disaster?

[@thedestroyasystem]

I received this text from a date who watched this movie: “while lady gaga and the joker were singing i was so bored because this movie was so bad and then i thought about you and our last date and i kinda miss being in your arms and everything and then i was really happy but joker kept singing and i was upset again” I rate it 11/10 for my love life

[@TrickoTreatz]

You've got a keeper there! 😁

[@meciocio]

cringe

[@DoctorXander]

​@@meciocioIf you go through life calling everything cringe you'll probably die alone

[@meciocio]

@@DoctorXander not everything just that comment

[@aussieseal9979]

@@meciociocringe? *good*

[@rogue]

I like that Nadia watches these controversial movies blind and comes out with these really interesting/unexpected takes 😄

[@jacobp8294]

Literally my favorite thing about this channel. I wish we had way more reviewers like her who don't come in with preconceptions about what something is supposed to be.

[@MuchoLucho]

Literally what everyone should do. Don't let the public perception of a movie affect the way you see it.

[@batorsagandszerelem4474]

This is why I avoid trailers and reddit discourse about any new movie. It's so fun to go in blind.

[@fieuline2536]

That 7/10 is the first positive thing I’ve heard about this movie.

[@deangagatr3886]

The tide will change soon

[@bigbeanburrito7459]

It’s actually a really good movie. Not as good as the first one imo (was pretty slow at times) but don’t listen to the chuds. A lot of people are just mad because it’s not about a Joker who is the clown prince of crime. Even the first movie wasn’t about that. Very beautiful writing and gripping social commentary.

[@LuisSierra42]

@@deangagatr3886 You sounded like the joker there

[@boat1280]

Being totally tuned out of the internet zeitgeist enables you to actually form unique opinions I don’t agree with her but it’s valid :)

[@asura7915]

@@bigbeanburrito7459 i mean its not just them disliking, lots of critics and "general audience" diliked also

[@ggadams639]

I trust a man with a Goku shirt

[@Stormsign]

Cancer doctors must be rich af in Gotham. Everyone smoking 24/7 even in maximum security prison.

[@LuisSierra42]

They are rich in real life as well

[@DundG]

It's the 80s. Everyone smoked back then. Before 2000 people even smoked in airplanes....

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

@@LuisSierra42 Yeah, but not because they work on commission like OP seems to think.

[@SgtBotBot]

For me, the most coherent part of this film was Harley Quinn, she was a poke at the joker fanboys who see him as a hero/idol. She's from a rich family, committed herself to Arkham, lied to him and encouraged the worst parts of him for her own masturbatory experience. She didn't care about who he was as a person but purely the aesthetics of him, she sings to him at the end 'it was an entertainment'. As soon as he showed his humanity or who he was at all she discards him. She is a person of privilege who likes the joker because it's edgy without understanding anything about him. I agree that the film was bloated and the musical numbers didn't serve the plot or the characters a lot of the time, despite being very pretty. The most disappointing part of the film to me was it's nihilism. The first film does a good job of showing how fucked up society can be and making you sympathise with someone who's only possible reaction is insanity and refusing to play the game anymore. Then in the sequel we just see him continually abused, disempowered and ultimately killed; in that same society that hasn't learned any lessons and is just as shitty. It felt like the film just shrugged and said, life's a bitch and then you die. People who want change or revolution, however misguided are just ignored and shown to be misguided. The first film felt like a response to the idea that Batman is a trust fund kid who breaks the bones of poor people stealing to feed their family and the second film basically said 'he is right to do so'. That's my 2 pence on it; enjoyable review as ever. Keep it up.

[@Mx.Monkey]

🙌🏽🙌🏽

[@tobysmith2081]

Okay, but that’s not who the majority of the people who relate to joker are. The people who see joker as an idol are downtrodden incels who needs a reason to smile in a society that tells them to not. Making the quintessential joker fan be a rich and privileged girl misses who actually relates to joker

[@wingflanagan]

@@SgtBotBot I can’t say I agree with your comment, but I thoroughly respect the fact that you seem to have thought it through. Well done. The thing I find very unsettling, is the people who say that the movie hates its audience. And by extension, it hates them. If you think the movie hates you, what does that say about your self image? Are you subconsciously acknowledging that you’re a shallow fanboy who loves the Joker but doesn’t care about human beings who are deeply damaged and in need of help?

[@FALL-LAFF-7477]

I think after watching first movie, I think I shouldn't watch Joker Foile a Deux for some reason. I mean, I personally get it that the sequel wanted to kill the thought that Joker was right... But, the fact I already had this feeling after watching the first one, makes me agreed to your verdict on that one. I think Todd was intentional to make it bad, so people shouldn't idolized more on that Joker... and I get it.

[@cooliostarstache5474]

That's what hurts the most. There's some really good ideas and themes in the movie but it seems to be wrapped in a not very enjoyable package

[@chlumbis]

if sideburns were a human it would be jake. He doesn't have sideburns, but he gives me sideburns vibes

[@jacobp8294]

It's the mustache

[@GolumTR]

Mr burns would never let him on a softball team

[@Kaltagstar96]

Having just gotten back from seeing it, I didn't think it was as bad as some people are saying, I wouldn't have had as many musical numbers (I think a few of them were quite good, but they could've dialed it back a bit). To no-one's surprise, Joaquin Phoenix was absolutely phenomenal as Joker but the scene that got me the most was when Gary took the stand and had to face Arthur on the trial and I just felt so damn bad for this minor character.

[@DarkZide8]

I loved that scene too.

[@leighsherval1023]

It wasnt a "love story" it was more abuse. Thats all Arthur gets. He isnt a normal brained person, he doesnt see it. The sequel goes the only direction a sequel to the 2019 film would go. What else could happen? He fights Batman? Come on.

[@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786]

Considering the apparent lack of media literacy in the first movie's audience, yeah, that was an expectation. I've genuinely seen people saying the movie should have been about Joker's rise to power as a criminal mastermind. It's like they haven't seen the first one.

[@elenaphisher244]

She gets it.

[@Khayman_0]

😂😂😂

[@derpyfishboy8515]

i wish they had some original music in the movie. and i wish they played more into the musical elements. like i wish there was more choreography in the musical sequences. sometimes it just felt like they were doing karaoke. the performances and music are good but, like jake said, the story didn't really go anywhere and it seemed like that was the point but it makes you wonder why even make it if the point is for nothing to happen.

[@ataridc]

It annoys me that so much hate for this movie is connected to it simply being a musical, not the music itself. I thought Netflix Matilda was the best movie I watched in 2023 and all of the music was great and enhanced the film and story.

