Do No Harm: Ceiling Distance - www.AcousticFields.com

[@bc527c]

The first time, during my journey with treating my room, that I climbed a ladder with music playing... I was astonished how much sound energy was mulching around up there! Thanks again for chatting on the phone with me this week! (bayard) Cheers!

[@AcousticFields]

B, Yes, your room is full of energy or sound fields. What people fail to realize is that these sound fields have an impact on sound quality.

The last time I was in a treating room I was talking to my doctor. 😋

[@Rivenrock]

I've got a ten foot ceiling... and a living room 24x20 feet. I feel blessed. Thank you for the info!

[@AcousticFields]

Your feeling is justified.

[@heisenberg3099]

I think the best solution for an eight foot ceiling is to build a 2x4 "cage" in the room. Once braced it won't be invasive to the actual stucture, especially if you're renting. I'm thinking of doing this at the next place I'm moving into. 2x4 cage with floor to ceiling corner traps, diffuser rear wall, sidewalls and ceiling treatment hanging a couple inches from the walls and ceiling on the cage at listening position. Also a room in the midde of the house will hopefully let the low frequencies "escape" through the thin walls (if you can set yourself up like that) just letting the treatment deal with 80hz and up hopefully. I feel like this would work as an ideal and realistic setup tell a proper studio/control room can be built.

[@AcousticFields]

H, A room within a room is a viable option. Stay away from 2' x 4" studs for frame. Use a 2' x 6" minimum.

[@heisenberg3099]

@@AcousticFields Cool, thanks for the reply. I was thinking more along the lines of a bare skeletal frame coming a few inches off the walls and ceiling sitting on the floor. Just enough framing wood to hold up thick side panels and an overhead absorber (cloud?) If it's fully open, should I still go for 2x6's? I saw your video on on roxul products. Would you say its safe to use certain mineral wool products and 100% seal it off with a vapor barrier, and use a thin sheet of foam infront for the high end? Thanks for all the videos, so much good info

[@allanjazz8260]

Hi D. We have a movie theatre. Don't want to deal with a separate C room. Want to track AND mix in the auditorium. Those Dimensions are 45' W x 55' L x 24' H. The floor is carpet over two layers of sub-flooring over 2X10 joists over the original concrete floor sloping from one to three feet below. The 50' walls are con block core and 1940-50's non-asbestos panels covering. One 45' wall with drywall and offices behind has a balcony beginning 11' above Aud. floor . Balcony extends back another 24' to a wall behind which are projection rooms, etc. The other 45' wall hosts the proscenium with a full curtain (35w x 20h) covering the screen. Ceiling is plaster over lath with massive timber joists with a cavity above. The desk and speakers can be located anywhere within the room that they will operate best. I'm thinking of using near fields as close as possible at the desk (the space is absorbing the energy from small units quickly). Although they will be necessary, we have no idea for a larger playback monitor as to size and placement. The music being produced is primarily Rock with an unusual degree of dynamic range. It can get very loud. It can be very soft. Detail in listening is important. We are experienced players and listeners. We hope to release commercially. We are analog to a great degree in practice and spirit. What do you think?

[@AcousticFields]

This issue is too complex to discuss on this platform. Fill out the information in this link. Follow the software instrcutions after submission and schedule a time slot to speak with Dennis. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/

[@nugfeesh]

Dennis is my absolute hero~ I would love to intern with him or have him as mentor one day

[@AcousticFields]

Thank you for your kind words

[@dennishines9996]

You say the 7-foot ceiling is worse than 8 foot ceiling but when using a bolt area calculator it shows that 8-foot ceilings puts me out of the bolt area but a 7-foot showing puts me into the bolt area(15X10X8 ROOM) I'm confused....

[@AcousticFields]

The Bolt ratios do not allow for the additional space required to treat the low frequency pressure issues created by small room dimensions. They are a general guideline that is over 40 years old. To treat the issues produced by a 7' ceiling height, you will have to lose 12" on the ceiling for treatment and possibly another 12" on the floor.

[@OswaldPH]

Hi, Did you already make a video on how sound travels on acrylic or plastic (thick gallon) surfaces? please let me know. Thanks.

[@AcousticFields]

J, Not specifically. It is always a good idea in any critical listening environment to stay away from glass and plastic.

