Dismissive Avoidant Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder? | Dismissive Avoidant Attachment

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[@Revolution-tl5wo]

Functionally, being with a DA feels absolutely no different than being with a pathological narcissist. Even though dismissive-avoidant attachment and narcissism are totally different things and motivated by different pathologies, the experience of them is almost exactly the same. My relationship with my DA ex was dominated by his needs and competing against me to get his needs met over meeting mine. All we ever argued about (and by argued, I mean he constantly picked fights about) was *his* needs, *his* boundaries, *his* space, *his* schedule. I gave and gave and gave to that relationship and it was never enough. I worked so hard to cooperate and collaborate, and all he wanted was to compete. Then, whenever I tried to assert my own needs and resolve why they weren't getting met, he would hijack the conversation and make that about *his needs* too. There was no room for me at all, and he didn't care. "I, me, my" were his obsession 24/7. Ugh. I'll never get involved with a DA again. Maybe it wasn't deliberately abusive in the way that narcissists abuse, but that doesn't make a difference because he put zero work into being better at any of it and expected me to just accept that that's how he is. The effect was the same as narcissistic abuse in the end. It was exhausting, he took from me til I had nothing left to give myself and then blew up the whole relationship and disappeared. I got literally nothing out of it. And of course, he's never bothered to apologize or own up to his shitty behavior. I mean, why would he? *He* got everything he wanted. Ultimately, it's not worth investing in either of them because of how utterly- and unrepentantly- self-centered both of these types are.

[@justamom4853]

Oh my GOD. This sounds exactly like my ex. EXACTLY. I'm reading your comment with my mouth open. Did he gaslight you by making it seem like you had the problem? Mine did. I'm still wondering if mine was DA or a narc.

[@kalifornia4745]

@@justamom4853 I was thinking exactly the same. This sounds like exactly what I just went through. My DA absolutely tried to make me feel like I had the problem and told me I needed to seek help. Also stated that they absolutely did nothing to screw up the relationship and it was all me.

[@howtosober]

@@justamom4853 Same, and my DA let my cat escape purely out of vengeance- never to return.

[@howtosober]

@@queenzee6816 And that's all you have to know. I just had a long conversation with the ex-DA after 18 months of no contact. While we were able to talk and listen to each other- and I didn't get hooked or triggered- he's unable to connect or empathize with the vulnerable experiences I shared. All he could do is tell me how enlightened and at peace *he* feels, and that his behavior was a result of not having been at peace. He's divorced himself from that "former self" now so he's rigidly hanging onto the idea that he's no longer that person, yet I watched his attachment system doing its thing through the entire time we talked. The difference is, I stopped needing to get the closure I was looking for from his understanding. I was unable to say my piece, see the situation for what it is, and finally drop the rock. I hope you get there as well. Healing IS available and you never have to subject yourself to that kind of relationship again!

[@NonyaSmith]

100% well said

[@loverofbeautifulthings]

I was with a covert narcissist for 9 years and am now sorting out a new relationship with a DA. With the CN it felt like he wanted to suck my soul out of my body...he wanted all of me when he was with me. With the DA it's like I have to beg him to be with me (and the last time we were together he told me he wanted me to beg him). Both are exhausting and leave you feeling empty. And both can turn someone who is mostly secure into someone who is anxious.

[@freddiefox.]

Beg..? OMG!

[@audtasticgirl]

Naw. That was another narc.

[@avgonyma1]

There is an extremely big differences. (DSM 9) 9 characteristics of Narcissistic Personality disorders (need to be pervasive- part of their personality structure) 1. Grandiose sense of self importance (diminishing others, feeling you are more, better. Overestimating their competences. Their sense of accomplishment.) 2. Fantasies of unlimited success, power, beauty or ideal love. (They have an ideal of ideal love.) ---> correlation for excessive need for admiration (because of fear of abandonment, and not being enough.). Can be anxious attachment style. 3. Excessive admiration need (hunger, feeding off, reinforcement comes from other people). Overachievers (because that's how they get narcissistic supply. ) 4. Believe they are special, unique, high status. Gifted, special. 5. Entitlement (during driving, my food is taking so long, waiters, partner not fitting expectation-i will become verbally abusive or volatile when their needs are not met. 6. Will exploit others , takin g advantage of others for personal gain. Can be very manipulative (lie, twist things, deflect things) 7. Lack of empathy. Sometimes, rarely, they can empathize They can also pretend that they empathize. 8. Very envious. Rude. Mean comments about people. Not being happy for other people when they are successful. 9. Lots of arrogance. Dismissive avoidant: 1. Does not want excessive admiration. They do appreciate admiration, but don't want to be the center of attention. Words of affirmation Is one of their love languages. They want validation on a fairly consistent basis, from people they love. 2. Will respond initially to being guilted. They tend to understand your point, despite they are not geared towards words. They empathize. (But more internally). 3. They are not grandiose. Tend to be more introverted by nature, need a lot of time and space alone. (Not like narcissist who extracts from being with people). 4. Is cold and stand-off-ish, but not arrogant. They need time to warm up. Because being emotional and in pain. Similarities: 1. DA can look entitled because they are a little selfish by nature (because they had to take care of themselves , so they take this as a pattern). They can be more takers than givers. There is no premeditative component, as in the narcissist. (No startegy for exploitation). If someone doesn't meet their expectations, they won't become angry and volatile. They may retract.

[@lotus1695]

Thank you for that break down. Wish I could print it out. 👌🏻😉

[@lotus1695]

Thank you for the breakdown. Wish I could print it out. 👌🏻

[@avgonyma1]

@@lotus1695 make some screenshots... 😉

[@ianhilario]

avgonyma1 thank you for making it very clear

[@lotus1695]

@@avgonyma1 aaah ja. Good idea! Thanx

[@Eac4wizzie]

Dating someone with Dismissal avoidance was a horrible experience took a lot of my self steel but it help me after love myself more and attach myself love discipline

[@genazittlow5657]

This is when I dug deep and learned as well. I’ve never dated a DA before and I’ve never felt so bad!!

[@katalinmcewan]

@@genazittlow5657 Ditto. I haven’t even dated him, just almost. It was absolutely horrific! The constant blowing of hot and cold. And this is coming from someone who was badly hurt by a covert narcissist and spent years learning about NPD. Just about healed and was happy then had to fall for someone with DA. 😫 It was super painful and exhausting.

