What if Sauron had won?

[@callinhero]

Sauron got an entire book series named after him, he won where it really mattered.

[@raze3297]

Countless books have been written about evil people. Do the thousands of books about Hitler mean he really won? Does notoriety automatically mean success?

[@haydenwalton2766]

after all - history is written by the victors. and anyway, this is all pointless. surely, the entire cosmos is superdetermined

[@erco9167]

"There's no such thing as bad press" - Sauron

[@jonatanrullman]

Nobody remembers this Frolo fellow or whatshisface with the eleven trouble and strife. Sauron though, there's a name that will be feared for a millenia. :-)

[@MusikCassette]

it was not named after him but after his ring.

[@jonathanyaloussa]

Moral of the story: Don't be a micro-manager. Even Sauron wasn't like that.

[@Uncle_Fred]

Whenever you are at work and face a problem, ask yourself: "What would Sauron do?"

[@gorgolyt]

How is that the moral of the story? Do you recall that Sauron's empire literally imploded?

[@floydthephilosopher]

This is... actually pretty good advice...lol He was very shrewd in his dealings. ​@@Uncle_Fred

[@mclovin2408]

@@Uncle_Fredthat’s exactly how I think, I messed up mixing chemicals and my boss saw it, so I threw the chemicals at him and became the boss.

[@NicholasHEADSHOT]

@@gorgolyt That is the second moral of the story: Invest in security against backdoor attacks.

[@UndeadBrett]

There'd be alot more "Support the Witch King of Angmar for county sheriff" signs in everybody's yards

[@justinah7400]

Yep, if they didn't show support for the established party they would be thrown in prison, disappeared, have their social credit score plummet so far they weren't able to get to wait in the miles long bread and water lines. Utopian Middle Earth Socialism

[@jonatanrullman]

Make Angmar Great Again

[@RossBlack-e2r]

By then, the Witchking had been destroyed, but at least we’d have probably learned more about the other ringwraiths as they jockeyed for position.

[@jaketucker3318]

Underrated comment

[@neildaly2635]

He did win, I just got hired as the new mouth of Sauron job. Great pay, great benefits looking forward to my new office in the Barradur.

[@ikenosis8160]

What about good healthcare, got dental?

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Got any openings in HR? I used to work as a Pro Dominatrix.

[@d26k164]

@@ikenosis8160 unlikely, if you look at the previous guys teeth

[@Matthew10950]

Looking for a new job. Will hench for wages. Not too proud to start at the bottom, busting knees or servicing urukhai...

[@iandennis7836]

​@@ikenosis8160Dental? Probably not one of their major concerns and I think knowing the social system that came into being around the time the book was published, social medicine would be the order of the day?😂

[@rosyface_]

I got fantastic ad placement on this video. Right after you said the heroes looked the mouth of Sauron in the eye and saw this, it cut to an ad for elf on the shelf

[@BizarroStormy]

I got Ryan Reynolds lol

[@PrinceJvstin]

There is an old D&d supplement called midnight where the realms of the world are controlled by a Sauron like figure. What happens besides resistance to that rule is a lot of intrigue between the Lieutenants

[@The_Custos]

sounds cool

[@ladyabaxa]

Legend of the Five Rings has the 1000 Years of Darkness alternate scenario that posits what Rokugan would be like if Fu Leng had emerged victorious on the Second Day of Thunder. The answer: killed just about everyone who opposed him and ruled the Emerald Empire with an iron fist with the only resistance being those who managed to make it to the Mantis islands. The Dragon Clan seal themselves up on their mountain because Hitomi is able to use the power of the Lying Darkness, the Phoenix and Crane are pretty much wiped out, the surviving Lion swear fealty to Fu Leng, and the Crab actually aren't mentioned at all in the blurb I have which is kind of weird since they were tasked with fighting the Shadowlands but by that point in time their relationship to that duty was kind of... weird. It also doesn't mention the Unicorn but their fate was probably the same as the Lion - anyone willing to bow to the new dark emperor was spared.

[@Kaiyanwang82]

Midnight was a very interesting setting. One of the gifts of OGL.

[@coopmurphy9216]

Human sacrifice. Elves and Dwarves living together. Mass hysteria.

[@ganikhalidov]

😂

[@bignasty4874]

That's a big twinkie.

[@AodhanBeag]

Sauron’s over confidence was no match for the true unsung purest of heroes in Samwise Gamgee

[@alemander_01]

There is a really good RPG that was originally published by Fantasy Flight Games that was for D&D 3.0 called Midnight that was this exact scenario. Izrador was that amalgamation of Sauron and had great lore regarding what the elves were trying to survive, the dwarves, etc. Highly recommended.

[@KorithStoneheart]

Why would I want to read/play a shameless LoTR knockoff?

[@alemander_01]

@@KorithStoneheart I don't know how to respond to that. Did anyone else make a setting that was 100 years after a "Sauron" victory? It was a very interesting take on the state of the elves and dwarves and humans after a "Sauron" victory and it was all that was available. But hey, sorry to bother you. LOL.

[@haydenmaines5905]

Thanks for the recc! Never heard of it and it sound super interesting! 😊

[@emrek99205]

I just commented about this very campaign setting before I saw your comment. It isn't Tolkien but the similarities are there. It is a closer tale about where Melkor ended up after his exile and his rise to power once again. Similarities between the two overall histories are vast and numerous even if the names and events are changed to avoid copyright infringement. The best description of the world of Midnight is: Frodo failed.

[@tiglishnobody8750]

@@KorithStoneheart Warhammer fantasy is mostly shameless LoTR knockoff Dark Land is knockoff Mordor Doesn't mean they not popular

[@wompastompa3692]

Gondor? Sacked. Rohan? Pillaged. The Shire? Nuked annually.

[@hickspaced2963]

Thats something i could get behind

[@VMan776]

Hotel? Trivago.

[@NLBusiness391]

The nuking being annual just for fun of it is what sent me lmao

[@distrologic2925]

After the first nuke the hobbits mutated and everything just got worse for sauron so he had no choice to keep nuking it

[@AdjustingLight]

I just spit out my water laughing

[@awesomehpt8938]

At least the trains would run on time!

