Did Killing Micah Actually backfire?

[@Trash_Cat21]

John's hits harder than Aurthur's for me. With Johns's death, I thought he was safe when I first played the game.

[@magnum675]

Plus he was healthy and still would have a lot years to live his life with Jack and Abigail

[@purehollow]

John death was more tragic but in my opinion Arthur was more depressing because we spend so much time as him that losing him felt like losing a close friend

[@c3ntur10n7]

John’s definitely hits harder. We get to see that John actually does have the chance to live the rest of his life with his family. We then realize that killing Micah was a mistake. We see that he ignores Arthur’s last advice “to run and not look back”, what Arthur has done was in vain.

[@Trash_Cat21]

@@purehollow I agree.

[@Skalesthegoat]

I suppose with Arthur, it is more emotional, but you find solace after a while as you understand what he died for. With John's death, there is only the feeling of utter despair knowing Jack lives alone and the age of freedom and outlaws is over.

[@ashenking5013]

Difficult to say if John stayed put and left Micah alone. However, Micah would often boast that he doesn’t like loose ends. So there’s a chance Micah would have made an unannounced visit. Building a ranch so close to Blackwater, the very town where everything went wrong definitely wasn’t a good idea.

[@godzillazfriction]

he'd definitely find John and brutally kill his family and perhaps even r-word Abigail and Jack... Micah in the beta was going to be known as a full pdf file but in the finalised version of the game, there's implications/hints of it such as in chapter 3, where he wanted Jack to come fishing with him away from camp... in the beta however, he'd try to fully r-word Jack in the camp but Rockstar changed it because it made the gang seem way way way too incompetent...

[@WillyC300]

@@godzillazfrictionI hate Micah way more now so thank you for adding to the forever growing bloodlust.

[@gabrielohim154]

​@@godzillazfrictionI'm pretty sure that's from those fake 4chan leaks. The same ones that claim that in the introduction to Sadie in the prologue there was a fully animated r-word scene. So edgy non sense from some perverted sicko.

[@godzillazfriction]

@@gabrielohim154 bruh how was it from 'fake 4chan leaks' when im pretty sure it didn't even originate from 4chan... honestly give me a valid reason that a rockstar employee who leaked the development process at the release of the game turned out to be apparently 'fake' because 1. it goes to great details about how deep certain mechanics were such as the crafting, and skinning system etc. and 2. labelled certain ideas as just 'to0 eDgY' even for Rockstar which is entirely nonsensical since Rockstar shows lots of depravity by Humanity such as a child getting kidnapped by a cannibal and the rest is up to your imagination from RDR1... i could literally go on and on about Rockstar's showcase of ultra f'ed up stuff but it's too long of a list to do so... also labelling something as 'eDgY' isn't a valid form of criticism because of how it's been utilised to apparently criticise something without actually using any form of independent critical thinking...

[@godzillazfriction]

@@gabrielohim154 and it's incredibly hypocritical for having an animated r-word scene and equating that to whoever you're equating towards to be a perverted sicko despite you playing as an evil scumbag yourself who has voicelines for killing domesticated animals and lets allude that towards the concept of 'games causing violence' - since you want to display the nature of r-word but then you'll get labelled as a sicko for creating it, the post did talk about how one of the play testers enjoyed that specific scene but let's forget about how games don't actually cause violence because there's nothing science to suggest it despite that being nonsensical since ANYTHING can cause violence in a human, but that doesn't mean that games should get blamed for it as its another form of entertainment that is meant to be differentiated by your sub-conscience but that doesn't mean that games cannot represent the player in a way that makes the player hypocritical such as equating their own 'morality' to games such as RDR1 or even RDR2 etc.

[@c3ntur10n7]

Killing Micah was the Catalyst to the rest of whoever was in the Van Der Linde gang being killed. Micah was an informant for Milton and Ross and their best man to find things out about Dutch, so of course they want to know what his status is. When Ross and Archie found John I think they both waited for the FBI to be formed ( FBI was formed in 1908) to be able to have the power to force John into doing what they want. Being an FBI Agent would also give Ross more notoriety to feed his ego

[@charaznable9209]

Micah told Arthur he would kill John and Abigail and take pleasure in it so eventually John would have had to kill him or be killed either way. John knew what type of person Micah was and that it was better to get it over with by ambushing Micah on his own turf rather than waiting to be shot in the back later by Micah on his.

[@stevenwoods5787]

Combine that with what happened in the mission where you have to save Micah from jail, dude was so stuck on getting even he stopped in the middle of an escape to to slaughter a old running buddy and his ol lady, so we know he doesn’t let shit slide

[@godzillazfriction]

​@@stevenwoods5787ok, it's not like Arthur cared about that and just wanted to get out despite still assisting Micah through the whole way, Arthur is a hypocrite that doesn't want to cause major trouble but actively revels in it and has exceptions because he's the gang enforcer...