[@genazittlow5657]

@@katalinmcewan I’m so so sorry. It’s painful for sure. And it sets you back…. I’ve done plenty of work on myself and it still got me in a tizzy and it took some time to get over the whole thing. I’m aware of it now and I see it in a lot of men. Some more so than others and at different levels.

[@howtosober]

DAs are absolutely awful unless they're HEALED DAs. It doesn't really matter which it is (DA or narcissism), since for the partner the experience is nearly identical. When the difference in underlying motivation doesn't change the way it feels on the receiving end, identifying which pathology the person has is nothing but a mental exercise. Whether or not they mean it, the DA's colorful cache of protest and deactivating behaviors- as well as they way they treat you on their way out of the relationship- are every bit as abusive as when they come from a narcissist.

[@sb75ification]

Anxious attachment disorder is often a manifestation of a being in a long relationship with someone that has covert NPD or a dismissive attachment. Both NPD and dismissive personalities can and will slowly turn an otherwise confident person into an needy anxious mess. A ten year relationship turned me into a shell of the person I was prior to meeting my wife.

[@rizen9457]

Really good point here.

[@holliee8070]

I'd love to see more on the Dismissive avoidant who has Covert Narcissism with a lack of intimacy and empathy with their partner. I feel it's more prominent than the Grandiose Narcissist

[@mousumibiswas1]

I feel my husband is suffering with this and I'm suffering because of his behavior. For last one year I'm insanely wandering here and there for some cure. I'm unable to leave him, he is very caring as well. I'm extremely attached. I'm looking for something that can help him heal.

[@freddiefox.]

Yes, exactly this! I've had what I want to describe as unintended or accidental narcissistic abuse from my Dismissive Avoidant partner over several months. I'm now no-contact and in recovery. I feel that the combination of an anxious empath with a dismissive avoidant partner led to what became a de facto abusive dynamic. We were feeding off each other but in a very unhealthy and harmful way, for me at least. I became her supply, satisfying her with my attention (remotely), and got love-bombed in return triggering an addictive dopamine response and probably serotonin and oxytocin too. I had no boundaries in place because she was DA so not comfortable to get too close to me, hence I kept lowering them. She was comfortable being at arm's length but seeing my responses. On occasions when I asked her for more/closer contact, she became triggered and fearful, pulling away. This in turn increased my own anxiety and need for reassurance, creating a feedback loop. It only stopped when we broke all contact. I've been really psychologically damaged by this experience over a number of months, but on the mend now.

[@stevensantora2976]

Yes for sure.

[@theonlydjtopcat]

Not to stereotype, but statistical facts are still facts. Diagnosed grandiose narcissists tend to be predominantly males, and vulnerable/coverts mostly female. The coverts are the most toxic by far, because a grandiose narcissist sticks out like a sore thumb, so self absorbed and arrogant it's almost comical. You can see them coming a mile away. But a covert narc can hide behind a successful career, and appear perfectly normal to everyone not close to them. They will be night and day in public and behind closed doors with their intimate partner. Once the mask begins to slip after the honeymoon phase fizzles out, they become abusive monsters. Selfish, no empathy, and potentially very vindictive after a cold discard. This was my ex a year ago. Her attachment style probably depended on how badly she needed supply. She started off extremely anxious, then when she knew she had me hooked flipped the switch and went ice cold dismissive avoidant except when she needed supply, emotional support, sex etc etc. She gave me a trauma bond that has taken 8 months to finally heal enough to not ruminate about her daily. I tell people it's like the narc implants a tiny tape recorder in your brain during the idealization phase that made you feel so special, and just presses play and lets it loop during the rest of the relationship so no matter what horrific abuse they do to you you can only fixate on the good feeling of the beginning. It is is the WORST!

[@freddiefox.]

@@theonlydjtopcat Yes, the trauma bond is incredibly powerful. It's almost beyond belief (until you've experienced it), yet is a common tool of abuse and psychological control. Essentially they create a neurochemical addiction to them in your brain, using your own hormones. It's clever and devastatingly effective, particularly on those who are more vulnerable to it. It's a valuable learning experience though, albeit at high emotional cost.

[@howtosober]

It doesn't really matter which it is, since for the partner the experience is nearly identical. When the difference in underlying motivation doesn't change the way it feels on the receiving end, identifying which pathology the person has is nothing but a mental exercise. Whether or not they mean it, the DA's colorful cache of protest and deactivating behaviors- as well as they way they treat you on their way out of the relationship- are every bit as abusive as when they come from a narcissist.

[@Taryn101]

I’m so glad I found this! I dated a dismissive avoidant and it ended up being too challenging for me. :(

[@tbo2120]

Taryn101 me too. At least I think that’s what she was. It’s tough going. Nervous system was triggering (I hate that word) in all sorts of ways. Very unusual.

[@DeSam90]

I'm a fearful avoidant and I found it easier to date a narc than an dismissive avoidant

[@alignedmindbodysoul]

@@DeSam90 wow

[@nadinegomez8858]

@@DeSam90 lol hunnie you haven’t encountered a bad enough narc yet then 😳

[@sal2975]

@@nadinegomez8858 For real!

[@andrewvo8395]

I feel like one of the biggest key differences is that avoidants are operating at an unconscious level and their behaviors are quite misunderstood, whereas narcissists have a clear strategy of idealizing, devaluing and discarding their partners. My point is that avoidants might be doing that as well, they’re just not doing it on purpose. We all have narcissistic tendencies, whether you’re anxious, avoidant, or secure and at times I think we might have the inclination to label people or partners who have wronged us as narcissists just because it rationalizes why they’re no longer in our lives. As an anxious that’s on a journey of rebuilding self worth and practicing techniques to appreciate myself more and acknowledge my positive qualities, ive often wondered if narcissism is just self-love gone too far.

[@PsychedPerspective]

I agree!!!

[@eaumartineau7890]

Narcissism is NOT self love. It's a wounded self turned fake identity. Neglect on different levels emotionally are like the storm that shaped the rock. In this case it's result is a jagged mask. Think of it as a innocent child not allowed to be himself there for never develops a true self and instead creates the mask to where that will be acceptable to his mom and dad or other primary caregivers. It's very sad actually.

