Do Dying and Rising gods Prove Jesus is a Myth?

[@carolynjohnson6213]

You really have been given a great talent...and you're definitely not burying it! I learn so much from your videos and they have helped me regain my faith in the truth of Jesus and the gospel. There was a short period of time where I believed the skeptics and my faith was shaken. I'm very grateful I found your channel. You're rebuttals to what skeptics say are clear, logical. I've lost count of the times where I've shaken my head wondering how in the world I ever believed the arguments of skeptics and atheists.

[@Mere_Christian]

All in the name of God.

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

Great and lowly are RELATIVE. 😉 Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@leonardobarbieri1292]

Atheists: Jesus is a dying and rising *GOD* Also atheists: Jesus' divinity is a late invention.

[@benclark4823]

So you believe in multiple gods 🤨

[@leonardobarbieri1292]

@@benclark4823 What is the point?

[@sjappiyah4071]

LOOOOOL They’re not even consistent with their denials 😂

[@alexanderholmes-brown9593]

Hi Leonardo. Most mythicists believe rather that Jesus’ deification was early and his euhemerization late. So you’ve stated that incorrectly and attributed it to “atheists”. Mythicists say that Jesus started as a dying and rising godman and was given historical reference, a biography set in real places and times with historical references, afterwards. Part of that is pretty mainstream scholarship. The part I mean here is, that the gospels are seeking to do something more than simply recount what really did happen. They make up stories, or at the least adapt real happenings, in order to, say, fulfil this or that prophecy, to justify this or that church position, to enfranchise this or that tradition, lineage, practice, person. “Look, what I am teaching is true, Jesus himself said it. We’ll I wrote it, but look, I wrote him saying it. So you know it’s true!” That kind of thing. That’s true of much scripture in every tradition - we can trace early stories to later settings, they reveal it in clues of anachronisms. The logical extension that mythicists take, and this I’m in no way claiming is mainstream, is to say that perhaps Jesus’s whole historical persona, or most of it - that is, what we get in the gospels - is created for purposes of later church leaders. Actually that’s fairly mainstream in secular scholarship, but what is fringe in mythicism is saying that there is really little to no evidence that there ever even was a Jesus. The logical step is, if we know this and this and this are lies and fabrications, why assume that any of it is true. They rightly point out that other cults to savour figures, including dying and rising ones, but many thousands others too, could begin around purely heavenly figures and angels and demigods. Why not Jesus? Why assume he has an historical core? So, anyway, I just wanted to clarify what the position was. And also to clear up that it shouldn’t be conflated with atheism. Most atheist biblical scholars/Jesus scholars are not mythicists. They believe the mythology that is in the gospels-and it is full of myth one way or the other, early or late-is late, coming after a more mundane historical figure who mistakenly probably thought he was the messiah, or whose followers thought he was.

[@leonardobarbieri1292]

@@alexanderholmes-brown9593 Brother, my comment was more to be satirical than to be 100% accurate. That was not a strawman argument. But I appreciate your reply, thanks. But I have to say that I don't agree with some of what you said. I don't think the Evangelists would be inclined to invent anything. The main questions of the Early Church do not appear answered in the mouth of Jesus. For instance: *The controversy of the Judaizers in Acts 15. OMG, the apostles revoked commandments instituted by God himself without a single reference to the words of the historical Jesus. Christ was just silent about that. *The controversy concerning apostolic secession in the Epistle of Clement. I think 1Corinthians 7 is also an evidence against the Christians simply inventing Jesus material; just like so many other passages that seems to differentiate "revelations" given to some Christians from the actual words of the historical Jesus. Now, I agree with you that some passages could have been framed to fulfill prophecy. But a historical core is essential to that. Read John 2.17; 2.22; 12.14-15; 16.13; Luke 2.19; 2.51.

[@kevinh2345]

Funny how Jesus is supposedly ripped off from every god. Even the ones who were never worshipped until centuries after Christ walked the earth.

[@kevinh2345]

@Jordan Steele protip: walls of garbage aren't convincing. Second tip, citing academics who have zero credibility and pose thoughts in the form of questions is literally how Eve was led to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Good luck spreading your weird fetish material, I hope you get it out of your system.

[@TheJoker-wr1cp]

@Jordan Steele Jesus literally fulfilled all the Old Testament prophecies and talked about events with perfect precision

[@whiskeredtuna]

Yea, that and the Bible isn’t just four books (gospels) it’s 66 books written over a 1500 year period by 40 different authors living on 3 different continents yet one can harmonize the scriptures. I could argue that Satan proves the Bible whether he intends to or not! He shows up in Genesis, Job, the gospels, revelations, and is mentioned as the foe or enemy of mankind all throughout the scriptures. That’s 1500 years worth or writings which is a lot to invest into a myth.

[@NathanD.-yo8zg]

Inanna's resurrection after 3 days dates back at least 1,000 years before Christianity and Inanna was worshipped in the city of Tyre...

[@Chemosh418]

No Jesus isn’t ripped off from every pagan god. Easter sunrise and Dec 25 marks Jesus as being ripped off from all pagan sun gods.

[@assassin9000]

It's the same myth Busters that wanna still say Jesus was mythical character. But he wasn't, the son of God was killed by the high priests of Judaism back then, as well as the Romans. His rising from the dead actually happened, for his resurrection could not be made up, as well as his crucifixion. He died for our sins, and he will soon return to restore peace back to God's world.

[@benclark4823]

God/Jesus/yhwh sacrifice Himself 🤨 to Himself 😑 to save us from Himself 😧 because of a rule He made Himself? 😡

[@rojh9351]

That it doesn’t make sense proves it must be true! Probably!

[@leoe5411]

@@benclark4823 think about it, humans met God and still killed him with their own hands, would that not reveal you to their true nature and why they needed to be save and do better?

