New Paladin | 2024 Player's Handbook | D&D

[@OneShotQuesters]

But the main question is....Will the Paladin Throw it Back? 👀

[@eduardogarcia6318]

Hello there! Nice to see you here. I love your content!

[@Udontnomi02]

If only 😞

[@adamjakaus9312]

🤞

[@ginginc]

Sadly only Devotion, Glory, Ancients & Vengeance made it into the new PHB. Though wonder if take a 1 level dip into Bard would allow a Paladin to master throwing it back?

[@ad9aggie]

No, only the Monk can do that...

[@gd_xl]

i like to imagine these two just constantly discussing dnd in this little room never taking breaks to eat or sleep

[@koldblazer12]

Compelled Duel

[@parheliaa]

Hardly a discussion when one of them only repeats "Yeah", "Cool" or nods 90% of the time

[@koldblazer12]

@@parheliaa other companies like bethesda do this too like with their starfield update and bungie with destiny 2’s the final shape, im guessing they want it to feel less corporate with an interview format but its not really giving that vibe yknow

[@tonysladky8925]

That's impossible. Every so often, Todd has to stop and talk to Perkins instead.

[@SPKRoach]

They’ve been going at it for 50 years

[@bruisermachina13]

The fact that smite is a spell now means smite can only happen once per turn. As for the find steed, I think we need better mounted combat rules in the first place.

[@TheMaDdi3]

Only if it was a bonus action. And if the bonus-action-spell-cantrip-only-now rule still exists.

[@Mikus011]

Thanks for explaining why this change is considered bad...

[@ecgrey]

And it can be counterspelled. Smite! What were they thinking?

[@gersonbruno8463]

I think it continues to be part of the attack, so if you have extra ones it shouldn't be able to be casted just once per turn. (if I'm not wrong)

[@Xephosus]

@@gersonbruno8463 Nope, any Smite is a bonus action, and it is a verbal spell casting, so only one smite per turn

[@MegaMik]

"We've made TWO major enhancements. One of them is Bonus action instead of action-" Video ends*

[@Thaloc]

Very strange this cut in the video

[@tfowler1]

Came to the comments just for this.

[@NewdErection]

“There is…. Another….skywaaaah” *dies*

[@Megawaps]

That's a cliffhanger

[@V2Blast]

I believe an incorrect statement about the 2024 version of the Avenging Angel feature was cut out. (And since it was right at the end of the video, I guess it was easiest to just cut the video early, rather than re-filming/editing around it.)

[@FriendlyOne_]

Divine smite being a spell is a class devastating feature. It's so bad... For the life of me, I can't understand why you couldn't just slap "once per turn" on it to fix pally being super nova?

[@saurianwatcher4437]

Really, I dont get how this is a nerf in any way other than preventing Rules Lawyer players from nuking everything with a smite tacked onto every time a weapon connects. Making it a bonus action spell instead of its current form just means that you can't chain it onto multiple hits in the same attack, and prevents it from being used as an add-on to Sentinel's reaction hit. For people playing RaI, it's a no-variation rules clarification that ultimately buffs the class since e you also now get a free Paladin Smite every day. It's literally only a nerf if your DM isn't running enough encounters per long rest that only Paladins are getting the chance to use all their spell slots.

[@FriendlyOne_]

@@saurianwatcher4437 nope, it's way more worse than that. - No smiting on a reaction attack - No two weapon fighting - No polearm master attack - Divine smite can be counterspelled - Enemies immune to spells under N level? Applies to smite now - Do paladin's subclasses still give a BA feature? Can't use that with smite now either. 5e has a boring action economy. Move, action, bonus action(and a reaction). What you could do to diversify your regular turn is grab feats and abilities to fill in your BA. With this change paladin just feels like your regular fighter mechanically, just with a single magically empowered strike. Slapping "once per turn" wording would've fixed everything, including paladin nuking everything by chaining to every attack, which I understand is pretty powerful, but making it BA is a wrong way to fix it Watch Treants monk vid on suggested smite, he gives a good idea

[@FriendlyOne_]

If Rakshasa retains his limited magic immunity from 5e that means even a 20th level paladin would be unable to deal any damage with his smite... You get this? A 20th level paladin would be unable to damage a fiend with his smite!

[@MilitaryMan3706]

I agree, change it to once per turn and this becomes a perfectly fine Class.

[@saurianwatcher4437]

@MilitaryMan3706 I cannot tell you how many times "once per turn" has been misunderstood by both DMs and players. Once per turn and once per round are CONSTANTLY misunderstood. Neither are good replacements. Just make it a reaction spell, and state that you can use it in place of your reaction.

[@bringitonbatman]

Rest-in-peace the paladin-barbarian multiclass 2014-2024

[@stephenradlett1418]

Also moon druid paladin...no more wild shape smite

[@trise2033]

​@@stephenradlett1418That never existed. In fact, that's likely the exact reason why Smite only worked on Weapon Attacks.

[@itzguzma4075]

Can’t you just multiclass with the 2024 Barbarian and 2014 Paladin to get around it?

[@derspacer2259]

​@@trise2033 You are wrong about this. Paladin can smite on any Melee weapon attack. Animal bites are Melee Weapon Attacks. Read the monster stats for any beasts.

[@cosmicmuffin101]

@@derspacer2259They’re confusing natural weapons and unarmed strikes. By RAW, moon druids can smite but monks can’t

[@RiliaVonAegir]

The Divine Smite changes fill me with righteous anger

[@Pandemos]

"You know THE thing for palis? That's a spell now. And it's now a crappy spell that can only be used as a bonus action. We hate palis!" Can't wait for the wrath of a greater being being channeled through me being counterspelled by a low level spell. And I can't use it in a huge amount of circumstances because it's only a bonus action.

[@ethanfields1354]

Once a turn is definitely enough of a nerf imo

[@Viper3220]

5e had so much potential. Sadly, it has moved much closer to 4e as time goes by. Abilities feel gamey, weak, and also simultaneously unbalanced.

[@starxrox]

@@Viper3220 Is it time for me to learn how to play Pathfinder? I have a paladin and listening to the other videos compared to this, it seems super lame

[@theodorehunter4765]

​@@starxrox "Paladin" is a "subclass" for Champion in PF2e. They don't really get "smite" but they get to add damage to their weapon via certain optional class features. (You basically choose if you want to be good with a weapon, armor, or magic, and the book VERY much wants you to pick armor.) They are more geared towards being tanks than DPR.

[@stefanhuddleston6816]

If I had to guess using the current Smite is going to be a super common house rule.

[@walkerpierce5446]

I really hope a future book gives the option to use the old rule.

[@stefanhuddleston6816]

@@walkerpierce5446 Everything in 2014 is still valid they have now said. Nothing in 2024 replaces 2014 so the old pally is still in play.

[@walkerpierce5446]

@@stefanhuddleston6816 Yeah. I'm just concerned that the 2014 rule book might/will get delisted from DnD Beyond (which I have found a lot of people have been moving towards using for convenience). And if that happens it would slowly phase out (over time) those who use the legacy 2014 rules as potentially the number of those who have access to those optional rules dwindle in proportion to newer players who don't. It wouldn't effect in person stuff as much but it's just a bit concerning to me.

[@mappybc6097]

A main point of 2024 was to nerf broken s**t and buff subpar classes like the Ranger and Rogue. If you really feel like Paladin needs to deal 100 hp of damage in a single round to be fun then just play 2014.

[@walkerpierce5446]

@@mappybc6097 That's not the point. It's specifically divine smite being a spell. Making it a bonus action was a fine nerf. No more Smite stacking. But making it a spell breaks things like multiclassing with Barbarian, which is not super good, but it is fun. Now, that isn't even an option under the 2024 rules.

[@Geologese]

"We want people to use something other than smite" Then maybe make control spells not save or suck and other options better value?

[@mattbriddell9246]

Awesome- there are 11 other classes that people can play if they want to do that :P

[@liegeutescher5408]

Agreed. It also felt weird to me that they decided to give free smites in order to free up spell slots to cast other things, when in reality it does nothing to incentivize people to do something else than use all slots into divine smites. Makes more sense to me to have divine smite be an ability with a limited amount of uses that are not tied to spell slots, so that paladins actually use their spell slots to do other things.

[@gorgit]

​​@@liegeutescher5408 Would either make them too strong, or limit their spellcasting and/or smites drastically. Id rather have full costumizability of how I wanna use my paladins strength, than always having 3 smites and 5 spellslots. Now I can still freely decide on a daily basis, whether I wanna use 6 smites, or 4 smites and 2 spells, or 1 smite and 5 spells, etc. This system is better by a LANDSLIDE.

[@someusername9591]

@@liegeutescher5408with this hard nerf to smite you might be better off using polearm master as you bonus action anyways.

