Why isn't there evidence of ancient warfare surrounding the Hill Cumorah in New York? Ep. 104

[@life-of-taylor]

Bold of Shoosz7 to assume Star Wars is a work of fiction.

[@fallerpilot]

Haha

[@MeatGoblin88]

"a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away"

[@Swede-js9jq]

😂

[@moem9498]

Thank you for these videos. I am not Mormon but my childhood home was within biking distance from most of the historic sights to this religion. Growing up I was not allowed to learn about other regions that were not my own, but now as a young adult, I study religion at university, and this faith has always piqued my curiosity. So thank you for helping me expand my knowledge and develop a deeper understanding of the culture and faith of my hometown.

[@rjkrebs]

@moem9498 where did you grow up?

[@stanmayo1805]

@@brettpinion4233 I'm sorry, but most of your claims have to be retracted over time. I also learned recently that the native Americans in upper New York and Canada would take you on with many of these issues.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

A similar question might be asked concerning the historic battle of Agincourt. This is certainly the best known battle of the late middle ages. Historians know exactly when and where the battle took place and they know it involved thousands of mounted, fully armored French knights, facing thousands of English foot soldiers and bowmen. To date, the total amount of archeological artifacts, specifically related to the battle and retrieved from the actual battlefield, amount to zero (as in nothing, nada, zip.) The final battle of Cumorah, predates Agincourt by nearly 1000 years!

[@edu.santos]

excellent point

[@keith-ole]

Thanks for this, I never knew that about the Battle of Hastings.

[@mouseyender]

North and south America are technically one continent though, connected by Panama

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@@mouseyender South America is considered another continent, while Mexico and Meso-Anerica are part of North America.

[@austinfuller5659]

@@jamesbaldwin7676 And Pluto was a planet. Europe is a peninsula of Asia. Words have a level of subjectivity. At least everyone agrees it was in the New World

[@edwardhegemann5951]

You do a fabulous job laying out the facts, showing what we know and what we don’t know and then encourage people to draw their own conclusions. Thank you! This is so needed today. I also love the little video clips mixed in. Keep up the good work.

[@MarcieNielsen]

Thanks for all the work you do on your channel. This was such a great explanation.

[@josephsaltal2596]

I live about 1 or 2 hours away from the NY Hill Cumorah.

[@nocturnalrecluse1216]

About 7 minutes for me.

[@f50koenigg]

Would you visit there just to feel the vibes of history?

[@juliesteimle3867]

Just like there is a Moscow in Idaho, a Jordan River in Utah, place names are often repeated.

[@brettmajeske3525]

A point often overlooked. Thank you. There is even a Britain in France, which helps explain some of the confusion found in the Arthurian Cycle. Confusing place names has long been a problem in reconstructing history.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Thanks for this explanation. I always wondered why people assumed that the hill was cumora even though Moroni never names it as such.

[@Luvtallhorses]

Because this is where Joseph found the plates, where he and Oliver Cowdery went into a physical room in the hill and saw “many wagonloads” of plates, the sword of Laban and the Liahona. He made it very clear this was not a vision but an actual event. A child recently (in the past few years) fell through a hole in the hill into a room. The child was rescued and the hole was covered. Once again it was a room, not a natural cave.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@Luvtallhorses Again, why would any of those suggest that the hill in New York is the same one that Mormon hide the records he didn't give to his son. Especially since entering into a room with more records is described in all primary documents describe as a dream or vision. I am curious why you insist that was a "physical room"? Unless you think other commonly misunderstood the account.

[@rutherglenroad8109]

Wow. I have never heard this explanation before. It makes sense and has answered some of my questions. God bless.

[@brettmajeske3525]

I first heard it in Institute in the early 90s.

[@averykirk]

Goodness I love this channel. Keep up the great work David!

[@dori4567]

After five years of being inactive , I am finally allowing myself to fact check my LDS concerns. This explanation makes perfect sense to me . But …….. there are sooooo many other concerns that I have researched and found no plausible explanations for .

[@joshuafusselman3323]

There may or may not be plausible explanations within present reach for each of your concerns. Ultimately I think God intends for us to NOT have all the answers in this life to test what we'll do with what we do have. If you're not already doing so, I invite you to begin reading the Book of Mormon again, to see what happens.

[@bigtobacco1098]

Odd because soooo much of the biblical archeology has been...

[@SlayingtheGloom]

Wow, this was something I was just barely thinking about (and have been a lot these past few weeks). Thanks!

[@jeffwilson4693]

Thank you so much for your and everyone elses research on this subject.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Thanks for watching!!

[@Thomas-vb4bu]

Fair point. Ima stick with the heartland though. I still love you guys though. ❤️ keep up the great work!

[@davidsnell2605]

You may be interested in a theory proposed by Mark Alan Wright, in which he blends both the Mesoamerican and Heartland models (to an extent). He believe Mesoamerica would have been the central hub of Book of Mormon events, but also cites scripture from Alma which talks about huge migrations of Nephites heading to the land northward, who then drop out of the story of the Book of Mormon altogether. These migrations could explain the statements made by Joseph about Nephites in the heartland. I find the theory strikes a nice balance between the two theories, as opposed to feeding the flames of polarization between each stance. Here's the link, thought I'm not sure if you'll be able to access it if you're currently a missionary. If you're super interested, contact me on facebook and I'll copy/paste the article for you: scholarsarchive.byu.edu/facpub/4321/

[@rconger384]

" Make Cumorah Great Again! "

[@Thomas-vb4bu]

@@davidsnell2605 sounds interesting. I’m not a missionary right now. I actually just got home. Would you recommend changing my profile pic to avoid giving the wrong impression?😂

[@davidsnell2605]

@@Thomas-vb4bu haha up to you. Welcome home. Check that link out when you have a few minutes!

[@yeeoldeseabass]

Orson Pratt seemed to think they landed in Peru and moved up into Central America.

[@Joescuderia]

Hello I’m a Mormon an a former full time missionary for my church. The question at hand is quite valid and the video on the matter quite poor and infantile (still funny) Hill Cumorah and the Land of Cumorah cannot be located in MesoAmerica, the description of Mormon himself of the place locate such land with resemblance to the Big Lakes and East coast of the States also the extermination of both the Jaredites and Nephites took place at the same region and anyone familiar with the Book of Mormon is familiar with the account, the reason there is not too much archaeological evidence of human remains escapes me but we have to consider what time can do in 1,600 years .Probably most of the corpses were not buried and probably even cremated in masses to avoid the smell so remains could not made it passing the ages, the leaders of the church are not silly and for some strong reason still keep this place as the Hill Cumorah and it’s quite interesting because legend has it there’s a whole library hidden somewhere in it. In my opinion many of the sacred artifacts are in possession of the church today since the Prophet is a “seer” and that’s only possible tru the Urim and Thummin. Have a wonderful day .