[@TyrellWellickEcorp]

Amen!

[@cindyisa10]

​@@benclark4823 YOU SAY: "God/Jesus/yhwh sacrifice Himself 🤨 to Himself 😑 to save us from Himself 😧 because of a rule He made Himself? 😡" RESPONSE: This silly Hitchens-Dillahunty caricature gets it wrong on every level. To begin, God gave us His Son who willingly sacrificed himself TO US to save US from OURSELVES for OUR BENEFIT. In other words, God gave us His Son to save US murderers, sinners, fornicators, and liars from OURSELVES. The resurrection is God's stamp in the natural world order. It benefits those who desire to EAT from His body (fruit from the tree of Life) and live (Gen 2:8). The Son is OUR ETERNAL NOURISHMENT unlike the OT people who both performed (killed) and ate animal sacrifices for the benefit of temporal nourishment. Secondly, the rules are not arbitrary nor made up by God. Rather, they ARE God’s exact intrinsic immutable nature. His perfect LOVE and perfect JUSTICE both meet at the cross. As you can see, God permitted us to not only kill HIM (His Son Jesus), He also permits us (out of patience and enduring love) to live a filthy life of sin. The good news of His revelation is that He also permits you (if you want) to freely eat from the fruit from the tree of His Life. God doesn't save us from Himself. Rather He saves us from OURSELVES (sin). It's God's LOVE that defeats destroys all sin and death. Get it now?

[@NCVideo1]

Very clearly and logically thought-out and presented! Thank you!

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

Thank you, Howard.

[@DarrenGedye]

Wow, this is a phenomenal video. I have never heard of The Wreck of the Titan! What a persuasive argument.

[@pdxnikki1]

Good job as always, sir. 🤗🙏

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

Thanks again!

[@holdingpattern245]

I think the oddest quality of the Jesus myth belief is that it functions almost exactly like a conspiracy theory. Various similarities to other myths are framed to suggest a connection, and the lack of further evidence is framed to suggest a cover-up. It's no wonder that advocates of the belief moved towards falsely portraying other deities like Tammuz and Horus to further reinforce their belief, when their truth standards were so lacking from the start.

[@atlasaroadmaptomeaning]

A myth does not have to be a conspiracy in any way. Someone can believe something genuinely, but be wrong. Myths are psychological productions that speak to the nature of the human mind. Claiming that one who holds the view that Jesus was a myth is a conspiracy theorist is like saying those who believed Buddha was a myth were conspiracy theorists...

[@ryankrakinski8926]

@atlasaroadmaptomeaning “Claiming that one who holds the view that Jesus was a myth is a conspiracy theorist is like saying those who believed Buddha was a myth were conspiracy theorists...” Um, that’s exactly it. People who claim that Buddha never existed are also conspiracy theorists.

[@mbb--]

@@ryankrakinski8926 I didn't know there were "Buddha mythicists" as well as "Jesus mythicists." Maybe "Aristotle mythicists" or "Shakespeare mythicists" will be next.

[@IamGrimalkin]

@@mbb-- There are tons of people who claim Shakespeare never existed. In fact, quite often those people use similar logic to advocates of the documentary hypothesis.

[@atlasaroadmaptomeaning]

@@ryankrakinski8926 You're missing the point. There doesn't have to be malicious intent for someone to believe that Jesus was the son of God, and be wrong. You're presupossing the existence of a conspiracy. You're saying the gospel writers either really knew the son of god, or they invented the story. This is a false dichotomy. What if they believed they met the son of god and were wrong...

[@thecollierreport]

Those arguments never made sense to me

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

Yeah, me either.

[@atlasaroadmaptomeaning]

Read some Carl Jung. The argument hinges on the term "myth." It seems the presented viewpoint in this video is that myths are stories that are not true. However, this is far from the only definition of myth and does not represent the psychological definition in any way.

[@blugaledoh2669]

@@atlasaroadmaptomeaning what is the other definition.

[@atlasaroadmaptomeaning]

@@blugaledoh2669 According to guys like Carl Jung, myths are works that attempt to encapsulate the nature of the unconscious mind and its relation to the conscious mind. Christ was never the son of god, he was never some external figure (yes, there was a person this archetype was attached to, but he was not god.) Rather, Christ is a representation of the soul. That is why identical archetypes appear all over the world.

[@blugaledoh2669]

@@atlasaroadmaptomeaning Yeah that doesn’t really help me

[@Jim-Mc]

I specialized in Classical religion in grad school. Similarities are greatly exaggerated by NT guys like Ehrman. And some similarities are definitely just intentional. Mirroring the prophets, the NT writers are consciously saying Christ exceeded Baal and other deities.

[@IamGrimalkin]

Ehrman never emphasised the similarities between Jesus and pagan go's to my knowledge.

[@windblownleaf6450]

Ehrman is constantly doing that. He particularly likes using Romulous.

[@alvarengasoso]

My man, I thought your Archaeologist investigations were cool… Now this is just sweet! Your breaking down of fallacies over fallacies that these 'skeptics' compounds with usury is prime stuff. And your editing skills, whaat? Amazing, professor. The scholarship is as top-notch as ever. I almost can't believe this is a one-guy channel.

[@Hreodrich]

I don’t get why this particular argument has so many people bound up. The rising and dying gods trope never made sense as a point against Jesus to me even before I became a Christian. Then I would have said, so what? Their entire point is that Christ actually did in history what those other figures only did in myth. No after coming back to the faith, it only makes even more sense. All of these peoples by dint of their existing in creation had an innate sense of the structure of existence such that they intuited the necessity of a messiah even if they had no exposure to the Torah. The Logos is the structure of reality. The world was singing of the messiah before it even knew that it could know the messiah.

[@aaronharlow2137]

very good point. never thought of that.