[@gorgit]

​@@liegeutescher5408 that would be horrible. See why: Lets say our paladin now has 5 spellslots. He can use them for 5 smites, 5 spells, or anything inbetween. And he can do so on the fly, no preparation required. Each day, each fight, each turn he can decide. Now, going to your idea, lets say a paladin with the sane level would have 5 smites AND 5 spellslots. Now the class is broken, he has twice as many abilites per day as he used to have (mind you the paladin is really strong already). So we either have to sacrifice smites, spellslots or both. So lets do both, lets say he has 3 smites and 3 spellslots. Great, now my smite machine character can only use 3 smites instead of 5. He got 3 spells, but thats not what I wanted to play. Similiary now my paladin pure caster only gets 3 spells instead of 5. He doesnt care for smites, I'll never melee attack anyway. So in the end, at least one of these playstyles has to be sacrificed, maybe even both. So its a bad decision that makes every paladin either play the same, or make him much worse.

[@maineventmark]

The Divine Smite change is a massive nerf. Meh, that needs to be changed. Player: "That's a nat 20, I'm going to use a 5th level spell slot on Divine Smite." DM: "Counterspell." Player: "..."

[@CryptofSkulk]

THATS NOT EVEN THE WORST OF IT. Imagine a guy runs past you and you go for the opp. attack only to not be able to use your smite bc its a bonus action. Imagine not being able to even deal above 8-12 damage on a Rakshasa in one hit bc its immune to 6th level and lower spells

[@99subetai]

I would think you have to use the bonus action on Paladin's Smite, before the attack roll, also. So no smiting AFTER you see the result of the roll, anymore. Could be wrong, but pretty sure that's how it will work.

[@daanduijkers4845]

In my opinion, they should have kept it at making divine smite a once per action/turn skill similar to the warlock’s eldritch smite.

[@jorgeporras9262]

Honestly that's wonderful. My paladin players always took the chance to blast everything with smites on top of being able to tank, maybe heal and even use utility in a single turn, and left the rest of the party feeling useless in combat. Nerfs to the Paladin would be bad in a bubble, but taking into account how much OP and useful than most other classes they are, it's perfectly fine.

[@99subetai]

@@jorgeporras9262 Paladins are not the most powerful class. The base class is good, but almost every wizard subclass is more powerful. Multiple cleric subclasses are more powerful. Moon druid and Circle of the Shepherd are equal to or better than the best paladin subclasses. The most recent sorcerer 5e subclasses are exceptionally powerful. What paladins have going for them in 5e is the chassis of the class is solid, so there really aren't any terrible subclasses. But they aren't the most powerful.

[@ericgropuis]

I understand wanting to make Paladins not reliant on Smite but making the base Smite a spell now limits it even more. Paladins have a lot of useful concentration spells and it will eat up turns since Paladins dont have cantrips and Smites are tied to an attack. Now it means with these rules a Paladins will only just attack and smite on their turns and that’s it. It can now be counterspelled which sucks for the player, depending on VSM you won’t be able to do it in silence and even a beholder with their anti-magic will shut them down. Paladins don’t have many non concentration spells they will be casting in battle if you wanted them to use those spells more just give them more. Glory Paladins can cause guiding bolt which is a great spell, more outside of combat spells too. Goes to say I won’t be having Smite be a spell outside of the other smite spells

[@codebracker]

Fortunately, most of the smite spells don't require concentration anymore

[@ericgropuis]

@@codebrackerTrue but won’t be able to stack a smite on top of a searing or thunderous smite anymore because both are leveled spells during the same turn atleast have to set it up and be slow

[@codebracker]

@@ericgropuis i mean you have to admit, smite stacking is a bit silly

[@ericgropuis]

@@codebracker Never found it that silly, always found it cool that you have divine light come out of your weapon on top of it being on fire it’s an awesome

[@codebracker]

@@ericgropuis seems a bit op, much like action surging 2 fireballs on the same turn

[@dhwright98]

can't wait for my Divine Smite to be counterspelled...

[@tantalus_complex]

I suppose we'll have to see if it has casting components other than a weapon. If its only requirement is the weapon as a material component, or the motion required to use the weapon as a somatic component, then it is basically as good as having been Subtle-cast.

[@HappyCatholicDane]

Or having it doing no damage to Tiamat because of spell damage immunity.

[@SirMcFluffyThe22nd]

if your smite is getting counterspelled that means your ally wizard won’t get their more impactful spell getting counterspelled. I don’t think countering smites is gonna be common unless your DM hates paladins lmao

[@TDWlive]

I'm also pretty sure you don't loose the spell slot if your counterspelled anymore

[@agjovik]

2014 paladin blasts rakshasas 2024 paladin flees from rakshasas.

[@pilgrimsplague8043]

I'm for sure going to let my players ignore that Divine smite as a spell bullcrap

[@Yeldibus]

Why? What's so bad about it?

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

@@Yeldibusif it’s a spell that means it can be counterspelled or nullified if the Paladin loses their arcane focus or is unable to use components. Imagine using your attack action, a spell slot AND a bonus action for massive damage and the dm just says no.

[@maddogs1989]

​@@YeldibusThe only way a Paladin keeps up with the other classes damage wise is through smite. However they are considered OP because they can do that damage faster. Once all smites are done A Paladin is just a Bad fighter damage wise.

[@walkerpierce5446]

​@@Yeldibus It breaks quite a few things, including barbarian multiclassing. You can't cast spells while raging, so no smiting with this version. Whereas previous or was a feature and therfore could be used while raging.

[@shayliakara]

@@maddogs1989 They never run out of smites, like ever. So, that is BS.

[@Judas_Iscariote]

But now, with the change to smite as spell... The Pal can smite only once per round. Why not giving him smite options just like warlock invocations?

[@Tianzi38]

Video cuts short discussion of Oath of Vengeance changes, which is incredibly annoying. Literally in mid-sentence.

[@V2Blast]

I believe an incorrect statement about the 2024 version of the Avenging Angel feature was cut out. (And since it was right at the end of the video, I guess it was easiest to just cut the video early, rather than re-filming/editing around it.)

[@maximumforce8275]

​@@V2Blastthey better not have massacred my boi.

[@Masonic2299]

Do you want a class that will instill fright? Take up some plate and keep the goblins in sight, 'cause you want to make sure they eat this Paladin SMITE -JoCat

[@codebracker]

Push mastery + pushing manuever + thunderous smite = Shoot the target to a different zip code

[@trise2033]

@@codebracker GW2 Banish (Guardian Hammer 4)

[@firelordeliteast6750]

I miss him so much 😢

[@mattbriddell9246]

DeusvultDeusvultDeusvult... :D

[@Fralexion]

​@@firelordeliteast6750he's coming back!

[@DrMintster]

Gotta love any change in mechanics that has people go, "This is stupid, we're just gonna ignore it." lol

[@thecopperandroid8989]

The Divine Smite being a spell is going to turn me into a Paladin with how dedicated I am to hating that

[@maximumforce8275]

My oath of vengence is flaring up inside me...vengence for those who were wronged...vengence for PALADINS!

[@johnwaggner9143]

So wait. You want to encourage Paladin players to make more use of their spells instead of only using their spellslots for Divine Smites...by making Divine Smite a Bonus Action spell, which makes it the one leveled spell they're allowed per turn? AND making it take up their Concentration when the majority of their spells need Concentration...which forces them to choose between casting spells or smiting?

[@Dark3rThanBlack]

He never said, "Paladin's Smite" requires concentration. You get a free cast of it per day, and then it uses spell slots afterward.

[@Whimsykiller]

yea I think imma just pretend smite works the way it did before.

[@Rutarian]

They made it worse for sure lol.

[@DevinHandleyy]

Man. I am very excited about this handbook for literally EVERYTHING but Paladin. I hate what they did to Paladin. Forcing it to once per turn was a valid nerf. Was fine with that. Turning it to a BA seemed a little far. Turning it into a spell which now monsters with limited magic immunity, can counterspell, or are resistant to spells is too far imo. Likely won’t play pally anymore. Especially considering the smite spells were looking as good if not better than normal smite because of the added effects. That’s tough.

[@aquila1290]

yup they will be the rangers of 2024e. As far as I know, they are the only class that got any actual nerfs.

[@5-Volt]

It's the bonus action that kills it for me. I'm currently playing a Vengeance pali with Polearm master. My character completely falls apart with these rules. Lay on hands is a BA now? Cool. So I get my buddy up as a bonus action then go crit the bad guy and... too bad I can't smite because I already used my bonus action. Someone walks into my reach & I opportunity attack because of PAM? Can't smite because it's a reaction attack. I use my Vow of Enmity as a BA & attack with advantage? Can't smite because I used my BA already... I liked where they were going with picking a smite spell when you hit & having them all auto-prepped. The way the other smite spells work currently is clunky & this cleaned up the mechanics & made it simpler but making them all bonus actions & spells just absolutely ruined them. 😭

[@JazzyBassy]

@@5-Voltvow of enmity is not a BA anymore, it’s free. What they did so that Paladin doesn’t have much to compete for a bonus action is decrease the amount of features requiring it

[@Psuedo-Nim]

Improve the Class in multiple wats, take smiting down to once per tun instead of twice, and its broken. If someone wastes a counterspell on smite (Which Paladins get to save against under the playtest Counterspell rules) that's great! No rounds wasted on Channel divinity actions that boost attacks. Multiple channel divinities per short rest. Free 1st smite. Free Fidn speed. Expanded fighting styles, weapon mastery...hands down better class than the 2014 Paladin.

