Do Foil MTG Cards Cause Cheating?

[@tempestofthought]

Banning foils in official tournaments is actually a pretty effective way to 1) Avoid the issue of curled foils giving players additional information, 2) make it so if WOTC wants there to be an effective reprint of something they have to print it in nonfoil, and 3) likely drive down the price of foil cards for more casual players.

[@lracseroom8286]

I may be wronng but aren't ALL SL available in nonfoil? I only have ever bought 1 annd it was non foil.

[@tempestofthought]

@@lracseroom8286 Unfortunately no, some secret lairs have only been available in foil.

[@Pistolsatsean]

@@lracseroom8286 Imagine thinking Wotc would make magic product consistent and sensible 🤣

[@федяконовальцев]

Or... Make higher quality cards...

[@mattharrison8205]

Maybe if they actually made their foils properly, they wouldn't hard curl. The new transformer foils don't even have an actual rare indicator stamped on them, the entire foil front and back of the card is just more or less a sticker they put onto the cardboard.

[@darbyburbidge8976]

My issue with this is that WOTC prints cards that are "tournament legal" but almost universally aren't because of warping, but they can't just come out and say it because then people won't buy them as much. What we end up with is tournament goers are required to know this information that is intentionally unclear (on WOTCs part). Sure people who play and go to tournaments regularly are aware of this, but a new player coming in and seeing Secret Lairs are going to think these are legal cards (when 'common' knowledge in the community is that they can get you banned). Considering WOTC keeps talking up accessibility for newer players, it really doesn't seem like they mean it.

[@hoila4718]

I agree 101%

[@austinnowak5414]

WotC can't come out and say that Secret Lair foils are not allowed at tournaments because that could cause a lawsuit since Secret Lairs are advertised as being tournament legal

[@MrMeszaros]

@@austinnowak5414 Well then in that case, it wasn't cheating - the player did not modify the cards, their warping wasn't on him. The situation is bollocks.

[@austinnowak5414]

@@MrMeszaros if only important cards are foil then it does look bad on the player

[@ZombieOfun]

It's also just conceptually incredibly stupid. Imagine getting banned from a tournament for playing with cards you bought directly from the company that owns your game

[@padfoot2116]

It sure seems wrong that premium cards are almost unplayable in tournaments. Even if wotc ignores the secondary market, secret lairs cards should be legal. Really hope they just work on quality on foils.

[@muddlewait8844]

I feel like Wizards needs to allow proxies for foil cards in tournaments if they’re going to sell them and claim they’re tournament legal cards

[@jasonsavory9748]

@@muddlewait8844 just allow proxies for all cards at all events, decouple the card game from the collectibles

[@J_Dubb1]

Yes, it is nefarious business practice to print cards that can not be used in tournament play right out of the pack, ESPECIALLY when they are the more expensive "luxury" versions of the card. Its infuriating. FIX YOUR DAMN CARD STOCK WOTC

[@bestmonkna7720]

@@vulcanh254 like in the video, say it's been a few turns and only select cards are foil, that can influence a decision (like an upkeep coco to avoid drawing a target).

[@HeyApples]

The last 2 prints of CoCo were only available in foil. If you wanted to use nonfoils, the last opportunity to get them was DTK in 2015.... 7 years ago. A few shady characters have poisoned the well water about this discussion when the onus should be on the company producing the product in the first place. Some of these junk foils and shoddy cardstock aren't even fit for commander and casual play.

[@islandultra]

i mean yeah idt that's a controversial take to say wotc needs to produce better foils, but foils shouldnt even be allowed in official tournaments.

[@aidanchutkan8662]

It is 100% on him. The DTK nonfoil versions of CoCo cost about the same as the SL version, it's not like they're prohibitively expensive. He admitted to knowing beforehand that it could be a problem and yet didn't ask a judge if they were okay, therefore he knowingly used cards he could have gained an advantage from and needed to be DQ'd.

[@rushxanthemtcg5607]

Non foil Collected company is like $10 on tcgplayer. There's no issue here.

[@Those_Weirdos]

@@aidanchutkan8662 It's definitely a shame that this cheater is getting press for cheating and getting caught, instead of it being a more expensive card with only special reprintings and so on, a cleaner case for "WOTC needs to get its shit together" than this one. Because WOTC needs to ensure people can actually play the fancy versions of the cards they treasure and value.

[@stratuvarious8547]

It's clearly WotC's fault, too. They print the cards and don't do enough to prevent the foils from curling.

[@azizsinger5142]

The default penalty for Marked Cards is a Warning. If there appears to be a discernible pattern (even if it's not a perfect pattern), and the judge believes noticing the pattern would give the player an advantage, it's a Game Loss. If the cards being Marked appears to be intentional, then it's a Disqualification.