[@brettmajeske3525]

The hill would be sacred whether or not it was Mormon's Cumorah. The fact is the Book of Mormon does not claim Moroni used the same hill as his father.

[@llamatown8160]

All it takes is one steel artifact found in the americas. One arrowhead, belt buckle, or fragment of a sword. Considering the sheer number of these steel weapons described in the book of Mormon, I am beginning to think that God may have beamed them up to heaven or something by now. It seems to be the only plausible explanation for the lack of these artifacts found. I guess he wants to leave no trace of these "sheep not of his fold." I guess he wants to leave us guessing about this "most perfect book." I guess we just have to trust in his destruction of evidence and betrayal of agency. Praise the LORD!

[@darenferrell]

Thank you for these videos! You are doing untold good while strongly adhering to primary source based scholarship. Carry on and God bless you.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

I'm thrilled to know that you appreciate our videos and find value in our primary source-based scholarship. We'll keep on going, spreading knowledge, and aiming to do good. God bless you too!

[@TP-vu3tc]

Growing up in the Church, during the 60's and 70's, it was taught to us, in Sunday School classes and in seminary, that the BOM lands we're in Mexico, and Nephites we're chased all the way to New York state, with Laminates in hot pursuit.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Interestingly enough, I own copies of all the Sunday School manuals published since 1901. None actually mention any of that, so your teachers were departing from the authorized curriculum when teaching you that.

[@droundyCubby]

Not in my Seminary and Institute classes. Must have been local. I did know that I did the hill we call Cumorah was only the last few records. It will be exciting to see more of the ancient records.

[@AGrimAwakening]

What Marion G. Romney said about the Hill Cumorah in October 1975 General Conference. “In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago-events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation.”

[@showflix7552]

Church leaders don't even know their own history, they just know how to run the corporation.

[@fallerpilot]

@@showflix7552 nah, they're just imperfect humans, as is every human the Lord works with

[@fallerpilot]

@@getharryonsax in that thing i guess

[@brettmajeske3525]

Different people have different opinions.

[@jonesmorales-tu6kq]

It's blasphemy to add a book to the Bible

[@Greg_Schubert]

If you have ever walked atop that hill by yourself in an early evening it's a very ethereal and other worldly feeling regardless of how it got there.

[@igoldenknight2169]

I actually didn’t know this! I heard stories of visions that revealed more plates inside the hill or something like that… but alas this video does answer my curiosity! Great video, I’ll share it with friends that have the same question!

[@tewstronge9173]

This is great and all, but I'm stuck on what records were hit up in "the hill Cumorah" that Mormon describes?

[@wa1den]

In addition to lack of evidence of warfare there, what about the lack of evidence of the construction of cities made with cement? Such are typically found, rather, down in Mesoamerica... you get evidence down there both of cities constructed with cement, AND of significant levels of warfare!

[@wa1den]

Me again... as background to my previous comment, please take note that the Book of Mormon makes mention of the construction of cities made with cement! While some may insist that north america was the area where the Book of Mormon events occurred, and where the original "hill cumorah" was/is located, I would again point out that in addition to a lack of evidence for massive warfare there, that although there may be evidence of inhabitation by peoples building mounds, to my knowledge, we don't find evidence of the construction of ancient cities built of cement, as referred to in t he Book of Mormon; however, we DO find such things in Meso-America, along with evidences of the warfare that is missing in the vecinity of the supposed "hill cumorah" in New York state.

[@GADBabaganoosh]

Not only cement, but thrown UP highways, abundance of gold silver and copper, north flowing river. (tons of other stuff too) Theres just too many boxes Northamerica/heartland doesn't check off that are specifically listed in the Book of Mormon. I'm sure the children of Lehi spread up north and south for sure, but the events of the Book of Mormon had to have taken place in MesoAmerica

[@MeninoKenny]

Gostei muito da sua explicação, obrigado! I appreciate your explanation about this subject, thanks!

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

Great points as always. Even if the war did happen around upstate NY, I question how much we would be able to find today. Weaponry, even those made out of metal, degrade significantly over time when left exposed to the elements. So do bones. Especially in a wet environment like NY state. Furthermore, many Native Americans have lived in that area since that time and would not have left a bunch of valuable items laying around. They would have repurposed the items. There is a ton of copper items in the area from the Hopewell. In addition, I think we have to change our mindset in what was actually being used in the final battle. It doesn't mention steel swords or horses. More likely arrows or wood spears. Arrow heads had been picked up in abundance all over the area by farmers over the years, which doesn't necessarily show there was a battle there. I just think people have unrealistic expectations about archeology. Like we would be able to waltz in there and find a battle scene over a thousand years after the event and expect it to look exactly how it looked right after it happened.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Thanks for pointing out what the text claim of the Book of Mormon actually is. So many people assume that all swords must be steel, in spite of historical evidence.

[@davidsnell2605]

Fair points. Though I think it's important to recognize that the Book of Mormon text never states that the Book of Mormon was buried in the Hill Cumorah in the first place. The assumption would have to be that Moroni wandered for 30+ years until he decided to come back to the same hill where the rest of the records were buried, to inter the Book of Mormon plates. I find it unlikely, and unnecessary. I just think early leaders made an incorrect assumption. But, as always, you're free to come to your own conclusions.

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

Sweet. I got David Snell to personally reply to one of my comments. I’m honored. To be clear, I’m not a heartlander. Mesoamerica makes a lot more sense to me based on the totality of the evidence. I was just pointing out that many have unrealistic expectations from archeology. Like that one guy you quoted in the video. If our civilization were to die out tomorrow and 1,600 years from now people are poking through the rubble, what is the likelihood that people would identify that there was once a people called the Latter-day Saints? It would be like us searching for the Nephites. Even if these future archaeologists found LDS homes, churches, or temples. Would they be able to distinguish them from other Christian denominations? There may be a small group who swore there used to be a people who lived called the Latter-day Saints based on small but definite clues but all the others would laugh at them and say there is no such thing.

[@bigtobacco1098]

​@tylerahlstrom4553 very likely... texts, carvings, scraps of clothes...

[@nicolecox1292]

This was a really good explanation! I hadn't really thought about it before, but it's good to know!

[@michaelbennett7561]

Because the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites was nowhere near what we call the "Hill Cumorah" today. That took place thousands of miles away from there.

[@SleepyEyeglasses-us2tn]

Good job! I was newly baptized and missionaries are the reasons why I am a member but if I had watched these videos I wouldn't have asked the missionaries to visit me.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Thanks for watching!!

[@KNMFLGIRL]

I love that he tackles questions head on.

