Saddle Fore and Aft for pedalling efficiency | My experience

[@fede1275]

I actually considered the changes in saddle height while moving the saddle on the rails, but cut it off the video. If anything I could not feel a change on the height and almost felt higher and not lower when I had the saddle further forward. I would need to look more into this aspect. Ciao!

[@eziosanci]

It was not easy to find the optimal position. I spent much time to try more and more settings but finally I have a good compromise for comfort and efficiency. Very interesting video!

[@jasminkecanovic5244]

Thank you man!! After watching your video, I adjusted my cleats and saddle position forward by 1-2 centimeters, and I achieved much more power on the next ride. I think I've found my true bike position.

[@fede1275]

I'm very happy to hear that!! That's great!

[@jasminkecanovic5244]

@@fede1275 Here's my feedback after several intense workouts: I'm feeling much more strain in my hamstring after cycling. I'm experiencing some discomfort in the front of my knees, almost like it's tight from the effort. Do you think I need to give my body more time to adjust to the change, or have I shifted forward too much?

[@fede1275]

@@jasminkecanovic5244 I had a similar transition period, where I felt the strain on the forward part of the knee. It could be you have moved a little more forward, maybe you could raise a bit the saddle to compensate. It's not easy to judge, as the body would also feel the different position anyway. I did smaller adjustments until I found a good balance, still within a forward position

[@TBradFashionModel]

This video is far better than the bike fit videos out there, because it's action, not concept. I ride a TREK Discovery, 2006, dream bike and was never fitted. After all this time, I'm exploring why I have pain here and there. It's the smallest adjustments, and what feels correct that Federico was explaining. 😁

[@fede1275]

Thank you!

[@michaelanderson6764]

Another great video for cyclist like me trying to fine tune my own bike fit. I've followed your other advice and it's made me more comfortable and efficient.

[@fede1275]

Great to hear that!!

[@cb465]

nothing beats that last tweak to suddenly feel dialled in on the bike. I usually make adjustments on the road in mm increments if needed. Also, bikes can feel different on different days due to muscle stiffness, sitting at the desk all day and other activities. If you do other off the bike exercise and get tight hamstrings or soreness, don't change the bike position, it's just you being stiff. I've had days where the bike feels amazing and then the next morning it's like someone elses bike. I've started doing calisthenics off the bike and it has helped alot with feeling good/reducing back and neck soreness on the bike.

[@fede1275]

Absolutely, it's exactly like that. Yesterday's ride was amazing as the position was perfect!

[@maartenvandenberg4774]

After setting up the proper height, I always used the KOPS method, now that I'm in my 4th bike which is a more aero one I noticed suddenly that I was using only the pointy end of the saddle. As a result I've set my saddle quite far forward and used short rides to tweak this. As a result I'm still further forward than with KOPS but not as far as when I started. Your example of the leg position and thoughts on pushing for power is spot on, this is exactly how I did it. I'm using the full saddle now and my petit bum is happy for it. Great video as always, cheers.

[@fede1275]

Yes, the improvement is tangible. I did today a 100Km ride, I felt great in the tweaked position!

[@dlbutler]

Thank you for broaching this important topic. I've found that saddle height, angle, and fore/aft position are critical, and that minor "experiments" can result in painful conditions lasting weeks. In addition to knee, hip and back pain, I've enjoyed new and intimate hot spots and bruises due to changes in pressure on the saddle. Once dialed in, though, it's liberating.

[@danielhastings3707]

Thank you. For me, with shorter legs and a longer torso, saddle fore aft has been (and remains) critical for better power transfer and more importantly comfort. Took me a while to work this out. That seat tube angle is arguably the most important! I ended up with zero setback seat posts on some frames just to get far enough over the BB! I wish had of worked it out sooner

[@fede1275]

Absolutely! I was lucky to get a Canyon Ultimate with a relatively steep seat tube angle and little seatpost setback. It got me in the right zone straight away.

