Heavenly Mother, The Tree of Life, and 1 Nephi 11 Symbolism and Context

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

I strongly believe that ALL OF US will be greatly surprised and extremely amazed when we learn and see things the way they really are and have always been.

[@ggrace1133]

I love this comment! I think you’re spot on!!

[@caguas97]

Speaking of Temple visions following a pattern of the pre-mortal council, I discovered the following parallels when I was going through the Garden Story the other day. Interesting Parallels In pondering over the drama which is the Creation/Garden/Fall, I found some interesting parallels between what we understand of the Grand Council and the Garden. Grand Council: - Pre-mortal existence - God was present. We walked and talked with Him. - God presented a plan. - Satan presented an alternative plan. - Satan cast down. - A Savior would be provided - We left to enter mortality Garden: - Pre-mortal existence. - God was present. Adam and Eve walked and talked with Him. - God gave instruction and commandments, a plan. - Satan presented an alternative. - Satan cast out. - A Savior was provided. - Adam and Eve left the Garden to enter mortality. I won't go so far as to say that these narratives are describing the same events, but they certainly seem to be in parallel, or that one serves as the type for the other.

[@kimhulbert8449]

I love this parallel. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[@rconger24]

Happened in parallel? Two points of view of same events? One on earth the other in the heavens.

[@connectionstochrist700]

I love that God teaches us to "ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you" From the time we are born we ask- cry for mother, seek- nourishment from her breast, knock- on the floor as we learn to crawl and walk(opening the way for more experiences) with her excitement, encouragement and guidance ask along the way.

[@lawpenner]

You are right. Two stories of the same event

[@bumpercoach]

the enemy lies some fall for it more than others

[@paulblack1799]

I like how the angel didn't say, "Go get a theology degree" or "You haven't studied it out in your mind enough". He kept saying "Look! See! Behold! Here is your answer." No wonder Nephi liked plain and precious things so much.

[@noskalborg723]

Whenever i am told such things as "go get a theology degree" i hear "Go get a theology degree from a school of men teaching doctrines of men."

[@tylerronan6961]

I love how we are supposed to pretend that this story is a Smith family dream/story…BOM has tons of value if you really look at the text. If you try to hold it as a historical document you will come to the same conclusion as BH Roberts…

[@noskalborg723]

why can't it be a historical document AND honestly helpful?@@tylerronan6961

[@paulblack1799]

@@tylerronan6961 You lost me. I'm supposed to pretend something??? And I will come to someone else's conclusions?

[@roncondon1475]

D&C9:8-9 God gave us intellect to. Use our minds to. reason study information/ knowledge (objective) then ask God for wisdom/ discernment in applying that knowledge . Faith is NOT Blind (subjective) my friends.

[@caguas97]

The other day I got into a conversation with a friend about a couple of gospel topics: the use of trees as metaphors for people, and things that are lost in translation. He said he had read an article recently, promoted by the Maxwell Institute, that we catch a glimpse of Heavenly Mother in Nephi's vision of the Tree of Life. It's intriguing. Let's go to 1 Nephi 11. In this vision, Nephi is shown this Tree of Life. 8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree… 9 And it came to pass after I had seen the tree, I said unto the Spirit: I behold thou hast shown unto me the tree which is precious above all. 10 And he said unto me: What desirest thou? 11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof Nephi is shown the Tree of Life. After seeing it, he is asked: what is wanted? Nephi desires to know the interpretation of the Tree. He is immediately shown the Mother of God, in this case, Mary. After a few more verses of instruction, we see the following: 21 .... Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw? 22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the love of God. Here's where the conversation turned to where things can be lost in translation. We also spoke about how we can overlook meaning simply due to the fact that we have read the scriptures one way already before, and have a built-in bias the next time we read them. Is the Tree of Life the intangible love of God, like the feelings of love that God has for all of us? Or is the Tree of Life our Heavenly Mother... the person that God has identified as His True Love? If my wife is the love of my life, it would be correct to refer to her as "the love of Jason", would it not? This possibility, which I had totally overlooked until now. is a great example of how this can be lost in translation. If I were trying to translate this scripture into Spanish, would I translate "the love of God" to be "el amor de Dios"? or would I translate it as "La que Dios ama"? There's a lot to be learned by either version, but without proper diligence in the translation process, we may lose a lot of meaning. So now that I see the possibility of the Tree of Life as a mother-figure, there are a lot of fun new possibilities, especially when we use the Hebrew methods of prophesying of "the one and the many", and "as above, so below". Eve was so-named because she is the mother of all living, definitely a Tree of Life candidate. Mary, the Earthly mother of God qualifies, because the literal fruit she bore is so well described in chapter 11. But when it comes to THE Tree of Life, the Love of God, are we maybe catching a glimpse of our Heavenly Mother?

[@CwicShow]

Well said. There needs to be a lot more scholarship in this area.

[@jameseverett9037]

@@CwicShow a bit like Noah being "perfect in his generation" - can mean he was basically without sin among his era, OR, his genes had not been mixed or polluted like many others of his time. They were messing with genetic engineering, thus "all flesh is corrupt before me"......which could also just mean they were "corrupt" as in sinful. And the genetic engineering would be a good excuse to wipe out all the messed up species. But as Jesus said, before the 2nd coming, it would be "as in the days of Noah" and we are now messing with genetic engineering. Again.

[@confusedwhynot]

When you understand the importance of temple covenants and the sealing power you understand the eternal family of God. So many don't understand the importance of the union of man and woman. It is important to unite as one by the sealing power. A man is not above the woman or the woman above the man. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are united as one.

[@brentgeddes]

This is a part of the Westminster Confession: "There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory..." All the great religions, Jewish, Muslim and Christian believe in a similar being. This is a description of our cunning elder brother Lucifer. It's stunning that we sons and daughters have been deceived into worshipping something other than our heavenly parents. The restoration of the gospel restored this and many other plain and precious truths that had been taken from the scriptures. There is a reason the B of M teaches so much of Jesus. Loved the conversation.

[@kimtaylor7544]

Really loving these episodes with this guest! So much to ponder. Thanks Greg.

[@CwicShow]

You’re welcome.

