Diy Tesla Powerwall ep49 48v APC UPS The XL Version!

[@charlestatakis9363]

It's going to be a HUGE time saver for many of us who will install a power wall/emergency power backup. I look forward to your procedures and development. At some point when you do decide you may want to grid tie the entire system, it would be nice if we all knew the typical permitting requirement with the utility and how you'd design the controls so the powerwall might supplement power even during night time if you decide to go that route. Thanks for sharing!

[@AveRage_Joe]

You are welcome!!! Mine will be more along the lines of a back-up install but will use it daily. Its possible later on down the road that I would grid-tie the system but it might be way down the road. Ill need to get a lot more solar before I go down that road. If it happens Ill be sure to share 👍

[@KSSilenceAU]

im Using a SUA2200RMXLI3U in my Lab rack connected to a bank of external batteries, these units are designed to take up to 5 or 10 "Packs" of external batteries (an APC External pack consists of TWO of the same Battery Modules that the UPS itself uses). they will quite happily run at rated load nonstop. As it is with the option for up to 10 packs officially their runtimes can extend beyond 24 / 48 hours officially without issue. the Tower XL Units will also take 5 or more Packs as well and run fine for hours on end. Tower units are 24v or 48v depending on rating. i also have an SURT2000XLI in my Production rack which also uses external batteries at 48v. SURT Units 3KVA and above using 192v instead of 48v FYI. SUA XL Internal battery pack would be 18AH @ 48v, so an external pack for that model is 36AH @ 48v, and you can have 10 of those for a total of 378AH @ 48v Officially. SURT 1KVA / 2KVA Internal packs are 9AH @ 48v with external packs being 18AH @ 48v and you can have 10 for 189AH @ 48v officially. You could easilly go beyond that, the only issue would be calibrating the unit to report accurate run times, and the "Battery Constant" can only be tweaked so far. to go beyond 10 packs worth, you would need to experiment in prog mode (CAREFULLY!) with the battery constant to see how far you can crank it up until the Constant maxes out or the run time estimated maxes out, and with some maths derive what the equivilent battery capacity would be and use that as your limit, then your run times should be accurate from get go. These units will also learn current battery capacity as well provided you run them down flat (or use the calibration mode that runs down to 30%) every once in a while (like once every month or few). Both of my units have 40AH @ 48v of external batteries connected, and i have a jumper cable to parrallell them if i need to for extended survivability. the older SUA Series are not as quiet as the newer SURT units, but they handle surges better, and their Watts to VA ratio is better (1980w / 2200VA for my XL, vs 1400w / 2000va for the RT). i will say the RT's are far lighter, quieter, smaller, and probably more efficient. (2.2KVA SUA XL = 3U, 1KVA/2KVA RT = 2U). If you can get your hands on a 5U SUA5000RMXLI5U (230v) / SUA5000RMXL5U (120v) that would be perfect, they are still 48v Units, and they pack 4x 20AH batteries internally.

[@AveRage_Joe]

Whoa!!!! Thats a bunch of useful info there. Thanks!!! I told my recycler that Im always on the look out for the bigger UPS units so he said he will save them for me👍

[@KSSilenceAU]

No Probs, i did edit the comment and clarify a few things, mainly to do with battery pack capacities to include both models and differentiate them so re-read that bit. Considering the size of the battery tray in your XL3K unit you have, you should build up a 48v Pack that fits inside the tray and install it into the unit. i watched some other videos in the series and saw you swapped the pack connectors around on the back. Yes your right they are a different plug, the Internal Pack plug is an Anderson SBS 50 Series, and the rear plug was the more common SB50 / SB120 Series. the SBS Plugs are designed to be finger safe with the contacts set further back to reduce the chance of a finger touching the contact and getting a shock. The 192v SURT units also use these SBS series plugs for that reason, as 192v DC WILL give you quite a whack. (192v is derived from 2x 96v modules in series internally). you should go on ebay and grab a couple of Blue SB50 connectors from there and use those for the rear connections so you can use the factory connections for the internal battery tray. they are very cheap. Also i'd suggest you change the Grey plug Shells on your packs to another colour such as yellow or green, so you cant accidentally plug one of those packs into a 24v unit, as the 24v units use grey SB series plugs. you can get just the plugs or shells for very cheap in bulk numbers and just pop the contacts out and swap them. i would avoid using red plugs as a few legacy APC units and some other brands use Red plugs for 48v / 36v as well. As for the extra mosfets (you refer to them as transistors) you saw on the heatsinks in the XL model, the reason behind that is Increased charging current to allow for charging external battery packs and having a half decent recovery rate when you have a lot of packs connected. adding extra mosfets has a negligible effect on efficiency (couple of percent max either way provided you do it properly) and should place the inverter under less stress if running near the units max rated load for really extended periods day after day. APC Smart UPS SU / SUA units run the inverter in reverse to charge the batteries and they use a duty cycle on the mosfets to control charging current, so if you want, you could do what Knurlgar did with his units and install extra Mosfets and resistors in the spare spots to increase charging current to allow for fast recovery from mains if you need it one day. I would highly suggest if you do that, that you replace the existing Mosfets and control resisitors with new ones that are identical to those being put in as a modification, because different brands of Mosfets / resistors can be slightly different and mixing them in the inverter can result in the magic smoke coming out from being mismatched and not equally sharing the current load. Of Course the new Mosfets / resistors shall have the same ratings and be a direct substitute on paper as the ones there from factory.