[@PsychedPerspective]

Let go Accept this is very true! Many ppl suffer from narcissism and/or BPD/NPD due to horrible childhoods and traumatic experiences more so in our childhoods. As you stated folx really weren’t allowed to be themselves so the wearing of masks 🎭 to appease others has become the norm unfortunately. Again I think only those that really have a significant narcissistic injury will actually wake up. It’s ultimately up to the person to change themselves for the better. It sucks because ppl like that tend to hurt others in the process or continue to relive these scenarios over and over again :/

[@tbo2120]

I’d love to chat to you more about this. Is it possible to do over here or somewhere else? You seem to have a good grasp but I’d love to know some more feelings/traits you might have discovered on your journey or realisation?

[@TechieBaby]

No, not true.

[@Toucanyou]

I was scared for a long time that I might be a narcissist because my father is and we are similar... this video has been really reassuring to me. so thank you

[@howtosober]

It doesn't really matter which it is, since for the partner the experience is nearly identical. When the difference in underlying motivation doesn't change the way it feels on the receiving end, identifying which pathology the person has is nothing but a mental exercise. Whether or not they mean it, the DA's colorful cache of protest and deactivating behaviors- as well as they way they treat you on their way out of the relationship- are every bit as abusive as when they come from a narcissist.

[@SkyePhoenix]

I used to think he (the DA that I love) was a narcissist. Edit: In the end, do labels really matter? All anyone can do is try to be self aware and work on healing themselves. That's the hardest part, and the only way to ever truly get better quality relationships... which is why, in a sense, I feel like (for me) it's hopeless.

[@lesliegann2737]

About lack of empathy, my narcissistic mother had lots of empathy for other people but very little for her daughter (me). So sometimes narcissists are more like this than having no or little empathy at all.

[@aselyne5631]

Story of my life

[@kellyk8702]

I agree, my mom is/was the same way. However her mask has started to fall off to her friends and her immediate family members and they have walked away from her.

[@erin9243]

They empathy that they show to others is only performative

[@lesliegann2737]

@@erin9243 Mostly true but she actually did have empathy for some people.

[@aillie8858]

I would love to hear a video on covert narcissism. There's so many damaging, toxic videos out there and would love to hear your compassionate take on it.

[@mujuw]

A previous (exasperated!) partner expressed concerns that I may be a narcissist, which I took on internally in quite a big way; it rocked my self-consciousness and ability to connect with others. Very recently I realised that I have a dismissive-avoidant attachment style and have been doing a bit of research; your video has really helped me put a few things into perspective and might go some way towards healing old wounds. Thank you :))

[@keeskoekert6358]

Narcs always tell others they are narcs, so maybe he should check on himself. They mirror.

[@bunniewood]

hope youre getting the help you need and making changes good luck

[@howtosober]

It doesn't really matter which it is, since for the partner the experience is nearly identical. When the difference in underlying motivation doesn't change the way it feels on the receiving end, identifying which pathology the person has is nothing but a mental exercise. Whether or not they mean it, the DA's colorful cache of protest and deactivating behaviors- as well as they way they treat you on their way out of the relationship- are every bit as abusive as when they come from a narcissist.

[@nataliemassingill3493]

I love the long videos! They’re very informative. I prefer the 20+ minute videos over the

[@strawberryjam5844]

I love how you bring this up, it is so important to not destroy the lifes of other people by labelling them as narcissists, it can be very hurtful. I was so scared my ex was a narcissist, until I learned through your videos that he is a dismissive/ fearful avoidant. And I am glad, as now I trust my own instincts more. I was truly questioning my ability to understand people and keep myself safe. And I have become so much more empathetic towards hurtful people, because I know where they come from emotionally.

[@caseymorgan]

Can a DA have strong narcissistic tendencies but not be a full on narc? You describe several of my ex’s issues, but not 5 of 9. And there are so many nuances.

[@gogohappygirl]

Would love to see an updated video that addresses covert/vulnerable narcissism versus DA. Or even neglectful narcissism versus DA.

[@A6Legit]

Please do more on the fearful avoidant.

[@JadetheGoober]

I’m reading these comments and yall... we gotta pick better company.

[@The1TheOnlyK]

Being with an avoidant as a fearful avoidant had my damn anxious side kick my ass the whole time. I often wondered if he was narcissistic but he definitely thought I was narcissistic because of my emotions making me more selfish. Sooo... that ended. But we're still friends, so not all is lost

[@nataschamuller5582]

Thais, my partner will be so grateful because I have gone as far as watching this to understand my hyper vigilance. i survived domestic violence as a fearful avoidant with a narcissist... After falling into a relationship with a DA shortly after the ordeal I felt so lost at sea, regarding whether I was reliving my nightmare. With corona and us being house bound it's a great time for me to process and reprogram... I am deeply thankful

[@opetoyou]

I also met a DA after a LTR with a narcissist and that’s what brought me here as well. I was heavily triggered but the actual narcissistic traits just weren’t there so I was confused. Haha

[@jacobbrozenick8366]

Thanks, I watched the because I’m trying to figure out what I am! I was called a narcissist by a close friend recently and it really threw me for a loop. I’m definitely discovering that I am dismissive avoidant, which is something I didn’t even know existed but wow does it explain a lot.

[@Sophie-uc8vp]

My ex to a tee. At first I thought he was an avoidant with ADHD so I made loads of allowance for his behaviour. The avoidant attachment was a red herring. He was so clearly a narcissist but I didn't realise for years, until I started googling to try to make sense of my severely confusing relationship.

[@cm-yu6gu]

Omg same thing happened to me. I have avoidant attachment and I recognised the avoidant behaviour in him and I thought we had the same attachment style. BOY WAS I MISTAKEN Narc all the way Terrifying experience I'm here now to educate myself so I don't get blindsighted and this shit doesn't happen to me again Narc abuse will truly mess you up Whereas avoidants might hurt people but they truly don't mean to cause harm, they're just unaware and will make an effort to better themselves after being confronted about the same problem multiple times and seeing a pattern. Narcs are ruthless in their destruction with no remorse or apology

[@Elvira.L.E.]