[@davidbaker9412]

I really don't see how this is not falling under some consumer protection laws. I can't see any analogy were you can buy a product and be punished for using it as intended.

[@davidbaker9412]

I def see the cheat here, creatures all bent ... Collected company

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

Especially given these are Secret Lairs so single cards that could and should by rights be replaced if they are not fit for use.

[@christopherhogan3953]

Amazing how I have foils from invasion that have never seen the inside of a sleeve just as straight as the day they came out of the pack yet modern foils curl in an hour of being exposed to slightly moist air

[@Si0nbarzahd]

More like Pringled before even being opened, I bought the brothers war commander precons, both foil commanders in both decks looked like Pringles as soon as I opened the plastic wrap.

[@J_Dubb1]

Yes, it made me mad when he said that old foils curl also. I have MANY MANY old foils that have never curled at all and are straight as can be. Where as new foils are curled out the pack. Its crap and needs to be addressed.

[@jadegrace1312]

@@J_Dubb1 Yeah. When people talking about old foils, they don't mean Lorwyn, they mean Scourge, Torment, Judgement, etc.

[@pntbller14]

Do foil cards cause cheating? here are some better questions: 1. How is it that I have foils that are well over a decade old from other games that are still flat while I can buy a pack of brothers war and ALL the cards are fucking pringles depite being “fresh from the press” and costing multiple times more? 2. Should pro players be suing WOTC/Mattel for printing cards that are made so shittily that they curl before arrival despite every product from the foil secret lair drops to the foil 40k commander decks having the word “premium” slapped on it like we’re supposed to believe anyone in WOTC/Mattel’s marketing even knows what that word means

[@gaebril131]

Hasbro, not Mattel

[@ThomasJames69420]

Idk if he was cheating but it's a sad state of affairs that the most expensive cards are literally unplayable due to known manufacturing defects.

[@ghostsword6554]

I respect you for the fix ^^ I have seen the video yesterday, and am now watching it again ^^

[@houndoom73]

Same

[@CeilingNinja]

I had a commander deck with a warped foil. I play over webcam so I don't have an opponent cutting my deck. I did a little test, and shuffled through my deck a good twenty times or so, each time I was able to hit that card and flip over my cut at exactly that point.

[@iSupportDaThing]

Full foil, fixed.

[@malakimphoros2164]

@@iSupportDaThing curling is inconsintent between prints

[@cfrydlewicz]

So much of the competitive Magic scene is shitty. Even before WotC got rid of the Judges program and slashed all support for competitive play when Arena came out, the top tables were full of the biggest dickheads in the room squeezing wins out of minor technical misplays or cheating in grey area ways. This kind of shit makes me not want to bother even more. Several friends of mine who judge big events regularly comment all the time about how it's hard for them to even keep track of what a real Magic card looks like anymore with all the Secret Lair and alt-art treatments going around. Once I stopped signing up for main events at GPs and MagicFests and just went to play side events, trade, hang out with friends, shop at vendors, and meet artists, the game became way more fun. Competitive main events should still exist so those annoying uber-spike players can go over to that other side of the convention hall while I can enjoy playing with reasonable people on my side. 😛

[@colbybastian17]

The etched foils and foils from the Bro set boosters are honestly fantastic. Perfectly flat. They need to use these as the base foil style.

[@HondaWagovan]

It's not a marked card if it's an official product and it's a manufacturer issue that makes them curl. If it's a issue that they are curled by design from WOTC themselves they should replace it with a proxy and leave it at that.

[@chrisbenson6753]

Most of my foils from pre-Ravnica city of guilds are not even slightly curled. My strixxhaven foils might as well be Pringles

[@TheArcv2]

Foils not being viable for competitive play may not be new for magic but it’s a bit of an anomaly as most TCG have cards that only come in foil and don’t warp as bad as mtg foils

[@HitomiNee]

case in point, most JP TCGs dont warp as much and those cards are so shinny, its mindbogglingly blinding.

[@zehmyan]

My solution to this problem is to play with so many foils in all my double sleeved decks, good luck deciphering any information from the deck's appearance at all. If every other card is "marked" no cards are "marked"

[@davidelrod7865]

It really sounds like the only real reason to upkeep a CoCo is if you know the top card of your deck is a creature you're looking to hit (not "down 2" because then you'd just draw and still play CoCo for the creature that's now just "down 1"), or in response to something you're opponent is doing.

[@enderak1780]

Yep, on rare occasions I will play Coco on upkeep if I had put something on top with Flamekin Harbinger, for instance. I could see a scenario where you are desperate to top deck a bolt and have a creature in your deck that may affect your draw (like a creature that scrys on ETB) but that scenario seems tenuous at best.

