Do the DUELS in DUNE change the RULES for Movie Fights?

[@sucraloseUncle]

Bald: check Expert with bladed weapons: check You know... Matt might be a Harkonnen.

[@VideoMask93]

Calling the Harkonnens "experts" with bladed weapons might be a bit of an overstatement...

[@danielbrown9368]

@@VideoMask93 looks like we found an Atreides.

[@HuxleysShaggyDog]

Do the Harkonnen deeply appreciate the butt or penetration to the same degree? Besides Feyd. And probably his Uncle.

[@MaineMan2023]

😂😂👍🏻

[@EgoEroTergum]

​@@VideoMask93 Feyd was pretty good.

[@Tar-Elenion]

“Gurney says there’s no artistry in killing with the tip, that it should be done with the edge.” “Gurney’s a romantic,” the Duke growled. This talk of killing suddenly disturbed him, coming from his son. “I’d sooner you never had to kill…but if the need arises, you do it however you can-tip or edge.” “Gurney Halleck’s words were there to remember: “The good knife fighter thinks on point and blade and shearing-guard simultaneously. The point can also cut; the blade can also stab; the shearing-guard can also trap your opponent’s blade.”” “Killing with the point lacks artistry,” Idaho had once told Paul, “but don’t let that hold your hand when the opening presents itself."

[@matthewlabins4974]

Quoting to explain ftw. Also needed to mention that they stripped the suits before the flight to avoid wasting valuable suits. Both the training and that detail would've made the slashing make full sense

[@elijahherstal776]

Well, I will have you know that I'm a master of the art of 'just the tip'.

[@dianapennepacker6854]

All groovy till someone slits your tendons causing you to drop your weapon. Great thing about Dune is that melee makes perfect sense in the lore. I wish all movies used armor or a shield, or regeneration. Something to give reasons on why heroes are avoiding death instead of giving the enemy Storm Trooper aim. Even John Wick

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

@@dianapennepacker6854 Ah, was treating you like a grown up, but then you come out with a reference to that puerile childish nonsense.

[@elijahherstal776]

@@dianapennepacker6854 that's why we wear protective layers, though. Dune's melee makes sense... but the rest of the lore about the shields causing a nuclear explosion? Absurd. Sounds like the worst engineering oversight ever, or a really idiotic way to make a sci-fi novel into a fantasy novel.

[@Glimmlampe1982]

In the first fight they probably also tried to take Paul's shield training into account. In the book it's mentioned that he often slows down his attacks, as you have to when fighting shields, but that's interpreted by the fremen as cruely "toying"

[@jamielondon6436]

Yes, they really didn't adapt the book fights well, IMHO.

[@MrMartinSchou]

I thought of it more as showing that when push came to shove, Paul was a VASTLY superior fighter than his opponent, to the point that he COULD essentially play patty cakes with him. E.g. if I, someone who has zero experience, were to spar with Matt, I'd honestly be surprised if the skill gap wouldn't allow Matt to play sticky hands with me. And, again the way I'm interpreting it, it also explains why Paul was so reluctant to actually kill him, because Paul didn't see it as anything even remotely close to being a fair fight. He didn't end the fight until Stilgar points out that there is only one way to end the fight and that Paul should stop toying with him.

[@Glimmlampe1982]

@MrMartinSchou maybe that's the intention in the movie, which I actually haven't seen yet. In the books (if I remember correctly, it's been a while) we see the scene through the eyes of Paul's mother. And for one she's not sure if he actually is capable of killing someone (as it is his very first real fight) and she's seeing that he attacks as his opponent if wearing a shield (which is what he was training to do)

[@j-uw8gx]

They explicitly didn't in the movie for this fight. The whole arc of Paul getting a little too cocky after the fight and a little too comfortable with killing someone never shows up in the film. He's just kinda portrayed as scared and wimpy at this point. Good movies overall, but they definitely took a lot of liberties with Paul's character and development.

[@carlcramer9269]

You actually hear someone say that Paul is playing with his opponent, and (at least in the book) this is how Paul's shield training manifests.

[@johnjapuntich3306]

If you were deep in the desert away from sietch, a cut up stillsuit, while not immediately lethal, would mean a slow death unless you could repair your stillsuite... So, cuts on Arrakis could have consequences not seen here on Earth.

[@Kroiznacher]

and that's why in the books the fremen undress for their duells

[@johnjapuntich3306]

@Kroiznacher Exactly! I was going to come back and say this...

