Could This Messy and Overcrowded Storyline Prevent George from Finishing Winds of Winter?

Preston and I discuss the overcrowding and messy plotline that we'll be seeing in Winds of Winter and how it may play out.
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▬ Information ▬
House of the Dragon is an American fantasy drama television series created by George R. R. Martin and Ryan J. Condal for HBO. It is a prequel to the television series Game of Thrones and is based on Martin's 2018 novel Fire & Blood. Set two hundred years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the beginning of the end of House Targaryen, the events leading up to the Targaryen civil war, known as the "Dance of the Dragons", and the war itself. The main contenders are Houses Targaryen, Hightower, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Velaryon.
Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil conflict among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter, the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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[@ivanbluecool]

Honestly so many single characters can change up every storyline just by arriving which I think is great for George to have that option. The sand snakes going to kings landing are basically a check offs gun where they can either be spies or get rid of people. Aeran waters I think his name was can literally join anyone and it makes sense. Wait for aegon or dany to revive the Targarean dynasty. Wait for stannis to show his loyalty or be a pirate himself and never return. Example of this natural storytelling growth We had Ned betrayed an job cuts off the head of the guy who did it. Jon was already at the wall so this storyline naturally found its way in. This is honestly what I like best about George's writing. Even he can be surprised by how the story goes

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

True!

[@ivanbluecool]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview it makes winds more exciting that George himself is having to iron out the story since it has grown so much we got a lot of side characters with questionable loyalties that make for some exciting "twists" that could be seen miles away. I'd bring up more but I wanna hear the video first

[@miguelsanchez825]

I adore this too! I feel like there are many possibilities and all of them have a merit and could feel organic, that is a big reason is so funny to theorize in this series

[@manomancan]

Good point! And ah, Anton Check-off, the lesser-known Westerosi playwright.

[@nikagogibedashvili6476]

@@manomancan 😂😂😂😂 I barely survived this joke. Cheers

[@kongming7684]

Any small council scene between Mace Tyrell, Harys Swift, Qyburn and Nymeria Sand will turn Winds to a comedy.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Perfect, we could use more comedy. By the way, KZbin has been giving me trouble about uploading this full podcast to memberships. After the 5th upload it should've gone through, check it now.

[@G_Kchrst]

Yet Mace Tyrell is no funny in the books. Actually none of these is aside from Harys Swift.

[@Longshanks1690]

Everyone - rightly - criticises the rushed ending of S6 and the way everything is just pushed to get to its right place - Cersei is the undisputed Queen, don’t question it. The slavers have been defeated and Dany is sailing west, don’t question it. Jon is universally proclaimed as King in the North, don’t question it. Bran has made it south of the Wall, don’t question it. Arya manages to get her revenge and clean up the mess of House Frey with basically no repercussions, don’t question it. But honestly? When you look at the absolute tangled web of Christmas lights you just pulled from the box that are the many, MANY interwoven plot lines of ASOIAF at the end of ADWD, it’s really easy to see why they chose the simple answers and hoped no one would notice. Even with more seasons and a passionate writing crew, you’d still have to simplify things a LOT to get a season out once every 1-2 years. It is an absolute mess and on the one hand, it makes ASOIAF so special as it allows us to theorise endlessly years after the fact without feeling like we’ve turned over every stone… but also we’ve been waiting a decade because there’s no way to resolve it all satisfactorily. It’s a paradox inside an enigma inside a Meereenese knot.

[@MiddleEarthGirl75]

I like to think of the tv series from season 6 onward as more of a type of fanfiction. My hope is the books will go a far different direction with the characters. That Jamie's redemption arc will play out to completion. Tyrion won't be dumbed down and will be really impactful. Same with Littefinger and Varys. Cersei won't just be drinking wine and looking out windows. Euron won't be a dumb thug. I don't just want the books out to see the end of the story. I want them to erase what I had to watch happen to incredibly interesting characters in the show.

[@paulcato3434]

The Small Council grows smaller by the day.

[@lathanandrews417]

Not small enough.

[@YoutubeStandardLicense]

Winds of Winter is like Waiting for Godot. Preston is Vladimir (Didi) and Carmine is Estragon (Gogo). All they do is engage in a variety of discussions and encounters while awaiting the titular Godot, (TWoW) who never arrives :D

[@GodKingReiss]

All the possible ways the King’s Landing plot can continuously cascade into more and more plots has me crossing my fingers that Aegon will hit the city hard and fast and nip every single one of these subplots in the bud.

