The Orc Within Us | Tolkien's Philosophy

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks to each one of you that decided to click on this video! I hope you found it as fascinating as I did, when writing the script! If you liked this video and the previous one, rest assured! There's a lot more like it coming (along with regular lore videos!). Cheers and have a great day! 🧙‍♂

[@anna_luin]

I'm a simple orc, I see a CotR video and I click. ✨✨

[@BernddasBrotB7]

'We must care for each other, even our enemies.' How very true.

[@CounciloftheRings]

It actually reminds me of the conversation between Achilles and Priam. I only recall the movie dialogue: Achilles : You're still my enemy in the morning. Priam : You're still my enemy tonight. But even enemies can show respect.

[@BernddasBrotB7]

@@CounciloftheRings There's a great example from the lay of Horatius too, after our hero hurls himself into the Tiber to escape the Tuscan army after holding the bridge against various champions long enough for the Romans to demolish it: No sound of joy or sorrow Was heard from either bank, But friends and foes in dumb surprise, With parted lips and straining eyes, Stood gazing where he sank; And when above the surges They saw his crest appear, All Rome sent forth a rapturous cry, And even the ranks of Tuscany Could scarce forbear to cheer.

[@BinkyTheElf1]

If we dehumanize our opponents or enemies, we dehumanize ourselves.

[@WolfgangWhyte]

"Not everyone who fights you is your enemy. Not everyone who helps you is your friend." - Mike Tyson (make of that what you will).

[@keyseeker1]

So many of Tolkien’s villainous characters are continually offered chances to mend their ways and come back to the light. Denethor, Saruman, Wormtongue, Bill Ferny. Even the Mouth of Sauron is offered terms. And they continually choose - of their own will - to stay on their darker path. Sauron and his orc slaves in Mordor are the inevitable end point of this, when you are so astray you cannot go back. They choose to be fallen, wittingly or not. Great vid.

[@theflyingkaramazovbrothers6]

Indeed. It is pride, the Miltonian Satan type of pride. The act of repenting is seen as debasement, as beneath them, but I think with some of them like Wormtongue and even Saruman there is shame, a shame that acknowledges what they've really become, and a fear of enduring humiliation and hurt at the hands of those they've hurt. They can't believe that people really will (eventually) welcome them back. That's the tragedy of their pride. That even those glimmers of doubt and wanting to redeem themselves they push back, they simply do not see how things can be set right so better to be in charge of being in Hell.

[@Mephy24]

Here I am, opening KZbin for some light entertainment - and I get taken on a incredibly deep, stringent, beautifully constructed and structured self-reflective journey. Dear sir, your videos are true gems!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Wow, thank you! That means a lot, especially when it performs so badly with the algorithm! Thanks! 🙏❤

[@rudign]

isnt beautifully constructed and structured redundant? Great vid tho. Just bein a grammar uruk

[@The_Return_of_JoyBoy]

100% agree

[@The_Return_of_JoyBoy]

@@rudignreally? Lol 😂

[@MrChickennugget360]

that quote from Tolkien about how real war "men fight on both sides" in a motely alliance with "orcs, beasts, demons, men and angels" is the most profound quote about people who fight in wars. In war those are the different kinds of soldiers you encounter. The man: simply tries to do his best and survive and get home. the Beast: does not think for himself, obeys orders blindly and kills on command; like an animal. The Orc: the soldier who steals, loots pillages, rapes and tortures gleefully taking the opportunity to get away with that which under normal social rules they could never get away with. The Demon: fueled above all by hate, desires above all else to destroy his enemies, despises that quarter must be given to the enemy and given the opportunity will kill any and all the enemy, regardless of age, sex or status as a legit combatant. The Angel: while a fighter does not take life when not required to do so, shows pity, mercy and comfort even to the enemy. Even at risk to their own life and even when this might mean being alienated by his own comrades and risking their wrath.

[@Maybeabandaid9]

Interesting topic. I feel Tolkien knew better than anyone just how cruel humanity can be.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Totally. It’s hard to imagine what he might have seen and felt.

[@MorgothEditz]

Yeah cause he served in WW1

[@Maybeabandaid9]

@@MorgothEditz Yup, him serving during WW1 gave him a decent look at it.

