Did Joseph Smith Sr. and Lehi both have the same dream? Ep. 132

[@josephworth8383]

THIS IS SO COOL because someone i taught on my mission had a very simaler deam even before we even gave him a copy of the book of mormon! using words such as narrow path desolate space, tempations around him etc!!

[@RafaelBarcellosMachado]

I tend to agree with option number 2, because when I was a child I used to have a recurring dream which was somewhat similar to Lehi's account. Years later, when I learned of the Book of Mormon and read 1 Nephi 8 and 11, I was taken aback at how those two prophets of old had had similar dreams to mine. These things do happen.

[@clandestinewanderers2380]

Well put. However, answering this question is unnecessary if one has had the experience of the Holy Ghost confirming the truth of the BOM, Joesph Smith, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[@jbailey1898]

Wow! That's so cool

[@stevenschmidt]

One thing you didn't bring up, but which is a strong possibility --- perhaps the similarities in wording between Lucy's account of her husband's dream and Lehi's dream in the Book of Mormon was intensional by Lucy, and very likely was the whole point! It was her way to emphasize how similar it was to the version in the Book of Mormon. It was her way to emphasize how incredible it was that her husband had this dream that was so similar to the one in the Book of Mormon.

[@dinocollins720]

my thoughts exactly! she recognized the similarities and was drawing parallels!

[@stevenschmidt]

I think it's a combination of option 2 and option 3 -- I think Joseph Sr. had a dream that had many similar elements to Lehi's dream, but then, years later, Lucy's description of it became heavily influenced by the wording and content of Lehi's dream from the Book of Mormon.

[@parleylambert9397]

I've heard this point brought up a few times, but never really dug into it. Thank you for bringing it to light and explaining it in an insightful way!

[@CarlosRomero-pl9tk]

I think option 2 sounds right it could have been a preparatory dream for him (Joseph smith sr) to accept the gospel, if that is the case, imagine how he would have felt when he read about Lihi's dream for the first time. It would have been a very powerful witness of the book of Mormon.

[@thejorgerojas]

I thought the same thing. Why put the mysteries of God in a box?

[@MatthewHavertzPurposePictures]

I've known about this for a long time, and it never bothered me. Your interpretation, Carlos, is how I always thought of it myself. Joseph of Egypt obviously had dreams that prepared him for his future. So have many others. So have I.

[@DavidNellTheHarbinger]

@@MatthewHavertzPurposePictures That's the trick there, those of us who have experienced this kind of experience have zero issues with this pattern,

[@amynazza]

After my grandfather passed away my grandmother typed up his journals and had them printed as a Christmas gift to all of his children and grandchildren. She had inserted photos from various points of time in his life to match the corresponding text, etc. We were all pretty upset when we discovered that she had edited his entries and descriptions---in her words, she 'had to do it because his spelling and grammar and even narrations weren't entirely correct' and she didn't care that we wanted to experience his world through his words.....not her filter of his words. So, I appreciate you including Option 3 in your video because sometimes spouses with good intentions still manage to fall short.

[@Thehaystack7999]

There were many accounts of dreams with fruit trees in that time. I think there was a preacher who had a similar dream and he shared it with Lorenzo Snow I think, and it was a dream indicating that the true gospel would come forth but that preacher would die before he can partake of that fruit, but Lorenzo would partake. Which he did and so believe later did the temple work for the preacher.

[@Sunshine-eo2sp]

never disappoint David!

[@LatterDayData]

Plus, a point the video doesn’t mention - why doesn’t Lucy make a connection between her husband’s dream and Lehi’s dream? She seems oblivious to it, as if when she read the Book of Mormon she didn’t see the similarity. And it doesn’t occur to her that other people would see the similarity? She was getting a little older and had lived a long life with many experiences. Occam tells us she was probably conflating details. People conflate details all the time, so it’s entirely plausible - while the alternative (that she didn’t connect her husband’s dream with Lehi’s dream) is highly implausible. Am I wrong?