[@titanscerw]

Thos villainuveau films are stupid on so many levels ...

[@Thetasigmaalpha]

Not stupid but streamlined so loosing nuance.

[@Robert399]

Good point but damaging someone stillsuit isn't gonna stop them attacking you.

[@WillMoon]

In the books we see swords and knives used commonly on Arrakis bc shields couldn’t be used, as they would call the worms and send them into a frenzy. Additionally shooting laser based weapons and shields caused a type of nuclear explosion, so we don’t see lasers being used where someone could potentially have a shield. Dart guns and rifles were common in the books. The Atreides soldiers carried Kindjals and push daggers a lot IIRC, where the Harkonens tended to carry longer swords and blunt force weapons. Duncan Idaho is a Ginaz swordmaster too, it was a cool bit of lore when they showed Duncan fighting against Sardaukar troops, as the Ginaz would be some of the few who could stand up to them and win.

[@titanscerw]

This, yes the good lore.

[@thunder2434]

​@@titanscerw Indeed! :)

[@JenksAnro]

I had never realised this before, but I don't think the fight ends the way you say it does. Feyd stabs Paul in Paul's left side with his own knife, and then tries to stab him. Paul grabs the blade with his right hand, and then redirects it. But we see after this that Paul's left hand has stabbed Feyd with Paul's Knife (the one that was in his own side) And afterwards we see Paul draw Feyd's knife out of his own right shoulder. So Paul redirected Feyd's knife into his shoulder with his right hand while drawing out the knife in his own side and stabbing Feyd with the left.

[@axelfoley133]

Yep this was always my interpretation as well. Paul's initial stab wound is to his left torso. When Feyd falls away, Paul has a knife in his left hand, and is stabbed in the right shoulder. There is no knife in his torso. So Paul allowed Feyd to stab him in the shoulder/chest and used that moment to take his own knife from his belly and to stab Feyd with it.

[@Mynameismegalex]

Just a note, on the second fight's ending, Paul allows the second blade to plunge into his shoulder, at the same time retrieving the other blade from his body and using it to stab the guy. He doesn't divert the blade back.

[@JasonJrake]

Thank you. Thanks what I thought too.

[@tsmcgu]

Yeah, that's what I thought happened

[@thunder2434]

Also my interpretation. Great to get verification. :)

[@ShagShaggio]

would have been nice to actually be able to SEE what happened lol. matts version is cooler.

[@tsmcgu]

@@ShagShaggio Or they pan back and BOTH daggers are sticking out of Feyd... and a third and fourth one for some reason...

[@AaronLitz]

If I was about to have a knife shoved through my face and the only way to stop it was to grab the blade, _I would grab the blade._ It isn't a lightsaber, it wouldn't vaporize my hand. Especially if I was wearing gloves like Paul here, the blade didn't even cut him.

[@robo5013]

I worked with a Vietnam War vet and he had a nasty scar on the palm of his left hand. He got it when an enemy charged out of the bush with his bayonet and all the guy had time to do was grab it and hold on long enough to get his own knife out and end the fight.

[@michaelborror4399]

Cool fights, looks like the main character definitely could of used some lighter shoes, and had his hands a little lower in his starting stance at 17:30 with a little more movement if we're gonna go snake style instead of fencing style with knives though? Or at least like your about to kick him in the face in a higher stance or back up easier myself, and probably not a 90° right and left foot orientation in my fencing stance either like karate or even after doing a knifehand block first I think? As snake would obviously be too fast with a lighter slash to his outstretched fencing wrist from a low dart and half cutting his hand off with my tantos though? And try not to run at the guy with a shank at his side and then get chased with your backturned like that prison video, and circle to the right and offside and then back and confuse the opponent, or catch the wrist and bringing the arm behind the back can be good with some backhands sometimes?

[@matthemming9105]

Liam Neeson grabbing Tim Roths blade has lived rent free in my head since I saw it on the big screen. Would love to see you revisit that film!

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

That is one of my favorite sword fighting scenes in any movie. It just feels so gritty and raw.

[@yiarkungfu]

It's one of my favorite sword fights as well. It's probably in the top 10 most realistic movie fights with swords.

[@somthingbrutal]

one detail in the book i like with the Jamis duel, is Paul takes a bit of time to get used to fight against an unshielded opponent, he is really fast on the defence but keeps missing Jamis because he slows to account for the shield that's not there.

