DIY | How to set up saddle fore and aft (No hands method part 2)

This DIY series outlines how to perform a bike fit on your own. This episode focuses on how to set up saddle set back (fore and aft). We expand on the no-hands method (aka The Naruto run test), and also explore examples of poorly adjusted saddles and how the body compensates for this.
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Keywords: physio burnaby vancouver bike fit physiotherapy assessment physiotherapist dry needling IMS gait assessment biomechanics manual therapy IMS acupuncture exercise prescription rehabilitation

[@bluedog5725]

Yes, this is a great method to determine a good fore/aft position. What it also reveal is whether people are sitting properly on their saddle. Many new'ish riders try to sit on their glutes on top of the wide part of the saddle as opposed to allowing their hips to naturally roll forward and carrying weight on their crotches. Yup, most of your body weight rests on your crotch. Once you figure that part out (and find a comfortable saddle height and tilt) then you can execute the no-hands test and optimize fore/aft.

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Thanks for your input blue dog!

[@fnmaristela]

Darn pretty good content and precise

[@expertz]

Should I set the saddle height first, then the fore-aft, or the fore-aft first? This is because when adjusting the fore-aft I may have to adjust the saddle so I'm just asking if it's better doing this first? I also get a lot of weight on my hands on long rides and lower back pain so could moving the saddle back fix both? Thanks for the very informative and useful video.

[@31.8mm]

yes i find this method is good way to know where's ur balance point should be on most cycling disciplines, if u got trainer or flat safe road around. in fact i don't want to use kops method even for starting point, and i think one thing to remember when doing this test is start the saddle tilt on level position or near level for better final fore aft adjustment

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey 31.8mm, I agree 100%. Thanks for your input!

[@tefltoulouse]

yes this is the way. I find that if you do the "hands balancing over the hoods without falling forward", and then do the "not feeling like you're pushing the pedals from behind" test, you are within 5mm of what is good for you. Not sure about "middle of rails" though, as seatposts and seats are so different. Also saddle height needs to be about right (heels scraping pedals) of course. Saddle needs to be level too (at least for the test - you can always nose it up or down by max 3mm later)

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Thanks for chiming in TEFL Toulouse!

[@craigherriot4026]

So grateful to you for demystifying this subject for me. I am one of those cyclists who is constantly tweaking their set-up trying to achieve that sweet spot on the bike. I think I must have an odd build in that I have a short torso and arms relative to leg length, and so although a 54cm frame size which I ride is most likely the right size for me, I still find that the 100mm stem that came with the bike was way too stretched out for me. I've settled on an 80mm stem now as I feel balanced on the bike with that. Still get extremely numb hands though after about half an hours ride. I don't think there is a solution for this out there for me tbh. I've tried everything to no avail.

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Thanks for your input Craig! Have you trialed some changes the position and shape of your handlebars/hoods? To reduce numbness in your hands is to try to increase the total surface area that your palm contacts your handlebars/hoods. If you're still getting numb hands after getting the saddle fore-aft correct, try working on your core strength.

[@involuntarysoul3867]

some saddles have slanted rails that takes account into the height difference between fore and aft

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Very handy feature!

[@le0fonzagoric164]

Thanks for the vid...now onto trainer!

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Thanks for supporting the channel Le0!

[@AthelstanEngland]

No pain or aches but I constantly find myself slipping forward on the saddle and have to adjust. Tried tilting the saddle backwards but that becomes uncomfortable on the crotch. It's an old rigid Marin MTB riding mainly flat trails (not many hills around here) some road. Overall a great bike but this is only issue.

[@ashleyhouse9690]

I'm 6' 4" (193cm) tall and I don't know if I have particularly long body but even with a 25mm layback seat post and the saddle all the way back on the rails I still fall forwards with the "no hands" test. I'm not overweight or muscular either, especially in the upper body.

