Why 'The Rapture' is not what you think it is... (Understanding the End Times)

[@michaelwashington3873]

I appreciate your honesty! I couldn’t have explained it better. You are one of the few Bible teachers/ scholars I listen too and who has the courage to teach truth! Keep up the great work…with love and respect

[@dougbell9543]

Your teachings are like a breath of fresh air and so very greatly appreciated. ✔️ Keep up the great work!

[@JSK95]

Wow, this has been tremendously helpful! Especially understanding the context of the language that was used to persuade the imagery that the people of Thessalonica can understand. Context is so crucial! It's also unfortunate that not many people have seen this video! You explain it so well and more people need to understand this while studying the scriptures themselves, rather than just accepting blind popular teachings. There's so much wealth of knowledge in your channel and looking forward to learning more! Thank you for sharing and God bless!

[@Vmurph]

THANK YOU. I’ve been walking with the Lord 40 years… dissatisfied with church teachings for 30 of those years… seeking guidance for the last 8 years… and the past 2 years searching the interwebs and scouring KZbin for answers on HOW to understand my Bible. My search is finally over. I’m home 😌 THANK YOU for teaching me how to interpret scripture so I can finally understand the treasures God gave us that reveal Himself to us. And for finally being able to put the “rapture” *myth* behind me. (my mental health thanks you for that!) I found your channel 3 or 4 days ago and was, at first, a teeny bit skeptical. But the more videos I watched, the clearer my mind got, and the restlessness in my spirit finally went away! 🥳 After 40 years, my Bible is no longer just a book of scriptures, but now it’s an EPIC STORY and a LOVE LETTER from the Most High God.🙌🏻 I’ve been binge watching your videos for two straight days, and have no plans of stopping.😁

[@DiscipleDojo]

Wonderful! Glad to have you in the Dojo!

[@michaelmalone9062]

I'm curious about your educational and church background. This presentation is outstanding. Thanks.

[@DiscipleDojo]

BFA - University of Georgia ('00) M.Div - Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary ('06)

[@DevinAdint]

Interesting take on the rapture and end times. But to be honest prophecy has to be approached differently. There are two types of prophecy the first is not about predicting the future but about communicating God's heart on the issues and potential consequences. Actually all prophecy expresses God's heart but the second which predicts future events give glimpses into pictures of what will happen in the future so that you may not be able to tell the day or the hour but so that you will recognize it when it happens or is about to happen. When the context shows that what follow is predictive prophecy you have to shift to considering symbols and is what is being described here in the physical world or a representation of what's going on in the spiritual world. Then because these are glimpses you need to examine scripture looking for other passages addressing the same thing which might provide more details, define what a symbol means and then you switch to algebra replacing these generalities with the details and the symbols with their definitions to get a better picture. The passage 1 Thess 4:17 the meeting has a sense of a welcoming party the words of in the clouds and meeting the Lord in the air are not something you find in other accounts of apantesis so they must be understood on their own. Further Matt 24, same event, describes the same event giving more detail of God sending his angels out to gather His people. Then in 1 Cor 15, same event, we see the resurrection and gathering as happening in the twinkling of an eye and the other passages talk about Christ coming like a thief in the night. This is where Scofield and Darby got the idea of people disappearing from the world. If you add in Rev 11 and on the picture even gets bigger. It does give the picture of meeting the Lord in the air then Rev 16 seems to talk about a gathering to Armageddon. Also Jesus said he went to prepare a place for us so our place is not here but somewhere else. To be honest I keep hearing that the place is here on earth which I find disturbing. My Dad's private pilots license I've flown in planes and ultralights touching the sky and with Macgee I say "Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings Sunward I’ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds, - and done a hundred things ... Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew - And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod The high untrespassed sanctity of space, - Put out my hand, and touched the face of God." So if everyone keeps saying we are stuck on this dirty ground, no I do not accept that..

[@clintd3476]

Excellent treatment of this material.

[@pastorchrismullis]

This is a great explanation JM. You really did a great job explaining this.

[@DiscipleDojo]

Thank you!

[@chrisart4you]

There is only one resurrection at the return of Christ. If there is a rapture with a resurrection before the tribulation, then what resurrection is at the end of the tribulation? You can't have it both ways. At the return of Christ such as mentioned in 1st Thessalonians, there is a rapture then where is the other resurrection?

[@philipberry2704]

Thank you for the way you explain scripture in a way that the average person can understand not only on this video but your other ones as well I just came across you on KZbin yesterday thank you🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@terryhumberd7546]

Glad to hear the truth of what will happen when Jesus comes back. Glad that amillennials and historical premillennialism speaking giving people an opportunity to leave behind this left behind teaching

[@biblehistoryscience3530]

The Greek noun apantesis is defined as “meet, meeting” and was used for special meetings, but the word has nothing to do with what people do when they meet or where they go after.