[@davidelrod7865]

@@enderak1780 right, there's definitely a ton of cards like Brainstorm, Mirri's Guile, SDT (you know, not the ones legal in Modern) where you'd legitimately know the top card. This sounds like they illegitimately knew... Incidentally, end stepping a Congregation at Dawn in a CoCo deck seems strong (but you still wouldn't upkeep the CoCo, because you'd just draw the Mana dork and then have the next 2 cards be the 3 drops...).

[@diegopicchetto5250]

I understand that Tournament Rules specify you can issue proxies as headjudge for foil cards "for whitch there is no non-foil version available"; however I've always thought that to be unecesarilly restrictive. Just issue them a proxy and let then play. They do own a ""legal"" copy of the card.

[@daniellmarsden1797]

I agree that an upkeep CoCo is very suspicious. The only reason I can think of for it is that he thought he knew what was on top of his deck and wanted to hit it with CoCo rather than draw it.

[@damien4197]

2:44 - It's 100% on wizards for printing a defective product. Especially if between a combination of foil only lairs, buying/trading for pretty casual deck they've ended up with the number they need for a new competitive deck they're running, they shouldn't be expected to procure non foils (assuming not the ONLY foils, of course... though, again, that shouldn't be on the player to have to mitigate the problem!)

[@garryhewitt1053]

I had an entire commander 40K foil deck that was curled out of the box….but this slightly different scenario I guess

[@ClubbingSealCub]

I was like 'oh cool new pk video' then I went 'wait a minute, I've already heard this bit' good on you mate

[@Kaisingsens]

funny enough I had a similar situation with a completely different ending this weekend. i was playing in Sofia at the RC Europe with my phoenix deck. basically every card that has an alternate artwork/extended border etc available is in my deck (non foil) the only "fancry' printings of Aether Gust(secret lair) and Disdainful Stroke (FNM Promo) are foil. so I asked the judge before round 1 and they told me Stroke is fine and my Gusts aren't so I swapped them and had no more issues.

[@ArixOdragc]

It is absolutely on WotC for selling a product that is unsuitable for its intended purpose.

[@empurress77]

So: Only your opponent gets to cut your deck. That being said, i did catch a player cheating by placing all of their lands near the top of their sleeves. The upshot of that is they can see where their land is when they are deciding whether to keep a draw or mulligan. I can see using all foil lands in the same way.

[@Narcomoeba1]

One of the reasons why I don't use foils in my deck. Since I use tons of Guru lands, and beta duals, my mana base alone will be non-foil, if I foil the other non-lands then, due to how the foils tend to curve, if I can differentiate by looking at the deck and can tell which ones are lands and non-lands that feels like marking it. in a high REL setting, wouldnt want to risk it. This can also apply to people who's only foils in the deck are their win-cons / combo pieces, and the rest not foiled.

[@diagnosisninja]

I got a game loss once for shuffling wrong. Got distracted late in the day and pushed half my deck in upside down, and a judge reckoned that I was doing it to find Courser of Kruphix. Like, 2/4's don't win games.

[@ozzfan46]

I feel like there's got to be more to this story. Was a certain type of card they only ones upside down? Or maybe all your sideboard cards or something?

[@diagnosisninja]

@@ozzfan46 a lot of enchantments in a constellation deck, in game 2. Not enough that it was all copies, but enough to be "consistent". I was never bothered about keeping cards the right way around, so mash shuffling a bunch without care for sleeves and order in deck eventually caught up to me.

[@ozzfan46]

@@diagnosisninja that's actually why I've moved to art sleeves. Easy to tell when I box shuffle myself and then fix it without changing the order of the deck

[@ManaDrain315]

2/4's that give card advantage absolutely can win games.

[@shryque]

My buddies that play a lot of tournaments mentioned the issue with having specific cards as foil in a deck, so I honestly just ponied up and completely foiled out my Mono-G Tron deck. If I loose a match at least I'll loose in style. Also when I double-sleeve my foils in perfect fits and Dragonshields, which do very good at preventing warping.