[@Rocky-ur9mn]

Seriously IP your content is amazing

[@sethcaro]

This is among my top 3 YT channels. I’ve heard many difficult things to explain in the Bible that will not make stumble me… but might others and I didn’t have answers… here are the answers. To many many many of those difficulties.

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

thank you

[@ramadadiver59]

See what's so great about this is . Usually the atheists who spend most of their time in the field of philosophy to counter the existance of God ( cosmic skeptic rationality rules ) etc are horrible at history and the atheists who delve into history are horrible with logical and philosophy ( myth vision atheologica Paulogia etc ) So when someone like I.P who has delved into multiple fields of scholarship ..there's very few atheist KZbinrs that can match him. And this is what I love so much about this channel. It's multiple disciplines Don't be a jack of all trades master of none ..be a jack of all trades master if 1

[@drummerboy69n]

Richard Carrier claims Jesus didn't exist as a historical figure, much less any claims to divinity.

[@ramadadiver59]

@@drummerboy69n Richard Carrier is fringe . His opinion is of the same quality as flat earthers with a transparent anti religious bias

[@ramadadiver59]

Oh and just one last thing . Despite what these KZbinrs claim . They are really horrible at science

[@drummerboy69n]

@@ramadadiver59 Oh I agree 100%. Carrier is a very small minority voice in historical academia ( if he even qualifies ).

[@ramadadiver59]

@@drummerboy69n he qualifies as a historian . Not a new testament scholar . Some people believe that means Carrier is more objective . Well no a new testament scholar is a master in interpreting Christian texts ..so carrier is not an expert in this yet he tries to use the new testament to support his views .

[@sennajohn7686]

This is a really sharp analysis, you've done a great job.

[@somebodysomewhere5571]

Your videos never fail to deliver!

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

Thank you

[@Mere_Christian]

Inspiring Philosophy is unquestionably a role model when it comes to research. There is so much to learn from him, he never fails to deliver on superb content. Well done 👍🏻

[@atlasaroadmaptomeaning]

I honestly disagree. He has left out a massive perspective on this view. To speak about myth without mentioning some of the most influential experts on this topic such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell is laughable. They are the foundation of this inquiry.

[@cmk5724]

@@atlasaroadmaptomeaning What do Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell have to say about this specific issue, that you think IP should have included in this video?

[@atlasaroadmaptomeaning]

@@cmk5724 First his defintion of mythology is misleading. No one who studies mythology would say its a false story. Myth is so much more. Jung would argue that mythological narratives reflect the dynamic of the psyche at a certain moment of time in history. For example the myth of oedipus represents the inevitable reluctance of ego maturation. Global warming is a myth. Jesus is a myth. That doesn't mean they arent true. They both have much truth in them. But myths are about the collective psychological state of humanity. Myths are captivating and "real" or meta real. An analogy my professor used today was: If you put everyone into a collinder and sift through their psychological identity, you're left with a reside. This residue is reflected in mythology. It is what unifies the human experience. When a character like christ, comes into contact with this residue and makes it more acessible, it is so captivating that he is risen to the ranks of a god. Just as kings were before him, and shamans before them. Jesus is man (in the sense that he was born and existed) but also god (in the sense that he represents an interaction with, what is ultimately the unconscious.)

[@cmk5724]

@@atlasaroadmaptomeaning So you think that IP's research is laughable because he didn't include a philosophical discussion of the concept of "myth", which is not relevant to the claim that Christians heard pagan myths (in the sense of stories, not a psychological phenomenon) and copied them.

[@atlasaroadmaptomeaning]

@cmk5724 As I just mentioned, myths are much more than just stories. To say otherwise is a lie and does not coincide with experts on the subject. If you're going to speak about myths, you have to include the voices of experts on them. It's clear that IP is either unaware of this (and his study of the subject is shallow) or he purposefully ignored this line of evidence (and his study of the subject is dishonest).

[@hollyburton1957]

After reading the book of Adam and Eve I realized that Satan knew Gods plan so created the stories of dying and rising gods in mythology to degrade the story of the One True God coming to earth to die for our sins.

[@Azamat421]

Wow just stupid logic my god must be true the Bible said so

[@oolooo]

"We lie in the most obscene , obssesive and repeated fashion , that disproves Christianity"

[@benclark4823]

Christianity disproves itself 😂

[@Rocky-ur9mn]

@@benclark4823 ok Ben 🤓

[@iandewilde9287]

This is the best counter argument I've ever heard on this subject!! Its awesome and well done!

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

Thank you

[@omarwalker3056]

Can you do a video in response to Richard Carrier? That Josephus never actually writes about Jesus and it it was inserted into his work? Is this actually true?

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

It’s on my list

[@PowerfulRift]

@@InspiringPhilosophy There’s a lot Atheologica gets wrong too.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@PowerfulRift he’s not worth Michael‘s time is Michael has offered to debate him, and just have a discussion with him about this topic multiple times but he turned every single opportunity down. He also blocked me from his channel because I was pointing out the inaccuracies in his video on the resurrection of Osiris.

[@PowerfulRift]

@@pleaseenteraname1103 ok man good point

[@grubblewubbles]

​@@pleaseenteraname1103 when requested to debate with Micheal by some christians in the comments section of his video, all he did was insult him(the exact phrase I believe was "There's no point in spending two hours feeling like Shaq arguing with a midget whats on top of the fridge"). His fans aren't ant more charitable with their mudslinging either.

[@Jim-Mc]

Patterns are sometimes meaningless and exist by coincidence? I'd love to hear your thoughts on Jonathan Pageau.

[@ethanhocking8229]

Yes, Jonathan has an interesting take that is very similar to the one that C.S. Lewis had. Patterns are present by God’s design.