[@theovannieuwenhuizen5756]

"No need to get angry" when it rains, quite funny 🤣. But great video. Again. Thanks! Best from the Netherlands.

[@fede1275]

😀😀

[@martyjoseph9507]

As i struggle to fully understand what differences the changes mean it's extremely helpful to have a video like yours to animate where and what I'm looking for. I'm a new bicyclist just looking to commute, but I'm currently on the wrong machine because that's what I happen to have, small frame causing all kinds of difficulty. But my mind is growing to better understand my next bike along with my endurance as I cover 20-30 mile rides. Thank you

[@fede1275]

Thank you! Hopefully you will get on the right bike soon!

[@kpsig]

I have experimented a lot, with road and off-road bikes. The key points for me are: 1. The saddle must be good for me to move forward-aft, to either concentrate on different muscles or release myself from localized butt pain :-) 2. I need to have its height at the position where my leg is almost straight to the pedal at the cranks lower point. I do this bare foot, so the shoe+cleats with no spacers brings my leg at a good/safe stretch point. 3. My most efficient pedaling is with my calve perpendicular to the ground. However, see point 1. 4. I always have the saddle nose very slightly down, but this depends on my personal preference and anatomy down there. In any case, your comments are the best in KZbin. I have watched many “specialists” and never got their approach. You speak with experience, well done.

[@fede1275]

Thank you! I feel I'm agreeing with your points, not sure about number 2 though. With a straight leg are you not loosing some pressure at the bottom of the pedal stroke?

[@kpsig]

@@fede1275 You are right, here. I do the test bare foot. I use the shimano cleats with no spacers so at the end I am at a good point.

[@gidzlopez]

Thank you for sharing your experience

[@WheelersAtLarge]

I've always used the 'shove right forward and see want happens' technique. So far so good. Width and angle is a whole other story...😁

[@g.fortin3228]

This is educational and most likely this explains my tendons feeling like they do at times.. going to make some small incremental changes. Thanks !!

[@fede1275]

Small changes matter!!

[@paulmorrison30]

Excellent work as always 👌🏾✊🏾👍🏾

[@fede1275]

Thank you Paul!

[@paulmcknight4137]

Spot on, Federico. Notice how pros move to the nose of the saddle, "on the rivet," when climbing, chasing down a breakaway, or sprinting? Putting the crank under the rider adds considerable power. It feels so good. Seat tube angles have a lot to do with saddle setback. 73 degrees places the saddle further back, good for the quads, but the hips aren't centered and the upper body bounces around at high cadences. 74 degrees, one degree forward, puts the legs up over the crank. Trackies use 75 degree seat tubes and just stomp on the pedals at high cadences, the whole body in play. I have both bikes, a touring bike, 73/73, meant to be ridden moderately, and a racing bike, 74.5/75, meant to be ridden hard. Going from one to the other is like a sedan to a sports car, a true cheap thrill. Keep us informed on your experiementing!

[@fede1275]

Yes, definitely the seat tube angle is one of the most important measure of the geometry. Few mm make a lot of difference.

[@3lfaromeo]

bravo champ, I hope to figure this out for myself in the near future.

[@fede1275]

👍👍

[@MrPrax28]

Great video as always 👏even if here and there I have some difficulties to understand (my English is not so strong). Never the less I think I got you primary idea. Anyway I'm waiting for my new Pro Stealth saddle and this will be for sure one of my future concerns. Thank you Federico! Ciao 🙂

[@mikespadafora9077]

From what I was told from a fitter and reading is that if you move the saddle forward, you need to raise the saddle and vice versa

[@fede1275]

I know, but for some reasons I did not feel being lower. Possibly due to the saddle angle moving it forward had me sitting in a higher part of the saddle, almost as compensating it.

[@larrymcgoldrick3471]

@@fede1275 He is absolutely correct. Feel or not, you must raise the saddle. That is why you are feeling more quads. Level that saddle too. Block of flat wood with spirit level on it that spans all the way from front to back. When you move saddle forward, raise the saddle by almost same amount. I think you will be amazed.