[@mimic58]

excellent info really pleased i read this before buying a APC ups for my project , Thankyou for posting i had no idea the XL versions were designed to handle constant operation, I much prefer the idea of one of these ups over a chinese LF inverter (which also costs way more)

[@davidbelyea6887]

@@KSSilenceAU I see you are in aus too how on earth do u know so much about ups's if you where going to use one what model would it be

[@bimmers50e30]

good work man! I've been thinking of doing this for a while. I've horded several UPS's for similar use, But I haven't worked on my project. what i know that can be useful for you: Some of server UPS's don't like to cold start ( start WITH OUT wall power ). Some will cold start but run in modified sine wave until wall power is connected then go pure sine. SOME do run pure sine from the start. When trying to cold start them, turn them on with the power button , but if the don't fully boot /power on then push test button The "heat sinks" on the main power transistors aren't really heat sinks like most people think, so more airflow is better. I've used 1500va UPS before with bigger fans and had them run for hours. Watch the battery draw and power out, some of these things have a minimum usage so one of mine ( i think older) pulled 300 watts regardless of load, I don't remember but test test test :-) there are 100 Amp power meters on amazon www.amazon.com/dp/B01M5CWR2P/ref=sxr_pa_click_within_right_1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=3163805422&pf_rd_r=KM3BQY2M2MPG3MCMMBPK&pd_rd_wg=jEYZP&pf_rd_s=desktop-rhs-carousels&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_w=lTbS4&pf_rd_i=drok+100a&pd_rd_r=3E0Z78BT4CBVTVPAR510&psc=1 i like that one (monitor battery pull) you don't need the APC powerchute software. it just monitors the UPS you can run it with out and watch the LEDS on the face of the UPS also I would use the one that you have one of ( incase it blows you don't hurt the others you may want to stack )

[@AveRage_Joe]

+bimmers50e30 Thanks! You should get on it with your build! Lol ya Ive been hoarding these as well for this project 😆 That is some useful info thanks. Ive thinking about getting one of those meters. Its been in my wish list for months now lol. I might get it when I get some extra cash. My recycler has a Hp ups and its super light. Its a 3000va as well. Do u think that is one like your talking about?

[@bimmers50e30]

I don't have any HP's only APC,tripplite, and Libert . The heavier (due to transformers) the more likely it will be pure sine wave. Those transformers act like a "filter" to clean the power. ( think of cross-over's in speakers) . If you need help using an oscilloscope to look at the power let me know

[@JohnSiler]

All of the APC units do have a hard-wire kit available for the power out. Not sure if you can find them used...but might be something to look for!

[@AveRage_Joe]

+John.Siler I dont have one per say but I have a few ideas floating around 😀

[@tbbw]

For scalability i vote for the XL version. This will allow you to work on a second string of batteries while using the existing one :)

[@AveRage_Joe]

YES!!! I want to beable to easily add another string. Also If I need to remove a string, this will allow for easy swapping 😃

[@lm8012]

The bigger transformers would help on larger loads and better cooling, the extra mosfets assuming same on resistance as the smaller unit will lower heat dissipation. the larger transformer will have a lower efficiency at lower loads. Defiantly a good find but still not an online unit so not intended to run for extended periods of time. You could look up to see what capacity battery pack APC is intending you to connect to it. Go for XL version. I like the poor mans style of power wall :) matches mine.