[@DiscipleDojo]

@@biblehistoryscience3530 context, grasshoppa.

[@biblehistoryscience3530]

@@DiscipleDojo , Well, Jesus used _apantesis_ in the parable of the ten virgins, and they went back to his house because that's the Jewish custom.

[@byzantinehoplites]

Apantiseis means a response it does not mean meet. A response can be personal or celebratory depending on the context.

[@DiscipleDojo]

In Koine it meant to meet. See the references noted for instances where that is the meaning.

[@BillWalkerWarren]

Good video. I had heard of the rapture growing up but being a unbeliever I only knew what it was from seeing stuff on tv or hearing things in causal conversation. So after I first came to believe and read my Bible I thought I must be reading John’s apocalypse wrong . No rapture there and couldn’t find it anywhere in scripture, at least the war pop Christianity portrays it . It wasn’t long before I came to realize someone got sold something and wasn’t me . Today I lean Amill but not firmly committed. This video will be helpful to folks great job . Blessings

[@richardvoogd705]

Thank you for sharing your insights. It has bothered me for a long time that some groups use parts of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to teach that there's going to be a "secret rapture." It reads to me like it's going to be noisy, as is the case with the events described in 2 Peter 3:10.

[@kingdomm88]

I don't agree with everything you say, but I like you. I agree there is no stealth (or a double second coming) rapture even though I had believed that previously for years. I do believe in the rapture in that we will meet Jesus in the air and immediately return with Him to earth. So I believe in the rapture in that sense. Do you get more into that subject in your series Apocalypse Now?

[@DiscipleDojo]

Thank you! And yes, we look in more detail at 1Thess 4 in that podcast series when we look at eschatology in Paul's letters.

[@HapaBindery]

Hey I’m listening to the end times podcast you had mentioned and it’s fantastic! Is there a way to get the handouts you gave that class, or is that off the table? This is bringing up some other questions for me as well that I will be studying next btw.

[@DiscipleDojo]

@@HapaBindery email me through the website contact page and I'll see if I still have them. That was over a decade ago, so I may not have them anymore.

[@HapaBindery]

@@DiscipleDojo Aloha! Thank you so much! I will go ahead and do that. Thank you for your response and just whenever you have time.

[@DarkPaladin1130]

I dont wanna think Jesus will put his church through the tribulation. "Jesus did many things as well. If everyone of them was written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have the room for the books that would be written." John: 21: 25

[@ozrithclay6921]

His closest friends suffered worse. And he said no one is greater than him. If Jesus suffered, we as his followers will too.

[@m.willow11]

Amen! And Jesus actually prayed to keep us IN the world, not to take us out! ​@@ozrithclay6921

[@lindajohnson4204]

Luke 21:36 - Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[@drbill-r9f]

Rapturous presentation! Thanks.

[@edwinalvarez1619]

I never liked that movie, too scary. Excellent teaching, thank you sir.

[@richardpetervonrahden6393]

Thank you. Once again, you have given a very direct and focused summary that properly explored the key verse in Thessalonians. Your explanation of the Greek meaning of the key word in this verse is very valuable in getting to the actual meaning of this concept.

[@foureyefreak00]

Furthermore, have you read a book called “Armageddon, Oil, and the Middle East Crisis” by John F. Walvoord? It was first published in 1974 after the first oil crisis and it has undergone a few revisions. What do you think of it?

[@DiscipleDojo]

Walvoord is a Dispensational Premillennialist with whom I fundamentally disagree. I do not ascribe to his views on Scripture interpretation, particularly when it comes to eschatology.

[@TroubadorToday]

Thank you for being Biblical about this “touchy” subject! So many are “caught up” on the rapture that they base their life under that premise daily in anticipation. Such a distraction! It is tiresome having discussions with rapture-adherents, so I will direct them to this well-explained video of yours!

[@JesusWantsU]

I believe that Paul's description in 1 Thes 4 of the bodily return of Jesus is more than only figurative to describe that his own will be happy to see him return. That doesn't sound fitting. Rather, he clearly is describing a physical transformation event. The fact that he includes detail of how those who've died will be resurrected first, then the living right after them, indicates or proves this is a literal physical event. If it all is figurative, why this detail? We are (unfortunately?) not told in God's Word where Jesus (and we who go to meet and remain with him) goes following the meeting event. If one theorizes that the event is immediately followed by Jesus continuing down to wipe-out his adversaries at Armageddon, then begin his reign out of Jerusalem, then you likely believe in a post-Tribulation Rapture interpretation. And where we go on the earth is not stated. If one theorizes that the event is followed by Jesus then returning to his Heaven with us, then a pre-Tribulation Rature interpretation is a speculated possibility, but it does have some vague Biblical principle support (but so does the common occurrence of Christians living through trials). So unless one can prove from the Bible where Jesus goes following this meeting, nobody can say where he goes, and by this they also cannot say when this event will happen in the End Times events era.