[@OswaldPH]

@@AcousticFields oh. Thanks for answering that. I was about to DIY some curve diffuser using thick gallons cutted in half. Insulations are not accessible in my area and wood is very expensive. Thanks again.

[@markwilson0077]

So glad I found this channel.. I'm moving into a house, have several rooms to choose from to use as my home theatre/ listening room. The ideal room (as far as ease to set up) is a W14ft X L14ft X H9ft. All concrete walls, ceiling and floor. Help!? I'm coming from a beautiful 12ft vaulted ceiling with a 26ft L X W16ft Listening space.

[@AcousticFields]

M, Fill out the information in this link. Let's take a look. Include photos. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/.

[@bc527c]

14x14 will be a nightmare...

[@markwilson0077]

@@bc527c this is exactly my fear..hence seeking help. If it simply makes no sense or will cost too much to treat..then I'll probably just use the living room..which could equally be a nightmare..large opens to everything and a very acoustically resonant house. Everyone will be able to hear what's on the system. Between the devil and the deep blue sea..

[@markwilson0077]

@@AcousticFields Done. Have pics of alternative rooms if needs be

[@markwilson0077]

@ I rarely use headphones and they aren't suitable for guests and entertaining. Not to worry, I've selected a L18' X W14' X H15' room for my home theatre room and am mid design for acoustic treatments etc. Thanks

[@marttiinnanen4911]

Those who have low ceilings the disadvantage can be turned into an advantage by building a line source speaker. A line source that extends from floor to ceiling becomees acoustically infinite due to matching floor and ceiling reflections. Only bad side is, no commercial ready solutions obviously exist so a little DIY is required.

[@AcousticFields]

M, Line source determines the distribution pattern of the speakers within the room. Once the energy is released in the room, it becomes the domain of the room. Low ceiling heights will have a negative impact on low frequencies and everything above.

[@marttiinnanen4911]

@@AcousticFields Partially correct, D. I recommend to study line source theory and the effects of an infinite line source within a room. It becomes an acoustically perfect point source that negates much of the typical room problems.

[@Tragikofficial]

@acousticfields Dennis, I have an 8 foot drop down ceiling, when I removed a tile and poked my head up there....the ceiling space goes up to about 10 feet. This being the case, am I still plagued with the height problem? Should i take those thin foam tiles out of the ceiling or do they not matter? This is my Dual purpose, Mixing & Recording room. It's 12x15x8 and my SPL is about 73db. Thank you D

[@AcousticFields]

Lower frequency energy laughs at dropp ceiling tiles. It goes right through them. The actual distance you must use is hard surface to hard surface.

[@Tragikofficial]

@@AcousticFields Ok thank you. I feel better now lol.

[@FullContactDrummer]

Thankfully the basement in the house I'm looking at is 9 foot. Unfinished basement, my studio will be around 25x18. I'm really looking forward to the build for my studio that will be used 95% for drums.

[@AcousticFields]

Let us know when you are ready to proceed. We are currently over a year out with new designs but can usually find a time window for a single instrument usage room.

[@richardmerchant4243]

I have a crazy room. A-frame to 14-15ft.The angle is about 35 degrees. There is a dormer on one side of the room with a window(I know..bad juju) that's about 5'W and 8'H

[@AcousticFields]

Fill out the info in this link. Include pics of four walls and ceiling. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/

[@xcessivebeats8667]

thanks for the content its helped me.

[@awsomenesscaleb]

Tall line arrays can also address the ceiling issue.

[@AcousticFields]

No, they can not. Low frequency energy is a pressure wave. Pressure waves are not impacted by distribution systems. Once the energy leaves the speaker, the room owns it.

[@williamh5780]

I'm trying to figure out treatment for my listening room at homs. 8.5 foot ceilings, drywall one side, big bay windows on the other... I think I might just get a nice pair of headphones and be done with it... Lol.

[@AcousticFields]

You can not compare the two domains. They are just too different.

[@williamh5780]

@@AcousticFields you mean recording rooms Vs listening rooms? This vids for recording rooms is it? Ha e you got a vid for listening rooms with low ceilings?

[@milkman100001]

mine are 7.4 tall ceilings.luckily it sounds fine.

[@AcousticFields]

Mission accomplished.

