Dilemma Podcast: Palestine Collection Part VI: Collapse of Zionism and Forgiveness with Ilan Pappe

Find the full collection of conversations and essays here: whatjaythinks.com/palestine-c...
00:00 Introduction to Ilan Pappe
02:47 A Different Approach
08:03 Pappe's Approach to History
13:14 A Turning Point in the Historical Research
18:34 Why We Underestimated the Last 6 Months
26:37 The Violent End Cycle of the Zionist Project
36:36 The Role of Religion and the Flavor of Palestinian Anger
44:17 Solidarity Between the Oppressed
54:09 The Zionist Lobby and What has Changed
1:04:59 Social Media and Alternative Media's Increasing Role
1:12:40 How Dark Will This Get?
1:19:08 And Essay On The Limits of Redemption and Forgiveness

[@lady-bug939]

Ilan Pappi! A great man with tremendous courage and compassion to fellow humans.

[@enkaiscott]

A well-known Palestinian writer, Walid Daqqa, died on April 8, 2024. His body will not be released until his prison term serves out until 2025. This is a rare and controversial practice to withhold the body of the deceased. His prison term was over, but Israel refused to release him, despite having terminal cancer, extending his stay in prison because he authored children’s books while in prison. It’s hard to name another state that follows similar practices. This demonstrates for your viewers the cruel nature of Israels illegal occupation, inhumane treatment and unjustifiable stance on all things.

[@lawrencekamala4836]

And some people have the audacity to call it the only democratic state in the Middle East.Cleary it is not a normal state and ahould be treated as such by the rest of the world.

[@bensweiss]

I appreciate Ilan Pappi, Avi Shlaim, and Norman Finklestein. Those historians (and multiple lectures on the history on Zionism and Protestant Christianity's role) and Mondoweiss, the Gray Zone, Electronic Intifada, Owen Jones, Middle East Eye, Marc Lamont Hill, Bad Faith (channel), Katie Halper, Gabor and Daniel Mate, Sound of Anarchy (channel), GDF (channel), Countless Israeli's, Countless former Zionist's, Breaking Points (channel), Rabbi Weiss, Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, Kyle Kulinski, Novara Media (channel), Matt Lieb, and lately Good Guy Politics (channel) and Tadhg Hickey have helped me in deconstructing whatever Zionism I had in me. Thank you for this conversation. For those who view this hostility through religion, and doctrine can be problematic, I'd hope that you can retain empathy for all as those within any religion or dogma are human and potential allies if they deconstruct religion or dogma. For me, their humanity is enough. As for questioning "Queers For Palestine" if you have a problem with it then you do. Those people with those beliefs are living their lives and their values. They are humans supporting humans and that is important to them. If you think you know better, ok. I do not think they are going to change for anyone as they would experience dissonance if they behaved in any other way.

[@lamusiqueafricaine]

Same experience!

[@ant3le]

👌

[@user-gh7ep9np3s]

You forgot to mention Amy Goodman with Democracy Now

[@bensweiss]

@@user-gh7ep9np3s If you find them helpful, informative, and timely then great! I did not.

[@MalcolmMacPhail-mt1gt]

You forgot the OG anti-zionist Noam Chomsky.

[@ChristinaGerlach]

The Israeli State had crossed the line by any standard of human decency. Before October 7th, and before its latest abomination in Gaza

[@dreamcatchersong]

One of the more thoughtful and humane treatments of the current phase of the conflict that I've heard. I'm a now-Jew but am aware of a Jewish friend of mine who refuses to discuss any aspect of the conflict even though they are especially equiped from an academic perspective to do so. But, although this frustrates me greatly, I think more of this person's friendship than to push the matter with them, I think they already know that they are on the historically wrong side of this tragedy and I hope that some day they will acknowledge it to themselves.

[@nadimovitch9237]

Better to be true to yourself in the long run. Unfortunately friends come & go. The truest stay till the end. If u can't discuss it, ur being censored. Be lucky.