[@fatedcypress9222]

I have a pimped out legacy lands deck. Everything that can be foiled, is foiled. I use packets to keep my cards from curling (among other techniques) to great success. I went to SCGCON Philly and played legacy in a big tournament for the first time in ages last year. I went to the judges well before the tournament and had them test to see if there would be any issues. I went again the following morning to do the same thing. Everything went well and I had a fantastic time. All that being said: please don’t suggest banning foils from tournaments. I would literally quit the game at that point. I’ve been collecting for this deck for well over a decade and I would lose part of myself if that happened.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

Your complaints should be directed at blizzard for selling a defective product. If foils allow cheating, they got to go. So be mad at the people making shitty foils

[@Johnnyzilla95]

@@Michael-bn1oi god damn blizzard at it again! 🤣🤣

[@fatedcypress9222]

@@Michael-bn1oi While I agree that wotc needs to make better quality foils, I respectfully disagree that banning foils is the way to go. I know for a fact that with proper care, you can play foils and not gain an advantage. If a player wants to play with foils and doesn’t make the effort to ensure they’re ready to play, then they deserve their DQ.

[@WaffleTrain]

The player wasn't DQ'd for having foils - he was DQ'd for having marked cards in his deck. The foil story is just him trying to get ahead of it and spin his own narrative. Supposedly specific cards were in foil and the corners of the sleeves were bent to help him identify certain cards in the deck.

[@joebaumgart1146]

Foils do normally curl on their own.

[@CoheedLeonard]

I’m still not sure this dude cheated. I’ve made dumb mistake and plays that don’t make sense before in higher level tournament because I get stressed or pressured. It happen. Quite frankly though, if you pull an official mtg card from a pack or even more so, BUY A CARD DIRECTLY FROM THE COMPANY MAKING THE GAME, you should be able to play that fucking card. Foil and warped or not. These are official from wizards and it’s wizards job to fix it, not just let the community eat shit for it. This is just another reason to through on for wizards seemingly dying competitive scene. The game is already gotten too expensive and still rising and price. My local competitive scene has a fraction of what it used to be due to being over wizards not actually caring about the community. A lot of us switched to commander and now that’s getting over priced and people are starting to switch off if that and are moving to trying other card games like flesh and blood. It might still be a long time coming, but from what I see in my local community, Wizards are slowly digging their own grave.

[@gregoryrehling2988]

I had to play the last two games of the final round of the local PTQ for PT Charleston under the watchful eye of a judge because the only foils in my deck were copies of Battlefield Forge. I was young and naive. I hadn't even thought about the potential for advantage.

[@ChargingbadgerMTG]

I often play my decks from their boxes and it made me think that perhaps having a box that can hide the card edges to some degree could maybe get round it as well?

[@helioscomis3732]

hiding the deck presents more opportunities to cheat

[@timw9745]

Most original foil old bordered cards didnt and still don’t curl. Clouding was a problem, not so much curling. Curling really is a ‘modern frame’ problem, especially last couple of years. I have tons of old foils that didnt curl a bit during 20+ years.

[@W1DO]

They should ban mixed foil/non foil decks from competative 60 card play, or make flat foils. I would have been too lazy to re-upload & would have understood if you were too.. that's why you are a professional youtuber and I make videos about stuff I like when I want :)

[@bwahchannel9746]

I thought it was established long ago that curled foils are considered marked cards if they're curled to a certain degree?

[@vinni522]

I’ve casted Coco on my upkeep just a couple of times. Dead next turn, had to go for combo - Coco upkeep to determine if I should sac fetch land to shuffle back useful cards (eg if Coco review two other Cocos). But yeah it’s such a narrow situation… it’s super sus.

[@christopheraaron1255]

Urza block was the first one with foils, specifically Urza's Legacy.

[@kingfuzzy2]

I thought it was 7th edition?

[@timw9745]

It was actually Urza’s Saga, the promo’s were the first foils released to the large public.

[@PostprandialTorpor]

WOTC, Lessen the deluge of products and increase print, inking and card stock quality.

[@markkarlo4869]

I have always stayed away from foil if I'm building a deck for competition since I cannot afford everything to be foil cards. I don't like being questioned by anyone when playing at an event, it makes me tilt...

[@gearsocfenix]

Once had to use a sharpie on white border cards at a tournament back in the late 90's!

[@nielsmandemakers720]

Thank God wizards is finally printing official proxies....

[@alexbrangan2885]

I've actually had curled foils give me a DISadvantage many many times, where cards that I absolutely did NOT want cut to the top or bottom ended up there consistently... It's one of the reasons I don't engage with paper TCGs anymore. (The other being money, of course.)

[@themonadnomad]

I'm not a foil player myself, but if you double sleeve with Perfect Hard inners, does that prevent curling?

[@WiLDRAGE777]

I don't like foils. I don't use them unless I have absolutely no other copies of that card and it's either prohibitive to buy another or I only use it for casual commander games. Now, I don't do competitive paper Magic, but if I did, I would not even entertain the thought of playing any number of foils in my decks. It opens you to these accusations (which in this case I think are true). Plus if you aspire to be a serious about competitive Magic, you should just know better. I don't buy Secret Lairs as a rule, but the one I did buy, Street Fighter, I made sure to get in non-foil because I had no interest in these cards being essentially unusable.