[@fede1275]

@@larrymcgoldrick3471 I can follow the saddle height increase concept, might give it another go. The spirit level really depends on the shape of the saddle: with some designs that sweep back you could end up with a raised nose with that method. I look at levelling where I'm actually sitting.

[@larrymcgoldrick3471]

@@fede1275 As far as the leveling of the saddle, I thought that too, that it may cause a nose high. But most saddle designs have taken this into account. You don't or shouldn't sit on the nose of the saddle. This in a way forces you to sit where you should. My saddle appears to look slightly tilted upward in the front but where I sit is perfect and gives me great comfort. I used to set level just as you do, but once I started doing it this way, by all accounts the correct way, I went from some discomfort after a 100-mile ride to feeling almost nothing. Also, I feel greater power output due to I believe the greater comfort and being able to move the saddle forward where it belongs. Give it a try.

[@fede1275]

@@larrymcgoldrick3471 I ride the same saddle on three bikes and I can feel some differences, I believe I set mine at the very best possible setting on the better Canyon, will see how the other two feel and adjust. There is a GCN recent video on saddle tilt, they seem to have data promoting a negative angle.

[@mmurmurjohnson2368]

Yep, toggle up your strokes, mixed martial arts, me: Forward on saddle + down strokes for spinning, shallow climbs, accelerations Forward on saddle + knees out stomp down strokes for steep climbs, and big gear ring accelerations transition into forward strokes once up to speed Back pos on saddle + forward strokes for cruising flats, and sustained soft peddling big gears

[@abdisaeed6883]

Excellent points 👍

[@fede1275]

Thank you!

[@robertwalkerdine1178]

I currently have my saddle back quite far. As soon as I put it forward slightly I feel a lot of pressure in my hands, and fast decents feel unstable and not as "in control". But I do sometimes find myself out of the saddle and coming back onto the nose. I use the ryden tool also to track any changes. But I always end up with a setback of 20mm behind the BB. Good video though, I love tinkering with my position now I have the ryden tool as I know I can get it exactly back to the previous position.

[@fede1275]

Yes, I love to search for these improvements, however small. In your case, do you also have moved the cleats backwards? I have mine back and love them, but I'm also on 175mm cranks.

[@robertwalkerdine1178]

@@fede1275 yes I do. I found I preferred them back, quite by accident lol. I'm on 165 cranks. I'm quite short 🤣

[@1000750]

Aloha from Maui, I have never messed with this position on my newest bike but might want to try, when putting down power I tend to inch forward to the front of the seat maybe I should just move it up a tab and sit normal. Worth a try I guess. 🤙

[@fede1275]

Some fine tuning might be needed, hopefully without adding weight on the handlebar or pressure on the knees!

[@leftywedge]

Hi Federico. The way I found the proper for/aft position of my saddle is to perform the “Naruto test”. Obviously after setting the cleats back on my shoes and getting the right saddle hight. It’s a controversial topic. Lot’s have been said and written on it. I guess as long as the cyclist is confortable and happy with the position, that’s all that matters. And by the way, your Montreal fan is still 😡 that you did not inform you were in town last summer. Just kidding! 😂😂. Great information as alway. Salute.

[@fede1275]

Yes, I was in a good position before, with not too much pressure on the handlebars. I just wanted to see if some fine tuning could get me more power. As per Montreal, I guess you don't forget easily, as your number plates say! Next time! 😄😄

[@tefltoulouse]

Excellent. Would be interested in the whole "weight on arms" aspect of all this too. I have to be really far back to feel comfy If I want to do a 3 hour ride on the flat, which is a shame because I definitely feel like i'm "pedalling from the back" as Fede says here.