[@germanslice]

@@CwicShow I think Lehi, and Nephi and Mary and other prophets had out of body spiritual experiences, Also known as visions in the scriptures.. I believe they were taken by the Spirit up off the Planet up into the Stars (exceedingly high mountain) to behold these divine beings that are there where God is busy walking the circuit of heaven right up at the top. Similar to Jacob's Ladder. I know Isaiah had a similar experience where he was LIFTED UP by the Spirit to come up into God's own abode and when he got up there, he said he felt very unworthy being amongst those celestial beings in all that intense light and glory in that pure and spotless environment which they dwell in.. We also know also the Two Lamanite Kings also had out of body experiences direct with God as well to drive the point more plain. I know Isaiah went up into God's abode to meet with God and the angles , Isaiah also said the sinners in Zion were afraid saying 'who among us shall dwell in everlasting burnings, who among us shall dwell in the devouring fire.' (reference to living with God in the Celestial Kingdom.) So I think I know what happened and what they saw when they were taken up out of their bodies.. Alma too had an out of body experience as well when he was brought up into God's presence while in his sins and that would torment him as that's what God's Glory does to those who come up into his presence not clean. Because he was trying to get back up into God's presence but each time he thought about drawing up to God to come into all his light and glory (for god is like a Day Star because he has so much light and glory) that light would begin to hurt him and be uncomfortable drawing up near unto it and would cause him to shrink with pain and anguish. But once Alma had repented then he was able to enter into God's light and glory during the out of body experience and experience all that intense joy. Alma 36:19-20. That is why Alma said of his own experience ýe would be more miserable being in the presence of that holy being then ye would be with the dammed in hell.

[@melindawolfUS]

I felt the spirit really resonate with me with many point of this. As a woman myself, I'm seeking the divine feminine, trying to learn about her to emulate her if possible. It's crazy how her symbols are hidden in plain sight! The Holy family is so beautiful to me, thank you for pointing out places that our loving mother may be found. And how much more obvious is our Heavenly Father's love for her that he places symbols of her at the heart and center of every temple, every important garden, every essential moment of salvation and resurrection. Even in baptism! Where I only saw the priesthood before in 'masculine' version of a spiritual birth, now I can see that the it was always the partnership of feminine and masculine. No baptism happens without that water immersion! Thank you, gentlemen, for handling this subject with humility and respect for our heavenly mother. I agree humans like to simplify too much! But the elegant balance of the gospel being between multiple equally vital beings and our salvation being both simple and complex as we learn to follow Christ... I think it IS the pattern we see in scripture and revelation. I think it's important that the gospel is it's both plain and simple truths as well as beautiful complexity all in one.

[@Dunlappin]

Wow, an insight just came to me as you were discussing the word shedding in the context of Christ shedding blood to save the world. Women also shed blood in the context of childbearing and in bringing life to the children of men. Love the dual applicability. Also another connection. If you look at the blood vessel system of a placenta it is shaped exactly like a tree. Pretty amazing!

[@larrainemoore1880]

Yes. Why is the tree red in one of the temple movies? I think they are trying to say something like this. Also mother giving birth is born in covenant. Very special meaning.

[@janfelshaw8217]

There is a beautiful song called In the Garden. If you think of Mary Magdalene, as the wife of Christ, then the words to the song, become a beautiful love song. “ I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses, and the voice I hear falling on my ear, the son of God discloses. And He walks with me and He talks with me and He tells me I am His own. And the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known. He speaks, and the sound of His voice is so sweet the birds hush their sing. And the melody that it brings to me within my heart is ringing. And He walks with me, and He talks with me and He tells me I am His own. And the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known. I’d stay in the garden with Him though the night around me be falling, but He bids me go, through the voice of Wo, His voice to me is calling. And He walks with me, and He talks with me, and He tells me I am His own, and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known.

[@ggrace1133]

Beautiful. I’ve always loved that song. What a sweet way to look at it. Thank you.

[@pdnwy]

I like this read-along & analysis format. We need more of these with various experts. Similar to Jordan Peterson's round-table over the Bible, these types of discussions are very enlightening for all.

[@mikelewis1095]

AGREED!

[@lauries.nicewaner3876]

​@@mikelewis1095I second that motion! I live by myself since my husband died in 2017 and I miss studying scriptures with others.

[@noskalborg723]

Jordan Peterson should invited a Latter-day Saint to that round-table.

[@ggrace1133]

There are several channels doing this on KZbin. Unshaken is one. Book of Mormon Central. Unshaken is doing New Testament right now though. Also, there are BYU round table BofM discussions from the 90’s on KZbin. All are scholars.

[@ggrace1133]

The mother is the one who actually bears the children/fruit. She carries while fruit buds and ripens. Her and the father’s pure love are born in the fruit/child. Perhaps every time God is mentioned, it means both husband and wife, mother and father.

[@ronpalmer2u]

Thank you so much for this enlightenment regarding Lehi's dream and Nephi's vision of the Tree of Life. I learned so much more than I understood before.

[@CwicShow]

Glad it was helpful.

[@MsMellowmarsh1]

Jesus was hung on a tree (1 Peter 2:24). What/Who “supported” Him through the crucifixion? The Tree, the divine mother!

[@omacookie]

Very little has been revealed about Mother in Heaven, but what we do know is summarized in a gospel topic found in our Gospel Library application. Once you have read what is there, you will know everything that I know about the subject. I wish I knew more. You too may still have questions and want to find more answers. Seeking greater understanding is an important part of our spiritual development, but please be cautious. Reason cannot replace revelation.

[@dankuchar6821]

Revelation is ONE method of finding truth. Studying something out in our minds is 'reasoning'. Revelation rarely comes without seeking and reasoning. Revelation often confirms what we have reasoned out. Personally, it is difficult for me to know where one begins and the other ends.

[@noskalborg723]

At 1:11:11 i realized a possible parallel between Heavenly Mother and Mary with Jesus at the cross; and the two mothers with the child at Solomon's court. I cannit say the nature of the parallel, but i feel there are connections of similarities and antitheses to draw.

[@Arantza_Condie]

Another great deep dive! Thank you for including the tree of life and other divine feminine symbolism. It's such a beautiful and ancient doctrine. Another reason I am forever grateful for the restoration.

[@faymadsen6182]

Yeah! Thank you Brother Matson so very much for doing this! So excited to hear this! Thank you Brother Val Larson!

[@CwicShow]

You're welcome!