[@biscuit119]

​@@godzillazfriction What you mean Arthur didn't care

[@WillyC300]

@@biscuit119he really didn’t at that point in the game, Arthur’s morally repugnant in the early chapters, the only problem he had with it was it was reckless, ignorant and put the entire gang at risk he didn’t care that Micah killed a couple because he’s done that exact thing a number of times.

[@godzillazfriction]

@@biscuit119 i was mainly referring to the countless ppl they killed but primarily, Micah killing Skinny's or Norman's wife aka Maddy who Micah killed, Arthur was just standing there when he only cared about getting out of there despite him standing there like this... 💪😑🤳 🦵 🦶 plus ppl who continually point out that Arthur was disgusted by Micah's actions especially killing a woman who was a wife to a guy that rode with Micah and was 'iNnOcEnT' in the situation, those ppl always try to spin a narrative that Arthur was conflicted in his 'moral dilemma' or that he always had a 'good heart' are all nonsensical BS... Arthur just stood there and didn't care that a seemingly 'iNn0cEnT' woman got killed by this treacherous and EviL man that is Micah Bell, if ppl cared enough to actually delve in Arthur's character aka killing innocents, domesticated animals then i wouldn't have a big problem with the community but i can't just blame the community's perception of RDR2/Arthur Morgan or RDR2 in general because of how Rockstar prioritised it's writing for the Honor system in correspondence towards Arthur's established character tieing into the narrative and gameplay part of RDR2...

[@troperhghar9898]

Durring the last mission to rob the army payroll when arthur and john go back to pick up the dynamite, arthur could have just said "okay nows our chance" then they go back to camp grab abigail and jack and left Whos gonna stop them Grimshaw? She wont shoot her boys

[@pasha_0791]

Arthur and John was going to steal the heist money

[@godzillazfriction]

​@@pasha_0791yep... don't know how OP forgot about that but it is what it is.

[@cristianlopez_8486]

Maybe, but they likely would've have been back in camp the same time the Pinkertons showed up (Micah tipping them of Abigail). A gunfight with them would've also delayed their escape long enough for Dutch to arrive to camp, accuse Arthur and John of betrayal and the essentially the same events play out. Only difference is Tilly Jackson and Abigail could've also been amongst those killed in the scuffle along with Susan Grimshaw.

[@Pounceboi]

That plan wouldve actually worked cause they can all take the money thats in the cave

[@umbratilicious15]

@@Pounceboi speaking of the money in the cave, it's still there in the Epilogue (there's murfree bro's there now tho) we see Arthur give John his hat and satchel, but we previously saw Abigail give Arthur the chest key, what happened to that? should have been in arthur's satchel right?

[@edgonzales5411]

They would have found him because john used his real name for the bank loan

[@trippingums]

i find it even funnier how they go after john the entire time, and the man that competes with his killcount uses his full name all the time and yet no bureu is after him

[@travelingmerchanttraveledi593]

⁠@@trippingumsThe Pinkertons are after Arthur and the gang the entire game???

[@trippingums]

@@travelingmerchanttraveledi593 they can't really bother to actually find him, they get ike 15 minutes of screentime in total

[@eastsidereviews727]

Another enjoyable video. I think Arthur kept saying it, "Revenge is a fool's game." I think there maybe was a shot that Micah could have done to John what he did to his old boy Skinny in Strawberry during the main story, but there is also a chance they never could have seen each other again and could have lived their lives. Micah was way to hot in the streets and was going to either get caught or killed at some point, John, had he listened to both Abigail and Arthur and let the old stuff go, could have lived out his life and maybe not have had to hunt down Bill and Javier. I know this stuff had to happen otherwise we'd have no games, but John being so determined to kill Micah and seeking revenge really did seem to spell the end of his life.

[@godzillazfriction]

😐... the whole point of John getting his family taken away is that the PAST will always come fourth no matter what, it's something that Ross in the Civilisation that he sides with despite acknowledging to be 'dull' will make sure that he would want the world to be a lot less worse... you honestly think Johns situation is any different compared to maybe hundreds of murderers/killer, rapists etc. that wants to live as a 'fAmILy mAn' of course not, even Ross points that out... also in Arthur's journal that John got given by Arthur, John mentions how he killed a man who was looking at his John and his family, so take that for what you will...

[@rbrucerye]

If John hadn't killed Micah on that mountain top, the Pinkertons would have forced him into becoming a darker version of John. The only difference would have been that Micah would have been motivated to hunt down the other gang members via money (a sort of outlaw bounty hunter) as opposed to having his family kidnapped.

[@godzillazfriction]

@@rbrucerye wdym a 'darker version of John' in correspondence to had if John didn't kill Micah..?