[@susieharmon2229]

iT MAY BE THE LOVING FRIENDSHIPS BETWEEN jEWS HOLDING DIFFERENT VIEWS OF THE GENOCIDE IN GAZA. THE PEOP;E WHO WON'T CALL IT A GENOCIDE INDULGE US AS FERIENDS BECAUSE SOMEHING HAS GOT TO TRANSCEND THIS OPPOSITIONAL SEPERATENESS; LOVE. BUT HOW CAN WE LOVE SOMEONE WHO THINKS MERCIFULNESS WOULD BE TO KILL ALL PALESTINIANS?

[@dreamcatchersong]

@@nadimovitch9237 perhaps

[@markbahouth2713]

the Zionists would say that the drone attacks on the World Kitchen vans was Friendly Fire . 🙄

[@anonanon6369]

well indulging their friendship without challenging them or taking a stance whereby a consistent and adamant, boundary of moral objection exists between the two of you, sadly normalises and tacitly sustains the status quo i.e injustice and oppression of the actual righteous victims, the palestinian.

[@ahmadurrani]

Im so glad this video randomly landed on my feed. I later realized that there is a whole series so will go back and start from the 1st one. Always nice to hear Ilan Pappe

[@phillipblair9511]

Thank you for interviewing Prof. Ilan Pappé! 🙏🕊

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

It was my pleasure. Thanks for watching. Make sure you check out some of my other conversations in the series, particularly Richard English who is lesser known in the Israel/Palestine conversation generally but discusses some crucially important subjects!

[@rezrunnercl]

I love this teacher and respect his wisdom and balance. I started on 10/7 as ignorant and neutral. As time passed, i developed a horrible image of Israel. Their attitudes and behaviors have been repulsive. This podcast actually helped me to feel more patience and empathy. I was starting to view Israel as less than human. Even as evil. Understanding more, helps me understand we only know what we are taught. We somehow need to share knowledge and truth without hatred. The world need to think through our next move "thoughtfully." This isn't really about Judiasm or religion much at all. Rwligion is mis- used as a human shield. It's really just political ideology.

[@artschool673]

It is land theft, ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[@garyhoddinott9076]

I appreciate the calmness and rationality in this discussion. It's a releif to know that there are people in the world who are still willing - and prepared - to apply reason to the madness we have been witnessing these past few months.

[@user-cq7dn9ip4l]

Thank you for this great interview!

[@fadius17]

One of my favorite guests. An incredibly important and powerful voice that we all need at this time. As a Palestinian American thank you so much for your courage Ilan. Great questions Jay. Really helpful in understanding the truth with all the misinformation out there.

[@rimmghir6605]

Everyone must listen to this conversation. Very important and informative. Thank you

[@evangel1737]

I clicked on it because of Illan Pappe but am pleased to see you've interviewed others i have deep respect for. I've liked and subscribed. Thanks for standing how you are.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Thank you so much. Most of my archive (not on youtube or in video form) is deep philosophy stuff which I usually do. But the Palestine Collection is too important to not do at the moment. Thanks for keeping an eye on me.

[@sarunds74]

Please interview Nurit Peled-Elhanan. Her interrogation of the indoctrination of Israeli children is vitally important to this conflict.

[@evangel1737]

I agree. She'd definitely add to this subject for your audience

[@germanbula7367]

Thank you! this was incredibly enlightening and healing!

[@user-vu4of5cc1x]

👏👏👏👏👏I love the interview but even more so your monologue essay. 👍👍👍❤❤❤

[@mauricehalfhide3982]

I am just someone watching on in horror from another part of the world and I appreciate all who are courageously stepping forward to furth understanding. Thank you for what you are bringing to humanity at this moment. If you haven't already done this, I think it would be nice to have your essay as a its own upload as well. Peace.