[@Nameless-pt6oj]

This is pretty good timing. I recently saw someone try to discredit the empty tomb story with the similarities of Callirhoe. Maybe this video can help me.

[@joaosolreis3004]

Guess who I'm talking about: a man who was not native to the country he would later come to rule. He wanted to dominate and unify Europe, but narrowly failed. His main enemy was England. He had a complicated love life. He persecuted Jews, confiscated their properties, and forced them to wear distinctive badges to identify themselves as Jews. His enemies were placed in prisoner camps and forced to work. The cold of Siberia brought an end to his expansionist ambitions. You thought it was Hitler, didn't you? Well, you're mistaken. I was actually referring to Napoleon Bonaparte. It just goes to show how easy it is to create parallels if you want to. Following the logic of atheists, I should then conclude that Hitler did not exist.

[@thegodofalldragons]

Move over, Holocaust deniers. Make way for the Nazi-deniers!

[@WiserThanEinstein]

Always putting out great work. 😊

[@PowerfulRift]

Yep, Atheologica is wrong. God lives! Amen 🙏

[@laurenbeard8509]

So thankful for this content. On my search of finding the rational backing for my faith and another KZbin channel uses the notion that Christianity is mythology as its main way to justify athiesm as well as discredit Christianity. This helps a lot. ❤

[@FriendlyEvangelist]

Is that MythVision you're talking about?

[@DYoung2112]

excellent presentation.thx for posting

[@hammiessandwich7447]

New in my faith I really appreciate these videos

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

Welcome, glad to help

[@TheNikolinho]

Superb video, brother!!

[@eternalgospels]

How would you view the similarities between the Gospels paralleling Plato's writings? Also, do you know the scholarship behind dating Plato's surviving texts?

[@strongbelieveroftheholybible]

The wrath of GOD is coming to the ungodly, idolaters and wicked people! Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon🙏🏼❤️🕊Repent, believe in the Gospel, Be Born Again.

[@benclark4823]

And yet all Jesus had to do was erase hell from existence 😒 such a “”loving”” god 🔥🥰🔥

[@benclark4823]

How does worship of supposed “”fake”” god’s wicked??? 🤨 is your god so petty as to burn people alive because they won’t kiss his @$$ 😘😇 if your “”all-powerful”” god was real AND wanted worship all he has to do is stop playing hide and seek 🤯

[@sergeemmanuelt.5398]

@@benclark4823 a loving God that gives choices if people do bad choices is he responsible?

[@strongbelieveroftheholybible]

@@benclark4823 without GOD we are nothing!

[@strongbelieveroftheholybible]

@TP The Free Thinker the devil is a liar

[@267backwardeel]

Great video, your video quality never disappoints.

[@The_Mosaic]

Plz do a video on Judaism's rejection of Jesus, and why jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, what should be done about this, how should they be convinced?

[@michaelhenry1763]

Jews will never be convinced en mass because Jesus does not fit into Judaism theologically. There is no original sin, no need for a savor to save you from your sins. Judaism believes in repentance and grace.

[@The_Mosaic]

@@michaelhenry1763 does that mean Christianity is a sham? A con? Coz if Moses was around he would not believe in Jesus. He probably would have executed Jesus himself.

[@michaelhenry1763]

@@The_Mosaic yes, Christianity is a sham. Moses would not have executed Jesus because the Jews did not execute Jesus, the Romans did. Moses was around before the monarchy. He would not have any thought of a messiah.

[@toluwalasearinola2908]

Jesus fulfilled almost all the old testament prophecies thousands of Jews are accepting Christ as the Messiah watch one for Israel channel or Messiah for Israel channel..the problem is Jews don't study the old testament by themselves they read rabbinic interpretation they have books and book that interprete the Bible and also the man made book like talmud which as put hatred to their mind...

[@michaelhenry1763]

@@toluwalasearinola2908 I cannot believe what you wrote about the tulmad and how Jews throughout the ages interpret the Tanakh. The New Testament is simply exegesis on Tanakh. The Christian interpretation is an attempt to reconcile the failed promises and execution of Jesus. They rip verses out of their context to create a new interpretation alien to their original authors. Leave Jews alone. You want to be Christian, fine, all power to you. Knock yourself out. But leave Jews alone.

[@Anders010]

People that think that Jesus was fake, a conspiracy or whatever need to realize this: creating good, compeling fiction that people truly care about is extremely difficult. Creating stories is hard and creating good stories is even harder. Also there is the aspect of th culture of the intended audience. If Jesus was made up he would be a sword weilding warrior, something catartic like the comic books were Batman or Cap punch Hitler in the face, and not a rabbi that preached about love and understanding.

[@davidstrelec2000]

Jesus mythicism is a conspiracy theory

[@benclark4823]

So……the book of revelation Jesus 🙄

[@benclark4823]

That’s literally the Jesus described by the book of revelation 🙄

[@davidogundipe808]

@@benclark4823 he is also described as a lamb.

[@joshua-l6m]

@@benclark4823 Revelation is the last book written, it's not an opening marketing campaign. Revelation is also deeply entrenched in symbolism and prophecy, it's not a linear story of human conquest. On top of that, it wouldn't be remotely cathartic to traditional Jewish readers since they had been waiting for a literal King David 2 that would slay the Romans with a human army. The only appeal and comfort Revelation provides is for believers

[@scottpayne7575]

The Adversary set many traps throughout the ages. The Plan was well known especially to the Fallen One. The Father of Lies immortalized the lies through story and myth and ancient tales.