[@shredmasta23]

Playing Heliod Company with zero foils, I have Upkeep CoCo'd more than once, it is a combo deck however so the thought processes and decisions of the decks are very different.

[@KirbyEatsYu]

why though? what is the possible upside of casting coco before your draw instead of after. unless you have information about the top 7 cards of your deck (which you dont) there is literally no reason to do it.

[@Akagami_98]

@@KirbyEatsYu I would always Coco before draw 🤷‍♀️

[@KirbyEatsYu]

@@Akagami_98 i guess some people are just unashamedly bad at magic 🤷‍♀

[@shredmasta23]

@@KirbyEatsYu if you are dead on board and don't have 6 mana you coco before draw to have the best chance at hitting spike feeder + Heliod. If either one is your draw for turn and you don't coco you just lose. There are times where a line of play look inherently bad but is the best option at the time.

[@KirbyEatsYu]

@@shredmasta23 But the odds are actually the same if you do it after your draw. if you draw anything that ISNT heliod+feeder your odds of hitting them in the coco go up and it works out to the same odds as doing it in your upkeep

[@greglane334]

My collection is so old I don't really have foils. Remember the days when there were no foils and rare was the highest rarity? The tournament should have supplied him with a tournament-sanctioned proxy to use, it would cost them nothing and make it fair for everyone, since these are apparently legal cards.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

So pre-Urza's saga? You realize that was 24 years ago, and there were just 4 years of rarity only. Strange thing to be caught up on.

[@Violetawa]

The thing here is that the player just presented the deck at the beginning of every round until it was noticed. If at the start of the event they went to the judges to solve it, it'd be fine with a basic land with a CoCo written in it, but this was not the case. Having played with the curled cards makes it possible to gain an advante

[@thomas-bx8wm]

foils have always been a tournament issue and it is on the players to check, but at the same time players should be able to trust the product they are buying is fit for purpose. One of the selling points for SL is the abilty to personalise your deck and make it your own and to "bling it out" and this is making the foils in games more of an issue than it was in the past. They know the SL foils they are selling are for playing with and you cant play with them. Just because there isnt judges at casual levels doesnt mean all the same problems with using foils doent exist everywhere else. A player shouldnt have to buy 2 copies of the deck just incase its not legal because of foils

[@tariik.h]

If you keep foils in a humidity controlled environment they don't curl. Use a sealed container and a humidity control pack. Don't know the exact humidity level but you can probably google that.

[@Kay13Jay]

Why is no one talking about the misaligned borders on the backs of cards being used to cheat?

[@MewtwoStruckBack]

I don't play Magic but I did play competitive Yu-Gi-Oh, and I'm convinced the whole reason players would go out of their way to get certain non-foil cards in their new, very pronounced foil versions, was for this reason. Back in the late 2000s there was a two card combo that, if pulled off, could brick your opponent's hand at that moment and potentially their draw for the next 3 turns - even if it didn't hit, you got full knowledge of their hand plus all draws for that period of time (the combo being Sangan + Crush Card Virus; Sangan was almost an automatic include in all decks, with 1000 ATK, and Crush Card Virus required a tribute of 1000 ATK or less.) Sangan got a foil reprint between the time Crush Card Virus came out and when it eventually got banned. I'd say part of its secondary market value stemmed from the fact you could play that version specifically to be able to get it into your hand easier and have plausible deniability that you were just playing the most blinged out version of your deck you could.

[@Izamathanos]

I still don't get why foils are desired. I pretty much sell any I open immediately. They are the same bloody cards except they are shit quality. Why pay more for a worse product?

[@cocoquake]

I feel the exact same way. Foils just bring more problems than what they are worth. They are more expensive, it ruins the card quality and now they're not tournament legal? Just play proxies seriously

[@reddeadcompilation2954]

Very true…I think the foil effect actually distracts from the artwork as well. Never liked foils.

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

Me too! Aesthetically I think they look awful. If I could opt to buy packs without foils, I totally would.

[@Takovacs]

Judge stuff: For it to be cheating, (1) something has to be wrong, (2) the player needs to know it's wrong, and (3) it has to be done to gain an advantage. Mclure admitted they knew they were an issue, and advantage... well, until that upkeep company, I was on the side of correct DQ, can't be sure about advantage, but it's enough. However, the upkeep company tells me they knew there was information, and they used it, which is definitely a cheat. Foils... I'm not torn on this. If you can afford to have Secret Lair foils, you can afford to have non-foils. Competitive magic has always had issues with them, this isn't a new thing. I do admit there are more people playing paper magic for the first time (thanks pandemic!) and that makes this more troublesome, but this example should be seen as a warning for everyone. I don't believe foils should be used in competitive play, or if they are, they should be a minimum of a 40/60 split, across all cards in the deck. 50% of your deck is warped, it's all warped, effectively, and no advantage can be gained. 100% not required, tbh, but the closer you are to complete, the worse each individual card that doesn't fit the norm is.