[@cyberdaemon]

They would only go to miserable places.

[@qwaeszrdxtfcgvbqwaeszrdxtf5733]

​@@cyberdaemon " we are goin on a trip , to a place called Autschitz"

[@cyberdaemon]

@@qwaeszrdxtfcgvbqwaeszrdxtf5733 You are not going there as prisoners during actual Holocaust at least.

[@felixleong61]

@@qwaeszrdxtfcgvbqwaeszrdxtf5733 Zooming through Mordor, with the Nazgul!

[@solomonstello]

​@@felixleong61that'd be fun 😂

[@georgielaforge4239]

Something about your voice brings me peace and settles my anxiety. It’s only a secondary effect that I’m becoming more interested in fantasy literature. Much love for your channel ❤️

[@philliplewis946]

It has dawned on me that, if the 4th age was due to be the age of man, that Sauron represented an existential threat and contradiction to it. His MO was control, order, omniscience over the lives and actions of his subjects, meanwhile the very cornerstone of mankind is freedom over their destinies, both in life and in death, the least controlled and bound to the earth of all the free peoples. It occurs to me that Sauron himself was a great test of the willpower of men, and in a way planted a fundamental seed that would live in folklore about the ability of men to overcome that which desires to control them. So to speak, the defeat or victory of Sauron was the final test of mankind to not only determine their safety from malevolent forces, but to channel their their power of freedom of destiny, and define their age by casting out that which was antithetical to it, a power of absolute control. Probably someone could refine my thoughts, but the contrast is still intriguing

[@johnfleet235]

There is one problem with Sauron's, it was the opposite of how Eru had created the race of men. They were not bound to the circles of the world. They were a more restless group, that no matter what Sauron wanted his control of them would never be complete.

[@Julius_Hardware]

Good point. And its that intrinsic unpredictability of men and hobbits that gives them the ability to surprise even beings as powerful as Maiar (Sauron and Gandalf).

[@istari0]

Had Sauron won, I think he would have ended up getting rid of Orcs in favor of Men, who were less likely to be constantly fighting one another. Eventually though, the Valar would have intervened directly. Leaving Middle-Earth forever under Sauron's dominion would have been unacceptable.

[@KorithStoneheart]

Yeah men never fight amongst themselves 🙄

[@DistendedPerinium]

@@KorithStoneheart It looks like English isn't your first language, so here's a tip; "less likely" is not synonymous with "never". I hope that helps.

[@FritoBuggers]

​@@KorithStoneheartThey will just agree to disagree.🤪

[@tiglishnobody8750]

@@KorithStoneheart Well Human has more than just fight while Orcs only bred for war

[@michaelharrington75]

You think men would be less likely to fight one another?

[@Fast-e-Learning]

interesting that Sauron doesn't want to deal with an occupation of a hostile territory (hmm...) like Gondor, so he'd give them a some slice of freedom in exchange for taxes etc, fascinating

[@DistendedPerinium]

It makes sense; demand high tributes, forcing the economy to be geared toward fulfilling those tributes, as well as survival, in order to help prevent those economies from shifting toward war.

[@davidemelia6296]

It's a feudal system, with him as the King, and them as his earls, barons, and so on. Although they would no doubt have much less in the way of rights than, say, feudal lords under the Magna Carta system. I can't see Sauron agreeing that he was not above the laws, even in theory. 🤣

[@jonathancampbell5231]

@@davidemelia6296 Seems closet to the Ottoman Empire to be honest- one all-powerful ruler in charge of various castes of slaves, except that Sauron wouldn't rule "for" God but "AS" God.

[@beytran70]

I suspect even if it was the truth, it would not have lasted. It may last just long enough for Sauron and his forces to be in a dominant enough position to expand, grind his heel further, and then conquer Eriador as well.

[@Krom5072]

Because he knows that Men would perceive his occupation to be an existential threat. Not referring to slavery, or like a repression of their culture, but the actual physical extermination of their whole species. Hence, should he conquer whole Middle-Earth using force, they will fight to the teeth and constantly launch rebellions and uprisings. Even if he has the Ring, he can use it to win individual battles, but I don't think it can defeat guerilla tactics. Which presents a long-term risk to his dominion. Hence he would likely opt for a milder regime anyway in order not to provoke many rebellions in the first place. We see that scheme is successful with the Easterlings. Of course they swear fealty to Sauron (pay taxes and send troops to his wars) and worship him as their god, but really he doesn't even post Orcish garrisons in their lands and leaves them to their own devices mostly. So he rules over them, sure, with fear, but not with open repression and tyranny. He can also genocide everybody outright, but what's the point of being a ruler then - his orcs would kill each other in absence of other enemies and so the whole continent will be empty. I guess Sauron wouldn't be sad, but from a perspective of a power-hungry evil, having subjects that you dominate over is better than ruling over a wasteland, even though for you as an immortal non-physical being there is functionally no difference. And yes, as was pointed out in some other comments, Orcs really suck as servants. They are loyal but this is the only good quality of theirs. Sauron would feel much more accomplished if he can successfully rule over Men.

[@xilebat]

Somebody tell me this guy has narrated a LOTR audiobook. What a voice!

[@stevencolatrella3257]

Saruman was breeding orcs with men to have orcs that could stand daylight. Saruman was the modernist technocrat who used science. Sauron, as far as I recall did not dabble in such things. Otherwise, this is yet another great video Robert. Thank you!

[@347Jimmy]

I think it was mentioned in wider Lengendarium that Sauron was breeding Uruks some time before Saruman (though Saruman was better at making them) I could be mistaken on the source, as I'm only aware of it via this channel This has come up in another video (most likely the difference between orcs, goblins and uruks)

[@Wolfeson28]

@@347Jimmy Sauron may have had some light-tolerant orcs, but he did still need to generate a massive cloud blotting out the sun during the Siege of Minas Tirith, so clearly at least a substantial portion of his orcish army still couldn't operate in sunlight.