[@DiscipleDojo]

It's the Resurrection and final judgment. Reading anything into it about Jesus "taking" people anywhere is importing something into the text that is simply not there.

[@JesusWantsU]

@@DiscipleDojo People logically and rightly tie together all of Jesus’ and Paul’s teachings about the soon-coming event of Jesus bodily returning with warning to be ready spiritually for this quick event. You’re trying to separate 1 Thes 4 from those -- that it’s describing a joyous welcoming-type meeting that will happen at the end of the Millennium, 1,000 years after Jesus’ return at the end of his 1,000 year reign. That clearly is not a logical interpretation of 1 Thes 4.

[@russellmcmahan3157]

Are you saying that Christian's (the church) aren't in the book of Revelation? The church is raptured or goes through the Tribulation period.

[@DiscipleDojo]

Christians are everywhere in Revelation...it was written to them to give them the fortitude to endure all tribulation (which John himself is a fellow sufferer in 1:9). The idea that God will take His people out of the world before things get really bad is 100% antithetical to Scripture and was only popularized in the 1800s.

[@LyleCooper]

"The idea that 1 Thes. is talking about some secret, invisible, disappearing of people..." Many people set up a strawman to later tear down, as a form of argument. Paul never used any of these words. He merely called it a catching away and for those living, that our bodies would be changed. How can the rapture be secret when it will come with a loud trumpet and a shout? One thing the rapture will NOT be is "secret." The entire world will know SOMETHING happened! I don't believe there is a scripture anywhere that tells us for certain that people will disappear. We may GUESS that the moment we are changed, we will no longer be visible to those not changed, but it is only a guess, for Paul does not tell us. Will the body of Christ on earth suddenly disappear? That remains to be seen or not seen, which ever the case is. What we can know for certain is that Paul's rapture/gathering will come JUST before the start of God's wrath. John shows us that God's wrath will come just before the 70th Week. Then God allowed John to see the just-raptured church in heaven as written in Rev. Chapter 7 as that great crowd, too large to number.

[@DiscipleDojo]

@@LyleCooper that is not what Revelation is depicting, I'm afraid. See the SuperheroSeminary episode with Lion-O and the Lion of Judah for what the crowd John sees actually denotes.

[@LyleCooper]

@@DiscipleDojo Dojo, did you ever wonder why John stopped his narrative of the seals between the 6th and 7th seals? Have you ever watched a play where then close the curtain between Acts? What happens behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting to fit the next act. For John, the next act will be the opening of the 7th seal, which is the final seal, which then will allow the BOOK to be opened, which will begin Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, before John can write of the opening of the 7th seal, he must first rearrange the setting. Father God cannot and will not allow the 7th seal to be opened to begin the time of Jacob's trouble UNTIL first, He sees the 144,000 sons of Jacob be sealed for their protection from the stinging beasties at the 5th trumpet. Next, Father God must see the church safely in heaven before His wrath will come with the events of the 70th week. Therefore, I believe that great crowd, too large to number, is the just raptured church. They come from every language group and every ethnic group. Their every description fits the just raptured church. Many are distracted by "great tribulation" (GT) and suppose these are martyrs of the GT. This cannot be, for at the 6th seal, John has not yet even started 70th week, much less has he arrived at the midpoint. From Jesus' own words, can can understand that the days of great tribulation that HE spoke of cannot even begin until the midpoint of the week. We can also know for certain that chapters 11, 12, and 13 are John's MIDPOINT chapters. What then can John mean by "these are those who are coming out of GT... (the Greek verb is present middle tense.) 7:14 ...These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (CSB) (I counted 14 English translations that show "coming.") "Coming" is a present tense verb that is continuing. One person said they are coming "one by one." Many people expect John to hear HOW this huge group suddenly got from earth to heaven, but that is NOT what John is told. Rather, John was told how EACH INDIVUAL member of this huge crowd joined this crowd. Each one washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. In other words, each one Joined this crowd by being BORN AGAIN. And at the time John wrote (and continuing today) people were STILL being added to this Huge crowd. Next, I consider the timing Paul gave us for the rapture, as it happening JUST before the start of the Day of the Lord, so just before the 6th seal, then John agrees with Paul's timing. The church was seen in heaven just after the 6th seal. Therefore, Brother, I must disagree with you on this. I watched "ThunderCat Lion-O Talks Lamb of God" but did not get much out of it. Perhaps that was not the one you suggested. Anyway, thanks for taking time to answer.

