DMP #25 - Spontaneous Qi Flow

A short discussion of the nature of Zi Fa Gong or 'Spontaneous Qi Flow'. This is to help with some of the confusions around the topic.
Spontaneous Qi flow is when the body moves free from conscious control and this is often something that manifests within practices such as Qigong, Yoga and Meditation. It should always be approached with a degree of mental detachment and freedom from overlaid conscious or subconscious models such as ideas of Kundalini or Deity involvement.
#damomitchell #qigong #zifagong
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[@RichardRe-Ly]

TRE (Trauma/Tremble Release Exercises) or neurogenic trembling is the name of the current method/trend! ... and THANK YOU for the clarification!

[@FriendlyEsotericDude]

Also, this entire talk is like an explanation of the mechanics behind "Subud".

[@LotusNeiGong]

I don’t know much about Subud other than I used to rent their venues to teach in years ago!

[@FriendlyEsotericDude]

@@LotusNeiGong it's one of those "systemless systems" where "God" does the work for you, you just get out the way. The groups seem to manifest weird movements and that's it. They come together. begin. spontaneous movements and chanting ensue. end. then they go about their week 🤷🏻‍♂️. Apparently it was founded by some "super Enlightened" dude who didn't sleep for 1000 days and nights. From your previous talk it seems like he was just transmitting his "pattern of being" to people's nervous systems. And that pattern is what is spread and passed on in group gatherings (latihan).

[@IrinaMacoveifr]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, have been struggling with spontaneous movements no matter what I do, I do also come from a very traumatic background and I recently discovered I have severe ADHD, I just keep on practicing hoping all will be good and all these blockages will be released somehow. You just confirmed what I felt I need more: silent sitting, yin enhancing practices.

[@jeara69]

Thank you Damo for sharing this knowledge.. Wish I had access to it 15 years ago! Was part of a group where everyone was having spontaneous movements that were called Kriyas and were supposed to be synonymous with Kundalini awakening but what you say here makes MUCH more sense to me now in perspective... Namaste sir!!

[@johnblouch1544]

I agree, access to this type of tried and true in depth, documented explanation to things would have also prevented alot of trouble for this guy also.

[@riptiz]

Good information, correct your mind can influence the effects when spontaneous energy is released, I experienced this during shaktipat.

[@OWR_Mission]

Thanks for goving perspective on this!

[@user-uu1cd2tp1v]

Thank you, Damo.

[@ChiEnergize]

You adjust so well as the information moves you. Thanks for sharing your ancient knowledge. ☯️❤️☯️ always listening.

[@alejandromendez6819]

Just in time, thank you so much. Im reading your book of guide on neigong and I just finished a session of Wu Ji with so much so fa gong and I was having some doubts that are now clear. ❤

[@LotusNeiGong]

Relax breath, settle and open body and it will pass :)

[@meditationamsterdam]

Once again, informative, clearly explained and useful information. Thanks Damo!

[@yanasophia1955]

another valuable talk that applies cross disciplines. much gratitude as always.

[@RyanHeifferon]

Thank you so much Damo! a few years back I was doing a lot of yoga and breathwork. I hit a period where my breathing felt like it was driving a gyration through my spine. I'd be completely relaxed and in a "non-dual awareness" and these gyrations would cycle twice per inhale/exhale. It was very rhythmic and it felt like it was clearing blockages along my spine. It also, felt like a breath of a spirit was filling my and aligning me, and at the time, I thought it was healing me. Because of how smooth and circular this was, I was thinking it was Kundalini and I have been trying to find more information on what happened to me. I didn't have any "spasms" though, so I am still curious. I don't know if anyone with experience would confirm this kind of experience?

[@edcooper1422]

Thanks for this. I started doing TRE exercises this year and at the same time picked up the idea/ model that it was facilitating awakening and clearing past trauma/stress. It has felt like it was frying my nervous system and not pleasant. I enjoyed this presentation and am hoping it might help me let go of the model and it might settle down. Thanks!

[@drop36000]

I really enjoyed this explanation. The school I am associated with uses spontaneous movement as a significant piece of the practice. Much of what you mentioned as a positive is included in the instruction, but also a fair bit of what you mentioned as a negative can be included in the experienece during practice. I have seen people become very attached to these experiences, and as you warned, it very often becomes detrimental and at times very bad.

[@mylazygardner]

Great talk Damo, I’m nearing the end of my third year with your Nei Gong program, I have been getting subtle zi fi gong while doing Wuji in my arms as a vibrational shaking and as a sort of pulsing like I’m being pulled, I relax through it and don’t attach as with any similar experience with the practice and they subside. So this talk was timely and helpful!