[@thehousecat93]

I think Todd Phillips being so strict about keeping the visual language consistent strangled whatever interest the musical aspect could have created. Like, why are you keeping this 70s New Hollywood visual aesthetic (which I like and think works for the reality of these Joker movies) while riffing on classic Hollywood musicals? It’s just dull. If you’re going to break the reality of your movie, commit. Full technicolor, full-on sets and old school costume design, put your camera on a tripod/crane/dolly, get choreography, fill the screen with extras, be OLD SCHOOL about it all. It’s all just so half-measure. Like Todd didn’t want to actually make a musical.

[@TheMostPotatoPodcast]

Joker: 2 Folie 2 Deux

[@MagicMan608]

Megalopolis Son or Joker Deux Daughter?

[@chases887]

that’s the best shit i’ve read all day

[@AnimatedCriticStudios]

Abortion

[@Thecriticalasshole]

I choose death.

[@aesop1451]

Thor: Love and Thunder son or Deadpool and Wolverine daughter? Aquaman The Lost Kingdom nephew or Shazam! Fury of the Gods niece? The Marvels grandson or Wonder Woman 1984 granddaughter?

[@donovanwiebe2495]

The Joker but he's really crazy: "I'm the Jonkler baybey"

[@fieuline2536]

SO -having finished the review, I have not seen Folie à Deux, but I disagree with “music is story enhancement, not story advancement” vehemently. I love stage and film musicals, and in a good musical, the musical numbers are the main narrative vehicle. That doesn’t mean every song had to advance plot, but every musical number should do SOMETHING to transform the narrative. It should reveal information about a character, show internal growth, develop a relationship. In the same way that scripts shouldn’t have wasted words and shots shouldn’t have wasted space, musicals shouldn’t have wasted songs. If you can remove a musical number from a musical without damaging the narrative integrity of the overall story, then that musical number probably shouldn’t be in the movie. Musicals that only have removeable music - music more as ornament than as vehicle - tend to be bad.

[@bigbeanburrito7459]

“Haven’t seen the movie. But I know the musical is bad. Source: Trust me bro.”

[@fieuline2536]

@@bigbeanburrito7459 I didn't say anything about Folie à Deux, actually. It may well be good for all I know. I was just talking about musicals in general.

[@Traveler_202]

@@bigbeanburrito7459I have seen the musical, it was awful, possibly the worst musical of all time, ever made.

[@thehousecat93]

This is one of the reasons why Pasek and Paul (Greatest Showman, Dear Evan Hansen) make bad musicals. Their songs offer no change to the characters or story. Everything is just so static, like they write the story/book and the music separately and then just plug things in as needed.

[@Tyc9909]

My point of entry to the Joker character in the sequel was that he's always just trying to entertain the biggest crowd, instead of the people that actually cared about him like the lawyer and puddles. However, the internal conflict within him is questioning why people are entertained in the first place and his impact to the world, which ultimately makes him hang up the mantle. I do agree that the musical elements should have been more emotionally pointed, but I still found them very enjoyable, cuz the studio-booth, over-produced, perfect vocals in actual musicals always take me out of those movies. Also, the courtroom drama could have been more conflicting for sure, with press perspectives, like in anatomy of a fall. However, by combining these elements, I still think it's a very interesting, unique and enjoyable movie, whereas, I didn't feel like the first Joker was all that interesting.

[@JamesVideoCollection]

"I didn't feel like the first Joker was all that interesting." Joker was extremely interesting - hence why it earned over 1B dollars worldwide, whereas Folie a Deux is crashing hard at the box office and in reviews.

[@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786]

@@JamesVideoCollectionTransformers Dark of the Moon made 1.1 billion dollars. Box office revenue is meaningless for gleaning anything other than how many people have seen it.

[@dcmastermindfirst9418]

These movies are Elseworlds movies. They are supposed to be alternative and realistic retellings of classic stories about DC characters. The entire point of them is to be gritty and realistic. Not comicy and fantastical. I'm not sure why everyone has auch a difficult time working that part out.

[@ExpertContrarian]

Who has a hard time working “that” out?

[@anitamihholap5926]

​@@ExpertContrarianthose who were expecting Arthur Fleck to fight Batman in the sequel, I guess.

[@ExpertContrarian]

@@anitamihholap5926 like who

[@DiegoXRA]

​@@anitamihholap5926most people didn't expected him to fight the Batman. People wanted him to be the Joker that's it. That's all people wanted.

[@wesreleases6346]

“Elseworlds” is a meaningless label. This movie isn’t meant to be part of any DC franchise. Todd Phillips specifically and personally distanced himself from DC Studios during production. You’re right that it’s not meant to be like the comic books, because for everyone involved, it was not meant to have anything to do with any comic book story.

[@PhinnOz]

joker 2 was a much more fun movie than the first for me, was a genuinely psychedelic experience for me akin to a Fear & Loathing In Las Vegas. loved the music and unreliable narrator. On a meta level, the whole movie felt like the creators were telling a story about how they didnt want to make a sequel but they had no choice and i kinda like that as a big middle finger to the weirdo joker fans and the studio execs Gaga slayed

[@ExpertContrarian]

Found the NPC

[@cornnflaek6234]

@@ExpertContrarianImagine someone having different ideas to you

[@ExpertContrarian]

@@cornnflaek6234 tell that to OP who has a problem with people liking the first movie 🤣

[@cornnflaek6234]

@@ExpertContrarian He said he found the second film more fun, not that he has a problem with people liking the first one.

[@ExpertContrarian]

@@cornnflaek6234 try actually reading the comment

[@PersistentMeow]

I feel like it is my duty to say no likes in 18 seconds and then make a bro fell off comment or say some i’m first thing, but no. I shall not.

[@PersistentMeow]

Complete and thorough review that goes further than the obvious. I appreciated this very much.

[@jonathanwalls8106]

You did both and yet neither. Schrodingers KZbin comment.

[@pinedamartin5767]

No. The movie shows that the Joker only exist in the mind of the fans. Arthur Fleck is just a sad mental case abandoned by society that create the ultimate character. At the end of the movie we see that Joker is indeed a concept, and despite the effort of the system to tame and punish an individual that they created, the Joker is already on the loose. It lives it the minds of its fans.

[@FinnA07]

This is a really good interpretation

[@DarkZide8]

I guess that is a good theme and message - but it's still the Joker - why does a movie about a DC Character everyone likes and everyone wants to see go up against Batman have to be an arthouse project?

[@_sushishi_]

​@@DarkZide8Why not? If its not for you its not for you.