[@kirohaas3193]

Fun fact; "May your knife chip and shatter" is them saying "May you die", because a crys-knife is kept sharp and durable by being kept near your body's electrical field according to Dune Lore. A crys-knife kept near your body won't chip or shatter, because a sandworm consumes a lot of rock, and their teeth are thus made to eat rocks, very hard to break.

[@squishypineT03]

Electrical field?

[@Agarwaen]

Not quite. A new, untreated, crysknife would need to be kept close to a body, but afterwards could be stored like any other weapon.

[@MrBlaktoe]

Exactly. They are nearly impossible to break. Thus making that pronouncement more akin to a prayer.

[@thinusconradie4297]

Well now that was super useful information. Thanks. I love the movies, but have not read the books. I have the first book on my shelf though.

[@JasonFahy]

@@MrBlaktoe I forget if it's after hearing Jamis's curse, but I remember Paul considers that. The line is something like "...he didn't know the breaking [tension?] of this blade, didn't even know if it *could* be broken". Can't remember if they said breaking strength/tension/strain/point; I think ultimate breaking strain is what real-life nerds say.

[@ANIMOUS8]

I'm glad you mentioned the head being vulnerable because I was going to bring up the fact that most of the slashes and cuts were at the head and throat and that can be very. effective

[@mrcaonashi2415]

I also think some of Fyde's slashes instead of stabs can be explained by the fact that the character belives he is a better fighter. He wants to draw the fight out and savor the kill. Plus, although he has combat experince, but he also fought alot of slaves in the arena. I think his fighting style reflects that.

[@InReserveProductions]

Feyd is inherently cocky and fights like it, to the point where in the book and the David Lynch movie when he realises Paul is a better fighter and is winning the fight, Feyd tries to cheat and use a hidden blade in his suit to stab Paul.

[@nunyadayumbusiness591]

"There's no artistry in killing with the tip."

[@thunder2434]

Slaves and drugged Attreides with only half-shields and basically naked. Then it was that one Attreides who wasn't drugged properly (in the movie it's the Baron testing him, in the book it's more likely political infighting in the wider family just below the Baron, maybe even Rabban or Piter behind it.

[@szalaierik]

​@@thunder2434 it was orchestrated by the captive Thufir.

[@raffaellointernational2401]

Trained for awhile with a martial scool in Rome thats been around since 1500's and was the last school to organize knife duels in the 1950s, they still train military personnel in knife combat. In both single hand and second hand duels the first rule of knife fighting NO SLASHING. Second rule was DISTANCE, a grapple or close contact almost always ended the duel on the leave. Third rule was dodge not block and keep oval pattern footwork.

[@brendanmckenna5391]

With regard to the "sticky hands drill" (~12:00)... one thing to remember is that this is Paul's first actual fight, so him doing things that are like drills would be reasonable

[@Laarye]

In the book, and the miniseries, Paul and Jamis fought in a sealed chamber with stilsuits removed. Also, in the book, it is mentioned that the nerve root of the tooth leaves a hollow track from the tip and is typically filled with poison. Jessica caught on to this with Mapes when presented with her knife, as it needed to be blooded before resheathing, and at first had the point going in for the cut, but Mapes gave a sign that Jessica's training caught and then turned it to the edge. Which made Mapes believe even more in the prophecy. They really underutilized the use of poisons in the movies. In the books, they're are so much more uses. Like Paul getting stabbed in Part 2 by Feyd, that didn't happen in the book, and the gladiator scene earlier explained that Feyd uses a poisoned blade, and in Part 2 Feyd uses his own dagger, not the Emperor's.

[@DutchPatterson]

The choreo Roger Yuan worked into the Dune films has been, in my opinion, some of the very best in film history, and I’m very thankful he had a director with the restraint to not ruin it with shaky cam and cutting.

[@tiltskillet7085]

Great breakdown, Matt. I just want to mention a mistake though. The camerawork makes it hard to tell, but the second fight ends with Paul pulling the crysknife from his own body "undercamera" and stabbing Feyd with it, while Feyd is completely focused on stabbing what ends up being Paul's shoulder. If you look at the still from 33:38, you can see the handle in Paul's hand isn't that of the Emperor's dagger. It's more clear in the full clip: when Paul pulls the knife from Feyd's body, you can see the Emperor's blade still in Paul's shoulder.

[@toddellner5283]

When I worked in the ER we saw a fair number of hand wounds when someone using a guardless knife, stabbed another person, hit bone, and the hand rode up onto the blade causing nasty wounds to the palm or fingers.