[@benclark4823]

All the serpent 🐍 { not satan } did was question Eve, he said unto the woman, “yea has god said , ye shall not eat of every tree in the garden?” All he did was ask a question, never told her to EAT!. besides at the moment god placed the two trees, he was already putting curiosity in Adam and Eve, don't you think perhaps they wondered hmmm why can't we eat from this beautiful tree that IS PLEASANT TO THE EYE!!. But Eve is the one that lied, she states god told her, but that's untrue, it was the Lord God that told her!.( Remember two creations). And she goes on to say “neither shall ye touch it lest we die”. Then the serpent goes on to tell her the truth, you will not die, but God knows that in the day you eat there of your eyes shall be opened and be as God's, (not be God's). Genesis 3:22 says and the Lord God said behold is become as one of us to know good and evil!, Now isn't this what the serpent told everyone prior to her eating?. Then in verse 22 chapter 3 the words” IS” AND “AS” are used to throw people off about being or not being God's!. Preachers will fight this till the end, they will make up so many interpretations to keep you in their Churches for the money, oh and tithes yea that was abolished by Jesus, but they still ask for them!!. Good day 😇👉😈

[@scottpayne7575]

@@benclark4823 but they did die. Truly an honor to have a Lucifer apologist reply to my post. Garden of Eden was a test. A test that only one since has passed. You will not pass the test without some corrections.

[@yakovmatityahu]

I dont care nor do i need to care what Mythicists believe about Jesus or Christianity, my faith is not affected in any way by them or their claims...I will always stick to my faith, because i know its the most precious thing that i or anyone else can posess...

[@samwarner3534]

This was such a great video, thanks for everything you do! It answered a lot of current questions I've been having.

[@christiangadfly24]

I saw another parallel. Suetonius describes Augustus rising several times during the night and enjoying snacking on fruit. Einhard also describes Charlemagne as awakening several times during the night and snacking on fruit. I think Einhard is obviously seeing a connection between his beloved king and the great augustus, but that doesn't mean that Charlemagne didn't wake up several times in the night and eat fruit.

[@REDtoniX]

Outstanding work! 👏👏👏

[@Myrdden71]

The "so what?" argument is often powerful, as the other side hasn't even considered it. So what if you're right? Does that actually prove anything? Often they have not considered this question.

[@RohiNkwama]

This video has restocked my apologetics arsenal. Thanks IP

[@ref8632]

your work really is inspiring, thorough and insightful

[@wmarkfish]

Back 20 + years ago when I was into Joseph Campbell and Aldous Huxley I thought like a mythicist but unlike modern mythicists I imagined that ancient mystics were taping into some truth stream in their blind search for the Divine, albeit in a sort of sketchy way, and perhaps did bump into some deep truth theme. I began to say that the old myths were shadowy prophecies of the real God/man Jesus that was (is) a real historical figure. Its like what Paul said to the people of Athens, that they were a religious people and knew there must be a God because they could discern Him in nature. To me instead of proving Jesus was a myth it strengthens Christ's claims. But then the more I learned about these ancient myths B.C. I realized the stories had very little to do with the real resurrected deity.

[@michaelkelleypoetry]

"Now what Dyson and Tolkien showed me was this: that if I met the idea of sacrifice in a Pagan story I didn’t mind it at all: again, that if I met the idea of a god sacrificing himself to himself (cf. the quotation opposite the title page of Dymer) I liked it very much and was mysteriously moved by it: again, that the idea of the dying and reviving god (Balder, Adonis, Bacchus) similarly moved me provided I met it anywhere except in the Gospels. The reason was that in Pagan stories I was prepared to feel the myth as profound and suggestive of meanings beyond my grasp even tho’ I could not say in cold prose ‘what it meant’. "Now the story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened: and one must be content to accept it in the same way, remembering that it is God’s myth where the others are men’s myths: i.e. the Pagan stories are God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using such images as He found there, while Christianity is God expressing Himself through what we call ‘real things’." -C.S. Lewis, letter to Arthur Greeves, October 18, 1931. "The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens-at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences. We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle. I suspect that men have sometimes derived more spiritual sustenance from myths they did not believe than from the religion they professed. To be truly Christian we must both assent to the historical fact and also receive the myth (fact though it has become) with the same imaginative embrace which we accord to all myths. The one is hardly more necessary than the other. "A man who disbelieved the Christian story as fact but continually fed on it as myth would, perhaps, be more spiritually alive than one who assented and did not think much about it. ... "... Those who do not know that this great myth became Fact when the Virgin conceived are, indeed, to be pitied. But Christians also need to be reminded-we may thank Corineus for reminding us-that what became Fact was a Myth, that it carries with it into the world of Fact all the properties of a myth. God is more than a god, not less; Christ is more than Balder, not less. We must not be ashamed of the mythical radiance resting on our theology. We must not be nervous about ‘parallels’ and ‘Pagan Christs’: they ought to be there-it would be a stumbling block if they weren’t. We must not, in false spirituality, withhold our imaginative welcome. If God chooses to be mythopoeic-and is not the sky itself a myth-shall we refuse to be mythopathic? For this is the marriage of heaven and earth: Perfect Myth and Perfect Fact: claiming not only our love and our obedience, but also our wonder and delight, addressed to the savage, the child, and the poet in each one of us no less than to the moralist, the scholar, and the philosopher." -C.S. Lewis, 'Myth Became Fact', in 'God in the Dock'.

[@collegepennsylvania837]

“He was despised and rejected- a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins! But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed. All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. Unjustly condemned, he was led away. No one cared that he died without descendants, that his life was cut short in midstream. But he was struck down for the rebellion of my people. He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave. But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands. When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among the rebels. He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:3-12‬ ‭NLT‬‬ This was written around 700 years before Jesus came into the earth, yet it describes His life perfectly. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 God loves you so much and showed that by sending His Son to die for us so that we may inherit eternal life. We deserve hell but He gave us heaven through faith in Jesus. He took the punishment we deserved and by putting our faith in Him we can be saved. The Key To Eternal Life: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4vHp2CKqc6Aock For evidence for Christianity and answered questions, check out kzbin.info and kzbin.info because if Jesus really rose from the dead it is the most important fact ever!