[@francolarich]

I also felt this was a redemption arc for Arthur Fleck, where he ends up choosing to reject the Joker persona, especially after he realizes the harm it brings to himself and others (when his cell mate is killed for singing) and after hearing Puddles' deposition, even against what his love interest wants...

[@buriedghostlady]

​@@DarkZide8 At this point it's bigger than a DC character- i see this as a transition point between a specific character, and an idea/symbol. Kinda like how Frankenstein's monster has been done in so many ways, and inspired so many things that the specific character is just a small part of how we perceive "Frankenstein's monster". Or for something more on the idea side of things, only fervorous Christians expect a Jesus portrayal to begin and end with the traditional take on his story.

[@dojo999]

She's not wrong. Those were all good points

[@B_D-g3q]

He didn’t do the joker beatbox. 0/10

[@SOBEKCrocodileGod]

I’m just sad that the movie has no songs from Fall Out Boy’s 2008 album “Folie A Deux” (probably their best album)

[@ZachBobBob]

I agree it is their best album

[@GhoulCityOffline]

The way people are talking about it I was expecting a disaster on the scale of rise of skywalker but it was kinda just a bit mid. It should have been a musical with all original music

[@ZodiacBoi42]

It’s sad how many people are hating on this just because the first movie became a meme, I’m personally very excited to see this movie. And I think the controversy is mostly people who haven’t seen it and don’t want to look like incels for liking it lol

[@Ason19]

You guys have a chill energy, you'll be great parents!

[@dontmindme352]

Personally, I loved this movie. I know that isn't a popular opinion but it's mine none the less. I've been super frustrated because I don't fully understand the hate I see literally EVERYWHERE. Although I don't agree with his opinion here, I feel he has actually formulated an opinion and properly expresses that. Everyone else I've seen seems to have a copy paste rant with little to no variation. This video is what film discussion should be. Not mob mentality lynching of a film. We don't need to agree, but I would like to see a little effort from other reviewers. I think I agree with the 7/10

[@jaybonny1954]

Fully agree. I think it’s because these movies are especially fucked and confronting, in very real and painful ways that fans dont expect or appreciate. I’m stunned by this film it’s amazing but I admit it will be hard to recommend

[@dontmindme352]

@@jaybonny1954 that is fair, I like things that make me think so confrontation is often welcome

[@ExpertContrarian]

It’s pretty easy to understand. What part are you struggling with?

[@tommylakindasorta3068]

This movie is like entrapment. It says, "Hey buddy, ya want some Joker?" And when you say yes and watch it, it says, "You were the asshole for wanting some Joker."

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

the entire first film shows arthur thinking he is loved because of his acts, he finally feels "seen" once he goes on a murderous rampage. In the second one, we see this turned up. He is basically a celebrity, put on trial everyone is rooting for the joker. He loves this, he puts on the makeup and starts acting like hes doing another "joker" bit, where at the end he'll go on a murderous rampage and kill everyone or something. When Puddles goes to the stand, you can see him slip out of the joker persona and become arthur, in the end arthur just wanted to feel loved and he realised that he was throwing that all away for evil, "you were the only one who was ever nice to me" puddles states, and you can clearly see arthur distraught about that. When he talks to the jury it all falls apart, Arthur never WANTED to be a murderer, he never wanted to be a symbol, so he breaks down and his persona falls apart. Meanwhile, the courtroom audience AND the movie audience LITERALLY "walk out" because we are getting the real arthur and not the "crazy psychotic clown", we the audience want to see rampage and murder, but this is wrong, this is not good and this is not arthur, the audience and the society in the movie do not care about people like Arthur, they just want the image of the joker, a fake persona. In the end, we are the problem, "if it was me dying on the street you would all walk over me" is true because yes, if arthur was lying on the street, none of these "joker fanatics" would care, they only want the joker. This is also expressed in how Lee acts towards him, he thinks she loves him for him but what she really loves in the idea of the joker. I mean the ending is perfect, it encapsulates the fanbase despising the fact that this mentally ill person WANTS to be better and doesnt want to be a crazy murderer because that it what is realistic, it makes perfect sense after the first movie. He is killed by a psychopath for not living up to the expectation of the joker, even though his joker movement and persona was all completely by accident. I think the movie was perfect at expressing issues with fame, notoriety, and how serial killers are percieved today and how our society tries to deam some evil acts as "righteous" when they really, really arent. I just thought it was really good meta commentary on the first film. People who say it "didn't have a point" are just silly.

[@2a.m.716]

For real, left the movie with the same thoughts

[@waterhose8467]

So what was the whole point of the movie then? Why even name the title The joker if Arthur isn't even the joker. You see they can deconstruct all they want but the problem was the fact that the first movie ended with Arthur completely personified The joker title with him. It was really until the second movie when they have them said that Arthur and joker are two completely split personalities. This movie seem more like a raccoon than it actually does seem like a sequel again it's completely fine if a first movie actually set this up but due to the ending this just seemed like a wreck on it seemed like something from a completely different movie. How on earth does Arthur went from a huge character arc and development back to how he was in the first few minutes of the first movie? Where is a whole lot too it's not just the direction of the character is also the pacing and is also the musical that people complain about which isn't really good, nor really seem to progress the story.

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

@@waterhose8467 it never said they are completely split personalities, thats a lie made my his lawyer to get him off. He literally admits in the film it was never real, it was just his persona (not an actual split personality) it was just a fantasy. The joker is an idea that was created by accident, he never “becomes the joker” in the first film (and saying that is not retconning) because the joker was always just an idea, an idea that a broken society leeched on to, but arthur was never cut out to be this symbol and powerful man, he was always just responding to his trauma with violence (again, this is not a retcon).

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

@@waterhose8467 The first movie really DID set it up. I literally rewatched the first right before the second and its clear that this direction is not a ret con at all.

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

his character arc in the first was him falling into the persona of the joker because thats how he felt loved/seen. but that was always just his fantasy.

[@ironyage]

I was in suspense throughout the movie, and I thought the plot was interesting enough to carry me through the song sequences, which were beautiful but, granted, added nothing-kind of like in The Graduate. What I got out of it in terms of stakes is that he was a desperate man clinging to hope of some kind of reversal-fame, romance, martyrdom, revenge, acquittal, redemption, even permanent delusion-and that hope was always crushed and shown to be vain. 7/10 seems like a fair score for either movie.

[@MrTomlette]

I always liked about the first movie that there was deliberate ambiguity (the mom's supposed delusion about Arthur being Wayne's son, what went through in his childhood, whether he killed Zazie Beetz character or not); juxtaposing that with the vulnerable scenes of his horrible stand up act, his despair and desire to connect felt very real, and opposite to Taxi Driver or King of Comedy, where I think that Scorsese tries to build intellectual distance from the main character. Oh well.