[@347Jimmy]

@@Wolfeson28 absolutely, he was nowhere near replacing the bulk of his army As an aside, I think Sauron would cast darkness over the land even if he doesn't need to Why wouldn't he?

[@Daniel-rd6st]

Because its most likely quite a difficult and powerconsuming thing to do. Power that could be used otherwise. @@347Jimmy

[@richardthomas5362]

Sauruman bred orcs and men to make a better orc. Sauron managed to do that by manipulating orcs on a genetic level, I believe, which showed his greater power.

[@skyborne80]

Periodically I take breaks from lotr lore videos, but every time my interest re-engages, I'm reminded of how awesome In Deep Geek's videos are 🙂

[@orrointhewise87]

Given that Sauron is a master of deception he would have said one thing but in time meant another. His vengeance against the elves and anyone else who would have stood against him would not have been forgotten. Also I wonder if he would have an ultimate goal of reviving Morgoth? Interesting to think about

[@john-er6or]

Sauron may be a lot of evil things, and dumb in some areas, but not when it came to Morgoth. Even if he was capable of reviving Morgoth, which I don’t think he was, he wouldn’t have done so, I think. He saw firsthand during the 1st age how Morgoth simply wanted to destroy everything. That was never Sauron’s intention. He wanted to RULE over everything. Bringing back Morgoth would thwart those plans.

[@spacemissing]

Morgoth is locked away outside the world until the End, essentially in limbo, by the Valar. Sauron would not have been able to do anything about that.

[@Daniel-rd6st]

I dont think that Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, that was just a consequence of what he tried to do. What he wanted was basically to create his own version of Arda. His big problem was, that he couldnt create something out of nothing (this was Eru Ilúvatars power alone) and when he tried to change something that was already there, the results werent what he wanted. But i agree, Sauron wouldnt have tried to bring Morgoth back, if he had won. Because then he would have been the secon fiddle again, dependent on the whims of another. And once he had tasted power i doubt that he would have relinquished it again. @@john-er6or

[@badwolfe1963]

So we’re living in his reality now😢

[@Richard_Nickerson]

He might have sought to trigger that Dagor Dagorath

[@d26k164]

Been following you since 2016, Robert. Keep up the great work!

[@DeanFWilson]

Great exploration of this question. I hadn't considered in detail the specific terms the Mouth of Sauron had offered (though I agree that it is almost certain they would not be honoured, in the same way that Hitler's various "peace" proposals were just to buy him more time, land, resources, and manpower to engage in the next offensive).

[@pangorbalm8086]

You forgot to reference when Frodo looked into Galadriel's vision waters and saw, according to her, what will come to pass if he should fail. I forget if that part was in the books but it was definitely in the movie.

[@toncek9981]

What movie shows (burning shire and enslaved hobbits) is actually closer to Sam's vision in the book not Frodo's. Although he doesn't see an alternative "what if" scenario, but more like an actual future with Shire being occupied by Saruman and his ruffians at the end of Return of the King - I believe, that I've read somewhere that the mirror scene in movie was at least partially meant as a homage to this part of the story that was otherwise left out...

[@madbug1965]

Another great analysis, Robert!

[@shannonllewellyn7261]

Have you ever been to Sunderland? It would probably have been a bit like that.

[@emrek99205]

I have not, but I love her videos!

[@MisterJackTheAttack]

If Sauron won, that probably means Gollum wouldn't have died, and in his incessant desire for the one ring, he forms a new resistance against and topples Sauron. Gandalf did say he still had a role to play after all.

[@GnaReffotsirk]

His role was fulfilled in the destruction of the One ring. Maybe if gollum had died beforehand Sauron would have won.

[@ZlothZloth]

Oh my! Gollum's forces topple Suaron (but don't kill him, as that would destroy the Precious). The Valar are so stunned by this strange turn of events that they do nothing for a couple of centuries. Arwen, having gone mad when Aragorn died, weds Gollum and becomes his queen. Someone write it out! We'll put an end to this ridiculous "truth is stranger than fiction" once and for all! ;)