[@5-Volt]

@@JazzyBassy There's still a ton of feats, racial abilities & other class abilities that are BAs though. This just locks Paladins out of doing any of those in the same turn as a smite. I don't even care about the once per turn limitation. It's just the fact that it costs an action to attack, bonus action & spell slot to smite. Waaay too much of a resource tax.

[@Lathlaer]

I am amazed how he can talk about those nerfs with a straight face and package them as "upgrades". Yes, you get 1 free smite per day at the cost of it costing you a bonus action, not able to smite more than once per turn and not able to use it as your attacks of opportunity . Yes you get more channel divinity uses at the cost of Divine Sense now costing you one use when previously you could use it typically 3-4 times per day without worrying that it will take your CD uses. Stuff like Oath abilities not costing BA anymore and being free feels like an upgrade until you remember - again - that now using Divine Smite is a BA which means they did not upgrade them, they only made them usable in their new ecosystem.

[@rrrrthats4rs]

D&D is a collaborative story game, not a competitive arena shooter. DMs can make up as much or as little opposition as they want, so thinking about whether something is "Good" or not in terms of raw power seems really stupid???

[@Lathlaer]

@@rrrrthats4rs It's not stupid. It's still a game that should be balanced and balancing the power of classes is crucial. Something being bad in terms of raw power is undesirable because player should not be punished for wanting to fulfill a fantasy of a class that happens to suck in terms of mechanics. You have to remember that you do not need balancing against what the DM throws at you - you need balancing against other player choices. Players do not compete against each other in traditional sense but there absolutely is a possibility that one player has a stronger character that sidelines and overshadows everyone else. It's one of the reasons why point buy is overwhelmingly suggested as the superior choice to simply stat rolling. It's not because the DM has difficulties with a powerful PC - it's because the DM needs to work overtime when one PC is much stronger or weaker than the rest of the party. Therefore talking about whether something is rightfully nerfed or not is absolutely fine in the context of the game.

[@listen2theyetti]

​@@rrrrthats4rsi disagree with this. There are plenty of other games that don't have half the mechanics that d and d does (and always has). The story telling it still part of it but its only part. The other part is the "crunch" of building a character that works well within the mechanics. If you don't care about the numbers then thats fine for you but d and d was built to do both. Mind you I would say the same thing to someone who thinks the role playing part of d and d is stupid or pointless.

[@rrrrthats4rs]

@listen2theyetti im not saying don't care about the numbers, I'm saying that Paladins don't have any inherent power level. Their efficiency is invented by the dm contextual to the encounters. People who freak out about changes to classes in the abstract aren't thinking about actual games of D&D, they're creating whole campaigns and characters in their head ahead of time and probably not actually ever sitting at a table to play.

[@jamesbg314]

Its like 1980s car regulations Limit horsepower to increase gas mileage, but now the car is terrible

[@nathanhedlund836]

With all these character options, monsters better be stronger too.

[@firelordeliteast6750]

They said they were reworking the monsters

[@tkelley004]

hoping monsters can use weapon mastery, the orc can slow or push you too...

[@yippeethreeeight]

Nah. Nobody wants there to be a risk that their character will die. So it will be a cakewalk like 5e. Betcha.

[@gorgit]

​@@yippeethreeeight that legitimately solely depends on the dm. I have never seen anyone use CR unironically anyway.

[@gorgit]

​@@tkelley004 If they dont, just let them have it. This is just a baseline, you can change it however you see fit.

[@thiagoknofel8982]

They could also adjust Paladin Smite to "once per turn you can cast one of these spells" and set Divine Smite's Casting Time to "immediately after hitting a creature with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike, no action required". Could be the better to mantain smites once per turn and still garantee the spell list versatility

[@eliascabbio7598]

I think that it's a bonus action that you take when you hit, so that's basically it

[@tristancotton7222]

@@eliascabbio7598 except you lose your BA. So many fun other features rely on a Bonus Action. Seems brutal to keep having to use your Bonus Action every turn you want to smite.

[@eliascabbio7598]

@@tristancotton7222 I undrestand, but actually you shouldn't cast spells every turn. It's like all other caster/martial hybrid now, I don't see why is it a problem. Moreover, we don't even know about the casting time it takes, they didn't say that

[@jonathankonderla7989]

If anything it would be a reaction when you hit something. Not a free action, which I prefer because then you're not using concentration on smites

[@thiagoknofel8982]

@@eliascabbio7598 Its a heavy nerf. Lay on hands, Oath features and other spell of The list (like aura of vitality) ALL use a Lot of your BA. Other classes skill can spamimg booming Blade every turno with other spells activated, making more Attacks and and use Its bonus acation to other features/spells. Some of these classes are better casters, with a Lot more Spell slots. The paladins weakness aways was its heavy dependency of expendeble resources. Now, above that, It Will need handle even more action economy. Just because The aura os a strong feature didnt mean Its a overpower classe...now Its even losing Its mechanichal niche to The Warlock (better Smite, better caster, better utilities and better number of Attacks per hound).

[@chrism6315]

2024 update is mostly all good stuff, the divine smite being a spell now is a terrible nerf and whilst i acknowledge the council has made a decision, as its a stupid one im going to ignore it.

[@electronsympathy]

"We moved spells to level 1 so a paladin might actually cast a spell for once in their lives instead of wasting them all on smite."

[@BootiSwet]

Paladins don't have spell slots, they have smite slots.

[@collectorsalmanac]

>Laughs in Smite< Bet!

[@LanceorTC]

To emphasize that, they also made smite borderline unusable.

[@shealupkes]

"we couldn't think of good features so we just moved spellcasting to level 1 and called it a day"

[@TaylorAP13]

@@shealupkes Paladins were one of the classes that needed as little change as possible. They got a host of upgrades, not sure what you are mad about. Lol

[@HappyCatholicDane]

Paladin have often been mentioned as the 5e class, that had the highest approval rating. Meaning people have fun playing them. But with these changes, the paladin will be the 2024 Ranger. Not going to play as one, and certainly going to homebrew it if I am the dm.

[@JoeyBilbo]

I’m glad you discovered how dnd works. If you don’t like something. Change it. Stop complaining.

[@HappyCatholicDane]

@@JoeyBilbo Homebrew requires dm approval, meaning not likely to happen at most tables. Certainly not in adventure league. If you like the changes,,then good for you. I don’t, and I will continue to complain for as long as I want.

[@JoeyBilbo]

@@HappyCatholicDane who uses adventure league as the standard for a game of DnD???

[@d.v.1803]

@@JoeyBilbo why are you so obsessed with hating paladins? Who hurt you, lol

[@JoeyBilbo]

@@d.v.1803 played a paladin for a year and loved it but man was it so strong effortlessly. i just am bothered by people whining

[@NHGorman]

Smite as an actual cast spell AND a bonus action? No thanks. In fact, you just gave me my table's first house rule for the new PHB (assuming any of us even use the 2024 Paladin over the 2014 version). . . All it needed to keep it from being as (admittedly) overpowered as it was initially was a "once -per-turn" limitation like the Rogue's sneak attack.

[@williamtorres4140]

What made it overpowered when compared to any full caster? Especially the Wizard

[@collectorsalmanac]

@@williamtorres4140 Multiclass Paladin with Fighter could get 3 attacks at 11, few levels in paladin and you could smite every time you swung a weapon

[@aidencaterwall9146]

@@collectorsalmanac yeah with like 2 first level spell slots. Any sort of gaming for extra attacks was balanced by the fact that you'd burn all your spell slots or not have the spell slots in the first place.

[@skalra63]

​@@aidencaterwall9146agreed. When we're playing we rarely have a long rest so my paladin has to ration his spell slots. I get the feeling people play with a long rest before each encounter so always have their spells available.

[@daegraith6524]

These videos are convincing me that I won't be able to just skim the new PHB for changes--it's going to be a full, careful rereading of each class.

[@fernandoaguila9283]

I am more annoyed about how he tried to sell the nerf of smites as an “upgrade”.

[@androlgenhald476]

The amount of work they want through just to make sure everything worked by making DS a BA spell is incredible. If they wanted to nerf it, all they had to do was add a line saying you could only do it once a turn. Then at least you could use your BA on some other cool thing.

[@ActualChef]

Indeed. Which makes the “this is just a money ploy” crowd seem so misinformed and misguided. Like, you realize there are probably ten thousand development hours here aside from the new artwork they paid for, right?

[@JakeCoker-gw1ii]

This feels like the correct way to nerf divine smite if it even needed a nerf.

[@forgot-to-log-out]

Wellfrom what i understand they made it a spell to put it in line wi other smite like spells probably also buffing those

[@frking100]

@@ActualChef This is just a money ploy. Or if there is "ten thousand development hours" they where very poorly managed. Just compare this with any of the new reworked pathfinder classes, Baldurs gate reworks, or the 1 million fan reworks of classes, and you can see how dnd dropped the ball. I recommend reading on the reworked champion (pathfidner equivalent to paladin)

[@Alassandros]

Man, if Smites are spells now, I won't be able to Smite as a Barbarian-Paladin multiclass anymore. That sucks.