[@isaaco89]

I’m a musician constantly struggling with the views of ego and fame in artistry, and not trying not to fallback into this but do my own thing, and the point that Nadia is bringing here actually resonated a lot and I wish this was the movie we were shown.. somehow it doesn’t work in reality, but as a concept, I would have loved to see that duality of “abusive environment” and “creating a dream-like state to fulfill those voids” when in real life you cannot reach that potential because that’s not who you really are…

[@LINUXLINUXLINUXLINUXLINUXLINUX]

7/10 to the first and second Joker is a double whammy of a hot take, I love it.

[@smurfette_blues7922]

Genuinely i agree with both of you guys. I enjoyed it as much nadia did and i had the same takeaways as she did. I went in expecting a movie musical and it was indeed a pretty average movie musical. But although i respected the complexities it was trying to convey, i must admit it did not nail the execution. All the ingredients were there for something pretty good imo, but it was pulled off in such an unsure way.

[@Enjoyurble]

7:29 SPOILERS: I think it could have done a better job of it, but I think the bigger conflict isn't whether or not he's the Joker as much as whether or not he wants people to see him as the Joker or as Arthur. Attempting to reject being seen as Joker and losing everything for it was the right move, but they didn't plot it well enough to earn it. The ending itself was weird in that he was presumably getting the death penalty anyway, so they could have had someone attack him after he escaped and continued rejecting Joker or had him get rejected and turned himself back in and it would have made more sense.

[@MayorOfEarth79]

I think the issue is that Arthur Fleck really isn't a character; he's just this avatar for sadness and mental illness. Like Joker 1 starts with him crying while trying to hold a smile; he repeats it over and over and never feels happy. And Joker 2 follows through on that but more with the crushing realization. So like...what's the point at the end of the day?

[@julblarg]

I really have to commend Nadia for her insightfulness, and the sincere consideration she brings to her opinion of Folie à Deux, and to Joker before it. It's refreshing to hear an even-handed viewpoint of a film that has elsewhere been critiqued by an audience that - owed either to formal illiteracy or general bad faith - do not engage with the film in any meaningful way.

[@redactedandredactedaccesor7290]

Nadia might be right on it just needing to be shorter to hit harder. Gonna find out soon. Wish me luck.

[@Mr.LegendDude]

Come back and let me know your thoughts on it. It can't be as bad as some people say, can it?

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

@@Mr.LegendDude i thought it was pretty great

[@TripleBexter]

“Well I don’t think that was the point of the movie.” “Well that’s what I got out of it.” This channel is art

[@brigsy29]

This video is a really interesting contrast for me. Jake is someone who was clearly aware of the discourse around this film before he watched it, so his opinions contain a lot of reflections that have contemplated the opinions of others, either consciously or subconsciously. Meanwhile Nadia is seeing it almost fresh, with no predetermined points to reflect. Jake shared the sentiment that this film did nothing for the narrative while Nadia clearly found something interesting in it. I haven’t seen either joker film because I’m finding it more and more enjoyable to watch a film when all the discourse around it is gone. Then I can just see it for myself and not to confirm or deny some wider internet opinion.

[@cornnflaek6234]

I watched the film before seeing any reactions to it and I loved it. I still think it’s fantastic, and I was very surprised when I saw all the hate online.

[@brigsy29]

@@sunny-gt7qw I’m not saying the internet convinced him of his final opinion, I’m saying he will have contemplated other people’s takes while watching the film. This means consciously or subconsciously he will be going into the film with those opinions in mind. Nadia isn’t aware of the discourse so all her opinions are simply what she was experiencing without considering the opinions of others.

[@RH1812]

I enjoyed it. Though I seem to be an outlier. I loved Joker. I appreciate Folie is not just joker 2. It’s a new thing. Knock knock. Who’s there? Arthur who…? It definitely needed a few cuts, but then so did The Batman. Now that movie outstayed its welcome for me. Lee, for me, was a replacement for his mother, who also rejected him. The court scenes with the cast from Joker were good, Puddles definitely very emotional.

[@Joviaero]

I actually agree with Nadia here. I loved the music sequences acting as his inner world. I loved the first one and I liked this one too.

[@cooliostarstache5474]

I'm still interested in watching the movie, but I'll just wait until it releases at home

[@davidwilliama.7296]

I have been looking for a review that was at least somewhat positive about Joker 2. I personally liked it and would give it about a 7/10. I would probably rate the first one about the same, maybe slightly higher. I like them for different reasons and think they both have different issues. I liked several of the songs in Joker 2 and have been listening to them on repeat. Juaquin Phoenix did a great job in both movies. It definitely makes me want to see more movies he's in. Another thing I liked about this movie is the courtroom stuff. I just enjoy courtroom movies, and although it wasn't the best, I still liked it. About the ending, I thought it was interesting and makes sense. It definitely gave me a bit of shock. However, in the first movie, I thought Arthur was too old to be the Joker. Bruce wouldn't be Batman for quite a while, and Arthur would be a fairly old Joker by then, so it makes sense he dies and is an inspiration for a future Joker. I know many people wouldn't want another sequel, but I'd like to see this version of Harley get another movie to flesh her out more. I felt like she was just starting. That's kind of how I felt about the first movie. Arthur was just beginning to become the Joker towards the end, so it was disappointing for me in that aspect.

[@austinwilwayco]

I’d give it a 6.5/10 ngl. Really interesting and thought-provoking ideas. Would be better if the musical elements were more stylized and memorable or maybe removed entirely

[@wingflanagan]

I was more positive about this film. I enjoyed it, frankly. I don't see it as a repetition of the first film but rather as the completion of an arc that began there. I agree it could have been about 20 minutes shorter, but it wasn’t trying to create a mystery about whether Arthur was the Joker or if the Joker is “real.” Instead, it suggested that Arthur and the Joker are at war for control within the same person. It's not a question of identity; it's a battle. The animated opening made that clear. Yes, it was a story about a split personality, but not in the sense of Sybil or Fight Club. It's more like the angels and demons that fight within all of us-only in Arthur Fleck, those forces are greatly amplified. The musical sequences represent his inner dissociation, his way of dealing (or not dealing) with reality. To me, they feel organic, not tacked on. Arthur is far from one-dimensional. When reviewers say that, I honestly wonder if they were even watching the same movie. I also don’t think we needed to see more of Harley Quinn. It's better that she remains a cipher, a symbol. If there is a weakness in her characterization, it’s that the tightrope she walks between being a person and an abstract representation wobbles at times. Still, for the most part, I think it works. The key point is, for the story to succeed, we shouldn’t know anything Arthur doesn’t. Finally, I thought the return to the prison at the end of the story was perfect. It had a sense of symmetry and dark futility. His mind is the real prison, and he can’t escape it. He may think he's finished with the Joker, but it’s a pyrrhic victory: the Joker isn’t finished with him.