[@Bikewer]

Thus I’ve always maintained that any sort of dagger or thrust-centric knife should have a guard.

[@theBenStrothmann]

Loved the fights in Dune. If you ask me, they found a very good balance between realism/authenticity and more theatrical moves / making things slow enough so the typical audience can mostly tell what's going on.

[@Na_Picta_Irskr]

Also. Paul pulled his own knife out of himself to stab Feyd. Fred's knife doesn't get deflected and Paul pulls it out of himself after Feyd collapses. Edit: I meant Feyd not Fred, but it's too funny to change.

[@kennethg9277]

Tee hee 'fred'

[@Na_Picta_Irskr]

@kennethg9277 my shame is limitless 🤣

[@donaldleblanc3056]

You mentioned wanting to get up off the ground in a knife fight. While I would generally agree, I recently say a show where they tested various martial artists in various scenarios. The defend against a knife attack scenario was very interesting. Most failed rather spectacularly. One fellow did simply drop to his back and defended himself with his feet. Thus preventing fatal cuts to his torso. This was a timed trial, and only the attacker had the knife, but I thought quite an interesting result. It was in the second season of the show Ultimate Self-Defense Championship. Worth a watch.

[@donaldleblanc3056]

I see later in the piece you saw the same show !😊

[@azazelreficulmefistofelicu7158]

That show didn't consider cuts or stabs to the legs. Nice shirts but nothing for the legs. They even had to think for a while before considering a face/eye stab an stopping wound. That's a nice show, improving every season. Pulling guard against an standing knife armed opponent is silly. Both statements are true and not conflicting against each other.

[@BigHossHackworth]

I never really understood the never go to the ground mantra. It’s a bit like saying never get punched or never get stabbed. You don’t always have a choice.

[@tonymack4120]

​@@BigHossHackworth The point is to avoid if possible but be prepared if you absolutely have to

[@davefletch3063]

It ignored the most fatal cut and that is the femoral artery. You will die in seconds. Staying on your back and giving the attacker that target as a gift is very, very foolish

[@THEQuantumBacon]

Is there anything to the thought that a reason why there is so much slashing is, yes, it looks more dramatic, but also is far less likely to end up in a serous injury if a choreography mistake is made? I’d think even prop weapons jabbed in a vulnerable spot could be quite painful, damaging or even deadly.

[@kimashitawa8113]

I thought the same

[@yiarkungfu]

It's likely why the thrust to Feid's head was several inches above it.

[@EasyGameEh]

11:33 i think that is or is supposed to be an indication that jamis have already lost his shit and basically accepted his fate in a sense, there's no will to fight in him any more

[@GreatistheWorld]

yes, and wanted to add it shows Jamis has depleted moves Paul does not have a response to. It looks rote because the fight is done and there is nothing more to say. The dialogue is over

[@adrianperry9961]

If this was fully true to the book, they would be fighting in just shorts, not the stillsuits

[@titanscerw]

This

[@kemarisite]

Which is one of the nice details from the 2000 SciFi miniseries with Alec Newman.

[@yiarkungfu]

@@kemarisiteI'll have to check that out.

[@VincentWebb-z7s]

The first duel with Paul and Jamus. In the book, they are in their lion cloths. Movie kept them in their armor

[@kemarisite]

A detail that was kept in the 2000 SciFi miniseries with Alec Newman.

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

Matt: I'm qualified but not an expert. Also Matt: Proceeds to demonstrate expertise. I love this guy!

[@szalaierik]

Not many on the planet have as much expertise as him but what, we love him like this, modest.

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

@@szalaierik It is a fine quality that we don't see enough today.

[@jasonkonopinski961]

Dune is one of my very favorite books! One thing to note: Paul Muad'Dib is fully immersed in Fremen culture during his duel with Feyd Rautha. He fights alongside the Fedaykin. Herbert based the Fremen on Bedouin, and while there were certain artistic licenses taken for dramatic on-screen effect, I wonder how Arab fighting styles might be represented.

[@lucasbechtol4126]

Come on, Matt, killing with the point lacks artistry! (It's a book reference, not actual criticism, I'm enjoying the video and learning stuff from it, as usual.)

[@BakunauaX2435]

I don't know what does mean, but It did had artistry. I think you should look into rapier fights

[@Diphoe1]

I was training in the Inosanto system back in the 90’s. And we were told there is a difference between “slash” and “cutting” with a blade. We were also taught how to “thrust slash” using the point of the knife. Practicing the angle drills.

