Did Tolkien Really Copy Wagner's Ring?

In this video we explore the matter of whether or not Tolkien drew inspiration from, or perhaps outright copied, Richard Wagner's Ring Cycle, as well as examining the true inspirations behind Middle Earth and Tolkien's own words on the matter!
(A thousand apologies to my german viewers for the pronunciation)
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Below are the songs used in the order they are played:
Tannhäuser by Wagner
Ride of the Valkyries by Wagner
Tannhäuser (again) by Wagner

[@tomurg]

Thank you so much for doing my request man! 👍 Whatever Tolkien thought of the man, Wagners opera’s were the 19th century equivalent of the Lord of the Rings as well as Star Wars and Marvel.

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you very much for the idea!!! I hope I did it justice!

[@prettybabey]

great idea!!!

[@ZephyrOptional]

Well done sir! This is a fantastic study of how Tolkien incorporates his many inspirations into his Legendarium. Nothing Tolkien wrote is based off only one specific theme or inspiration. There are many Tolkien KZbin channels but very few that dive this deep into complex subjects back by sources and quotations!

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you very much, it means a lot!!!

[@michaelv2297]

I 100% agree. Keep up the great work man! Always look forward to your video essays

[@lynneframe3390]

We are fortunate indeed. If you want the ‘what’, go to ‘In Deep Geek’. If you want the ‘why’, go to ‘Ink and Fantasy’. Between these two channels, lovers of Intelligent Fantasy are very well served.

[@StrivetobeDust]

They were working from the same source materials (European mythology). Whether Tolkien was influenced by Wagner's take on that material is debatable. Tolkien research as a professor was in those legends (from a linguistic standpoint).

[@MythicalTruthsandMysteries]

Well done sir!!

[@lynneframe3390]

Superb exposition! Thank you.

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you and thanks for watching!!!

[@TurtleTrackin]

People don't realize how familiar this music is. From Bugs Bunny, to Excalibur, to Highlander 2, and even tv commercials, this music finds its way into soundtracks in more ways than we realize. You can listen to Wagner's Ring and as it goes along you say "I've heard this somewhere before!"

[@flaggerify]

The music used on the video is nearly all from Tannhauser not the Ring.

[@onceamusician5408]

It was always self evident to me that both drew their inspiration from another source, the medieval Germanic and Norse myths but even if JRRT were inspired by Wagner SO WHAT?

[@hankskorpio5857]

Thats true!! Alberich the mischievous dwarf could easily fit into the world of Tolkien.

[@ImagineMonkey]

I think, the influence of lotr we should seek in Plato's "republic". Especially, in chapter when Plato writes about Gyge's ring that makes him invisible.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Good comparison of the two works

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

just to give a different perspective on this kinda thing, i've become a writer myself recently (i was largely inspired to do that by learning about the deeper meanings of lotr, which i have you to thank for ink and fantasy) and the creative process can be a very subconscious thing at times. the way my process works is i randomly think of interesting things when my mind is wandering, then i go write them down on my notes app as quickly as possible and i tend to fall down a rabbit hole of adding more ideas that just bubble up out of nowhere. but they don't really come from nowhere, i had a new idea recently and as i finished expanding on it i stopped and realised i'd accidentally used a near identical story structure to a book i'd read a few months ago (both protagonists were troubled young men involved with crime who discovered a magical power, joined a secret organisation and made a fresh start). did i subconsciously copy someone's work? it looks like it but i honestly had no perception of that at the time, and while the stories are vaguely similar his was a lot more positive and focused on the stuff that came after, while mine is shaping up as a discussion of the darker side of humanity, struggles with mental health, and stuff like guilt, forgiveness, addiction and trauma. someone might think i've been unoriginal, but i didn't do it on purpose and at least the way i see it there's no benefit to be scrapping my ideas because they happen to bear a surface level resemblance to someone else's work. and from how it looks i really do think tolkien's case was just a coincidence, but even if wagner's work influenced him on some level what's the big deal? even if you deliberately take inspiration from a previous work that doesn't matter as long as you properly understand the elements you're reusing and have your own interpretations or new concepts to add

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you so much for the comment! I definitely agree, and have had a similar experience with you, I think this happens especially often within the fantasy genre as a whole, but is ultimately good so long as you're truly adding something new. I'm also incredibly glad to have played some sort of role in you pursuing writing, keep it up!!!! Thanks again!

[@witchhazel4135]

I wouldn't worry too much about your story appearing similar on the surface to the other guy's work. It happens to everyone. If I'm remembering correctly, Shakespeare also had a couple of stories nearly identical to some Greek myths. The Bible, too, has stories that are very similar to stories from ancient Egyptian mythology. So, you're in very good company. 😊

[@andrewdavidson631]

Interesting that the background music is from Tannhauser rather than the Ring. Could you not get the right permissions?

[@flaggerify]

Probably ignorance of the music. The Ride of the Valkyries is used briefly.