[@LyleCooper]

"So when Paul wrote of believers being snatched up into the clouds, He is again, NOT THINKING of a vertical ascent..." WHERE are clouds? Are they not UP in the air? This is what happens when people choose not to take scripture literally. John 14 tells us that Jesus WENT (up into the air) to go and prepare homes for us, in heaven where He lives. And He said that one day He would return and get us and take us to those Homes He went to prepare. I have read testimony after testimony of people who have BEEN THERE to see these homes, but got prayed back to earth. There is simply no reason NOT to take John 14 literally. Finally, what direction is UP? Again, if we look UP we see clouds. I believe, if someone has built their faith on being left behind, God will honor their faith and they WILL be left behind. (See Hebrews 9:28.)

[@Vmurph]

31:03 So Heaven will ultimately be right here on earth??😃 Did I interpret that wrong? I’ve always felt that way. However, if Heaven will be here on the NEW Earth with the New Jerusalem, then what is the New *Heaven* ?

[@divinityofblackness6330]

my presumption is that there are different "heaven"(s). When in the plural (as it is in Revelation), heavens are the sky. When in the singular, it typically refers to the heavenly realm where God dwells with his Angels. that's just my 2 cents on the matter (literally...2 points=2cents 🤣)

[@foureyefreak00]

Hi, I find your very informative and useful video on rapture a few days ago. Thanks very much. But I have a question that has puzzled me practically for decades. Is Matthew 24:40 about the rapture? I always connect this verse with rapture and it troubles me a lot. Can you give me some hints on understanding this verse? Thanks 🙏

[@DiscipleDojo]

No, it is not. There is nothing in the Olivet Discourse about the rapture. See our SuperheroSeminary video here on the channel called "Thanos Explains Left Behind" as well as my book on Amazon "You WANT to be 'Left Behind'!!" for more on this topic.

[@foureyefreak00]

Thanks 🙏

[@robwagnon6578]

So what is the description of Revelation where it says the 'first resurrection' what's that about?

[@DiscipleDojo]

See our series on Revelation here for a walk through that book.

[@spacemanspiff9773]

The Left Behind series has caricaturized the Day of the Lord to something that would make any first century Christian to do a 🤦🏻‍♂️!

[@DiscipleDojo]

Facts.

[@revelationscoronation8916]

In the end it's Our Lord's laws and Our Saviour's return we should follow and anticipate and remember to reconciliate. But thank you for bringing this to light 🙏

[@hyramchepoofniac8121]

I can certainly tell that by all the super hero and comic book trash he has set up behind him that he would really know. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. . . . . and neither of these two quotes have the word "rapture" in them.

[@DiscipleDojo]

This comment is judgmental nonsense. Stick with Scripture and look forward to the *Resurrection* not an unbiblical "rapture."

[@Vmurph]

@@DiscipleDojo​​⁠I can’t believe all the negative comments on this video. I didn’t realize how deeply entrenched people are in the idea of a “rapture”, even to the point where they’ll refuse to look at any other information, no matter how true it might be. I think the number of comments like these shows how badly in need we are of MORE videos (like this one) that teach the PROPER way to interpret the Bible… through exegesis, not imagination. They hold to false beliefs because they were indoctrinated that way (like I was). We need more people like you to reach the hearts of people who seek TRUTH OVER COMFORT. Thank you for this! Please keep making more🙏🏻

[@michaelbradley6004]

Wow, idk much for sure, but not believing God can work a miracle is frankly, shocking. Your God is not capable of teleporting a billion people to Him? But He can create the universe? Hmm... He can become flesh and resurrect, but cant glorify us in an instant?

[@DiscipleDojo]

If the Bible actually said it, sure. But it doesn't. This is why you should watch a video before committing on it.

[@FeedScrn]

I am finding that people on the internet who don't believe in a Pre-Trib rapture - are pretty much not baptized in the Holy Spirit, as described in Acts 2... endued with Power from On High....

[@DiscipleDojo]

I don't find that at all. See Michael Brown, Craig Keener, and Gordon Fee for examples of charismatic Spirit-filled teachers who recognize the rapture as unbiblical.

[@FeedScrn]

@@DiscipleDojo - You?

[@AllforOne_OneforAll1689]

What's your scriptural support for a pre-trib rapture?