[@aaronginsberg4993]

I sent this to Preston for the fanfic but the obvious answer is for Cersei and Tommen to flee KL immediately after Kevan's death. It lets Tyrell and Tarly to go over to Aegon without a fight. The factor that isn't discussed here is that the Faith controls the city and is not pro-Tommen. There's a Tarly army at the gates that seems to be protecting Margaery's life. That's the military situation on the ground in the ADWD epilogue. There are no Lannister forces available nearby to support Tommen's claim. Jaime's army is at Pennytree when he goes missing which is north of Harrenhal. There's nothing stopping the Tyrells from defecting to Aegon. Particularly, if Septa Lemore can persuade the High Sparrow to back Aegon's claim. Apart from Cersei and Qyburn, who in and around KL would even try to stop them? Try to marry Margaery to Aegon. Why not? Red Ronnet wants to attack Jon Con but the Tyrells don't have a reason to hate him. Why send the Tarly army out? That's not their MO. And anyway, you need Aegon to enter KL to a cheering crowd. Not by breaching the walls. We have a house of the undying vision to fulfill.

[@duckling3615]

Because the Aegon cause is stupid on the outside. The Golden Company has tried what it is doing now so many times. Why would it matter now? The Tyrells seem secured in their position and already have the throne. Why try switching to another monarch when Aegon will be far more challenging to control than Tommen? The Tyrells might switch but that would only be once they have already been defeated or the Lannisters fuck them over.

[@aaronginsberg4993]

@@duckling3615 If Dorne declares for Aegon, the Reach faces a Dornish invasion on top of the Ironborn invasion they're already struggling with. That doesn't even get into what happens if Cersei is convicted and Tommen is declared an abomination born of incest by the High Sparrow. The Lannisters are broke and lack a strong leader. The Aegon cause has money, soldiers and no taint of bastardry.

[@dustingaethje1332]

​@@aaronginsberg4993Dude if Dorne declares for Aegon Arianne will marry Aegon. Who's Margaery supposed to marry then, JonCon? 😂

[@aaronabarca4919]

​@@dustingaethje1332Robin Arryn, making him the King of Mountains and Vale, the Trident and the Reach😂😂😂

[@CharlesFreck]

@@aaronginsberg4993 Don't forget at the start of Winds of Winter, Euron is about the conduct a huge magical ritual that will probably destroy almost the entire Reach fleet and Oldtown and cripple the Maesters, assuming it goes Euron's way. So even minus Dorne getting involved, The Reach just won't have the resources to fight Aegon. Worst case for Aegon, The Reach retreats to Highgarden, abandons the Game of Thrones, and is stuck fighting the Ironborn for the next few years. Best case, they suffer such a horrific defeat, they pledge immediate loyalty to Aegon in the hopes they can get help fighting of the Ironborn. People always forget Euron is about to throw a giant spanner in the works.

[@Longshanks1690]

There was a writing tip I saw once where if you’re at a tough spot and you don’t know how to resolve an issue, you write a temporary placeholder like “Then the hero escaped in a clever and miraculous way” then come back to it later when you’ve written the parts you actually know you want to write. At this point I’d accept a Winds chock full of those kinds of placeholders, I just wanna know how the damn thing ends. 😩

[@mns2137]

But those events should be at least somehow connected. Its not really a good tip.

[@Longshanks1690]

@@mns2137 In the final draft, sure. The point being that you shouldn’t be stressing over how to complete the next line if you know the next ten paragraphs will flow better.

[@eric2500]

No. this is a FIRST RATE STORYTELLER. You have it exactly backwards. This is world full of dazzling characters and places. How he gets us there is the point.

[@Longshanks1690]

@@eric2500 First rate storytellers finish their stories on schedule.

[@pcharl01]

Is not that how D&D finished the series?

[@charlinethom1624]

I don't think the dance of dragons will be between Aegon and Dany, but rather Euron who is out on trying get his hands on one of Dany's Dragons. GRRM himself even said that second dance of dragons dosen't have to necessarily mean Dany's invasion. The thing between Dany and Young Griff will likely venture more into the realm of a 6th Blackfrye Rebellion, if at all you never know with George he probably has a lot of surprises in store for us in Winds, that is if he ever releases it ofc.

[@MJAce85]

How can someone not understand the advantages of being on the Small Council? Power and prestige, kickbacks, influence, the salary......

[@fleshbhones]

I like Carmine's idea about calling Jaime back to be Regent. After burning the letter they can't just have Cersei send another letter begging him to come back and him just go back on all his growth. Who knows how the Stoneheart thing will change him though, maybe he regresses after going through that trauma.

[@rosstemby1347]

Man RTR, now how many ults ya gunna keep bruv? :)

[@efecaktl5432]

Heres my idea for the reagancy: -Cersei will win her trial but Tyrells will force a reagancy of seven on to her to limit her powers. -members will all represent an aspect of the seven. -they will die one by one during winds representing fall of the faith and the old order and making the story less hectic. -members will be: 1-Father [Jaimie Lannister] 2-Mother [Cersei Lannister] 3-Warrior [Randyll Tarly] 4-Maiden [Nymeria Sand] 5-Smith [Mace Tyrell] 6-Crone [Jenna Lannister] 7-Stranger [Qyburn]

[@ZoomReverseFlash]

Why is Preston convinced the suggested second dance of the dragons will be a Targaryen civil war? There were plenty before the current day story, but they weren't called dance of the dragons. A second dance of the dragons only implies a second set of battles between dragonriders. That doesn't necessary mean the dragonrider is Aegon.