[@wiggumsdonut4158]

@lazfriction i mean, it's heavily implied that the pinkertons only caught up with john due to micah's death, as they tracked him from mount hagen all the way to beechers hope in cutscenes. it's possible that they would have found john regardless, but it's also possible that they wouldn't have done if he kept a low profile. and narratively speaking, it definitely makes sense that the death of micah would spell the end of johns life. it's foreshadowed with the whole "revenge is a fool's game" and "never look back" theme, as well as blind man cassidy straight up telling john to look to the future rather than the past, which of course john doesn't do when he comes for micah.

[@godzillazfriction]

@@wiggumsdonut4158 that still doesn't negate the newspaper talking about Sadie accepting Micah's bounty as well as Sadie telling everyone that John Marston is here while taking Cleet to get hanged... Rockstar likes to make obvious things be deemed as entirely true but to the actual full extent of it all which is what my original post points about... plus it really doesn't make much sense that the death of Micah is the sole reason why John got caught... how'd they know that it would be him and asking for John specifically, they would've done the same thing without the death of Micah... on the further note, if John didn't go for revenge then both Charles and Sadie still would've went for it and perhaps died in the end with Micah possibly finding out where John lives... the whole point of the 'revenge is a fools game' was supposed to not be taken in its literal form just like the 'Redemption' aspect in the games' titles, that phrase is just supposed to be an idea, an allegory of Dutch himself that he spread amongst those he teached, why else do you think that Sadie gets the exception of it despite the majority of the RDR2 community not understanding that aspect to its fullest degree...

[@siimtokke3461]

Micah's death didn't lead to the start of RDR. I have said it before and will keep saying it as long as people get this wrong- John used his real name to take the loan to buy the ranch and that's how Ross found him. Regardless if John kills or doesn't kill Micah, there are 4 years between the prologue of RDR 2 and the start of RDR. That 4 years is plenty of time for Ross to find where John is.

[@christianlimonsoto1596]

It’s ironic because in many videos and compilation videos Arthur said don’t look back almost like he knew or expected this would happen in John would’ve hunted down Micah

[@godzillazfriction]

why does Arthur's quote always have to ALLUDE or connotate towards Johns' revenge against Micah as if John didn't kill a man who looked at him the wrong way and went back to Blackwater to be reborn despite his past always being in the never ending sight towards John and his family...

[@yonathantaye1797]

My theory is that Agent Ross didn't find Micah's body because he was looking to hunt Micah down, but rather because he was using him similar to how he used John in RDR1-to nail the gang, and especially Dutch, for good. I think that's why Micah asked John to join the two as well, so he could hand over both to the Pinkertons. I believe it said Micah was on the run for killing some girl too, so it would make sense that Ross used clemency as leverage, just like he used John's family as leverage in the first game.

[@pyroAdapt]

Tbh johns death was way more sad than Arthur's. Johns has so many different factors added onto it. Shock and sadness mainly. Arthur's had a sense of bitter sweet hope with it. Hope that his actions would amount to something and in the end he kind of won. Johns death had no positive spin to it. It was just pain , sorrow and shock. We all saw Arthurs death coming a mile away by design but nobody saw johns death coming.

[@theconnected7234]

Michas death only backfired by putting John higher up on the Pinkertons hit list. Had he lived John might've had another year or two

[@jeffdcgamer1077]

It's crazy after all what had happened in both games Sadie and Charles are the only true survivor in Van der linde gang, Sadie is somewhere in South America causing chaos in her bounty hunter business and Charles went up north to Canada

[@M1N1molo]

Jack…

[@M1N1molo]

Pearson…

[@M1N1molo]

Tilly…

[@M1N1molo]

Mary-Beth…

[@umbratilicious15]

@@M1N1molo no

[@enigma7310]

*I will say this...if Micah wasn't killed in the Epilogue and John, Sadie, and Charles didn't go after him, Dutch would had been harder to catch for the pinkertons and the government..because it was looking like Micah was there to ease tensions with Dutch or something like that. With that said i feel like Micah would be more than pleased to work by side with Dutch again and would had been his right hand man....and given how good he is at shooting the Pinkertons would had NEEDED John anyway and found him since people saw him around valentine and Strawberry when he was supposed to lie low....with Micah by Dutch's side in the rdr1 timeline Dutch would had terrorized West Elizabeth more than he did in Rdr1 and it would had been a whole new section of missions just to take down Micah before Dutch after Javier and Bill in RDR1 and who knows what could had happen....*

[@chrisseger2346]

Nah. Dutch was there to kill Micah, he even said as much before the fighting started. Dutch only talked with Micah to see how he'd explain his end of the story, to see if he truly was the rat that Arthur said he was. In the end, I think Micah was dead either way. He just wouldn't have seen it coming from Dutch.

[@enigma7310]

@@chrisseger2346 🤔

[@marident2928]

Arthur’s passing was hands down the toughest death to me to experience especially when u knew it was coming and any other hopes of a change was too late for Arthur add that to the fact he never got to start over with Mary either and gave everything to the gang and Dutch but didn’t see the truth until it was too late

[@godzillazfriction]

im getting tired of alluding Arthur's death to the 'toughest death for me to experience through' when that doesn't make Arthur's character good nor the game have good writing because of that...