[@stevenschmidt]

There's a lot of filtering going on between Lucy dictating her recollection to her scribe and the final form of the words in the text of Lucy's history (of which there is more than one version). I think she intended the connection to be implicit -- there was no need to bring it up because it was obvious. Perhaps that was why she used some of the same wording as from Lehi's dream -- it was her way to emphasize how similar it was to the version in the Book of Mormon. The similarities may very well have been the whole point -- her way to emphasize how incredible it was that her husband had this dream that was similar to the one in the Book of Mormon.

[@Empisee]

I was previously aware of this dream. Leaned towards option 2 because I didn't know the supporting facts for option 3. I think the reality is probably a hybrid of those two. Option 1 is a non-starter.

[@tcoladonato]

Agreed, option 3. Heck I can watch a movie before I go to bed, and that movie can and has influenced my dream. It’s not magic, it’s conscious awareness un recognized at the time.

[@sampathrathnayaka3905]

Joseph Smith sr. always interpreted his dreams. he believed his dreams had a great meaning.most of the times he saw such dreams when he had a problems like fiancial and religious problems. Lehi's dream also one of them he saw when he had a problem with religion. I beleive non of his family members read entire Book Of Mormon.

[@sarahstanfield6355]

This is the most ironic video I have ever seen. A Mormon stating that a book written years later by scribes who are not the author is not proof of anything especially when no one else had ever heard of the events talked about in the book. Isn't that exactly what the Book of Mormon is.

[@stevenschmidt]

I see your logic, and I must admit that is ironic! But that being said, I have a brief thought: "Proof" and "evidence" are not the same thing. Neither the Book of Mormon nor Lucy's history of Joseph Smith is "proof" of the content they claim. Yet both are evidence of it. In the case of the Book of Mormon, we have to go to God and get our own spiritual "proof" by revelation (along with following its precepts and seeing the proof of their validity in our lives as we live them).

[@nathanwanlass3083]

Interesting. I had never heard of this before, cool stuff!

[@explorerofmind]

It’d be cool If Joseph Sr. had the same dream as Lehi, and I think it’s possible. It’s interesting that we don’t have any record of this dream from anyone except Lucy… But, we also don’t have very much information about much of any of the Smith’s lives outside of Joseph and Lucy and a few other historical figures.

[@dr33776]

It's possible UFOs are real... I have yet to see any evidence that proves it. Same with Joseph smiths book.

[@thejorgerojas]

It’s amazing how every single anti Mormon claim has some sort of explanation. Goes to show the strength and validity of Joseph Smith’s story.

[@joewalker643]

respectfully, not really. the provision of an explanation isn't evidence of strength in and of itself. for example: we know about how our orbit of the sun works today, I could challenge that and say that its not true and provide my own explanation that the sun moves around the flat earth and it goes underneath it at night. Boom an explanation! but one of them is a lot more credible than the other. but in order to settle the question of "does the earth move around the sun or the sun around the earth" we have to do some critical thinking and assess both sides. if you really want to know if what you believe is true then look at both sides of the argument and weigh the answers for yourself.

[@dr33776]

I didn't hear explanations, I heard theories. That's what happens when facts aren't on your side, you have to resort to throwing 20 "plausible" theories even if they contradict each other. If you have to give out more than one possible answer you really have no answer.

[@professorchimp1]

Seems they “thrive” on removing context…

[@mamabear9646]

I'm between 2 and 3 for that, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt if possible and it's common for wise men seeking God to have similar witnesses.

[@markadamel]

Very good analysis, if some troublesome church history casts doubts on the the church we must dismiss it !!

[@dr33776]

If it's an issue or two sure... there are dozens and dozens of issues that come up when you dig into them. Book of abraham Poliandry Deutero isaiah Anachronism First vision accounts Seems like God is intentionally putting stumbling rocks to show him our faith or may be this isn't his church and Joseph Smlth was a charlatan

[@collintibbitts]

Genuine question here too - what about Nephi's further interpretation of the river of water being a gulf or divide between the righteous and wicked?

[@jdawg3677]

Should we believe the first vision? It was written several years after it happened and the accounts vary. Its also the case with the restoration of the priesthood with Peter James and John. Written several years after and virtually no one knew the visitation/vision/dream. Almost all of early church is not well documented or the history was written years or even decades after it happened. I just watched the first vision on SU and I think you need to give Joseph the same edit that you gave lucy.