[@MorgothEditz]

@@Maybeabandaid9 I think he got more than a decent look 😅

[@Maybeabandaid9]

@@MorgothEditz lol

[@lillyaltland4359]

I'm so happy that you started this series on Tolkien's Philosophy. This is great stuff!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks a lot! There's a lot more coming! I might wait a little with some of the planned ones as I don't want to repeat myself too much, but there's some new stuff coming soon and a few more lore videos; continuing the 'creatures of middle-earth' series 😁

[@thebearska]

Beautiful. Thank you. Any future film/show maker should be required to watch this video and study Tolkien’s vision of reality, especially of good and evil. We criticize ROP for messing with the Tolkien’s lore, which is legitimate, but I think it is even worse that they mess with his underlying worldview.

[@Enerdhil]

Great point. TRoP did not clearly differentiate between good and evil. I think they did this on purpose just to virtue-signal that they were good little Marxists. Was King Durin evil? He should not have been but ended up being evil so he could have his redemption-Kamikaze moment. Galadriel was clearly evil at times. Almost everything she did was to show us that "the ends justify the means." Payne and McKay want to teach us that doing a little evil is sometimes necessary to accomplish a greater good. In other words, they wove in their woke ideology. They showed us a loving Orc family. They had Daddy deservingly killed. Was he a good guy to his family and evil to non-Orcs?

[@ultronemperor3525]

This video just proved me that ROP is doing the right thing with the orcs

[@WolfeRavenwood]

I am a simple Rohirrim, i see a Council of the Rings video, i click a like.

[@RoseBaggins]

Yes, more please!! You are putting into words what I cannot concerning Tolkien's philosophies. I've dealt with a guy who was en route to becoming a Tolkien scholar, then dropped it and him upon finding a couple of sentences from Tolkien's letters he deemed racist. And he completely jumped on the "Tolkien is fascist" band wagon. He wanted me, and others, to be free of the "prison of Tolkien fandom", ironic considering Tolkien's views. I tried my best to argue, but I failed miserably. This has been quite a balm for that as I know someone can say things about Tolkien far better than I ever could. A great many thanks! #ForTolkien

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks! Truly 🙏 These comments mean a lot when the algorithm isn’t helping with the views 😁 There’s sadly a lot of ‘name-callers’ that wants to cancel a lot of people. It’s best to ignore them, as they won’t change their mind 🤷‍♂️

[@weed...5692]

I find it most subversive the way people calling themselves Tolkien's fans use the word "orcism" or its idea, as analogy to "racism", and pretend that that's a flaw of Peter Jackson's movies or a white supremacist trope. You can see the clear intention of spreading the fanatical ideology of progressivism, with its emphasis on "diversity" and all the package that comes with it. Truly twisted people that must be recovered somehow.

[@kahinaloren]

Fantastic video. I love that you are diving into the more philosophical aspects of Tolkien. His collection of letters have dominated my Tolkien reading the last couple of years as I suppose with age my interest in these deeper aspects have developed and matured. There is a large internet football forum I peruse from time to time and they have a thread on the war in Ukraine. They call Russians orcs of course which is semi-official propaganda, and members share videos of some poor young conscript running away in fear from a suicide drone attack, whilst the forum members hoot and holler as the "orc" is killed by the infernal flying machine. Orcs indeed. Thank you again and looking forward to more videos diving into these deeper aspects and how you connect it to the Middle Earth lore.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks! There are indeed many fascinating aspects of Tolkien’s world to dive into. Sounds terrible with people hooting for death. I guess the orc can be found in us all, except those that are able to resist the corruption of evil. I’m afraid there’s no end to it, but speaking up is better than being silent. Anyway, thanks for commenting! There’s another video coming divining into war and if Tolkien glorifies it through his stories (a ‘common’ criticism of his works). Cheers 🧙‍♂️

[@Enerdhil]

​@@CounciloftheRings Great question: Does Tolkien romanticize war?🤔

[@oldAzekai]

No, Tolkien does not glorify war. What. But he does show that people with wisdom or strength to defend their loved ones are laudable. Aragorn, Faramir, Eowyn… the fact that the War of the Ring would result in the heroes ultimate destruction is not a narrative that would appear if the war was, in and of itself, worthwhile. And then the Scouring of the Shire also shows that conflict and small scale war is brutish and sad. Perhaps necessary, but never good.