[@eveadame1059]

@@CwicShow 🧐🤔 What if we are actually reading, THE BOOK OF MORE MOM? 🌹 It is interesting... I AM - MA I - MA'AM - MAMA - M AM A - manna - mama... Could it bee ZION who the BIBLE, is Gathering in Her Children Her Blood Descendants. Hope ewe enjoy a revelatory LABOR DAY 🦁🐝⚜️✡️

[@eveadame1059]

​@@CwicShow🦁🐝⚜️✡️ Talking about our HEAVENLY MOTHER ♀️it is interesting that some believe in a FIRSTBORN TWIN HEAVENLY DAUGHTER of JESUS the FIRST BORN TWIN SON - An Ancient Tile Mosaic recently found in Israel ✡️ has MARY MAGDALENE 🌙 and JESUS ☀️ encircled by 12 Disciples. Pictured on Internet Image (Article)called The Gnostic Gospel of Mary Magdalene - by James Bean. Pope Gregory wrongly called MARY MAGDALENE a prostitute in 1591. Shortly Bee Four The King James Bible came out in 1611. With the Catholic Church correcting, Pope Gregory's mistake (misunderstanding), calling MARY MAGDALENE - THE APOSTLE TO THE APOSTLES 🌙 and JESUS

[@eveadame1059]

​@@CwicShowLOOK - L👀K - EVE - EYE 👁️ GENE 🧬 SIS - SEE 👁️ SEA means MARY Mari-time Marine 🌊 WAVE means GAL ♀️ FEMALE ♀️ VENUS ♀️ Marine COPPER 🗽 That All share the Same Symbol, a Heavenly Circle ⭕ Over a Crucifix ✝️ THE STATUE OF LIBERTY 🗽 That the French Freemasons gave the American Freemasons - with JOSEPH SMITH beeing a 33rd Degree FREE MA'S SONS. Who Interpreted THE BOOK OF MORE MOM ♀️

[@eveadame1059]

​@@CwicShow GREAT OBSERVATIONS 🌹🌿 Genesis 1:27 KJV - So GODS created man in THEIR own image, in the image of GODS created THEY them; male and female created THEY them

[@ShellLeighSays]

That was just amazing! My lesson on milk and meat on Sunday talked about how there is meat out there if we want to find it. This is MEAT! I love it so much. So many great things to consider, study and pray about. Being a mother and grandmother is the greatest thing in my life. Mother is sacred and this just makes this even more clear to me. ❤ thank you both so much.

[@CwicShow]

So glad you enjoyed it.

[@michaelwilliamzitar8493]

I had asked a question on the 1st video with Val which he succintly answered to open up here. Very glad to hear the clarity and the support for the temple and of the prophets.

[@CwicShow]

Everything ultimately has to fall under the right "DBR" (order). This is theology, not doctrine. In the episode, we talk about how people can corrupt these ideas.

[@michaelwilliamzitar8493]

@@CwicShow yes, fully agree and understand the difference, I just hope we keep the clarity in front always. Appreciate your work, and Val's.

[@zionmama150]

1:09:00 after listening to this here and considering what was said before this point about Mary being the divine mother after the manner of the flesh as well as Heavenly Mother after the manner of the Spirit, it makes me wonder if Catholics just misplaced the symbolism of the divine mother and the mother of God in the flesh to be the same person instead of understanding the symbolism of it. Likely it was doctrine misunderstood after a while.

[@Steelblaidd]

Check out Margaret Barker's book the Lady in the Temple.

[@scalarwave8104]

This discussion was excellent and we loved it. Thank you for your efforts to understand and share!

[@mandalyn212]

I really love this, I have had impressions on my heart of our Heavenly Mother the last little while. What a beautiful message. ❤

[@psychlops924]

Part of me wonders if more about the Divine Mother were found in either the lost 116 pages, or the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. I agree with Val's claim that had the full knowlege of a Heavenly Mother was not restored via Joseph Smith was because it would have been too hard for the people of the time to understand and accept. They had a hard enough time accepting a living prophet and a new book of scripture.

[@kerstenlindhardt1653]

Beautiful, interesting episode! Thanks Val and Greg!

[@markeilertsen6619]

I was in the temple last week thinking over our gospel path and the one thing that stood out to me was where the tree of life went after the garden scene. Interesting that you now have this discussion.

[@kimberlyolsen9416]

This was awesome! I do believe Mary Magdalene was Jesus's wife. If he didn't first appear to his mother, it stands to reason he would appear to his wife. It makes me love him all the more. I'm going to have to listen to this one many times to grasp all the information you've given! ❤

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[@joybischoff9558]

Love this. I just looked up dyad and polymer. It's exactly how I saw the prayer circle but this is a perfect way to explain it. Thank you. Also, some ancient cultures taught that the summer solstice is represented by the olive tree, representing the unity of Zion, the Bride of God.

[@karicullimore9482]

My first temple experience was in 1981. In all of the temple movies that I can remember, at the end, Adam and Eve, with Peter James and John, go to water before they talk to one another. In one movie they actually wade through water before they have that last conversation right before the movie ends. I never knew what that symbolized.

[@janfelshaw8217]

I saw that too! I miss it too.

[@larrainemoore1880]

Yes, in the other version they just moved to a Grove of Aspen trees. Which also was wonderful because trees also represent heavenly mother and the largest group of Aspen trees in the world is called the Pando. It is in Utah but anyway, I love those versions as well, and I love the movies so much! They’re all awesome! we have leveled up in a lot of ways! And the restoration is not over!

[@kellherman]

Wow, thank you so much for this interview!!! My favorite of yours, and that’s saying something, lol. Is our society ready to hear more about Heavenly Mother? I guess time will tell 😊. Beautiful symbolism and analysis, thank you!!

[@parkcityprimarychoosetheright]

I absolutely have enjoyed and loved these podcasts. So good!!

[@CwicShow]

Glad to hear that!

[@Art65483]

Reinforces many of the thoughts I have had and gave me some new things to think about. Thanks.

[@tomasina10]

I had a quick lesson on what the secular world would/does say about ANY doctrine of a Heavenly Mother when I slightly alluded to the possibility that our relationships in this life are a recreation of relationships in Heaven . Why would God sanction for His children what He himself did not believe in ? I was immediately destroyed as a heretic making up “obscene “ views of God . I understood why this True doctrine is not front and center for those not prepared to hear it .

[@janetseamons2757]

Val is right on about it being Representative of our Heavenly Mother. Also she is mentioned in Mosiah 8 last verse, that she was worshipped!

[@twinangels9352]

This was a masterpiece.thank you.

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it. Great stuff!

[@whatsstandard]

20:00 It seems that Val is saying that JS put forward the doctrine of a HM, and I'd love to see those sources. From what I can tell we have no primary sources of JS ever teaching the doctrine. Not that he may not have, but that is a little more than I think we can say. Happy to be wrong on that.

[@jacobbowers7137]

You’re correct. There are ZERo primary sources across all the dispensations of Gods prophets writings and teachings. Respectfully to Val, he’s following the same pattern Christians in the fourth and fifth centuries by using scripture to drum up a creed. They did it with the trinity and Val is doing it with a heavenly mother. How are you seriously claiming that a heavenly mother was worshipped anciently Val? I cannot logically follow your thought process on this.

[@omacookie]

There was a conference talk on this not that long ago saying the same thing.