[@MrMartinSchou]

While I agree, it is MASSIVELY problematic that Wizards release cards that are ostensibly tournament legal but also allows you to cheat in tournaments straight out of the pack. What happens, for example, if you're playing in a draft environment and your "bomb" card is the only foil you've drafted, AND it turns out to be warped enough that it can be identified in the deck? You're not allowed to use a proxy card, and you're not allowed to use the card you drafted. The fact that organizers even NEED to consider such moronic edge cases is a huge problem.

[@Takovacs]

@@MrMartinSchou In limited, if a card is warped form a pack, that can be proxied.

[@Takovacs]

@@MrMartinSchou The specific rules: MTR 3.4 A proxy card is used during competition to represent an otherwise legal Magic card or checklist card that can no longer be included in a deck without the deck being marked. For a proxy to be issued, the card it is replacing must meet at least one of the following criteria: The card has been accidentally damaged or excessively worn in the current tournament, including damaged or misprinted Limited product. Proxies are not allowed as substitutes for cards that their owner has damaged intentionally or through negligence. The card is a foil card for which no non-foil printing exists.

[@oneinfinity]

I might be one of the lucky few, but I never in my life had a foil curl on me. The only curled ones I ever got were ones that were already that way when I bought them, and a few I left in a damp basement without sleeves for a few weeks. Otherwise I keep my cards under normal conditions double sleeved inside deck boxes and folders and never had any issue with that.

[@maxmacdeath]

Curling foils are a production issue. It happens because those cards are made from two components made from different materials, the cardboard and the foil, with different thermal expansion coefficients. It doesn't happen because the cards are kept in suboptimal conditions, it happens because of physics. They come curled right out of the pack and they are going to stay curled. The degree to wich the foils curl varies from set to set because wotc does changes production methods between sets but if curling is an issue for foils in a set, its gonna be an issue for every single foil from that set. For some sets, like brothers war and unfinity there is almost no curling, and for others, every single foil is like a god damn pringle like with the wh40k collectors edition decks.

[@SplinteredLimb]

I was in the middle of the video as it got taken down, was confused until I saw the context this morning. Excellent job respecting pronouns friend!

[@kalierdarkekd]

Always as a reminder, putting a 62% humidity pack in a container with your foils overnight will straighten them out without damaging the card. I used that with one of the chibi-planeswalker Secret lairs and it worked wonderfully (because holy hell those were severely warped)

[@subzero308]

im not a big fan of foils but when i did have a foil deck thats how i did it... i would never put just a couple foils if i was making a deck and wanted to use foils the whole deck had to be foil of i wouldn't use it... i also have a bit of OCD as well lol but yeah its all or nothing for me when it comes to foils.

[@vancejohnson5807]

We need a new episode of dies to removal now more than ever.

[@LaserfaceJones]

WotC will just start pushing deck holders that squish cards down instead of fixing the issue, it gives them something else to sell

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

Quick! Get Josh and Jimmy to push a new Ultra Pro product on TCZ!

[@artistpoet5253]

I don't play outside of kitchen table anymore. Most times I play against Deep IQ or one of the Challenge Decks. When I was touring local tournaments I'd catch opponents attempting all kinds of shenanigans with their libraries from crimping lands and turning preferred cards to flat out forced shuffling. This is more a case of an exploit than cheat. It's not much different than when players discover a strange interaction that causes infinite mana or damage or 1/1 creature tokens with haste. Getting banned for breaking the game? Sounds like the Emperor needs new clothes.

[@jean-pierrejoubert2438]

Do you think magic is going to serve players online and collectors/investors in paper?

[@Higley1234]

How about using KMC hard inner sleeves? I've never had a problem with foils

[@TiltedSquare]

I wonder if other tcgs have the same issue. I knew that foils warped, but people using that to cheat never occurred to me, but I always played super casually and haven't played since pre-covid. It also sounds like wotc is providing resources for people to cheat due to the nature of how badly the foils curl even right out of the packaging

[@helioscomis3732]

its pretty common in yugioh and pokemon, they're just smaller games and not mtg so if you exclusively consume mtg content you'll never see it.