[@goodheartmedia]

So I have slightly more than 7 feet in my garage that I plan on converting to a studio. Should I just not bother? Maybe take up basket weaving instead? :)

[@AcousticFields]

What type of studio?

[@goodheartmedia]

@@AcousticFields I'd like to have a live room capable of recording a full 4-5 piece band as well as a suitable control/mix room.

[@goodheartmedia]

But I'm also open to using the whole space as one large room too. The rough dimensions are 22' x 19', and I know a square room is a big no-no, which is why I thought of dividing it.

[@filippiasec]

A 4 meters height is quite a luxury, you don't see that often in Europe.

[@AcousticFields]

F, You are correct. We do not see it in the states either but it doesn't change the physics of the issues with low ceilings.

[@filippiasec]

@@AcousticFields Frankly, I'm glad you did this video. I was convinced that high rooms are rather problematic due to reverb the height may introduce. Looks like I was wrong.

[@AcousticFields]

F, You are correct. Higher ceilings do produce more room volume, thus more reverb. However, The low, middle, and high-frequency reflection management that is drastically improved due to the larger floor to ceiling distances, is better managed with absorption/diffusion. The audio impact of this management is huge. I don't have words to explain how huge but floor/ceiling energy is directly responsible for the definition, separation, and "space" and at least 30 % of all unwanted room modal pressure issues. The management of high to lower reverb time is much easier to treat, so there is no argument ever what must be done first.

[@filippiasec]

@@AcousticFields I thankful for such a great answer!

[@rg6556]

Assuming the lowest point of ceiling is at least 10'-11', will a vaulted ceiling works better than a flat ceiling? Or is it the other way around?

[@AcousticFields]

R, It depends on the ceiling height that is flat. It depends on the distance from the ceiling to the structure itself. Too many variables to consider. A vaulted ceiling works well in a live room where you record instruments. It can work well in control or mix room if the angles of the vault do not interfere with energy at the mix position. What is your intended usage?

[@rg6556]

@@AcousticFields I was thinking more in terms of 2 ch listening room. I imagined a vaulted ceiling sloping upward, toward listening position will be beneficial (by providing more volumn with unparalleled floor & ceiling) but prehaps a high enough flat ceiling can be easier control & predict with right ceiling treatment?

[@AcousticFields]

R, Stay with dimensions that are greater than 11'. Flat or vaulted can be treated.

[@spawnofwar]

Is there any hope for a room that has a 10 foot ceiling half way and is 8 feet the other half?

[@donnythompson408]

I have a ceiling that pitches up from 8’6” to 12’ over a length of 16’. Is that going to work for me with treatment, or against me entirely, with or without treatment on the ceiling?

[@DC-ns6vo]

I want to know too. I'm 8'6'' to 13'6'' high ceiling over 15'2'' feet of floor, room width is 17'4''. 4/12 pitch. Just plywood on the ceiling and ready for the proper treatment. 32'' Blown in cellulose behind the plywood. Can't find info on rake roofs. Speakers on the low side projecting to the high side. Movie Theatre is the main usage, Music secondary.

[@scottsmith4145]

I'm glad that most new homes today are going with 9 ft ceilings.

[@PanAmStyle]

But just try building a listening room in a basement.

[@AcousticFields]

Ceiling height is the most critical of all the three dimensions when it comes to critical listening rooms.

[@scottsmith4145]

@@PanAmStyle that's precisely what I'll be doing with our new constructionhome. Basement is the only real estate I have. If things go as designed planned our basement ceiling will be almost 11ft high. That wasn't for sound. It was designed as 9 feet but because our lot slopes so much our foundation wall needs to be higher so I guess that will be a benefit acoustically. However, I've heard that basements can be difficult due to all the concrete walls. The walls are ICF so foam all around. Not sure if that will help or not...?

[@ninji5226]

I have a 7ft ceiling currently in my basement with the acoustic tiles. I'm about to remove them. It will give me a height between the joists at a little over 8ft. Does that make a difference, removing the tiles, or doesn't it matter? Total room is 24 ft long, and 11 ft wide. I planned on 2 in foam tiles at my surround sound refection point, but I'm new to this and on a tight budget. Thanks for the videos.

[@AcousticFields]

N, A 7' ceiling height for any audio room is a nightmare scenario. Do you have another room you could use?