[@ВладиславВладислав-и4ю]

About russians, them called themselves orcs before 22 year and have many fanfics form orcs perspective.

[@Enerdhil]

@ВладиславВладислав-и4ю That is crazy. Tolkien clearly tells us that Orcs are purely evil and maybe even irredeemable. Why would someone be interested in the perspective of a sociopath?

[@baeromir]

Fantastic video. I had never heard the quote from 1945, gosh it’s compelling. CotR I’ve been here awhile, but I gotta say this is your best one yet

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks a lot! 😁 Glad you liked it 🤗

[@dakinayantv3245]

Great video that sets the record straight. Orcs represent the worst aspects of human nature not an allegory for any group of people.

[@zirkalda9502]

Always a great topic of discussion.

[@TheMysticTable]

This is so spot on! Thank you for creating this. It is the shadow within.

[@Peter-ri9ie]

Another great video. Thank you so much! 🙏🏻

[@Jayako12]

Love the deep insight and references, keep it up.

[@helgestrm9670]

Been anticipating this from your updates! Commenting before watching. Very Excited.

[@CounciloftheRings]

I hope you liked it!

[@CJUzziel]

Very insightful, thank you.

[@KleinKore]

Thank you. Yes the older i get the more i understand Tolkien more and more. And about orcy and the similarity how people can become haunts me for quite a while. No wonder i got sad reading his books, when i did it the first time. I did not understand it yet. It was just that deep truth about the world that is hidden in his books.

[@RoseBaggins]

And, funnily enough, does include all the grey areas many people claim his stories lack. Tolkien was not naive, he looked at the world with hope. Big difference.

[@smoore6461]

A fascinating Deep dive into the nature of "evil" in the world of Tolkien. Great work sir! sounds like the writers of the Rings of power. Evil lacking substance, willfully choosing to defame and pervert rather than seeking to create something new and beautiful.

[@THEHORMAS]

Great Video. Thank you!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Glad you liked it! 🤗

[@Brjdidvr]

Beautiful, thank you for sharing.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks for taking the time to comment! 🙏❤️

[@nalublackwater9729]

Very interesting video, and beautifully put together.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thank you very much!

[@santiagojavierschipani8183]

I almost cried at the end. In fact, a couple of tears fell. Beautiful video. Greetings from Argentina.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks! Awesome you’re from Argentina. It sometimes amazes me how we in this day and age can reach people across the globe to easily 😁 Cheers! 🤗

[@herrdave920]

This is astoundingly insightful, thank you for the video!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thank you! Super happy you enjoyed it! 😁

[@yohan9101]

But does this answer the greatest question of them all, what was Aragorn's tax policy? 🤔 For real though, great video, I've seen some people say that in the lord of thr rings making one side good and the other side evil made the story boring for them because you can't really sympathise with the orcs, of course I always disagreed with that notion and i think this video hits all the spots in explaining why the orcs are like what they are in the story and what they represent.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thank you! Yes, I've heard people make similar complains, but they are rarely willing to listen for why the orcs are like they are :P

[@Enerdhil]

Amazon showed us a living Orc family.🙄

[@yttamhtims]

Magnificent! Very stimulating and shows just what an incredible world and stories Tolkien created. Really well put together, your channel is amazing, keep it up. Am ready for more philosophical thought pieces like this one!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks a lot! More is coming, but we are going into a slow phase due to my final exams 😊🧙‍♂

[@theloremaster792]

Absolutely amazing video! The philosophy of Tolkien, and how that is so well translated into his stories, is what makes his stories on such a higher level than any other works of fantasy, in my opinion. The following is completely subjective, but when I read Stephen King, I feel horrified. When I read H.P. Lovecraft, I feel intrigued and confused. When I watched (because I haven't read) Game of Thrones, I felt depressed. But when I read Lord of the Rings, or these incredible Tolkien-related videos, I am so uplifted, even if only slightly on bad days. It is my dream to be a published author and creator of a mythos like Tolkien's. But I have so much to learn, and have so much growing to do for I am a mere nascent child compared to the great authors I listed above. But Tolkien is one of my greatest inspirations, so being able to watch masterfully crafted videos like this one that help me understand Tolkien's philosophy is such a gift, thank you!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video! I hope it can help in some way with your writing 😁 Best of luck! 🤗

[@theloremaster792]

@@CounciloftheRings Thank you!🙏 Im gonna need it haha. Keep up the amazing work!