@@ZlothZloth In the shadowed realm of Mordor, where the dark lord Sauron once reigned supreme, a most unexpected turn of events unfolded. Gollum, the creature forever twisted by his obsession with the One Ring, accomplished what none thought possible. With cunning and relentless determination, his forces overwhelmed Sauron's legions. However, Gollum, driven by his love for the Precious, ensured Sauron was not slain, for his life was inexplicably tied to the Ring's existence. As this strange rebellion took place, the Valar, the god-like beings overseeing the fate of Middle-earth, watched in stunned silence. Never had they anticipated such a turn, and for centuries, they remained inactive, pondering this unforeseen outcome. Meanwhile, in the realms of men, tragedy struck. Arwen, the elven princess who had forsaken her immortality for the love of Aragorn, King of Gondor, descended into madness following his death. The loss of her beloved shattered her once-steadfast spirit, leaving her adrift in a sea of despair. It was in this fragile state that her path crossed with Gollum's. The creature, now ruling the dark lands with an iron grip, found an unlikely companion in the grieving Arwen. In a twisted ceremony beneath the ashen skies of Mordor, Arwen took Gollum's hand, becoming his queen. Their union, bizarre and heart-wrenching, symbolized the unending complexities of love and obsession. Together, Queen Arwen and King Gollum ruled over a realm of shadows, their reign a constant reminder of the unpredictable and often tragic nature of Middle-earth's history. The world watched, unable to comprehend how the once-radiant daughter of Elrond had become entwined with the fate of the most tormented creature of their age. And so, in a corner of a world filled with legends and heroes, a new story, as strange and dark as any, began to unfold, a tale of lost love, unquenchable desire, and the enduring power of the Precious. In the heart of Mordor, where the very air was thick with despair and the land lay barren under the rule of King Gollum and Queen Arwen, an eerie peace settled. The Orcs, once servants of Sauron, now bowed to Gollum, their loyalty swayed by his possession of the One Ring and his unexpected victory. The Dark Tower, once a symbol of Sauron's tyranny, became the seat of this unlikely monarchy. Arwen, in her madness, found solace in the twisted landscapes of Mordor, her grief morphing into a dark fascination with the land's desolation. She wandered the halls of the Dark Tower, her elven grace a stark contrast to the crude stone and shadow. Her presence brought a strange beauty to the bleak fortress, her sorrowful songs echoing through the corridors, lamenting her lost love and the life she had left behind. Meanwhile, Gollum, now a king, was torn between his duties to his kingdom and his obsession with the Precious. He spent hours gazing at the Ring, conversing with it as if it were a living companion. The Ring's influence continued to warp his mind, but his love for Arwen provided a fragile anchor, keeping him from losing himself entirely to madness. In the wider world of Middle-earth, the alliance between Elves, Men, and Dwarves grew uneasy. News of Arwen's fate and her alliance with Gollum caused a stir among the races. Elrond, heartbroken by his daughter's descent into madness, retreated into seclusion. The Elves of Rivendell and Lothlórien viewed the situation with a mix of sorrow and disbelief, uncertain of how to react to the transformation of their once-beloved princess. In the kingdoms of Men, the reaction was one of shock and confusion. Gondor, under the stewardship of Aragorn's heirs, grappled with the loss of their queen to the darkness of Mordor. Rumors and fear spread among the people, with some calling for action against the new rulers of the black land, while others counseled caution, fearing the power of the One Ring. The Dwarves, ever pragmatic, watched from their mountain strongholds, their primary concern being the stability of their trade and the safety of their realms. They too were uneasy about the new power in Mordor but were hesitant to engage in another war. As years passed, the balance of power in Middle-earth shifted in subtle ways. Mordor, under Gollum and Arwen's rule, remained isolated, a land of shadows and whispers. Yet, there was no move to conquer or expand. Instead, it became a kingdom of sorrow, a testament to the twisted paths fate can take. In this altered Middle-earth, the stories of heroes and villains blurred, giving way to a narrative that spoke of the complexities of the heart and the unpredictable nature of destiny. The tale of Queen Arwen and King Gollum, a tale of lost love, unyielding obsession, and the deep shadows of the human (and elven) heart, would be sung for ages, a reminder of the thin line between light and darkness, sanity and madness. And so, the land watched and waited, for the story of Mordor's mad queen and her twisted king was far from over. The fate of the Precious, the peace of Middle-earth, and the destiny of its many peoples hung in a delicate balance, poised on the edge of a knife.

[@jessebeegee]

@@ZlothZlothno

[@Richard_Nickerson]

​@@ZlothZloth Good glob! No!

[@nerdytom6881]

Tulkas walks in. "Give me the ring or I will cut it from your hand for a second time."

[@legionarybooks13]

Another great video! I especially love the artwork at 7:50. I know Galadriel mentions being brought before the Dark Lord, though my first reaction was this being an image of Luthien and Morgoth.

[@RaynmanPlays]

Puffin Forest made a video about an evil LOTR campaign where he played Sauron and had no idea how to do it, but pretty much everyone who saw it agreed that it was extremely accurate to the books. I recommend checking it out.

[@MageAtYou]

Played what?

[@ghostdreamer7272]

I’m more curious about Sauron winning with the Rings of Power, in his fair form, before even Numenor was corrupted.

[@heretowatchvideos100]

He more or less ruled Middle-Earth during those times, Númenor was too strong, though. Only way to beat them was pretending to surrender to them.

[@ghostdreamer7272]

@@heretowatchvideos100 I mean before that. Numenor just started building ships when Sauron made the Rings. I'm asking if Sauron won, with the Gil-galad, Galadriel, etc. submitting peacefully to him, and Annatar becoming High King of the Elves, with the Three Rings under his control, preserving the beauty of Middle-earth under Nenya while being capable of great healing like Vilya and also inspiring others like Narya. Imagine Sauron as ruling like that, in his original plan.

[@motortiki]

@@ghostdreamer7272 For answer to that, look to the contrast between the Shire+Old Forest and Rohan+Fangorn Forest. Merry and Pippin spending so much time in all of those places was quite intentional, and Tolkien used it to demonstrate the less tangible consequences of Sauron's rule. In the Shire, Old Forest, and Brie we find disorganized but happy and prosperous inhabitants, the Free People of Middle Earth. In contrast, Fangorn and Rohan under the influence of Sauron (through Saruman) we find stagnation, decay, and civil war. The message is clear: those things are a consequence of Sauron imposing his rule. A big theme of Tolkien's work is that even good intentions can lead to terrible results. Sauron is evil not because he does evil things, but because Sauron believes allowing people to be free is bad for them. Middle Earth would have suffered under even his fairest form.

[@Thin_Mercury]

He was basically the absolute master of middle earth prior to his dealings with Numenor. The elves existed in Lindon but they were unable to prevent Sauron conquering everything else. He ruled with an iron grip, either directly or through his vassals like the men of the East and Harad

[@disgruntledtoons]

Sauron would have expended his power in dominating Men, weakening him as Morgoth had weakened himself by expending his power in similar ways. Eventually he would be weakened to the point that an exceptionally powerful Man could challenge him, and eventually he would have been overthrown.

[@braziliankaiser8304]

Sauron's essence is mostly safe from decay by being imbued into The One.

[@Thin_Mercury]

Untrue, the one ring prevented that happening to him.

[@sirsplintfastthepungent1373]

This reminds me of a DC comics run where the Justice League goes to Apokolips to free the people from Darkseid's reign, but the residents there get mad and beg the JLA to just leave their protective god-king alone, so the heroes apologize, and go home.

[@Ensign_Nemo]

Sauron would have acted like Hitler did from about 1935 to 1941, where he would constantly demand more territory and promise every time that "This is the last time that I will demand more territory". He took the Saar, the Rhineland, Austria, the Sudetenland, the rest of Czechoslovakia, a bit of the Baltics, and finally Poland. Then he conquered half a dozen nations. He then broke his promises not to invade the Soviet Union. Once Sauron had taken over Mirkwood and Dale and the Lonely Mountain, and 'pacified' Gondor and Rohan, only the Elves would have any ability to resist him. He'd pick off Lothlorien and Rivendell and finally the Last Havens. Minor areas such as the Shire would be the last to fall, and by then they'd be almost an afterthought, as he would completely dominate the rest of the northwest of Middle Earth.