[@naqwillz1089]

Yeab play rdr 1 then after all thatt john is way sadder He died for Almost nothing he sacrificed himself to Wipe His Hiatus so that Jack can live In peace Also Killing Ross was Good Jack did a good deed so that he could stop him from harming others

[@BVX_XCTY]

​@@godzillazfriction its his opinion

[@cromwellington441]

I think its a case of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" If John left Micah alone, Micah would have probably gone to kill John, we've seen Micah do it in Strawberry already. But I don't doubt that John killing Micah was what put him back on Agent Ross' radar and caused the events of RDR1.

[@M1N1molo]

Coulda got rid of the body maybe?

[@RozeRDLR]

Let’s say John never left to go kill Micah, and Sadie and Charles were successful in killing Micah (and kill or let Dutch go) they would both still get the Blackwater money and go back to Beechers Hope, because they know it’s a “home base” for them. Especially if they were somewhat injured. Regardless Charles/Sadie would still leave a trail to John and his family, and they suffer. While Sadie/Charles get away as far as we know. RDR1 events were inevitable in that moment, regardless of John’s involvement or not, the past would still catch up to him.

[@bullshark7888]

John going along with Sadie and Charles I feel was always his destiny. Sadie and Charles weren't going to let Micah go, especially after how he ruined all their lives, got so many of their friends killed and was even responsible for making killing Arthur, which is what all of them believed (and in the low honor ending for Arthur he actually does kill him himself, so there's that. For high honor, one could argue seeing Arthur's bruised corpse that Micah beat him to death). Not to mention, I'd say Charles and Sadie would have died on that mountain if it weren't for John and would have been unsuccessful in killing Micah. Charles would have still been shot at the foot of the mountain by one of the snipers, Sadie would have still been stabbed, and with John not being around to pick them all off, Micha's gang would have hunted both of them down and finished the job. It was because of John that both Sadie and Charles got their final big break and retire from their old lives and start new. Micah and his new formed gang would continue terrorizing the region; possibly becoming as dangerous if not more than the O'Driscolls were. John may have finally retired from his old outlaw life, grown old with Sadie, and seen Jack grow into a fine young man with his own family, but at the cost of losing everyone and knowing that Micah was still alive somewhere and that he couldn't avenge his brother Arthur's death by killing the rat that ruined everything

[@intelligenthuman3262]

John’s death was a lot sadder and more tragic to me, at least with Arthur we knew he was dying no matter what and was dying cos of TB and we got to see his last moments where he whether died by the sword and was killed by Micah or died of TB on the mountain. With John, after playing RDR1 i genuinely thought he was safe after doing all that work for the government and finally securing his family then out of nowhere Ross showed up with an army of thugs working for the government and shoot him dead pretty much undeservingly as he did redeem himself, it took me by massive surprise and left me feeling shocked and empty. I fell in love with both characters but since i played rdr1 first, John’s death hit me harder.

[@Tensifyed]

I think about in GTA5’s ending, the goal was to tie off all loose ends. Devon Weston’s death was too out of Vengeance however, his control of Merryweather was important to taking him out. In RDR2 it IS just vengeance. John thought he could get away from the life of crime even while using his REAL name in the town he’s know for being a part of the most historically known massacre. Buddy couldn’t see a loose end if a string was dangling in front of his eyes

[@blainejohnson8775]

John shouldn’t have gone after Micah, but no one can blame him. That’s my conclusion

[@youenjoymystash2702]

I really enjoy your RDR videos and always look forward to them dropping. Just wanted you to know that! Thank you!

[@kings8o5]

I’m choosing not to add to theories to this I’m just going for a simple rebuttals. but I do think maybe John was doomed whether he left Micah alone or killed him I think when Milton realized In rdr2 Arthur would stay loyal I do think him and the Pinkertons having Abigail and knowledge of John’s family situation. I think he the was the most manipulatable for the pinkertons to press and do the job for them after rdr2. they still even though the gang disbanded had a job to eliminate out the entire gang and anyone leftover who would possibly Do harm John was the only person they could get to and it took years of breaking down but they achieved it to do they’re work for them

[@Zman.gamer.6989]

Charles and Sadie would go after Micah, but neither are nearly as skilled as John, so it is highly likely they would be killed by Micah. Or they wouldn't even make it to Micah and would instead be killed by his gang. Judging how Sadie got stabbed pretty early on and Charles was unable to walk up the mountain due to the sniper. Micah probably thought John was killed and wouldn't go after him. And would be killed by Dutch. John probably would be found one way or another so the events of RDR1 would still go on as usual.

[@michaelw6277]

It seems like no matter what happened they were going to catch up to John at some point. He didn’t exactly make himself difficult to find. The way they did it ties in very neatly into RDR1 so I’m thankful for that bit of clever story telling. How thorough they were still blows my mind, it’s like they planned for this to be two whole games from the start.