[@DarkZide8]

It wasn't a story about split personality - it was a story about others seeing him as Joker instead of Arthur Fleck the human that he is and him feeling the need to play the role of Joker.

[@ExpertContrarian]

Regressions and retcons are the opposite of a character arc being completed

[@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786]

⁠​⁠@@ExpertContrarian Not necessarily. There isn't only one way to write a character arc, that'd be pretty boring if every story followed the same formula. It's pretty common, especially in media with villain protagonists, for them to have regressive character arcs where we see how they could have been "good," but ultimately through choice or circumstance aren't.

[@ExpertContrarian]

@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 A villain getting worse isn’t a regressive character arc. You’re confusing that with regressing morals

[@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@ExpertContrarian No, I'm making it perfectly clear that a regressive, also known as circular, character arc (where a character ends right where they began) is a pretty common way of writing a character arc. Joel and Clementine in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind still pursue a relationship even after finding out they had their memories of each other erased because the last attempt ended poorly. The Dude and Walter in The Big Lebowski end the film one friend short and no richer or wiser by the end of the movie since they were both just pawns in the big Lebowski's embezzlement fraud. Kambei and Shichiroji in Seven Samurai begin the film as traveling, world-weary, death-seeking war veterans and despite their victory over the bandits and bringing happiness back to the peasant village, end the film being traveling, world-weary, death-seeking veterans. These are all highly rated movies. Joker 2's problems lie elsewhere. You can certainly think Arthur's arc is poorly executed. I personally dislike the nihilism of the execution, that he just suffers and dies is a waste of a movie that could have had more nuance and a better message (but I'm fully aware to have low expectations from the rest of Todd Phillips's body of work). But to say it's nonexistent is just media illiteracy.

[@KarltonOveMelk]

Man, Half in the Bag has really changed since they ditched the plinket story line

[@amalgamstudioz7044]

Y'all should see Transformers One while its still in theaters

[@ridofchris]

I thought it was okay, it’s definitely not the worst superhero movie of the year, the hate is a little overblown. This will probably be one of those movies that get a positive reevaluation in a few years.

[@petermj1098]

The first movie copied Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy both made by Martin Scorsese. The second movie copies the romance musical New York, New York also made by Martin Scorsese. Todd Phillips coping Scorsese again fell on its face in this film being pseudo intellectual.

[@FinnA07]

@@petermj1098 omfg yea, damn

[@YodaOnABender]

I hated this sequel. Not because I’m a deranged incel fanboy who admired Arthur Fleck, it’s just a bad sequel that didn’t need to exist

[@fightthepowerman]

Please explain to me which films you judge as *needing* to exist.

[@YodaOnABender]

@@fightthepowerman don’t twist my words loser. I didn’t say Joker 1 needed to exist, I said Joker 2 DIDN’T

[@YodaOnABender]

@@fightthepowerman never said any movie NEEDS to exist did I. I said this movie DID NOT need to exist

[@ataridc]

please stop screeching about incels in 2024. It's so, so played out. Liking Joker 1 doesn't have anything to do with being an incel just because some of that crowd embraced it. Some of that crowd embraced Fight Club, the Matrix, most Scorsese movies, Breaking Bad, and so on and so forth. The fans of a movie does not reflect on the merit of the actual film.

[@YodaOnABender]

@@ataridc unfortunately the internet won’t let that be the case because everything now has to be viewed as “if you like this then it’s because you’re X but if you don’t like it then it’s because you’re Y” and it’s exhausting

[@cardboard2night]

Well now I 100% know this movie is trash, thanks

[@marycas5974]

Completely agree with Nadia's take. Execution wise it could have been better but the idea was so anti movie sequel and mainstream that one has to take notice. Everyone disliking this movies direction and abandoning Todd Phillip's and JP for not doing the expected sorta fulfills this movies philosophy, no?

[@MayorOfEarth79]

I don't think so cause most people seem to hate it cause they were bored or that it felt repetitive. Like you can say Todd Phillips took a shit on stage and it means something; but Todd Phillips did still take a shit on the stage.

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

@@MayorOfEarth79 terrible analogy because a shit on stage has no meaning. this film literally has many points it successfully makes.

[@ExpertContrarian]

A self-fulfilling prophecy of dumping on your own fans is not much of a prophecy

[@trinaq]

I actually enjoyed this movie, and thought that the performances were engaging, and musical numbers fun.

[@chan_martin]

I saw someone else review this movie and it sounded like fan fiction. I can’t believe this movie got made 😭

[@curtiszyr]

Every bit of joker 2 is intentional, it’s meta Af and it’s the reason I like it and hate it at the same time. I appreciate the real world comparisons because art imitates life but I also wanted to see a cool movie. I’ve never seen an audience so disappointed and defeated in spirit after seeing a movie, it didn’t sit right with me. It’s almost evil what this movie does to you if you liked the first one 😂 I’m laughing but I’m serious. It’s like the people in the movie and real life are the same , or the people in real life are more like lady Gaga Harley Quinn who are disappointed in joker for not being/living up to who they think he is , it’s crazy !!

[@vincenthalfprice9930]

Everything that the Internet hates about the sequel sounds like the cure to everything I hated in the first movie, so it sounds like I **might** enjoy the second one. I'll find out in 1-6 months when it hits streaming; can't find myself taking the time and cost of a trip to the theater for another "serious" movie from the director of Road Trip and School For Scoundrels

[@ssseee3ds463]

Tbf I did hear the movie was made as a response to the the first one

[@MirthLogic]

i've seen a theory saying this movie was Troll job, If anything there's Meta Meta stuff starting to happen i think. Will be interesting to comeback to these movies in a year or 2, 'Fault of 2 ' , faulty sequel ? I think Megalopolis will be interesting to comeback too also. Art has to Change Somehow, everything changes. I know this might seem insane, but I have had this feeling for 6 years now watching some of these big IP Adaptions/Remakes with New Hollywood I can understand Artistic Creatives v Financial Tech Bosses , as we are seeing with Video Games lately. If anything, there's a lot of 'in between the lines' type Subtext going on

[@MirthLogic]

Or it could just be a statement on Love, and the repetitive / stuck dynamic sometimes Partners fall into as the movie Slows Down and becomes a Mess - type of thing? A musical of Love at first, then the honeymoon phase goes away, and the Movie starts avoiding you. But idk, hopefully in Time we know more about the last.... 10 years of Hollywoods' Choices with some of these IPs. I guess we just have to Figure out what Movies are gonna mean on are Own

[@thehousecat93]

Folie is not Fault, it’s Madness.