[@BOOMCHAKALAKAKAPOW]

Hitler is Aragorn, Stalin is Sauron

[@tiglishnobody8750]

@@BOOMCHAKALAKAKAPOW What? You said Aragorn is Hitler?

[@LeeM1992]

@@BOOMCHAKALAKAKAPOW😂😂😂😂 wow

[@techelitesareadisease8816]

@@tiglishnobody8750 Yes, he was.

[@tiglishnobody8750]

@@techelitesareadisease8816 Is this joke?

[@sindrimyr5351]

I loved the addition of Lotro's Mordirith. Such a cool character

[@tam310]

Enjoy your videos In Deep, though wish they were a bit longer. However, keep them wanting more and all that 😀

[@alphax4785]

Sauron's dominion was destructive to the point that it would've collapsed into an evil civil war at sooner rather than later since as Aragorn and company could see plain as day, the Mouth of Sauron would not have left them any freedom as soon as Isengard was rebuilt and his armies could just do away with any pretense of 'vassalage.' Sauron's lieutenants were all reflections of his own corrupted and evil need to impose order... his order (or rather their own orders, which would inevitably conflict as their various fiefdoms refuse to cooperate with each other since their external enemy is defeated and their own competence or lack of it becomes exposed to the rest).

[@MobyTheMerpup1852]

Had he won 2,003 would’ve been the darkest year in moviemaking period!

[@ConsolasEight]

In the history of fiction there are perhaps three Evil Plans I consider the best... The first was Judge Doom’s from Who Framed Rodger Rabbit, whose ultimate plan was to destroy Toon Town so he could build a freeway. In his monologue he made it sound as ominous as the Death Star. “My God, It’ll be Beautiful!” The second was Evil’s from Time Bandits. His hilarious rant against The Supreme Being highlighted 43 species of parrots and nipples for men as proof the Supreme Being was a lunatic. Once able to escape the Fortress of Ultimate Darkness, Evil planned to remake man in his own image - starting with lasers from day one. The third was in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, where a shadowy hegemony of Psychiatrists, Fortune Tellers and Philosophers conspire to destroy the whole of the planet Earth, eradicate the Humans species, and the Answer to Life the Universe and Everything along with it ... simply to keep their clients unhappy and themselves in business.

[@jonathankipps9061]

If published fan-fiction ever becomes a possibility, this suggests a very interesting tale that could be told. Start out a book, assuming that the the Nazgul had gotten to the cracks of Doom just before Gollum fell with the Ring. Flesh out a few details there about how Sauron took control over Middle Earth, then skip several hundred years into the future. Assume there's still a remnant of Hobbits in hiding, and that one of Aragorn's descendants is still around. The majority of the book would be about that second 'war of the ring', and about how the strategy and fighting would go down with all of Middle Earth being actively occupied by Sauron's forces.

[@brucepierson9941]

"The desire to save humanity is almost always a front for the desire to control it."

[@MrStardust91]

There is a action rpg game named LOTR: Conquest. In this game there are two scenarios: In the good one, you get to do pretty much all the fighting middle earth has to offer. And there is evil scenario: In that you first capture the ring, re awake witch king and slowly conquer all the middle earth. In the last mission. you get to fight Treebeard and Gandalf in the last peaceful area: Shire. It was well done.

[@VelvetMagician]

I remember playing as Sauron and getting picked up by an eagle right before fighting Gandalf on the bridge.

[@Solarnova]

I always thought Gandalf's reference to darkness again covering the lands of Middle Earth was Sauron having successfully invaded Eriador in the Second Age, and controlling it for a short time, until the Numenoreans arrived and pushed back his forces.

[@Wbfuhn]

It would be a much darker version of Asguard. Sauron would be as Odin. Powerful and a leech to neighboring lands. It would consume and force resources to itself where the other lands wouldn't be able to grow and flourish.

[@toncek9981]

To be fair, at both the Pellenor Fields and Morannon, there were some men fighting for the Sauron till the end, even after the day was lost. So, I guess that some of his vassals actually lived relatively freely - with at least elites and military classes being happy with his rule to the point of unwavering loyalty and fanaticism. Also even if his rule was evil from our point of view (slavery, human sacrifices, etc.), most people under his rule perhaps didn't have a real problem with that. After all, there were plenty of real historical civilizations prospering under the shadow of slavery, human sacrifice or religious despotism... and they didn't need an immortal evil overlord for that.

[@CEB1896]

The "negotiations" of the Mouth of Sauron sounds more like a compromise. Yes he was defeated at Minas Tirith and the ring is not found, but they still have large armies and would eventually win the war because of sheer numbers.

[@TheEyered]

Eru would have stepped in disappointed that the Valar didn't do their jobs.

[@Disruptedable]

I think, the darkness and destruction Saurons rule eventually would inflict, would cause the Valar to finally intervene. Middel Earth to them is, after all, to important. Also, perhaps Sauron him self would grow confident enough in his own power to become a new treat against Arda or maybe even find a way to bring Morgoth back into play. No, I think in the end, had he won, he would have been beaten back sooner rather than later by the Valar and probably any elves who are willing to go back to Middel Earth for the war.

[@claudiosanchez764]

Exactly, Sauron was no match for the full power of Numenor, or the last alliance of elves and men. In the third age there where very few elves left. If to defeat Melkor the vallar send maiar and elves, to topple Sauron probably they would only send a host of elves, maybe guided by some maiar but in the long run Sauron had no chance.

[@Daniel-rd6st]

The thing is, they also just might start over. Remake Arda, as they have done before (Melkor caused several failed world creation songs) and maybe just save the elves from Valinor, which at this point was anyway almost seperated from Arda. Though i dont know if it would be possible to create a new world without Melkors voice.