[@CounciloftheRings]

@@theloremaster792 Thanks! I can recommend you to read "King, warrior, magician, lover" by Robert Moore & Douglas Gillette, as well. It's great for masculine archetypes.

[@RoseBaggins]

Same!! I hope you get your novels published soon and share them with us!!

[@theloremaster792]

@@CounciloftheRings Oooh I’ll look that up, thanks for the recommendation.

[@mihcim5323]

What a lovely listen. Thank you

[@jakubhamari974]

Thank you for making videos like this ❤

[@CounciloftheRings]

Glad you liked it!

[@arrantir]

This was not just great quality, but so well done all around and I am not even embarrassed to admit that I teared up a bit while watching. So nicely done! Hope to see more similar things soon. It truly is sad how every day especially on social media we will see crowds cheer at suffering of others with not even a slight expression of pity. I liked it how you included Sam’s quote about the wars of Men, for that quote goes through my mind too when I sometimes see those crowds cheer over cruelties on social media, while in reality most of the time it is not an expression of justice or reaction born of compassion, but a simple sadistic pleasure. I enjoyed many of your videos, but this one I think so far is best

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thank you so much! Yes I totally agree that we see a lot of awful stuff on Social media almost daily now. It’s truly sad. Glad you enjoyed the video! 🙏❤️

[@thundercliff93]

Fantastic and touching video! Mange Tak!

[@CounciloftheRings]

@@thundercliff93 ❤️

[@SNWWRNNG]

It is very telling about his inspiration that Tolkien used "orc" as an insult for real people who act wrong multiple times in his letters. What stuck with me the most was Letter 71 about how (humans behaving like) orcs are fighting in WII on all sides, but also how they differentiate them: "Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in 'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course. [...] In real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally honest men, and angels. But it does make some difference who are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se! And what it is all about (or thought to be)." And even then, Tolkien didn't think of orcs as wholly evil creatures without rights - just like the most evil humans retain certain rights and value, whatever they have done.

[@DragonKing-te9wy]

1:40 I have always related this to the devices of humanity (or at least on the third or fourth read of _The Hobbit_ ). I appreciate you using it here

[@ultronemperor3525]

Even Tolkien written that orcs are capable of redemption. He hated the concept of absolute evil. I'm glad ROP is showing this side of his philosophy In a letter of 1954, 153 Tolkien wrote that orcs were "fundamentally a race of 'incarnate rational' creatures, though horribly corrupt, if not more so than many men one meets with today." "I almost wrote 'irredeemably evil'; but that would be going too far. For, by accepting or tolerating their conception 'necessary to their present existence,' even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's, and therefore ultimately good.) The orcs in the series are Tolkien's orcs, and Adar lays bare their ontological status by pointing out some passages present in The Lord of the Rings

[@yttamhtims]

I disagree and think the ROP went way too far in their ‘maybe they aren’t really that bad’ angle. The not so subtle suggestion in ROP that Orcs are fundamentally ‘good’ and would rather just live a simple life, does not sit right at all. In reading the entirety of letter 153, and as outlined so eloquently in this video, Orcs are fundamentally EVIL, and wholly corrupted, influenced and dominated by The Dark Lord (be that Morgoth or Sauron). They are a permanent physical incarnation of the worst of human nature. Possibly not beyond all redemption once whichever Dark Lord exerting their will over them is vanquished, but certainly not while Sauron is at the height of his powers and very much active in the world.

[@Mabon-sz9nz]

Excellent video expressing my own thoughts about the selfishness of war and those leaders who instigate war. Thank you.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Wonderful you liked it 😁🤗

[@Spartan-Of-Truth]

I’m a simple Mirkwood elf. I see a LotR video, I click.

[@jakemeyer8188]

There's a reason that a lot of people around the world refer to the Russian soldiers in Ukraine as 'Orcs'. From what I've heard from UN monitors, it's a well earned moniker. I find it interesting that the term has come full circle...Orcs were modeled after warring soldiers, and now warring soldiers are called Orcs...