[@whatsstandard]

@@jacobbowers7137 I'm researching HM at the moment and doing an article about it.

[@rebeccaknudsen6190]

@@omacookie Do you know which one and where I can find it?

[@omacookie]

@@rebeccaknudsen6190 April 2022 talk by Elder Renlund

[@wendyfoster5579]

This fits so well with what Margaret Barker’s research shows on the divine feminine.

[@faymadsen6182]

Thank you, as men, for valuing & sharing the female part or balance in these eternal things. As a female, I long to know my eternal Mother better & my eternal identity better & my relationship to my Mother & my sisters. I feel it, sense it, but feel cut off, disconnected in a great sense from my eternal heritage. Knowing about Father isn’t complete. There’s this “black hole” next to Father. How do I relate to her that is unknown? We can know her or of her through personal revelation & through the temple, through the Priesthood. Thank you for helping to pave the way for us to receive these sacred truths to be revealed, restored anew, when we are prepared to receive. True Oneness then!

[@jameseverett9037]

Consider that if The Father and Son are 1, then surely the Father & Mother are 1, likely in an even greater sense. So your sense that Mother is excluded in references to the "Father" was your own conception, but has always been implied when God, the Father is mentioned. The next thing to consider is, given how badly this sick depraved world has profaned God, even made movies defiling the Son, uses His name regularly as a curse word, and tells filthy jokes about them both on stages, and in night clubs, what do you think these vermin would be doing with the idea of a Mother? I don't think God would tolerate that, so it's not surprising that He has said and commanded NOTHING in regards to Her. I could bring up other problems with the subject, which the world - even other Christian denominations have with it - but I don't want to give anyone any more ideas. They have a hard enough time with the idea that God actually made us in His likeness, Male and Female, as the Bible clearly states, but they can't even fully deal with that concept, and had to decide it's only "figurative", and that Jesus is a ventriloquist, prays to himself, asks Himself to forgive people while on the cross, and commends His spirit into His own hands, etc. If they think Jesus being our brother is such a terrible thing, imagine how they'll react to the idea that we share the same Mother, which has implications that cause them to lose their minds.

[@lyndasquires2860]

When you consider the council of God's established on earth in Genesis1, King Josiah and Helkiah changing that council to only one, and Lehi receiving a book from Jehoveh being commanded to leave Jerusalem to preserve the teachings of the council of God's, it makes it clear that the Heavenly Mother is also one with the Father and Jehoveh.

[@loveslazylapcats4039]

Thank you!!! I have believed this for years but never heard or saw it addressed before.

[@robinbyrd4430]

Awesome talk! ☺️💯🥰

[@doreenb.8928]

The Sacred Grove symbology blew me away…in a good way.

[@DianeRoman-bj5sg]

Great insights! Thank you!

[@OmahaAreaLoya]

Yes! Thank you for this!

[@CwicShow]

Yep!

[@barrybrooksby]

This was an interesting podcast and I heard a number of things that I've not considered before, so thank you for opening my mind to these scriptural/spiritual ideas that I'll ponder on. There's something I respectfully disagree with and understand differently. The first "guide" was not Jesus, rather the guide was the Holy Ghost. Here's why. We see evidence of this in several verses in Chapter 11. As Nephi sat pondering, he was "caught away in the Spirit of the Lord". Verse 2 "the Spirit said unto me", verse 4, "the Spirit said unto me", verse 6, "the Spirit cried with a loud voice". In verse 7, the Spirit, not Jesus says, "thou shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven, and him shall ye witness; and after ye have witnessed him ye shall bear record that it is the Son of God." If Jesus were standing in front of Nephi at this moment he would have already had the "witness", similar to the Brother of Jared. But it wasn't Jesus standing with Nephi, it was the Spirit, the Holy Ghost. In scripture, Jesus doesn't refer to Himself as "the Spirit". Jesus tells us that He will send us the Spirit, the Comforter, the Holy Ghost. Verse 8, "the Spirit said unto me", verse 9, "I said unto the Spirit". Jesus isn't and hasn't been addressed by prophets as "the Spirit". Jesus is addressed as Lord, God, Jehovah, Savior, Christ, Son of God, etc. I believe that had Nephi been speaking with Jesus face to face in this encounter, he would have said so and used a proper title or name for Him. Rather, Nephi has a uniquely spiritual, one-on-one experience to see and talk with the Spirit, the Holy Ghost. What an inspiring, amazing experience for Nephi.

[@avoice423]

It is interesting that the vision of Lehi / Nephi parallel the coming of Christ in the Americas. You have the most of darkness after the destruction and it over came some of the people, the people who had let go of the rod or the word of God. The fall of the great and spacious building was great. In the destruction many buildings fell killing many, also the constant theme of pride and arrogance bringing destruction, which it did. The wandering in the wilderness for 8 years, paralleled with the beginning of Lehi's dream. Also people being drowned in the river, many were sunk into the sea in the destruction. Mary Magdalene, it would make sense he would visit her to console her because she was His wife. But also as a test of faith to his disciples, only two ran to the tomb.

[@dalecash2236]

The command for husband and wife to be united as one flesh is critical to this discussion of Elohim being the union of Father and Mother he discussed here.

[@loveall101]

If you love this stuff, I totally recommend checking out the podcast, "The Ancient Tradition"...has fantastic stuff on the Tree of Life and the Temple...Ties the Tree of life directly to kingship, the anointing, myrrh, spiritual gifts, etc. A gold mine.

[@truefoodbeauty9767]

Bring Val Larsen back. I really enjoyed the depth of the discussion!

[@GrandmaKnightLife]

Very informative!

[@Crochet_bro]

I have a feeling that the reason we're told not to worship Heavenly Mother is because every time the covenant people do it devolves into paganism. The Israelite worship of Asherah is evident of that

[@kellyjohnson4578]

Wait, 1:13:21 so Lehi’s and nephis visions had similar symbols but the building was before representing the temple but in nephis it’s the opposite, a place where evil goes?

[@alexgyebiababio3253]

Thanks for this beautiful discussion. My problem is trying to connect Jeremiah 7 especially from verses 16-18. 1. Who is this queen of heaven and how is she different from our mother in heaven? I was once a Catholic and this scripture was one of the many confusion and errors i perceived was in the Catholic faith that made me left the church although I have reasoned with the Latter-day doctrine that we have heavenly mother if we have Heavenly Father. We can't be Children of God without heavenly Parent (Parent -Father + Mother).

[@janfelshaw8217]

This is so good. Very good food for thought.

[@CwicShow]

Glad you liked it.

[@24neight]

Seems like KZbin is really ramping up the ads lately. Thank you for the awesome content though!