[@fazediamond5671]

Could be aegon vs victarion vs dany

[@CharlesFreck]

@@fazediamond5671 Victarion is absolutely, 100%, not getting a dragon. He's a pawn for Euron. And Aegon getting a dragon would be, convoluted, until towards the story. Euron seems likely to get a dragon. I think Quentin isn't actually done and will have a dragon for a while. Euron, Dany, Quentin. Quentin dies/loses dragon at some point to fAegon after returning to Westeros ahead of Dany. That would be probably the most sensical.

[@fazediamond5671]

@@CharlesFreck ✅

[@countbalerionofhousetatter2624]

100 books, 100 seasons!

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

HUNDRED YEAAAAARSSSSSAAAAA

[@narbrahmin21anon4]

In 2097, we will have George RRRRRRRRRR Martin, Fourth of his Name, ready with "Winds of the Dream of a Clash of Swords."

[@Mj_Jetson]

The trouble with Jaime as regent is that he's been missing for a month... how would they contact him? Would he turn up again, and be able to get back to King's Landing in a reasonable time frame? Would have to plot out what happens to Jaime with the Brotherhood before determining if he could be available to serve as regent, and that's no easy feat - the Jaime/Brienne stories are arguably much harder to figure out than the King's Landing stuff, since there's a lot of super important messy thematic stuff to deal with.

[@sgauden02]

George is probably going to kill off a bunch of characters in Winds Of Winter.

[@jamesgrimaldi8557]

winter is coming

[@emarti3853]

The long list of regents would help solidfy Aegon's rule because there would be so many different lords from various areas that could declare him king. This would quickly place him as "undisputed" king by the time danearys arrives

[@engineerforthefuture8593]

The nice thing is that George told that woman about this problem years ago, and has since given an update that he finally finished up some Cersei chapters that had been giving him a lot of trouble, so he has probably already fixed the problem.

[@Mj_Jetson]

The trouble with Mace doing something smart and appeasing the Lannisters is that's just not his character. He's the strategic "genius" who thinks Tommen declaring Margaery innocent will make that problem go away. His instinct is to fill as many appointments as possible with family members. His current advisors would be Margaery, who HATES Cersei and is probably afraid to go on trial so she would be in favor of not doing political compromises; Harys Swyft, who is generally weak-willed and is afraid to contradict Mace, lest he get assassinated and replaced with Garth Tyrell; and Randyll Tarly, who probably thinks that political compromises make you weak and not manly.

[@FieryReborn]

He can go the D&D route and forget about consequences

[@Scott100W]

My best guess is Ares Oakheart, keeping him alive gives more options for the next book concerning Cersei, her trial and the need to have Robert Strong on the KG

[@MiddleEarthGirl75]

So if Bran really does become King of Westeros in the books, because of his age, will we see another 'Counsel of Regents' situation?

[@tiagotimoteo4004]

Probably a council of mind-controlled regents.

[@Mj_Jetson]

The trouble with putting a competent ruler like Genna in charge is that Varys would just assassinate her? I think Genna's gotta stay alive a while longer.... we know too much about the Lannister family tree for it not to be relevant - there's gotta be a Lannister Civil War at some point? Genna is pretty low in succession, but super politically competent - a perfect recipe for a messy contentious Lannister Civil War.

[@CharlesFreck]

Where is Varys? He's not in King's Landing anymore. It's not super specific, but basically, the story tells us subtly that all of the secret identities we know he has (such as the jailer) have suddenly stopped showing up for work and not been seen for a while. Seems like Varys realised things in King's Landing were getting a bit hot and is either in hiding or gone. Unless he's in the walls, I'm not sure he actually has the power to assassinate Genna anymore. Not sure why he left, but he might be out of KL trying to get some secret support together for Aegon. Cause Aegon needs support, the Golden Company is good, but will get crushed if they don't get some Lords on Aegon's side. They need food and soldiers.

[@Mj_Jetson]

@@CharlesFreck I think he'd stay in the walls, wouldn't he? Assassinate anyone who was too competent, and be there to help Aegon's forces sneak into the Red Keep by way of the secret passages, so that they take the castle's defenders unawares. He's not too useful in getting lords on Aegon's side, unless its by sending ravens and instructing his agents to convince their lords they serve to join Aegon - both of which he can do most effectively from King's Landing (the biggest army around is in King's Landing; I think Varys' most important goal at the moment is to convince Randyll Tarly to join Aegon.)

[@lordinvictus793]

So I have a few questions on this. When is Aegon supposed to show up? End of the book? Middle of the book? How long will Tommen and Myrcella live? Tommen will likely die by Dornish? Myrcella is in Dornish custody. When does Aegon defeat Tyrell's armies? Do Tarly and other Reach vassals defect to Aegon? Rowan? How does this affect the political situation in KL? Is Cersei still alive by the time Aegon arrives? If so, is she free, in someone's custody? What exactly is Cersei going to do-she has no allies(barring maybe Qyburn), and the Faith and Tyrells will not stand for her to regain any authority.