[@yiarkungfu]

That's cool. I trained with one of his best students for several years. Dan Innosanto is probably the greatest martial artist who ever lived.

[@matthewbreytenbach4483]

Great video! I quite like the way Paul moved in that second duel, especially things like that corkscrew flip he did. The thing with Paul is that he's a very skilled practitioner of Prana Bindu, so he has not only great strength and agility but also a superhuman level of control over his body. So movements and tactics that a normal person might not want to risk are fairly easy for him to pull off, and I like how that aspect seems to have been represented. I've done a similar defensive kick out of reflex before, and have seen the concept in at least one historical source, so it's viable.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Fight review suggestion: The bridge scene in Robin Hood, Men in Tights.

[@Rockstar-bq5fm]

I do really enjoy you’re film fight breakdowns. And I’d certainly like to see more. Rob Roy is one of my favourite. Couple others to recommend The Mark of Zorro (Tyrone Powers/Basil Rathbone) The Duelists (Harvey Keital/Keith Carridine) The Deluge (Daniel Olbrychski/Tadeusz Łomnicki) Scaramouche (Stewart Granger/Mel Ferrer)

[@titanscerw]

Rob Roy Deluge Duelists Yes, I like those too.

[@hollyingraham3980]

The Duel lists would be a multi part. Love that film!

[@yiarkungfu]

Matt all of the above would be awesome.

[@mellonbread]

Besides fight choreography reasons, the use of the edge over the point could be cultural based on the novel. In the high culture of the Imperium the use of the point is considered crude, the edge artful - a detail Frank Herbert borrowed from the fighting practices of the Caucasus as described in Sabres of Paradise. But Paul's instructors considered survival more important than art, and taught him how to kill with the point when necessary. I could be wrong but I also recall the Fremen consider stabbing disrespectful because crysknives sometimes contain a well-tip full of poison, which you'd only use on someone whose water you consider unworthy of recycling. Not something to be done in a ritual duel, even if your blade isn't poisoned. Would love a breakdown of the gladiator fight on Giedi Prime.

[@DJMarcO138]

Still-suits, to the best of my knowledge, are NOT "armor". They're a life support system. Slashing someone's life support system, which would compromise the catch-pockets, which held reclaimed water would *absolutely* make sense as a tactic. Even if you don't kill the opponent outright, you could still doom them to die by virtue of rendering their life support system useless.

[@JustGrowingUp84]

Sure, but what does it matter if they die hours later, when they will have plenty of opportunity to kill you before that?! Damaging the still suit is not like a wound that will actually hamper them during the fight. Also, if they know that they're gonna die anwyay, this might make them more aggressive as they would be bent on revenge, so they would be less concerned about a double as long as they can take you with them.

[@ctrlaltdebug]

They strip before a duel to avoid damaging the valuable stillsuits.

[@Beorninki]

Speaking of slashing, in Finland in the 19th century there was a so-called Häjyjä. They have often been romanticized, they were actually a group of idle robbing and raping young men. Their weapon was a knife, puukko, a Finnish multipurpose knife, which was much better suited for precise woodworking than e.g. Bovie knife. But at least according to the stories, they specifically slashed the targets of their violence, as stabbing could lead to death (and a prison sentence, which was sometimes served in Siberia). Slashing was done with the index finger placed on top of the blade to prevent too deep cuts. According to the family story of one of my acquaintances, they got their surname Tuikkanen because they didn't really know how to cut, but they stabbed (Tuikkanen means something the same as stinging). And get certain consequences.

[@BoomerZ.artist]

John Wick (the first movie in the kitchen scene) when he is struggling with a guy, hits the back of his knife to stab it into his opponent. So some movies do show that.

[@BartyDontCrouch]

Just as a random note. In the fight with Feyd Rautha, i'm pretty sure Paul pulls the knife from his own stomach and uses that to finish off Feyd after diverting the dagger in his right hand. As you can see the final knife is in his left hand. Anyway just thought it would be a helpful FYI :) Edit : After re-watching i'm now 100% sure on this. Matt if you see this, are there any documented events of individuals pulling blades from their body to dispatch an opponent?

[@austrociking4345]

Fun tidbit: if you go frame by frame during the sequence where Paul gets stabbed with his own blade, you’ll see during the standup grappling portion that Paul actually is about to lock Feyd’s arm before Paul’s left hand mysteriously withdraws until he gets stabbed with his own blade. Its blink and you’ll miss it, but for the sake of choreography, Timothy had to give up the superior position and totally withdraw his left arm for no reason to make the redirect and stab possible 😂

[@hrodvitnir6725]

Rob Roy was one of my favourit movies growing up so I'd love to see a return of it on the channel!