[@timneji]

We should at least be aware of the different accounts and the different possiblys how maybe was

[@germanslice]

The First vision is real. And Lehi's dream is the reality as God sees it. It shows the whole picture of everybody's timelines that they are living in that God can see as God can see everything. So he can see all the paths his children are walking on and their destinations those paths lead to.. God does have a glorious resurrected body of flesh and bones and he does have all that power and glory that Joseph Smith had described of him. Joseph told the truth about these two resurrected beings, God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are capable of. It is in the scriptures also about Angels of God also having bodies of flesh and bone since they had touched several people as recorded in the accounts in the scriptures before the birth of Christ. Did two extra terrestiral beings come down from another world and visit the planet to this young boy called Joseph Smith? The answer is Yes and they been making visits to the planet throughout the earth's history. Its no surprise to me that God would choose a young boy to be his prophet of the Restoration because God also chose Samuel in the temple as his prophet when he was only a young boy as well. So I see no surprise there....As God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ has made worlds without number, so we shouldn't be surprised to learn that God drops in every once in a while to update his children on his plans.... Should it be a real surprise that two extra terrestrial beings from outer space from another world said they were not here from this world as Jesus repeatedly said over and over about himself and his Father saying in the Book of John in the Bible saying, I and my father are not of this world. So we know they are extra terrestrial beings that came from another world. If we believe the scripture accounts. . .

[@jdawg3677]

Did Joseph actually see Heavenly Father and Jesus? The first vision was a VISION not a visitation. Joseph saw the lord(1832 account), two personages (1838 account) by second sight or spiritual eyes. Bible talks about how man can’t see god and the doctrine and covenants says that no man hasn’t seen god without the priesthood. Vision or dream but definitely not an actual visitation of god the father and Jesus. I felt SU threw Lucy under the bus. If they wrote off Lucy account of Joseph Smith sr. Of the dream, they also need do the same to Joseph Smith first vision. I love Lucy and she was a great women. I think they did her dirty while making Joseph ride the white horse and spotless in other videos.

[@germanslice]

@@jdawg3677 Wasn't t a dream. Because it was a life-changing experience for Joseph when it happened to him.. Moses was speaking to the Lord face to face. Man can see God in the flesh when quickened and can also be visited by Angles. A pillar of light fell upon on Joseph so he was quickened by the Father already which made it possible for him to see the Father and the Son. They did visit him but he had to be quickened first for him to endure their glory and presence.. Just as Moroni Came down out of heaven from the portal in his bedroom to personally visit him.. We also have the promise of the Father and the Son promising to visit man in John 14:23-24. So his visit of the Father and the Son appearing first even if its angels that showed up at first before the Father and Son approached or the Son that was seen or the Father matters not, for it fulfills Bible teachings that God the father and the Son will come meet him. And also in the Old testament God has said he will not hide his face away forever. So we know by old testament prophecy that God will again show his face... and we knew that heavenly visits will occur again in the last days to establish the gospel back on the earth because John saw an angle gly in the midst of heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach to them who dwell on earth. We also know from Old testament teaching that the Lord will again bring back Zion. Mary the mother of Jesus wasn't a priesthood bearer and yet God visited her with his presence. Angles of God who posess a resurrected body of flesh and bones like God didn't just appear only to prophets but also appeared to ordinary people and to Cornelius who didn't even hold God's priesthood. Angles also came down to let the apostles out of the prison, and one angle slapped one of the apostle who was sleeping to wake him up so these are not dreams or visions. but real interaction. SLAP.

[@jdawg3677]

Exodus says no man shall see the face of god and lived. Moses only saw his back and not his face later in chapter 33. Contradicts what it says earlier about the face to face. It may mean not a literal face to face. I believe Joseph to be a inspired leader. Did the first vision happen? Yes but I believe it was a dream. I believe in his first account wanting to receive forgiveness of his sins. I don’t think satan was trying to stop his prayer. The story changes so much over time and gets more elaborate. He didn’t remember the date, his age, and details change. It was important part of church history and I do believe he had an experience that changed him. As much as the gospel is changing(doctrine and policy) I believe the church is going to change its narrative on the first vision. They already have changed what they have said about the book of Abraham and now they are saying the Book of Mormon was a revelation not a translation. It will be interesting to see how the church changes in the next 10 years.