[@Disruptedable]

@@Daniel-rd6st I cant disagree. When theorising on a “Sauron winning” outcome, there are plenty of interesting outcomes. I do agree on it probably wont be possible to start over entirely without Melkors contribution as his part is fundamental to the overall balance (hence Tolkiens own belief and analogi to both religion and the world as a whole). It is also seen it the unfinished parts from the 4th age, even though peace dominates, evil is slowly finding its way back into the narrative. There cannot be good without evil. Neither can be absolute. Thinking of it now. When neither cant be absolute, then what is the main “goal”? A perpetual hope of something better?

[@Daniel-rd6st]

Well iirc Arda was meant to be a steppingstone by Eru Illuvatar, to what exactly i dont know and i dont know if Tolkien had the time to flesh that part out. But Arda had a finite lifetime and after some Ragnarok like endfight, a new world was supposed to take its place. @@Disruptedable

[@boogienightsmarkwahlberg6011]

Love when people place their trust in completely untrustworthy sources. The Valar are the singular worst thing to ever happen to Arda. They couldnt make the correct choice even if only one was available. BTW, Im not referring to Tolkien's ability to write great characters, I'm referring to the characters he wrote. They are written great, they just suck as rulers, and did nothing but harm to their world.

[@GerardHammond]

excellent. Thank you. Short sweet and factual. Yes I realise it's a made up land but what a land! Wish there was a book about a good Orc

[@GerardHammond]

or even a funny Orc :-)

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

Hobbits would surely be wiped out or enslaved. The men would’ve been dominated. Saruman surely would’ve been hunted down and killed for betraying Sauron. Territory around Mordor would’ve been rules by Sauron directly while the rest of Middle Earth and eventually Arda at large would’ve been ruled by the Nazgûl, the mouth of Sauron and other such servants. The witch king would likely need replacing and Sauron surely would’ve taken back the remaining dwarf rings and the three elf rings, either giving them to elves that stayed in middle earth that he managed to corrupt or just handed them out to other races, maybe increasing the Nazgûl numbers from 9 to 15.

[@Alicorn_]

Sauron already had the dwarf rings, and tried to buy allegiance from the dwarves with them. The Witch-King probably wasn't permanently destroyed in the battle, since his spirit is tied to his ring, and would just need to be 'rebodied'.

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

@@Alicorn_ fair enough

[@TigerofRobare]

The various Men who fight alongside the Orcs and Trolls in the hosts of Mordor also give clues to how life under Sauron would have been. They have their own kings, armies and cultures and answer the summons of the Dark Tower for their own reasons. Some are clearly there of their own volition -- the Southern king Theoden defeats at the Pelannor and then at the Battle of the Black Gate there are Haradrim who refuse to surrender or flee and have to be killed to a man -- but there are also numerous Men who did so out of fear or because Mordor's representatives had lied to them about Gondor and Aragorn makes peace with many after his coronation. It's likely Sauron works subtlely in many places, a bit like how he tried to get King Dain to give him the location of Bilbo, offering aid and protection in exchange for service and maybe supporting the occassional coup to get the ambitious or greedy in charge. Those who resist can be terrified or destroyed.

[@fcsimo]

Would have been interesting to mention what Sauron would have done after recovering the 3 elven rings and how he would have used them…

[@Daniel-rd6st]

Probably given them away again. I mean the rings of power were always meant as a tool to influence or mindcontrol important (political or otherwise) people. Carrying one of those rings grants power, but also puts you under Saurons direct control (at least over time).

[@quartzking3997]

@@Daniel-rd6stSauron didn’t craft the three elven rings though, Celebrimbor did so alone

[@Daniel-rd6st]

True, but they were still bound to the One Ring, thats why the Elves only used them during the time Sauron wasnt in possession of his ring. @@quartzking3997

[@clairesincar9562]

I always thought that if Sauron won, it would look similar to the chaos wastes in Warhammer fantasy, but in a midle earth way.

[@sosig6445]

No thats morgoth. Sauron is a creative and industrious tyrant. He loves creating and order wich is how he was corrupted, thinking he should lead everyone for efficency. In the name of progress in dark sorcery and science he would have turned middle earth into an industrial dystopia. Morgoth however wants utter destruction thus he is the one that would leave middle earth barren

[@mathijs8537]

I'd believe not, chaos want to destroy sauron wants to rule

[@choomaque]

Sauron's demands sound so familiar, like I heard them somewhere before quite recently, without rereading the LOTR in almost 20 years.

[@jkotzer4]

I would love to hear about the humans from the east, or numinor's relationship with the east.

[@mightymulatto3000]

The Valar would just be like an angry kid losing at a video game and hit the reset button. Before this Gondor and Valar would be open air prisons. Tribute in slaves, chickens and orc patrols.

[@mt_baldwin]

This was basically the hook for my D&D world "The prophecy was a lie, the heroes failed and the Dark Lord triumphed. Now what?" A middle earth like world where a dark lord that was basically Sauron had had gotten his MacGuffin, killed all the heroes and won the epic war that was supposed to be his end. The players were of the first generation to fully grow up under his dominion (and of course the prophecy wasn't a lie, just a little late).

[@naturalbornpatriot6369]

In the lands of the Southrons, Easterlings, and nomadic Khand, he was worshipped as he was, a god. Where the blue wizards and Saruman failed, Gandalf prevailed. Moving pieces on a board of his own. Helping reinstall a strong free people’s foothold at Erebor and subsequently Dale, whilst diminishing Gundabad and the orcs of the misty mountains. Saving the stalwart and forever allies of Gondor, Rohan. The story telling and the weaving it all is beyond words for just how fantastic it all was. It’s no wonder it took two lifetimes of Tolkien and his son to truly complete all the stories into a coherent world with languages and history. He said it himself, everything pre-hobbit should be “looked at through the eyes of an historian”.

[@vdimasteremeritus]

Gandalf covers this during the last debate: “If he regains it, your valor is vain and his victory will be complete; so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts.”