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey Ashley, thanks for supporting the channel. If you cannot pass the "No hands test", it could be one of a few things: 1) Saddle too far forwards 2) Saddle too high 3) Dysfunction in your hips and/or low back Without having a look at your movement patterns, it's difficult to know how functional you are. Since you are on the taller side it could very well mean that you need a 30mm offset seatpost, or a saddle with a longer rail. Some people need it, and some people don't. Check out a follow up video I just posted about saddle setback: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ganKgIGIe5tlbrM

[@HennieBours]

I changed my PRO STEALTH SADDLE for an SMP SADDLE which gives much more support to your body and pelvis and that way decreases the pressure on the hands. You can also move it much further backwards on the rails because they are much longer. That way you normally can pass the test.

[@Senluis13]

Wow! Premium bike for a great price!

[@DevelopingNL]

Nice video. What about KOPS? When im comfortable, my KOPS is not right.

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey Martin, knee over pedal spindle (KOPS) is a good place to start for setting up saddle set back. I think it's a popular method since it's easy to communicate how it's done and you can easily perform/replicate it for all your bikes. For a new cyclist or for someone who does not have great body awareness, KOPS is a straightforward and objective method for a great starting point. The downside is that is it does not take into account for your other body proportions possibly other biomechanical issues.

[@prestachuck2867]

Just as EC Physio said. KOPS is only a starting point. Any fit system (Motion capture or not) or bike fitter that/who builds your final position around Knee Over Pedal Spindle or Knee over End of Crank Arm without you passing a balance test to confirm fore/aft positioning, is not helping you. Run far and fast from those systems and fitters. They are just interested in separating you from your money.

[@lordalfa600]

How about TT bikes? Most of the weight is to the front. Does the balance test still work? Or is it a whole different fit?

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hi lordalfa600, this type of set up for fore-aft isn't applicable to a TT set up. On a TT/triathlon bike you take out having to stabilize the wrist and elbow joint. As a result, you can place more of your upper body weight on the front end for a more aerodynamic position without sacrificing any energy holding your weight up.

[@koDiacc]

I have another bike fit question. I feel like my right feet have the cleats further back and my left feet has the weight more on the toes even though the cleats are completely in the right position. Any idea why this is? My pelvis is slightly twisted (not much)

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hi koDiacc, thanks for watching the channel. It's tough to diagnose with such few details, but I'll try my best. It sounds like you have some sort of body asymmetry that may be causing you to drop your left hip with each pedal stroke. Do you have a leg length difference or left pelvis rotated forwards? It could also be a foot length difference. This type of fit issue usually goes beyond what a general DIY KZbin video can provide. It may be worthwhile getting in with a local bike fitter to get your bike dialed in.

[@koDiacc]

Thanks for the reply. No my feet should be perfectly the same length. My left hip drops a bit more because my psoas is a bit tighter there I guess. No real leg length difference I guess. I will try to get in touch with a good fitter. Thanksn

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

If that's the case, it sounds like your saddle might be a touch high. I would try lowering the saddle 3mm at a time until you stop dropping the left pelvis. If you've tried that and you're still not happy, another option is to shim the right cleat in the short term, with the intent to slowly wean off the shim while you work on your muscle imbalances of the hips and low back.

[@koDiacc]

That’s addressing the pelvis tweak. Right. Sure I understand this but the feel feel imbalance is caused by the pelvis you think? Because my left leg feels longer? I don’t feel the pelvis tweak I only feel it in the feet

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

If the saddle is too high, your body will likely drop one hip to compensate for this. With your pelvis is dropping to one side, you're essentially lengthening the leg on that side, and shortening the opposite leg with each pedal stroke. That might cause you to feel like you're pedaling with the cleats in different positions. I'm thinking this because you had mentioned no leg length difference, no foot length difference, and both cleats are set up the same. Again, it's my best hypothesis given the information and without being able to assess it. Best to find a local fitter if the 2 options I had mentioned earlier don't work out. Good luck!