[@HamidRehman100794]

Jay, I just happened upon your channel. I am so glad that I did. You have the most insightful way of asking the questions about this situation. I appreciated your commentary after the interview with Ilan Pappe. You made a profound observation that to get to a solution the Palestinians must be offered a future where their human dignity and rights are realized, and Israelis must see a future where forgiveness happens to free them from the shackles of sunk cost fallacy. That was a deep and perceptive way to point to a direction that takes us to peace. Please keep on doing your excellent work and inviting such great guests who restore our faith in humanity. You sir are a credit to your people and humanity in general. I wish you a million subscribers.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Thank you so much. Much love.

[@craftspaces4475]

Jay, I congratulate you and thank you for all the effort and generosity in preparing and sharing those episodes

[@user-xs7is4lq6u]

i like this Israeli expert for many years 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@user-df3sx2vl3l]

Just found this podcast. Great conversation, both parties. Very instructive, informative, educational.

[@giorgiomariani7238]

Thank you for these very important, useful, and crucial videos. You are doing a great job. And Ilan Pappe is simply one of the most brave, honest, and conscientious intellectual around.

[@nosratalamdari4285]

Thank you

[@margaretk.haydon3137]

Thank you for hosting Ilan Pappe. I tryto watch everything he is in. And also, thank you for your words on forgiveness. awill there ever be a day of reconciliation between Israeli's and Palestinians? I don't know what has to come first. Reconciliation or forgiveness.

[@l23918]

So happy to see This precious historian who speaks the truth and humanity for the history and plight of the Palestinians.❤❤ may he live to 120.

[@rouxbe3595]

Ilan forgot to mention the original American alternative media source on Israel & Palestine: Mondoweiss. In 2018 Israeli journalist Amira Hass cited it as a must-read venue for understanding Israeli policy. Thank you for continuing to have these important conversations. Your interview style and questions allow your guests the opportunity to respond with fresh insights and deep knowledge. I especially appreciate how you draw out the evolution of their personal perspectives on events and issues as they have unfolded over decades. This is so helpful in this critical and terribly painful moment as many of us sort through what we thought we knew for so much of our lives to be true, as well as things we wished to be true but aren’t. May I suggest an interview with Avi Shlaim? I feel like the precious voices of his generation need to be heard before we lose them.

[@yhamilajojo8847]

Thank you so much for this intelligent and very interesting perspective... Beautiful humanity

[@markbahouth2713]

Mr Shapiro and Mr IIan Pappe this dialogue and show and both of you are very professional and immensely intelligent , but do not rest. there is always the need to hone your craft . i am going to store this presentation for repeated viewing because there so much i can learn from Mr Pappe . thank you. 👍❤

[@markbahouth2713]

Jay Shapiro this Dialogue is the equivalent of a Billboard number 1 hit record 👍 thank you.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

@@markbahouth2713 thank you so much for the kind words.

[@markbahouth2713]

@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost i should thank you and i do .

[@markbahouth2713]

i probably should repeat Mr Papee stance that a one state Solution is the only viable solution . Democratic and a separation of religion and Statehood . it wont be a easy thing to bring into fruition the Zionist will resist it but sooner or later they are going to have to accept it .

[@jameseverett9035]

Thank you for both being courageous Jews speaking the truth! You are heroes ❤

[@alajnabiya]

That was excellent. I'm familiar with Ilan Pappe's presentation, but the essay at the end was new and wonderful.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Thank you so much.

[@fminc]

KUDOS Jay. Subbed.

[@fibanacci8]

Essential content..

[@61bullet43]

The world is held hostage by Izzy.

[@61bullet43]

An Israeli called Palestinians Nazis today, on eljezera.

[@Kiran-uu4wq]

As a listener i am curious as to why no Palestinian scholars were interviewed for a series about Palestine

[@sandrajayne5446]

Just found your channel, Jay. And just subscribed,,,

[@nourkhaled8888]

That was great and informative. Keep up the great work. These videos will one day act as a reference for those who stood against genocide and ethnic cleansing and those who just let it happen.