[@ninji5226]

@@AcousticFields Unfortunatly no. I have a 1200sq ft colonial style house so all the rooms are fairly small with the basement being the single biggest room. As it stands i have my home gym down there now with an onkyo sub and 4 speakers and i can barely hear the bass. I didnt move it around to optimize it though, its tucked where it fit. Ultimately i was curious if the space between the joist would help or hurt, and i also plan on putting thick curtains along both side walls. I do plan on doing the analysis on your website, im just waiting until im further along to get better pics. Thanks for the response.

[@Skwid-Lives]

Do the PVC drop ceiling tiles absorb or reflect the Mid and high range frequencies

[@AcousticFields]

I am not familiar with "PVC drop ceiling tiles". The tiles that they use in drop ceilings do absorb energy but at a low rate and level. This is the problem with the acoustical business. They claim that anything will absorb energy but you have to match the rate and level of absorption to the room issues you are trying to treat. I could claim that my gym sock is a sound absorbing material which I am certain it is at some higher frequencies. However, you could fill a room full of socks and still not solve your acoustic issues.

[@Skwid-Lives]

@@AcousticFields 🤔 so your saying hang all my gym socks down there. That might save me some money

[@Peanut-Butter-Banana-Rama]

I'm looking at a tiny home, about 50 - 60sqm, any suggestions on an inexpensive but good way to soundproof it?

[@AcousticFields]

With noise as the enemy, you must know how strong the enemy is (amplitude) and how many troops they have (frequency). It is not the size of the house, it is the size of the noise enemy we are fighting. There is no one size fits all for barrier design. Every material you use to fight noise is frequency and amplitude dependent. You must measure first then design/build second.

[@Inabottle]

Ugh, so I dont even have 7ft, I have a basement with a drop ceiling at 6'8", So there is probably 10-12 inches above the drop ceiling in areas for some absorption and I can reinforce the drop ceiling to accommodate the weight, but it sounds like this is the best I will be able to do. Wish I had a better choice of rooms :(

[@AcousticFields]

S, Low-frequency energy goes right through a dropped ceiling. You actually have two heights to a drop ceiling room. You have the hard structure to hard structure distance which is what matters for the low end and you have a middle and high-frequency issue with the dropped ceiling when it comes to reflections from the drop ceiling.

[@Inabottle]

@@AcousticFields yeah I was planning on filling as much of the void between the upstairs floor and the drop ceiling with as much absorbing materials as possible, and see if I can treat the ceiling panels the best I can.

[@oscarperalta8806]

is this info meant for live instruments or for mixing/mastering?

[@AcousticFields]

O, Technically, yes for all usages.

[@AcousticFields]

Remember the room only sees energy. Room usage is distance and volume dependent.

[@danewallace9196]

How about a dome shaped room, with large diameter?

[@AcousticFields]

D, It would depend on what your usage is going to be along with the ceiling height. If your ceiling heights exceed 15 - 20' then this structure type could be used for a live room depending on diameter distance.

[@professorh8398]

I'm designing a home. I want a room for recording a small choir. Let's say that I create a room that is 14' high. What should the length and width of that room be? Would 14' be high enough? What are the golden dimensions for me?

[@AcousticFields]

What will be the amount of people in the room? What is the gender mix in the room?

[@professorh8398]

@@AcousticFields Let's say up to 8. Approximately 4 males and 4 females but honestly, it's usually more female. I can make the dimensions whatever you recommend, including the ceiling. Solo recording will be done there as well.

[@edwinbond5995]

So just to be clear, it's not so much that 8ft is some horrid number mathematically, but that it doesn't leave enough space to do any treatment?

[@AcousticFields]

E, Both are true.

[@ricklord6123]

Is it feasible to remove the drywall and put treatment in the joist cavities then maybe recover with a better material than drywall ?

[@AcousticFields]

Yes, We do it all the time. It is called our CAW system.www.acousticfields.com/carbon-absorber-wall/

[@xXSeak]

I currently rent a house with 9 feet ceiling, but they made these drywall decoration ceilings near the walls. It's like 1.5 feet wide and reduces the ceiling to about 8.25 feet but in the middle of the room it's 9 feet. Is something like this bad for sound or neutral? Or even beneficial? It's a concrete ceiling under the drywall.