[@loganreidy7055]

Don't worry, smite takes your bonus action now too

[@Staticsheep28]

Zealot barbarian still exists.

[@Alassandros]

@@Staticsheep28 And? It's not the same.

[@Staticsheep28]

@@Alassandros It isn't but if divine smiting while raging is your only concern, which it seems to be based on what you said, than be a zealot barbarian that multiclasses with Paladin. Zealots get a once per turn psuedo smite while raging, amd while not raging you can still use all the spells you want.

[@Alassandros]

@@Staticsheep28 I don't want to be locked to Zealot, man. I'm playing a Bear Totem-Glory Paladin right now and now it doesn't work with one of its main offensive features.

[@GrimMorningstar]

Making smite a spell with levels means a Paladin of Bahamut can no longer smite Tiamat, as she is immune to all spells 6th level or lower. Worst change ever.

[@derspacer2259]

Also, they cannot smite with any enemy Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard around - Counterspell. They just moved THE main class feature to be counterable easily. Will they do the same to Barbarian rages and druid wild shapes? Those are also insanely strong, even with the new changes.

[@marcoscollado4040]

yes of course a really specific situation that has happened 3 times in 50 years made this change "the worst change ever"

[@ilyaterk110]

@@derspacer2259 Man I can't believe they still have Wizards cast spells that can be counterspelled. Spells are THE main class feature of Wizards. This is so unfair!

[@JamCliche]

​​@@ilyaterk110So disingenuous. Those classes can Counterspell back, and cast more spells in combat. Paladins cannot do this, and Smite is their main damage dealing feature. Without it, they're just an okay Fighter with a self heal.

[@BlazeIgnitus]

@@ilyaterk110 Your disingenuousness and glibness is noted. One small problem: wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks also get counterspell, which means they can take down the counterspell potentially. Paladins don't get that option, making paladins far more vulnerable to counterspell than the aforementioned arcane casters. Paladins also use Smite as their main damage source. As Jam noted, without it, they're not going to keep up even with a fighter or barbarian, and they have a self-heal (which fighter also sort of has with Second Wind). So... what's your point, exactly? Or are you just going to continue to be disingenuous?.

[@JakeCoker-gw1ii]

So Find Steed is incredible but I have had some paladins who I have not wanted to use it because it just didn't fit the RP I was going for and I didn't want to manage another creature on the field (even though it was basically free and for optimizing purposes you should always use it). Since this is now being packed into the class itself, are Paladins basically always expected to be built around having a steed at their side? Feels a bit like what felt optional has now become like a mandatory play style.

[@KevinVideo]

Agreed. Having this new find steed should have been a subclass, not a main class feature. Unless Mounted Combat is the bestest thing ever compared to 2014, I can't see my players ever using it. And if the campaign takes place in various right dungeons, then even less likely you're ever going to use the spell.

[@WellManNerd]

Drop the steed to turn your smites into non-spells again Solve all the problems

[@ODDnanref]

So you can just ignore it? Find steed was usually an auto-pick. Most of the paladin is already good enough without find steed and the benefits of the steed are to situational to balance around them always being present. So they have not. The changes don't seem to be a balance around Paladin always having find steed.

[@Google_Corporation]

I think this would be a good opportunity for the class level up options we saw in Tasha's, where you can choose to get this improved find steed, or focus on something else.

[@JakeCoker-gw1ii]

@@Google_Corporation Yeah I like that a lot. I actually think a full subclass built around it would be really cool too like if you were wanting to play that type of character there is a pretty obvious style that fits what you want to do. I am really excited to see what they do with mounted combat in the new version and excited to try how the new paladin plays. Its obviously a bit early to hate any changes they make without seeing how it interacts with the rest of the game.

[@brightwall-]

Look at the comments. People are not happy. Why have you continued with this?

[@kozmayhem7520]

Every Paladin player I DM for has requested not to use your changes to divine smite and I agree. The worse player effected at my tables was a girl playing PAM zealot barbarian/ vengeance paladin. Her whole character would become useless and wouldn’t work. Also nobody gives a damn about a free casting of find steed.

[@johnborneman8468]

It is funny how they totally gloss over the nerfing of Divine Smite and the divided opinions on that. I like almost everything they have done with the Paladin, but not real happy about the divine smite. Honestly, i have played a Paladin for a couple years and the current divine smite never really took over an encounter.

[@zanealexander3205]

Paladin is so strong already, but I feel like divine sense should just be a passive always active ability. Just maybe a disguised or nondetection can fool it. Feels bad using a resource to be like, any Undead around?

[@barcster2003]

They give you more though. So yes you may not use divine sense as often but it's better and gave you more channels per day.

[@Empty_Carbon]

​@@barcster2003it actually doesn't. You get to use it up to your charisma modifier amount of times + 1 so presumably at least twice even if you didn't bump your charisma past the multi-classing requirements. You do get to use it for longer however which will change how one would use it but realistically it will never give you more uses than it did in the 2014 phb.

[@barcster2003]

@@Empty_Carbon you get more channels and it's longer so it's somewhat similar. If you don't use divine sense you effectively gained two channels.

[@ConstructedChaos]

Smite makes right.

[@shoganmajere7913]

it's comply not understandable, the one thing in the "beta" testing everone was complaining about ( Divine smite is now a spell ) makes it into the release. Are they out of their mind, don't they see, that this is making divine smite almost completly useless, as it is now possible to counterspell it ........

[@ConstructedChaos]

@@shoganmajere7913 I did notice that made it through. Did they say if it was still a bonus action to use it as well? Or does it at least still trigger on attack/hit?

[@eliascabbio7598]

@@shoganmajere7913 you truly are not following the developement, aren't you? 1. counterpell is now a CON save, and it doesn't waste your slot 2. it's an expected nerf, in the old edition a level 5 paladin could use 3 spells worth of slots in a turn, that was insane 3. divine smite is now exactly like every other smite, I don't see how it's useless...

[@takeshimovies5869]

@@eliascabbio7598 so counterspell is like maintain concentration now? Well, it's make sense. Now every other caster will want to have ALOT of CON

[@eliascabbio7598]

@@takeshimovies5869 kinda, also it's not just an auto spell cancelling effect, so it's more fair.

[@RandomCrappyName]

I really don’t like making smites a spell. Feels real bad thinking of getting a dope crit on a Lich and wanting to pump that smite… only to get counterspelled.

[@someusername9591]

With the Counterspell nerf it should be a lot harder to counter a pali, especially at high levels

[@dajhier1]

People keep saying this but truly are you going to counterspell the Paladin and their sword or the wizard casting a 6th level fireball on your bbeg and all of their minions?

[@someusername9591]

@@dajhier1 yeah, really worried that this version has only lowered martial ceiling and not touched the more problematic spells. I really don’t want another edition of caster supremacy. 😔

[@anthonywalden239]

Counterspell now has a saving throw which will make Paladin's really good at avoiding it so it's quite likely that if you bait out a counterspell you'll end up using up a spell slot or per day use and still smiting.

[@dwil0311]

If a lich is counterspelling your paladin's smite, then you've won the encounter.

[@colexian]

"These aura effects like the aura for paladins or other auras didnt have a name, so we are naming it.... emanations" But why? Aura was right there.

[@Lycaon1765]

literally tho, he says it like as if this is a new invention lmao

[@colexian]

@@Lycaon1765 And then he says the word "aura" like he is trying to win a bet, make it a drinking game

[@NajaSide]

@@colexian Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but it seems to me like he's referring to general aoe effects that act similarly to the Paladin Aura. The Paladin Aura is a specific type of emanation, and calling the broader term the same thing as an aura may be like to cause confusion. That was you can just say aura rl quick and easy if you're talking specifically about the Paladin effect whereas if you're talking about the effect in general without specifically referring to the Paladin's, emanation is what the rulesbook would be talking about. In the middle of gameplay, it obviously literally would not matter. It's just a clarification so you know what exactly the book would be referring to if it happens to need to bring up one or the other.

[@chaoslordlordofchaos]

​@@NajaSide100%. It let's you separate paladin auras from spells, etc. that also emanate. Otherwise you'd have several other things making an aura, but it's different from the already name paladin ability auras. As is, the first thought of an aura is something that emanates from yourself, ie a paladin's aura. Just prevents possible confusion.

[@borofreak]

Finally, it's to also properly codify the game. Now, when another ability of spell says "Emanation", you know exactly what that means. It also lets different spells and effects interact better. For example, now you'd be able to specify that a certain spell or effect "blocks/suppresses emanation spells" or increases/reduces their range.

[@soulbleach3077]

“Divine Smite is now a spell” • Smite can be counterspelled • Smite can only be used once per turn (one leveled spell a turn so no stacking smite spells and divine smite) • Smite will cost a bonus action • Can no longer be viable with a barbarian multiclass (can’t cast spells in rage) • Can’t smite on opportunity attacks or sentinel attacks (aka a lot of fun dps builds) • Can’t smite in a silence spell (smites cost verbal components) • Smite spells are concentration so say goodbye to having any concentration spells up and using smite (aka the amazing Vengeance Paladin combo Hold Person and Smite on auto crits) “Why?” I’m currently playing in a 3 year long campaign my friends and I have poured are hearts into. We were planning on swapping to the new rule books and have been more than excited to switch over. I’m planning a barbarian who multiclassed into paladin for heavy story reasons though. It’s legitimately heartbreaking to see these changes for paladin and now I can’t see anyone playing this multiclass.