[@elwoodbrown2431]

Never seen any after-game cut scene of the law finding the body.

[@IrisWasTaken1]

It’s during the credits

[@smileyfawler8454]

That's a great picture of Micah. He looks so damn cool in the epilogue. Proper outlaw character.

[@leafloev]

He kinda looks like Lucky Ned from True Grit.

[@DW3010]

I think when Arthur says goodbye to the horse, it was more of a choked up moment than when he actually died, because you knew that was coming.

[@jivan8188]

I mean the thing is that the whole point of American Venom was that it was pointless, John should’ve never have gone after Micah because it would trace back to him. In the end he didn’t follow Arthur’s “Vengeance is a Fool’s game”

[@godzillazfriction]

that's not Arthur's motto, it's Dutch's and was just a motto that held no actual value and was used as a means to differentiate the hypocrisy of Dutch's doing with something that's deemed meaningful as 'revenge is a luxury we can't afford'

[@Vetbnkkjnn]

Arthur is the fool That's the entire point of his story 😑

[@mrmister1657]

What if John captured Micah and Dutch Alive as bounties? I wonder if that would make a difference or would rdr1 still play out the same

[@CJColvin]

That's a good point.

[@OfficialMicahBell]

Nobody Killed Me, Im right here bro…

[@MidnightSleeper]

Fantastic video as always, but I think even if John and company wouldn't have gone after Micah, sooner or later someone would have figured out John's whereabouts. Yes, time passes, but John did build right outside of the town where his former gang had gained arguably their greatest notoriety. A botched ferry robbery where John was one of the gunmen. While time does make it easier to forget, with the federal government's desire to 'tame' the west as well as just the simple fact that going in to town for supplies, John may have very well eventually had a Jimmy Brooks 'I know you' incident of his own, like I said, I think sooner or later John would have gotten pinched.

[@loudelk99]

You couldn't play Arthur for over 100 hours and not be moved to tears by his passing.

[@porkswordsman541]

Say what you want about Micah. But that scene when Shawn gets shot and he pops like 3 of them right off the bat, he deserves some respect.

[@pyroAdapt]

Its a good thing the RICO act didn't exist yet because if it did , Abigail and Jack would've been fully able to be prosecuted by the law simply for their association. Well maybe not Jack but Abigail most definitely

[@xylynthian753]

0% chance a 5 year old would get charged with aiding and abetting.

[@Hypepirate]

Arthur said you gotta run and don’t look back. If john listened he would have stayed with abigail

[@Blahaj_Scientist]

Even just flashing the cutscene and hearing the song that plays during Arthur’s death made me tear up. I was like 13 when I first played rdr2 and was absolutely crushed for the rest of the day.

[@Notme32302]

It’s not even a question the whole point of red dead redemption is that revenge is a fools game.

[@sk8legendz]

It only backfired for two reasons 1. Ross was at Beaver Hollow, so between seeing the gangs near showdown and micahs information given to them, it is safe to assume Ross knew Only John and Arthur stood against Micah. 2. Micah 100% lured Dutch in with the Blackwater money to turn him in to Ross. But Dutch being Dutch wouldnt be there for the Money, he'd be there to kill Micah out of revenge. So when John killed Micah and took the Money, it was clear to Ross John Marston had to be alive and in the area. If Micah hadnt been such a Rat Ross never would have gone to mt hagen and John wouldve been fine.

[@Milty2001]

I feel like it was two sided for john, he wanted to end micah for ratting out the van der lin gang and probably tie up loose ends with micah just in case he comes back for john, however i highly doubt that micah would go after john because he had a whole gang and he had a ton of money, also how ross and Fordham found John's ranch is pretty interesting because if you look at the end credits you can see them going to valentine and talking with the guy that bought the sheep from john and arthur so maybe he snitched on john.

[@worldgaming3916]

Its simple if John doesn't go kill Micah, Charles and Sadie would be killed by Micah because Charles and Sadie did get shot but John had to carry it out then micah would've killed Charles and Sadie because John wasn't there to stop micah so ye micah would still win no matter what then in the first red dead agent ross would find micah and then micah have to betray his gang ounce again the micah would get shot meanwhile John is living with his family and soon die with grandkids thats my guess 😊

[@violetaa_aa]

The thing people here forget is that Dutch was going to kill micah either way. "Same as you, i suppose" John going after Micah was completely unneeded, and only put John back on the pinkertons radar.

[@boardasf699]

I feel like if John saw both possibilities, 1. Original ending or ending 2. He lives happily with Abigail and jack, he would pick to avenge arthur

[@blankeon6613]

Yeah the ending of RDR2 100% implies that John doomed himself and his family by choosing to seek revenge against Micah. Arthur told John to "not look back", he wanted John to start a new life and not avenge his death. The government had no trail to track down John without this revenge mission.

