Dirty Minions: an alternative to the Troop rules (Pathfinder 2e Rule Reminder

Providing an alternative to the official Troop rules in Pathfinder 2nd edition. The "Dirty Minion" rules were created by the Order 66 podcast (episode 158: getpodcast.com....
For more information see:
Troops: • Pathfinder (2e): Troops
9 Items to Consider When Designing Encounters: • Pathfinder (2e): 9 Ite...
This video is sponsored by Roll For Combat, a Paizo official actual play podcast! Check out all their great content here: rollforcombat....
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[@HowItsPlayed]

For more information see: Troops: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoHTg52eq7yipdU 9 Items to Consider When Designing Encounters: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXe9naptoJWkfLM This video is sponsored by Roll For Combat, a Paizo official actual play podcast! Check out all their great content here: rollforcombat.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Want to help support the channel? Get your name listed at the end of my videos by joining my Patreon : ▶️ www.patreon.com/HowItsPlayed/ Thank me with a cup of coffee! ▶️ ko-fi.com/HowItsPlayed

[@DonkeyDoormatDrive]

I LOVE this rule, I’ve been using it for… 7 years now in my games. I do have a few alterations I use. I give each Squad of minions their own initiative place for ease of use when there are a lot on the board. I roll 1d4+4 for how many are in each squad to add some variance. They only get a partial turn (in PF2e this is 2 actions) and they only get a full turn of a commanding unit spends an action ordering them. And I give them 2HP instead of 1, if they take splash damage or would take 1/2 damage from an effect, they take 1 damage. I usually mark them with a Red token from a board game or change their color filter on foundry. I give their commander unit, if they have one, two unique actions. 1: spend a small action (1 action in PF2e) and an entire single squad gets a full turn on their next turn. Sometimes I also give it as a reaction. 2: they can spend a partial turn (2 actions in PF2e) to invigorate up to 2 squads, each squad revives 1 fallen member and all damaged members reset to 2HP. If players down an enemy with a critical failed save, a critical hit attack, or perform a killing blow I lower the squads maximum number by 1 (this rewards the players luck, which counters another complaint I hear from critical hit fishers)… this is literally just a mix of 4e minions and Officer from Stargate SG1 (powered by 3.5e).

[@VengenceWolf]

I've used the minion rules for years, with a tweak now in PF2e. Minions have 5hp/teir. (Up to CR 4=5hp, 5-9 =10hp, ect) This solves two problems. Splash still does "something", not robbing those who use it. And it let's "bad hits" (rolling poor damage) have the chance that they need to swing again. So far, it's worked like a dream.

[@TheRealOgreBane]

I loved the minion rules in 4e. I am definitely going to test these rules. I might try average damage, and max damage on crits to minimize time. Thanks!

[@kylone1]

This was an actual rule of 4th Ed D&D for encounter building.

[@Uriel84Rankor]

Hi. I love the minion rule I played it some times. You can improve it by one solution, if you really want to have your players completely overwhelmed and surrounded with 18 minions but you don't want to make waves of attacks: You simply make only 1 roll for the attack action for all the minions at the same time, but the attack and damage rolls have a +1 bonus per minion after the first one ("supernumerary", I not sure of the translation in English) attacking the player at the same time. So for example if you have 5 minions attacking one player, the attack is rolled with a +4 on the dice and the damages will be upped by 4. The main issue with this method is if the roll is a failure, it's a failure for all minions. The solution I took is to ignore multiple attack penalty for minions if I play that way. Result: players are really fighting a crazy amount of creatures and the battle is still fast, fun and narrative. N.B. I forgot to specify that I also make all minions of the same type act at the same round Another solution for minions is to copy the stawars by Edge solution, a mix with what I proposed just on the first part of this message. It fits for a low amount of creatures of the same type at low level in front of mid level players. You add all the HP of the minions you have and make it count as one creature for its actions, except each minion is independent and can surround players. It's almost like the troop solution of paizo. The main difference is : You don't consider the whole minions by a square occupation, you just kill one minion everytime a player makes enough damages to kill one of them. If it's a critical hit (or critical save failure) it kills automatically a minion. For example, you have 5 minions at 10HP. So you have a creature with 50HP. You make them a unique creature acting at the same turn, each minion moving independently on this round. When they attack, you use the same rule I talked about before. Each time a player make 10 damages he kills a creature. So if he does 20 damages, he kills 2 of them etc... Still fun to play, makes these minions more like real enemies not that easy to kill but a bit slower than the 1HP solution.