I’m mainly an AA and my son’s dad was a grandiose narc I can totally relate to all the points mentioned in this video (he would proudly talk about him taking advantage of others at work as mentioned in #6). Took me 3 years to heal until I met a new guy and fell in love feeling I saw no red flags 🚩…after some time our relationship started falling apart and I couldn’t understand why. 9months after breaking up with him (I initiated) I found out my next love was a DA.🥺 I could definitely see the difference and I still see massive differences between my ex narc and DA. DAs have soft sides to them, don’t act like grandiose, entitled or arrogant towards others in their face. Rather humble. Although in terms of damage to AA like myself - I felt (still feel) more damaged after relationship with DA. The only positive thing is I can heal again and can lean more towards SA but I felt absolutely non-existent throughout my relationship with DA. With narc - he would speak ‘my language’ such as aww, darling, I don’t need anything (if I was shopping) just go and spoil yourself. - with DA I never had that. Another difference is that with narc we would always be out and about attending his work events where he’s nominated to one or another award, go on holidays etc. but with DA we only had 3 different events during 2 years relationship. He didn’t even add me to his Fb even though he would friend many people. There was no pics with me and my DA on his Fb, only mine. With narc - he was putting pics with us, everybody could see we were in relationship etc etc. so I was more ‘visible’ and kinda ‘validated’ by my narc (it’s all fakery of course, from their part it’s absolutely not genuine, just learnt ‘language’ or strategies to keep you as their supply). However I feel more ruined by the breadcrumbs I was getting from my DA… Maybe because it felt more genuine and he couldn’t open up and kept running away not considering me and how much it hurt me….so I kinda re-lived all abuse from narc. Maybe because it’s still raw I don’t know 🤷‍♀️😕 So anyways, I’m very grateful for my lessons, and hopefully third time lucky 🍀😂🤞and when I lean more SA I can attract more loving & healthier relationship!

[@moonie7155]

What about a covert narcissist with DA? I find that the lines are very confusing between the two because they behave so differently than overt narcissists and already display that more introverted/reserved personality. My ex fits DA exactly, but he also would show some forms of gaslighting, love bombing, the silent treatment/ignoring, rage (sometimes) entitlement, lack of empathy. He didn't seem to need external validation like an overt narcissist, but he still was very entitled and arrogant in valuing himself over others, me, and our relationship. I would love to know what all it would take to classify him (for my own sanity) as just someone with DA or a covert narcissist with DA. Thanks if anyone is able to answer!

[@addwasabitomycoffee5811]

I have read that research shows that covert/vulnerable narcissistic people tend to have anxious attachment patterns while grandiose narcissistic people tend to have avoidant or secure attatchment patterns.

[@pamihmod]

the person in the video specifically said not to diagnose other people. I dont think you are in the position to ‘classify’ your significant other

[@Karla-rd1or]

I met a guy who is a DA and I'm a FA, so when he hurt me I immediately thought he was a narcissist and wanted to run away as soon as possible, it was horrible because I thought I trusted the wrong person and I was very confused, but then I realized that he NEVER used the gaslighting or tried to manipulate me, two things that narcissists love to do. Honestly, narcissists are just hard people to be with, they suck all your energy and you always find yourself doing things you don't really want to do only for them, something that I've never felt with the DAs

[@alignedmindbodysoul]

Im in the search of the same truth, confused.com

[@jodilynn1945]

Nailed it moonie!

[@thornodell8680]

My DA/FA ex used the “you’re a narcissist” card on me, she was so sweet and loving the first few months but then would never want to resolve problems, would see me less and less . She gaslit me constantly and turned me into the enemy resorting to like I said calling me a narcissist and basically saying it’s my fault and then come to find out a week later she is already hanging out with another guy...., I love her so much too so for her to do this to me really hurts, avoidants are no joke and heart breakers

[@janefaceinthewind6260]

Sorry you are hurting, I hope you are healing soon. I made the same experience, nothing gets ever resolved, no active working on the relationship, being mocked, put down, gaslit. 17 years. A part of me is open to the idea that he might change with therapy, but I have met an emotionally available man who is simply wonderful and would make me so happy. Please be kind to yourself and get better soon, your true love is probably still out there. You deserve to be happy.

[@malindarayallen]

She sounds more like a narcissist, with the gaslighting, cheating, and manipulation. Do some personal work to get free of that. Ask yourself what you really love about her, and then ask yourself how you can start to truly love yourself.

[@nico3641]

I’m a DA, and I would never behave that way. I would have a lot more respect to my partner. Your ex must have other issues as well. What’s your attachment style?

[@viklucier8793]

went through the same thing ... I understand you so much

[@katalinmcewan]

I would say she sounds like a narcissist to me. I have had the misfortune of knowing both. Covert narc and a person with DA. Both were very painful experiences.

[@edithhsedits226]

Do you think you can make a video talking about the covart narcissist vs dissmissive avoidant? I know covart usually more introverted, have a victim mentallity, and don't typically have the characteristics of a narcissist people typically think about or we see in movies. I would like to hear more about this.

[@baloog8]

I find that just hearing the traits is helpful and ungaslighting. Appreciate this video!What's actually happening is probably worse than I think it is because I give people so much rope. It actually helps me calm down and feel more compassion but paradoxically not get roped in and try to fix or prove something. I can focus on being happy and healing which is good for everyone including the person of focus. I find it helpful to just understand the tendencies vs categorize.

[@roxyz77]

I've recently learned about a subtype called the "neglectful narcissist" and learned they are more prone to developing the DA style. I started to wonder if my ex was both.

[@jessicamessica2271]

Dittttoooo!!!! Yes

[@zedx990]

Y'all don't really get over your ex's, right?

[@roxyz77]

@@zedx990 Wondering about someone doesn't necessarily mean you aren't over them. All I will say is once you become secure it gets easier to move on from a DA.

[@ritwit80]

My Narcissistic father is the reason why i'm a Fearful Avoidant. Fortunately for me, i can heal my attachment style (which i've started) . Unfortunately for the Narcissist, according to many experts, they cannot be healed. Only treated, if they actually care to admit that they need help. I feel so much guilt, shame and depression from all the relationships i've sabotaged. I've sworn to stay single until i'm almost 100% secure.

[@bellabong8862]

So clear. Thank you for making this video.

you talk about grandioso npd, but you forgot about covert npd. There is huge difference. Coverts are/might be much more avoidant

[@mnqc5km3]

Richard Grannon's video on counterdependance and love phobia explains the DA quite well and also why it can look like cluster B type behaviour. All of this stuff is a form of codependancy/counterdependancy. And what is the ultimate desire? Control. Controlling another to get my needs met and avoid anxiety. The DA seeks to control a person through distancing, having the relationship on their terms, and take validation from the partner, rather than give it, to get their needs met. The AA is passive, manipulative and can be clingy to control others. They bring out the worst in each other but both have stratagies to remain as they feel safe. This whole thing is based in control issues I believe. Lose the need to control people (either through clinging or pushing away) and growth can happen. I believe that either attachment style at the extreme end (lack of belief in self or lack of trust in others will lead to more narcissistic traits, until at some point it crosses over into either vunerable or overt narcissism or components of the two.