[@jokekopter2509]

Don't forget the quote "Revenge is luxury we can't afford"

[@naqwillz1089]

Its about stopping the man If he didnt Micah wouldve grew larger and Killed his family And cause anarchy

[@derhannes6090]

John took the bank loan with his real name guess that also spins in with it

[@donthebond4822]

Honestly I'm kind of pissed at sadie for convincing john to go after micha for the fact it lead ross right to john.

[@PriestOfFilm]

But what can be expected of Sadie at that point? Her entire life since the death of her husband and the destruction of her life at the hand of the o'Driscolls had been a hell-ride of vengeful retribution and very little else worthy. So what other answer would she be able to provide John? She'd always see Micah as a problem to be solved, because she sees the life John has built (much like she once had) and doesn't want Micah to roll back around - inevitably, in her mind. John doesn't need much convincing because of Arthur, and Charles is loyalty incarnate - he would have stood alongside John regardless.

[@donthebond4822]

@@PriestOfFilm good point!

[@jokekopter2509]

​@@PriestOfFilmand after they killed him,Said and Charles left.

[@xeinem2345]

Sadie told John to reconsider going after Micah, because of his family, but John was first in line to get his revenge

[@elwoodbrown2431]

I got a tip for rdr2. Not cannon to the story but this was my only playthrough. Don't go to the st.denis doctor. Then Arthur won't die. Don't ask bc idk how this happened. But in my playthrough I never went to that doctor and finished the game with Arthur alive. it did however have a glitch afterwards. Couldn't play further like normal. Would only load to my save before the last mission. Look in the game codes if you don't believe me. He can live without modding.

[@davegeraghty2187]

Oh yeah I'll just take a look at the game codes hang on

[@leovitoo]

nah your lying, even if we don’t go to the St Denis doctor. a cutscene would be triggered by getting close to sadie’s mission. Arthur contracted TB as early as chapter 2, and he even started coughing in the homestead robbery mission with javier (also in chapter 2)

[@terminator9489]

John also had the "bright" idea of living near blackwater, taking up a loan in a bank with his own name so killing micah made it easier to find him

[@MonkeyBusiness750-r6m]

Love your rdr vids

[@justsomeguy747]

John killing Micah doomed him, no question about it. He felt like he had to do it, as it’s something that Arthur would likely want (to avenge a rat’s betrayal) and if Sadie and Charles went alone, they probably would’ve been killed, and Dutch would either kill Micah or stay it out until he lulls Bell into a false sense of security and kill him, as Micah’s gang was a form of protection for Dutch. He was also very unpredictable at the time. Additionally so many fans believe that Ross worked with Micah to have Dutch arrested, which I greatly doubt. Ross wouldn’t risk working with a career criminal and a mass murderer, and someone who had such a high bounty on his head. It would absolutely destroy Ross’ reputation. He wanted to find his killer so they can either use him to their advantage or perhaps it’s an upcoming outlaw who is even more dangerous than Bell and would use the outlaw’s money to build his own outlaw empire. Is that even an expression?

[@drewg3464]

Everyone already knows that it was a mistake. If he hadn't killed Micah and left the body in the open and bragged about it, the Pinkertons would've never considered sending John to hunt down the rest.

[@bobbydee30g]

There’s a few things over time I’ve come to realization of in this game. One Micah isn’t the big baddie everyone else is(especially Arthur). Everyone voices their distaste for him. They make it clear he’s a liability, they start seeing ditches judgement is shot. There was plenty of opportunities for Micah to have had a little accident. The other is Abigail might as well have signed John’s death certificate. She had this unrealistic expectation of how far they could run from their past where they were. I mean for real why Strawberry? And then why Beechers Hope? They should have fled to Mexico or Canada.

[@PixelPigEntertainment]

One thing about this ending has always bugged the hell out of me. Sadie Adler, she had no bounty on her head and she was working with the law. If I remember correctly, her line of work is how she got her lead on Michah in the first place, wouldn’t Sadie just report bagging Michah and there would’ve been no investigation to begin with?

[@RoachDarrington]

I don't think it would matter. If John didn't go, those 2 would still go, dying or killing him. The agents would still go up there and see the damage, look around and find his farm. The question isn't if John didn't go, would they find him? The question is, if they all stop trying to get revenge Arthur, would they know John was there?

[@JohnDoe-hk5ec]

“Vengeance is hereby mine” indeed

[@The_Cylly]

Vengeance is hereby his.

[@davidfraher1292]

I think Sadie would go after Micah not Charles however Sadie I believe find second love of Arthur and that got took away from her as well by pushing him and making his illness worse she did try to kept him alive as long as she did Charles as we learned from the army Indian mess see in first hand revenge is not the best thing and would help John with his farm for a little longer then adventurly leave for a life of his own

[@NotDeketehsj]

Short answer is yes. If John just kept under the radar and never went for Micah against Arthurs wishes, Edgar wouldn't even know if John was even alive thus getting revenge on Micah is the reason why rdr1 even took place.