[@fede1275]

I believe you can still be centered and not feel too much weight on the arms, as long as you have the correct saddle height. The power transfer from the legs should stabilise the position and even with a forward rotated pelvis you should not fall forward. I actually feel comfortable with a long stem and a lower front end in this case

[@zaahierstanley955]

When moving the saddle forward like that then should have moved it up as well. I think it is something like for each 3mm forward it's like 1mm up or is it the other way around. That would explain the front of the knee hurting

[@fede1275]

I am not entirely comfortable with that ratio, I know it is mentioned widely, but I could not apply it properly. When running a slightly downward tilt on the saddle, its shape also affects the height and where you end up sitting if you moved it on the rails. It could as well be, but I don’t think I was low enough for the pressure on the knee to be felt, I believe it was more of the changed angle for the push on the pedal stroke. I always fine tune the saddle height based on feel on the pedals and on the pressure on the seat. But I’ll keep investigating!

[@tomrachellesfirstdance7843]

Fyi, my wife hates you now. I tried to convince her i needed another bike because you said its a good idea to try setting them up differently....it did not work 😂

[@fede1275]

Happy to help my friend 😂😂

[@MitchVanVit]

Love your voice ! For the bike fitting I'm a freak, can't stay a week (since 2012!) without changing at least a setting ! So I'll only talk about my last 2 weeks changes > Tried very far back saddle on my last 2 cyclo-cross races (so lowered too), the 1st was flat, super muddy so super slow, LOVED the feeling of power seated, the 2nd had a long climb, where I felt like pure SH#T from the 1st meter on of the climb ! Same position, but like night and day due to terrain... All in all, in my XP, any adjustment should be done IN CONDITION, for the purpose, on a meddley of the route/ speed that reflects what/how you'll ride, and on your most steady physical form... NEVER think outside will be like on a trainer. Ciao!

[@fede1275]

Thank you! Definitely your position is a balance that would need to work for both flat and hills riding. They say Pogacar adjusts the fit depending on the stage, but not sure it's true.

[@MitchVanVit]

@@fede1275I highly hope it is true, like for his beloved rim brakes he's a smart one, like Mohoric is (dropper seatpost) ! I bet the next big saddle inovation will be a fore-aft adjustment system "IN-RIDE" (that would have to proportionally adjust height too) ^^

[@fede1275]

@@MitchVanVit absolutely, I thought about it as well, but I must have heard it somewhere. For me it would be even more beneficial than the dropper

[@Markelton883]

Great video Fede, I think we all play around with fore and aft positions in search of that optimum position but seldom do we really find it, even when we get really close we can’t help but alter it again.. on a different subject Fede, do you use heart rate as a metric, I don’t think I’ve heard you mention heart rate in any of your videos and I’ve watched them all, it would be interesting to share your thoughts on the subject. I have used a heart rate strap for the last 4 years but now for no particular reason I don’t bother and just ride my bike based on feel. Regards Mark

[@fede1275]

Thank you! I don't use a heart sensor or a power meter. At the moment I like to ride how I feel it, maybe I'll change my mind in the future. Every time I looked at a power meter I ended up upgrading something else!

[@Gledii]

Frederico. I´ve watched several bike fit videos in youtube and a consensus is that once you move the saddle Fore/Aft, you would need to adjust the saddle height accordingly which can help to reduce the knee extension you are mentioning. have you tried that as well? Other thing i noticed is that the whole thing is really like a spider web of parameters: i had to shift my saddle all the way back due to excessive weight on my hands as well loss of balance. Some say that the saddle Fore/aft is about the center of mass. by adjusting mine back, i had to decrease the saddle height and also change a little the clit position (following your previous sugestion). its overall a very complicated topic and i think we will be chasing the perfect fit forever :P

[@fede1275]

Definitely it is all so interlinked that when you change something you would need to revisit the whole set up. I like to be relatively low at front, rotate the pelvis forward and push the pedals in a more aggressive position. When I moved the saddle forward I tried to also adjust the saddle height, but it was not easy to get a correct position again. I had to do small adjustments to get the balance I like

[@NeRR2]

I need to be far behind KOPS to balance (XC MTB). Then the saddle tilt angle is also a factor, hope eventually I'll dial it in 😅

[@fede1275]

Make sense. I believe the straighter you are with your back, the further behind KOPS you would be. In an aggressive road bike position you will be over KOPS.