[@LordSiravant]

That's the line that made me believe that direct intervention by the Valar a second time was out of the question.

[@psychocuda]

Here's a topic I'm curious to know more about. When Bilbo wrote There and Back Again, and Frodo continued with his Lord of the Rings, what happened to the book? Was it, in effect, published and distributed for all the peoples of Middle Earth to read? Was it given to Aragorn to be put in some library in Gondor? We, as the audience are to be reading it as if they were the memoirs or experiences of those two hobbits, so did Tolkien explain what happened to the book and how it survived?

[@MishMash22]

Had he won, I think his extensive infrastructure building programmes would really have helped buoy up the Middle Earth economy. And kept unemployment at record low levels amongst the Orc community.

[@Lucius_Chiaraviglio]

Pretty impressive that Aragorn _et al_ were able to look into the eyes of the Mouth of Sauron -- I can't see his eyes at all.

[@elialexander-tanner5784]

Thanks! I love these videos.

[@TRDPaul]

I think Sauron would have kept to his word, certainly for a time. Inevitably some of his rules about not carrying weapons or not plotting against him would have been broken and then he would use that breach to justify extracting further concessions and eventually he would rule all of middle earth.

[@DistendedPerinium]

I think he'd use that as a more long term enforcement goal. At first, I think he'd be somewhat lenient on tributes and deliberately put expendable forces out as bait for rebels/insurgents. Once they were inevitably struck, he'd use that as an excuse to lock everything down to get what he really wanted.

[@Silver-Stallion]

Who's that tall figure being circled by the Nazgul @6:33 is that Sauron?

[@nicknorton1031]

Question. If Sauron wins who benefits the most? Like do orcs administration roles? Do the most "evil" humans get promoted because they get onboard with Sauron's plan? Also what is Sauron doing with all this plunder? Build cool statues of himself?

[@jonathancampbell5231]

Evil humans and Black Numenoreans would have been trusted with all the administrative tasks, as they were in the lands to the South and the East where he already ruled. Orcs were more like brutes who enforced his will. The plunder is primarily to feed and arm and clothe his armies, at least during The War of the Ring.

[@felipemoreira7024]

He wouldn't want to be treated as a king, but as a God. He would think of himself as Morgoth's reborn.

[@chemicalburn]

The Warhammer 40k universe with the God Emperor as a stand-in for Sauron is kind of what the future would look like if he won. Sauron would have lead humanity through an industrial and then spacefaring revolution to conquer the galaxy, while having humanity worship him.

[@Julius_Hardware]

Yes Inquisitor - this comment here.

[@ImmortalGodEmperor]

There's also the fact that Morgoth is supposed to show back up eventually, and from what we know while he might appreciate Sauron crushing the elves which harmed him so, it's not possible to ever truly earn Morgoth's favor, so he'd demand pretty much everything Sauron had be turned over to him.

[@jasa_TheRealOne]

I am surprised you got this video under 9 minutes. I would've thought this would've been a 3 hour or 5 hour director's cut video.

[@billjoe8734]

Do you think he’d have ever tried to sail west and to march against Valinor? On a similar note, Do you think Valinor would’ve moved against him?

[@sindrimyr5351]

I doubt he would. He tried to do so with Numenor, influencing The King to march against them. This was at the height of Numenor's power. The largest and most powerful army in the world..got destroyed in an instant by Eru. After that Numenor was destroiyed and Sauron took SO MUCH damage from that he could never again take a fair form pleasing to the eye. I think he learned his lesson from that. He knows he is no match for the Valar and the Hosts of Valinor. Its straight up suicide. His goals are much more centered on Middle earth

[@enzobodean2599]

Bob, do you have a video on why wouldnt Eru let souron win? @indeepgeek

[@curtislowe4577]

Vichy France would probably be a best case. The Final Solution would be that eventually everything would resemble Poland after September 1, 1939. Didn't Shagrat and Dingbat mention that during the second age they ate lots of human flesh? That pretty well insinuates that in addition to slavery humans would be harvested as well.

[@jamessilveria5148]

If Sauron won he would start a company called Amazon, buy the rights to key parts of Tolkien’s works and create a show fueled with cruelty and malice called The Rings of Power.

[@jonathancampbell5231]

C'mon. Even Sauron would not be THAT diabolical.

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

i've had an interesting thought, it's possible that the mouth wasn't actually lying and sauron really would let everyone "rule themselves", but only on the surface. keep in mind what he actually made the one ring for, his original plan was to control the entire world by dominating the minds of all the leaders of the free people's through their rings. many of them are now lost but once he got the one ring back he would be unstoppable without the valar or eru intervening, and since he's immortal he could take as long as he needed to find the rings, gaining the trust of the free peoples over many generations, and eventually convincing them to claim the rings. at the end of the day the easiest way to prevent people from resisting control is making sure they don't realise it's happening (real world moment), and if his plan wasn't discovered at the time it would've succeeded

[@apollosungod2819]

Sauron is still an ancient one so he would have to reincarnate in a physical body and then he would have to gather MORE power... more magic power, more physical power etc... apparently he was a lousy fighter which apart from plot is why he lost despite being at full power and puny human besting him. Therefore Sauron would no doubt seek any possible ancient relics and weapons and ways to become as powerful as close to at least half as much as Morgoth or whatever it could be in theory. Besides that Sauron would have to be aware that the remaining humans and elves and dwarves would attempt to fight back regardless because to believe that he would just rule his regions is foolish. Therefore, eventually Sauron would either attempt to free Morgoth or he would have to mount an attack on the Undying Lands which is what Morgoth would have had to do and as such the Valar and Miar would have no excuse to mount a preemptive strike just like they did on Morgoth if humans and elves failed.

[@saulogadelha5195]

I like to imagine that if sauron had won he would eventually turn middle earth in a world of machinery and clockwork

[@navyreviewer]

I dont see a situation were Eru doesnt get involved in some way. Sauron assumed Eru or Manwe didnt care anymore but I see nothing to support that. They sent the Eagles, a couple times. They sent the wizards. They sent Glorfindal. They sent Gandolf back. Eru even tripped Gollum. So yes they still cared about what happened in middle Earth. I'm sure if Sauron won eventually he would be rewarded with hearing the laughter of Tulkas as he came for him. Game over man, game over.