[@AcousticFields]

Room sound has many components. What is your room usage?

[@xXSeak]

@@AcousticFields I have this dry wall extra layer in every room. I have my office with studio monitors and my bedroom with projector and sound system, but both rooms are quite small, around 16m2. Ground floor has the tv, but the ceiling is 1 feet higher. Meaning 10 feet in the middle and 9.25 near the walls. It's a long townhouse, 4m wide and brick walls. Once I build my own house I will definitely go with an 11-foot ceiling or higher, thank you for the video.

[@ctr289]

14 feet?! Are you for real? :))) That's almost a double floor space already

[@AcousticFields]

Try listening in a higher ceiling dimension. You will see how real everything sounds.

[@keithmoriyama5421]

Tip: When building a HT/studio in your basement, use the entire ceiling height right up to the floor. The joists add 14" of additional height and the cross beams act as natural diffusers. Then fill the entire ceiling with absorptive material covering the 'second' (lower) ceiling with permeated diffusion, with enough energy to reflect mid and highs for a mor neutral sound.

[@AcousticFields]

Cross beams do not act as natural diffusers. Filling the entire ceiling with sound absorption materials begs the question, What is the frequency and amplitude of the floor to ceiling issues you are filling the ceiling with materials to absorb? What frequencies and amplitudes are you trying to attenuate. This sounds like a bunch of guessing and guessing will, never and I repeat never, get you to the sonic goals most strive for.

[@trentmiller6123]

Thank you for posting on this subject! I’m stuck with an 8’ ceiling and can’t find any recommendations for listening position height other than NOT in the vertical center (48”). Is it better to put the listening position a littler higher, at say 52” with the acoustical axis of the monitors at the same height or is below vertical center better? My room is roughly 10x12 with 8’ ceilings (half the back wall is 11.5’ and the other half is 12.5’). The floor is currently carpet (will likely be hardwood in the future) walls are drywall and 3 of the 4 walls are facing the exterior of the home and have concrete blocks just on the other side of a thin layer of dense insulation. The 4th wall has an air gap between the next room’s drywall. I’d love any “ideal” vertical height recommendations since I’m in the middle of doing tons of room measures with REW while I redo my room. Thanks in advance!!

[@AcousticFields]

T, Let's take a look. Fill out the information in this link: www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/

[@citadelo5ricks]

What did you end up doing Trent? I have an even lower ceiling to deal with !

[@mcphablemastering3387]

@@citadelo5ricks Hey Jeremy! I did a couple things and a ton of testing. I finished my treatment plan for my room with a mix of absorptive and diffuse or range-limited bass traps (location dictating the type), including an absorptive bass trap overhead between my listening position and speakers (GIK full-range Monster - 7.5" deep), and I moved my ear height and speakers' acoustic axis up to 50" instead of being centered at 47" high. I tried going lower and even higher but 50" just sounded better. After TONS of measuring/listening and position adjustments using all the general wisdom... I was able to get my room to +/-5dB with 1/6th oct smoothing from 36Hz-20kHz (better results of course with 1/3rd or 1/2 oct). This is about as good as I can get in my small room with my Barefoots and my Argosy desk but since I know exactly where the two dips and single peak are, plus I know how it sounds so well, I can make great decisions. If I'm ever in doubt, I reference my Audeze's with Sonarworks correction, but I'm really just using them now for QC or late night work. The takeaway is you'll most likely need to be higher than center height and listen a ton and measure a ton and have a system for tracking what you've tried and what sounds best. Hope that helps!

[@citadelo5ricks]

@@mcphablemastering3387 Super helpful! I use Audeze LCD-X and now I mix/master on them and QC on the monitors! However, tuning the room is a constant learning opportunity. Reveal plugin is very interesting. Thanks for your insights!

[@wizzelhoart]

i have my setup in my basement...2m(6 1/2 ft) high ceilings. yes im miserable

[@AcousticFields]

I am sure it is a low frequency nightmare.

[@markdelange980]

according to your own words, if 80% of the acoustical problems in a room are due to side wall problems, then why bother with a sealing of 14 foot?

[@AcousticFields]

Every surface area contributes 17% to the total sound quality. You must decide what degree of resolution you require.