions and the problems Dutch causes, it slowly becomes clear John is loyal to the gang. I gotta admit during RDR2 and RDR John's sense of loyalty is adamant even if it is misplaced or lost at times.

[@huntergreene4344]

14:26 I had a GODDAMN PLAN! *Shakes eagle flies hand*

[@davidsummers5203]

John was betrayed. He's was loyal to what mattered.

[@SKinetic-Zsword]

What john really betrayed was shooting uncle in undead njghtmare

[@cutekenny2772]

I think John didn’t want to kill Dutch because he raised him and Arthur

[@sillygigglzYT]

Dutch betrayed all of them. Simple. Nothing that John or even Arthur have done can be really considered as betrayal, I mean, minus John chasing after Dutch in RDR1... But still, John even with half a brain knew more about loyalty than Dutch ever did.

[@Klausinator451]

20:53 Dutch certainly did "go down" on his own terms.

[@papaperc522]

Liked and subscribed. If you’re still making RDR content I’ll follow you into the depths of hell itself!

[@CynicGTA]

Oh, dont you worry. I still got a few RDR vids coming!

[@papaperc522]

@@CynicGTA Thank you! Keep up the excellent work! We all appreciate you!

[@jesperson_2003]

Hey man. Love these vids. Ive been hooked the past few days.

[@steventhawe1598]

I cried when John proposed to Abigail

[@ivanhunter6492]

no. If anything, he betrayed himself

[@cb-9938]

John was just as Loyal as Arthur. But he knew Abigail and Jack would be killed or captured if Dutch didn't stop. And unlike Arthur he still had time too make things better Dutch say John's love and concern for his family as disloyalty. Because that means Dutch isn't #1

[@omarragab7491]

i would LOVE for you to do the uncharted series soon as i believe that the amount of depth and exploration that you can go into especially when the games characters take center stage and the adventures are more of a backdrop it would definitely be fun and intriguing to see you analyze them

[@CynicGTA]

Im currently running through them right now. Fingers crossed i can start making videos on it soon. But, i wanna do the series justice and i have a few other videos/games to wrap up like the mafia series. But uncharted is definitely coming!

[@badassuchiha4875]

John was Happy under Dutches regime he showed everyone a good face that he really was but Dutch dramatic Decline is cause Micahs manipulation(which Worked) especially the 2 Enforcers Arthur & Hosea death made em Crazy but as John said Dutch genuinely did Save him & liked em until everything went downhill Oh, also.... Dutch likes Sadie cause she reminded him of Jenny Kirk she prob fought for a Ideal too

[@Poke-ladd]

Dutch did abandon John but John and Arthur did make that whole plan to take some money off the gang

[@lionelmessi102393]

Every time Cynic is on you listen!

[@Roller.Mobster117]

Imma guess the next Ghost of Tsushima video is going to be about...Tenzo?

[@teruuuuuuu]

I can't be the only one to think that john was so stupid for getting revenge, arthur sacrifice himself gave his last breaths to john and his family to go out and live a peaceful life but john didn't give a fuck and went for micah. I GET IT, i really do but it's not an excuse to trow away all the efforts that arthur did for john and his family. Abigail died 3 years after johns dead probably just because she was so depressed and jack went to the life of the gunslinger, all because john couldn't keep sit the fuck down in his house with his family. In the end john didn't respect arthurs final wish and that's sad.

[@sealake7935]

Dutch destroyed himself

[@alexanderblum9882]

I think Arthur’s grudge towards John leaving was coming from a good place and from Dutch it was a bad place. If Arthur’s holding a grudge about unity, Dutch probably is too.

[@garrettneukam2588]

Babe wake up, new Cynic RDR2 video analysis

[@Starsixsixtysix]

I just played RDR1 for the first time since like 2012 and just got past the part where you finally catch bill. I noticed that you said the only time you had a choice between sparing or killing was with Javier. But when I caught bill I couldn’t decide what to do and eventually Reyes shoots the Mexican president and bill stands up to give himself up. Unfortunately for him that’s when I decided I wasn’t letting him live. But it seemed like the game was going to let me capture him alive. Anyone know what happens if you don’t shoot him right there?

[@jizzer9000]

Bill goes to shoot you, if you don’t kill him first he kills you - much like Edgar Ross

[@kevinschofieldjr.9927]

John and Arthur never betrayed Dutch or the gang it was because Dutch was easily manipulated By Micah even more after Dutch had his brain injury during the trolley station mission and after Hosea died Micah weaseled his way to be Dutch’s right hand bitch because Dutch liked violence because Micah wanted him to be ruthless, nasty and vindictive

[@Landonshadowboy2988]

Short answer No

[@blakeforkins7375]

In Dutch’s eyes, absolutely. Cuz John was one of the first to challenge his decision making

[@Kindless_NightcoreYT]

Hi Cynic, love your videos.. it's not much money but you deserve it

[@CynicGTA]

Wow, thank you so much. Watching alone is more than i can ask for. This is so kind of you. Thank you so much!