[@noskalborg723]

Also! That "one and void" that Jacob spoke of applies to any universe devoid of true supernatural free agents. Which is how the fact that ANYTHING exists in this universe is proof of God, because not only do we have life, but we also have stable laws of physics, and having those two at once requires a God to maintain order!.

[@truthfox1844]

False traditions and corrupted cultures are immensely different to overcome. I think that is one reason why Heavenly Mother is so veiled. Traditions, cultures, and paradigms blind the mind and stiffen the neck. It seems that coming to Christ as a little child could be seen as coming to Him to learn His culture and his paradigm. Because children learn their traditions from their father whether for good or bad. Christ is the father of our salvation and is the best source to build a world view upon.

[@saspen3]

The other thing to note, is that in 3 Nephi 11 or 12 Jesus Christ actually explains what He means by the phrase "I and the Father are one". Further down He says, "The Father witnesses of me, and I witness of the Father, and the Holy Spirit witnesses of both me and the Father". That was the first time I felt the penny drop in regards to the challenging phrasing of what it means that Christ, The Father and the Spirit are one. Yesterday the scales seemed to fall from my eyes and new understanding took place in a very "plain as day" way. Surely Christ would witness of the Mother in the same way He witnesses of the Father and vice versa? Being a mother myself, there is no doubt in my mind that we have Heavenly parents, both a Mother and a Father, but there isn't a lot of plainness around the subject in scripture, whereas in our Latter-day revelations Jesus Christ is made plain to us throughout.

[@kathleenturley1561]

Please turn on the CC on your end...thanks

[@godsoffspring4195]

Kathleen, CC doesn't work during live streams. To get CC you have to wait for a time after the upload is finished. :>)

[@kathleenturley1561]

ok thanks @@godsoffspring4195

[@rolandsmith4394]

Is val saying that the concept of HM was "removed" from the BOM? Hmm, maybe there is a reason for that. Pehaps, not so glib. HM is real, but we *must* resist the urge to worship her.

[@ggrace1133]

I have always worshipped Her-she’s HF wife so they aren’t separate to me. When I pray to HF, I just assume She’s there. I don’t pray to Her directly by name…HM. But they are one so she’s just always part of my thoughts and in my heart too.

[@rolandsmith4394]

@@ggrace1133 on one level, I'm happy you embrace your womanhood. Sad, though when it detracts from your worship of the only God of Heaven, the Father.

[@ggrace1133]

@@rolandsmith4394 well He can’t be there without Her and they are equal partners. So I’m sure she has progressed to be as Godly as He is or they wouldn’t be equally yoked. My comment wasn’t about embracing my womanhood, by the way. It was about my honoring Heavenly Father’s beloved wife who is our Heavenly Mother. It’s okay if you don’t believe in Her. She believes in you and loves you more than words can ever hope to describe. Mothers are just like that…and She’s the perfect, most godly mother of all. And She in no way detracts from my worship and Love of Heavenly Father! He is the greatest of all Fathers and the most holy and divine. I pray to Him by name in reverence and devotion. But I just know She’s there by His side. They are the most sublime couple in all creation. How I love and cherish Them and will follow Their light forever.

[@rolandsmith4394]

@@ggrace1133 every prophet who originally taught this Devine doctrine, or added to it in any meaningful way practiced plural marriage. I believe it deeply, as you seem to. Understanding divine nature is essential to becoming godly. But, I find that most feminists would be infinitely more comfortable in a church like the Reorganized LDS (yes, that is still their formal name) with Emma worship. They have rejected Section 132. They do NOT believe in eternal marriage, or the sealing power.

[@ggrace1133]

@@rolandsmith4394 Hmm, that’s interesting. Thanks for sharing. I have never heard of Emma worship, I must say. As to plural marriage, Joseph told Whitney Clayton about a month before his death that he feared plural marriage would destroy the church and that he had been deceived about it. This makes sense because the name of the angel with the sword has never been named as have all other angels appearing to restore true doctrine. Neither has the message of this “angel” ever been recorded as scripture as have all other angelic messages pertaining to doctrine. Joseph never said section 132 was given to him by the Savior as were all other doctrinal messages canonized. I’ve studied polygamy in depth for 45 years. It has caused nothing but heartache and wars. No woman could be happy eternally only having her husband 1/3, 1/4, …1/10th of the time. That is not oneness nor deep, abiding true love. So I do not believe it has any place in terrestrial or celestial living. Time will tell. It isn’t for me so if it is required I will be spending my eternity tending to animals, forests, gardens and vineyards, and learning to play many musical instruments as well as how to be a better dancer. But I believe in the sealing power completely. I’m not sure we understand how it works in the eternities, but the Lord will lead us along line upon line. Of this I have no doubt. I don’t understand why you refer to feminism-that confuses me.

[@zionmama150]

24:12 the woman is also a symbol of the Church…

[@Steelblaidd]

1:15:14 something that Christ being killed on the symbol of the Queen if Heaven shows us goes back to the idea of the Mother as throne (which is all over the ancient near east, Isis is identified by her throne shaped headdress) Jesus' Crucifixion is the Moment he is literally Coronated King and Son of God in Power.

[@michaelallen6580]

Greg, Can you please give us some information on where we can access some of Val’s writing?

[@CwicShow]

www.interpreterfoundation.org

[@JosephMichaelLima]

Before the Atonement Jesus gave freely after he requires belief. Today our faith in what we believe bring us to Him.

[@cindybowles6311]

Fantastic!

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[@mpow1200]

Amazing content- this was paradigm shifting! So many thoughts, but I wonder (regarding the last few minutes of this episode) if part of the reason why God can’t visit certain kingdoms has to do with different resonating states with truth and reality? As stated, God is trying to help us to live in harmony with reality and truth in the same way he does. I wonder if this is how we get different kingdoms - depending on how harmonious we become with reality and truth, we might settle into different kingdoms or frequencies?

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[@gwendolynwyne]

1:23:37 I think this idea that the wife or goddess participates in the resurrection of her husband can be seen reflected in our temple liturgy, in which the wife gives her husband knowledge of her name. So perhaps he will be required to give that name as part of the resurrection, as one gives a password before being granted admittance to a restricted event. She would know if his answer was correct and worthy of the ordinance. We have presumed that is for the husband to call the wife forth, but there is space for another interpretation of that rite and I appreciate Val’s explanation here. Thank you for this interview, the flow was very good and you also gave him plenty of time to express his understanding and thoughts.

[@lindseyreyes983]

My gut reaction was to say that since resurrection is an ordinance, it would be performed with priesthood authority. However, men and women are both ordained to be holders of the priesthood. If the Tree of Life represents the feminine and the Tree of Knowledge represents the masculine, then maybe it makes sense that this ordinance of life might be undertaken by the feminine. I had never seen it this way, but I can see how it might be the case. What a lovely video and conversation in the comments section as well.