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

They were called orcs first by people recognised even by their supporters as war criminals, it's just a dehumanising propoganda technique used by people just as bad.

[@IStealButterdToast]

I always wondered if Tolkien ever dove into the idea of mans inner orc, my question has been answered

[@iamzod]

Excellent vid. Faramir is one of my favs too.

[@CounciloftheRings]

He is great! It’s such a shame he was changed so much in the films

[@istari0]

This is a superb video, one of the best I have ever seen. I have thought about the nature of Orcs a fair amount but I have not previously seen it distilled so effectively down to its essence; that Orcs are what you get when you remove everything that is good and decent from people. And I agree that we all have a darker side and are capable of Orcish behavior. I think that in theory Orcs are redeemable but that in the "reality" of Arda that wasn't going to happen. Their entire history was one of cruelty and brutality, both on the receiving and giving ends. And even once Sauron was gone and there were no more Dark Lords, they still lived in a world where the taint of Morgoth's attempt to corrupt it was still present. In the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag, it's clear they have no desire to escape and go live in peace somewhere; they simply want to be free of Sauron's control. As the centuries of the 4th Age unfolded, the extraordinarily violent nature of Orcs would have been their undoing as they were confronted with the increasing domination of the world by Men. To put it in evolutionary terms, they would have been outcompeted by Men and ultimately died out. I am reminded of a theory I ran across some years ago that suggested that the origins of law in human societies was to deal with the most violent among us; those who could not live peacefully with their fellows. Similarly, Orcs would not have been able to live peacefully near Men or even with each other. There was a comment in your video regarding whether or not humans have always been a violent species. From what I've read over the years, there is ample evidence of human-on-human violence dating back even before we first established permanent settlements. And while I have forgotten the details, I have read about a study that said that if you analyze our evolutionary family tree, we come from a line that includes many species known for high levels of violence against their own kind.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Excellent comment! You raise a lot of interesting ang good points. I don’t think orcs as a group were redeemable, either, but perhaps a few individuals were? We don’t have any examples, but I guess the snaga (basically slaves), might be the best bet. Not that they were exactly ‘good’, but perhaps Eru was able to forgive them? Who knows! And yeah I think you are right. Humans have been violent since the dawn of time. I don’t think everyone has some orc within them, but there certainly are some. It’s just rarely the deeds of angels and good honest plain Men, that gets the attention of the medias these days ☺️

[@oliverstianhugaas7493]

I once told men that "When you all go home I want you to go home as soldiers, not as killers. If something is wrong at home then it is wrong here as well, we will all be filled with anger and hatred, but try to remember that not all of them volunteered for this like we do and what we do against them we will always carry with us when we leave this place and time. Do not show mercy for them, but rather show yourself mercy so that you will not dislike the man you will be in the future."

[@CounciloftheRings]

Well said! 🙏

[@mellonheads]

Great video! Well done 👏🏼

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks a lot! ❤️

[@DragonKing-te9wy]

Also, fantastic ending quote to the video!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks!

[@DragonKing-te9wy]

@@CounciloftheRings You're welcome 😊

[@ledafrost]

thank you

[@christianefiorito3204]

I thought the same thing, seeing what is happening lately in Ghaza. I thought often of Sams speech in Osgiliath

[@luke2470]

Very good. I couldn't help but think about what Imperial Japan did at Nanjing and other evils in history. Orc like definitely

[@alexandarvoncarsteinzarovi3723]

"In wae men become monsters, war create only broken shells of men, scared and tortured husks"

[@christianefiorito3204]

Platoon also has a ring to one of his friends from the battle at the Somme in his newest Video. I think if I remember well the one about ep.1 season 2. Never has been the wisdom of J.R.R.Tolkien and his son Christiophet be so present to me everday I watch the news . And to know that there is a light where no other light can shine

[@Janovich]

Its uncanny to watch Ukrainian war footage and notice how often they use Orc as an insult on the battlefield.

[@whyukraine]

Its because we fight orcs every day. russian society churns them out.

[@MorgothEditz]

Ever since playing Shadow of War i always wonder what its like if u had an orc buddy

[@CounciloftheRings]

Probably not a good friend 😂

[@MorgothEditz]

@@CounciloftheRings Yeah maybe i mean look at Bruz 😂

[@stupich5868]

It's like having a meathead mate who constantly gets into fights.