[@dudeboydudeboy-zj8kd]

Idea. How about the list of the literary influences on lord of the rings? Algernon Blackwood's the Education of Uncle Paul, Haggard's She, Dunsany, The Black Douglas, William Morris' works, The Marvelous land of the snergs, the Princes and the Goblin, Phantastes, and Babbit

[@entwistlefromthewho]

"Both rings are round and that is as far as the comparison goes" is more-or-less what Tolkien said of Wagner's Ring.

[@coconutcore]

Frankly, I don't see how it matters in the first place. It's not like it's the same story, and Wagner (as mentioned) also found inspiration in his own sources, who found inspiration in their own sources, etc. It's pretty beautiful if you ask me. There's such a thing as ripping off someone's work, but this wouldn't be it. Anyway, I think you're right. They were just inspired by the same sources and both came up with a golden ring for their evil McGuffin...which isn't the most unique object and a fairly logical choice.

[@ladymacbethofmtensk896]

No. Tolkien did not copy Wagner. Both men did get the idea of a magic ring that curses its wearer from the same place, though, even though they both did very different things with it.

[@Katnip452]

No. They both have a magical evil ring in a mythical realm. That’s it.

[@tmbarton1961]

The other main differences between Tolkein's and Wagner's rings is how they were made. Alberich the dwarf in Wagner's story stole gold from the Rhine after he was mercilessly teased by the Rhine maidens. He then forged it into a ring of power. The magic was inherent in the gold itself and in the Rhine from whence it came. Alberich may have unintentionally added his anger, anger at being humiliated by the Rhine maidens, into his creation. Wagner's ring corrupts its bearer because it is power that does not rightfully belong to the ring bearer. It was stolen or usurped. For those who would like a Jungian interpretation of Wagner's opera, please read "Ring of Power" by Jean Shinoda Bolen M.D.. Tolkein's villains and anti-heroes also try to usurp power that does not rightfully belong to them. Melkor, Sauron's master, wanted to steal the secret flame of Eru Illuvatar so he could be the Creator God. Sauron wanted to be the God-King of Middle Earth. Saruman wanted Sauron's ring for himself. Denethor the last Steward of Gondor wanted to usurp the role of the king and he wanted to usurp Sauron's ring thinking it would help Gondor defeat Sauron. Tolkein's ring was created by his super villain Sauron and he imbued it with his hatred, malice and magic. Sauron's power was greater than the elves and humans and that is why it could corrupt or destroy them. Tolkien believed that evil could not be destroyed. It must be resisted and in the resistance against evil, evil will end up making decisions that destroys itself. Sauron never imagined that hobbits, beings lower than him, could resist the ring long enough to bring it to its doom. When the hobbits caved in to the Ring in Mt. Doom, their fight to possess it brought about the Ring's and Sauron's demise. Both Wagner and Tolkein used the same type of plot ending-- the ring of power must be destroyed by being returned to its place of origin. Wagner's ring was returned to the Rhine and Tolkein's to the fires of Mt. Doom. While Wagner and Tolkien drew upon the same source material for their artistic stories, they each used their imaginations, their source of magic, to forged their own versions of the ring of power story that will entertain people for eons to come.

[@Tybold63]

Always fun to speculate and "copying" has been made for thousands of years over and over again and made by most writers, composer etc to lesser or larger extent. It is like the bible which is in it's core was made upon earlier civilisations like Sumerian myths and the list goes on. This doesn't take away that compilations cannot be masterpieces by it's own right. Covers and remixes on the musical field can either be bland or just exploitations but sometimes it makes for an excellent artistic interpretation which sometimes live on as the most renown version. Nothing (completely) new under the sun is what I am saying. (Disclaimer is that some science and tech are close, but often made in steps and not giant and sudden event as they can appear to be)

[@dand3953]

Yet, in his own education and expansive observations of literature, who did Wagner develop his own tales from?

[@PARAMOUNTPHLOPYNATOR]

its crazy seeing this after all this time that elden ring ( the game ) has come out

[@deplorabledegenerate2630]

I find it more shocking Tolkein disliked Wagner, though I don't think it takes a sharp mind to determine exactly why that was and the reasons I lean to always disappoint me.

[@hyennussquatch4597]

Wagnerian Gollum plays harpsichord.

[@armorbearer9702]

(0:12) fifteen hours?! I guess they played 3 hours of the Ring Cycle a day. I doubt anyone spent all day at the theatre.

[@drrbo8976]

The Ring Cycle consists of four operas: "Das Rheingold" about 2,5 hours "Die Walküre" (The Valkyrie) about 4 hours "Siegfried" about 4 hours "Götterdämmerung" (Twilight of the Gods) about 4,5 hours These operas are usually performed over 4 days or at most one week.

[@sary4792]

Yo

[@christianefiorito3204]

Nope he does not

[@buninparadise9476]

Everything about Tolkien is copy cat