[@jerryavalos9610]

My 2019 bike fit ended up with my saddle pushed all the way back in order to achieve the KOP.. My problem currently is my hands go numb after 30 minutes of riding which is frustrating because it prevents me from putting in long bike rides. I have long and thick torso and shorter legs.

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey Jerry, if your hands are going numb it sounds like you're still placing too much pressure on your hands and upper body. I would trial a seatpost with more setback, and/or shortening and raising your reach to the handlebars.

[@jerryavalos9610]

@@ecphysiotherapy8012 I think your right, FSA K-Force seatposts with 32mm setback will probably help.

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey Jerry, that would probably be the least expensive option. For your next bike, consider looking at a frame with a longer top tube to better match your body's proportions.

[@naufalap]

is this applicable for mountain bikes? I set my saddle all the way to the forward limit and I can still balance my body no problem

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey naufalap, it depends on what type of mountain biking. For example, it doesn't really matter for downhill as the rider will shift their weight around quite a bit anyway throughout the ride. This would be more applicable for riding steady state efforts, like in road cycling or cross-country style routes (forrest paths, paved paths, singletrack or doubletrack paths)

[@naufalap]

@@ecphysiotherapy8012 I'm still training for base cardio so I'm sticking to road for a while, can't afford another bike so I'm stuck with my hardtail

[@marcalvarez4890]

This may or may not help but...When I'm off road, im standing up to pedal high power WAY more often. This uses the muscles in the front of the legs more. So i put my seat further back to use more of the rear leg muscles for those long medium effort slogs. Just something to think about....2 riding positions....and a seat set back to use both sets of muscles.

[@Adventures-and-More]

The No hands test is of no relevance to most people as they don’t have the core strength to do it

[@yjersey]

That was awesome bro. What state are you in? Can u fit me for a bike

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey blue, thanks for supporting the channel. I'm located in Vancouver, BC Canada. Get in touch if you're ever in the area!

[@Senluis13]

Saves so much electricity compared to the heat pump. Wish it was a little less noisy.

[@RawrpunzelHD]

I tend to slide forwards on my saddle. No difference in saddle forwards or backwards. My saddle is leveled at 0*

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Hey RawrpunzelHD, thanks for checking out the video. Do you feel a lot of pressure on your hands/upper body while riding? The first thing to consider is to make sure your seat height is correct, because as you slide the saddle backwards there will be more distance from the saddle to the bottom bracket. So you may be sliding forwards on the saddle to shorten your reach to the pedals. Consider your own height/trunk length and think about whether you have enough set back on your seat post. One more thing you want to consider is the saddle. Even though it looks level, when someone sits on one it may deform and may end up being slightly nose down.

[@DevelopingNL]

Could a saddle all the way back cause overuse in the tibialis anterior?

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

The tib ant still bugging you Martin? Could it be anterior ankle impingement? Have you already had a fitter look at your position and a therapist to provide some more insight into rehabbing that region?

[@DevelopingNL]

@@ecphysiotherapy8012 yes it is. Could it be foam rolling and stretching, that is the cause? It always gets worse after that? I will read about the tibialis ant imp, i have had two bike fits.

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

If foam rolling and stretching isn't helping, then you'll need to figure out what is causing it to stay tight and overworked. Perhaps a local physiotherapist may be able to provide more insight after a biomechanical assessment. The tib ant issue could likely be a symptom of something else happening in the kinetic chain.

[@1bottlefed]

Hate to disagree but your main focus on fore and aft adjustment should be knee loading....or at least that is I was told by some top coaches.

[@garmanl7602]

It's a face reveal?!?! :O

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

Yes indeed :D

[@ozzz3365]

Well, Im not sure i understand or agree with the balance method. I believe the balance issue is relative to the bars position/heith. therefore i suggest to use this method maybe to the reach adjustments. For the saddle fore aft issue, i believe its all relates to the p o w e r of the stroke: If your sitting too forward i feel that your upper front muscle - quads will be the only one to work. If your sitting too backward, The feeling will be that youe pushing the pedals forward instead of down direction while feeling weak from that. There is a point in the middle, when you can feel your entire leg is working in the right direction. This point is what were looking for and im not sure there is a real method to measure it but only by asking the rider himself Still investigating.