[@MirthLogic]

@@thehousecat93 madness can cause faultiness my friend. again im not being totally Literal in my flow of reason. It's a theory

[@eb2681]

Jonkler A Flower and Deuce

[@Karoljay2]

I’ve seen the movie it felt very bland and boring the story really didn’t go nowhere don’t get me wrong I like some Musicals but didn’t work in this film cuz it abrupt the story well as good Musical tells the story thru good Music notes like for example Greatest Showman where as this Joker 2 just your top 40 cover songs you heard a million times which halt the story and as for Lady Gaga Character was a waste she really didn’t get to shine just a plot convenience so in my opinion and felt like the first movie made a billion dollars they have to make another one doesn’t look good at box office and got a D cinema score both Critics and Audience score not good so I completely understand why a lot of people didn’t like it

[@MrMultiPat]

I come away closer to Nadia's take, I actually did like it, but I really didn't like the ending. It felt like it was building up to Harley and him escaping to do crime together or something, and then they don't get together and he's captured again, so the movie is kinda pointless. However, I actually did enjoy most of the movie up to that.

[@wa-bu3ke]

I wouldn’t call it divisive. People are united in not liking it

[@zuni4ful]

I’m the joker baby!

[@schemo6931]

I feel like they tried to mimic the arc Jimmy went through in the finale of better call Saul - Where Jimmy/Authur lets go of his Saul/Joker persona and takes responsibility instead of blaming others. It's just it took such a hard turn to get there, and just throws out all the society problems that they established in the first film. The other parts of the film, mainly harley, remind me of TLOU 2 and the reactions. It tries to take any grey area in the first and force a point of view that most of the audience didn't have. But I actually agree with Nadia, that Authur trying to heal and the mad mob/cult followers wanting him to stay the Joker was a cool thread that should have been focused on more. I think after some time people will look back on the movie better.

[@chan_martin]

It’s giving me TLOU 2 vibes for sure in the sense that a sequel was never really warranted, and so what they came up with was ultimately a jumbled mess that tried to say something about its predecessor but totally flopped in its execution.

[@ironyage]

Idolizing dysfunctional people to live out fantasies of violence is a social problem central in both movies. And I really liked the Ken Leung scene where he gives a mostly accurate analysis but then has to justify his indifference in the face of the patient’s horrific personal history.

[@Kohanman]

kinda interesting, i thought ending of better call saul was rubbish, almost ruined the series for me and I love the ending to this 🤷

[@kenjen9861]

I disagree with your assessment that this sequel threw out its critique of society. In the first film the flaws of our society were lampshaded, but not in the second film; but they did not leave, rather they took a back seat to explore Arthurs' character a bit closer and his effect on that society. If you look past the drama, you'll find quite a bit of society problems, especially about Correctional Facilities and it's staff.

[@thepagecollective]

doe not doo. I feel like this is a movie for a different audience than the first. It skews more female appeal than the first one

[@deangagatr3886]

It will definitely become a cult classic once the hate bandwagon is over

[@thehousecat93]

As a fan of most movies people consider flops, both historical and contemporary, Nah. It’s far too boring. It’s not “what the frick am I watching” and more “why the frick am I watching”.

[@Kohanman]

@thehousecat93 As a genius of most greatest wisdom, both historical and contemporar, Nah. 8/10 + better than the first one = only correct opinion

[@ExpertContrarian]

You’re presupposing that it’s just a bandwagon and not just a bad movie that people didn’t want.

[@deangagatr3886]

@@ExpertContrarian wah wah we didn’t get the movie we wanted wah wah we wanted joker not a musical wah wah bad movie wah wah grow up

[@ExpertContrarian]

@@deangagatr3886 “REEEEEE HOW DARE YOU NOT PRAISE QUEEN GAGA”

[@jacopovilla1590]

First one was great cinematography, well directed, and incredibly annoying. I’d say 7/10 and I’d never watch it again, ever. Now, I didn’t watch the second one because of the same expectation, and I like to hear that the movie is a rejection of the first one, but she says it’s the same as the first and he says 3/10? Please give me a reason to watch this movie. 😢

[@bardoftartarus]

Although Arthur doesn't have DID, Joker and Arthur are two separate entities. Joker represents a sort of spirit of criminality, the idea of deviancy that can exist in any person. By the end of the first movie, Arthur is offered freedom from his pain by this spirit and becomes "possessed." His life drives him over the edge of goodness, social conformity, and shame, all three of which are conflated in his perception, because the pressure to obey them comes from abusers who does not differentiate them. When he rebels against this, he is punished by his abusers, but discovers a new group of people who reward it. Harley Quinn and the psychopath represent this group of people that Arthur was a part of in the beginning of the first movie. People who are vulnerable to "possession." Both movies are saying that criminals are to be looked at as failures of society, not as islands. The first movie explains how this is true. It shows how someone goes from an otherwise harmless member of society, and is transformed into a criminal. The second movie explains why it is so very important that they be treated with empathy, not just for there sake, but that it's the only way to actually fight the Joker. That spirit, when unanswered in one person, simply moves to another. You can destroy it with violence. The last scene of the movie echoes the end of the first scene. After the shadow has had its way with Arthur's appearance, it leaves him into the psychopath, abandoning him to suffer the consequences. Forgive my shitty structure this is a KZbin comment

[@KevinKawaii]

The couple behind me groaned every time there was a musical segment, and I distinctly remember the guy saying "Why are they singing again?!? We should've watched Transformers." Ironically there were probably more jokes in that, than a movie called Joker.

[@cornnflaek6234]

Sound like very annoying people to sit near in the cinema

[@jaimecardona92]

I thought it was ok, glad to see someone else who has a positive view of the movie

[@MrMultiPat]

I would have appreciated if they'd cut one or two of the songs out, I do think it would have improved the film overall because it gets pretty long by the end, pacing wise.

[@danilopinioni]

I thought it was a terrible movie

[@aersla1731]

Woah I didn't know you had a second channel, it's strange to see you not speaking fast.