[@justthinkingoutloud2538]

Fantastic discussion! This is the kind of nuance people like the writers of RoP will never appreciate, so they think they can do better. I love that you described the orcs as victims of evil as much as its agents, and I find orcs almost incapable of goodness thanks to Morgoth's corruption to be far more pitiable than those who have loving families and still grow up to be horrible violent monsters. I imagine that just as Morgoth poured his malice and corruption into the fabric of the world, he poured it in far greater concentration into the first orcs, imbuing them with a hatred for all light and goodness. We know orcs had agency and hated their masters, obeying only out of fear, but they never express any desires of their own not related to war, plunder and violence, because that is all they know.

[@Spartan-Of-Truth]

Fantastic view!! Wow!

[@Mikatus1]

A great video!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Thanks!

[@Mikatus1]

I hope you have a happy halloween 👻 !

[@CounciloftheRings]

@@Mikatus1 and likewise!

[@Angrenost02]

"If more people valued food and cheer and song over hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world"

[@CounciloftheRings]

Exactly!

[@dylans0630]

1:12 that painting is absolutely amazing 🥲 I wish I knew what it was called and who made it.

[@CounciloftheRings]

It's just AI. I made it to mix Mordor with a WW1 battlefield. I can send it to you on Discord, if you want to use it for something!

[@dylans0630]

@@CounciloftheRings oh no, I was just wondering. You did very well. And thanks. I have my own art Ai thing.

[@VidkunQL]

It's been too long since I last read the books, but I don't remember the orcs being described as so physically _ugly._ I think that Peter Jackson's orcs are textbook examples of the "Evil is Ugly" trope; they don't just look like human beings with ugly faces, they look diseased and filthy, with lumpy skin, matted hair and crooked, rotting teeth. I understand why a filmmaker might want them that way, but I think if you come to rely too much on ugliness as an indicator of evil, you may lose sight of the fact that the important thing about the orcs is their _behavior,_ not their _looks._ And I never miss a chance to praise "The Last Ringbearer", a tremendous fanfic based on the idea that LoTR is the history of the War of the Ring as written by the victors, and that there is another side to it.

[@Billpro25]

Physically ugly, but not to the point of disfigurement like Peter Jackson's version. They're specifically described as (I am paraphrasing here) 'ugly mongols' by Tolkien himself in his letters.

[@alexkats30]

As someone who wants wars to be avoided at all costs, this is one of the reasons I like games like Total War, LOTR games etc, that let me channel these internal impulses (or culturally imposed male drives) for battlefield glory in a video game, rather than seek it IRL myself or either by proxy, by expecting others to die for some conceived tribal benefit.

[@offtheshelfET]

Since we’re talking about societal and philosophical themes in Tolkien’s work I’d be curious to see you cover the topic of female roles in his books. Obviously Tolkien came from a different time and might have held some outdated beliefs about women but I think many interpret him and his stories as being misogynistic which I strongly disagree with. There was one paper in particular covering Tolkien’s views on woman called “Flawed and Formidable: Galadriel, Éowyn, and Tolkien’s Inadvertent Feminism” which, although well researched and formatted, I think made many unfair presumptions about the man and took his words out of context on multiple occasions to prove his apparent misogyny. It’d be a fascinating topic to delve into if you’re ever looking for new topics to discuss.

[@CounciloftheRings]

I actually started working on a script about it last week ☺️

[@Billpro25]

Misogynist is bit far, but he was sexist. If we have to compare him with most of his contemporaries however, then he was quite the egalitarian (though I suspect Tolkien would dislike this characterization).

[@PhilosophyForTheMops]

The allegory is very powerfull, it works both ways. We have modern imperialists that identify with Mordor and the Orcs. They write amazing fan fiction with historical tsars helping Souron out with the administration ...

[@TomaszOdkrywca]

Subscribed ❤

[@CounciloftheRings]

Awesome! Welcome to the Council!

[@michaelman957]

Since the moral culpability of the orcs is reduced by their enslavement to the point of being nigh non existent, I think that in the afterlife they'll be shown much mercy, at least among those who did not willingly become orcs.