[@BasementMinions]

Definitely a great inclusion to making swarms feel more interesting. I think personally I would just have every creature only get one action as a minion. That way I can still feel like a swarm is moving towards you but it's not such a headache for me as a GM.

[@jamieadams2589]

It would also prevent you from stacking up massive damage agaisnt players, since this effectively multiplies the enemies damage by 6 which could be quite the headache for balance

[@varenoftatooine2393]

I actually wonder if you could run a big massive combat like this using the victory point system, not every fight needs to be tactical, some just need to be big narrative moments where characters get to feel like badasses without it needing to devolve into rolling 1000 dice.

[@jonispatented]

This is absolutely the way I'd run it. A GMG subsystem would absolutely be great for this.

[@tbgold07]

I have been using a rule that is almost exactly this, but I will admit at low levels I also give them the weak template. Especially will necromancies and undead hordes.

[@JonWaterfall]

Sounds interesting, though it sounds a bit cheap for the alchemist who would be extra effective against a traditional troop.

[@donnkasten4111]

It sounds like a great way to highlight the alchemist and let them be the hero of a combat.

[@nicholasromero238]

As an alchemist player, I'd be kind of annoyed if my splash didn't do anything. One of the big ways I keep up with damage with the martials in my group is through that AoE chip damage to multiple foes. Even if it was something like the minions lose turns when in the splash instead of dying, or the splash still kills the target even on a miss, it'd be fine by me. That said, I do also get a lot of milage getting mostly garanteed damage against bosses even with MAP; the fact that the bbeg is almost certainly taking ~12/14 damage even on a peticularly disasterous turn is neat way to add time pressure onto a boss that they wouldn't normally have

[@jamieadams2589]

Yeah. Maybe give them a little mroe hp and let splash damage effect them

[@ShoehorndelBosque]

​@@nicholasromero238I like a side rule that grants chip damage a stacking stun.

[@StefanRadermacher]

Sounds like an interesting idea. I might try that some day.

[@TigerGeorgeUK]

Really interesting to hear your GM ing ideas man, thanks for sharing that

[@camerontaylor612]

I'm running Fist of the Ruby Phoenix for 2e and my players are coming up on a written massive surprise attack (trying to avoid spoilers best I can) I'm gonna try this as it feels like it's a good narrative fit, I'll comment this again after to say how it went

[@r2roberts]

I really like this. I think I'm going to give it a try soon.

[@solomani-42]

Mooks from 4e. I used them in 5e and no reason they wouldn’t work in pf2e. Another great 4e innovation.

[@Pathsfound]

I would recommend hit points equal to the enemies level. This keeps it scaling well for the type of threat and prevents things like really mundane AOEs or some environmental effects (trip crit fail, weather effects, etc) from downing bigger minions. There are situations where I think splash damage should kill minions (a hoard of Mitflits, etc) and there are situations where minions should survive them (a battalion of Shadow Giants)

[@raptorjesues1445]

that sounds as an absolute nightmare to play, 18 initiatives, up to 18x3 rolls to hit, 18 movements, 18+ saves... absolutely not

[@HenshinFanatic]

Nah, just roll initiative for minions of the same type once with them all acting interchangably on the same count (after PC if tied).

[@RCCraigoOnline]

I might try this. I think I’d give the dirty minions only 1 action each though, but all their abilities take that one action. So no running up and attacking twice, or casting a spell and running away, but they can still do whatever they could normally just one thing per turn.

[@Pit_Wizard]

I've always loved the 4e minion rules. I think it was 4e's single best innovation, and I've always found it weird that 5e abandoned it. My only question is: why "dirty" minions? Is it to differentiate between this and Pathfinder 2e's Minion tag?