[@Pharm40]

A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica. Hugh Nibley ancient temples: What do they signify? 1972

[@davidsnell2605]

Nibley also mentioned that the evidence is "more hospitable ... to the activities of one tragically short lived religious civilization that once flourished in Mesoamerica and then vanished towards the Northeast in the course of a series of confused tribal wars that was one long, drawn out retreat into oblivion." -"Nibley on the Timely and Timeless, pub. 1978, pg. 150. He also wrote that "John Sorenson's book 'Images of America' must remain the indispensable handbook for students of the Book of Mormon. The only book of its kind - enlightening and convincing. Who else will ever bring such diligence, knowledge and honesty to the task?" -Nibley to John Sorenson, 14 Jan. 1999. Images of America depicted what Nephite life would have looked like in Central America. Sorenson also wrote, "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon," which is also staunchly based in the Mesoamerican model. But you may be interested in this theory by Mark Alan Wright, which sort of blends the Mesoamerican and Heartland model together. He argues that Mesoamerica was the central hub for Book of Mormon events, but that there were mass migrations of Nephites into the land northward as recorded in Alma. These people drop out of the Book of Mormon story, and could account for some of Joseph Smith's statements about the heartland. Something to think about: scholarsarchive.byu.edu/facpub/4321/

[@UVJ_Scott]

Exactly! Thanks for clarifying this.

[@-samuel-mawle7038]

Do you think that the heartland model could still be correct, but just with a different hill where the last battle took place?

[@davidsnell2605]

Personally, I'm a Mesoamerican model guy. But I could totally get on board with this theory proposed by Mark Alan Wright, which sort of blends the two traditional theories, citing evidence of mass migrations of Nephites to the land northward (heartland) that drop out of the Book of Mormon story (even though the central hub of Book of Mormon events, according to Wright, still occurred in Mesoamerica). You may want to take a look. I think the polarization among members on this issue is generally unproductive (even though I'd probably consider myself relatively polarized haha), so I appreciate the ideas expressed here: scholarsarchive.byu.edu/facpub/4321/

[@Herosoulstone]

Sure! the book of Mormon could have taken place in lots of different places, I would be quicker to listen to a heartland model where the hill was in a different place

[@-samuel-mawle7038]

@@davidsnell2605 thanks David I’ll have a look. There are a lot of interesting points for both and from what I’ve seen I’m sorta more on the side of the heartland but that could easily change. I guess either side isn’t going to be able to be proven right until more archeology is found sadly.

[@JerkerSvensson-c1d]

Wow!! THANKS for this investigation. I have been thinking of this Hill and wondered if there is a missing link. This might be it.

[@dkheaton]

Great explanation. Thank you

[@joshuafusselman3323]

IF the hill in New York does happen to be the hill on which the last Nephite battle was fought, and none of the hundreds of thousands of individuals who died there got buried, but were left on the surface to rot...would there be anything left of their bones or clothing after 1600 years of weather? All that I would assume to last to today would be metal or ceramic or stone objects, right? And might not those weapons and pots have been pillaged by the Lamanite army before they left the area?

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

There would be a significant amount of evidence of such a battle. Look up the Teutoberg Battle. That battle was over 2,000 years ago and we have found bones and implements of war. We have enough information on Teutoburg to understand the tide of the battle. At some point this absolute lack of evidence regarding the Nephi battle is very damming of the BoM.

[@joshuafusselman3323]

@@PrairieChristianOutreach Have you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover?

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

@@joshuafusselman3323 Emotional appeals are irrelevant to the objective data. I have read significant portions of the BoM, some of which I find very well written with theology that has appreciable depth. 2 Nephi 2. However, the theology is very consistent with 19th century sentiments. I have read a significant amount of Christian literature from that era and the parallels are present. Back to your point. Given the scale and descriptions of the battles in the BoM, there would be obvious clues to such events. Since these are not found, the reinterpretations begin and there seems to be no end. The conclusion is that the BoM is not falsifiable. At that point the Mormon becomes fundamentalists and is not open to facts or truth, it is just belief.

[@joshuafusselman3323]

@@PrairieChristianOutreach There are 224 chapters (by my count) in the Book of Mormon. How many of these have you read from start to finish?

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

@@joshuafusselman3323 I’m uncertain. Your point? Are you trying to set up a false equivalency fallacy? Meaning I can’t understand the BoM unless I read it from cover to cover while asking the Lord to give me a testimony? Truth is I don’t read it as Scripture. I don’t believe it is inspired. I have read enough inspired writings to recognize them. Is that a bias…yes. We all have them. However, my concern still stands and you have not provided a valid explanation for the evidence we have in archaeological data.

[@ethanj-brady]

What is the video in the background that starts around 0:20? I’ve never seen that before.

[@MorganRhysGibbons]

This was *soooo* excellent!

[@rhonecherrington2131]

Thats not the way it reads, the few plates he leaves moroni were for the book of moroni, the rest of the Book of Mormon INCLUDING THE BOOKS OF NEPHI he clearly says he's burrying in the hill cumorah. While i would argue those that followed joseph Smith called it cumorah throughout his lifetime is self explanatory, there also have been several "prophets seers and revelators" after Joseph smith who did in fact declare this the hill cumorah...

[@CarlosRomero-pl9tk]

great work!

[@tzaylor]

Great explanation!

[@whizwhitney]

So glad he gives us permission to research for ourselves and come to our own conclusions. Yeah 😅

[@caseykaelin9430]

It seems inconceivable to me that Moroni walked 3000 miles or so with 60 pounds of plates on his back plus survival gear. You would need a pack mule for that kind of a trip, and that would have made it tougher to hide. If you read Antiquities of The State of New York you find the early settlers found ancient fortification as described in the BOM. I think we give to much credit to Sorenson and company.

[@RyanMercer]

Roman legionnaires carried almost 60 pounds, the British fighting in the American Revolutionary War carried 80 pounds, a current American solider will go into the field with 50lbs or more with roughly 60% of that just being body armor and this is fairly consistent with a the American fighting load since the late 1800s so it's not too unbelievable.

[@caseykaelin9430]

@@RyanMercer Not only is Moroni carrying the plates but he is carrying the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, and survival gear. I suspect his load is more then just the 60 pound plates. Modern soldiers may carry as much or more then Moroni but they don't do it for 3000 miles or more. That is why trucks, jeeps, airplanes, and railroads were invented. I don't think Moroni made that trip. The last battle took place in NYS.

[@RyanMercer]

@@caseykaelin9430 nomadic people have existed hauling around gear since time immemorial 🤷‍♂️

[@caseykaelin9430]

@@RyanMercer Nomadic people lived in a community and could divide up the load. The Indians used horses pulling travois. They even employed dogs. Moroni is on his own carrying everything he needs to survive including water. Now if he has a pack mule it might very well be do able but he still has to evade the Lamanites. A mule or horse it going to make it tougher to hide and easier to track. Then you have the ancient fortifications found in NYS and Ohio. I think there is enough evidence to make a good case for the heartland model.

[@GADBabaganoosh]

@@caseykaelin9430 He probably had a few people with him too, but theres no specific record of it.

[@fhmoth]

This answer is good. So with that in mind we know Moroni did travel 36 years to finally get to this, now called, Hill Cumorah, where Joseph did find the plates right?