[@amaryliz2067]

You use a bonus action immediately after hitting to add the smite, so I assume the new "Divine Smite" spell is not concentration. Still super limiting though

[@albertrobles2498]

Just don't use the new rules. Run your character the same. If the new rules are "backwards compatible" then there shouldn't be any issues. The rule book is just some other guy's homebrew

[@soulbleach3077]

@@albertrobles2498 Unfortunately that’s something I’ll be forced to do. Was really looking forward to playing with new changes, but this is what I get for getting my hopes up.

[@loganreidy7055]

I really dont care about smite being a spell, I care a lot more about smite being a bonus action as was seen in the playtest

[@brysonflippin151]

Actually handicapping the class if it still cost a bonus action. Meanwhile a full spell caster can cast something like fireball or a crazy 9th level spell and deal more damage to more enemies AND still able use a bonus action. Like WTF

[@codebracker]

I mean all other smites already cost a bonus action in 5e, now divine smite matches the rest of smites

[@brysonflippin151]

@@codebrackerthen why is this a special Paladin ability if it’s the same as all of the other smites that other spell casters can learn? That would make it a pointless ability that’s baked into the class. Might as well play a cleric melee subclass and get 9th level spells

[@codebracker]

@@brysonflippin151 since in the UA all the smite spells are part of the class feature, I assume other spellcasters won't get smites on their spell list

[@Connor-N-Freeman]

I think he said you now cast it as part of your action, did he not?

[@Rexir2]

Yeah... Divine Smite being changed into a spell is a nerf. Anything with the Limited Magic Immunity feature is now immune to a paladin's smite.

[@MentalCrusader]

So divine smite can get countered now?

[@TheSkyrimfreak]

Yes

[@Z00PG00P]

@@Verd254the fiend about to get hit with a critical hit divine smite isn’t going to think it wasted a counterspell

[@ArturoGonzalez-st7xj]

yes, Rakshasas also laugh at all your smites with Limited Magic Immunity

[@snakeinabox7220]

@@Verd254 at higher lvs , casters / enemy casters have far more Spell slots then a paladin , counter spelling a 3rd lv Smite is a net negative for the paladin , since they have way less spell slots .

[@eliascabbio7598]

@@Z00PG00P Ok, which is a very specific case, and which could happen also to the cleric who was casting Banishment, losing all his action while doing it, and in both cases it would require a CON save. and the spell slot won't be wasted.

[@bartm2811]

Paladins can choose to ignore Fighting Style and take Cleric cantrips instead did they forget blessed warrior? which was paladin exclusive already

[@m.r.r.2636]

They specifically removed them so there is no class-exclusive Fighting Styles. Blessed Warrior got absorbed into the Paladin class' feature that grants a Fighting Style. This is a cleaner way to have the exact same options available and removes the need for the Fighting Initiate feat to clarify you can only select from the Fighter's list of Fighting Styles.

[@DanTheYoutubeAddict]

I'm looking forward to the Wizard coverage since most of their abilities are spells.

[@jaymohunter5149]

Ive heard there havnt been many changes to the wizard, just added spells

[@danielv4793]

Please give to wiz the create spell and modification spell

[@Camote_Economics]

Fireball is now a Wizard non-spell ability unlocked at level 1!!!

[@ShurikenSean]

why did they keep the smites as a bonus action change? it makes everything more clunky and you then have to move everything around to avoid bonus action and thrn they still have troo much to do with their bonus action. if you want to limit smites just say its once per turn and be done with it! smiting with unarmed is cool but I think ill just use the 2014 paladin and let them punch smite 🤷‍♂

[@cbeaird52]

It also means it can't be used a reaction. So a Paladin Mage Slayer can't really do the cool, smite as the caster does a spell. It's weird. Is this to make multiclassing less desirable?

[@collectorsalmanac]

Yeah, i have a Barb/Paladin which can do three attacks a turn and i could smite on all 3, if its just once now its not fun.

[@Google_Corporation]

I think that might be a bit of an intentional nerf... Paladin has nuts burst damage, and while it can feel really cool for a player to drop a ton of damage on an enemy at once, stuff like that can trivialize fights on the GM side. I think the new changes still allow the crazy burst damage fantasy, but raises it's performance floor (once for free per day) while lowering its ceiling. Also, if you still want to be able to do multiple of these at once, I think there might be some interesting multi class play between paladin and the new Eldritch Knight's abilities... It will depend on exact wording, but it's possible that EK's "replace attack with spell" option may allow double smites.

[@lordvolland1930]

Smite was op, bonus action is fine. It's good when you need to choose, it's interesting

[@collectorsalmanac]

@@Google_Corporation that’s actually a good point. Being cable to cast a level one spell as well as hitting on the first one with smite is pretty decent.

[@jeremyjacobsen7600]

I'm hoping Divine Smite isn't a spell. I could understand the move and I'll eventually get used to it, but man, imagine having your smite counterspelled or not being able to smite cause you're silenced

[@rudy_kagura]

sorry, bro)

[@libertylion6088]

Yeah, not happy at all that they turned the smite into an actual spell. This whole change is a huge nerf to the divine smite at many levels. Giving them 1 extra freebee does not counter this huge nerf.

[@mjsstujo1]

Any party should be elated that a monster would waste a counter spell on a smite

[@icetang97]

@@mjsstujo1unless it was a critical smite…

[@mrgrumpit]

Well you cant crit smite if it's a bonus action spell

[@gregboyd529]

No one liked Smite being a spell why heck did you keep it?

[@binolombardi]

I believe it was one of the features that they identified as needing to be capped regarding total damage potential. Divine smite was one of the game features they were going to nerf regardless of what the community said. impact of surprise was one of those features too. sharpshooter/great weapon feats were on the list too.

[@Sepiriel]

Because whether we want to admit it or not it was a feature that was not good for the health of the game. Treantmonks commentary about it was right, the game needs smites to change and making them spells was the right choice

[@goattron]

@@Sepiriel wrong

[@codebracker]

I liked it

[@codebracker]

​@binolombardi I really hope sharpshooter looses the ability to ignore cover, it's just op

[@themattimirshow4401]

Cool cool, change Smites back. Once per turn, actually a spell, and have to cast before you roll attack is abysmal. Horrendous change.

[@Bionda_5.0]

Wait, divine smite is a spell now? So we can't smite now on extra attacks? or on bonus actions for Polearm Master? Has spell use change?

[@barcster2003]

No you can't on extra attacks, or on polearm master. They get a free use and a free casting of steed and some other changes however.

[@Bionda_5.0]

@@barcster2003 wow the age of the Paladin is numbered

[@barcster2003]

@@Bionda_5.0 I think its more powerful than people think a number of the smites got buffs. We will have to see if it ups in levels like it did in the playtest because if it does then it was like getting another of your top level spells for free for the purpose of smiting. Combined with the find steed for free that's like freeing up a number of spells or smites you didn't have before

[@Bionda_5.0]

@@barcster2003 yea you’re right. Can’t wait to see.

[@CreativeUsernameEh]

@@barcster2003Respectfully idgaf about Find Steed. Id play Ranger if I wanted an animal companion. Smiting was the Paladin’s main feature and the massive nerfs ruin the class.

[@AkselGAL]

So let me see.... how did max-damage changed... Being an level 5 Paladin, getting haste, have Polearm Master and Heavy Weapon Mastery. Assuming strenght 15 Enemy comes to me. I give out one attack or opportunity, three regular attacks and the polearm end as a bonus action. D&D 5E, two times 1W10+3W8 (2nd Level spell smite)+12, two times 1W10+2W8 (1st Level spell smite) + 12, one time 1W4+2W8 (1st Level spell smite) + 12. Combined: 4W10 + 10W8 + 1W4 + 60 D&D 5.5E, one time 1W10+3W8 (2nd Level spell smite)+12, three times 1W10 + 12, no bonus action attack Combined: 4W10 + 3W8 + 48 Averaged damage: 5E: 125 5.5E: 79 And with each higher spell grade, the gap widens. Is anyone really thinking, Paladin players will go for the 5.5 version instead of the 5e version?

[@wizzzjer]

Why 3 regular attacks tho?

[@AkselGAL]

@@wizzzjer polearm mastery, two full attacks on fifth level with the standard action and one attack with the bonus action.

[@michaelcords4006]

JC/MM - "Alright so for the paladin, lets take away their ability to smite on every attack. And to do so, we will make this paladin smite a spell. So we can make sure there wont be any Barbarian Paladin Multiclasses. OH! But lets give em a free horse! Players will like that right?" Players: *all in unison* "No." JC/MM: "Awesome! We received so much positive feedback about this, that we are pushing it through to final print."

[@Nihilix89]

Yeah...I don't want a steed, why are you forcing this on me? Fuggin...taking my smites.