[@Adventures-and-More]

It’s also irrelevant unless you also address saddle height first

[@diegoeleazar9154]

The video is about fore and aft position. Assuming you found your seat height then this video is for you

[@jeffreyhdixon]

Dr. Steven Schrader with the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH): “When you sit on a bike the pressure on the perineum increases sevenfold. Riders using a classic saddle place 1/4 of their body weight on the perineum. The amount of oxygen reaching the *** typically falls 70% to 80% in 3 minutes. A guy can have his oxygen levels drop 100% but he doesn’t know it. After half an hour he goes numb. Saddles with splits or holes may make matters worse because they have smaller surface areas, and hence the rider’s weight presses harder on less saddle. The arteries in the perineum run laterally and therefore they come under more pressure when they come into contact with the cutouts’ edges. It is no longer a question of whether or not traditional bike saddles causes ED, but what are you going to do about it?” @t @t

[@ecphysiotherapy8012]

From the literature (link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01363-z), you're quite right about pressure on the perennial soft tissue. According to the article, it's best to use a no-nosed saddle, stand up every 10min, or use a recumbent style bike. For a lot of road cyclists, using a recumbent is not allowed in gran fondos/sportives, races etc and using a no-nosed saddle may not be very good as there is less stability on the saddle. Standing every 10 min may be a realistic option. Issues with these studies is there's generally no control for whether the bike/saddle was properly sized/fitted. Anecdotally though, a lot of saddle related issues can be alleviated with a good bike fit. There are loads of saddle options to find one that causes the least amount of pressure. Check out saddle companies like ISM and SQLabs. When sitting on the saddle, the pressure should be on the ishial tuberosities/ischial ramus and not so much on the perineum/soft tissue.

[@jeffreyhdixon]

@@ecphysiotherapy8012 Wrong on the bike fit. You are still working with a faulty paradigm so the best one can hope for is reduction. And as I have said 1000s of times over the past 21 years: "Congratulations! You went from smoking two packs a day to a pack a day. But you are still smoking a pack a day!" Wrong on the stability except for on very steep windy descents. Sold 40,000+ saddles never had anyone say they went down on our seat. Maybe with someone else's but not on Spongy Wonder. We sell out seats one at a time and I have spoken and back and forth emailed with 10,000s. It's very basic: every horned or nosed saddle will give you damage. I know about ISM - we sell a tonne to riders who bought their product. Appreciate your notes but look - no one has spoken with more riders and doctors, etc., etc. Gynecologists, Urologists, Neurologist who know their stuff simply don't don't recommend a traditional or "modified" traditional (because that is what they are) to anyone. But they recommend the Spongy Wonder. And they ride it themselves. These are the facts.

[@dvdp4513]

Dear Jeff, a lot of words. To me, when it comes to saddles.... its all about trial and error.

[@jeffreyhdixon]

@@dvdp4513 Sorry but that is incorrect. It is about the pressure points. In other words it is about where pressure is applied to your body. If pressure is applied on the 'junk', prostate, tailbone and perineum damage is caused. This should be obvious to anyone. We have a 2 x4 test. We take ten inches of 2 x 4 and round of two near edges and put it up on edge. We invite people to sit on it and in 21 years no one has agreed. You see people instantly recognize that sitting on such an object will put pressure where they don't want it and yet they do more or less the same riding a single platform seat. I am sorry but you simply do not know what you are talking about.

[@dvdp4513]

@@jeffreyhdixon so glad you do. I’m only stating that in search for a nice ride, you need to be lucky not to have to buy lots of saddles. I find a whole lot of comfort in my Fizik with a hole. Have a nice day.

[@timwolf5742]

If your falling forward, your saddle is too far back.

[@Adventures-and-More]

Absolute nonsense to set fore/aft before height