[@chucknelson1378]

Also the ten commandments indicate “Thou shall have no gods before me”…. To me it says worship the father for he is greatest but its also saying there is multiple gods.

[@nsellers8436]

In reference to the ongoing restoration, and not getting all off the truth until we are ready, this is spelled out in Jacob 5 when there is the restoration, or the final grafting back to the “mother tree”: 64 Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow. 65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and *ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft,* and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard. 66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore *ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad,* and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard. 67 And the branches of the natural tree will I graft in again into the natural tree; 68 And the branches of the natural tree will I graft into the natural branches of the tree; and thus will I bring them together again, that they shall bring forth the natural fruit, and they shall be one.

[@Steelblaidd]

Highly recommend the new books at Dessert Book. The Girls Guide to Heavenly Mother and the Boys Guide to Heavenly Mother.

[@saspen3]

Hi Greg, I'm also not entirely sure about the Heavenly Mother motif, though I can see it in the Lady Wisdom chapters of Proverbs and I did read a paper during our Book of Mormon CFM year, describing "Nephi's Asherah" and other brief archeological articles on the Egyptian motif of tree of life. My only hang up about all of this is like what I think you mentioned about a corruption. If Joseph Smith re-translated the Bible, and potentially restored some of the plain and precious truths that were removed, not just through the re-translation but also through the discovery of the Book of Mormon, why hasn't the plain and precious truths of our Heavenly Mother been made more direct in the same way that the Book of Mormon makes very plain, that Nephi and the prophets who followed him, knew that Messiah would be called Jesus Christ. You can't get any plainer than that. Yet nowhere in revealed scripture do we have any plain mention of even a title of "Heavenly Mother". Just a thought! But I enjoyed the podcast. It came at a time when was marvelling at the connection between Lehi's vision in the mount and Christ's appearance in 3 Nephi and the similar language and order of events that seemed to parallel one another or 3 Nephi actually being a fulfilment of the vision that Lehi had in the opening of the Book of Mormon. I think the placement of those two events are interesting and seemed to be literally connected as I read yesterday. Then your podcast seemed to open my mind further to more possibilities and learning. I'm looking forward to watching the previous interview to this one. I enjoy your content.

[@judycheney1031]

HEAVENLY FATHER BLESS

[@LisaPFrampton]

Nephi was not changed into a "god" while traveling with the Angel in his vision. He was transfigured. See: 3 Nephi 28:15; Moses 1:11.

[@HenryChoiOMD]

I don't understand how the plain and precious truth was LOST (as in; it was there, and then was removed). Who removed it? Was there a book that was removed from the cannon?

[@CwicShow]

There was likely a book added and others edited.

[@HenryChoiOMD]

@@CwicShow thanks for the reply. There is no evidence of such a book or the edit you are talking about right?

[@CwicShow]

@@HenryChoiOMD of course there is. 2 Kings 22:8-11. Also, most Biblical scholars believe this to be the case. King Josiah was part of the theocracy of the Deuteronomists. And most of those scholars believe that the “edit” is now found as a portion of the book of Deuteronomy.

[@TimField-l1q]

So as far as the alter... the witnesses sitting there are another male and female. Than the one praying knees at the alter and prays to God. I think I remember a different person would pray at the alter. Does this person praying represent Jesus going to the Father for us?

[@azxtra8381]

Hugh Nibley in his first Pearl of Great Price Lecture says that the Pearl of Great Price is the only book that restores what was lost from the original Bible. Heavenly Mother was never mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price, so obviously it was never taught and never an official doctrine put into place by Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. Does God the Father and Jesus Christ require spouses in Heaven, especially since they were always perfect beings? We require an eternal mate for exaltation, but does God or Jesus? They have never fallen, so therefore would not require a wife for exaltation. Besides, who would be their wife? Where are the "perfect" women? If so, how many wives do they have? Which one of their wives is our mother? If God is all-powerful, yet he requires an additional person to manufacture spirit children, then God would NOT be all-powerful. The Pearl of Great Price continuously says that God created everything spiritually before it was created physically. So, with so many opportunities to include Heavenly Mother, why didn't He? I believe that God the Father created our spirits and He alone. He testifies to this in the Pearl of Great Price. Heavenly Mother is a useless doctrine that does nothing to advance salvation in this life. It's just another doctrine introduced by Satan to confuse people and make women seek divine help from someone other than God the Father. I served my mission in Spain and the hardest thing we encountered was that so many Catholics prayed to the Virgin Mary and not to God the Father. I would say that 99% of women prayed to the Virgin Mary. They thought that the Virgin Mary was above Jesus Christ in rank because she was his mother. This heavenly Mother doctrine serves only to appease women and their desire to have a feminine connection in the Godhead.

[@CwicShow]

Actually, later in those same Pearl of Great Price Lectures, Nibley does speak of Heavenly Mother. And just because the Pearl of Great Price is the "only book that restores what was lost" doesn't mean it restores everything.

[@lynneb.2357]

Of course we have a heavenly Mother. That our Heavenly Father protects her at all cost, so she is not defiled here on earth as He has been, is no surprise. Families are Eternal. We will learn more when we are ready.

[@zionmama150]

20:07 the divine mother is Mother Earth?

[@rolandsmith4394]

SMH. How often does the dog return to its vomit. Jesus created the Earth. So he created his mother?

[@zionmama150]

@@rolandsmith4394 Jesus created the Earth under the direction of his father. Jesus was with the father from the beginning.

[@candalima3563]

Family, plurality. That’s it!

[@charlieluerssen273]

Look up woman at the veil. The Woman at the Veil: The History and Symbolic at the Salt Lake Temple.

[@sherriedix5837]

Interesting conversation. However, I feel like this is not something I need to focus on too much. Maybe I’m not ready but just feel like I don’t need to spend energy on this.

[@CwicShow]

That’s fine.

[@JonMadsen-rp5nu]

There is a lot, so a response is difficult. The golden calf in the days of Moses was symbolic of Baal. Baal of all pagans of worship was the greatest challenge of Israel for a very long time (over and over again). I have often wondered why? Baal was a demigod (human mother - God father). His life is parallel in many ways to Jesus Christ. Baal is killed in a battle against evil, but he is brought back to life (resurrected) by his consort Anath (with other names depending on the account - in the Bible she is called Ashtoreth. The name of Ashtoreth was also worshiped anciently as the consort to both El and Yahweh). We ought to tread carefully. There are many obvious differences, but some similarities may be difficult to differentiate.