[@fazediamond5671]

Aegon should be there by the middle

[@dustingaethje1332]

Qyburn's only true ally is Qyburn

[@lordinvictus793]

@@dustingaethje1332 Cersei is his patron. He owes his status to her.

[@vitormattos5368]

I mean, as of Mercy chapter Cersei is still queen 1 month after Kevan's death, and the Golden Company will have to wait a bit in Storm's End, waiting for new supporters, for Yronwood's host and for JonCon to heal after losing his hand. We have some time to make KL situation decline even more.

[@darksaint0124]

Mercy is a sample chapter and George famously always changes those when we get to a finished book. The question isn't IF George has rewritten it, but how many times he has done so.

[@Mj_Jetson]

ADwD epilogue and Mercy are about 1 month apart... its maybe 2 weeks to travel from KL to Braavos? Plus or minus favorable winds and rough seas... So by the time of Mercy, there's an excellent chance that Tommen's government has collapsed but the news just hasn't reached Braavos yet. Though I do think JonCon might pull a Renly-strategy and march north very slowly... let a moon of madness play out, where the sparrows and maybe some petty monarchs kill each other... perhaps send an elite force ahead to get control of the Red Keep... then when the city is exhausted, march in to cheering crowds; bring a bunch of free food from the kingswood to get the smallfolk on your side, maybe throw a Roman Triumph parade with the captured moon of madness monarchs, plus some fun animals like elephants and a mummer's dragon?

[@mikecarroll3538]

To me the Dorne conspiracy and the Iron Born stuff is what has made the story so unwieldy, despite how interesting some of the plot points may be, these are stories that were just introduced in Feast, and not all of it is needed in how much detail has gone into it

[@lordinvictus793]

The Lannisters are a spent force-so if the Tyrells took the regency they'd be unable to do much more than complain.

[@dfolz1101]

Can we appreciate that the last book came out 12 years ago and there's still so much to talk about. I'm kind of in the camp that we're never get Winds but obviously I hope I'm wrong.

[@Hochspitz]

These discussions are so much fun. So with so many players and the shenanigans in Kingslanding, are any of bothered by what Littlefinger is up to?

[@jewsco]

The easiest way to work around it is to have jenna Lannister already on her way to kingslanding to see the trial

[@froggy_kamado591]

If only the book was ever coming out.

[@PhilHibbs]

Qyburn isn’t a Lannister, he’s a Martel.

[@jay-t1030]

A Dream of Spring is a myth a this point...

[@TheCbot88]

What Lannisters? There’s only Cersei left. 😂

[@fazediamond5671]

Lancel

[@Daniel-ug4pu]

​@fazediamond5671 lancel turned and told the high sparrow about sleeping with cer say so he's not on team lion

[@hopebringer2348]

No

[@lordmelvin9310]

Genna, Daven, Jaime, Cerenna, Myrielle, Damon and Ella, Damion, Luceon, Lanna, and more than a dozen unnamed ones still.

[@umwha]

Random though regarding Stoneheart. There’s much speculation about what she wants. Revenge on the freys is one thing. Another was that she is looking for Jeyne westerling to obtain Robb’s baby when it’s born. (Was this inprestons fan fiction?) . But here’s something that everybody seems to have missed. Arya has just publicly been married in Winterfell. That is not a secret. Why hasn’t the BWB heard that Arya has just married, and why isn’t Stoneheart making a B-line to Winterfell? Jaime knows it right? Maybe Jaime will share this information to Stoneheart during his trial ? Maybe that’s how he gets out. The Lannisters rule Winterfell (the Boltons were appointed by the Lannisters) so Jaime could agree that he will use his power to help the BWB enter Winterfell to retrieve Arya. Yeah! It’ll be that during Jaimes captivity by Stoneheart, he gets summons to come and act as hand for Cerseis trial. Stoneheart realizes that she needs to allow Jaime to be appointed hand, so that he has power enough to control the Winterfell situation and retrieve Arya. So she lets him go to become hand, under oath.

[@CharlesFreck]

BWB isn't stupid, and neither is most of the North. I don't think most of them actually think Jeyne Pool is Arya. I think they're kind of aware that it's not true. The Boltons are fools, they think they're so smart and clever and in control, but actually, everyone around them is scheming against them, they're about to lose Winterfell. They're a threat, but not a dominant force. I think the BWB know Clegane took Arya, and I think they figure they'd find out if Clegane was in Winterfell. No Hound, no Arya. Besides, Arya knew Riverrun was where she should go, not Winterfell, so she wouldn't have gone to Winterfell alone. I think the BWB and Lady Stoneheart know that Arya in Winterfell is a fake, or atleast are waiting for confirmation before acting on it. It's also possible that Stoneheart no longer cares, and is purely an undead monster bent of revenge and murder.