[@diepie5144]

The lawsuit thing sounds like it would be better if Arthur got a lawyer from a mental health advisor group, that wanted to use the case to push systemic change. Perhaps Arthur’s arc is realizing he can’t get out of prison, and instead embracing his persona as a way of helping people (or at least that’s the justification to the jury, at the same time he’s wrestling with his more violent tendencies alone in prison. Perhaps the first act ends with him embracing his personal, and a second-act subplot is him manipulating the factions of the prison as a way of accruing power, and he finds that he likes having power. Or some other character-defining, but largely negative, motivation that will form the basis of the Joker in future Batman movies) sorry long parentheses. The law firm representing him instead spends the second act trying to court public opinion and by doing that you can offer the same meta-commentary on the movie itself, a court movie in the court of public opinion. By the beginning of the third act you might think that there’s some hope, maybe not for Arthur (except maybe with the help of the idealistic and charismatic but stressed almost to the point of losing her commitment to the system, perhaps she takes increasingly shady actions to try to create change, lawyer in charge of his case, whom Arthur becomes smitten with). Then in the climax all hope is lost. Some bought-off politician crushes the case, and also the advocacy group, because he’s being bankrolled by, idk, it doesn’t really matter who for the message of the story. Maybe make it Bruce’s father. Then the Joker uses his new lackeys to break out of jail, and runs away with Beyoncé to do some terrorism.

[@diepie5144]

That way you get a (negative) character arc with Beyoncé, and the Arthur has his character from the previous movie reinforced while he develops the skills that he needs to be a Batman villain. Also if you’re reading this, thanks for reading my wall of text.

[@diepie5144]

Just finished the video, uhh yeah I guess him being pathetic and dying in prison works as well for a character arc. Still think it would be cool for Harley Quinn to be the lawyer who staked everything she had on either saving him, or fixing the system, only for everything she did within the system to amount to nothing, and for her to turn to… extrajudicial means.

[@SS-rr7by]

Absolutely not a disaster. I feel like the internet likes to speak in hyperbole and judge others who they view as being on the other end of the spectrum. The internet seems to have us thinking everything is either disgusting trash or fantastic. The reality is that just about everything falls in the middle of that. The scale the internet has us working with seems to just be a teeter totter. Doesn't want us to simply say "it was ok but I didn't love it"

[@gianni206]

Joker 2 had a chance to do something really cool: recontextualize the first movie as a total lie. Something the devil would make up in order to grab sympathy from the audience

[@crw1367]

4 views in 1 minute. you guys fell off (Persistentmeow did not have the strength to do it)

[@PersistentMeow]

Is it stronger to take a life or to preserve one?

[@bobjoneswof]

Thank you for taking up the mantle.

[@rebelprincess1164]

Disaster? I hardly know her?

[@harrytodhunter5078]

Folley a ducks

[@nanowithbeans2511]

7.5/10: Too much cigarretes

[@benzur3503]

I feel like the second movie is judging the audience for letting all the bad things fleck did slide on the first movie. It gives arthur a much less sympathetic description and a big ego. I think Phillips is trying to backtrack from creating a too sympathetic portrayal of a disturbed individual, and giving him a bit of nobility by concluding his trial with rejecting both the mental health excuse for his actions as well as his entertaining persona as “the joker”. Hes still not creating an interesting morally flawed character like the Scorsese movies he rips off, but hes trying to walk back what he regrets about the original. And also doubles down on the incel hints because harley steals his seed and abandons him as soon as he gives up his fame. 2/5 stars you tried

[@cornnflaek6234]

I’d argue that he’s just as sympathetic in this film. The whole time he’s trying to be accepted but everyone only wants the Joker, not him. I don’t think his rejection of the Joker was supposed to give ‘nobility’ but to show that he couldn’t cope with keeping up that persona anymore. When Puddles was describing how powerless and weak he felt, Arthur was genuinely affected by it and had to face what he’d done.

[@benzur3503]

@@cornnflaek6234 the rejection of the joker, and more importantly running away from his fans, seems to be a rejection of his violent actions to me. I dunno, how do you interpret them otherwise? If not to display authenticity at a personal cost of the fame that genuinely satisfies him, whyd he reject the joker label?

[@cornnflaek6234]

@@benzur3503 In the courtroom he was forced to face the facts that his violence affected people he cared about, and that it wasn’t just a punchline, self defence, or justice. He made a friend feel weak, powerless, and afraid. He ruined the life of the woman he wanted to love. Of course he’d want to reject that part of himself. I personally see this as very sympathetic.

[@benzur3503]

@@cornnflaek6234 yeah, it wasnt arthur that was being rejected. It was his violence

[@cornnflaek6234]

@@benzur3503 Well, at the end of the film the crowd and Harley reject Arthur. But yes, the rest of the time they are all focusing on the Joker and ignoring Arthur

[@ganjjabarsmedium2347]

Thank you for such a great co-review 🙌 also congratulations! My wife is 7 months pregnant, and it is a blessing. Bless you both! ❤️

[@holdeck]

I agree with both of you. It was a very interesting movie, and I think a lot of those hating on it are unknowingly playing into the core message of the movie. They wanted to see Joker, not Arthur; just like Harley and his supporters in the movie. Overall it had problems but I enjoyed my experience seeing it. The performances and visuals were great.

[@bigbeanburrito7459]

Wow! Someone with a functioning brain actually saw the movie! I was starting to think I was alone out here for thinking the same exact thing!

[@stormveil]

😂being meta doesnt make something good.

[@whatastandupguy3050]

Honestly, I’m just bored to tears by nihilism and meta commentary

[@thehousecat93]

I didn’t care about seeing Joker as opposed to Arthur. I wanted to see a halfway decent movie that the director wasn’t ashamed of existing. I didn’t receive that. All this “you just didn’t understand it, maaaaaan” discourse is so boring. Todd Phillips is not that deep first off and if the ENTIRE audience “just doesn’t get it”, the director did a shit job of explaining themselves regardless of how deep the messaging. It’s the director’s job to clarify what the point of the movie is.

[@Gino565]

It’s almost like people I real life just wanted an entertaining film about the character it’s named after, and the people within the context of the film were supporting a serial killer. But yeah, “playing into the message”.

[@dcmastermindfirst9418]

It definitely wasn't as bad as people are saying. The critics gave it 5... yet they gave Penguin a 5 too and it's amazing so you can't trust the critics.

[@ThizbeSylvan]

i really loved the movie and think the comic book fans are over reacting and reacting exactly how gaga and the joker followers do in the movie. "knock knock, whos there, arthur fleck, arthur fleck who?" exactly. "they only care when you're a joker" "if it was me lying on the ground youd walk right over me" you totally missed the point of the movies. it has nothing to do with batman comic characters

[@petermj1098]

Ah yes people watch two Joker movies not to see the real Joker lol

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

@@petermj1098 cry more. you just want a rehash of the same character uve seen over and over again.