[@Zakading]

Yu-Gi-Oh has it to a pretty negligible degree, Force of Will (RIP you beautiful game) had such high quality and stiff cardstock that the cards were almost like plastic, Pokemon cards are between MTG and YGO in curlyness. The really shittery about MTG's cards is that the foil curling got worse tenfold since around Oath of the Gatewach.

[@chrismaxwell3001]

Buckle up for a easy going scenic educational ride 😉 Lesson in competitive play, dont foil out your competitive decks. Sad times.

[@ck3763]

I can see a scenario where the upkeep Coco makes sense though I dont know if thats the situation they were in. if you have a skyclave apparition with something under it and have cast 2 spells this turn and your opponent has a moonrage brute on the battlefield doing a coco in upkeep when night has turn to day and moonrage brute is back to being a brutal cathar means you can hit your own skyclave or brutal cathar with your opponents brutal cathar abillity on the stack, brutal cathar has new templating so removing it before the abillity resolves means the abillity did nothing so your skyclave with potentially a 4 mana card under it never leaves the field. now you could have done this in the end step but you'd lose 3 life thanks to brutal cathars ward abillity.

[@islandultra]

not really about the upkeep coco, its more about the fact they got these warped foils and making that decisions means they likely had some intuition about the next few cards (due to his foils being warped)

[@ck3763]

@@islandultra yes of course but the warping of the cards doesn't mean that activating the coco in the upkeep isn't the correct thing to do regardless of cheating or not

[@islandultra]

@@ck3763 in a vacuum no, but it begs to question why you ignore the totality of the circumstance, he had already asked if some of the cards were too damaged, so he knew to some extent he may get called out for it.

[@void-hippie]

mad respect for the reupload, watching again to appease the algorithm

[@HarmonicResonanceScale]

if official products enable cheating, then the blame is at least partly on the official product.

[@metleon]

Some warping is going to happen, but it's definitely possible to make foil cards that stay almost completely flat. My 20yo Card Destruction from Yu-Gi-Oh is still basically completely flat, despite spending most of its life unsleeved in an unsealed deck box. Now Yu-Gi-Oh foils usually only cover the artwork, which probably helps, but an over 15yo full foil Pokemon card I just pulled out still isn't bent much. And that's been kept in an old wooden box for at least the past 10 years.

[@richardsmith9615]

Are there any sleeves that straighten out warped cards? You'd have thought there would at least be some hard inner sleeves or something to help.

[@sunnaum]

the one time you company on upkeep is when opponent put a creature on top of your deck and you know your company will hit. That's what he did, except his oppo didn't put the creature there, he just had the info

[@bobfranklin2572]

They seem to not have intentionally tried to gain a specific advantage premeditatedly

[@MrMeszaros]

Okay, but if they knew, why not at opponents end step? was the library shuffled inbetween? I don't think they were cheating. Maybe if the tournament had a Public announcement that one cannot use foils or something like that.

[@isambo400]

Upkeep was the soonest he could do it. His lands were tapped in the end step

[@vwkflynn]

Finally. A better way to pay to win.

[@jasonsavory9748]

The play test proxy is one step away from just allowing proxies (approved quality I guess) instead of having to own the card, why not just have proxies available at events to rent / purchase? Submit your deck list prior to the event and pick up your ‘cards’ on the day.

[@CocoMura]

Foils are essentially worthless then. NOT CANON. NOT CARDS. Just another Token I fkn guess.

[@warp-hammer]

I unbuckled my seatbelt, at your suggestion, and the ensuing excitement resulted in a traumatic brain injury. Why Kenobs?

[@ruttokyrpa3472]

From The original upload:Worth to note that Collected Company has only been reprinted as a Judge Promo and a Secret Lair after its original printing in 2015. I would assume this makes it harder to get a non-foil playset

[@sanctred]

I dont see how people can have a problem with this. I have foils in my modern deck but they are in ultra pro sleeves held very tight in a deckbox. When I pull those bad boys out, they are flatter than a pancake. Sure if you just leave your deck laying loose for a long time in a high humidity room or something the card could curl up a bit and then be a problem, but WHO DOES THAT?

[@dragonlord4131]

Foils are not that hard to unwarp. I had a really warped card and i got most of the warp out by leaving in a pyrex baking pan with the lid on and had a small dish of water inside with the card.

[@CocoMura]

Tupperware and moisture packets fix CURLING but nobody talks about that.

[@NIRDIAN1]

By any law of physics they should just re-curl as soon as you take the deck anywhere, though?

[@CocoMura]

Nawh and it turns out they're drying up instead of becoming more moist.

[@leress]

People do talk about it, MTGgoldfish has a whole article about it. Also it depends if there too much or too little moisture to determine if moisture pack or silica packs are used.