[@michaelhenry1763]

Completely misreading the Hebrew Bible. The Isaiah chapter is referring to the Jewish exiles living in Babylon. It was written by Second Isaiah. The passage never mentions the word messiah nor ever mentions Jesus. Lastly, the gospel writers wrote stories to conform to this passage.

[@SamuelCrook]

All great people have myths attached to them......don't they? '

[@racsooj456]

Good points. There is evidence from within the gospels that those present drew connections and parallels from their prior knowledge to Jesus. Take for example when Jesus was compared to Elijah..some say you are Elijah..

[@prime_time_youtube]

Amazing, just amazing! Thank you!

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

Thank you

[@BibleLosophR]

I wish the example that Mike Licona gives of the similarities between one of the planes crashing in the Twin Towers on 9/11 with an earlier plane crash years earlier was included.

[@DarrenGedye]

@BibleLosophR I suspect there are so many examples of historical coincidences that it would be impossible to include them all. Personally I find the Wreck of the Titan more astounding than the twin towers. Also bear in mind that there conspiracy theorists around at the time of 9/11. On the other hand I've never heard of anyone trying to deny the titanic!

[@BibleLosophR]

@@DarrenGedye Good points.

[@NickSandt]

Great video, man! I’m currently reading The Life of Apollonius of Tyana by Philostratus because of the theory that the words of Jesus, and the apostles Paul & John were plagiarized by the Catholic Church based on the writings of Apollonius. It’s asserted that the Catholic Church burned books about Apollonius and tried to wipe his memory from history

[@vonroretz3307]

Burning his books doesn’t thus prove that he was right or they were wrong.

[@collinwayne8452]

Could you do a video on John 7:8? Some claim Jesus lied to His brothers

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iV7dgHeLiJxsqtU

[@collinwayne8452]

@@InspiringPhilosophy I don’t disagree with lying in some circumstances necessarily, however, the Bible says that God does not lie or change His mind, and that there was no deceit found in Jesus’s mouth. Some people try to attack Jesus’s divinity because of this verse.

[@albertchurchill4845]

@@collinwayne8452@ collinwayne8452 Why do the skeptics have a near-pathological need to disprove Christianity? Is it because it is the big kid? The top gun in town? I don't see the same with other faiths despite the same people claiming that all of it is harmful. I don't see industries being created around disproving Buddism or Islam. Only Christianity. Like false preachers, I see skeptics making money from their efforts to debunk it.

[@christophersnedeker]

My question is what do we say to someone who doubts the validity of all ancient accounts? I mean we mostly agree Alexander the great existed and he has a ton of stories associated with him we tend not to believe these days.

[@HeBrews-Coffee]

You should give them the reason why you don't doubt the validity of the ancient accounts? And if you don't actually have any reasons... Then maybe you should also doubt the validity of the ancient texts?

[@Mr_._Philosophy-x3f]

You know it's series when IP has the doctor strange portal around his title.

[@a.t.6322]

I think the gospel authors also incorporated pagan motifs like Asclepius and Dionysus because they would resonate with their intended audiences, the Greeks/Romans etc. Mimesis proved to be a highly effective tool for spreading their message to the Mediterranean world.

[@InspiringPhilosophy]

I don’t see any good evidence of that

[@a.t.6322]

@@InspiringPhilosophy there’s a huge body of literature on it. Two books I would recommend are “The Historical Jesus in Context” (edited by Levine, Allison and Crossan) -Princeton Press. And “Classical Greek Models of the Gospels and Acts Studies in Mimesis Criticism” edited by Edited by Bilby, Kochenash, & Froelich - Cal Tech.

[@spencerchartier2677]

I like how you pointed out that God is showing what he can do in reality with Peg and God can only do and stories, and usually the stories are a lot more complicated than the resurrection or requires some magic in reality. Jesus was able to come back in full glory, because he was the perfect sin, free son of God.

[@Yahushaislife]

I am starting to believe Jesus sacrificed himself for people….honestly beyond that we can all say we know for sure but we really don’t know anything

[@Curious_Mind7-7-7]

If he did sacrifice him self for people, where we find this concept of sacrifice is in the Bible, where we find his words. Jesus died for us bro He suffered what we deserve as sinners even though he was sinless. A sinless man should not die, it is unjust, so god brought him back. The word of god, being a part of god was separated in that death, hurting our lord, but paying the price that all sinners deserve. What we do know is if there’s a heaven( i hope there is ) its through christ bro.

[@Yahushaislife]

@@Curious_Mind7-7-7 I’m getting that as I read more and more of the Bible. I realized it doesn’t matter if Yahweh and him are the same or not, that book is about love. That was the only thing I was struggling with but reading made a lot more make sense

[@gregrobinette8620]

​@@Curious_Mind7-7-7 No. Heaven by good acts, not just belief in some Jewish preacher.

[@fluffysheap]

Excellent work. Comparing Jesus mythicism to moon landing denial is a nice touch.

[@PeterShieldsukcatstripey]

Could the Titan be predictive programming?

[@deeplight7206]

Premise A:- pagan myths say people eat food Premise B:- people eat food i just convinced ye all of "people eating food mythicism" didn't I?

[@hoid8069]

6:03 Now I'm wondering how many Jesus mythicists are also Moon landing deniers.

[@KingPingviini]

It is possible compination. Eric Dubay is Jesus mythicist and flat earther.

[@gregory_bloomfield]

Michael, you do such great work. Thank you, my brother.

Thanks a lot for the work

[@Mere_Christian]

He does his best.

[@400millionaire]

Actually, to the contrary of the question presented, false gods prove God is real, i.e... Jesus is real because the counterfeit arrives to deceive before the real thing arrives, so to try and steal away those slated to believe.