[@FeedScrn]

@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 - You know the scripture: "No man knows the day, or the hour. Not even the Son of Man". - When the Trib starts... I bet you that all the Mid-tribbers will be calculating exactly when the middle of the Trib will be.. even to the day and even the time of day... - Same thing with Post-Tribbers for the end of the Trib. - These calculations fly in the face of the scripture: "No man knows the day"...

[@AllforOne_OneforAll1689]

@@FeedScrn I agree no one knows the hour of the end. You didn't answer my question however...

[@PatrickDOBrien2]

❤️‍🔥 Its sad so many of our beloved family are lead away from believing the Rapture event. It is plain as day. Nevertheless dear family, Maranatha! 😍

[@DiscipleDojo]

If by "rapture event" you mean "resurrection at Jesus' return" then yes, that is plain as day. If by "rapture event" you mean disappearing off the earth before a 'tribulation', then no...that is very much *not* plain. If it were, at least SOME of the Church Fathers, Reformers, or anyone before the 1820s would have taught it. Rapture theology = 100% man-made doctrine with no basis in the exegesis of Scripture itself.

[@frankgosselin7774]

We going to be a Rapture by the Christ very soon pretty soon get ready brothers and sister and if you agree or disagree with the Rapture doesn't care if you're a Christian you going to b b rapture on the same time

[@michelleishere4709]

You need to lean dispensations…. You are confused with the rapture and when Jesus comeback to deal with Jacob… time of Jacobs trouble.. the church is not appointed to wrath!!!

[@DiscipleDojo]

The system you are talking about was invented in the 1800s. It is not biblical.

[@DarkPaladin1130]

​​@@DiscipleDojo I don't think God stopped 2000 years ago making adjustments for his creation. I do believe God can and HAS been on the move sense then. Rapture, sure was added in 1800's..but God maybe, just maybe added new stipulations for the end times.

[@ozrithclay6921]

What we think (or want) has no bering God's will or truth.

[@jonasaras]

Unfortunately, you’re not going to find that in the Bible. The wrath mentioned in Romans 1 has nothing to do with a supposed 7 year tribulation period. The opposite of wrath is salvation (Rom 1:16)

[@andrewstidham7950]

Being spiritually unintelligent will be no excuse for alot of us on judgement i gather. When it's plain as day if you will just let God teach ya. Which some want to lean to there own understanding which simply will not do with God. My people are killed all the day long my people perish for the lack of knowledge says the Lord I may not worded that correct but it says it something like that in his word. And Jesus said I will raise them up at the last day.... LAST DAAAAAAY! LAAAAAAS5T DAAAAAAAAY! really isn't any clearer then that and revelations makes it clear also

[@DiscipleDojo]

There is no book called "revelations" in the Bible.

[@marystout1606]

I heard credible speaker on here say word "cloud" is not original word used. What do you think? Maybe Jesus's second coming is at end of tribulation since we are already about half way thru it.

[@DiscipleDojo]

I'm afraid I don't know what passage you are referring to.

[@Strongtower]

Do you mean "clouds" in 1 thess 4:17? I'm not sure where that speaker got that information. Our earliest Papyri (early 3rd century) of 1 Thess 4:17 (P 30) has clouds (νεφέλαις).

[@aumtheaum3827]

I respectfully disagree with this type of belief. I believe in the Rapture myself.

[@youngrevival9715]

Its not a belief it’s exegesis and hermeneutics.

[@DarkPaladin1130]

​@@youngrevival9715 God didn't stop 2000 years ago making adjustments for his creation. God always on the move, wouldn't surprise me if he has made a few changes sense then. Rapture maybe, one of those changes.

[@lindajohnson4204]

​@Vmurph Verbal reasoning is rarely as "scientific" as numeric reasoning. There are a lot of variables that may not be acknowledged. The more subjective, the more variability, including in theological terms. (Oh, boy, is it ever true for theological terms!) I will continue to believe in the Rapture, and I won't worry about being accused of being a "science denier" for disagreeing with you.

[@lindajohnson4204]

​​@@DarkPaladin1130what exactly do you believe that God has changed in the last 2000 years? Jesus said His word would never pass away. In order for His word to not pass away, it cannot be replaced in its meaning. He didn't mean that His words were empty markers, subject to creating new meanings for them.

[@sydney.g.sloangammagee8181]

The Bible is the Living Word of God . . . whatever you seek to find, that is what you will find!!! Every religious belief successfully finds scripture to support their belief . . . Thank God that He knows the level of deception that comes in these Last Days because obviously every single human who reads the Bible & interprets it their own way, cannot possibly be right . . . Thank God salvation is based upon being 'born again' by belief in Jesus as the Son of God who died & rose from death in our place & for our sins & NOT upon whether we believe in amillennial, premillennial, postmillennial or pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib sequence of events. I am encouraged that "billions" will be crowded into Jerusalem & super huge banquet table - but stated negatively is putting limits on God, like God hadn't thought of that? That's my red flag that something is not correct in somebody's thinking & interpretation of scripture . . . God cannot be wrong, God is unchanging, God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniportent & every other omni... to describe God, way beyond my level of thinking. So, I'm just going to trust in God & not any human for how things will come to pass.