[@HowItsPlayed]

No, I was just using "Dirty" as in "Unofficial". Or "Jury-rigged".

[@hectorvivis3651]

Now you've layed the rules for troops and an alternative, I think a reminder for swarms could be a good thing for some inexperienced GM. I recently witnessed 2 times where a GM was unsure if a swarm could use its damaging abilities multiple times for example.

[@Unikatze]

Interesting. I can think of many cinematic scenarios where this would work really well.

[@Jipposan]

I have thought something similar, but why to invent the wheel again. I am going to give this a go at some point :)

[@devcrom3]

Is there a quick and easy way to reform a troop on Foundry?

[@grantholomeu3725]

I like the idea. My biggest problem with it would be things like fireball, that could reliably kill 60% of an 8x8 square, or if it was fully populated, nearly 40 dirty minions. I guess it is kind of a time for the casters to feel like badasses, and it takes spell slots.

[@jamieadams2589]

That is sort of the point of aoe spells and and by extension casters. If the big one hit wonder sniper can take down a boss in three hits, the wizard should get their time for pest control

[@grantholomeu3725]

@@jamieadams2589 I agree, but aoe dmg already does extra to swarms. I also think managing so many enemies would be a pain.

[@GGSigmar]

I love both 4e and minions. Great rule :)

[@murraytowle2123]

6 seems like a good general number, but would you change it based on party size? like 9 for 6 players, or 2 for a solo game?

[@Ghilteras]

This does not solve the overwhelming number of dices you need to roll when you deal with minions. Troops are an inelegant solution to solve this because it requires GMs to reskin them. What we really need is something akin to the 5e riot rules where you can just spawn a bunch of low level monster and statistically calculate how much of them would hit you and just abstract the whole thing and average the hits and damage until the players weed them out in a way that you can return to normal rules (which is when the avg dmg and hit becomes negligible)

[@nyx234]

Just last night i had this pop up in my game, someone asked why don't i get an attack when they form up and move past me. Different thought, it's interesting that they are reflex saves when they want to do their attack which makes me think rogues are really good at fighting against groups of enemies like this.

[@B-019]

There are existing abilities one can point to which negate a reaction from movement, like Shielded Stride. But really, you can just say it's because they aren't vulnerable during their movement -- they're moving in concert with their allies, protecting each other during maneuvers so there's no opening to take advantage of. Sounds entirely reasonable to me. Agreed on the second point. Swashbucklers are in the same boat, and I think that's very fitting for their whole class vibe.

[@BrunoReis18]

I imagine this could be very deadly for a low level party without AOE. Has this worked in such scenarios? Seems really cool for higher levels tho.

[@HowItsPlayed]

Not super low, but I used it with a group that was like 3-4 and it went well.

[@stephenjennings6594]

I have a question about heightened spells. What's the difference between heightened +3 and heightened 4th and 7th. Example spells: Resist Energy and Elemental Absorption.

[@kevinbarnard355]

You should probably reread the Heightened rules for more clarity. However, Heightened +x level means that. For each iteration of X the benefit is applied. Heightened 4th, etc means only in that level spell slot.

[@MattS-fo7qs]

"Can only suffer damage from a successful attack or failed saves." - So does that mean that if my wizard throws a fireball at a group of minions and half of them succeed, they take 'no damage', even though a success on a fireball still means you are taking some damage? I guess I'm asking how would that work with basic saving throws where even a success deals damage?

[@PolskiSuzeren]

that would be correct. The issue with this variant and basic saves is that a single fireball would wipe out the vast majority of a group of dirty minions, if not all of them, if they took damage on a successful save. You can naturally narrate it as they're being hit and take damage, but mechanically they only fall if they fail.

[@63worldseries]

SW Saga!!!

[@blackfox2973]

What a dirty video! *tosses log on the fires of sacrifice*

[@aloseman]

For the algorithm!

[@donnkasten4111]

I think this sounds like a great tool in the gm tool belt. A great way to highlight the alchemist bombs, and make the party develop different tactics.

[@kevinbarnard355]

It removes the effectiveness of an Alchemist bomb. Dirty Minions are immune to splash damage.