[@Mj_Jetson]

How about this (um, sorry its a little long): Mace Tyrell declares Margaery innocent (as he wanted to do in the ADwD epilogue; Kevan is no longer there to call it a dumb idea), and makes her regent. Margaery is a legal adult in Westeros (barely) and is family to Tommen (sort of). Cersei leverages hos controversial her appointment is, preparing for her bid for power (as stated in the ADwD epilogue, a lot of people think Margaery is guilty. plus her appointment resembles a Tyrell coup, a lot like the Lannister coup after Robert died.) The Lannisters have a hissy fit, but Mace either disregards it (Mace doesn't appreciate how guilty he looks in their eyes, or isn't worried as he has hostages and the nearest Lannister army is leaderless and snowbound in the Riverlands) or Mace appeases Genna by making her family the heirs to Darry or the Twins. The Sparrows have a hissy fit, forcing the Tyrells to let Margaery's trial go forward. Cersei ends up cleared of all charges. Margaery ends up sorta guilty (undermining her power base), but remains regent. Mace and Randyll both leave with their armies to attack JonCon. Margaery's powerbase at the Red Keep is weak, so Cersei is able to overthrow her in a coup, possibly with Illyrio Mopatis' "help" (Illyrio plans to come to Westeros, and in the ADwD epilogue, Harys Swyft is told to write to the magisters of Pentos for money, so there's an opening for Illyrio to join the King's Landing plot.) Mace and Randyll face JonCon in battle. Randyll is really mad at Mace (Mace taking credit for Randyll's hard work; unprecedented ironborn attack in the Reach; stupid Tyrell women mucking with power; the Tyrells receiving House Florent's lands instead of Randyll, whose wife is a Florent) so Randyll switches sides and attacks Mace, wiping up his army in a crushing victory. Illyrio ensures that Cersei's reign is super brutal, cracking down on the Sparrows (like Maegor the Cruel; after she's done all the hard work of killing most of them, Aegon can mercifully offer pardons like Jaehaerys the Conciliator). Margaery is killed. As JonCon's army approaches from the Stormlands, Illyrio backstabs Cersei and does a coup against her, but with Robert Strong's help, she escapes (paralleling Rhaenyra's flight at the start of the Moon of Madness after Margaery/Helaena was killed). Tommen is captured and executed, his death and feline second life paralleling that of Rhaegar and Elia's daughter Rhaenys and her kitten Balerion.

[@Mj_Jetson]

here's my lovely litany of delightful quotes that would support this... Mace wants to cancel Margaery's trial; Kevan thinks that's a stupid idea and a lot of people think Margaery is guilty: Tyrell did not let him finish. "These charges against my daughter are filthy lies. I ask again, why must we play out this mummer's farce? Have King Tommen declare my daughter innocent, ser, and put an end to the foolishness here and now." Do that, and the whispers will follow Margaery the rest of her life. "No man doubts your daughter's innocence, my lord," Ser Kevan lied, "but His High Holiness insists upon a trial." (Epilogue ADwD) Illyrio plans on returning to Westeros: "Good fortune," Illyrio called after them. "Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for his wedding. I will rejoin you in Westeros. That I swear, by my sweet Serra's hands." (Tyrion III ADwD) Harys Swyft will be asking Illyrio for money help: "The magisters of Pentos have been known to lend money as well," said Ser Kevan. "Try them." (Epilogue ADwD) The Tyrells were far more richly rewarded after the Blackwater than the Tarlys: Highgarden reaped the richest harvest. Tyrion eyed Mace Tyrell's broad belly and thought, He has a prodigious appetite, this one. Tyrell demanded the lands and castles of Lord Alester Florent, his own bannerman.... Lesser tracts were granted to Lord Rowan, and set aside for Lord Tarly (Tyrion III ASoS) Tarly did all the work in the battles, not Mace: Tyrell's reputation rested on one indecisive victory over Robert Baratheon at Ashford, in a battle largely won by Lord Tarly's van before the main host had even arrived. (Tyrion III ASoS)

[@tomswiftyphilo2504]

the small council have temporary or permanent jurisdictions. For example, a king could say to the master of ships: "go raise a fleet" and then suddenly 100ks of gold are passing throgh their fingers and lots of patronage positions at their disposal. The analog isn't a congressperson but rather a Robert Moses type figure.

[@OneOnOne1162]

I still don't think Kevan is the person George regrets killing. George HAS to have known that killing Kevan would cause big upheavals. I mean, that was the point. Both in the sense that that's why it was shocking to the audience and Varys states that as his motivation. I'd find it really odd that George would write himself into a corner that way. It's not impossible, but it seems a bit short-sighted on his part if true. If I had to pick, I think it MAY be Pycelle. Pycelle's death is not given nearly the same attention as Kevan's, but he was a Lannister supporter. Arguably the most loyal Lannister supporter out there. And I think Cersei is going to need someone on the small council in order to get out of her bind. And I think what George has run into is that Cersei needs someone like that, but doesn't have one. And I think Qyburn will be ousted, whereas Pycelle couldn't really have been without pissing off the citadel, I think.