[@aquila1290]

I'd love to know which designer thought every pally player wants to be mounted. Also, this BA smite thing just made all Sorcadins quite useless. You have no way of using up the extra spell slots you get, and you can't use quickened spell on green flame blade to get another attack and smite on the same turn.

[@Psuedo-Nim]

Waah. the Smite spells are better, you are getitng spell access earlier, a free starting smite, better Channel divinities, more uses of them, weapon mastery..oh no, you cant just be a one trick pony who runs out of spell slots after one fight. The horror.

[@Psuedo-Nim]

@@aquila1290 Who cares about Sorcadins? Its about making bette rpaladins, not abusive multi class combos.

[@Nihilix89]

@@Psuedo-Nim What's wrong with being a one trick pony? I liked it. It was fun. Apologies for not having fun your way.

[@jaylensmith9826]

They did my Oath of the Ancients dirty give us back spell resistance

[@ArturoGonzalez-st7xj]

The new aura is bad, the only common damage type there is Necrotic, Radiant is almost non-existent and Psychic is very uncommon.

[@darkmoon2503]

It’s also weird because the new Ancients aura makes FAR more sense on Watchers.

[@kingzseventh7017]

The old aura is average as heck

[@redstorm8373]

At higher levels, I feel like this is actually going to be better, since high level mobs rarely actually use spells, but instead use abilities that act like spells, but would have bypassed the old aura.

[@devinkey1865]

Please make smite be a "once per turn" thing like sneak attack. If I heal someone, or help someone with a bonus action, I'd rather not regret that I'd i get a critical hit.

[@Alex-rq8mh]

Rakshasa and other monsters with limited magic immmunity are now immune to paladin smite

[@HokkaidoMaster]

Spell immunity creatures are, IMO, a little silly so this change is fine with me.

[@Verd254]

We'll have to see if the new monster manual even keeps those monster features.

[@eliascabbio7598]

depends on how the monsters are redisigned

[@aquila1290]

I didn't even think about that. So now smites are just worse than ever, take up a bonus action that could've been used for a polearm master or GWM or some other type of bonus action attack or spell or even lay on hands, they can be counterspelled, and several creatures are now resistant or immune to them straight up. yay.

[@dwil0311]

This is a good thing.

[@fallenphoenixiv]

While there were a lot of good changes in this class. With this version of smite, my group has all but agreed that we will not be using this version of smite. I will say that limiting it to once per turn or by turning into a spell was good, but also requiring as a bonus action was too much.

[@jessebutler9352]

Yeah my polearm master Sorlock was basically a smite vending machine and that’s all over in this edition.

[@fallenphoenixiv]

Yeah I'm not fully on board with turning it into a spell either because of the reasons you brought up, but it is an easy way to nerf feature in not too many words.

[@Fallenharmony13]

​@fallenphoenixiv Once per turn, I think it is good enough in my opinion I like how Wizards was just like " hmmmmm people say paladin smite is broken so what do we do" one guy: Balance it accordingly so that it has the same growth potential as our other class reworks?" 'Guy gets thrown out a window' Other guy: How bout we make it clunky and eat up action economy more than anything and limit emencly what a paladin could do in a turn? WOC: Give this guy a yacht the players will love that!🤑

[@fallenphoenixiv]

@connorwells1855 that really does seem like how it was handled. 🤣

[@WearingGoldluck]

Man, I think we all knew a smite nerf was coming with how the playtest was looking but I didn’t think that they would go for the hardest nerf that could come up with. It consuming your bonus action is just going to make it as unpopular as the other bonus action smite spells. I feel like making it once per turn was a much better alternative that didn’t completely defang most Paladin builds, as I really feel that the only viable build for them is going to be sword and shield (or other one-handed weapons) and they’re going to solely slot into a defensive/support role in parties or the the few offensive builds that will exist will largely just ignore Divine Smite and Paladin’s Smite for most of their careers.

[@markalexander6036]

The biggest nerf to the Smite is the fact that it is a bonus action to activate. That means you can only use it once per round and it eats up your action economy, which is a serious nerf. I wouldn't worry so much about Counterspell since that spell is gonna be nerfed anyway. Besides, Paladins are going to be very hard to Countersspell given their Aura of Protection. Enemies will more likely prioritize using Counterspell on the dedicated casters.

[@Pandormu]

its also a spell now, so only once a turn even if your dm is nice and gave you another BA via a potion or something. and some demons/fiends/celestials are immune to spells of x or below,

[@markalexander6036]

​@@Pandormu To be clear, I understand why people are upset by all these nerfs, but most of them feel kind of irrelevant. Enemies with spell immunity? How often do those enemies show up? You think the spellcasters have an easier time fighting that? I'd argue the Paladin has a lot more going for them in those rare encounters. You can still hit them twice with your magical melee weapon, benefit your whole party with aura of protection, and Lay on Hand your allies for 50 hitpoints when they go down. Paladins will be contributing just fine against those super rare anti-spellcaster encounters. Like the Counterspell issue, I'm not convinced that spell-immune enemies is a super relevant issue for the new Paladin. I rest my case that the most relevant nerf by far is that you have to spend a bonus action for Smite, limiting it's use to once per turn, and eating up your available actions.

[@fullmetalpotato1258]

If i run the 2024 rules at my table, I'm just going to run duvine smite as it was before as these changes are awful. They were unpopular in the playtest yet you kept those changes and made them WORSE. At least in the playtest we got all smite spells prepared for free, thats not in this version. Smite can now be counterspelled, takes up a bonus action so you can't be a dual wielding paladin unless you use daggers, its a spell you cant use it with a barbarian multiclass, etc. This change is awful and unwarranted. If you just wanted smite to be once per turn, just put a usage cap on it and keep it a class feature that was not a spell. This is the worst change I've seen so far since the 2014 rules.

[@Heroic_Quests]

My gut tells me smite requiring your bonus action will be annoying. I'll hold off on making any judgements about the change however until I get the final book in my hands and at the table.

[@TheSkyrimfreak]

Paladins got a huge nerf, smites being a bonus action/once per turn sucks. These guys obviously didn’t understand that absolutely dumping smites on enemie’s heads was what was fun about paladins in the first place……

[@Psuedo-Nim]

Maybe people should learn how to play a paladin effectively. Simple smites with every attack is wasteful and inefficient--and paladins are way more than just smiting.

[@TheSkyrimfreak]

@@Psuedo-Nim OK 👍🏻

[@lobiankk77]

​@@Psuedo-Nim🤓

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

The fact that divine smite is a spell now means that it can be counter spelled or nullified if the Paladin is unable to use the components or use their arcane focus. Imagine spending your attack action, a spell slot, AND a bonus action for a massive divine smite and the DM could potentially just say no. I dare say most people will ignore the new rule and just say smite still works the same way it always has.

[@alejandrofernandez1324]

Imagine your dm ever saying NO

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

@@alejandrofernandez1324 that’s what features like counterspell can sometimes feel like.

[@leahbeah1585]

1st of all I wouldn’t be shocked at all if counterspell is also getting nerfed into the ground or straight up removed. 2nd I seriously doubt if your party/dm are playing smartly that a smite is ever gonna get counterspelled. Casters have so many spells that are so much scarier and more threatening than you getting a couple extra d8s on your attack

[@michaellaudani9948]

Can we counterspell smite now that it's a spell...? Yikes. The true hand of Veccna holds the strings at Wizards.

[@Manahyde]

Counterspell is probably getting that CON save nerf.

[@meiswaffle101]

@@Manahydetrue and you keep the slot but now you can only smite once per turn, can’t smite in an anti-magic field. If it has verbal components (in the test material it did) you can’t cast it in an area of silence. On top of that now monsters with limited magic immunity are just straight up immune to smite (Tiamat for example)

[@JoeyBilbo]

@@meiswaffle101it’s really not that bad. These are all things that other classes had to deal with. Now Paladin has to deal with it too, makes them less brain dead high damage. Coming from someone who just finished a year+ campaign as a Paladin who did double the damage of every other character every turn.

[@ctylorhendrick4413]

@@JoeyBilboso you are excited to play this new version of the paladin? I don’t think so.

[@smiteysmite2368]

Sooo Smite is a spell now, which means it can be counterspelled

[@nintendolegoboy]

Counterspell is going to be nerfed though, let's be real.

[@smiteysmite2368]

@@nintendolegoboy that's true

[@grantparker6047]

Not to mention, burning a reaction and a spell slot to stop 5d8 damage at really high levels isn't the best use of an enemy spell caster's action economy.

[@Smasherv15]

Counterspell has been changed most likely, it certainly was in UA

[@gorgit]

@@grantparker6047 It would be decent on a crit, but then again, its a counterspell. Id say its fair.

[@BurntBrioche]

This Smite hurt is my favorite line for any Paladin to say

[@cubancavalier3051]

Does smite being a spell now mean it can be counterspelled?

[@barcster2003]

Yes but people are really worried about a unlikely scenario.

[@LuminescentCnidaria]

​@@barcster2003 yeah except that now that it's a possibility it will definitely get used. That's not even a question, DMs will counterspell what they can. Also, this means you can only DS 1/turn, can't use it on a reaction attack of opportunity, it won't affect a rakshasha or any other creature with similar immunity to low level spells, and can't be used in Silence. This video talks about greater versatility, but now the entire action economy revolves around making sure I can smite instead of just throwing one in there when it was convenient.