[@AveRage_Joe]

Yeah good point on the transformers. I guess if the need arises I could always add more to the board. Yeah I got 2 of these bad boys although the other XL might be just a tad bit older by the looks of it. Ya it will definitely be a poor mans Powerwall (to a point lol) Ill have to read up on them.

[@marlberg2963]

Another difference is that the 3U unit did NOT have a network management card which is kind of key to any build that needs to be managed over ethernet. The smaller 2U unit has what appears to be an AP9617 NIC that would allow it to be attached via rj45 connector to switch router or computer to provide snmp management services remotely so that you don't have to be directly attached to the ups to configure or maintain it. Not to mention not having to deal with the CLI over serial connection when you can manage it via web gui.

[@flatearthmic]

You just uh earned yourself a ..... squirrel Sorry, I squirrel...... hahaha I subd. I found your channel researching if my Leibert 6kw 35amp UPS will work for an off grid solar power system for my RV. I’m stoked about saving a ton of $. Your content is awesome and hella funny. Thanks

[@AveRage_Joe]

Thanks man! Yeah Ive been using my apc ups for the last few years and still going STRONG! Only thing I cant do is the 240v stuff. Someday Ill save enough for a real inverter so I can run the 240v stuff but that will be later on!

[@kuhrd]

As you collect UPS units see if you can find any that are a True (Online) UPS. A True UPS is set up to have the inverter always on to power the load directly from the batteries at all times so the inverters tend to be more efficient to counteract the fact that the power from the wall is being stepped down to charge the batteries and feed the inverter rather than having a bypass circuit. A True UPS will have fans that run all the time since they are designed to run the load off the inverter at all times. These APC units use a bypass relay to transfer the power coming in through to the output under normal operation and only transfer to the inverter when power on the input is lost or becomes unstable.

[@AveRage_Joe]

Ok cool. The fans turn on and stay on when powered up. My recycler has a Hp ups thats 3000va and its super light compaired to these.

[@phizicks]

I reckon test them out. see what kind of current drain both have idle and under load as well as on battery.. see which wins out. Also, your larger unit can put more mosfets by the looks of it. but not sure how much more gain you'd get.

[@AveRage_Joe]

Yeah thats an option. I could put more on either. Both had room for more but like you said, not sure how much gain there would be.

[@jspafford]

XL. I’m obsessed with UPSs and I don’t know why. Can you build a LI battery pack for a apc c1500 ups? (The long square ones)

[@korishan]

We want to see you replacement them. Regardless of the reason :P I like the idea of the XL version as it can handle a lot more run time. They may be the same wattage output, but the XL can run longer without overheating as quickly. So, therefore, not only do you get a beefier unit, I think you'd get better efficiency as the unit wont be getting as hot as the smaller units would under the long run time. Heat = inefficiency Another great video from the AJ! :)

[@AveRage_Joe]

Thanks!!! Yeah all good points. I think Im gonna do it!!!

[@DoRC]

My guess is they size the components based on expected runtime. Since the xl has a higher potential battery capacity it needs to be able to handle longer runs. That being said I'm not sure if either one will stand up to long term continuous use (though the xl seems much more likely to)

[@AveRage_Joe]

I agree. Thats what Im here to figure out. If it will work and or last. I have 4 of the 2700watters so might as well try. 😄

[@Oneupthesleevecustoms]

sweet tear down mate

[@AveRage_Joe]

+One up the sleeve customs Thanks Man!!! I love to tear stuff apart!!!

[@imchris1978]

Also leave out the battery box and put a pc power supply and micro atx pc board etc any use it to monitor everything

[@AveRage_Joe]

Thats not a bad idea, Me likey!!!

[@Dingbat217]

chris chester That's a great idea! :-)

[@korishan]

Not a lic of wasted space! :)

[@Chickey]

XL version all the way, that external connection will be so handy.

[@AveRage_Joe]

Hot swap battery packs!!!

[@james10739]

This was a long time ago now but why would you not use the bigger one but if you have room keep both of them in there hooked up and just be able to turn on if you need more power

[@AveRage_Joe]

I was thinking that id be adding more batteries at some point. Also have a plan/idea for a 2nd ups in there!

[@Tiersmoke92555]

DPDT switches and contactors with breakers to make your ATS. I run my APC threw my DIY ATS so if my bank goes down it will flip to utility power.

[@AveRage_Joe]

Ill have to look into that as it runs right up my ally 😃👍

[@OffGridAussiePrepper]

what happened to ur e-xray vission to see thru that fan mount?