[@Kindless_NightcoreYT]

@@CynicGTA your welcome

[@Baked502]

Another thing that stands out to me, is that in RDR2 Dutch talks about how Colm O’Driscoll only cares about numbers and probably doesn’t even know most of their names and how The Van Der Linde gang is different and cares about its people but ends up being exactly the same.

[@CosmicalGalaxy]

Noone betrayed dutch dutch betrayed everyone else

[@danonyt1611]

I think something he realised in my most recent playthrough that there’s not many interactions between Dutch and John, altho he’s his son, right next to Arthur. And the other thing, Arthur refers to John as the “Prize horse” and Arthur the “Work horse”. Being one of the most seasoned enforcers, why isn’t he given just as much work, he’s clearly very useful. And if he’s the Prize horse, why does Dutch barely talk to him. He’s usually just doing jobs himself like Sean and Javier. Basically on the same level as these guys.

[@lethaldollie]

cynic never die pls ur so awesome sauce

[@cyovu]

The Fact that there’s a theory of Dutch legitimately going crazy and becoming cannibal (based off the human bones found inside of his tent in rdr1) shows how off the wall he went over the years

[@jonathancox298]

What if Dutch is like two-face 🤔

[@Kubinda12345]

Can you please make a video about Guarma? Not about the arc but about the island itself; its history, factions, locations etc.

[@kingman-fm4dq]

John and Arthur didn't betray Dutch, Dutch betrayed them

[@zeafrz3186]

Did he was loyal? Yes and no because he leave the gang 1 year left behind his wife and kid then he return before robbery blackwater when you play mission arther hunt Bear with hosea he tell about john ditch gang 1 year I wounder why? And here we know why jack say john sir instead father

[@billiem2372]

Dutch betrayed him :(

[@ashenking5013]

Arthur didn’t betray Dutch. John didn’t betray Dutch. Micah didn’t betray Dutch. Dutch betrayed Dutch!

[@goldentalon557]

I believe that Dutch has that disorder where you have multiple personality's and that was the reason of his downfall

[@mrfluffyribs3141]

Sadie and Charles are somewhere. It would make me very happy if rdr 3 was about them

[@fohawk871]

I know its a heavy betrayal, but if we've already seen dutch leave Arthur to die at this point, we know DAMN WELL that hed leave John to die over any excuse

[@ThatKidCj23]

I believe John, Hosea, Charles and Arthur to be the most loyal to Dutch and the gang. Regardless how they felt they would never turn on their family

[@wolfofumbra8332]

No. John speaks out of anger alot. He knows deep down that dutch changed. he says so in the first game and even faced with all the stuff Dutch has done, he still admitted he would have rather shot ross rather than dutch. This shows that he still holds some piece of dutch close in his heart. Dutch changed, he wasnt always an evil man.

[@Bendy_devil_darling]

What this ost called at 0:10 I would like to know

[@scottduncan5732]

I don’t know the name of the track but I think it plays during the epilogue

[@Adam_X78]

No, never.

[@Gravelgratious]

How I see it Dutch secretly wanted Abigail, and John was in his way.

[@SketchySkullKnight]

No.

[@phillipwalling7470]

Dutch definitely betrayed his best men for one rat he knew for 6 months. John and Arthur are loyal to Dutch. Dutch just didn't return the favor.

[@thelittlemetalman811]

Idea 4 red dead redemption 3 Dutch is mc

[@FulKounter]

Bro how’s this game look so real ? I don’t remember the graphics being this realistic..is it on pc ?

[@CynicGTA]

Yea its pc

[@adam2268]

John betrayed Dutch because he took Abigail away from the gang for his selfish reason. They all had a way with her. Hence John is guilty of betrayal.

[@Mc_Guy.]

How many times have u placed rdr2?

[@somethingsomething6904]

Arthur is just culturally sensitive John 😂 they took john personality from the first game and made him woke😂 and yall fell for it so don't get mad when they keep doing it 🤦🏾‍♂️ yall showed them it works 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@Jphantom213]

Some of these videos are kinda pointless if u played the game uk the answer basically going over everything we know .

[@mcawesomeytyo3312]

7:12

[@R.T.Logan.80]

No

[@LaOñda-1]

Under 10 Min ? 👇🏾

[@moelester8547]

Thank you for the spoiler warning at the beginning, i havent played rdr1 yet and so i will return to this video after i have 🫡

[@fredanderson7728]

It's true John left the gang for a year and pissed off the gang when he was eventually allowed to return. John's questionable loyalty was brought up upon his return and after multiple tense exchanges as well as John's actions and the problems Dutch causes, it slowly becomes clear John is loyal to the gang. I gotta admit during RDR2 and RDR John's sense of loyalty is adamant even if it is misplaced or lost at times.

[@josephstalin2606]

I think Arthur is the only one who had a real problem with John returning. It’s not like John wasn’t allowed to return and eventually did, he just came back after a year and it’s said that Dutch welcomed him back with open arms. That’s why Arthur says “If it had been anyone else” but Hosea says its about time for Arthur to just let it go