[@CwicShow]

I don't think the calf has anything to do with Baal. The Israelites in had been in Egypt for generations, they didn't worship Canaanite gods. The calf was Jehovah.

[@faymadsen6182]

This was wonderful! 🧐🤔🤗 Thank you for discussing why Lehi’s family & others from the Northern tribes were in Jerusalem. Thank you for discussing Chapter 11 verse by verse. Gospel, priesthood, family, temple, symbolism, etc. I would enjoy your discussion of the Brass Plates & their great value in relation to these eternal concepts. I assume the Brass Plates were written in Hebrew, and a combination of Hebrew & Egyptian as history unfolded. What about the writings of Father Adam in the pure language? Didn’t Moses “translate” & “abridge” all the ancient records of Adam, Enoch, Noah, etc. as well as kept the ancient patriarchal genealogies found in the Brass Plates? I assume Lehi’s & Nephi’s reading of them prepared them to receive more revelations & understanding. I love that Nephi quotes from Isaiah from the Brass Plates! Why would Laban value the Brass Plates or did he keep them locked up as containing false teachings, being an “apostate” himself? I assume the Brass Plates would have included the Moses & Abraham writings that are now in The Pearl of Great Price… I don’t recall Laman or Lemuel reading the Brass Plates. They would have considered them false doctrine because of Josiah’s reforms? I assume this is where the 10 tribes’ records & the record of Judah or the Jewish records split…It did split here for Lehi’s family, for sure. How clear were eternal family doctrines in the Brass Plate records? I assume some revealed truths ancient prophets received were held back by divine commandment as we find that happening in Book of Mormon, Bible & modern day records for the people were not worthy or ready for them.

[@StephanieAQuinn]

fabulous!

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@StandforTruth712]

I found this discussion very insightful and compelling. I appreciated the qualifier that it would be heresy to begin a practice of worshiping and praying to a mother in heaven; however, over the past few years, a growing number of members have been and are doing just that even though the brethren in have denounced such a practice in conference. I think we should be careful of spectulating or suggesting doctrinal practices that may be instituted by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as part of the on going restoration. It is not helpful.

[@CwicShow]

Agreed. No doctrinal practices were discussed in this episode. Just theology and a study of history, the Book of Mormon, and the Old Testament. Really appreciate you watching.

[@LadyDisdain3]

So how does this follow with Israel following after the Canaanite goddess and committing whoredoms in the groves? This is who I thought Josiah was ridding from the temples. I mean there was a lot of evil going on within the Israelites following after Canaanite gods and committing horrible atrocities. Is the idea that there is a righteous Israelite version of asherah and the counterfeit version that’s getting mixed together in the scriptures? Or was just the worship of her led to wickedness? Just trying to understand. I like a lot of what was said here but when the cleansing of the temples is brought up and the name of the goddess you lose me a little bit. Because those groves were evil.

[@CwicShow]

I would suggest a righteous understanding and a corrupt version as well.

[@Posie1970]

I wonder where the daughter went? We have a father, mother and son... not pushing or demanding, just wondering. I have heard some suggesting holy ghost but I've also heard holy ghost is male?

[@rolandsmith4394]

Jesus was concieved in the flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit. Gotta be male.

[@Azriel640]

The Holy Ghost is male. Nephi is the only prophet on record we have that has actually seen the personage of the Holy Ghost and conversed with Him just before he sees the vision of the tree.

[@jacobbowers7137]

This comment is exactly why people trying so hard to bring a heavenly mother into our doctrine more than it is, is an evil and heretical idea. It leads people astray and people fixate on things that only exist based on obsession and heavy conjecture

[@jaredshipp9207]

​@@jacobbowers7137Again, a Heavenly Mother is part of our doctrine. "Our" meaning the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you don't believe that, you subscribe to some other doctrine.

[@jaredshipp9207]

The doctrine of the Church is the Holy Ghost is a man in spirit form who Joseph Smith said is waiting to take on a body.

[@ronevergrow8319]

Right!! Tzach/Tsach = white like in purity. Not Laban = White in color 🤷‍♂️ ( there's alot of verse in the Hebrew bible if you read in Hebrew makes the distinction ) . 26:32

[@GrandmaKnightLife]

If there is a gradation of things what does James 2:10 mean? James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[@CwicShow]

No one said obedience was a gradation. Bu Jesus himself answered the lawyer who asked, “What is the greatest commandment?” Jesus responds with the greatest is to love God and then there is a second greatest, to love your neighbor. So no gradation in obedience, but the law itself has gradation.

[@GrandmaKnightLife]

@@CwicShow thank you for clarifying that!

[@jaredshipp9207]

Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil = separation from God, fallen man, physical birth, mortality, death, etc. Tree of Life = God's presence (would obviously include our Heavenly Father and Mother, Christ, etc), spiritual rebirth, immortality, eternal life, etc.

[@mpress469]

The Tree of Life is the tree that produces fruit for physical sustenance (fruit, vegetables, nuts...). The Tree of Knowledge is the tree that produces fruit for spiritual sustenance (cannabis, Opium poppy, Salvia Divinorum, Iboga, Acacia...). "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it" - Genesis 3:6 Spiritually speaking (gender aside), matriarchal Christianity can begin with a fundamental understanding of the cyclical nature of reality (God). Represented by the snake in many creation myths, the living cycle has a trinity of a beginning (head), a middle and end (tail). As above so below, the sexes were created in the image of God's cyclical nature where Mother is the head and opening to all beginnings and Father holds the tail to all endings (through which the sowing of seeds allow for the next great matriarchal rebirth).The joining of the two (symbolized by the Ouroborus or the marriage ring) is the sacred union needed in assuring the creation and continuation of new life cycles. To speak of the present day God as "Our Father" is simply an admission to our collective positioning within the bigger cycle. As all mothers have direct experience with the creator quality of birthing, so is the direct experience of rebirthing the divinity within (baptism) belong to that which is spiritually matriarchal. (John 3, verse 3-8). Sekhmet statues (ancient Egyptian) carry most of their weight in symbolic memory of what was a mother culture dedicated to the direct experience of baptism. As the leg shaped hairlocks extend from maternal breasts to the womb of rebirth, the lioness's head proportions are such that they highlight the bust of a second animal figure. The Lioness's ears as eyes and eyes as nose (nostrils) brings to life the figure of a reptile. 'Neath the halo headress of the solar egg, the lioness's egg fertilization process being internal (Set) and the reptile's egg fertilization process being external (Setting), such being key components to the safety of entering the trans-egoic or "born again" state. The life threatening fear associated with the predatory nature of a lion and/or crocodile encounter are reflective of the intense ego death experiences associated with the transpersonal awakening process. In spiritually matriarchal times, illumination could be seen as wearing the false beard (ancient Egyptian funerary "ego" death mask) as the high state of cyclical self knowing; high awareness of both our upper matriarchal half and our lower (later) patriarchal half (compared with a mini lower body replica, an "as above so below" tail end beard extension); in full recognition of her civilizational Underworld; her inevitable cyclical destiny. The male pharaoh wears his beard tapered in reverse, indicating a pointing upwards towards the patriarchal head, divine representative of God's tail end cycle. Mary's anointing and wiping of Jesus's feet with her hair can then be seen as "Head to tail" (toe) imagery as she descends her matriarchal head to his patriarchal feet, thus reenacting the high understanding of the divine cyclical process. (John 12, verse 3) To carry the Ankh (now the female symbol ♀️) was perhaps to symbolically carry that upper and lower understanding. As the upper matriarchal womb symbolised the fertile birthing of civilization, below, the now Christian cross is carried to place emphasis on the lower (later) "End Times" Father principle of the great cycle. Lord Ganesha, the elephant headed Hindu diety, displays a cyclical head to trunk symbolism and points to the Mother head of his matriarchal elephant society. Ganesha (like the elephant) wears God's cyclical nature on his face. A whole temple was dedicated to Hathor (ancient Egyptian diety), who is the matriarchal "Uterus" personified. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gGHQYa2AiKp5gZI "See all women as mothers, serve them as your mother. when you see the entire world as the mother, the ego falls away. See everything as Mother and you will know God." - Neem Karoli Baba "My son, keep thy father's commandment and forsake not the law of thy mother" - Proverbs 6 : 20