[@sydney.g.sloangammagee8181]

The Bible is the Living Word of God . . . whatever you seek to find, that is what you will find!!! Every religious belief successfully finds scripture to support their belief . . . Thank God that He knows the level of deception that comes in these Last Days because obviously every single human who reads the Bible & interprets it their own way, cannot possibly be right . . . Thank God salvation is based upon being 'born again' by belief in Jesus as the Son of God who died & rose from death in our place & for our sins & NOT upon whether we believe in amillennial, premillennial, postmillennial or pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib sequence of events. I am encouraged that "billions" will be crowded into Jerusalem & super huge banquet table - but stated negatively is putting limits on God, like God hadn't thought of that? That's my red flag that something is not correct in somebody's thinking & interpretation of scripture . . . God cannot be wrong, God is unchanging, God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniportent & every other omni... to describe God, way beyond my level of thinking. So, I'm just going to trust in God & not any human for how things will come to pass.

[@marks3400]

The word of God is inspired.the translation is not.can faith really be understood logically ?

[@lindajohnson4204]

With the help of the Holy Spirit, yeah.

[@robertchalmers1963]

How to know the Christian god does not exist: There are over 100 eschatological time statements in the New Testament that all say the second coming of Jesus is “near, at hand, at the doors, will happen shortly” etc. Here’s just a few: 1 John 2:18, 1 Peter 4:7, James 5:8, Heb 10:37, Rev 1:1&3, Rev 22:6,7,10,12,20. Seven of these time statements (Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:34, Mark 8:38-9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:26-27, Luke 21:32) state Jesus’ second coming will occur before all his disciples die and in the same generation that sees the Jewish temple destroyed. The Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 CE by the Romans. It is one of the most well attested historical events in all of human history. What did Paul believe would happen at the second coming of Jesus? Paul believed that flesh and blood physical bodies would not enter the kingdom of god when it arrived. (1 Cor 15:50, Rom 8:18-23). Nor would the unrighteous (1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21). We know Paul believed this from verses like these as well: Rom 7:18,23-25, 1 Thess 4:15-17, 1 Cor 15:50-53, Rom 8:23, Phil 3:20-21. Paul also believed that the curse of Gen 3:16-19 would be lifted at the second coming of Jesus. Paul states this in Rom 8:18-23. This would result in a universe that had no more suffering, death or decay (Rev 21:4). Paul was the earliest Christian writer and wrote before the temple’s destruction in 70 CE. The gospel writers wrote after 70 CE. We can know this by using simple logic that I will demonstrate a little later. But first, what did the gospel writers think would happen at the second coming of Jesus? All the wicked would be judged and destroyed and all the righteous would be delivered and rewarded. (Matt 13:36-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 24:45-51, Matt 25:31-46, Luke 12:46-48, Luke 17:24-30 etc.) The rest of the NT writers believed the same (James 5:1-8, Heb 10:25-39, Rev 20:11-15 etc.) So Paul believed flesh and blood physical bodies, as well as the unrighteous, could not inherit the kingdom of god when it arrived at the second coming of Jesus. And the gospel writers believed all the wicked would be destroyed and cast out of the kingdom at the second coming of Jesus and that this must occur before all the disciples died and during the generation that saw the Jewish temple destroyed. Therefore... The fact that you and I are walking around in flesh and blood, physical bodies 2,000 years later is certain proof that Paul and the other NT writers were not telling the truth. Paul thought the physical body was corrupt and in bondage to sin because of Adam’s sin in the garden. It needed to be replaced in Paul’s mind. Paul says this many times throughout Romans and his other writings. Paul was either deliberately lying (which I think is unlikely) or suffering from hallucinations. Paul thought these hallucinations were “revelations” and “visions” from his messiah Jesus. We can see clues about this in some of his writings (Gal 1:11-12, 1 Cor 14:2, 1 Cor 14:14, 1 Cor 14:18). In 2 Cor 12:1-7 Paul boasts about his “visions” using the third person. We know he is doing this from the immediate context of 2 Cor 11. Paul was hallucinating. The gospel writers wrote after 70 CE. They had seen the temple destroyed. They brilliantly used this to market their Jesus. The gospels revolve around the tension between Jesus and the Pharisees and Sadducee’s. The gospel writers used this to win new converts. They “remembered” Jesus predicting the destruction of the temple. Many passages in the gospels are conveniently about the destruction of the Jews and their temple (Matt 21:33-46, Matt 23, Matt 24, Mark 12:1-12, Luke 13:34-35, Luke 20:9-19). To top it off, the gospel writers added miracles to their gospels and grew the legend of Jesus. How do I know this is true? Because Paul and the other NT writers promised that perfect bodies and a perfect universe would be all that remained after the second coming and this obviously did not occur in the first century generation. The first century Christians were an apocalyptic cult and their predictions failed. Please remember that the Bible claims it is the “word of God” (2 Tim 3:16, Heb 4:12, Isa 40:8, Psalm 119:105, Matt 24:35 etc.) and that God cannot lie (Exo 20:16, Num 23:19, Pro 12:22, Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18 etc.) yet this god lied over 100 times about his imminent return that would make everything perfect. This was probably the most important promise in the entire New Testament. It certainly was to Paul. And this promise was broken. Paul considered the new body he would receive “salvation” (Rom 7:23-25, Rom 8:23, Phil 3:20-21, 1 Cor 15:50-55). I was a Christian for 32 years. I wrote this because I want to help people escape a religion and a god that I am convinced does not exist. I hope you will consider these arguments and look into them. Thank you for reading and I wish you well.