[@protochris]

Orson Pratt claimed that Joseph Smith told him the final battle occured on the hill Cumorah located in New York. The plates were buried there as well. Look up Discourse by Orson Pratt dated March 19, 1871. This was restated at a church conference in April 6, 1889 which reported "he deposited them (the plates) carefully in the earth on a hill which was "THEN" called Cumorah, which was situated in what is now in Ontario county, township of Manchester...".

[@brettmajeske3525]

Second hand hearsay at best.

[@protochris]

@@brettmajeske3525 Desert News July 23, 1879 "Native Races locates these Indian fortifications in Western New York, and the BOM places the people there..BOM pages 506 and 507... "this hill Cumorah is situated in Ontario County, New York..near the village of Manchester.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@protochris The problem with whoever the reporter for that article got the citation wrong. The BOM does not identify the the place Moroni buried his plates, Cumorah is where Mormon buried his, all except those he gave to his son. Bad journalism is not evidence.

[@protochris]

@@brettmajeske3525 These items are taken from official church publications, Apostles, and church historians. Are the all wrong? In 1909, The church's official clerk to the Apostles, Prof. J.P Goddard identified the ancient hill Cumorah as the place Moroni buried the plates, and being in Western New York.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@protochris The popularity of a tradition or mistake in no way attests to its accuracy. I am unaware of any Prophet or Apostle making the explicit claim of Revelation surrounding the identification of Cumorah. Either there is a reference to passages in the Book of Mormon incorrectly asserting they identify the hill (which as I explained is not the plain text) or they accept past tradition with no interrogation. Assertion without explanation is not actually evidence. By what authority does the clerk to the Quorum have to issue new revelation? Because only the claim of new revelation can justify past misreading. I am not arguing that early Saints called the Hil in New York Cumorah. I am not even claiming that such was wrong. I am merely insisting that no recorded revelation or canon scripture identifies it as such. No official declaration, merely common tradition. Much like identifying Missouri as Eden. That actual scripture used to justify that tradition never even mentions Adam-ondi-Ahmen's geographical relationship to Eden. There are plenty of second hand hearsay attributed to Joseph Smith, but no primary documentation. Assuming folk lore and past tradition as being the equal of scripture resulted in many LDS supporting now disavowed theories concerning the Priesthood Restriction. I would like to avoid that.

[@stanmayo1805]

From the 8th printing, 1953 page 233 Of "Doctrines of Salvation" Joseph Fielding Smith states, "This modernistic theory of necessity ... must place the .. Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teaching of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years..." His statement goes on for several pages.

[@AGrimAwakening]

Joseph Smith called it Cumorah in D&C 128:20, that doesn't mean it's the same hill in the Book of Mormon. But neither does the end of Mormon 6:6 mean it's not the same hill Moroni hid up the plates. All we know, is at that the time Mormon hid the plates in Hill Cumorah, he also gave some plates to Moroni. Moroni might have had a portion of the plates so he didn't have to carry around all of them. It says he was given a few plates. We don't know what that means. He could easily gone back and hid the plates in the same Hill Cumorah from the Book of Mormon. And I'm not concerned about there being no Great War found there. It was more way more than a thousand years that went by since the great battle of the Book of Mormon. Literally, anything could have happened in that time period. Also, wood is mention as one of the building materials, even in a temple. Wood rots.

[@stanmayo1805]

So much is wrong with the presentation, sorry... Anyway, a primary source in Church history is the "History of Joseph Smith by His Mother Lucy Mack Smith." I have a copy of such book. On page 100, It mentions a family discussion in which Joseph says, "As I passed by the hill of Cumorah, where the plates are, the angel met me and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord ..."

[@Greghuntersranch]

There are still questions that need to be answered; Why did the Mormon Church “buy” the the mountain in up state NY if it wasn’t the location described in the Book of Mormon? Second, if that battle didn’t occur there then why hasn’t it been found any where else in the world?

[@torrybarnes]

Good questions. The hill in upstate New York is the same hill Joseph Smith said he found the plates, thus it has historic and sacred meaning to Latter-day Saint Christians. As for your second question, I do not have an answer. I presume we still have many archeological discoveries from ancient history to find. Maybe we'll discover it one day.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Several people have already answered the first question. Whether or not it was ever used by Mormon, it was certainly used by Moroni. I'm not sure what you mean by the second. There have been plenty of mass graveyards found throughout both North and Central America. How would anyone know if it has been found or not?

[@JunGarciaProductions]

mayans temple. lately house of lehi was discovered

[@davidsnell2605]

The video we published last week should help give some context to the second question: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWTddpawe9WqnJI TL;DR--We don't know where to start looking.

[@ericdexter3431]

Can you guys do a video on why ALL the 11 witnesses who saw the gold plates and angel Moroni eventually left the Mormon church? Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris actually later denied that they ever saw the gold plates and Joseph Smith himself said Martin Harris was a "wicked man who betrayed his oath to God" in Journal of Discourses section 3:12-13; section 10:6-7. Why would Joseph Smith say this but still use him as a witness? Why are these witnesses still listed in the Book of Mormon if they ended up leaving the church and renouncing Mormonism?

[@brettmajeske3525]

You seem to have some historical misunderstandings. Nether Oliver or Martin ever denied their testimony of the plates, and both died as members of the LDS Church in full fellowship. Both had personal disagreements with Joseph Smith, but never with the Book of Mormon. Of the Eight Witnesses, five died as faithful members of the LDS Church never doubting their testimony. Two were excommunicated, but they formed a splinter church and continued to preach the Book of Mormon even if they no longer followed Joseph. Page voluntarily left the LDS Church, but never denied the Book of Mormon. You seem to have gotten some bad information somewhere.

[@ericdexter3431]

Didnt realize I already mentioned my source in my initial comment, did you actually go look at it?

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@ericdexter3431 Yes I read it. It only mentions the disagreement between Harris and Smith, which was about land purchases in Missouri, not the Book of Mormon witnesses statement as you implied. It does not state that all 11 left the church and denied their witness. Even if it had, it would have been just another error in the Journal of Discourses, which is notoriously unreliable. Which is why it has not been used as a primary source for the last 100 years. It was never an official publication of the LDS Church, but a private publication of George Watts, who was excommunicated himself in the 1870s. In any case your assertion that all 11 left the Church is wrong. Your assertion that both Harris and Cowdery denied seeing the Plates is wrong. Your assertion that any of them renounced 'Mormonism' is wrong. Several did form a splinter Church instead of following Brigham Young. They still considered themselves Latter-Day Saints and still preached the Book of Mormon, even if the disagreed on who should lead it. I question whether or not you actually read the full sections 3 and 10 of the Journal of Discourses you cite, because the context of your quote disagrees with the tenor of your assertions. Who told you they all left? Who told you they denied their testimonies? Where did you get this false information? It is not in the sections of JD you quoted.