[@loranvanbenthusen2408]

Excellent interview. Really insightful questions. Check this out. Apologies are powerful An apology is the first step in forgiving yourself and forgiving others. Apologies are powerful. How often do you hear those two lines? Often in our society we think of apologies as a sign of weakness. “Never say you’re sorry. “ How many times of you heard that? I say that an apology can level the playing field. It can defuse an explosive situation like a magic incantation. Ultimately, it allows others to see and hear that you can take responsibility for your actions. And the most beautiful side effect? You can forgive yourself for carrying around that burden in the first place. Powerful Forgiving someone first begins with forgiveness for yourself. If what others are saying hurts you. Then there is some part of you that believes it as well. A way to let go of that personal hurt is by apologizing. To yourself and others. Own it. Acknowledge it. Physically saying “I’m Sorry” Opens space to communicate. Even with yourself. Say it multiple times over long periods of time if necessary. To yourself but especially to others. Because until you are not personally offended by what you hear from others... then deep down… You still believe part of what you’re hearing. Healing is a matter of time and forgiveness. But it is also a matter of great opportunity. Let it go. Apologize. Unburden. Communicate

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Thank you. Beautiful.

[@kieranoconnor4334]

Just found this.......Intellegent, Cogent, balanced and fascinating!

[@Laight4work]

great job

[@tellthetruthna8523]

I have watched the entire Palestine Collection and I just wanted to thank Jay Shapiro for providing this content. I don't know if he realizes how important this collection is, but hopefully he will one day. The amount of work he put into it is evident. The collection is so well produced, and his guests are all top notch. I'm certain it was no easy task for him personally. I would love to see more in this series, but fully understand if this is the final episode. Anyway, thank you so much and best regards.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Thank you so much. Sending my love. I usually like to work behind the scenes in the philosophy world... so this all was a bit much for me but I absolutely appreciate the kind words. I will try to stay engaged... the issue is far too important for me to not keep trying.

[@zacksilber-coats352]

"Final interview of the series." Famous last words lol

[@rojanumer3921]

You are brillant

[@reganjo1955]

4:34 - not being Jewish, I haven’t had that difficulty. The one I had to overcome was fear of the flack. I think some liberals are now, partly, maybe be temporarily disillusioned with Israel, because of the celebrity chef aid workers killings. Far be it for me to criticize any moral awakening but this one seems especially self-referential… I like the way you put this idea, essentialism earlier in the talk with identification, a potent combination, which would create at the very minimum existential dread, questioning Israel, and worse ego death questioning the righteousness of Israel.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Thank you. For a fuller discussion of the essentialism idea check out the first piece of this series. 🙂

[@dan45321]

Speak to Norm Finkelstein who is absolutely THE Foremost expert on GAZA. He has the best ever response to the "self hating jew" accusation.

[@subversivelysurreal3645]

You need to watch : Israeli David Sheen (he is anti Zionist) and his lectures are : Messiah Mode, Israeli Politics Decoded, and African Refugees. Stay steadfast 🇵🇸❤️✌🏽

[@Mur76ad70]

Freedom for Palestine

[@victormeidan1062]

In Jordan ! Yes !

[@reganjo1955]

55:57 -very good point. I didn’t pick up that shift in making believe Palestine doesn’t exist to don’t reward terrorism. I’m gonna pay closer attention to their words now to catch that theme

[@JohnWilliams-wz9vk]

As a US ARMY RANGER QUAL PARATROOPER .expert on light .heavy weapons..including qualified on 2...Tac Nuke systems. This situation .along with Ukraine is what happens when you mix Petro Dollar .with Intelligence Onion...layered .and it..stinks ..

[@cme1713]

Connections are Eye Opening. CLOSER TO HOME 🇺🇸 Truth is Stranger than Fiction #FREEHAITI EZILI DANTO LAWSUIT Join the HAITIAN Revolution for FREEDOM August 1791- Present...

