Discussing Magic in Fantasy: Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Berserk w/Trey The Explainer

[@G00lden]

I think Trey and Red would like Full Metal Alchemist. Literally the magic system is equivalent interchange driven.

[@lebezio7879]

or Hunter x Hunter

[@avaneesh3118]

fmab sucks

[@damage97]

"My favourite character is Tom Bombadil" absolute GIGACHAD

[@little_boot]

Carmines rant about why people dont walk into hedonistic nihilism if theyre rich and the other two are nodding along is one of the most picture perfect moments of why these dudes dedicate their lives to pop culture. Holy shit I dont even think he realizes what he exposes about himself 😭

[@jessecook4466]

Beserk is not grounded😂 it just seemed that way for the first 160 chapters

[@poursperfectpints]

Take a shot every time Carmine says "grounded".

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

2 shots? k

[@kitkat6959]

Preston is a plot and character guy. Makes sense he isn't into LotR which is more lore and history oriented

[@Godzilla00X]

Bro I'd kill for a podcast of Preston and red team reviewing berserk. It's the GOAT

[@joshuaswart8211]

Trey and Carmine discover the concept of hard magic and soft magic systems.

[@zygimantassilobritas6034]

TL;DW: Magic is bad and if we like something (which is totally magic) it's not actually magic. Like I absolutely love the content of all of you guys, but especially in this video a lot of your points just seem to be made out of some desire for contrarianism? The entire LOTR bit seems to be that way, where you seem to completely twist LOTR into a setting far more magical than it is (quoting Silmarillion which is the equivalent of Age of Heroes, Age of Dawn or arguably fall of Valyria and similar events, which have as notable of transformations of climate, continents being rent apart and civilizational shifts that often make no sense) while somehow claiming ASOIAF, which has far more absurd magical feats that we see, somehow has no magic so it's good. At least that's how it seems in this video. (Most LOTR magic, at least in the books is simply boosting or diminishing morale or an implied clash of wills, not much when it comes to overt fireballs or summoning or such, ASOIAF has shadow babies, people seeing the future, direct mind control, control of frost, all of Euron. And most of it even fits your own definition of magic more, as being unexplained powers that completely shift the balance and arguably remove certain threats from the plot.) Berserk, which you quote as having "good" magic system, also just has a ton of magic that requires no sacrifice and sometimes not even true effort to cast. None of you will probably see this and this should probably be a far bigger text wall with far more in depth explanations than it is, than a simple "feat" so to say comparison, but whatever.

[@joshpearson2928]

I don't think gods or magic take away from the tension of a story like Trey describes. You still don't want bad things to happen to the characters or traumas. And as is described as the driving force of tension in those kind of stories is that the "other side" is similarly unlimited in scope. I think limitless power actually plays an interesting role in stories like Harry Potter. Also in LOTR magic is largely absent and subtle unlike how Trey describes. Magic is more of a woven part of the world, not necessarily a drawn upon thing like in Harry Potter or Game of Thrones (not to trigger an "its all science" Preston reaction 😅). Gandalf can use magic because he's an angel, and the elves like Galadriel have these abilities from being in Valinor. My main criticism in "unlimited magic" stories is they hold back way too much. Harry Potter could feasibly do anything, but they only do like 5 spells most of the time. I want more. If magic is unlimited and has no rules or consequences for its use, then lets see what can be done.

[@joshhoffman5233]

I’ve literally imagined the battle of hogwarts where it wasn’t just the same spells we learned in book 4. Would’ve been a great occasion to show us how voldemort is in fact such a threat. Bc I wasn’t feeling it by that point. I’m like “why didn’t they stun his ass in the shrieking shack?” Bc the snake had to die otherwise even capturing voldemort is useless!? Voldemort’s magic in the duel w dumbledore wasn’t even anything interesting. He made that essence of dementor potion. Most feared wizard ever

[@GameofThronesPodcast]

Carmine came out of his hibernation to post this bout time 😁

[@ivanbluecool]