[@HimslGames]

Damn there should be an RTS where you can control your soldiers as Sauron with an all-seeing eye.

[@rsrocha1984]

For anyone interest in the concept, thats the premisse of Mistborn. The story is set in a world where the chosen one has failed and the darklord has won, thousands of years ago.

[@Leafwalke]

Feels like a timely watch 🙂

[@ThommyofThenn]

Personally, I rather like the black iron spike look. However, I'll finish the video and see where this is going!

[@ergus55]

I've always wondered what would have happened if the Balrog had captured the Ring. War between Mordor and Moria, with Gondor and Lothlorien in between?

[@jackiespeel6343]

And what if Old Man Willow had acquired the Ring (and possibly also the Nine Rings as the Ringwraiths were 'swallowed' in turn.'

[@Epic_BostonMobTales]

Awesome video bro!!

[@deathstroke2697]

He would have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to his new Empire!

[@PyrusCreed]

My guess, Manwe would be like "Shit, we've got to sink another continent."

[@paulm8138]

I thought it is mentioned or alluded to in the Silmarillion that Sauron agreed with Morgoth insofar as creating a realm free from the will/influence of Eru and the Valar, but that his true goal was to create a realm where the souls and spirits of its inhabitants wouldn’t be bound by Eru’s decree of mortality. Hence the rings of power and their effects etc. Of course this end was overtaken by the means but I think it is more compelling than ‘Sauron bad’ or ‘Sauron make world into big factory’

[@JorgeLeonardoMartinez998]

Let’s admit it guys we all low key wanted Sauron to win so we could get a couple more lord of the rings movies

[@thehobo00]

I remember in the video game Lord of the Rings Conquest (underrated imo, but maybe part of that is nostalgia) in the non-canon Sauron campaign he kills basically everyone important who fought against him (Frodo first by the Nazgul, then others like Gandalf, Aragorn and eventually even Legolas and Elrond) and essentially anyone else who survives or surrenders is enslaved; men, as well as elves who are captured or don't flee West, even the hobbits. I remember the narrator saying that light WOULD return to middle earth, but not before a long period of darkness. It uses footage of slaves from the movies to show what it would have looked like. Also, i remember when you kill Gimli in Moria (you can play as a Balrog!) some orc goes "Rest in PIECES, stupid dwarf!" which i think is funny

[@Maurinuus]

If The idea of Sauron winning seems intersting to you, the setting of Mistborn series of books by Brandon Sanderson is actually just that, what if the evil lord won and rule for a 1000 of years, plus it is an awesome book that can be appreciated just by reading the first one

[@jonathancampbell5231]

SPOiLER . . . . . . . . . . . In theory. In practice, it's more like "What if Boromir killed Frodo, took the Ring for himself and locked Sauron in a well?"

[@Maurinuus]

@@jonathancampbell5231? True, both ideas are awesome to be honest 😄

[@isegrim936]

This channel is great

[@MusikCassette]

and how would the valar react to that?

[@freakboy220]

Unless someone came to them, its likely they'd sit on their asses like they've always done unless prompted.

[@GingerTheMusical]

I’m glad the MOS scene was cut from the theatrical release. Killing someone during a parlay is not kingly, even for movie Aragorn.

[@davidv4018]

A reason i prefer the movies over the books (kill me), is that the movies don't give this idea of everything "meant" to happen.

[@Liberater4589]

If he won then the question we would have to ask is: what was Sauron’s tax policy?

[@exnihilonihilfit8645]

He was definitely a big proponent of a tax and spend government

[@Orc_Kisses]

Sauron's defeat traumatised me as a kid. And even 20-22 years after that, I still feel the same. 😒

[@carlcramer9269]

The message of the Mouth of Sauron is eerily similar to that of Putin - Soviet Union's borders restored and the former Warsaw Pact countries neutered and subjugated.

[@deadbrother5355]

According to the ads.....the mouth of sauron is allstate insurance. Choose wisely.

[@twhite9615]

Can we please get a full fan fic book of this scenario?

[@ondrejvasak1054]

Lord of the Rings is often framed as story of good vs evil and as a fight for survival of Middle Earth. I always had doubts about how accurate that was. Sauron can definitely be described as evil and the fate of Middle Earth as described in this video would certainly be terrible, but on the other hand it does not seem significantly worse than being conquered by any random powerhungry human ruler and similar thing probably happened on a smaller scale many times before. I feel that some other authors would be tempted to make the Sauron’s plan more terrible. To liquify all the inhabitants of Gondor to mush while silmuntainously separating their souls from their bodies and then using these souls to destroy Eru Ilúvatar. But I like Tolkiens version better, realistic consequnces fit the story and provide good enough reason to resist Sauron.

[@Gordulan]

Consider this. A cruel human king has but one lifetime that he can guaratee his power, all subsequent generations will either trend away from the cruelty or cause schisms and guarantee rebellions based on the right to rule due to being overzealous with their heavyhandedness. Sauron has all of eternity to settle grudges, debts and enforcement of his rule and will never have to prove his right to rule as long as he shows his presence from time to time if he had won. Sauron winning quite literally means the systematic removal of all hopes, inspiration, dreams and cultural progress for all the losing nations without any ability to mount an effective resistance for all of eterninty. Figuratively speaking sauron winning will lead to the souls of all people being extracted. It's not the victory in itself that is the most horrific part, but the fact that it's something without end.

[@ondrejvasak1054]

@@Gordulan Good point. I like that perspective.

[@redbarchetta8782]

You have the best Tolkien content period.

[@missmist97]

"Eru wouldn't allow it" now there's a theological quandary if I ever saw one 😅 Because Eru allowed worse things than Sauron's machinations to happen. More like Eru - as an omnisient being - knew Sauron wouldn't succeed, because everything that ever was, is and will be is of the Song fashioned into reality by Eru.