[@DonGonzalito]

Or perhaps the Spaniards facilitate citizenship to Peruvians for the exact opposite reason to what you guesss: because they fraternally recognize them as part of a same cultural continuum.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

This is also an interesting point and likely part of the analysis. thank you.

[@sylviabendavid]

If Israel in 1948 did not consider having allies, do you think the Israelo-Palestinian struggle would have started? It's difficult to imagine people turning up to a country without any endorsement from anywhere? It's very confusing to be and not to be allied? The consciousness in Israel was utterly rooted in the belief that Palestinians was a solitary camp standing alone? Isn't that simplistic and naive? That what dragged for so long this ridiculous situation. By the way, the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians has undeniable repercussion on the unity and cooperation between countries all over the world. Peace in the Middle East will attract and induce peace in the world. Incredible Joyous and Happy event to look forward. Very exciting!

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Interesting questions. And yes I agree with what I think you are asking. The Zionist project could have never succeeded without the support of powerful outside allies (most fueled by the shame of failures in WW2). We have a bumpy road ahead but I hope to get to your last sentence too. I'll meet you in Jerusalem on the day the walls come down and we can all hug and hope for a better future :)

[@victormeidan1062]

​@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost So according to your analysis, 10 million Israelis, with a GDP of $550 Billion is going to somehow disappear ?

[@humanitesfmira4181]

❤🙏❤️

[@ree5403]

❤❤

[@ana-OM]

Phenomenal 🫂from Frankfurt 🌹

[@Sana0567]

Said Edward: The pal problem with Isr is not what he has done to Pls, but he has not acknowledged.

[@aichael326]

Everyone can see the truth in this matter. But for some reasons many people when they're not sionists, they prefer to side with those who look like them

[@user-ge9rx3xe8n]

The Yom Kippur war of 1973 resulted in the world wide oil crisis. What part does the massive oil wealth in the Middle East play in this current crisis?

[@jamilkassab798]

It is comforting to find out i am not the only one shocked /disappointed by S.Harris position on killing people in Gaza. I'm glad to know ur good works. Keep it up Jay and good luck.

[@rosanaa1471]

Just bought Prof Ilan Pappe's book.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Excellent. Keep an eye out for his new one he mentioned it's called "Lobbying for Zionism"

[@victormeidan1062]

​@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost What's the point of reading Pappe's nonsense ? Everyone in Israel knows the guy's completely insane. Unfortunately, so long as he does not threaten anyone else (or himself), he cannot be committed an institution for treatment.

[@matthewvicendese1896]

I like how you bring up the holocaust and anti semitism being used as cover for settler colonialism. I am now 48 and grew up a born again Christian, so I knew about that false history. I also encountered serious antisemitism when I was around 12 when another boy I was with spat on a sign at a Jewish school saying "effing Jews". I was shocked because I grew up aware that the supposed son of god was a Jew. It was around that time that I became aware of Palestine/Israel as well. It was at the same time I was become aware of the history of my country (Australia). It was apparent to me that what was going on in "Israel" was exactly erily similar to the crimes that built Australia, and other settler colonies. I always cheered for the Indians in Hollywood movies, but Dances with Wolves came out a year or two later and that really set me off on my current journey. What always struck me since my teens is that Israel is a blight on humanity. Not just Jews. I have thought if people who went through what Jews did in Europe in general but the Nazis in particular could then turn around do the same thing to people who are their genetic brothers and sisters. Just like the abused often turnaround and become abusers later in life, it feels like this can be done by a group. It was hard to have these points of views in the 90s and early 2000s, especially as a man who feels solidarity with the Jews for their struggles in European societies and colonies, to hold this point of view. No one is free until Palestine is free, especially Jews and Israelis.

[@matthewvicendese1896]

Oh and thank you for interviewing the great man.