[@godzillazfriction]

ye you're too young and your brain is too underdeveloped to gain an ability known as... independent, nuanced critical thinking.

[@elperrodelautumo7511]

Arthur was reminded of the revenge quotes

[@ekdromoi8408]

I think Ross would've found him anyway. He clearly was hunting them all down, other than Sadie and those that hadnt really been involved with the more infamous crimes commited by the gang.

[@St-lucifer-96]

Arthur hits more end of

[@Thoroughly_Wet]

I think it sped up the inevitable. I'm certain the Pinkertons/FBI were keen on using micah the way they used john in rdr1. Micah was to take down the rest of the Van Der Lind gang, but from the inside. They didnt expect John to come out of the woodwork so quickly and gun down their "ace in the hole". The FBI/Pinkytoes then saw the prospect of using Johns ability sling the shit out of some six guns and to not give a damn about anything but his family, and went that route. If john would've just not tried to take revenge it wouldve been a matter of time before Micah had his sights on John at direction of the FPI/binkertoes.

[@elwoodbrown2431]

Also micha how ever you spell it, I never saw his death. The scene I seen here didn't happen in my play through. Infact I don't remember him ever being gone just kicked out of the group.

[@imepic434]

No, Ross was on johns trail regardless. You see it in the credits, micah is only almost the last clue he comes across, he would have found john just as fast.

[@laffywaffy1989]

If im correct but i could be wrong didn't really help john that he used his real name on bank loan when he signed it same place blackwater where it all started in the rdr2 that cause everything in first game so if he didn't Milton probably wouldn't have found him at all or took a lil bit longer to be found

[@VincentAnthonyValentine]

Got a lot to say on this one. 1. I feel confident that Ross wasn't on the mountain hunting down Micah or by accident. Ross is pragmatic and thorough, it makes sense to me that as soon as he made senior detective in the Bureau, he'd reach out to the man that almost netted his previous superior the entire Van Der Linde gang. Of course, Micah could easily be bought with "every crime will be paradoned." or "You can keep the Blackwater money. We just want Dutch." Micah agrees, sets up a time & place, but John comes busting in hours or a day at most before Ross & Fordham can get there. 2. Charles & Sadie wouldve died on that mountain. Even with Johns help, they damn near died anyways. 3. I hate that Rockstar scripted it as though Micahs death was the sole reason they found John. To support my own theory, its fine that they found Micah up there, I can make that make sense. But trapsing around the five states on the hunt for John is ridiculous. Like, the bank in which John uses his real name is literally kittcorner with the Bureaus God damn field office. They couldve just made it that, John was caught because he loved Abigail so damn much he risked his life on the very ranch she wanted. But according to what rockstar gives us, without any of my head cannon: Ross & Fordham just happen to stumble upon Micah (at the peak of a fucking mountain), in the next scene, some fucking how, end up questioning the man Sadie stabbed the next state over and deduce it was John that was with her and then somehow end up at Beechers Hope. Its nonsensical as fuck, and a dropped ball all to enforce "Revenge is a fools game" rather than "John died for his love of Abigail & his family." Okay, I'm done now lol

[@daahorse1652]

I would agree that Micah would’ve came after John and his family at some point but the end credit scene with the Pinkertons finding Micah and Abigail’s dialogue about how John’s risking his entire life for Micah says otherwise. He had plenty of time to not make that choice but he did, though I do respect him for it.

[@umbratilicious15]

you are assuming that John could have lived until old age had he not gone after Micah, but i think it's likely that Micah would possibly have encountered John at some point anyway, even with John not searching for Micah on purpose.

[@Rafapb17]

Honestly, I think that even if John never went after Micah, Ross would still find him and eventually killed John and his family. Imagine if it was Micah who was tasked to capture or kill the remaining members of the Van der Linde gang in 1911, and eventually he would got to John.

[@pm.meowth4850]

i mean ya thats what the after game credits directly shown

[@GemheartGamming]

the worst part of RDR2 is when you gun down micah you only have a few seconds to place shots.... i'd like to have more time so i could place my shots on points where id feel it would inflict as much pain on micah... sadly, only 10 shots (if you're using the mauser) feels isnt enough to me

[@davidreed7849]

That shrug alone makes it hit less for me like how am i supposed to feel justified if hes just gonna shrug off death like its a slight misstep

[@mandalorianperseus4662]

Im surprised there was no mention to Micah's revolver and engraving "Vengeance is hereby mine". Like what if Micah had the whole thing planned out from the start and just acted as he did as a form of cover? Its true that he probably genuinely is a terrible person, i mean spend 5 mins with the guy, but what if he planned the whole thing out and picking up his revolver is meant to be the haunting way of him saying he's not done yet. There may be no mention of him in red dead, but doesnt it seem a little eerily possible? That whole "Vengeance is hereby mine" on the revolver thing could be micah taunting us that really, after everything that happens in red dead 1, truly he won because he did whatever he wanted, got away with it, and it wasnt the law who got him, therefore he views it as never losing anything, and maybe because he died so early on before red dead 1, maybe thats why he says it, he views it as an early escape before the law starts cracking down harder and harder on crime.