I like how berserk takes the god situation where it's both a concept and fuled by belief where people pray to these monsters and help in turn make the very monsters they are trying to destroy Same wirh the wishes coming in your darkest moment making you want to sacrifice anything and everything to gain more. I miss the mangaka very much but i love the chapters that came after as well.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

I need to sit down someday and watch a "Grifith did nothing wrong" video

[@ivanbluecool]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview oh those are funny sometimes. Or see the berserk outtakes they are hilarious

[@Mosqueetto]

​@@OfficialRedTeamReview comes down to they was willing to lose there life for Griffiths dream in battle so whats the difference in the sacrifice. Sort of like the Tywin "Whys it more hounorable to for a few to die at dinner instead of thousands dying in the field"

[@mra4521]

6:47 idk if anyone else brings it up in video or chat here, but I think it’s important to remember that JJRT lived through the part of history where there were actual Nazis who took over half a continent, genocided several people groups, and also bombed the hell out of the island JRRT lived on. It makes sense that there’s a whole team of guys in Middle Earth who are just evil and have to be violently taken down. No, I don’t think LOTRs is allegory, but I do think JRRT was pissed that it took so long for the self styled leaders (and a lot of the citizens) of the free world to take the overtly evil dudes with the skulls on their uniforms seriously, and that disillusionment and despair is present in LOTRS: The actual plot of Jackson’s movies is always “Sauron’s forces of Doom from Mordor are going to do bad things, but the main characters are preoccupied with their own petty bullshit. Will they get over themselves and actually team up to stop before it’s too late to stop Mordor?” I am guessing Peter didn’t make that central conflict up. There is also a reason Frodo is the ring bearer instead of Aragorn, and it’s the same reason half of mortals in the Fellowship are lowly Hobbits. Tolkien actually didn’t think as highly of nobility as many people accuse him of; I am told that in the books Faramir sings a very long epic poem about why Aragorn should be king based on his actions not his lineage. Do I think Tolkien conveyed all of this as best as he could have? No. I dislike the pure evil races as much as anyone else (except maybe well written vampires). All of the Neo-Nazis grifting off of Rings of Power is proof enough of that. I just reject the idea of having a bad guy team full of people who don’t actually have complicated reasons, or at least reasons worth caring about, for why they’re doing evil makes a story lesser by default. And I categorically reject the idea that it makes the story less realistic.

[@sharendavis9216]

Totally agree with everything. Even comparing ASOIAF and LOTR is just wrong. They’re both fantasy yes, but on completely other sides of the spectrum from completely different eras

[@mra4521]

@@sharendavis9216 thank you! Sometimes I think when people say: "I don't like JRRT because I don't like that there's an obviously evil bad guy team in the story who do evil because they can. That's emotionally unreal!" When what they are feeling on the inside is: "I prefer GRRM's writing style and protagonists to JRRT's, and so I understood the complexities of GRRM's stories more than JRRT's.", and I really wish they would just say this. I've tried reading both of their magnum opuses too many times, and failed. Not proud of this, but not ashamed of it anymore either. I just make a point to cite and quote the actual book readers whenever I talk about the books.

[@traviswright2648]

Also, that would just make the book way longer, tbh I think the story works nearly perfectly as is. Plus, the lore added by other games can work. As a shadow of war can demonstrate.

[@Tharnatos]

Tolkien stated he doesn't believe in pure evil, and the orcs aren't even pure evil.

[@adrianr.rosales8138]

You guys MUST read Joe Abercrombie The First Law is awesome, and even George is a fan. Plus, is finished

[@kennyd8632]

There's a ton of magic in Berserk just not in the Golden Age Arc really

[@tyrson4331]

I enjoy very much your discussions about ASOIAF, but I’m not sure you’re the best to talk about fantasy in general. There are series that explore the ideas you touch here. You guy would love Joe Abercrombies First Law. It’s so good and has a kinda ASOIAF feel. And it’s finished. And to talk about magic, Brandon Sanderson is the best example, not only his books but his ideas around magic.