[@chrisfoye1574]

Alright Preston you win this round..Legalistically is a word 👏

[@MaesterGreen]

I feel like fAegon and Arianne will take King's Landing with the help of Aurane Waters. But before they go Aurane will bring Edric Storm from Lys, since Varys sent him gifts on his birthday. Aurane and Edric will be given the names of their father and titles. The Merryweathers have been making their plays in KL and I assume Margaery will try to seduce fAegon but he will wish to take a second wife and he will want it to be Daenerys and of course one of her dragons. Aurane Velaryon will marry Marcella. The High Septon will lose his hold on the people when he realizes the people are amazed by Aegon Targaryen and his silver hair and Valyrion features. His words will die like The Shepherd's until he meets with Varys and they come to an argument. If Not this then Arianne will want independence. fAegon will gift it to her and rule the Six Kingdoms. While Daenerys will want them all. OR find an alliance in Dorne. Cersei will be killed, as for Tommen 🤔🤔🤔 idk that's as far as I've gotten.

[@OneOnOne1162]

4:05 - I mean, they are huge and powerful positions. It seems to me for two main reasons. 1. Advisory roles should not be dismissed. In politics having the right person's ear is extremely powerful because then you can directly persuade that powerful person of things and so steer their actions. 2. It's clear that each council member is also appointed to a specific position like master of coin, master of ships, etc. These positions clearly have some sort of responsibilities and authority themselves. We don't know all the specifics but, for example, it seems that the master of coin takes care of the finances of the crown, makes sure that groups like the gold cloaks are paid, etc. This is extremely powerful both because it can easily be abused (siphoning money like Littlefinger seems to have done) and because often people will "follow the man who pays them." The master of ships presumably has a similar degree of authority over the royal fleet. The Grand Maester presumably sends messages back to the citadel and thereby influences their position towards the crown, etc. So I actually think it's quite clear why these positions are so powerful, even if the specifics aren't always clear.

[@PBRStreetgang]

There are so many plots within plots / stories within stories and too many POV characters still alive that I really can't conceive how one person could possibly wrap it all up. Sweetrobin's Fan Fic is really the only way we're going to have resolution in the main ass-wyfe series.

[@jonathangeider7022]

Small counsel is effectively the King's cabinet but with no checks and balances, there isn't any oversight. So they are not only advisors but it's members also have authority over their respective areas (master of coin has control of tax collectors and lenders, master of laws has control over law enforcement and confessors, etc., master of ships has control over the navy but also ports)

[@evelynvongizycki1017]

But isn’t Jamie falling into a trap with Brianne?

[@careymcentire4726]

I didn't know that pkomone was made of foil

[@_addison4772]

Tyrells could name a Lannister regent that they feel that they can control, someone weak

[@phil7121]

GRMM should tweet that he's excited to announce that The Winds of Winter: Part 1 will be released this November... with parts 2 and 3 coming in 2027 and 2031

[@thewatcher2538]

can't wait for the member exclusive when it drops

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

I uploaded it earlier today and KZbin keeps denying me from making it memberships. Let me re-try

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

@@perfumedmanatee6235 wait what> what do you mean?

[@jayse324]

@@OfficialRedTeamReviewsome of the audio clips at around 7:20 are really messed up ish and sound like there is water pouring over someone.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

@@jayse324 Really? I legit don't hear it. Preston's housekeeper was vacuuming but thats about it

[@baswar]

I find it curious about the desire for small council too - maybe i am just mixing up the show and the books but i do remember some being dismissive of the master of coin. Like people don't fear littlefinger because hes only the treasurer. But then he is the only one with a defined role and state resources obviously the kingdoms treasury. That should be the most coveted position after hand of the king. Like master of coin and HofK are the only postions i get why you'd want them. Maybe also master of ships/any military linked position but otherwise all the other positions that are named are really like vague with no mention budget or resources so are just advisers

[@umwha]

I like the idea of Jaime being brought in for Cerseis trial. But I feel like his plot with Stoneheart will take up that time. Maybe the elegant solution is to combined the plots. As in, Jaime is captured and put on trial by Stoneheart. Then Jaime receive summons to act as hand. Jaime persuades Stoneheart that if he’s let go, he will bring her Cersei, the real villain, to be executed in his place. Stoneheart let’s him go, keeping Brienne as hostage. Jaime then goes to kings landing to observe Cerseis trial. Cersei either lives or Jaime helps her escape. Jaime leads her to stone heart as his oath is fulfilled, and he exchanges Cersei for Brienne.