[@AveRage_Joe]

LOL, musta left it at work 😉

[@aamr9811]

Can we use it to run big refrigerator..? Will it work with a big 48v battery Bank

[@AveRage_Joe]

How big of fridge? Most likely! Ive been using it for the last 2 years as an Inverter! Have run it at 2700watts also and runs fine. I have a live stream recap video of results in video list.😃🤘

[@kirkb4989]

With the board "fly-bys" I thought I was watching Star Wars 4 (the first one) where they blow up the Death Star!! :-D

[@AveRage_Joe]

+kirkb4989 Lol 😀👍

[@joefl380]

Every time you say queso you should put up a picture of cheese dip and chips. That would be funny

[@AveRage_Joe]

I havent used that term in a while lol but next time I do Ill add the chips and dip!😄🖒

[@KSSilenceAU]

Also if you want 230v (configurable to 220 / 230 / 240v) Units, then make sure they are XLI's not XL's, the "I" in XLI stands for International. the XLI units also use IEC style inputs and outputs instead meaning they are designed to connect to servers, PDU's, transfer switches, etc using just IEC to IEC jumper cables.

[@AveRage_Joe]

You are full of great info👍👍👍

[@buildfrom]

Hi, Apologies should this be a daft question but can an MPPT Solar Charge Controller be used to charge a bank of 18650's directly and is there a particular configuration of 18650's that you would recommend for use with let's say 300W of solar panels please? Thank you.

[@AveRage_Joe]

+Buildfromscratch I would recommend a 48v system because they are more efficient. Yes, you can charge 18650s from a MPPT charge controller. Check out my ch for the charge controller.

[@bigsmile542]

I would try to figure out if one or both are pure sine wave or not..Some upc are modified sine wave.

[@AveRage_Joe]

+bigsmile542 I think I read on the pdf's that they are.

[@xaviera8761]

If you don't mind me asking where are you sourcing the Sua3000rmxl3u?

[@AveRage_Joe]

+Xavier A I get them from a electronic recycler

[@xaviera8761]

The ones out here in Tampa FL suck or I haven’t found the right one yet.

[@emceh]

You should go for XL - efficiency is not a problem as it might be 2-3% difference - this technology is known for years and mastered long time ago.

[@AveRage_Joe]

Ok cool, I was thinking it might be more efficient from the circuitry but your probly right!

[@imchris1978]

Bigger one is the same as my original defo go with the bigger one. Did you get chance to download the acpfix software?

[@AveRage_Joe]

Im thinking so. Im not sure if I tried that software yet. I know I got the powerchute Bis edition to work (finally lol). Ill take a look.

[@Oneupthesleevecustoms]

ive got theem both in 240v versions

[@AveRage_Joe]

Nice! You plan on using them for anything?

[@JoseGarcia-px9xj]

I'm little confuse, you make a powerwall battery , and you are adding a UPS how this work

[@AveRage_Joe]

Im using the ups as a poor mans inverter lol. Im not plugging the ups in as a ups to charge or anything but I have and it works but its not recommended. Just using it as an inverter, does that make sense lol

[@erics5331]

great video, I got a used SU3000RM3U from a client i plan on doing a similar "poor man's power wall" with

[@AveRage_Joe]

Yeah might as well right. It seems to be working pretty good so far😃👍

[@mimic58]

Thanks for doing this video , very informative :-)

[@AveRage_Joe]

You betcha!👍

[@Dingbat217]

Go for the XL version! :-)

[@AveRage_Joe]

Im thinking so!

[@imchris1978]

Acp has built in charger and it can not be disabled and its not good for lithium batteries just something to think about.

[@AveRage_Joe]

I was wondering if it could be disabled or not. Yeah dont plan to use it to recharge unless needed for emergency.

[@davidwood2548]

Wouldn't a proper BMS on the battery packs not allow the use of the built in charger?

[@daweihong]

@@davidwood2548 I'm wondering about this as well.

[@davidwood2548]

@@daweihong I've had a modified (12 volt battery supply) UPS ( charge circuit and buzzer disconnected) running a CPAP In a motor-home for a while. The motor-home house battery supplies the power. If a li-Ion power pack had it's own BMS I see no reason it would not work great in a UPS. I have all the components to do this; but haven't got around to it.

[@daweihong]

@@davidwood2548 Hi David. Thanks for the knowledge. Just out of curiosity, how did you disconnect the charging circuit? My fear is that constantly applying float charge to the BMS will eventually cause it to fail. Thanks again for your help.