[@LisaPFrampton]

I saw the Fruit of the Tree of the Love of God to be the Atonement and Plan of Salvation. The Love OF God, to me, is His Son Jesus Christ, His own Offspring who He sacrificed for all of us in order to save the rest of us. We have to partake of the Atonement and Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to receive Eternal Life. The Tree itself i saw as a mother as in Mary, being pure and white, bearing the fruit. Trees have to be nourished and have good roots and branches in order to produce good fruit. Out of the branch of David came the Savior. Which tree was the branch of David a part of? The Israelite tree. Anyway, i could go on but it's long and i have to run and don't have time finish it now lol

[@isabellehalvorson7359]

Maybe the first “condescension” means Mary is Heavenly Mother condescending to earth to be Christ’s earthly mother as well as the mother of his spirit. If so, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother would both be parents of Christ spiritually and physically.

[@SacaPuuntas]

Interesting idea. I was thinking the same.

[@rodman4250]

I love this discussion, yet if Mother or Father in Heaven wanted the Church in general to have more knowledge on our Heavenly Mother, wouldn’t it be much, MUCH easier and simple to understand?! Wouldn’t it be declared by the Prophet? This is a discussion that a small minority of the Church will ever participate in or understand. No slight against them. Just an observation about people in general.

[@CwicShow]

For now. We have to be ready. I think this is part of getting ready.

[@rodman4250]

@@CwicShow Perhaps in the future something will be revealed…and perhaps not. I guess we all need to be ready to accept future revelation OR be okay if it doesn’t come. As is, I believe those who are searching for this might be reading more into things than is actually there.

[@markeilertsen6619]

Maybe it’s one of those that have to be revealed to us just like the brethren don’t come straight out and say that the temple is the prototype and schooling of how to return to God’s presence in this life. Although I think once once you see that in the temple you see that they are very much trying to get that point across.

[@rodman4250]

@@markeilertsen6619 Maybe. Perhaps. It’s possible. I understand the efficacy in being open and continuing to search for all things that will ultimately help us return to Heavenly Father. I don’t know that this is a subject that falls into a category of affecting our eternal destiny. It’s very fun and possibly enlightening to speculate but I don’t know that it ultimately draws us closer to our eternal goal.

[@lyndasquires2860]

I've often thought that throughout scripture women were so revered and not spoken of much, that the lack of knowledge of Heavenly Mother was the tradition, sacred .

[@wquon2007]

I believe it's the indo Europeans who also had sacred groves. They seem to pop up frequently in a certain people history 😉

[@diligentdavey]

Greg, when a man and a woman unite in matrimony as husband and wife, don't we become as one flesh? If then, if and when so United, are we then no longer, but one? If so, we are then neither twain, but then one? And, if one, do we not worship our Hevenly Mother when we worship our Heavenly Father!?!

[@CwicShow]

Yes. I think that’s right.

[@4pedrosoares]

But what if it was true? The same thing that happened in the past, when God condemned worship of other gods (including Asherah), is the same thing that is happening now, with progressive sect members (including BYU professors) praying to a supposed heavenly mother.

[@mpress469]

We're not supposed to worship a male or female God because by doing so, we run the risk raising one gender while diminishing the other here on earth.

[@saspen3]

Actually, the Old Testament is a little obscure about Jesus Christ being Messiah, which is different to the Book of Mormon in BC times, because they seem to receive confirmation of Christ's name. But even though the Old Testament is obscure regarding Christ, if you read it with the intent to see Christ in the Old Testament, suddenly He is revealed in almost every page. Perhaps in that way, He is a parallel to Heavenly Mother? Hidden but in plain sight?

[@wayneorr6748]

For us to gain the highest degree of glory, you have to be married for eternity. Of course there is an eternal mother. If not why would that be necessary?

[@trevorhinkley2291]

surely with the billions of people lived and living on the earth since the days of Adam & Eve, aren't there surely to be Heavenly MotherS, and possible quite a few of them?

[@JohnSmith-lm9gr]

Can you imagine if Mary Mandolin wasn't Jesus's wife. Can you imagine what his wife would have said, "You went and saw who before me? That woman!?" No way. Had to be her.

[@rickburke4]

Theres something that needs to be persued here: Have you ever noticed that happy men submit to women easier! Yes their called whipped, or miserable but they appear happier than most men; Did these men realize that submitting to the Lord is like sibmitting to the Lords family too: The Lords Father and also Mother in Heaven: In other words: Thats macho: Its not football, sports bars and being a mans man! Submitting to the Lord means submitting to loving women in our famalies and the world , and digging deeper into the Book of Mormon, scrips and all good literature and films! Studying and always asking questions and keeping an open mind to more education so we can overcome the ignorance of the world!

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

It almost seems that you are trying to one-up each other.

[@CwicShow]

Nah. We just bounce things off each other. We have come to many of the same conclusions.

[@ryun3307]

​@@CwicShowI think what they meant is that the way you chose to communicate conveyed that. Nevertheless, both have some excellent ponderings.