[@bouclechocolat]

People overwhelmingly seem to miss the fact that for a DA, isolation is an end in and of itself.

[@1chienandalou]

So in some sense the poor fearful attachment person is afraid of the right stuff! It is scary stuff to deal with all this either way! ;-)

[@K-A5]

Control isnt a basic human need. Feeling safe is though. People only want to control as a way to feel powerful, which admittedly if you're used to being taken advantage of or neglected or abused, you want to get back at least 50% of the power in a relationship. Controlling the way a relationship is with someone to get your basic need for safety met is the root of all the attachment styles because theyre formed in traumatic relationships from our parents not attuning to us as infants/children. Except its not control for the sake of control so telling people they need to just let go of their need to control others is missing the point that its the only way they feel some semblance of safety and certainty. Its like telling an addict to stop doing drugs cuz theyre unhealthy. Yeah, they know, but healing the core wound will result in the maladaptive coping skills falling away naturally.

[@cyndigooch1162]

@@K-A5 That's exactly right!!! ❤

[@kiramirska3780]

I am a DA I don’t want to control any person, their behaviour, choices, life and so on, i don’t need that kind of responsibility I do exactly the opposite, I encourage people to do their thing. I just want a safe distance Yeah sure, it can look as me trying to control their ability to hurt me through distancing and it probably is, but still it’s not about controlling the individual

[@taylorellis4336]

My bf is definitely a da i am a anxious/fearful so this is definitely draining I feel like he doesn’t care at all he’s not affection what so ever but in the beginning he was so kind . I just don’t get this behavior when he the one who pressed the relationship but when we got together he doesn’t try doesn’t some emotion . But he won’t break it off with me either so I don’t understand

[@sallychoi4183]

I got the same experience

[@cglenn1457]

So did I. I just finally broke up with him last week after telling him I was going to stay until he told me he didn't want me anymore. 3 days later he gave me a 24 hour silent treatment and I finally gave up and left him. It sucks, but I should have done it a month or 2 ago.

[@malindarayallen]

Ditch him. Be free.

[@SkyePhoenix]

@@sallychoi4183 Me too. He doesn't seem to want me, but doesn't want anyone else to have me.

[@NatalieZii]

I had the same experience. Very warm in the beginning and then they go hot and cold. That is because they are inconsistent within themselves. Deep down all humans need connection but avoidants fear and diminish this need. So sometimes they admit they want connection and other times they don’t. If they refuse treatment, it is not bearable to stay with such a person and not healthy.

[@meganlangreck2488]

I sorted through all your videos and somehow missed this one. I really appreciate it. On the Internet, people are likely to "learn" that some of the coping mechanisms and behaviors of Avoidant people are actually signs of a Narcissist, or more confusingly a "covert Narcissist".

[@empress_highpriestess3307]

I agree..mistaking the anxious or fearful's need for consistency and validation for the narcissist's need for adoration.

[@emotophobiccdd8006]

There's a lot of misinformation out there. As well as misdiagnosis. As well as people who seek psychological information with the agenda of convincing themselves that it was all the other person's fault. Even when we're given the correct diagnosis and information it's the easiest thing in the world to arrange it in a way where we believe that we're pure good, and all our problems are external. So we really need to sift through the bs, get over ourselves, and get it right!

[@spcecicles4502]

@@emotophobiccdd8006 I agree and it is a lot of miserable people on her videos trying to make the narrative to fit in their favor. They forget that these are people who have been hurt too.

[@SilverGirlAu]

Thank you so much for this video- I have been struggling to understand if my hubby is narcissistic or avoidant or both!! This is really clear!

[@emotophobiccdd8006]

And the conclusion is???

[@mousumibiswas1]

What did you find out Maddi ? I'm also suffering very badly in my relationship. Emotionally I'm drained. Please reply.

[@Elvira.L.E.]

My story, if it helps anyone clarify their situation.. I’m mainly an AA and my son’s dad was a grandiose narc I can totally relate to all the points mentioned in this video (he would proudly talk about him taking advantage of others at work as mentioned in #6). Took me 3 years to heal until I met a new guy and fell in love feeling I saw no red flags 🚩…after some time our relationship started falling apart and I couldn’t understand why. 9months after breaking up with him (I initiated) I found out my next love was a DA.🥺 I could definitely see the difference and I still see massive differences between my ex narc and DA. DAs have soft sides to them, don’t act like grandiose, entitled or arrogant towards others in their face. Rather humble. Although in terms of damage to AA like myself - I felt (still feel) more damaged after relationship with DA. The only positive thing is I can heal again and can lean more towards SA but I felt absolutely non-existent throughout my relationship with DA. With narc - he would speak ‘my language’ such as aww, darling, I don’t need anything (if I was shopping) just go and spoil yourself. - with DA I never had that. Another difference is that with narc we would always be out and about attending his work events where he’s nominated to one or another award, go on holidays etc. but with DA we only had 3 different events during 2 years relationship. He didn’t even add me to his Fb even though he would friend many people. There was no pics with me and my DA on his Fb, only mine. With narc - he was putting pics with us, everybody could see we were in relationship etc etc. so I was more ‘visible’ and kinda ‘validated’ by my narc (it’s all fakery of course, from their part it’s absolutely not genuine, just learnt ‘language’ or strategies to keep you as their supply). However I feel more ruined by the breadcrumbs I was getting from my DA… I tend to think it’s because to me our connection with DA felt more genuine, sadly he couldn’t open up and kept running away not considering me and how much it hurt me….but somewhere deeply in his heart he did love me but was holding back.. However this made me feel like I re-lived all the feelings of being neglected, unwanted, and so much confusion without and clarity in communication etc etc.i was experiencing with narc. Maybe because it’s still raw i still feel heartbroken but the info from this channel definitely makes easy to process experience and make sense to it all. So anyways, I’m very grateful for my lessons, and hopefully third time lucky 🍀😂🤞and when I lean more SA I can attract more loving & healthier relationship!

[@MTG9878]

No not from an innocent place the narc, knows they are messed up inside then take that damage and use it damage others and then not even blink and then blame those they damaged.