[@danfelder8062]

If the goal is to relieve paladins of their spell slot pressure, why give a free divine smite instead of a free something eles? Giving a free divine smite doesn't address the issue of players feeling obligated to save their spell slots for smites. They have more smites available per day which does help a little but if the goal is to make it okay to use other spells, it'd be better to give them a free bonus slot they can only use on other spells (not divine smite). If it's a thematic issue, can give them one of each for thematic balance.

[@ChickenSoupMusic]

I think they’ve actually made the gap between martials and casters even bigger. Nerf smite, GWM, SShooter, and Multiclassing while also moving features further back in levels? GG all the things that were allowing martials to try and keep up.

[@urinalpatty5386]

There is no gap between martials and casters when the game is being balanced properly. I can guarantee you that 90% of DMs are not following the "Adventuring Day" mechanics. Once you start having 3+ combats between long rests, it really starts to show that martials are more consistent and have more stamina in the long run, with casters being burst dps/utility (which is what they are supposed to be)

[@Knight_Marshal]

Anyone notice the the paladin at 3:53 is holding her hammer backwards?

[@Deiniel91]

It looks like the artist wanted to make look like the paladin made an upper cut style of a swing, but fudged up the hand positioning. Artist knows how to draw, but clearly doesnt know how you hold or swing a hammer.

[@Manahyde]

Maybe she's switched to piercing damage

[@androlgenhald476]

Lol, same. I was staring at it trying to figure out what the artist was trying to convey

[@Camote_Economics]

Damn, the AI do be glitching

[@KayKayLemur]

They really nerfed ancients paladin huh, not like that the aura feature was the main reason anyone took the subclass

[@katyprarie]

I'm guessing this is because some of the new monsters won't have 'spells' anymore but rather abilities that emulates spells and this is their way of trying to keep the damage resistance. But it's 3 rare damage sources so it's like 💀 ...why not elemental damage? Wherein the spells casted at around level 6-10 is most commonly those kind of damages anyways...idk...having to wait til you fight mindflayers to take less damage from the mindblast is... interesting

[@Lathaon]

Well, we weren't going to take it for that abysmal Channel Divinity at 3rd level, were we? It was basically just the Oath Spells at low levels. I'll miss the old aura. I don't think the new version will work out as a nerf as opposed to a sidegrade, but it feels more arbitrary.

[@conradkorbol]

This isn’t a huge nerf imo. Not all damage was spells and not all aoe is spells. I like this change as it feels more consistent even tho it’s not actually as good in some contexts

[@T0beyeus]

The old PHB Paladin subclasses now lose a Channel Divinity option in their subclass whereas the Oath of Glory still gets their Inspiring Smite and Peerless Athlete abilities. Nothing was mentioned but I hope that they replaced the lost Channel Divinity options. It would have been nice to see each of them get a non-combat Channel Divinity option.

[@drowish95z22]

This may be the first example where a 2014 version is more fun than the 2024 version. R.I.P. Divine Sense and Divine Smite

[@Psuedo-Nim]

You'd be wrong. If you think paladin smite every attack, you don't know how to play a paladin. And Divine Sense was useless.

[@tantalus_complex]

*Divine Sense* was _terrible_ for any table that played it RAW, unless your party is constantly in large open spaces in the presence of enemies they can't see. Divine Sense can't overcome full cover. Yes, now it competes for your Channel Divinity, but you also have _more uses_ of your Channel Divinity, which _easily_ compensates.

[@tantalus_complex]

2024 Paladins have far improved features _overall._ Divine Smite has been nerfed a bit? Fine. Instead, your Paladin is more customizable, more exploitable due to power creep in spells, has access to all Fighting Styles and Weapon Masteries. It's a _good deal,_ friend.

[@BootiSwet]

Divine sense was designed for RP.

[@jimmyrepine8952]

Divine Smite needed to be reigned in. It was too good. In general nerfs suck, but, the change is better for the game overall.

[@palatonian9618]

I have to agree that the smite changes are a gigantic misfire.

[@JaviusSama]

One thing you haven't changed that you should have is the fact that you take your oath at THRID level. The paladin is NOT a fighter, the paladin is a warrior that gets their power from their strong belief in a cause. Making the oath at leverl 3 makes no sense.

[@5-Volt]

They're also doing this for Clerics, Warlocks & Sorcerers.. Awful storytelling & flavor.

[@brilobox2]

They are also explicitly recommending that characters start at 3rd level unless they have never played before.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Smite being a spell means RIP Barb smiting? And also RIP with Ranger stacking? Maybe it’s more of an issue with the core system aggravated through that loss, but oof

[@collectorsalmanac]

Yeah thats made me salty. my Barbadin is not a happy women.

[@codebracker]

I hope the ranger spells also work like the new smite, instead of concentration

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

@@codebracker coming back to this from the future, and we unlocked a new oof

[@codebracker]

@@BestgirlJordanfish they released ranger spells?

[@zoberraz]

Not a fan of Paladin's Smite. It being a spell applies constraints that were not there before (i.e.: can't combine it with Healing Word as a bonus action). Not to mention Rakshasas will shrug it off, unless the smite is upcasted up to 7th-level (impossible for a single-class paladin).

[@richryanjames]

Not to mention them making lay on hands a bonus action at the same time. They really said “Hope you never want to have a free bonus action ever again.”

[@Bookworm159]

I actually really like it. I always felt that paladins were overtuned, and now it feels more strategic, where you're deciding what bonus action would help most this turn. Do you want to smite for more damage? Or lay on hands to drop a huge chunk of healing on someone? Or summon a spiritual weapon because the enemy is flying? As for Rakshasas, they've always been a little bit weird. Especially the vulnerability to specifically piercing damage from good aligned characters. So weird.

[@brilobox2]

Magic immune creatures nullify every spell a full caster has before 11th level. Why were Paladins allowed to ignore that with the feature that made them busted? Did they not cast magic? It says right there, spellcasting. I’ll tell you why: Paladins have been way overtuned since 2014.

[@richryanjames]

@@Bookworm159 Except you already made the choice between smiting and lay on hands in 5e because they both were part of incompatible actions. Before you could smite and healing word in the same turn of you had the build for it, but that’s gone now. Lay on hands being a bonus action would make it more versatile, but making it and smite a bonus action brings us back to neutral and means it will be unlikely that we will use our bonus action for anything else.

[@richryanjames]

@@brilobox2 Ah yes we should help the poor underpowered spellcasters. The paladin was the only martial or half caster keeping up with the full spellcasters. They’re buffing all those other classes to help them keep up. Sucks that they are nerfing the paladin into the ground at the same time. Remember this isn’t just one nerf to smite. They didn’t just make smite a spell. They made it spell, made it so you can only use it once per turn, made it so it takes your bonus action, and made it so you can’t use it on an opportunity attack. I could maybe see a couple of these nerfs being reasonable, but all of them is insane

[@wizardsling]

So is (divine) smiting only once per turn? Does it cost a bonus action?

[@KevinVideo]

It costs a bonus action after you hit a foe. It's basically verbatim to the One D&D playtest.

[@chronenojysk5107]

The fundamental problem with this change is that, not only are they nerfing the damage, but also have 0 incentive to fully invest in the class itself. Divine Smite 5.5E is no longer capped at 4th level spells. Meaning, if you want to cast Divine Smite at with 5th Level Spell Slot, you can now deal 6d8 Radiant Damage, 6th level spell slot? Now it's 7d8 Radiant Damage! You want me to use more spells than to use Divine Smite? Ok! I'll just put 2 levels into Paladin and invest ALL of my levels into Cleric. Because A. Clerics have WAY MORE spell options and utility. B. You have more Spell Slots, and C. Divine Smite is not capped at 4th level spell! Anything that a Paladin does when casting magic on their spell list, a Cleric can do it 10x better.

[@captainkosmic7013]

More rp feats and spells please. Zone of Truth is my jam

[@jesse6927]

So what I'm hearing is: "Paladins are weaker fighters/clerics with a magical horse sometimes. Nearly everything requires concentration and a bonus action and everything else requires your Channel Divinity so you basically get to do everything you used to be able to do but way less often so we sprinkled in one free bonus action smite and one free hour of a magical pony ride so you won't notice." I genuinely like a lot of the changes they've made for everything else, but whoever made this new paladin shouldn't have a job anymore.

[@libertylion6088]

Paladins are about to find out how it felt to be a ranger for the last 10 years. 😒

[@jessebutler9352]

lol I was just listening to this and thinking that I might as well try playing a ranger now.

[@Simon_Laserna]

How come?

[@megaairsoft15]

I don’t see how? None of these changes are bad.

[@Alex-rq8mh]

Paladins damage is now really bad unless they use 2 weapon fighting and go 12 paladin and 8 sorcerer

[@Pavel-wj7gy]

Curious to see if Gloomstalker gets nerfed.