[@tabasco7915]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZ3TZ2aCrdern5I

[@revelationscoronation8916]

Okay first of, learn to discern symbols, gematria and root-words and not take it out of context, you need to be all encompassing when looking at the whole picture and not just dot it together, but thanks for trying..

[@Daniel-id6le]

You are repeating Schweitzer historical jesus. This historical jesus has long ago passed away. Predate your gospels, including john to all before 70 and and you will see better. The words of jesus are not after the fact prophecies as you will learn at liberal bible schools. The words of jesus were prophetic just like the prophets before him. As a matter of fact predate all writings in the nt before 70 and and you will find a greater explanatory power in the nt

[@robertchalmers1963]

@@Daniel-id6le That's just your bias speaking. You have no proof that all those books were written before 70 CE. You are just making that claim because you want to believe in your Jesus because it comforts you. Luke 17:26-30 and Matt 24:37-39 both state that all the wicked will physically die at the second coming and the other time statements I mentioned in my original comment prove it had to happen in the first century or your god is a liar. Also everything will be made perfect at the same time (Rev, Rom 8:18-23 etc) Did those things happen in the first century? Obviously not. If your god is a liar then he is a sinner and cannot be the sinless sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world and all of Christian theology is destroyed by a simple logical argument a 5 year old child can understand. You are dishonest. You are not holding the NT writers accountable for what they said but I am willing to bet you will do it with everybody else. That is hypocrisy. Your god cannot exist.

[@tabitapaulet2864]

And which religion you say it has the true if it’s not Christianity?

[@eyesopen5644]

BOY, ARE YOU GONNA BE SURPRISED -- WHEN MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND ALL THE CREATURES VANISH OFF THE EARTH!!!! ALL THESE THINGS YOU'RE BADMOUTHING WILL VERY SOON HAPPEN!!! I'M PRAYING FOR YOU.

[@DiscipleDojo]

Using all caps still doesn't make anything you're saying actually appear in Scripture. Follow God's Word, not 19th century man-made theories.

[@andrewstidham7950]

Creatures? Jesus did NOT shed his holy blood for any other creature other then created MAN!..

[@eyesopen5644]

@@andrewstidham7950 : You're right. He didn't. He didn't need to, because his creatures never sinned in the Garden of Eden, so they're innocent and have an automatic ticket to Heaven! U will see.

[@revelationscoronation8916]

Then what's the point of the 144k saints? Think about it, also look into root-words before you do fear-monger caps lock thank you..

[@revelationscoronation8916]

@@eyesopen5644 Stop worshipping animals, your actively trying to make god's people sin, everything has an order and if you don't know what laws to follow, look it up..

[@vfs148]

I have studied this over and over, and I have come to the conclusion that the rapture is what happens to every believer when they die. The context of 1 Thessalonians 4 is the resurrection of the dead. The souls of the OT saints and martyrs were resurrected first at the end of the old covenant. What I believe Paul is saying about "we who are alive and remain" is in the context of when we die. This must be compared to John 13 where Peter is told by Jesus that he cannot go where he is going yet. The context is that Peter can't go to be with Jesus until he dies. This leads to John 14 where Jesus goes on to explain that He will receive them so that they can be where He is. He receives them at the time of their death. Their soul is snatched (harpazo) from their body instantaneously as ours will be also at our death. This is also confirmed in Psalm 49:15 where the psalmist writes that "my soul is redeemed from the power of the grave, for He shall receive me." To me, it is clear that the rapture occurs at death. We die and our soul is snatched from our body, and we are now immediately in the presence of the Lord. Then, when Jesus returns, our bodies will be resurrected. I know I could be wrong about this, but to me, it makes the most sense.