[@jrg9963]

I’ve read that Emotional blindness (Alexithymia) occurs in 1 in 2 of those with autism and 1 in 10 without autism, & that Dismissive avoidance attachment style is common in those that are extremely emotionally blind on the scale. They don’t do the behaviour intentionally or deceptively or manipulate like the narcissist. It’s unintentional but still hurts. I’ve met someone with autistic disorder (not aspergers) on the spectrum that is not emotionally blind but so sweet and has a positive attitude way more than other people I know, nice to everyone & people are attracted to their positivity so I hope people see that there are wonderful people out there with autism & that the emotional blindness experiences don’t give those without it a bad rap.

[@dancorson5822]

Some of us don’t hate the narcissist, we just aren’t buying what they’re selling anymore and taking their crap anymore. Their con works because of our ignorance

[@tiagoguerreiro131]

Thank you Thais!!! God bless you!!!

[@saffronandloki]

This is so helpful, thank you!

[@luciaengel3]

You are só good at your work👌

[@evelyncaday9845]

Hi Thais! Do you have a video of Anxious attachment and narcissism? I started learning about Covert Narcissist and wanted to know if there is overlap for having an Anxious attachment?

[@RuCaET]

This was very helpful thank you! ❤ I thought I was a narcissist, sometimes I used close people to go out into public, now I see it was rare and only with really close people, otherwise I look a lot like avoidant.

[@dancorson5822]

No empathy doesn’t mean none at all, just none for you.

[@RJ-lt5lk]

My boyfriend's mother has 7 out of 9 traits of NPD. Very pervasive. My boyfriend is a DA. Thank you for this explanation.

[@kellyvandall3355]

Very informative video. Eye opening.

[@kellyvandall3355]

9 of 9! NARCISSIST!

[@jackandcokeallmorning]

this is so helpful, thank you !!! will say i think i find myself drawn to relationships with both which is sort of interesting. i'm for sure a somewhat anxious-leaning FA and i have BPD.

[@kellygrasso1224]

Do you have experience with covert or vulnerable narcissists? Would they fit into the dismissive-avoidant attachment style more so than a grandiose narcissist?

[@Tam974eva]

they are mostly fas

[@AlohaMichaelDaly]

Thais - you are a wealth of knowledge on your subject which can be very complex and nuanced. But you dont leave confusion to manifest nor make things simplified for ease. It takes a lot of concentration to keep up, and that’s just on the listener side. I admire your intelligence and communication skills. You have a special kind of teacher care altruism. A wrongful diagnosis of a person by the layman as taking the person to be a Narcissist when its actually Dismissive Avoidant is a tragic affair - so unfair to the person, perhaps someone you love and can understand and have a beautiful relationship with, but because of the mistaken diagnosis reject them.

[@AlohaMichaelDaly]

… in fact is it true that the way to deal with a Narcissist and a Dismissive Avoidant is virtually an opposite? You deal with the narcissist with distance and no contact, but the avoidant with understanding and attention.

[@Liz-sf4qo]

So so helpful!

[@onecompetive]

A vulnerable narcissist is often called a covert narcissist. Could also be anxious preoccupied.

[@joygriffis2042]

All I can say is, thank you.

[@geraldharmon9170]

I really do believe that a narcissist can be more of a dismissive avoidant more than the other attachments styles because both DA and narcs make you feel like you're in the relationship doing most of the work by yourself.

[@prachibhattarai3833]

yes this is really useful..thank u very much

[@brad3378]

This is my favorite topic.

[@Stellabyestarlight]

Mine tooooo

[@linneamedia]

Great topic

[@sofiapaladino5172]

I had a very painful situation with a DA. And talking to therapist and coaches they told me he sounded like a narcissist. But he didn’t have the typical narcissist behavior, just some traits. But this was compared to the grandiose like this video is doing. But there is one kind of narcissist that isn’t talked about so much, is called neglectful narcissist. Is a type of covert but not the typically victim mentality one. Now this neglectful narcissist falls exactly with DA patterns, but is much more hurtful, avoidant is more of hiding and avoiding, I don’t think they hurt people so much. My ex is neglectful with his kid, his family and ultimately destroyed me because I feel too much and I really loved him

[@adoptioncorner1984]

I understand totally 😢

[@freddiefox.]

🧡

[@matilda4406]

Very useful, thank you

[@ipaycloseattention]

This video covers the grandiose narcissist. The DSM-5 has a separate diagnosis for a vulnerable narcissist, which is what most people refer to as "covert".

[@ElevateYou-ef8iz]

I would LOVE to see this same video but in reference to DA and vulnerable or covert narcissism!

[@alexandriabattiste9355]

Thank you!

[@edgreen8140]

4 E's it's cold or cognitive empathy with no emotion. Entitlement , exploitation of others, envy of others and believe others are envious of them. That is for the narcissist overt or vulnerable. Lack of trust is also a big one for both da and narcissist. Out for themselves in both.

[@iremgultan9897]

What if someone shows both characteristics; meaning going back and forth between all of these you mentioned? How to approach those individuals then? And how can we differentiate btw. those 2 to protect ourselves from getting hurt, or just to direct the right questions to really understand them?

[@maysaraali5772]

Thank you 😊

[@smohammed2821]

Can you please make a video about COVERt narristic vs avoidant style disorder its hard to tell them apart is it the same?

[@sarahcook908]

The key thing that showed my ex-husband was a narcissist and not a DA was the arrogance and urgent dire need for power over others.

[@rikkijeanart]

Hi there Thais, is it conman for DA’s to do the classic take it out on the ones they love?

[@RecreationalUseOnly]

Anxious attachments seem like Covert Narcissists

[@user-ey9fm5my3s]

Having expectations about how you want people to treat you does not necessarily make you narcissistic. It makes you self-respecting. Why would I tolerate being treated like less than what I want? Why would I stay close to such a person?

[@kiacarter93]

Omg, thank you so much for this video! Ive actually dealt with this lol i started seeing someone and i kept going back and forth with which one he was....And i know your not supposed to do this but at the time i was learning a lot about attachment styles, personality disorders , behaviors and psychology in general lol And i came to the conclusion that he was just a dismissive avoidant. But as a fearful avoidant it was all still too much . And i recently seen your video of you explaining how attachment styles plays a big part in relationships and i couldnt agree with you more :) So great job. Love your videos

[@mousumibiswas1]

I still couldn't get clarity you know. I'm emotionally drained in my relationship. Looking for help insanely.