[@benclark4823]

Jesus lied multiple times in the Bible including that he would return in his apostles lifetime 🤥

[@ryankrakinski8926]

@Ben Clark no He didn’t.

[@Azamat421]

Yes he did

[@dixonnass2443]

I kind of just figured it was mystics from the past trying to process powerful interfacing they were receiving from the future and trying to interpret it. time is not constant and retrocausality is powerful

[@morlewen7218]

What is now the answer to the scenario of Jesus being a mythical figure or his resurrection being mythical event? What would be the consequences? How could the new testamant become its current form? Would Paul have been the only origin for Chrstianity or rather a group of people?

[@Bluesruse]

Paul says there's other apostles before him, and that there even are other apostles preaching a different Savior. Better question is, how does the New Testament come to be as it is with a historical man whose supposed to be so important yet none of our earliest sources seem at all interested in his actual life, yet later sources are very much interested; all of which are almost surely forgeries. Either way, something is off.

[@CountDain7]

Great content!

[@opticalraven1935]

Humans love patterns because it helps survive.

[@Michael_the_Drunkard]

The Trojan War is partly historical though

[@OMGanger]

Great vid! Small nit pick though, the title strawman’s your opposition since the answer is obviously no for any proof about something in the past

Great work, again!

[@mikejurney9102]

Do we have any historical evidence of one sect accusing a different sect of stealing their ideas and copying their religion? If that type of thing was going on as often as they say, then you'd think there would be some evidence of it in other religions.

[@holdingpattern245]

Gnosticism perhaps?

[@cmk5724]

This seems like a ground-breaking argument.

[@VVeremoose]

Have you seen The Infographics Show's breakdown of the history of Christian denominations? He makes such claims as zoarastrianism influenced late Jewish worship, and that early Jewish Christianity was "basically Islam without Mohammed" (forgive me if I got the quote a little wrong, but it's similar to that) Since they're a big channel, I wondered if you'd be interested in a response.

[@joshuadunford3171]

5:49 Just to clarify that Simpson short came out After Trump went down the excelsior. The Simpson episode Bart to the Future took place in 2010 and didn’t even show Donald Trump but rather President Lisa Simpson said “we inherited quite the budget crunch from President Trump”

[@holdingpattern245]

I saw a KZbin clip of Letterman from the late 1980s interviewing a bookie who specialized in taking bets on things like presidential elections, and Trump came up since he had campaigned to be the Democratic nominee in 1988, the bookie claimed that Trump was one of two people who were guaranteed to win the presidency if they ran, the other being Lee Iacocca.

[@mildlyamused456]

Just because you say you aren't special pleading doesn't mean you aren't special pleading. Try again friend.

[@jeusmarcomascarina4102]

now the history is the most important thing to maintain our knowledge. And find the truth. We are doomed if we don't know anymore.

[@crz2366]

Great video! The more time passes, the more I see mythicism as a joke. Here in Brazil we also have channels dedicated to arguing against Christianity, and even against the existence of Jesus (and based a lot on Richard Carrier, lol). But the more one notices the inconsistencies of their statements, how these channels filter only what they want to pass (only "similarities" for example), appealing to the fallacy of association (like the comparisons mentioned in the video), the less they are convincing. For the sake of denying God, Christianity and its historicity, including Jesus and his resurrection, they appeal to absurd and/or simplistic explanations. Such as collective hallucinations, Joseph of Arimathea moving Jesus' body elsewhere, a stolen body, comparisons with myths but making up or misinterpreting information (in a Zeitgeist style), Paul falling off "his horse" (a horse never mentioned in the bible) and having hallucinations, and much more.

[@allanlarmour7460]

I have an easier time believing in/on Jesus than I do believing man has travelled to and landed on the Moon. First time, no practice run and nobody died? Yet people died here on earth before a rocket got off the ground. Some lies are woven into the fabric of a society, I guess.

[@archam777]

Big difference between Christ and Osiris is........ Osiris was given life back into his body, but was never "resurrected"(given life fully) because isis could never find his missing "member", signifying he is not what he once was and had to remain in the underworld. He was more "undead", than living. Hence "god of the underworld".

[@gianpopo2007]

Thanks for spoiling the ending in the opening monologue!

[@Jesse-lo7nw]

Great video IP!

[@AdamBror]

Hey IP, I'm 17 and I was wondering if it's a sin to use contraceptives. I am just wondering, I am obviously going to wait for marriage.

[@JillRice]

Look up what the catolic church teaches on it sweety. Pray for help and guidance.

[@WhyWasntIBornInTheMiddleAges]

Yes it is.

[@AdamBror]

@@WhyWasntIBornInTheMiddleAges Are you catholic?

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Sorry I’m late but I’m also 17. And my answer is no but it depends on what the contraceptives are. There are many contraceptives are actually abortivefficients. But I would say no it’s not inherently wrong.

[@santhoshsubbiah1803]

In Matthew 13:57 , does Jesus claim to be a prophet. Someone pls help me to understand

[@kostpap3554]

Yes. Why is that a problem? He also claims to be the Son of David (ie the Messiah), and the Son of Man (ie Yahweh the Word). One is not exclusive of the other.

[@santhoshsubbiah1803]

@@kostpap3554 yes because he is from the lineage of David and he is Yahweh but he's certainly not a prophet ! As per Christian beliefs..

[@kostpap3554]

@@santhoshsubbiah1803 Which Christian beliefs? A prophet is nothing more, and nothing less, than a mouthpiece of God. Christ is by definition the mouthpiece of God, being the Word of God and God himself, thereby being a prophet par excellence. To which Christian belief is that opposing? The only belief I can think of and is for sure rejected, is that Christ is MERELY a prophet.