[@salimi.sheriff7608]

Just found you bros

[@Sana0567]

The West always see the resistance movements as ideological. There is reason for that. People regardless of their religion want to live in dignity. But the difference between secular politicians and religious ones is that seculars gets corrupted easily in the middle of the route, but faith based resistances withstand pressures, sanctions, assassinations and hardship and continue to reach their goal s. They eventually may crooked, but at least the others take the lead.

[@Sana0567]

It’s astonishing about Ilan point that for years Isr has been trying to demolish Muslims grand mosque by small cracks on its foundation, but in reality they have entered cracks on their own credibility and existence and they fall apart before anything happens to the mosque. The mosque has its own powerful protector. Almighty Allah.

[@victormeidan1062]

Allah knows the Land of Israel belongs to Bnei Israel. All of it And FOREVER.

[@grahamsmithwick6822]

QUESTION Don’t we forgive for our own sake not for the. Unforgivable

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Its a good thought, and I agree. I think self-forgiveness is the most important aspect of forgiveness. Without it, others extending their forgiveness is worthless. But when both can happen at the same time... then we can heal. We have no other choice :) Thanks for watching.

[@thairk]

Great dialogue, thank you Ilan and thank you Jay!

[@kathleentrinity7367]

Thank you for your series. It's so frustrating to hear over and over that Palestinians "must pay the price" for their support of Hamas.

[@AgnieszkaNishka]

Two state solution is enshrined in the international law, so there is framework for it already enacted by the UN, and adopted by an Arab League in 2002, and also, accepted by the Palestinians, including Hamas.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

I know. I think this will be a hurdle to get over and many people won't understand why it is not a genuine or just framework... they will likely accuse the palestinians of "not being serious about peace" when they are not a fan... but I hope we'll get through that and to the obvious path :)

[@markbahouth2713]

@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost it wont work Jay . the Zionists have turned the West Bank into Swiss Cheese . in my opinion only a One State solution is viable and wether its a two state solution or one state solution it's going to be incredibly difficult. 🤔

[@timsengragan6678]

Thank you for this video and especially the essay at the end. I've had so much anger towards the people who support Israel still and just a simple reminder that we all need forgiveness really helped me to be ready to forgive them when they are ready to ask to be forgiven.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Beautiful. Thank you for watching.

[@dLehman]

Not only is he a respected scholar and historian, Pappe is a beacon of hope, the triumph of humanity over barbarity. He is a humanitarian above all and someone who has a respect for the facts. Thank you for bringing prof Pappe on your show. He is a cut above the rest. Sam Harris has proven to be a disgrace.. totally dishonest. He should stick to meditation (although I can think of dozens better than him on this).

[@victormeidan1062]

I Pappe is a beacon of false hope and demented Leftist nonsense.

[@lulusp1023]

Iam currently reading Mr. PAPPE 'S book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine ....excellent book....thanks for it.

[@user-ss9ft9ly7h]

What a human. Huge respect to Mr. Pappe. How come most of the sober and compassionate voices are ex-commies though. I’m a muslim American coming from a post-Soviet country that suffered and continues to suffer from leaders that inherited their offices after the collapse. Most of the “-stans” regular citizens found refuge in religion. Against Leninist, socialist autocracy that is. And we seek social justice, equality, transparency and right to freedom. I sincerely appreciate professor Noam Chomsky, and love his protege professor Norman Finkelstein. Really glad to have heard mr. Pappe now.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Interesting question on the communist thing... I think I may have some ideas on why that is the case but it will have to wait for a much longer piece of analysis that I am working on in long form (generally it likely relates to an anti-capitalist and anti-consequentialist moral framework which has to do with a different attitude towards history).

[@baraksteady1341]

To a young idealist, Marx looks good on paper.

[@CedBousquet]

Even though your initiative is needed to put things into prospective, there is the disturbing fact that after 6 videos about Palestine we have yet to hear a single palestinian talk about their land, are they so hard to find ?