[@petermj1098]

@@BuTTerJaFFaS Then why didn’t Todd Phillips make a new and original story instead of use a Batman character if he’s such a good filmmaker? Lol Todd Phillips ripped off Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy in the first movie. And the second movie he ripped off the romance musical New York, New York (also made by Martin Scorsese). Phillips fell on his face ripping off Scorsese again instead of making a proper Joker adaptation.

[@BuTTerJaFFaS]

@@petermj1098 because it was still an interpretation of the character and idea? what? still was a deep dive into the joker as a character.u wanted the same old rehash of the same character weve seen over and over again, ur boring.

[@petermj1098]

@@BuTTerJaFFaS Lol Dude even the “Joker” says he is not the Joker yet I am supposed to take the character seriously as an adaptation? Lol

[@Iamthebigcheeze]

It is a movie that didn’t want to be made.

[@RobertBrown-q9n]

Mariah Road

[@closeenuff]

Folie à Deux? More like Faute Adieu.

[@amirbrandon5011]

I agree with Nadia take but I would rate the film as a 8/10. I view the Joker duology as a morality tale and I view any good sequel is to challenge and innovate the theme of the prior film. It does a good job. Arthur's character isn't static at all, he changes, he recovered the bit of the empathy he lost in the first film. By the first film's conclusion, he's lost all hope, lost himself in anger and rage. And in the second film, he took steps by taking accountability. The court scene with the dwarf, his friend, captures this well, forcing Arthur to introspect, waking his empathy.

[@FallenKnight2244]

The musical scenes make me like this much much less. They are so unnecessary and lengthy and what they do is just reiterating things that have been said before.

[@kaydgaming]

This story ironically would have worked better in a literary format. This story is very painful to sit through.

[@apjapki]

Sounds like this was closer to soft reboot than sequel.

[@minionlover4576-bq8jk]

I’m upset and about to be outlasted, but Joker 2 SHOULD have been made. It should have been a musical. It should have followed the same story beats, which is why I’m so baffled that it wasn’t… great. Let me explain: The music was such an appealing aspect of this movie. I heard someone say before it came out that it would be a perfect chance to explore HQ and Jokers shared delusions. I enjoyed the slight majority (like 60/40) of the musical numbers, but sometimes they were just really unnecessary. Especially near the end. The story beats were good. I’ve heard people complain that Todd Phillips just wanted money so he made this, but I completely disagree. This is a response to how people idolized the Joker from the first movie (society hates to see a man in makeup). The courtroom following Jonkler 1s plot and recontextualizig it was great. The multiple personality subplot was utilized as well as I think it could have been in a setting where it didn’t fit. The lawyer and prison inmates felt like they fit, and yet, the pacing was a little too messy. Especially with Gaga. I liked a lot of it but it felt rushed, too much of her presence was dedicated to the more vapid musical numbers. But what they were using HQ for was perfect. I don’t think she was trying to radicalize Joker. I think she was radicalized by him, and was treating him as if he was radical, and not a psycho in makeup. (Except I will say I HATED the HQ and Jonkler sex scene holy shit I went into this movie praying for no Jonkler sex and I was really upset that Todd didn’t read my emails) And I really, really like the ending. Though it took me a while to get what this movie was saying where in the first one it was pretty obvious, once it got to the point it cemented it. Everyone turning their backs when they could no longer idolize a wretched, evil man because he felt bad was so satisfying, because that’s what fans of the first movie are doing. The people who yap about “you don’t understand joker” don’t understand this film, and that’s really, really funny to me. And when Aurther is murdered, perfect. About halfway through the movie I knew how I wanted it to end, with Aurther drowning in pity, regret, and blood. HQ trying to sing and Aurther begging her to stop was glorious. And Aurthers murder was perfect, the cycle of violence continues. (Though anyone who thinks that’s Heath Ledgers Joker is so dumb literally we saw Harvey Dent get his backstory here like don’t try to Marvel-ize this cmon) I’ll add that the reading that prison raped the Joker out of Aurther feels unfair, though that might be me coping. I read it as everything, the fans and the system and the pigs (maybe not all jokers are bad, but ACAB FS) depriving him of his humanity, and the rape was a part of it. I think what really broke him was listening to his mentee being brutalized by the cops also as he was in too much agony to fight back. Final note, I think when you look at what Joker could’ve done. This fantasy of killing the judge and rioting as himself and HQ get married as the city cheers him on, you see what Joker knew he could do. But he didn’t want that. In the first movie he kept telling Murray (stupidly, read leftist literature dumbass) that he wasn’t doing anything political. And that stands here. He didn’t want a big riot. He wanted to leave the world behind with Harley. And he made the decision to abandon Joker, to do what Aurther Fleck wanted, and he died for it. And the court room was destroyed and Gotham City was burned down in his name, but not for him. Gotham was and will be destroyed by the people who used Joker as an excuse to avoid responsibility. Jokers 2 is masterful at examining the first movie and its reception, and also does a good job at being too long yet sometimes rushed, messy, and at times self indulgent. Okay actual final note from self expirence kissing people in clown makeup is so much more difficult than the movie makes it seem NOT ACCURATE 2/10

[@Internatube]

Preggers!!!! 🥰

[@Jas-1793xvi]

She gets it

[@panuugueinee5276]

Woman carrying even bigger baby

[@kraszoski]

This movie was horrible... i have never seen si many people leave theather ... it was sooo stupid and it should not be 2 and a half hours long... it could be condenced for 90 minutes and it will be much better... but, if Todd Philips wanted to kill this francise i kinda respect it but still movie was bad.

[@danielbarrero2815]

Todd Phillips is just too misanthropic

[@lewa3910]

Is it a worse movie musical than Cats? Cuz either way that makes me wanna watch it.

[@christopheraquino9214]

The musical sequences added Everything to the movie. I think people (especially reviewers) expected one thing and this film made a U-turn in the middle of rush hour. What you must realize is that doing unexpected things aren't necessarily bad. In this case it made the film More enjoyable and More accessible. You sir, have failed your review exam. Whereas your wife caught on to the nuance and underlying themes. She gets an A++ and you, my fine young man, get an F--

[@justadude8845]

I mean, that's like your opinion, man...

[@whatastandupguy3050]

Please try to not sound so condescending like god damn

[@danielbarrero2815]

This movie is such a strange mess lol