[@LotusNeiGong]

Join the discord group where we discuss all these things at length if you haven’t already :)

[@DrPittenstein]

My first Qigong teacher had us doing Zi Fa Gong after about a year of standing gathering posture. We did nothing else for a further 2 years! It helped work through physical blockages and then worked on emotional blockages. It still do it occasionally it feels good to allow the body to move freely but current Qigong teacher doesn't teach it at all. Thanks for the video, very little reliable information available on this subject.

[@MaximilienRoyoQiGongArsvita]

Yep, kundalini activation or sometimes inner dance, an energy “already here” “it”s safe, only what you are ready will express”. It appears in my hometown too. Always the same sweets talking to seduce people. With these kind of practice and others, people are more mess-up that they were first. I had some in my Qi Gong classes, their nervous system is hypersensible and tinted by a lot of emotional debris. Their body-mind interface is not neutral at all, harder to teach. Stillness is harder. Lot of fire in body. Collapse of vitality. Shen unrooted… and so on.. People who teach and mix arts don’t understand the consequences of what they are doing. : /

[@juang4618]

Thank you Damo for this talk. I definitely have an issue with this which occurs during my meditation practice ( Vipassana) quite often. It does occur spontaneously, at least it appears that way to me, and manifests as slight as a hand tremor all of the way up to a rather vigorous and rapid shaking of my head from side to side or even a sort of "fire breathing" panting from low in the belly. It usually happens that in any moment it is only one symptom at a time. My response to it is to just relax into it and let it happen and I don't try to stop it. If I try, I can stop it, but I then lose the state of surrender I am cultivating. Usually relaxing into it augments the movement and doesn't diminish it. On occassion, it will stop without a willful effort on my part. Sometimes, it becomes too much and I intentionally stop it. The energy driving this appears to originate from the root area. I'm hoping that in time, this will pass.

[@jamesjasonallen4168]

The western therapy modality youre referring to is called TRE. Its a series of exercises that are supposed to tire out the larger muscle groups, especially around the psoas, to induce the involuntary shaking. Ive found after doing this a couple of times that I don’t need to do the exercises anymore. I can just lie down into the end position and allow it to happen. That said, would you recommend against this practice? Or is it fine to do it as long as youre able to maintain the indifferent attitude towards the movement?

[@mushin18]

I’m assuming the book Damo mentions is Living with Kundalini by Gopi Krishna. The school i used to train with described spontaneous movement as kundalini, and this book then scared the bejesus out of me. Great to hear it broken down in a sensible way. Thank you 🙏

[@trump9075]

I'm always surprised when people mention hermerics and Qigong. Recently, I've realized that the Franz Bardon book is the culprit for that. A theosophical syncretic book that took a lot of concepts from Qigong and yoga and added random hermeric concepts in there that have absolutely nothing to do with the hermetic tradition.

[@-mindscapes-5557]

That's nor entirely bardon fault. There are current qigong practitioners that also work with bardon system and are mixing the two in their courses. One for example is Mark Rasmus. So there's a group of people that started doing a mix of the two

[@trump9075]

@-mindscapes-5557 well, my point was that Bardon's original book has very little hermeticism (other than borrowing concepts and labelas) and whatever Mark Rasmus is doing is even further away from Hermericism.

[@liver.flush.maestro]

Good topic, I get a lot of those spontaneous movements when I do QiGong or Yoga between pauses 🙂 The majority of my spontaneous movements are focused around my spine.

[@LotusNeiGong]

The spine is the most common place for them to arise due to the amount of blockages that may arise in this region of the body :)

[@liver.flush.maestro]

@@LotusNeiGong Thank you for your reply comment🙂 I do seem to have more spontaneous movements towards the beginning of my yoga practice, and those become less and less strong towards the end, so I suppose the poses help unblock the Qi flow in my spine. I do standing meditation WuJi after an hour of yoga and at this point my spine only shows small and soft ondulations, so I think perhaps it is good to first do some yoga, then WuJi.

[@MonacoBlast66]

Ah. This is what happened to me some 40 years ago. My teacher, Waysun Liao, explained nothing. When I returned to my practice, it was something that did not repeat itself. Jerking around like a maniac was so weird. I wish I had understood what was going on.

[@JanWillems-dk3gt]

Such an interesting topic. Thanks for framing this well for those new to the topic. Ask; Can frequent burping while practicing TaiJ, Yoga or Nei Gong be considered spontaneous movements? Does “spontaneous” burping during practice have any value? I have been told it may be related to too much mental activity which then puts a strain on the digestive system and internal/conscious body work can bring relief. It would help me to understand what might be the cause. Thanks.

[@LotusNeiGong]

That is right, usually a mild reversal of the Stomach Qi due to too much intention :)

[@johnblouch1544]

I think the book he's talking about is by JJ Semple, or at least thats another book that talks about it. Ive experienced something similar with an exercise called 'the middle pillar ritual' from Hermetics. Very, very difficult experience. You're basically frying your nervous system and hacking it to do interesting things that ultimately contradict what is healthy for your body. And the entire time your books are telling you that you're becoming "enlightened" and that it will all eventually get better when it just keeps getting worse. 1/5 stars cannot recommend.