[@terrytexas8257]

I wish my electric screwdriver was as fast as yours. ;)

[@AveRage_Joe]

+Terry Texas Its my special speedy screwdriver!

[@rogeratkinstatt1888]

Can I use it as a inverter on a solar panel

[@AveRage_Joe]

You sure can. Thats what I did!

[@rogeratkinstatt1888]

@@AveRage_Joe do a video on the solar panel next please

[@AveRage_Joe]

I have videos from the past that have it!

[@roycoolguy]

Where are u getting the ups's from, I want to get 1

[@AveRage_Joe]

I just get them from a e-recycler!

[@roycoolguy]

@@AveRage_Joe ok thank you bro !

[@OffGridAussiePrepper]

I would test current draw on both units in standby mode and with the same 1kw load like maybe a microwave boiling water. Then see which is more efficient, usually the bigger transformers cud be more efficient. The "transisters" r MOSFETS too :)~, and the BIG ASS Battery Bank Project is a good name so keep that. The charger unit in the UPS cant be used on liithiums, I might have already told ya that, not even for emergency unless u do diagnostic checks and u dont have the equipment to do it. I tell ya this cos I killed my agm batts using the UPS, and if them lithiums heat up cos of it then it wud be a disaster . Feel free to call me out or shout me out...lol

[@AveRage_Joe]

I might be able to set that up for a test. WoolC (oneword) 😉 The 12 and 24v didnt seem to have a problem while recharging the cells. I took the 12v one apart and retested the cells and they weren't far off from the first capacity check. I dont really plan on ever using it for that anyway. But Ill be sure to call you out if needed 😝

[@andyjack2368]

I have the ups 350 it come with 12Volt lead acid battery 7.2A I change it have 4 12 volt lead acid battery 3 12 volt 7.2 Amp and 20Amp in water proof tool box with 10Amp breaker and 2 GFCI out let 110V plug and 40Amp fused for my battery 40Amp fused positive of battery and positive wire for my used I have fused 40Amp and have cooling fan on my ups I cut hole on my used for air if get to hold when iruning so my usb is protected with GFCI out plug I was testing today do 2hours and half on battery have laptop and speaker on it but did have go out so I do full test on it

[@JoseGarcia-px9xj]

how long your UPS has been working like an inverter

[@AveRage_Joe]

+Jose Garcia Ive done some pretty good load test and long run test and its working out pretty good so far. Been a month or so with the test ect

[@james10739]

More bigger more better right

[@AveRage_Joe]

You Know IT!!! Go Big or Go Home!!!

[@dewimke]

already another video.... youre on fire :)

[@AveRage_Joe]

LOL I know right. Trying to get as much stuff done while work is slow cause when we get busy Im just so exhausted to do much.

[@kirkb4989]

Why put the tray back in- it just makes it heavier!!

[@AveRage_Joe]

+kirkb4989 True that!!! I was just thinkin why not keep it together..... but thats not very fun cause Ill probly hack it anyways 😆

[@AndyShell]

Did you upgrade? Prob eh lol

[@AveRage_Joe]

Yeah Im using the XL version lol! Changed it out shortly after this video if I remember right!

[@jamest.5001]

would you sell one of these?

[@AveRage_Joe]

There Heavy and shipping would be a killer I would think but could possibly sell.

[@DIYTechRepairs]

XL!

[@AveRage_Joe]

👍

[@DAH-ss1nu]

I'm late to the party but for anybody else who finds this you need to reprogram the battery constant and the pack count and probably adjust the float voltage via the internal command line type interface. Take a look here at how to do it zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=109171&sid=85eefd71d2a981db037e3fda30df904c

[@Guust_Flater]

Upgrade

[@AveRage_Joe]

Yeppers, thinking I might as well!!

[@mobilesigngeek1693]

I think I'm having a hoarder Envy you get way better crap in Omaha

[@AveRage_Joe]

I think I just lucked out finding the right place!💥🤘

[@OffGridAussiePrepper]

OK, i see ur having trouble filming ur vids and not pressing record, the only way to stop that is to setup one of ur lcd screens as a camera monitor and on ur camera turn the display settings on so u can see the REC symbol on the screen, so if ur half asleep then u shud still notice if ur talking to urself.... muahahahahahaha

[@AveRage_Joe]

Thats a good idea cause a lot of the times, the little tiny screen on the camera is just out of view LOL