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

That's true. I kind of jumped into this topic to put this collection together quickly. I am not an activist but a philosopher so I sort of gravitated towards the known journalists and thinkers on the subject. I definitely encourage people to seek Palestinian voices if that is what they are looking for. My best role in the conversation is intellectual and philosophical analysis from afar... and frankly I am attempting to talk to jews and zionists and zionist supporters who might be struggling with their positions at the moment. And so these voices may prove effective for that audience. :)

[@CedBousquet]

@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost and your work is highly appreciated, I'm just pointing that fact because we hear a lot about jewish people denouncing the what the zionist project has become but I think it's equally important to give a voice to the Palestinians so viewers can appreciate that they have the same aspirations as the first settlers, a peaceful life in their ancestral land.

[@johnbanach3875]

DEMOCRACY NOW has done an amazing job covering Gaza.

[@mischevious]

But it’s Grayzone, Al Jazeera, Electronic Intifada, Middle East Eye.. sending their inside reporting to the ICJ for evidence.

[@AgnieszkaNishka]

Trump and Biden may both support Israel, but how they support it differs, i.e Trump is a populist and thus he would not just brush off being called Genocide Don, plus he is not so beholden to interest groups. Thus, even for his own ego, it's unlikely he would be as indifferent as Biden.

[@factual6591]

Trump is a business man who knows how to generate wealth for all

[@markbahouth2713]

i wish i was as eloquent as Jay Shapiro and IIan Pappe . 👍🗣️

[@Hesham_MK]

I doubt Netanyahu would dare insult him like he does to Biden

[@sylviabendavid]

Does the current situation in the Middle East testifies as to an improved governance in Israel? Had it not been based on already solid foundations since 1948? Uniqueness of every individual in Israel is marching towards amalgamating into strengthening the State!?!?! A healthy state is one that reverberates a multitude of opinions and leanings. Perhaps it had to take all this time to at least diminish the antagonism towards the Palestinians and bring to the fore their humanism...

[@Cecil354]

Nobody is taking a strong stance against the Israeli apartheid state and the ethnic cleansing of Gaza so far, neither the US, nor Europe, nor the Arab world, so it it is doubtful whether this is going to happen in the near future. Israel is an ally to the West and the last 6 months of war on Gaza have shown that the Occident is going to great lengths when it comes to supporting this country militarily and morally, or at least by tolerating the evil it does to the Palestinians.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

I agree it is frustrating. I am not sure what to predict moving forward. I fear we have at least 5 years to go before the type of "good collapse" that we are hoping for. But like Ilan said, the cracks form slowly, but the collapse happens quickly. I'm not sure how long it can hold.

[@Cecil354]

@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost well, we cannot predict the future, we can just hope for better one. As Rashid Khalidi puts it, neither South Africa, nor Ireland can serve as real way leading examples, because historically they don’t have the same strategic importance as Palestine. There is long interview with him on YT, can only recommend!

[@suzannaquigley7305]

@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost Thank you for this very important talk that I discovered today and listened to. Now it is the 13 th of May so it has happened alot during the last month in Gaza. Rafah is under attack and the north in Jabalia refugee camp by IDF around 350 000 Gazans are forced to flee from Rafah to " safe zones" that are not fit for human survival. There is just nothing there provided for the displaced and homeless over 2 million people and no fuel or aid comming in to the people of Gaza now. This genocide has now shifted last week to a comming genocide on a industrial scale. Not as much in people getting blown up to pieces as to people dying of malnutriton, dehydration and treatable infections that are not treated. All healtcare has by now more or less totally collapsed. What I am trying to say is that I do think that the collaps of the zionist regime and state athorities in Israel is nearer then we might think. When the unforgivable happens in such a fast pace as now. Masses of the most vournerable will die. The small children, the elderly, the pregnant women and the allready very weak and sick people. The Gaza people are a very strong people but they have now been living under the most inhumane conditions for over 7 months. I do not think that we in the west or convinced zionists have time to process a internal dilemma. The unforgivable industrial genocide has started for 2 million trapped people in Israels created concentration camp. So all theese forgiveness to one self and others is something that just has to wait. The city is on fire and this is a wake up call for most people that are strong Israel supporters and zionists. Or will 500 000 people in Gaza have to be sacrificed first it would go very fast if not stoped within a 2 weeks period. The ripple effect of the unforgivable will be seen for months after a ceasefire and a stop to a full on holocaust. Do any of us have time to process anything now? I believe we do not.