[@SheonEver]

I think anyone, no matter how twisted, can be redeemed, they just have to want to be better, and act on it... but if someone doesn't want to be better, doesn't have any doubts about their actions and doesn't feel remorse for the people they've hurt, they can't be redeemed -- people redeem themselves through right thought and right action.

[@yttamhtims]

..unless you are utterly and hopelessly dominated by a Dark Lord! 😂 and there are plenty of those in this world we live in

[@SheonEver]

@@yttamhtims Yes, though the phrasing is fantastical, that's essentially the truth; middle earth, ww2 or today. If you are living to fulfil the vision of a powerful person and are justifying harm you cause and pushing down any remorse, you're on a dark path and can't be saved by a third party. You have to break free from their influence first.

[@cosmicprison9819]

“The world is god’s and therefore good” is the most outrageous snuck premise the religious keep getting away with. Now I see why they’re so hellbent on the idea that “evil cannot create” (as if propaganda movies and the countless pompous buildings created by authoritarian societies hadn’t long proven the opposite - that evil can most certainly create, and worse, a lot of people keep falling for its creations). Because if evil cannot create, then creation must be good by definition. But that is simply a foregone conclusion, a result of their own survival biases.

[@elizabethdavis8264]

Your example of propaganda is a poor one. Propaganda is information that has been twisted to serve a corrupt purpose. It's very like the phenomenon this video is talking about.

[@Home_Rich]

​@@elizabethdavis8264 Propaganda is a persuasive technique, which tries to manipulate your average person, be it with music, film, or even more recent, adverts. It's just not as blatant, as back then. Propaganda is an unnecessarily demonised word, yet not many know its true definition - enthusiasm, certainty and pride. Not every manipulation is inherently evil, like let's build a scenario: Your job is to save a man from jumping off of the bridge, "don't do it" won't work, so you as (I assume) an attractive woman, tell the guy you love him. Deep inside you don't mean it, but it worked! He got reminded, what is his purpose in life. You lied to save a life! The line between persuasion and manipulation is as thin as a spider's silk.

[@lanetomkow6885]

Only in Western philosophy could you see this on the individual level. Thus, limiting the influence of elites. Eastern philosophy is too collectivized to achieve this. Hence, the evil men of the East. My humble take on things.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Tolkien's letter to his son reminds me of Mormon's letter to his son (Moroni chapter 9): "O the depravity of my people! They are without order and without mercy. Behold, I am but a man, and I have but the strength of a man, and I cannot any longer enforce my commands. And they have become strong in their perversion; and they are alike brutal, sparing none, neither old nor young; and they delight in everything save that which is good; and the suffering of our women and our children upon all the face of this land doth exceed everything; yea, tongue cannot tell, neither can it be written." The Book of Mormon is a tragic story of human corruption.

[@rudign]

I love when you breakaway from rings of power to give your expert insight Discount Drinker! In all seriousness, this is good content. Great job. Its amazing what you can do when you dont focus on things that are negative (edit yes i actually liked the video)

[@BillyTheKidder]

Nah uh… Cause, Rings of Power said Orcs are actually misunderstood and the system is oppressing them!

[@christianefiorito3204]

No that was an error its in Tolkien betrayed number four about the death of Isildurs friend, comparing it to the letter about the feelings and thoughts he had about this friend in a letter to snother friend who died 5 months later.

[@philipdawes2661]

If the orcs are redeemable, is Morgoth? (serious question).

[@elizabethdavis8264]

Theoretically yes. The valar even tried to reform him once but he persisted in his own corruption. I'm not sure what his existence is like in the void, whether he experiences space and time would his affect his ability to change if he ever wanted to.

[@bomaniigloo]

B...b....but the rings of power told me that the orcs were just misunderstood and they just wanted a white picket fence in the shire!!

[@JSFal]

For orcs redemption I like to think of it from funnily enough a perspective of C.S Lewis. In short I believe that orcs spirits cannot be redeemed in thier corrupted bodies, or by the power of Men and Elves. But once freed from their corrupted and ruined forms that Eru, or the Valar can reedem their spirits. Then those that were meant to be elves can be rehoused in elven bodies and those that were meant to be Men can enjoy the afterlife Eru has for them.

[@Billpro25]

Un-alive them all, and let the gods sort them out? Is that what you say?

[@JSFal]

@@Billpro25 that is a way of putting it simply yes. Though I do pefer the uncensored word 'kill' still.