[@ericdexter3431]

@@brettmajeske3525 There's a signed and notarized affidavit with Martin Harris' name on it that disagrees with you, not to mention Harris changed religions about 10 times in his life. This is public info from multiple sites that a simple google search would explain... Just saying these are definitely not witnesses credible enough to be mentioned in a book that's considered by Mormons to be equal to the bible....these are Joseph Smith's and david whitmer's family members for the most part

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@ericdexter3431 You make lots of claims, but do not back them up. Here are some quotes with citations to back up mine: "Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything around was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris, you say, called it ‘being in vision.’ We read in the scriptures, Cornelius saw, in a vision, an angel of God, Daniel saw an angel in a vision, also in other places it states they saw an angel in the spirit. A bright light enveloped us where we were, that filled [the woods as] at noonday, and there in a vision or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon.” -David Whitmer, to Anthony Metcalf, 2 April 1887; Ten Years before the Mast, 73-74; First-hand account. “I personally heard him [David Whitmer] state in Jan. 1876 in his own house…in most positive language, that he did truly see in broad day light, a bright, and most beautiful being, an ‘Angel from Heaven,’ who did hold in his hands the golden plates, which he turned over leaf by leaf, explaining the contents, here and there. He also described the size and general appearance of the plates…. -David Whitmer, reported by Thomas Wood Smith to the Editor, Fall River (MA) Herald, 28 March 1879; reprinted in the Saints’ Herald 26 (15 April 1879): 128; Second-hand account. 'He said, “Yes, I did see the plates on which the Book of Mormon was written. I did see the angel, I did hear the voice of God, and I do know that Joseph Smith is a true Prophet of God, holding the keys of the Holy Priesthood.” 'Later Mrs. Sariah Steele, of Goshen, Utah, spoke and said that she was the oldest living granddaughter of Martin Harris and that she was the daughter of Martin Harris, Jr. She told of her experiences with her grandfather whom she knew when she was a little girl. She had sat on his lap may times and heard him bear fervent testimony to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon record and of the part he played in connection with the testimony of the three witnesses. She said that anyone who had ever come in contact with him and had heard him bear his testimony was thoroughly impressed with his sincerity and with the truthfulness of the story which he told.' historyharrisfamily.blogspot.com/2011/11/last-testimony-of-martin-harris.html Both Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery died as member of the Church of Jesus Christ in full fellowship. Although David Whitmer did leave, his went to his death bed still testifying of the reality of the Golden Plates. Saints Unscripted has made videos on all the witnesses with plenty of more citations. Video: Did the Eight Witnesses actually see the golden plates? kzbin.info/www/bejne/iaKTnJiIiK-GnqM Video: Did Martin Harris actually see the golden plates?: bit.ly/2QUX8p3​ Video: Did David Whitmer actually see the golden plates?: bit.ly/3h0IirB​ Video: Did Oliver Cowdery actually see the golden plates?: bit.ly/3lQHUzw​

[@latter-daywatch]

There are ancient ramparts and things all around the hill. And tons of mounds that show this was the site of an ancient defensive battle. I do have to push back with this content creator when he says there is no evidence that Joseph Smith called this the Hill Cumorah. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[@protochris]

Yes, Orson Pratt testified the NY "hill Cumorah" was the same Cumorah in the Book of Mormon.

[@joshuafusselman3323]

Could you point me to a source?

[@treykellypodcast]

Super good point. I believe in the heartland theory and I actually think this makes that theory even stronger.

[@nocturnalrecluse1216]

!Literally seven minutes from my house.

[@johngeo8531]

There is a reason why historians and archaeologists do not regard the book of mormon as a work of ancient American history.

[@leahhumberstone1010]

@@bigd322 That is a logical fallacy.

[@leahhumberstone1010]

@@bigd322 You said archeologists and historians are spirit-denying, Christ-rejecting, church-hating reprobates. That is a logical fallacy. There are a large number of archeologists and historians in this world who are spiritual, believe in Christ and do not hate churches and have principles. 😊

[@leahhumberstone1010]

@@bigd322 I never said, “The Book of Mormon is false because we haven’t found....” I was pointing out what you said was a logical fallacy.

[@davidsnell2605]

@@bigd322 your comment calling a certain group of people reprobates (among many other things) will be removed. Please interact with people respectfully (not matter how they may interact with you), as per our community guidelines, or we'll have to ban you, which I certainly don't want to do. Please consider this your official warning.

[@a.walters123]

Ex Mormon, like many here. If you dig deeper into knowledge, history, and even the church’s own history, you’ll find the answers: or lack thereof. What was taught to me as “anti Mormon literature” is factual, historical information and science.

[@Spark_Horizion]

I can say the same thing for Islam and the Bible so don’t be super biased look

[@a.walters123]

@@Spark_Horizion I’m pretty sure you misunderstood my comment.

[@stanmayo1805]

"The Office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church has explicitly confirmed that the Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon is in New York. Almost every LDS Prophet since Joseph Smith has reiterated the same narrative."

[@davidrawlings1176]

Wrong. Moroni told Joseph that the record was written and deposited in a hill not far from his home. David Whitmer said he learned that the hill was called Cumorah while traveling to Fayette from harmony with Joseph and Oliver in 1828 . Also, Lucy Mack smith in her book knew the name of the hill when Joseph got the plates. The University of Buffalo has a million artifacts from the area and local farmers have uncovered artifacts for 200 years. It’s a very well known fact. cumorah was the final battle but their were many that led up to that so that’s why there arn’t a million casualties in the area. casualties of war who lie on the ground and not buried are exposed to the elements decay much faster. There weren’t any skeletal remains of those who perished in the titanic disaster.

[@davidrawlings1176]

The one and only Hill Cumorah is in New York. That is certain.

[@larryballard4475]

Theories.....assumptions.....speculations.....interpretations....most Latter-Day Saint scholars believe....And yet the brethren at the top remain silent on the issue? Why?

[@nerd_patriot_disciple]

Because knowing where the events of the Book of Mormon took place is not critical to our salvation and exaltation. Believing and following what the Book of Mormon teaches is all that is critical. All the theories and speculation is interesting and cool to learn about but that is all.

[@larryballard4475]

@@nerd_patriot_disciple They used to hold a pageant at the Hill Cumorah. Now they don't. The pageant included the last great battle of the BoM. I was taught that the Hill Cumorah in NY was the one where the plates were found and where the last great battle was fought. Maybe you do not need clarification regarding such a basic issue. Others do. I am interfacing with a brother who claims the Mezo American theory and is convinced that it is there. This is a really big thing for him and an old friend of mine who does not buy in to it. It is divisive for them. Since the historicity of the BoM has been brought into question by many, it would be nice to get clarification regarding the actual whereabouts of where this hill was. Just suggesting that if the Q15 have revelatory power, they could clear this thing up in a heartbeat as I am seeing this becoming a divisive issue for many. Is this not a legitimate and valid question and wonderment?

[@hrv4908]

As they say: "The devil is in the details."