[@santhoshsubbiah1803]

@@kostpap3554 😌 we believe in front so Jesus is god too yeah?

[@kostpap3554]

@@santhoshsubbiah1803 Yes.

[@DarkBlade37]

One example of history paralleling earlier mythology is the story of pirates kidnapping Julius Caesar and the story of pirates kidnapping Dionysus.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

And the historians who wrote the accounts of Julius Caesar and the pirates hinted by their verbal tones that while he was held captive he was their willing homosexual boy toy! There had already assertions cast about Caesar's sexuality and sex position preferences while he has still alive!

[@BobSmith-lb9nc]

People misunderstand the purpose of myth. Read Hamlet's Mill by di Santillana & von Dechend to understand the nature of myth. Mircea Eliade would place it in the context of the "eternal return." Status as "myth" has nothing to do with the reality of an event. It is correct to see that myth and reality are not distinguishable. Moreover, history does not follow a path of least resistance (Occam's Razor). Instead, history is oscillatory and unpredictable. The Titan & Titanic example is powerful.

[@reasonablemind6830]

Very reasonable response to the common claim (that Jesus’ resurrection was a myth) made by many people (which includes even some who identify themselves as Christians).

[@johncoh7400]

Hello, Sir! I was wondering if you have ever read The Immortality Key by Brian C. Muraresku, and if so, do you think it has any merit to it? Thank you, if you see and respond!

[@baruchevenezra7279]

This is the best vid you have done so far mike, I actually had to clap at the end as if it was a good movie, but a classy kind if clap...lol

[@johnknight2012]

To many living and past miracles related to Jesus.

[@angusg3605]

Jesus is Lord

[@pattyb6003]

It is interesting that some of Christ's characteristics are seen as "plagiarising" other gods, but not others. Why is a "rising God" plagiarism, but not a God who can heal, or gives commands, is a creator, or rules over the afterlife, or is all seeing... There are certain things we, all people, seem to expect of God because that's what makes God, God.

[@michaelhenry1763]

Don’t worry, those characteristics were copied too.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

Your comparison of the deaths and burials of Hector, Pompey and Jesus forgot one person: Julius Caesar. Caesar was stabbed to death in the Senate and at his funeral his wax image was nailed to and displayed on a plain cross called a tropaeum! This can be clearly seen in Francesco Carotta's treatment of the historical accounts in his tome, _Was Jesus Caesar?_ and can be viewed in the KZbin video, _The Gospel of Caesar._ This display was made a tradition by the subsequent Imperial Cult as was recorded by Justin Martyr at the end of his _1 Apology_ 55.

[@davidmathews9633]

Jesus said... And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

[@DH-rs6cq]

I've had a bit of a theory that since God made us in His image we have always known something bigger was there to create it all, our universe and how it works. That's pretty well agreed. By the time of Jesus compared to now only about 2% of people ever had lived by 33AD. During that 2% era people slowly evolved their beliefs across the world, and God was waiting for the point at which we were finally ready to truly become monotheistic and have experiences with Him and spread the word quickly. No coincidence that immediately after Jesus we get a population boom, a wildfire spread of Christianity, later the first printing press book, and the largest religion ever. We know from Paul that the unreached have a chance for glory, so He let us naturally arrive at a place of accepting through religious evolution rather than suppress our minds for 100k years and just pop up and release the hold on the minds that a God could exist.

[@CNormanHocker]

Dr. William Lane Craig's statements about the OT being akin to myth and folklore. I don't take the Bible as akin to The Iliad and the Odyssey. Some similarities, but not the same.

[@Feuerbringer-Magazin]

Jesus was a historical person, but I don't see sufficient reason to believe that he was the son of god and rose from the dead. Jesus preached that the end times were near, he was a failed apocalyptic Jewish preacher. The son of god should have known that the end times were nowhere near. Also I find it more that suspect that many miracles in the past are supposed to be evidence for Christianity, yet there are simply no miracles anymore today. Why would that be? Also it seems wildly implausible that the creator of the universe would choose this means of convincing people of himself and his message, to send a Jewish preacher with wrong prophecies about an impending end time to a remote place and have him killed. What? Why not just appear before all of our eyes and reveal your existence and your message to us clearly?

[@j.vanbreugel2378]

A lot of Christians believe that the prophecies were related to the construction of the Temple. Somehow the church changed it into being about the end times. That does not make the prophecy false. Also, miracles still happen every day. People are being healed in Jesus name all the time. We might not always understand how God shows Himself to us, but that does not make it unwise. Also, He is always willing to still show Himself today when we ask Him to reveal Himself. It is not one or the other. It is both. He showed Himself then and He still does today. Bless you 🤍

[@echoecho3155]

My only problem with this argument is that it assumes pagan gods are wholly mythical. While I'm not entirely on board with paganism or neopaganism, it seems that pagan gods were active historically - if we take some accounts at face value - and even contemporaneously. I know plenty of people whose experiences with various non-Christian deities are as intense and "real" as Christian ones. Now, I know the common response other than denial is simply to scream "demon", but demons and pagan gods seem to operate very, very differently. While there are some gods one could construe as demonic - some of the Aztec Pantheon or Molech - it's hard to look at the virtue demanded by Jupiter or the wisdom of the Havamal and claim that it comes from a demonic source. You could say that their rather unsavory behavior in some myths is evidence of a demonic nature, but most of them behave no different than humans. It seems to me that the supernatural world may simply be more populated than just God, angels, human souls, demons, and the devil. This doesn't mean polytheism is true - "God" big "G" is very different than a "god" little "g," which is basically a category of spirit rather than a being unto itself.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

Check out Michael Heiser.

[@305thief8]

You should definitely do more Jesus Mythicist content like if Jesus existed or not that’s an easy video etc