[@Billpro25]

@@JSFal I had it posted it uncensored and get my comment deleted enough times to use the censored word. I hope however you understand what this sort of mentality implies.

[@ishmaelforester9825]

Orcs are applicable as Tolkien says. But you are meant to imagine the Orcs as real things, their own thing, that actually existed long ago. 'I'm entirely historically minded.' They're not an allegory representing some men and they are not meant to represent something within man. They're pure creatures of imagination that stand for themselves. An Orc is an Orc.

[@ishmaelforester9825]

He gets them from the idea of Goblins etc in fairy tales. He imagines, what if they were real? He creates the orcs to satisfy that need, with no intention of allegory or psychodrama.

[@Rawdiswar]

Calling Russian troops “orcs” online by keyboard warriors was popular in the early part of the Ukraine/Russia conflict.

[@laFestivities]

How can you misuse free will?

[@FluffyVicky]

I started calling really bad people orcs, some are no humans anymore after what they have done. I use it seldom tho.

[@rattlejaw9976]

I'm a uruk hai

[@rathgarredbeard4808]

Orcs sound a LOT like "Z - eye - 0h - n!st is - Ray - Lee's"

[@yttamhtims]

Totally missed the point and content of the whole video did you even watch it. War brings out the worst in human nature. On ALL sides. All sides have Orcs, Men, Angels. Everyone has it in them to become Orcish. Not everyone has it in them to resist.

[@rathgarredbeard4808]

@@yttamhtims If you can reconcile all the direct KILL orders that "their" so-called "g0d" gives in the "buy - Bull" with "Thou shalt NOT KILL"; then you can rationalize anything.

[@rathgarredbeard4808]

@@yttamhtims "Is - Ray iLL?" Luke, you will never find a more wretched hive of scum & villainy anywhere." Much to learn you have, much to learn young padawan, lol....

[@SergiuSalcau00]

Tolkin specifically mentioned LOTR has nothing to do with WW1 and he EMPHATICALLY mentioned he disliked allegory.

[@Lord_Machiavelli]

I would rather be orc than man, cruel than loving

[@cyberdaemon]

How can orcs be made from humans when they predate the human race?

[@CounciloftheRings]

I think you misunderstood the entire video

[@Enerdhil]

Orcs are supposed to personify evil. I think the way Tolkien portrayed evil in his Legendarium is very different from the Christian understanding of evil. In the Bible, it is clear that human beings are born with a sin nature. It isn't because Adam and Eve passed it down to all of us. The problem is that we are born to sin. Only a small fraction of the world's population reaches the level of evil that an average Orc reaches. So if you think all of us have a potential Orc within, then I can't agree with that premise. In the Legendarium, evil seems to be something that Melkor himself created during the Ainulindalë and this evul is infused into Arda as Morgoth's Ring. [Eru, like God the Father, did not create evil, but simply allowed it to exist. All this in order for us to have free will to choose good or evil.] Personally, I think of Orcs as Biblical Demons, which means I don't believe that they are redeemable. So I don't believe that everyone has an "Orc within." That is a special level of evil we have recently seen from Hamas. The total genocidal elimination of peoples is what Orcs live for. I am assuming that you mean mankind when you say "us." So, I can agree that some human beings have Orcs within them. However, that number is a small fraction of the world's population.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Nah I don’t believe everyone has some orc within them, but in times of war (or similar conflicts) it becomes more clear who are orc-like and who rise above that. As Tolkien said, it’s an odd alliance consisting of Men, Orcs, beasts, demons and angels. All we can do is to strive for being Men (or angels, if possible). We just mostly hear or the truly gruesome stories of ‘Orc-work and Orc-deeds’. Cheers! 🧙‍♂️

[@Enerdhil]

@@CounciloftheRings I think war can turn a normal person into a monster. There are some cases of that happening during the Vietnam War. I don't think that evil Orc was in that person until he had an experience that broke him and resulted in him becoming a sociopath and killing innocent Vietnamese women and children. I think Orcs are sociopathic before a war even starts. They bring the evil with them.

[@lyy1dew]

Morodor = Palestine Rivendale = Israel

[@Home_Rich]

Dwarfs speak in the form of Yiddish. Just saying.