[@Jjj53214]

The similarity between Joseph Sr’s dream and Lehi’s dream is an interesting curiosity, but ultimately irrelevant. What is essential is the merit of Lehi’s dream in providing greater understanding about the gospel of Christ.

[@outof_obscurity]

I thought maybe along the lines of option 2. But showing this came after 1844 from Lucy at age 70 takes the wind out of the sails for option 1 and option 2. It's an discredited source. Its ironic how quickly critics jump on things like this, but question accurate first hand sources like the witnesses.

[@dasanders13]

The church seems to be on option 2. The friend mag shared the story like option 2 before

[@johnwright2217]

LOVE that intro music!

[@loganwrigley1470]

Your option 2 doesn't make sense because Joseph Smith could have just said that Nephi had the same vision as John. Stories or exact quotes from the bible were constantly placed in the Book of Mormon.

[@KnuttyEntertainment]

What’s with the Hyrum Smith portrait in the thumbnail?

[@Element78Dan]

It's interesting that the Book of Mormon came in the 1800s then in 1940 long after the Book of Mormon was published archeologist discovered the izapa stela 5 in Izapa Mexico. Which also details the vision of the tree of life. Interestingly they have name plates above the characters and one of them is a Jawbone. Lehi in Hebrew means Jaw Bone. The vision of the tree of life at least from an archeological point of view happened before Joseph was born and was written on a rock dated about 300 BC about the same time Lehis family landed in the Americas 😮 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5

[@bustillo-family]

Interesting. Never heard this one yet. Need to dig it.

[@mightyxt]

It's either option 2 or option 3, I'm torn between those two.

[@Michael-jo9jz]

1 Nephi 8 is my favorite chapter in the Book of Mormon.

[@jennycross2121]

Thank you for this, I am reading Lucy book now and I question this. I never thought about it this way.

[@leem3299]

And Lucy (Joseph's mother who would do nothing on purpose to cast doubt on him, and wife of the person who had the dream) isn't around to defend herself. I'm pretty sure she read her own book carefully before it was published though. Alas, this is a simple case of we can believe anything we want. There's always a way to cast doubt on things, and there's always a way to keep believing. Let's just focus on mutual respect the best we can. I'd say this video did that pretty well. Whether it sounds like apologetic backflips, or good news, I commend the tone. And the title of the video was catchy - drew me right in.

[@StompMom5]

Love these videos and how you approach them 👍🤣. I believe the book of Mormon is true because of my own personal experience with it, not because of any worldly rumor or science based nothing. I wonder if people realize they either believe the writers in the book or they believe in the men of the world. Either way they're believing something someone said and I personally find the men in the book of Mormon far more interesting than that of the world.

[@collintibbitts]

Thanks for the video! I think I knew this, but I thought it was hilarious and ironic that the actor playing Joseph Sr. and Lehi were the same 😆Coincidence? I think not!

[@SpiritGuide11111]

Great video

[@larryfrakous1332]

Can you talk about Joseph Smith’s early “storytelling” that critics talk about?

[@KimballTho]

I'd love to see this covered too!

[@eldermcgraw8406]

They were given to him by the Angel Moroni That’s the context of the stories

[@explorerofmind]

Ask a critic to tell you one of his “stories” some time. They’ll likely either mention his telling about the ancient inhabitants of America, which were events revealed to him by Moroni, or they’ll try to twist the time he was hired to help an old man look for gold. He eventually convinced the old man to give up, but that’s not what the enemies of the Church of Jesus Christ will say.

[@lauriesmith6106]

David, your channel has been helping me tremendously. Could you please tell me why Mormon means a spirit female that scares little children. I feel like whenever I get 2 steps closer something negative comes up.

[@gordonbarnes7005]

I know I'm not David, but I can't help but wonder where you heard that Mormon means a spirit female that scares little children. Because I'm quite certain that it doesn't mean anything close to that.