[@benhuether5474]

No, it’s because this volume of the series will feature more elements of magic and the unknown than any other book in the series. George has stated in the past that writing scenes with magic is very hard; especially when it’s from the POV’s of characters who don’t believe in magic. It takes effort to properly convey the feelings awe, wonder, and fear of the unknown in this universe he has created. We already know that George has completed the Tyrion chapters last year and that’s because he’s said Tyrion is the easiest character for him to write; a “go with the flow” type of character. But other POV characters who are more complex and skeptical will be far more hard to write in scenes involving magic and the unknown.

[@dontnerfmebro8052]

...has there ever BEEN a woman as regent that wasnt a dowager queen?

[@lordmelvin9310]

Besides Jeyne Arryn? No.

[@StefenVincent]

Genna Lannister is going to die with her husband at riverrun. The brotherhood has already infiltrated the castle.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Possible...

[@mra4521]

11:23 Or we could gather a bunch of characters in King’s Landing that everyone likes for the 1-2 Thanos Snap of Tyrion ringing the bells on Jon Con, and then Jaime failing to stop Cersei and the wildfire.

[@MrBell-iq3sm]

Now that I'm older, I must say that I hate how quickly some of the conflicts in ASOIF unravel. Many key issues shouldn't have been a problem, at least not to the extent presented. All the major houses should have more than enough members. The Kingdom shouldn't have been ruined after one year of war. The Iron Bank makes little sense, both in terms of how they are treated and how way they act. One last harvest should mean nothing when winters and summers last for years, even decades. ...

[@TenebraeXVII]

The Small Council often have a huge amount of authority even if there's an attentive king because they have the power to make actual defacto policy in the name of the King and have it enforced unless the king finds out and vetos it specifically. Between the members, there's literally too much going on spread out among too wide a field of disciplines for the king to handle all policies personally. The small council are less like congressmen and more like cabinet secretaries or ministers, or the heads of federal agencies who can implement a lot of sweeping regulations on their own initiative and no congressional approval.

[@mtrunkello]

I still think the character George regret killing is Hodor. He is not dead in the books but they confirmed his death is something that came from Martin himself in the show. You know the whole hold the door thing pretty much sealed his destiny. What if George wanted to use Hodor as an avatar for Bran in the longrun?

[@carlogiurizzato2441]

nonsense

[@CharlesFreck]

Yeah, that might be it. He might have given too much away in the show. The corner might not be in the books, but the final seasons. Maybe he knows he's gotta kill Hodor off, but realises that it puts Bran in a much more difficult spot narratively, and doesn't want him going full tree wizard yet like in the show. He might be struggling to have Bran exist in the story, rather then showing up, spouting of a chapter of exposition to Jon, and then disappearing forever, appearing only in brief background mentions.

[@mtrunkello]

@@CharlesFreck imagine Hodor, an over 7 feet tall giant with the knowledge of Bran who could propably learn how to fight from the best knights in the seven kingdom through the weirwoodnet being the avatar of the 3 eyed raven clad in full plate armor. It would be cool. Noone was powerful enough to posess a human body before Bran and even Bran has the opportunity to do it smoothly because Hodor is easy to posess and also physically strong an capable. But alas Hodor is destined to hold the door because of a lame word play.

[@hopebringer2348]

@@mtrunkelloIt’s incredible how much you misunderstood the Bran possessing Hodor plotline

[@mtrunkello]

@@hopebringer2348 care to elaborate?

[@k45207]

6:33 is that a vacuum in the background?

[@victormello5536]

I've never been 100% on the idea that Aegon will conquer KL in TWOW. It seems pretty clear he's going to conquer Storm's End and I'm pretty sure that Mace will turn to his side (especially if Margaery is arrested or killed because of Cersei's fumblings), so Aegon's gonna have the largest army at his disposal, but I don't think he's going straight to King's Landing, I think he's going to Oldtown. Euron is probably gonna smash the Hightower and Redwyne fleets and conquer Oldtown in the early chapters of Winds, and I think it'd make sense politically and narratively to send Aegon's forces south in response. Politically speaking, if Mace turns to Aegon's side, the Hightowers are allies of the Aegon cause through Mace's wife Alerie, and the Redwynes have been allied to Aegon's cause for years at this point. With Euron conquering Oldtown, Leyton Hightower captured or killed, Paxter Redwyne captured or killed, and both fleets captured or destroyed, it would make perfect sense for Mace (commanding the larger portion of Aegon's forces) to demand an assault against the Ironborn. Narratively speaking, we have a huge Chekov's gun in the Oldtown prophecy ("If Oldtown took up arms against the Dragon, Oldtown would burn, and the Hightower and the Citadel and the Starry Sept would be cast down and destroyed") and the whole Oldtwon-maester-conspiracy plot is a gigantic part of our story that needs a resolution. The High Septon foretold that Oldtown would burn if it ever took up arms against "the Dragon" so the Hightowers and the Citadel and the Faith schemed for nearly 300 years in order to destroy the Targaryen dynasty, and they succeeded. They never literally took up arms but they fought in secret to destroy the Targaryens, so it stands to reason they're still due some comeuppance. With dragons now back in the world, it would make sense to see Oldtown burn. I'm a big believer in Preston's theory that Rhaegal and Viserion will be stolen by different forces in order to create a second Dance of the Dragons. I'm pretty sure Euron will get one through Victarion but I'm also pretty sure Aegon will get one through Quentyn. Also, if we're talking about the reoccurrence of past events, how about the grey plague of Oldtown that happened in Pycelle's youth? It seems narratively irresistible to have JonCon (a man who regrets not being a ruthless monster in war, blindly determined to sit Aegon on the Iron Throne), either intentionally or accidentally, start an epidemic of greyscale in Oldtown. A dragon battle burning a plague ridden Oldtown to the ground sounds like a satisfying conclusion to the maester conspiracy plot. TLDR: just because we're getting a repeat of the Dance of the Dragons, doesn't mean it has to go the exact same way.