[@shawnmayo8210]

I don't think anyone was missing spells at level 1, which is the fastest level to move on from. The spell slinger over fighter option is nice for customization. Access to all styles is iffy. That detracts from the Fighter's class benefit there. Robust? Sure. But everyone option? Not so much. Eminations seems like an unnecessary label. Are we now going to see another boiling down to this? Are we going to MTG our way to nit-picky abilities, spells and counters to this newly named but always existing in many variants feature? Also, "Auras have been moved from a main window to sub-tabs" isn't really doing much.

[@nathanh2664]

The other classes became more powerful and the iconic Paladin ability is now nerfed. I would now rather be a fighter.

[@pepejaba5454]

Smite's Nerf isn't so much a problem for the paladin as it is for his companions. See, limiting it to one kara per turn is fine. But by taking away the paladin's bonus action (and you're literally taking it away), you're kind of taking away his ability to use bonus action spells, which are often useful to the team. “Hey friend, I see you're surrounded by enemies. It would be nice to use Shield of Faith on you, but unfortunately I'd rather use Smite.” - that's what it looks like to me. Now we need to look at how the Warlock's Smite will work as well. Specifically the Eldritch Smite invocation. It already looks better than the paladin's Smite, but if it doesn't spend a bonus action, the paladin is officially half-dead.

[@Pandemos]

Okay, so I dont want to play 2024. They don't even know how Paladins, the quintessential classical hero class for DnD. If they can't get this right, they're doomed for the rest. They think Paladins are basically just horse people. You know, since you'll be dungeon crawling, you're really going to use that steed...ha!

[@jamesshuttlesworth]

Thanks for trying to balance everything and make improvements. However, unless the smite spell is unable to be counterspelled, I can see adversarial DMs now targeting paladins to make them do nothing with their BA by constantly using counterspell on smite. Also, I thought you were trying to preserve class identity so what stops a bard from using magical secrets to steal it, or worse, making one dip in paladin a must for Cha casters instead of investing 2 levels? 😒

[@Dropintheocean17]

Can’t wait for my DM to Counterspell a core ability feature, I’m sure that won’t suck at all

[@brilobox2]

- every caster that wasn’t Paladin for the last 10 years

[@renegade619]

Rogue laughs in missed Sneak Attacks.

[@LuminescentCnidaria]

Making smite something that can be counterspelled and used just 1/turn sucks. This was the iconic feature of the class, and if this was the option when I was building my paladin 3 years ago I would have rather been a cleric. They mention "honing in on that wish fulfillment of wanting to smite more". How??? Answer that question, because now I'm smiting less.

[@Alcadias0]

I cant wait to NOT use 2024 paladin and just keep using 2014 Paladin. It's great. That way a Rakshasa who is immune to any spell below level 6 isn't just immune to my Divine Smite which is a spell now.

[@trashboat7101]

Love it, all cool stuff, we will humbly be ignoring divine smite being a spell tho

[@J4J0]

It defies belief, how an upgraded aura of alacrity is still so apathetically lackluster. Who gives a damn about an extra 10 ft. of movement, compared to damage resistances, +2 AC, saving throw bonus...

[@life-destiny1196]

One situation where it may matter is the case of the Paladin diving in to a bunch of creatures to save a squishy who got caught out of position, or a friendly NPC in similar dire circumstances. That extra movement speed may let them disengage more safely. And, mind you, that's only the subclass aura--they're still getting the saving throw bonuses and everything else in the core class, your opportunity cost is just the other subclass' effects.

[@J4J0]

@@life-destiny1196 I AM comparing it to just other subclass' aura effects! Others seem to be on par with mass level1-2 spell effects, but this one is literally 2 extra squares. For being so extremely situational, I'd expect it to knock some socks off, yet here we are.

[@HappyCatholicDane]

@@life-destiny1196How can a paladin save a squishy, when it is just a worse fighter mixed with a worse cleric. I don’t see myself ever playing this version of paladin.

[@bobabubble3628]

I would like to point out Oath of Glory Paladins get Haste as one of their Oath spells, and Haste doubles movement speed

[@TheArchmike]

Changing the ancient aura fron resistance to spell damage to 3 rare damage types is not an "enhancement"

[@saberaq]

A lot of the new monsters don't actually cast spells anymore. It's not impossible for an Ancients Paladin atm to use the aura maybe once during an entire campaign

[@Phiro00]

those damage types are not rare lol

[@xaviersandoval1765]

So Pally/Barbarian multiclass is dead now, right? Can't smite while raging anymore. That really sucks.

[@life-destiny1196]

You also can't rage while wearing heavy armor, which means you needed STR DEX CON and CHA all to be pretty high on the same character. Though that's more the fault of Barbarian's weird DEX reliance than anything, and, yeah, losing the option sucks even if it's hard to optimize because of the stats. Maybe ask your DM to houserule an exception for smites?

[@davidinserra1965]

Paladin was my favorite class. Won’t be rolling this version with BA smites. I get the pally was strong and wasn’t going to get buffed and might even get nerfs. So I’m fine with once per turn and I’m even ok with making it a spell (although that denies the barabarian multiclass) but using a BA clashes with BA spells, BA feats (like GWM, PAM, Shield Master) and other BA things like potions or lay on hands. Smite is literally in conflict with so much of the rest of the game that it forces the pally to forgo various multiclasses or other customization uses. I’ll ask to use and when I DM suggest we house rule the 2014 paladin but only add the weapon mastery. Very sad.

[@brilobox2]

Everything you mentioned is also subject to change. Hope they nerf GWM and PAM.

[@m.r.r.2636]

@@brilobox2 They already have in the UA material. Well GWM and Sharpshooter loses their trade accuracy for damage portions. GWM gets a different damage booster that is much less powerful. SS you won't really recognize as the same. PAM is technically not getting nerfed aside from disallowing a Spear + Shield user the option of a 1d6 hit and 1d4 hit. And it cannot be used together with Sentinel to trigger the movement stop when PAM grants the reaction attack when an enemy enters your reach. So yeah, they are nerfing martial damage.

[@m.r.r.2636]

@David you could also just houserule that Divine Smite doesn't cost a Bonus Action (still spell and all that and probably add "once per turn"). Then you could possibly experiment with extending that to the other Smite spells, just to see. I'd say there are some decent upgrades in the 2024 version too like Lay on Hands as a BA instead of full Action. Similarly the spells granted from your Oath seems to be always prepared, granting you more options. But yeah, the Paladin is definitely getting shafted in the 2024 version compared to other classes.

[@davidinserra1965]

@@m.r.r.2636 indeed that is a reasonable alternative.

[@davidinserra1965]

@@brilobox2 final feats text has been released. GWM (yes +10/-5 changed) still provides a bonus action attack, PAM (also buffed with +1 str) still provides bonus action attack. Only shield master changed to not be a BA. So the most iconic and standard martial feats clash with the primary paladin ability. Garbage.

[@thilinalankapuradiggamaral7808]

Divine smite a spell? Ill ignore that.

[@kingofawesomerulse3625]

Wait if smite is now a spell does the mean that you can only attack once a turn if you use it. Like greeen flame blade and also can it now be counterspelled

[@barcster2003]

You can attack twice but you can only smite once.

[@thiagoknofel8982]

I hope they make an errata, changing the casting time for diven smite for "none"😢😢

[@eliascabbio7598]

it's a bonus action that you take when you hit, so no problems on that

[@Rain593]

​@@eliascabbio7598 But now the Hexadin can't stack divine smite and eldritch smite AND a smite spell AND booming blade. :(

[@ArturoGonzalez-st7xj]

@@eliascabbio7598 it is a problem because it can be counter spelled, its is nullified by Limited Magic Immunity, cannot be used on reaction attacks and compete with bonus action attacks.

[@thiagoknofel8982]

​@@eliascabbio7598Its a problem since paladina need BA for a Lot os Its features

[@megaairsoft15]

⁠@@ArturoGonzalez-st7xjNot all of this is necessarily bad. The only one that’s truly an issue is not being able to smite on a reaction attack.

[@jamesbg314]

Putting a significant part of the Paladin's power budget behind find steed SUCKS. It should be an option, but not the only options, not every planet is a mounted combatant, but according to these rules they are. At least give an optional other use for characters that don't have a steed (or even characters that DO have a mundane steed). Like I get they want people to use the spell (no one used it in og 5e) but that could just be acheived with the buffs they added, not forcing it down peoples throats, at the cost of class identity (smiting) I love paladins, I hate mounted characters. There should at least be other options at the same level for characters that will not be mounted. Maybe absorb elements for free a couple times for paladins that exemplify being an immovable mountain? Maybe a feature that when using a throwing weapon (spear or hammer) you can do a ranged smite or travel along the path of the throw? You know for that Thor/Gwyn from Dark souls feel. Maybe sprouting angel wings given to you from your god? Maybe a mantle/halo of light that gives cool effects. Some might argue these feel more subclass based and I'd say that the find steed feels like a subclass explicit feature. There's so much Paladin playspace they are ignoring here for something (in my opinion of course) really lame. I don't want to play a paladin and be pressured into having a mount, I want that to be an option, but I can't just ignore a feature my class gets. So adding this feature actually turns me off of the class.