[@lauriesmith6106]

@@gordonbarnes7005 I was told to look up the definition of Mormon and there it was. Google the word Mormon

[@lauriesmith6106]

First write the word Mormo and then the definition will come up. Mormo or Mormon....same thing

[@gordonbarnes7005]

@@lauriesmith6106 Ah. Now I get it. That doesn't really mean that much though. Looks to me like a simple linguistic coincidence. Sort of like how the Portuguese word "pasta" actually means "briefcase" or "folder" and has absolutely no relation to noodles, even though it happens to look the same.

[@lauriesmith6106]

@@gordonbarnes7005 Oh ok thank you!!!! You really helped put my mind at ease😀

[@mormonreject7564]

Its interesting about this tree dream. If you read the book of enoch found in the dead sea scrolls it tells about Enoch and the tree.

[@jbailey1898]

Yes!!!

[@misterowl1962]

If your new method is to discount later testimony in favor of only contemporary testimony, you’re also gonna throw out the transfiguration of Brigham Young, the restoration of the priesthood, and the first vision, among other things. Historians use similar logic to yours in this video to say that those things probably didn’t happen.

[@dr33776]

That's what they always do. If it doesn't fit their narrative they throw it away.

[@1900intz]

Interesting. Thank you.

[@stuartlyon4101]

What a waste! Why not give some of the words from Lucy Mack Smith's accounts?

[@genasseeceline]

1:19 HAHA! They're even the same actor!! Don't think that was on purpose... :P

[@clintque6164]

Lot of Knowledge bro

[@DannyAGray]

Good stuff. I like it

[@pythonanywhere3392]

Lehi is Smith's idea of his father, and Smith wrote about himself and his movement by personification in Nephi. It's brilliant, but it's highly psychological and metaphorical. That's why I love studying The Book of Mormon, but as a biopsy of Smith and the movement. If you ruin the movement, you also ruin a unique culture and anthropology, and that's why I'm okay with people being believers as long as they aren't talking to their toasters or scared of microwaves. 👍😉

[@Red-gp9hn]

Thank you! After reading Rough Stone Rolling I was worried about this. This answers my question well.

[@TBIhope]

Cool!

[@onlytruthmatters777]

BoM . Lies... lies and more lies. J S couldn't even translate the JST properly

[@PapaKryptoss]

I feel Lucy Smith story is bogus

[@seans5289]

I’d be interested in seeing this same formula used on 2000 year-old resurrection accounts.

[@heatherluna5075]

🌷🌷🌷

[@AngelicHelper]

Option 2

[@DavidNellTheHarbinger]

Boom

[@redfightblue]

Lehi escaped the Babylonians by migrating to Egypt. He had the dream on an island in the Nile River. The dream corresponds with Jeremiahs stern warning that Jews should not go to Egypt. The dream encourages Lehi's party to continue up the Nile to its source where they believed the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life (from Genesis) were. They travel up the Nile and into modern day Ethiopia (It's "strait and narrow" not "straight and narrow". The word "strait" can apply to a narrow waterway in this case the Nile River). The remainder of the BOM takes place in Ethiopia, not America. The BOM is the record of Jews that escaped the Babylonian destruction by migrating to Ethiopia. They lived there from 600 BC to 400 AD. There history (The BOM) was discovered by James Bruce (Freemason and Rosicrucian) when he discovered Ethiopia. He brought the manuscript to Europe along with hundreds others to be translated. Many were translated but the BOM was never published. The manuscript fell into the hands of Rosicrucian's at Dartmouth College who set out a plan to use the unpublished history as a guide for Christianizing the American Indian. By changing a few details, they could easily change the history of the manuscript and instead of Ethiopia, the book now takes place in Ancient America. They recruited Joseph Smith to "find" the book and "reveal" it to add to the authenticity of the book taking place in America. Lucy Mack Smith is a descendant of the famous Rosicrucian Alexander Mack who brought Rosicrucianism to America. Lucy Mack Smith's autobiography reads like an initiation pamphlet into Rosicrucianism. Joseph Sr. was also clearly a Rosicrucian. He was most likely initiated when living across the river from Dartmouth. Other students and faculty at Dartmouth were Rosicrucian and at least 2 published similar books alleging the Native American Indian is a descendant of Jews. When those efforts failed to generate any steam, the more aggressive plan of "finding" the BOM buried in the ground took shape.

[@blueangel2717]

Can you talk about the covid and the plandemic 😆