[@franlpk9587]

What is preventing GRRM from finishing WoW is all that sweet HBO money he likes so much

[@Kaknamenuss]

who are 'those lannisters' tho? Like who is left?

[@fazediamond5671]

Daven damion

[@lordmelvin9310]

Genna, Daven, Jaime, Cerenna, Myrielle, Damon and Ella, Damion, Luceon, Lanna, and more than a dozen unnamed ones still.

[@conors4430]

I love this entire tangent, and supposed dilemma comes from some comment. George made to somebody what, five years ago?

[@nononono3421]

It makes sense the Tyrells take over, they already control Tommen through Margaery. The Lannisters would go back to Casterly Rock with Cersei and probably mount an attack against Highgarden, which happened in the show, probably after a union with Euron. Also Jaime going back to KL makes sense and it’s how he ends up with Widow’s Wail (then will kill Lady Stoneheart with it, while Brienne kills Stannis with Oathkeeper).

[@codymegehee299]

Nah, the whole “not actually doing any writing” part of not writing the Winds of Winter is what’s preventing it. He will never, ever, finish it. You got played sucka.

[@Seventh-wn1sn]

The only way to make he write the book is making him lose money

[@pauldaskal9510]

He won't get winds out til 2027...no way he finishes a dream...and u want another book Carmine?

[@Anubiszz512zz]

I don't think the Golden company is a greater threat to the realm than Robert Baratheon. Robert had 3 and half Kingdoms at his back, the golden company is just 10,000 men that are currently divided. Sure Jon con will probably make alliances to make his rebellion stronger but I sincerely doubt that it will ever pose a threat greater than Robert's rebellion. Especially when you consider that Dany is likely to show up and quash Conningtons rebellion anyway.

[@Anubiszz512zz]

They wouldn't make Qyburn a regent. Most lords despise him, and he's notably less useful than Varys.

[@johngulotta7951]

My theory is that a lot of that bullshit in the last 2 seasons was in his book And he had the rewrite a lot of it because people did not like the last 2 seasons and Game of Thrones

[@richardtabor8686]

oh. so most of your content is on patreon. got it. intersting topic.

[@evelic]

We are never gonna see the ending pf this story. Which is another cruel play from god on its little special creatures.

[@stevenguevara2184]

You still Think He’s going to finish? No way

[@justsomedude5727]

Bloodraven will be regeant because why noy he's everything else

[@curtishay9936]

Just say legally mate legalistic isn’t a word

[@fazediamond5671]

…..

[@Winter20183]

Legalistic, “adhering excessively to law or formula”

[@curtishay9936]

Ha ha I stand corrected.

[@MC-el2us]

Randall gets beaten and captured Goes over to Fagon, tyrelles open the gates of KL Lannisters flee after Cersei trial even though she wins say, which means she can establish her power at the rock. Tommen is killed Marg offers herself to Fagon. Who accepts her in the short term while ‘arrangements’ for another wedding are made. This can stretch out weeks/months as the Dornish move their pieces as well.

[@nogodsnomasters7669]

Lame paywall

[@MukarramAli98]

We know how it's gonna end, with Dany becoming mad and bran becoming king. What's even the point anymore? Will he change the ending?

[@eric2500]

What's the point? THE WRITING the way the story is told.

[@CharlesFreck]

I don't think Bran will become King. I don't think George's message for the world is "we should elect a god king and let them rule". Do you think that's GRRMs message for the world? You think that's what George wants? A god king? I doubt the 70s hippie thinks an omiscient all powerful ruler is the answer to the world's problems.

[@MrJesus1776]

Wow guys honestly he already finished the winds of winter he's just waiting until the perfect time to release it because all of the bulshit that's going on right now and it's not overcrowded it's just because people who don't normally read real novels or real fantasy books can't keep up with it because nowadays people don't read he's already done with it man he was done with it before season eight even came out he just stopped it because they saw that he didn't want them to mess up the storylines so they finished it the way they wanted to finish it and not according to what he wanted so just give it some time it's already done

[@Galero15]

I want to support the patreon but I cannot on principle support paywalled podcasts, I haven't made that exception yet and likely wont