[@CocoMura]

@@leress I just want to live in a world where we take care of our pringles.

[@PandaXs1]

idk how about wotc makes better foils that don't turn into taquitos

[@BenHubbird]

Vince: "I think it's interesting, but I don't think you'd have to buckle your seatbelt, it's not a fucking roller coaster" Also Vince (making the thumbnail): "buckle up lol"

[@LieseFury]

this has been an issue in ygo in the past. i have a full-foil Dawn Knight that's extremely curled. not sure if ygo still prints that type of card but any ccg/tcg that does is doing it on purpose. they know this problem exists.

[@jacob510]

As a judge who also only uses the same color sleeves (black matte dragonshield aka the best sleeves) I wouldn't have issued a warning to you either, unless there was a pattern. I would give a warning to someone with obvious curve in their deck due to foils but we can give them proxy cards to fix that problem.

[@neruneri]

For real though. Rather than DQ, you should be allowing proxies in a situation like this.

[@BasketChase98]

The problem with foils is that wizards is just cheap and shitty with their printing process. yugioh doesn't get this problem because even with 16 different kinds of foiling they still have consistent print quality and their cards don't warp so easily.

[@Linky609]

My street fighter secret lair looked like a fucking U out of the box

[@clips-b1j9c]

If they weren't altered, it isnt cheating, in my opinion. More like taking unfair advantage. (edit to add;) unless there is a clear rule, and it can be proven he knowingly ignored/voilated that rule. There should be a rule, or rather record profit wotc should make better premium cards

[@alexpoobum]

coco in upkeep if they ice one of your lands needed to cast it that turn

[@brittanyhamilton3914]

If wizards prints a card I should be able to use it as long as I take good care of the card....With foils it's really out of my hands if it warps or not or maybe it was warped right out the box kinda like my prerelase promos from brothers war. 😜

[@Clayray94]

i once had someone cheat this way on a webcam match. they had a polymorph deck with a single creature in it and cut straight to it from my chaos warp to get it right back. hard to prove over webcam though so i didnt even bother calling him out for it.

[@cylonsteve2511]

Unplayable foil cards have always been a bad joke! Only went to one regional Magic tournament myself a decade ago. No laughter, everyone uptight and no fun interaction, with exception from a draft side event. Didn't do badly, but would never would do one again. Much better fun in casual Commander.

[@tylerfoster2814]

You touch on it at the end. This should have made for an interesting test case, not that it's the first time this problem has come up. Certainly, he benefited by using marked cards, but given that not he, but WotC themselves marked the cards, I don't believe he should have been DQ'd. If WotC is going to sell a product as tournament legal, then that should remain true through normal use of the product. If that is not the reality of tournament play, then foils should be differently-bordered to indicate they're not tournament legal and marketed as such.

[@ocha-time]

PrEmIuM pRoDuCtS Can you imagine paying a premium for foil Warhammer 40K commander? Absolutely bonkers. IMPORTANT QUESTION IS WHY DOES WIZARDS SELL UNPLAYABLE PRODUCT? MAGIC 30?

[@ghoul479]

Reuploading just to respect a pronoun real class act man keep it up

[@hellionimmortis9362]

What was the change anyway?

[@Vescense]

a joke. right?

[@MisanthropicCurmudgeon]

You ever pray to the god of memes that a comment is some kind of joke?

[@Jakub7009]

@@MisanthropicCurmudgeon no, I’m an adult with a job

[@chloebowie2839]

@@MisanthropicCurmudgeonyou ever pray that people will learn some respect or will at least learn something?

[@marlowehansen]

Personally I think that it really shows the print quality, and that’s on wizards. I don’t think anyone shouldn’t be allowed to play cards that they spent money on as long as they are official magic cards, and are clearly not tampered with in any form. If you spend money on the game you should be allowed to use those cards. That being said, I don’t agree with people cheating and there should be as much don’t to prevent that as well

[@peggle09]

Does this mean that foils are not tournament legal now if this is a thing.

[@jereulmanen7093]

as a happy nexus of fate owner my didnt curve, but that might be because it has always been double sleeved and under pressure in my deck holder

[@Those_Weirdos]

It really sucks that this isn't a more-clean case of foils fucking something up, because this guy was CLEARLY cheating. I wish there was a cleaner situation for this where maybe the guy brought his deck to judges for evaluation and couldn't play his deck because he didn't have non-foil versions on hand or time to source them. WOTC needs to get its shit together finally about foils, this has always been a problem. I'd rather they print better physical quality cards, but they need to make a ruling.

[@sscjessica]

Saw this was taken down yesterday cool to see it got re uploaded