[@jeffturner8927]

So what was the Hill Cumorah pageant all about? Such an enjoyable event by all appearances.

[@brettmajeske3525]

The pageant was not about the hill itself, but the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

[@Hundmist]

The works of Jonathan Neville help to clarify this. Search the early history of the Church, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. What did they say about this? It’s pretty clear.

[@Herosoulstone]

why did they end up calling it the hill Cumorah even though the book of Mormon Explicitly told them that it wasn't the hill Cumorah lololol XD I never read that verse hence why i have always been confused about the hill Cumorah.. lol Great Video.

[@ericateaford6019]

dang ur hot

[@ericateaford6019]

can i date you

[@davidsnell2605]

As per the video I think they simply misread the Book of Mormon, or they made the assumption (not corroborated by the BoM) that Moroni wandered for 30+ years only to return back to the hill where the rest of the plates were buried, to inter the Book of Mormon. You'd think that if that had been the case, Moroni would have mentioned it. But if that's what makes the most sense to people, more power to 'em.

[@Herosoulstone]

@@davidsnell2605 interesting! were the 116 pages, and the book of Mormon we have today buried in the same hill or no? I'm unfamiliar, also thanks! are they the same record, I'm always learning, always a student.

[@davidsnell2605]

​@@Herosoulstone Great questions. The 116 pages were part of the "golden" Book of Mormon plates, they were not a separate set of plates. So yes, they are part of the same record, and yes, those would have been buried as part of the Book of Mormon in the New York hill.

[@carlbaumeister3439]

Excellent!

[@BrianTerrill]

There is also an entire island narion off the coast of Africa called Comoros with Moroni as its capitol. I believe God was okay 2ith the saints calling the Palmyra hill Cumorah not because it was where Mormon hid the records but because its place in the Restoration and its meaning Arise and Shine

[@sarahfisher9472]

I'm confused are you or whoever is reading this, is this guy an active member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? If because he really seems to support it, but yet did he say that the book of Mormon is fiction?

[@Hustada]

No, he was reading some text on the screen. Having said that, the book of mormon is indeed a piece of fiction.

[@sarahfisher9472]

@@Hustada The book of Mormon is not fiction

[@Hustada]

@@sarahfisher9472it absolutely is. Joseph Smith was a conman and the book is an obvious fabrication based on a mixture of current geography, king james English, and other nonsense.

[@cdmbcgm]

I always find members' opinions on this interesting. For me, I have not seen any phrophet or apostle of God say the Hill in New York was not cumorah, especially those apostles taught by Joseph. Joseph Fielding Smith and Mark E Peterson warned about the philosophies that were moving the Hill Cumorah south. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not recognize any other location. If you still want to believe the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. My question is, where is the evidence for semitic people? Maybe read the Popolvu and read about all the Mayan heathen God's and their origin story from a place called MU. They seem to have more likeness with Hindu and Indonesia ancient cultures than Isreal. The only artifacts that have Hebrew were found in North America. I'm not saying this is good evidence, but the evidence in Mesoamerica doesn't match what I read in the Book of Mormon and suggest anyone study this for yourself.

[@richardbarrow4620]

Where the Nephite civilization perished there will be a layer of artifacts. Look at the concentration of arrowheads, axeheads, and kitchen stoneware they took out of Dismal Swamp. (KZbin: you won't believe all the Indian artifacts) this concentration of artifacts speaks of a massacre. The hill with the plates has no such layer. The Nephite army sought a location where they could gain an advantage over the Lamanites. A much better tactical location would be Hopewell New York with it's Hopewell fort, steep cliffs, and row of 5 long lakes. Wherever it is, look for the layer of artifacts. Also take a look at "The Great Circle" in Ohio. It's a circular fortification with the ditch on the inside. It's made to keep people in. It's in the middle of Bountiful.

[@salt1956]

Yet the LDS pageant has always been held at the New York Hill Cumorah.

[@kurtmathews6405]

I think this needs an update now and some more explanation

[@brettmajeske3525]

Why?

[@davidrawlings1176]

You need to do more research on what those who were in a position to know had to say.

[@Pumptconcretepumping]

Kinda like the lds church believes the Garden of Eden is in New York and Missouri.😂😂😂

[@AmericanFire33]

I think the Monuments of Western New York by EB squire well documents the fall of a great people who build many small fortifications in the western part of the State before being brutally murdered by the enemies.

[@Neil-from-Oz]

The last official statement by the LDS church was holding to the New York sight as being Cumorah.

[@michaelbennett7561]

Possible it there was more than one "Cumorah"

[@peterbuko8818]

Yeah but there wast Mentioned in Book of Mormon firts letter about golden plates but about god’s 10 commandments plates

[@Mcmj-ot4dt]

Did shoosz7 ever respond to this?

[@44hawk28]

Please listen to what joseph smith said about the places that the book of Mormon encompasses. At no time has Joseph Smith ever given a singular clue that it happened anywhere, but in what is known as the continental united states. Every place in mexico america that is a holy site has stairs. That would categorically remove it from having been the place of the book of mormon, where they followed Hebrew practices.American indian holy sites all have ramps just like the jews did. That was even observed by william penn himself as well as all of the holy sites that have been found just in the last forty years or so. Not only that cumorah is a large area of upper new york, And according to american indian legend comma if you would take the time to actually ask them some questions. They state that many battles occurred up there in that area and that a group of them ran down and got caught in the land of kentucky which literally means river of blood. Where the last battle is actually occurred, but the major battles that ended knee fight or the previous lighter skinned people actually happened in the area of cumorah, not at a Is singular hill. I do wish you would stop doing videos until you've studied the subject a little bit longer.

[@radone5896]

Jonathan Neville has completely convinced me you are wrong. I hope you will reconsider.

[@Flintlock1776]

Does anyone else not wonder why there is always a convenient, if not a tortured and strained reason that not one shred of evidence exists, anywhere, for any of this? I mean seriously; it's like someone just made it up.

[@DavidNellTheHarbinger]

D SNELL IS A BOSS

[@peakguitarists8222]

This makes a lot of sense. Really cool and I definitely learned something today. Isn't there a record of Joseph smith and some other church leaders of the time returning the plates and seeing more plates however?

[@brettmajeske3525]

There is a second hand account of a dream or vision of more records, but nothing from Joseph himself.

[@Herosoulstone]

I was curious about this myself, where does this account come from? can somebody give me the archives or records for this?

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@Herosoulstone A few months before he died, Brigham Young is attributed as saying that Oliver Cowdry told him that Joseph told Cowdry about a hidden archive of Mormon's records in the Hill Cumorah. While this account makes it clear that Brigham Young apparently believed the two hills were the same, it is unclear whether Cowdery is talking about a Vision or a physical visit. Joseph never recorded such a visit. Cowdery never recorded the alleged conversation. Cowdery's Letter 7 makes it clear that Oliver also assumed that the two hills were one, but he never explains why.