[@gezor20]

and the difference between a covert narcissist and a fearful avoidant?

[@keeskoekert6358]

A narc wants too hurt you, an avoidant rather jumps off a bridge instead of hurting someone.

[@redlipmarketing867]

Kees, thank you. THANKS!! You've put it a complicated sentiment in a succinct way!.

[@8teillumin]

I’m convinced that my ex fiencee is a D/A she dumped me a month ago as I was bouncing through a massive depression (now swing diagnosed as possible Cyclothymia). I am currently secureish in my self but amF/A but heading to being more secure. I still love her but I’m done with her atm….When they crash and burn I will help her and comfort her but only with my new stronger boundaries.

[@sophiefrost]

I'm sorry, I loved that you laughed!

[@michellenowlin535]

My boyfriend is definitely a dismissive avoidant and I am mostly an anxious attachment. The question and problem I have is that I am very sensitive to criticism. Almost every time I am with him he makes a comment that hurts my feelings and then makes me draw back from him. He says that he has to walk on eggshells around me when that happens. This has been a thing that might end this relationship. He says that he is kidding but the things he says feels like degrading. I have talked to him about this and he basically says I need to realize he is kidding and not take it personally but it does hurt me. I don't know if there is a way to get him to realize how much it is hurting me or do I just need to end it?

[@donna2693]

If it's hurting and he knows this but keeps on doing it then NO it is not ok and you better ending it if he can't see or doesn't care how his remarks hurt you! From what you've said your DA sounds more like a narc....it is not ok for someone to continue a behaviour you make clear hurts and belittles you he clearly has no respect for your feelings. Reread very carefully what you posted and if this was a your best friend, sister or daughter that came to you and said this what would your advice be to them?...then heed it.... sometimes we don't know our own worth and let people treat us badly but when it comes to someone close to you would you let that same person treat them like that.... it's what I live by now, if it's not what I would support a friend a sister a daughter with then it's not good enough for me either... it's not a joke if your not laughing remember that xo

[@bronx452]

Unfortunately, in my personal experience these types of hurtful "jokes" are very typical signs of narcissism and not dismissive avoidance. It's also typical of the narcissist to turn the situation around, where it's not him being degrading and hurtful with his "funny" comments but it's you being oversensitive.

[@michellenowlin535]

@@bronx452 He actually told me I was too sensitive just about a week ago. After I accidentally stuck my finger in his coffee cup goofing around, He told me that I should stop f'ing things up. When he asked me why I was upset later and I told him he said he didn't remember saying that and that I was just too sensitive.

[@Kyrmana]

I doubt he'll ever see your side :(

[@juleslloyd9162]

At the very least he is seeing you as inferior to him by pointing out that you’re too “sensitive” time and time again and putting you down. At the very least he sounds like a very controlling, immature man and I’d look at moving on from him, narcissist or not

[@youraccount7003]

The 9 core qualities of the narcissist kinda sounds like most politicians.

[@factsuncensored8168]

My partner is dismissive avoidant. And has ADHD. He is also a narcissist!

[@taystiii]

Pig Fat oh my poor you..

[@lisahammond9764]

We might have the same ex 🤣

[@officerk1693]

Sounds like my ex lol

[@amy-leedavies3237]

Do you think that's quite common? I'm trying to figure out if that could be the case with my ex.. how do you know he/she is both? Or just DA? Are you willingly staying in the relationship even though you know he/she is a narcissist? Just looking for insight as I'm in a similar spot..

[@alignedmindbodysoul]

God help us

[@emotophobiccdd8006]

I feel very very uncomfortable taking anything, EVER! Emotionally, I'm aware that part of me can be a leach, because I simply have nothing to give so much of the time. I mean I do make myself give, and at times it is perfectly natural, and even energizing. But most of the time I'm so hollow that it's a very emotionally dead, robotic kind of giving. I'm merely physically present, and giving out of a sense of guilt & fairness, which is a huge struggle, and makes me very very physically tired, very very quickly. So I reach a point of paralysis, where I simply have nothing left to give myself or anyone else. I have come to think of it as a catatonic inner child, which awakes when it's needs are met - and those needs are becoming less and less mysterious. At 43 I have spent remarkably little time in relationships, and only ever lived with someone for a year. So I consider this aspect of myself to be a very self-aware, conscientious, malnourished leach, which never formed a habit of feeding off others, and which has plenty of potential to morph. The withholding of emotionis is so far from a conscious choice, and isn't by any stretch of the imagination connected to a strategy (conscious or unconscious) of gain, but a deep, unconscious belief that things are about to turn to shit, so an unconscious strategy to avoid that at all costs! If a person goes about dealing with a willing da partner the the wrong way, it will almost certainly be a disaster. I don't pretend that we're easy to understand. But I do not respond well to the idea that I have a selfish agenda. And once a person starts getting hysterical and making such accusations, it's pretty well all over for me. Thais has great advice. Watch all of her videos if you're with a da! Also, just as important is understanding Emotophobia (not to be confused with Emetophobia) kzbin.info/www/bejne/l3nMd6GAZ7KrbJo - why aren't people talking more about this???

[@komatsu8169]

Hey how's Everything going? Are you still a DA? Are you dating? This is such an insightful comment from a DA about themselves, would like to hear from you.

[@hidden_inchrist]

Can confirm, my ex was a narcissist and had an anxious attachment.

[@opetoyou]

Same, I am FA and it was wholly overwhelming.

[@MohammadMahdiDezyani]

The sound quality is very poor.