[@LittleJulio.]

Great video, funny I watch same KZbinrs. I noticed your commuter Ultimate appears to have a zero setback seatpost vs other Ultimate. Do you feel a difference in comfort and did that influence setback any?

[@fede1275]

Yes, as they both are CF SL 7, they come with a seatpost with very little setback. In hindsight I'm happy it was like that. When I got the Roval Alpinist seatpost on the better Ultimate to save weight, I tried to replicate the position, but there is always room for fine tuning.

[@jkk916]

I have very forward position on my bicycle (to the point that it is not anymore compliant to UCI rules with the saddle I use). Zero issues long-term. That way I can get myself lower because it opens up hip angle. If hip mobility is limiting factor that determines your position you might also consider more forward saddle position for this reason. But there might be tradeoff. I feel like I have difficulties using all my aerobic capacity on bicycle because some of my muscles fail to soon. I wonder if more backwards saddle position could slightly improve muscle recruitment. I don't believe the difference could be large though and I would rather bet on improved aerodynamics. Additionally, this position reduces self-stabilizing of your body on your seat and induce movement towards nose of the seat which can aggravate pressure on the knees and hands. If you have problems with your knees I would suggest you try to make better, more solid interface between your hands and your handlebar (for example by using different shape of handlebar, by changing angle of the hoods, by slightly shorter reach) and try to knowingly recruit more upper body muscles to be more stable. You can better counter forward momentum and stabilize yourself if you grab your drops boxing-style and if your hoods are a bit steeper. Edit: I noticed your saddle is tilted downwards quite a bit. I certainly know that would never work for me the way I and my bicycle are set. Maybe it also started to contribute to your discomfort. I would suggest you try to slightly reduce the saddle tilt and if you cannot do that comfortably on this saddle, try some another one, preferably one with more contour that sets you in place.

[@fede1275]

I believe I could get used to an even more forward position and maybe the knee would adjust as well, but I use a lot the hamstrings in the bottom part of the movement and I did not want to lose that support. That is why I tried to get the right balance as I feel faster overall that way rather than relying on the quads too much.

[@sapinva]

Easier way is to adjust the saddle so you can just take your hands off the bars without face planting. That also will naturally be where you are balanced fore and aft through the knee and hips. This is for being comfortable and efficient long term. For competition, there is no limit how far forward you can go. Really comes down to how much pain in your hands you can tolerate, and how long before your knee cartilage is gone. The issue with the knees is not knees over toes, it's knees over toes in an artificial position, pushing the opposite direction with your feet than you would when standing knees over toes.

[@fede1275]

Yes, I can understand. I am now balanced with the weight on the handlebar and on top of the pedal as I need, not too far forward and not unnecessarily backwards.

[@milovacc1195]

at the end of the video , where the straight edge is placed along the seat tube , it looks as though the nose points at 20 degrees . wouldn't that position throw you forward and make your hands feel excess pressure ?

[@fede1275]

It might be down to the rear stand, I have a slight downward tilt, but not excessive.

[@samguan5236]

Been playing with my Ultimate in dialling in the fit, probably may end up going to a fitter. I’m 172cm and have an XS Ultimate and I ‘feel’ a bit stretched with my hand on the top of the hood, I tend to place my hands 2cm behind the hood for upright comfort. The bike comes with 80mm stem but I’m wondering if 70mm would make it more ‘comfortable’ or is it just my body isn’t good for racing geometry rather an endurance bike.

[@fede1275]

Interesting, I would have thought you might need a S rather than XS. What was Canyon recommended size? Are you using a saddle that allows a rotated pelvis? I wonder if the saddle keeps you upright and backwards and it's not a reach issue.