[@brettmajeske3525]

I picked my word choice carefully because the statement attributed to Young was not from an official source. As with many statements attributed to Young, it is itself an unconfirmed second hand record. A second statement of a third hand statement that is itself unclear, not the best proof in the world.

[@Herosoulstone]

@@brettmajeske3525 interesting, so this isn't the hill Cumorah based on the scriptures itself, if this is true, perhaps there were other records with the book of Mormon in the hill that the record was found. But your definitely right, there no real strength in this statement. (for me at least, it's hard to tell.)

[@kingimatthews4481]

Such a sad, sad SAD group of people so lost and floundering grasping with anything and everything they can find to legitimize the Book of Mormon., with the hope of emblezzeling the saints money through greedy titthing, who dont give ^3##2@se

[@billiondollarsworthofgame]

The hill cumorah is in central or south American

[@lydiasalmond6942]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure hey definitely found ton of weapons and artifacts made of steel down in Mexico. (Along with the horse and elephant bones.)

[@MadTopHat1]

Any horse bones from 400 AD? Mental gymnastics go!

[@lydiasalmond6942]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure they found ton of weapons and artifacts made from steel down in Mexico. (Along with the horse and elephant bones.)

[@llamatown8160]

If the Doctrine and Covenants says the hill is Comorah, and D&C is just as much scripture as the Book of Mormon, then why are we having this discussion? The hill that Joseph Smith found the plates in (according to the D&C) is the hill Comorah, but the hill that Moroni buried the plates in either was or was not the hill Comorah (according to the BoM), so putting two and two together, the hill Moroni buried the plates in WAS the hill Comorah. Thus, it is also the place where countless arrowheads, spears, and swords should be found too. Unless God took them all to heaven for some reason, these weapons of war never existed and the Book of Mormon is historically false.

[@adamfoster3493]

So you’re using the Doctrine & Covenants ( a book you believe to be uninspired and false) to prove that the Hill Cumorah in New York is where Moroni ( a prophet you believe to be fictional) buried the plates (the plates you believe to be fictional), is the same hill where the final battle (a battle you believe is fictional) happened at the end of the Book of Mormon (another book that you believe to be false) to prove the Book of Mormon false by way of there being particular missing artifacts that you assume should be found around an ancient American battlefield, including the number of artifacts that should be found. Got it. What an argument! Fallacious, full of assumption and bias, but what an argument!!

[@whizwhitney]

@@adamfoster3493Your response is as stupid as anything I’ve seen on KZbin. You totally missed the point he makes.

[@sraveiryorkshire5770]

Did you watch the video? Joseph called it Cumorah BECAUSE everyone else was, not because it WAS Cumorah.

[@sraveiryorkshire5770]

@@whizwhitneybe kinder and read my response.

[@llamatown8160]

@@adamfoster3493 Adam I believe in the spiritual value of the Book of Mormon. I was raised Mormon and I will likely never leave. I just want to make sense of this inconsistency. If the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants is not the same hill Cumorah from the Book of Mormon, shouldn't there have been a distinction made between the two? It's not often two places are coincidentally named the same thing, especially a name so unique. I am trying to understand what your argument is Adam but it seems more like an insult than anything. If the Church is true then both the D&C and the BoM must be true because the Church claims they are, so looking for inconsistencies within them is a valid and not fallacious argument to make. As a follower of Christ, please be more respectful with your responses just as he would. Like I said, I believe in the spiritual value of the BoM. I have read it several times and there are recognizable truths in its pages. However, I have yet to find valid explanations for the historical, linguistic, and contextual inconsistencies within it.

[@TP-vu3tc]

Mormon said the word "Cumorah." Moroni said the word "Earth."

[@warriorhealth2172]

@Saintsunscripted You should have done more research before making this video...Joseph Fielding Smith (prophet) as well as half a dozen other Apostles have declared that "hill Cumorah" is indeed the same hill mentioned in the BOM. They further say the Jaredites also fought and died there earlier and called that same hill "Ramah". So were they lying? Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith-"The Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon" Its all there...Joseph Smith Foundation, Our own church history sites ect...

[@davidkepler9994]

Dieter uchdorf said sometimes the church got it wrong. So lying? Doubtful. But wrong? Sure. Brigham young talked about men living on the sun, president hinckley shared the story about three men dying in the river and being declared that their act e sured their place in the Celestial kingdom, which we now know isn't true. They are men, and they do their best.

[@KathyStrickland-nh9vx]

Nothing else lines either, in the BoM.

[@seans5289]

What archeological evidence would you expect to find if the Book of Mormon were fictional?

[@brettmajeske3525]

This question confuses me.

[@seans5289]

@@brettmajeske3525: Maybe I could rephrase it. If-hypothetically, of course-the Book of Mormon were fictional, would you expect less archeological evidence than we have for it?

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@seans5289 It still feels like some weird double negative. I admit I am not an expert, but that is not how scientific evidence works, not even in a softer science like archeology. Let me restate, if -hypothetically- King Arthur was fictional, would you expect less archeological evidence than we have for him?

[@seans5289]

@@brettmajeske3525: Here. Maybe my answer to your rephrasing will illustrate the aim of my question. Yes. If King Arthur were fictional-which I am currently convinced to be the case-then I would expect less evidence than should be found if the Arthurian stories were historical. Does that help?

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@seans5289 Well, that is a different question than then one you asked. I thought you were asking if there would be less evidence than there is now. And there is frankly lots of archeological evidence that there was an historical Arthur, even if not as described by Geoffery or Mallory. Likely the nameless warlord mentioned by Bede.

[@heberfrank8664]

Evidences of BoM people have been found in North, Meso and South America. This only makes sense if they landed on the coast of Chile, as the three Witnesses to the BoM claimed, and thus the BoM record takes place in the Andes but then around 50 BC in Hagoth's ships Nephites and Lamanites went to Meso and eventually North America. www.2bc.info/Misc/Evidences.pdf

[@heberfrank8664]

quote from: Observer and Telegraph Hudson, Portage County, Ohio Thursday, Nov. 18, 1830 "To convince the world that this record and prophecy is a Divine Revelation, three men, *****Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris***** have subscribed their names to an article in this "Book of Mormon," solemnly declaring that they saw an Angel come down from heaven, who showed them those plates, and made known to them it was given by inspiration, and "they know of a surety it is true," &c. &c. This new Revelation, they say is especially designed for the benefit, or rather for the christianizing of the Aborigines of America; who, as they affirm, are a part of the tribe of Manasseh, and ****WHOSE ANCESTORS LANDED ON THE COAST OF CHILI 600 YEARS BEFORE THE COMING OF CHRIST, and from them descended all the Indians of America." Why were the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon in 1830 saying that the Lehites "landed on the coast of Chili 600 years before the coming of Christ"? Can we honestly leave out the possibility that their testimony was correct? You can read the above in context here: www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/miscohio.htm

[@heberfrank8664]

Here is a link to a few excerpts from a 1892 book about travels in Ecuador. The writer Whymper is talking about stone stars with holes in the middle that are found there. They are called today macanas. Many believe they are from ancient weapons that originally had a wood handle. Whymper says: "They were found EVERYWHERE between Ibarra and Riabamba, and became embarrassing by their very quantity." "The NUMBER of these objects that I collected was so much a matter of surprise to Ecuadorians as it was to myself. " "Yet these objects were more numerous than any other kinds which were obtained, and are found EVERYWHERE." Ibarra is a city just north of the hill Cumorah of the Andes model: Cerro Imbabura. So these stones that appear to be from ancient weapons are EVERYWHERE along the Qhapaq Ñan[ road system 132 miles south of the hill Cumorah to 8 or so north of it. 2bc.info/Misc/Whymper.pdf

[@stanmayo1805]

Let me get this strait... you don't know where the "real" Cumorah is and thus have no evidence that a battle took place in this imaginary hill?