[@enderbunny1609]

7:20 redemption isn't in law, it's In honor. It's just that Arthur is a better example

[@JubeiKibagamiFez]

I honestly have no idea how they tied Micah's death to John. For all they knew, he could've died at the hands of a rival gang, could've died by the hands of his own men, etc etc. I think Ross still would've come knocking if John had just let sleeping dogs lie.

[@xylynthian753]

"Have you seen John Marston?" Ambarino resident: "Yeah he came to town with a woman, they chased a man for a while, then hanged him once they found out where that Micah Bell fella was hiding."

[@deanbarberneeson7672]

It did backfire because the Pinkertons traced everything and then eventually found John, Arthur told John to not look back move on, Multiple times he didn’t listen

[@NCPPGpilot]

Not being familiar with the 1st RDR, my only question was 'Why did he let Dutch walk?'.

[@c3ntur10n7]

I think the reason why he let Dutch walk was because they have history. You have to remember that John was taken into the Gang at a young age as an orphan, just like Arthur. Dutch was a father figure to him, helped him get Jack back, taught him to read, and many other things. Dutch was his leader, there might still be a small amount of loyalty or respect he has deep inside for him.

[@daxom1705]

A part of me died when Arthur died

[@lillyanderson6338]

The butterfly effect. YES

[@daxom1705]

Idk why this video is what made me realizing directly opposing what Arthur would say “revenge is a fools errand” ended up making Arthur’s death meaningless. John justified it on the basis that if it wasn’t for Arthur he wouldn’t be free so he should avenge him but Arthur died so he could be free which means John made his death worth nothing by doing what he thought was right.

[@J_Rossi]

The more I think about it, leaving Micah alone wouldn't have made any difference. He had been working with the Pinkertons and likely would have had the same type of "deal" John got offered in Red Dead Redemption. Meaning that Micah would have either hunted John down personally or he would have led the Pinkertons straight to him. Sadly, John would have been done for either way. At least Arthur's sacrifice was allowed to give John a few years of relative peace with his family that he most likely would not have had otherwise.

[@manbearpig342]

I don't think it would have mattered if John had left Micah alone. Ross was on a mission to eliminate the entire gang. If anything it gave Ross the idea to use John to eliminate the old members.

[@capndikkens5790]

Been saying this. I understand Micah needed to go, but Arthur told him to not look back. Going after Micah is the definition of looking back. John did this to himself.

[@enzothunder2996]

Hot take : RDR2 is a better game , but John is a better character. They did did a great job making you like Arthur tho .

[@franklinmcsweeney-ow2fx]

That’s the whole point of red dead. Same rules of the modern day streets. What goes around comes around. No matter how righteous, death always leads to more death. Hence the case of young Jack.

[@Ant.0.4]

If John didn’t kill Micah I feel like Micah would’ve ended up doing what John did in rdr1 except it’d be him killing John I think no matter what happened the gang was doomed

[@patanstee2315]

Micah Bell was a good name, rockstar should have made a character in the game with the name Earl Cash

[@jagsfan1575]

For Arthurs all black look What clothing items did you use

[@ianstuart371]

Answer: no?

[@nixxgen9574]

Well Ross would have been done with Micah anyway after he wore out his usefulness to him

[@ironkong26]

micah would have eventually found john..... there is no way micah and dutch together would not have run across marston. someone would have died

[@magiccookies420]

Short answer: yes

[@SuperIceeyou]

What happened to Karen? We never get closure on her.

[@kimberlyh.1090]

In a letter, Tilly writes to John she believes Karen wandered off and died from alcohol poisoning.

[@nicenamenicesurname8365]

Yes it did, the pinkertons found john only coz he went to kill him, the whole game we are being told "revenge is a fool's game", then Arthur clear as day tells him "do NOT look back", and what does john do? He looks back to seek revenge 😂, btw no I did not watch the video so don't come telling me I'm only repeating what he said in it.

[@lucabrazzi7112]

Yes it does backfire , after all if Micah was the intel agent of the Pinkerton , they needed a new one after his death in the name of John Marston in order to kill Dutch Van Der Linde John shouldn’t have retaliate on Micah , revenge’s a fool game

[@dantetress9379]

Dick move showing Arthur’s death again I just ran the waterworks again

[@stephenvalleley1820]

Yeah it did if johm sadie and charles didnt go after micha the pinkertons wouldn't of found john.

[@MichaelDesanta-jv6nn]

Love your videos ❤️

[@sahilhossain8204]

Lore of Did Killing Micah Actually backfire? Momentum 100

[@allbriardup6451]

We all knew when it took place lol