[@sishrac]

I understand your conclusion, which would certainly be true when we do die. But I see 2 different things happening one after the other. 1 Cor. 15: 50 - 56 also refers to the same event. Specifically... 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. So, the dead were to arise, and then those believers still alive are 'changed' or 'caught up with the dead in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.' I want to add something seriously overlooked by most Christian scholars, which is the Hebraic idea that the souls of faithful saints, including the Old Covenant patriarchs, were waiting in Sheol for deliverance. In other words, we read they were not yet in the presence of God in heaven but awaiting some event to be delivered from Sheol. This gives a better context for the hope of the resurrection of the dead. This explains Hebrews 9: 28 and Heb. 11: 39 - 40 better, firstly, of who eagerly awaited the deliverance and why and when the waiting would be over. - 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. - Heb. 9: 27 - 28 - 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. - Heb. 11: 39 - 40 If we read 1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18 and 1 Cor. 15 connecting the passages in Hebrews referring to the eagerly awaiting dead saints, we'll get the urgency in the writers' tone and appreciate the end many in that generation saw. They all point the timeline to the 1st-century ending of the Old Covenant age with the destruction of the temple and the nullifying of the Jewish opposition rule, which vindicated Christ and the persecuted church with the inauguration of the new creation in Christ made up of Jews and Gentile (new heaven and new earth). The wicked souls who had died received their judgment, and Sheol is no longer there. The dead in Christ may be translated instantly in the spirit into the presence of God from then on. The living being caught up in the clouds to meet Christ's parousia or being changed could very well be words describing the church descending officially with Him as the New Jerusalem on earth. Spiritual death is conquered by Christ and those in His Kingdom.

[@vfs148]

@@sishrac "Cor. 15: 50 - 56 also refers to the same event. Specifically... 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." When Paul writes that we shall not all "sleep", he is referring to the OT saints whose souls have been "sleeping" in the grave since the beginning up to that point. Their soul was asleep in the grave. At the end of the old covenant, their souls went to be with the Lord. When he says that we shall not all sleep, he is stating that when we die, our soul immediately leaves the body and is translated/raptured into the presence of the Lord. Our soul does not stay in the grave as it did in the OT saints. If this is not what Paul was referring to, then why did he practically spend an entire chapter explaining what has to happen to the body in the grave to people who were supposedly going to get "raptured"? That makes no logical sense. If he writes in 1 Thessalonians 4 that they're going to be ascending into the clouds to be with the Lord, why does he have to explain to them that their body goes into the grave and gets changed? It is only through physical death that the soul becomes immortal and incorruptible and can be in the presence of the Lord. Then the day will come when we receive our glorified body.

[@sishrac]

@@vfs148 Thank you!! Just so you know, I stand corrected. I see the passage clearer now that Paul is only referring to the dead, which includes the living saints when they die from the moment the Old Covenant ends. So, I gather that you also see in Paul's writing that the initial dead he writes about were the Old Covenant saints. Do you also see the end of the Old Covenant already happened in that century?

[@vfs148]

@@sishrac Yes. I believe the old covenant ended in 70AD. The old covenant saints' souls left the grave/hades/sheol at that time and have been with the Lord ever since. From that point on, no believer's soul sleeps in the grave (We shall not all sleep). Their soul is instantly "raptured" into the presence of the Lord. Again, I'm not saying that I am correct; I can most certainly be wrong. To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone who has ever suggested this interpretation, at least not that I could find. It's just what seems to make the most sense to me based on how I am interpreting the scripture.

[@sishrac]

@@vfs148 Well, two of us can see the correlation between Sheol being retired by AD 70 and the OC saints held there waiting to enter God's presence till then. I see that correlates with the 'day of judgment' mentioned in Rev 20: 11 - 15. Most Christians understand that there is one collective judgment day for all mankind sometime in the future, but seeing Scripture unfold what has happened from this angle tells me that AD 70 was just the beginning of God's judgment of the wicked and the rapture of the dead saints. This is ongoing, in my understanding, and that the New Covenant age, aka Christian age, has no end prophesied anywhere. You wrote, "It is only through physical death that the soul becomes immortal and incorruptible and can be in the presence of the Lord. Then the day will come when we receive our glorified body." Haven't the dead saints already received theirs? I'm just curious: Are you a Preterist, too, or leaning in that direction?