[@koni_island]

Hello, some observations here are in my opinion very good. Unfortunately, I find the conclusions somewhat misguided in part. The need for excessive admiration is certainly related to feelings of inferiority, fear of attachment and dependence. But narcissistic supply happens at the level of performance and competition. Tight attachments, threaten the narcissist in his grandiose self, because they bring him into contact with his suppressed needs for attachment, feelings of inferiority and fear of dependence. It can be argued that vulnerable narcissism (in this case it makes sense to use the term inverted narcissism) is more likely to fall into the field of anxious attachment. Here, self-confidence is stabilised by close relationships. And that is why narcissism is inverted, or in other words suppressed. The narcissist represents the anxiously attached person's desire for stability of self, even if we know it is fake. Conversely, for the narcissist, the anxiously attached person represents his or her own suppressed desires for attachment and dependency. One could further argue that for a true narcissist, no distinction is made between real self, ideal self and ideal object. Which leads them to believe they don't need anyone (avoidant and dismissive). But in order to maintain this illusion (fusion of Real-Self, Ideal-Self, Ideal-Object) they need new supply. A close relationship threatens this illusion. Because after a while a non-ideal object (nobody is perfect) ultimately threatens this fusion of Real-Self, Ideal-Self and Ideal-Object. Therefore they have to become dismissive and avoidant - because their self-perception or self is truly threatened. With vulnerable, inverted narcissism, one could think that this illusion does not exist and therefore does not form pathological narcissism. Which is why inverted narcissism is described in the literature as much more curable. This also explains why you have more experience with anxious people. Though i would argue, that inverted narcissism largely correlates with fearful avoidant...Anyways anxious attached go into therapy, can admit to themselves that there are problems, that they need to work on something. They need to learn that their own narcissistic needs are not inherently bad, but a natural human need. That they can give things to themselves... When you describe dissmissive avoidant, you are largely describing a securely attached human who is careful. Dismissive avoidant has an extreme focus on the self because close relationships are not trusted. And, as you correctly say, the focus is on the need for significance. The narcissist revolves around himself. It's a pretty funny and idealized description of the dismissive attachment style you're giving here. It's actually pretty idealized?!

[@heck4984]

ty

[@ShimmerSoulSong]

Can narcissist feel compassion for people with physical hurt but not emotional hurt? Can a DA? Thr DA I know felt bad for someone physically aching but seemed to have no empathy for my feelings and vulnerability.

[@cherylthompson2731]

My DA boyfriend felt bad for his wife w Cancer but, not for any emotional pain. Almost like he is autistic.

[@barbarasmith8504]

Hi character wise is it common for the dissmissive avoidant to triangulate their partner, and are DAs self centered, holding long term grudges, feeling envious of others and giving the silent treatment. Are these common characteristics of a DA or am i leaning more toward Narcissism. Im feeling that im dealing with a covert vulnerable type narcissist with DA characteristics.

[@resueah7257]

Sounds like narcissism moreso, especially if the silence comes from punishing ('treatment') vs retreat to fill their tank

[@piuli1418]

Well explained! But how does a sociopath differ from those both?

[@user-yv1fh3fc8y]

I reckon they could very well have the characteristics of both or maybe meet the criteria for one or both diagnoses.

[@theonlydjtopcat]

Narcissists also LOVE to say that they are empaths, which is actually a paradox since they lack true empathy. It's part of their magical thinking in their distorted minds that they are extra special. People can be empathic, there is not such thing as a true empath, this was likely a word made up by drum roll.... a NARCISSIST! lol

[@crystalcleveland756]

Covert narcissist, also vulnerable Narcissist, they can play the victim and they can not necessarily like the spotlight in the same way as a overt narc. Covert narcissist are often much harder to detect. How can u tell dismissive avoidant and covert narcissist?

[@13parse]

How often do u see borderline/vulnerable narcissistic (not necessarily NPD) who r also anxious preoccupied? I'm not demonizing any1, just hoping 2 help. We have a child together, who detached from his father around 2 yrs old & won't allow any affection from his grouchy dad, so I would love 4 them 2 be closer & be able 2 trust his father enough 2 accept his dad's affection & admit however much he does trust. He's 10 now & his dad & 1 separated 4 yrs ago, because of his chauvinistically dominant decisions, considering no1 else.

[@rafaelrodriguez4941]

Reading all these comments just make me feel worse lol. Ppl just feel bad for eachother bc they have to deal with others that have Dismmisive Avoidance so I'm just left proving myself right in my thought process.

[@suzywilliams4424]

Thank you for this video. What kind of questions should be asked to find out if a person has empathy?

[@keeskoekert6358]

I cant believe what some people ask on here. This is basic knowledge.

[@amy-leedavies3237]

@@keeskoekert6358 rude.

[@NonyaSmith]

@@amy-leedavies3237 Very. Geesh.

[@mousumibiswas1]

I'm feeling sorry for you Suzy dear. We are so unfortunate that we don't even know how empathy looks like or feels like when it is received.

[@nadineatkinson7956]

What happens when they are both depending on the circumstances?

[@audtasticgirl]

Please update this to discuss covert because this is only an overt classic narcissist

[@marryjane1684]

Omg this is causing me anxiety my stomach is in knots because I rather just come out and say it because I feel like I'm walking on egg shells I'm a fearful avoidant . I rather be direct and let his feelings get hurt a lil but then proceed form him watch these videos . I feel really uncomfortable beating around the bush .

[@ambivalent5842]

Tais is describing more of an overt narc. The negligent or vulnerable present very differently.

[@RecreationalUseOnly]

The more you explain a dismissive avoidant, the more they seem like a narcissist. Everything is done out of fear and ego and unhinged emotions.

[@sal2975]

Did you not watch the video? The differences are clearly defined. 🤣🤣🤣

[@cjstats1514]

@@sal2975 Not really. Clinically speaking, they are on the same narcissistic spectrum. And the somethings causes both disorders. Avoidants may not be NPD. But they are narcissistic by definition. Especially in intimate relationships. Biggest diff is Avoidants are better in other aspects of relationships. As in friends and Co workers. Both shld be avoidant if possible for intimate relationships.

[@sal2975]

@@cjstats1514 I mean, wouldn't an avoidant avoid you anyway because they're people that are really timid and shy?

[@cjstats1514]

@@sal2975 They aren't timid and shy. They are just distant in relationships. They may come across shy in relationships. But not in everyday life. There's a diff between a shy person and an avoidant.

[@sal2975]

@@cjstats1514 But what's causing them to be distant? Their fear of vulnerability. Why do they fear it?Because their anxiety overwhelms them and they avoid people to avoid that feeling. That's timidity and shyness around emotional vulnerability.

[@phil1353]

Do dismissive avoidant people cheat when they’re drunk on vacation in another country? Do the lie and manipulate?

[@L.Hodson]

This is so dificult… because there’re narcisist’s who aren’t grandiose…

[@crystalcleveland756]

But what about COVERT NARCISSIST- they do not present the same way typical narcissist show up.

[@jenaya_laila2442]

O.K so my ex was definitely Narcissistic and not dismissive-avoidant. I had literally just asked this exact question under a different video of yours an hour ago..