[@loveonick1]

The KingsKiller Chronicle had a well thought magic system. The bad thing is that Patrick Roothfuss have not released the last book yet. It's been over a decade and we're still waiting. That's why I appreciate Brandon Sanderson's consistency

[@GodKingReiss]

What level of copium is needed to claim Berserk’s behelits and sacrifice aren’t technically a magic system? You literally transform into a shapeshifting demon or a living god depending on what year it is.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Not magic in the way we imagine it as you flick a wand and a chick leg appears.

[@mikehoffler4097]

If you don't like magic because you're more science-minded, then what's your take on quantum mechanics? There's nothing quite so close to arcane and eldritch as subatomic behavior.

[@nicodemusedwards6931]

2:26 To be fair it was his birthday party so… it’s not totally unreasonable.

[@diurtydantv8061]

J.K. Rowling never said Hermione is black. When people asked why a black woman was cast in the cursed child play she basically said "well I never said she wasn't black". I'm paraphrasing of course but you get the point.

[@Rex73777]

She did say her face was white. In the books.

[@MrHotSalsa]

She could've just said, "it's a play, deal with it" and all of that hubbub wouldn't have happened.

[@diurtydantv8061]

Yes she did

[@diurtydantv8061]

It probably still would've just not to the same extent

[@MrHotSalsa]

@diurtydantv8061 of course. Certain amount of people would've still cried over it but I don't it would've caused the insane discourse it created.

[@Gandalf-The-Gay]

It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.

[@ser_ryon_vine6392]

Not sure how much anime u watch Carmine, but would def be interested in listening to more anime related pods.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

I'm a weeb. If you check out the next podcast segment I upload you'll see how much of a weeb I am (it'll be a discussion on Star Wars Visions S2)

[@ser_ryon_vine6392]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview word.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

@@ser_ryon_vine6392 Btw if you use discord, i can send you an invite to our server if you'd like

[@ser_ryon_vine6392]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview yeah that’d be cool

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

@@ser_ryon_vine6392 Hit me up in the DMs on insta, twitter or fb if u got it

[@yousillyenglishknnniigit8205]

Have you guys read Brandon Sanderson books? Mistborn and Stormlight Archive? Mistborn magic system is quite interesting. Some people can "ingest" metals to gain specific powers

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Thats actually super interesting

[@Knives7777]

​@@OfficialRedTeamReview Carmine YOU GOTTA CHECK it out please i beg. You will not regret it. Each planet in Sanderson's cosmere has a different magic system and has their own "gods" as the source of each magic and these beings are bound by a lot of rules Mistborn is metals Stormlight Archives - uses different forms of light taken in as breaths to do various different things some people can fly others create illusions some can see the future by bonding to little creatures there are about 10 branches of this system on this same world another race people use songs and sounds in specific harmonics to create resonance with light and uses it in a very different way. Its crazy Warbreaker- has Monochromatic breath where colors are used to animate objects Elantris - is a little technical but imagine if you could program different effects and tolerances between two sources of magic to give hundreds of different effects from healing to teleportation to flight to super strength

[@Knives7777]

Calling it right now Carmine's favorite Character will be Odium, (Ruin, Rashek and Wit maybe close possibilities)

[@yousillyenglishknnniigit8205]

@@Knives7777 He will enjoy Wit for sure

[@Knives7777]

​@@yousillyenglishknnniigit8205 I hope he gives it a try Preston will probably hate it.

[@traviswright2648]

But the orcs didnt die out. Saurman literally rashacks the sire with orcs. Geroges criticism of LORT is redundant and false. 😊

[@joshuaswart8211]

That happens in the third book. No-one has ever claimed that the orca all died in the middle of the book. You’ve created a strawman.

[@joshhoffman5233]

In Harry Potter anything works with magic except with combat where she dropped the ball imo. I wasn’t even scared of voldemort by the end. Just another green death laser shooter. The battle of hogwarts would’ve been a perfect time to add more battle magic. Instead, it’s like a series of wizard duels ugh.