[@samguan5236]

good point, Canyon calculator says XS but borderline S... I'm wondering if it's my saddle tilt that I'm very conscious of putting pressure on the front private part to avoid numbness that I'm avoiding pressure and reaching at the same time... i see all your saddles are tilted downwards... any recommendations there?

[@fede1275]

@@samguan5236 definitely I would use a saddle with a cut out that allows free forward pelvis movement. I found my one in the Novus Boost, but they have discontinued it. It was Selle Italia version of a Selle SMP. I believe most of the time reach problems are saddle related, when it forces you to rotate the pelvis backwards.

[@xuchenglin6256]

Just gone through the same process. My bike originally came with a 25mm setback post, and I have long legs, that put me into a very rear sitting position. When I heard about the "down stroke" or "the force is mainly exerted through that downward motion", I was always confused, because my experience with pedaling is almost "forward" -- there's no distinct "down" for me. Where is the down-stroke exactly??? Until one day I dramatically changed the position and suddenly I just "get it" what the "down" means. A lot of folks there they don't have much power so this might not be a problem for them, and that's why I just got along with the OEM setup for so long without actually having a problem. However when your power goes up, you'll find there's counter weight problem -- in order to pedal "forward" without your body moving backward, you have to find something to hold on. This is basic physics 101 in action, every force has to be a counter force there and if not the net force is not zero and the object moves. If you seat too rearward, you'll find when you exert some serious force, you'll have to pull the handle bar back so that you stay in the saddle. It's a natural movement that many people not even notice while they are doing it unconsciously. In these situations you are better to just use your body weight. Standing pedaling is a good example, as you just put your body weight on that pedal and the weight will take care of everything else. What I find is with a proper fore-aft position, when riding in crouched aggressive position, your center-of-weight or at least the rear part of that should be directly over the pedal's downstroke path. In this way it just unweights the saddle area, and the hands -- that's what those fitters said and those pros experienced. Unfortunately a lot of casual riders just never have the power to experience that. You don't really put a lot of weight through your hands and butt. That's why riding in the rivet actually is a thing. And why aggressive position is not that hard if you actually ride hard. I remember that once the "aero bar" become a thing in the Olympics for the first time, that rider who used it to break records said that these bars give him another leverage -- that's when you are too powerful that your body weight is not enough to act as a counter weight. The same holds true for the sprint when you aggressively pull the handle bar to put out 1000+ watts. A lot of people just don't get it. A lot of bike fitters too I guess, because not so many of them actually ride fast or aggressive. Now I'm still in that pursuit of the best position. Because the water is further mudded by the saddle height and cleat position. Sometimes the front knee pain is not you are pushing rearwards, it could be just the fact that pushing saddle forward shortens the effective saddle height. However your legs as a linkage system, the relationship is not simply the math Sin(90-yourSTangle). I guess the only way to get it right is just try try try.

[@fede1275]

Great contribution, very well explained!

[@elfboy29]

Was that a bit of Kubrick I heard?

[@somethingwentwrong3298]

It's interesting how time trialists set their saddles well forward, but their weight is supported by their elbows. There may be a trade off here for road bikes.

[@fede1275]

Very good point, definitely on the road bike we need to find the balance that works.

[@Dmxravin]

can you make a video on crank length next pls?

[@fede1275]

It is an interesting subject, but I don't have the relevant experience. I temporarily had 165mm cranks when waiting for a replacement set of my usual 175mm and I hated the shorter ones. I can see everyone now is praising shorter cranks, but I like to grind and I am very happy with the 175mm. For sure some can benefit from the reduced length, but I suspect it is not the magic solution it is described.

[@Dmxravin]

@@fede1275 I believe that if you’re a shorter rider with a shorter inseam length then you need shorter cranks regardless if the bike is too small or large.

[@rohanisidore1890]

Use flat pedals. You could adjust while you ride

[@fede1275]

I like the clipless engagement, especially standing up on the pedals.