[@richarner3856]

There must be two Hills like there were two Darrens on Bewitched

[@Pharm40]

America’s Destiny Marion G. Romney In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred IN THAT VICINITY some twenty-five centuries ago-events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation.

[@davidsnell2605]

Yes as per the video there have been many leaders in the past who believed the New York hill was the same Hill Cumorah as mentioned in the Book of Mormon. I think these views were an honest mistake, but you're certainly free to come to your own conclusions.

[@alanabills5370]

“Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at or near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 175

[@brettmajeske3525]

Well he wasn't an Apostle when he wrote 'Mormon Doctrine', and later admitted he got many other things wrong. In spite of the name, the book was never officially accepted, it was always just McConkie's personal opinions.

[@alanabills5370]

@@brettmajeske3525 They're all opinions.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@alanabills5370 Well David Snell already admitted that several prominent members assumed the two locations were the same, with no other evidence than tradition. I am not sure I understand what McConkie adds to the discussion.

[@alanabills5370]

@@brettmajeske3525 I don't think you understand it, either.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@alanabills5370 No I do not, since it isn't not clear to me what you are talking about or why you brought up McConkie in the first place if you understood his comment was a non binding personal opinion.

[@rickyodom1201]

lidar might real some thing but bodys were problemly cared off

[@Hanshotfirst6688]

Funny how mormonism changes so much. So much for the "one true church"

[@GuidoMosquito]

I lean towards the heartland theory and suggest that even though the hill that the plates were buried is not the Hill Cumorah, the Hill Cumorah is still located in North America. It is quite clear from the reading that the BoM does not happen in Central nor South America but that it takes place only in central and eastern North America.

[@Pharm40]

The Last Words of Moroni Mark E. Petersen As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, LOCATED IN what is now the western part of the state of NEW YORK.

[@davidsnell2605]

Yes as per the video there have been many leaders in the past who believed the New York hill was the same Hill Cumorah as mentioned in the Book of Mormon. I think these views were an honest mistake, but you're certainly free to come to your own conclusions.

[@Pharm40]

@@davidsnell2605 View my post on a quote from L.Tom Perry (posted above). Did he TOO make a mistake?

[@davidsnell2605]

@@Pharm40 Sorry I'm not able to find the quote you're talking about. Feel free to quote it in a reply if you have it on hand. But I see no reason why L. Tom Perry also wouldn't be able to make an honest mistake every once in a while.

[@Pharm40]

@@davidsnell2605 The United States is the PROMISED LAND foretold in the Book of Mormon a place where divine guidance directed inspired men to create the conditions necessary for the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Tradition of Light and Testimony By Elder L. Tom Perry Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Ensign December 2012

[@davidsnell2605]

@@Pharm40 Gotcha, thanks for providing that. Yeah unfortunately the debate over Book of Mormon geography often turns into a game of just finding as many quotes from general authorities as possible to support your position. For example, for a long time church leaders favored a hemispheric model of Book of Mormon geography... Ezra Taft Benson: "To the Latter-day Saints the Promised land, the land of Zion includes all of North and South America." B. H. Roberts: "The Book of Mormon teaches that the two American continents [North and South America] are a promised land, consecrated to righteousness and to liberty, and especially dedicated to the seed of the Patriarch Joseph, son of Jacob, of Bible fame, and to the Gentile races, who shall in the last days be gathered to the land as well as the descendants of Joseph." Spencer W. Kimball: "Now you folks of South America: you have always lived in Zion. One of the Brethren said that Zion was all of America and that it is like a great bird with two wide wings: North America and South America." More Spencer W. Kimball: "With some of the Brethren we have just returned recently from the area conferences in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and in Buenos Aires, Argentina. In that southern world of Zion we reminded them that Zion was all of North and South America, like the wide, spreading wings of a great eagle, the one being North and the other South America." Reuben Clark Jr.: "While the scripture text itself comes from ancient Israel and Palestine, yet it has deep and vital meaning to and for us of this land - the land of Zion, the American hemisphere . . . . It is this fact and purpose, the building of Zion on this hemisphere, which is Zion, which seem to be the dominant elements in all God’s dealings with them who possess the land." I would be happy to provide additional quotes from other authorities if you'd like. But the point is, no matter which model you choose, there will be general authorities you must necessarily disagree with. Thus, I don't find statements mined to support your conclusion to be entirely convincing. Everybody can do that. But as mentioned in the video, the Church has no official position on the issue, so I have no problem simply agreeing to disagree with you.

[@gregoriosmith6994]

It is called faith because it's not fact.

[@richarner3856]

It's not fact..I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head with that comment

[@Stingray1965]

I’m usually in full agreement with the majority of your videos, but this one I feel falls dead flat on its face and ignores documented accounts that the hill cumorah is the hill in New York. Letter VII written by Oliver Cowdery, that was published in the Times and Season, during the time Joseph Smith was the editor very clearly shares that the entire Nephite nation was destroyed at the hill in New York. So your claim that Joseph Smith never accepted this is completely FALSE. How can you just explain this away? It seems to hold more validity than your “assumptions”. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but you are usually more factual than this. I feel this video is just very sloppy work.

[@paulj.elliott2112]

Thank you! You are absolutely correct.

[@calebscoville2585]

I'm still amazed that Moroni travelled that far.

[@Nerukenshi1233]

It took him like 30 years. I would be upset if he went back. Like a big ol' circle

[@andrewparker2751]

There have been several caravans of people migrating from Central America to the Southern US over the past decade. In most cases, they made the journey in a couple of months. Despite some of the modern conveniences (food and water mostly) and setbacks (border crossings, etc.), they are still traveling by foot. Moroni may have made his journeys by horseback, or with a cart-we don't really know. What is known is that traveling thousands of miles by foot is not unheard of, nor is it a lifelong endeavor. He may well have made more than one trip!

[@showflix7552]

@@andrewparker2751 He rode his tapir lol.

[@Pound_Shift]

He didn’t , He is a made up guy so a fake prophet could have sex with many women