[@mns8732]

At approx 19 min the interviewer cuts off the guest just as an important point was going to be made. Thats why inexperienced people shouldn't do this kind of reporting.

[@kimberlygreenland3785]

Video sometimes lies, too. Look closer at the George Floyd incident.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

It actually doesn't matter to the point that I am making though... the perception of it and the "self identified oppression of people" is what explains the solidarity on the walls in Palestine. But your comment does point to the first question on how one might be able to adjudicate history etc...

[@LACYJEN1999]

I was born pro Palestine. My parents were outraged with the expulsion of Palestinians. They were equally traumatized by the holocaust of Jewish people in Europe. My parents educated me about the workd, starting with local history and expanding outwards.

[@SiBarghelame]

Israel has over played his hand. I was a supporter of Israel, until I found out what they are made of. 😮

[@ekesandras1481]

In 1950 the Gaza strip had 250 000 inhabitants, 1985 it were 530 000, in 2000 it were 1 130 000, now there are more than 2 million Palestinians living there. This is the first "genocide" in human history, where the population rapidly grows and not decreases.

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Israel is a signatory of this convention www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-1&chapter=4 Israel signed on August 17th 1949. Any questions?

[@evamurray2564]

Be brave and speak to Benny Morris who is the most prominent expert on this topic. Most of these others deliberately misquote his work.

[@dan45321]

Benny Morris is a psychopath. Jay, speak to Noam Chomsky an intelligent and knowledgeable authority on Israel Palestine

[@amrabdallah368]

George Floyd was killed by IDF trainees, so there’s that connection you didn’t get.

[@LalaSalama-pj3jh]

You are NOT giving us any NEW information!!! Stop regurgitating the proverbial facts...ENOUGH! Come up with concrete RESOLUTIONS..then you'll be worth listening to. Aaaaaaaaah!

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

I hear your frustration... not sure how to respond other than to try to be patient and courageous. I hope I offered some new mentalities in my final essay.

[@ZenatiOmar]

Illan Pappe ❤ Great Human🎉 thank you Jay Shapiro is Ben Shapiro family of you cousin or brother

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

No he's not.... Thankfully 😉

[@ZenatiOmar]

@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost thank God because he lie more than a Demon 🤣

[@anastylishrock481]

Btw, celebrity chef and founder of World Central Kitchen, Jose Andres, is DC royalty. There's no DC politician that hasn't eaten (or set up "dining" camp even) in his DC restaurant/s... Just a thought... One of their "own" was hurt... It's sad to think that it took THAT for the tiniest shift... of rhetoric...

[@JayShapiroDilemmaHost]

Yes exactly... they really f'ed up... the hubris of the zionists has been even more extreme than many of us had predicted as Ilan and I discussed.

[@contact594]

@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost We must also see that Israel is there and any talk of driving the Jews into the Mediterranean, as we have heard over the last few weeks or the last several years, is not only unrealistic talk but it is suicidal talk for the whole world Martin Luther King

[@TonnyBartels]

Ja y Shapiro Talks too much!!@! I want to hear Ilan Pappe,not him!!! He isn't interessant!!! He needs to long timeto come to the point!!!Awfull!!! !

[@sakha2349]

This is his podcast - I think he can present it as he likes. I heard a very informative interview with Pappe and an interesting essay at the end. You can always watch on double speed😊

[@Anubis-hm7ro]

Thank you