[@anthastoned]

This is probably a dumb question but I can’t figure it out, how does one become a KZbin member?

[@aagretsky]

I like Tom Bombadil...😥

[@jamesroe8934]

If preston wont read berserk you should just review it on your channel, but i would love you both discussing it

[@hydrakn]

I would love a Berserk chapter by chapter review from you and Preston, even if Preston shit on it the whole time I would never miss it llol

[@Rakonax]

You still have Schierke and the whole alchemy inspired magic system in berserk

[@Paskyboo]

The whole JK Rowling conversation is super disingenuous and gross tbh

[@dookieshoe2905]

I guess he would hate the Cosmere or Malazan if he hates gods interfering with the world

[@iron_captain]

Trey will truely get cancelled by the lotr fandom

[@phantomjoker5]

wooooo, biggest fan of LotR though

[@tysonmindham2986]

Best villain ever is Frank Booth.

[@dangin8811]

these are literal NPC takes, no offense. "Oh the orcs are just evil"

[@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506]

Yeah. Its kinda the point.

[@dangin8811]

@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 what's kinda the point?

[@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506]

@@dangin8811 that the orcs are evil

[@zygimantassilobritas6034]

I would say the more NPC take is the constant "Wow it should be more grounded" and "I like things when they are more realistic" only to then get pikachu faced that some people do see it in a grounded and serious way. Which is probably the most surprising part of this, considering these three in so many other cases seem like people with actual ability to analyze and understand media.

[@joshhoffman5233]

One thing about JK though, she didn’t retcon dumbledore being gay. It was there the whole time. I know bc I caught it. Her battle magic though… that could use a retcon

[@benhayward2597]

Pretty sure the Walmart family are off spending money on European football teams

[@ryanrogers2224]

You cannot put rules to magic because it’s magic. It’s definition is literally doing the impossible, magic. Everytime you have a magic spell of doom there’s always another even more power spell of doom. Or prophecy or some rune of an unknown god. It’s why Zelda and Star Wars suck ass. People literally have future sight magic and get dunked on constantly by evil.

[@kennybell5108]

Wait no way is Hermione black now!?

[@ZL_cloud]

Berserk's LITERAL magic system is easily the worst aspect of the manga. It is honestly one of its key weaknesses and very generic. Now if you consider the general supernatural elements "magic" then that's different. The Behelit, Apostle system, Eclipse, Lost Children, Great Roar of the Astral World, Corridor of Dreams, Egg of Perfect World, Moonlight Child, ect. are all excellently executed and fairly unique. I don't equate any of that to magic and I don't believe anyone else would since they fit more the supernatural/religion set of world building. The Cthlulu stuff is okay and the Berserker Armor is when there starts to be problems, but frankly the regular old magic stuff is written generically and boringly. Now the four angels might be able to clean up the current magic system as is, but it is currently written in a very flimsy, random, and unsatisfied way. Also, it seems that all of your imaginations have self induced limitations. No need to be mentally constrained, as it is too far to state with confidence Game of Thrones as a futuristic setting makes any more logical sense than Lord of the Rings or Berserk. There is so much ridiculous rules in Game of Thrones, but more importantly, who is to say what future rules would exist in a super technological future?

[@Sora744]

16:06 i dont know what preston means by chick fil a being horible and a bad cause. Like what does chick fil a do thats so bad? I know the company is openly christian, meaning all their employees are garenteed sunday off, but they dont do anything remotely evil, other than being a fast food chain. Its not like they dont let gay people work at chick fil a or anything

[@little_boot]

Dude is very generic progressive, that there is a Christian company itself is sacrilege to the state.

[@keagancollins3243]

They donate to numerous anti-lgbt organizations. You spend money at chick fil a you are indirectly funding these groups.

[@Thebluishbear]

Bro for real compared JK Rowling who said there was only 2 genders to HP Lovecraft an actually racist 😂😂😂