[@jeara69]

I think he was talking about one of the first books on Kundalini: Living with Kundalini the autobiography of Gopi Krishna…?

[@johnblouch1544]

Honestly that makes far more sense 😆 fair enough good sir, that is definitely probably the book and author.

[@riptiz]

I had extreme experiences when I had shaktipat in India in 2005. Few know what is happening and Gopi Krishna had lots of health problems by incorrect practices.

[@johnblouch1544]

@@riptiz That so sad 😔 we do these things to improve our well-being, and then because some leader type doesn't want to admit they made mistakes, which makes perfect sense from a business standpoint unfortunately, they then pass those mistakes onto their students. It really sucks that that happened to you Riptiz I hope you've managed to heal and move on.

[@riptiz]

@@johnblouch1544hi John, it wasn’t a problem for me as I was on an ashram and the system (Kundalini Maha Yoga) gives shaktipat regularly as it is part of their system. I only had positive experiences and as Damo said one is instructed not to resist energy movement as this causes problems. My experiences also included visions, voices and smells over 4 days.

[@SnakeAndTurtleQigong]

🙏

[@user-mf6np1vu8m]

If it's subconscious movement why can I direct my movements with my conscious mind

[@user-mf6np1vu8m]

Hey damo if I can prove I can change the weather will u hire me as a teacher or give me free lessons on the difference between hermetics yoga and daoists practice??.. just alone in the dark plays g snakes and ladders yo..

[@FriendlyEsotericDude]

Throwing some shade at Matk Rasmus's Hermetic Qi Gong system i see 😂😂😂. I've always wondered what you thought of him.❤

[@LotusNeiGong]

Not aimed at Mark no. I seem to be going through a phase of people constantly asking me about hermetics and Qigong fusions is all and asking me if the terminology between the systems is the same. The answer is no, people are finding similarities that shouldn’t be there and joining dots that are not meant to be joined. This the problem with fusions; they always make a mess! I am just of the opinion that hermetics on its own is fine and Qigong on its own is fine and so those who practice both should compartmentalise :)

[@selviskk]

The book he is talking about is written by Gopi Krishna called living with kundalini... it is pure nightmare fuel and a good example of what not to do while meditating

[@LotusNeiGong]

That’s the one! Sounds like the writer went through one hell of an ordeal!

[@dabblerdeluxe775]

The thing is he didn't do much, just one pointed meditation on a lotus.

[@riptiz]

@@dabblerdeluxe775meditated on his crown which is not advisable.

[@varuanda]

That was an outstanding talk but i wonder how do you want to know the phenomena regarding G.Krishna, i mean he knew one thing or two about this tradition? @@LotusNeiGong

[@dabblerdeluxe775]

@@riptiz premature crown opening before lower cleansing of the chakras right? I think I went through something like that after months of void meditation it was like unlimited energy coming down through my crown that made energy in my lower body move up and burn away everything, spent a week without sleep as every time i relaxed infinite energy came down and refilled me, also my conciousness was dislodged from inside my head and became constantly moving like running down my leg or wherever i focused. unlimited stress, I'm not sure if this was a qi deviation or kundalini experience but there was no bliss. I forget was his experience like this at all?

[@annathomas2024]

I believe I have had a kundalini awakening and is ongoing nearly a decade later. I don't say that lightly. Hardest thing I've ever experienced. Was spontaneous. Wouldn't recommend to anyone to try to awaken it. When I hear people saying they have kundalini awakening, I also say 'really' and I'm skeptical. And I understand why you would be skeptical even of me saying I've had one. I'm also open to being wrong. Out of interest what are from your learnings are the typical signs of having a kundalini awakening. You mention their are typical signs etc.

[@annathomas2024]

Also before it happened to me, I'd never heard the term. And even though I believe I'm in the process, it's still not a word I focus on or over identify with. I've simply been forced to surrender to this flow of energy in my body. To label it has felt less important. Hasn't changed my experience.

[@TheManilio]

Kundalini awakening is something really really dificult. It simply dont happen without following a long and hard training process. For most people (like 99,999%) these experiences are usually yang qi stuck, qi deviation or zifagong.

[@pakmei1813]

Do you think a daily 10 minute spontaneous qi flow is good for health and illness? Nothing fancy, just letting go.

[@LotusNeiGong]

I think like all things, if managed well and used in the right way then it can be good :)

[@pakmei1813]

Cheers. @@LotusNeiGong

[@mystictheninja1486]

first, gimme cookie

[@LotusNeiGong]

🍪

[@mystictheninja1486]

@@LotusNeiGong 🤣

[@clackers9696]

Negative spontaneous qi flow sounds very much like bad electric shock therapy! Chill and stay safe everyone. Thanks Damo for being a safety valve, informed talk as usual.