[@juliahenriques210]

Suggestion: please review the shorter fights in Scaramouche. They're textbook fencing, and there's also some interesting training methods featured in there.

[@goyasolidar]

Something you probably haven't considered in the analysis is that crysknives are much sharper than any modern day blade in existence, able to cut through even protective gear with a slashing cut. Crysknives are functionally different from the kindjals used by the soldiers of the Imperium, which are purposed for shield fighting. A shorter blade was sometimes used in accompaniment with the kindjal, called a slip-tip, which was often poisoned.

[@yiarkungfu]

Matt great breakdown as always. "Defanging the snake" is the #1 goal in Filipino Kali. You slash at the hand, wrist and forearm constantly and if you can trap the opponent's arm for a split second the knife should already be there for the disabling cut. They didn't employ this strategy at all. As far as their stance goes I've been taught to stay light on your toes, circling your opponent, moving in and out and leading only with the point of the blade. Not bending over, leading with your head, your empty hand or your leg. Always keeping the pointy end pointed at your opponent assures that if they rush you they'll impale themselves. One more thing they didn't address because no one got cut, is that any type of cut causes the body to go into shock and with each slice the the brain of the injured person slows them down and likely make them pass out.

[@JakobIlar]

In the books, duels are fought without wearing still suits (valuable equipment), and the water of the loser goes to the winner. In part, this is to replenish water lost during the combat....

[@knate44]

I'm absolutely all for more dagger or knife content: be it legal cases, historical accounts, movie/tv/book reviews, "what if" questions, or treatises. Bonus points if you get excuses to show off some channel favourites like the Bowie knife, kukri, navaja, or Fairbairn Sykes.

[@yiarkungfu]

I'll second that.

[@spiritusmundi7325]

Having studied FMA it should be known the Spanish Influence in blade fighting had a huge influence on Phillipines and weapon culture. They have a blade culture not gun culture and my advise is if you see a Phillipino with a knife “Run”!

[@TheMegaAsh]

I was one in a drunken conversation with a bloke who was much bigger then me, he was a former body builder and would have KO'd me with one punch. He was telling a story about this time a "midget" as he said started mouthing off to him on the train and that he was just sitting there thinking "Bro, I'm far bigger then you and you want to fight!". I replied with "muscle isn't everything in a fight if you don't know how to use it!", he then told me that he was a brown belt in Karate and pushed his chest out. I took a sip of my beer and just calmly said" Filipino martial artist" and his chest deflated faster then a car tyre that just ran over the police spike strips! FMA has a reputation for a reason and as you said, if you ever encounter a FMA practitioner you should run. It doesn't matter if we have a weapon in our hands or not because we train to utilize anything as a weapon but we also have one of the more deadly empty hand systems.

[@mistercroc9407]

Just the fact that the blades don't make an audible ringing or swishing noise with every move was a great improvement compared to the usual hollywood knife fight/attack scenes. The scenes were appropriately suspenseful and dramatic. Fit the tone of the movies very well.

[@tigdogsbody]

This is one of your best videos. It is informative and witty; some of your remarks are hilarious. Thank you, Sir.

[@chrisball3778]

When I saw it in the cinema, I was a little confused by the ending of the second fight shown here, due to the way it was edited. I think they had to be careful about how much wound detail they showed in order to get the film passed as a 12A/ PG-13 and keep the teen audience, so it ended up being a little unclear what had happened. It's much more obvious seeing Matt play it back with pauses and commentary. Fantastic films.

[@camilstoenescu]

I don't know about realism, but the first knife duel at the end of Dune part 1 looked really good.

[@titanscerw]

Nope

[@bull614]

To comment on your so-called qualifications. You are far better qualified than you think. I would be willing to put money on the fact that, unlike most, you have probably been in a lot of fights with bladed weaponry, even if it's just sparing. Study is one thing. Putting it into practice is another. I studied military history and tactics when I was a kid. Then I joined the US Marines and found that out lol

[@batbrick3949]

Great analysis, I’m subscribed now. One point though, about the slashing versus thrusting - people will tend to revert to the techniques they were taught, even if those techniques aren’t the most practical for the situation. Feyd was trained mostly for duels in the arena, with little clothing and no armor. So he would instinctively use slashes, even against an opponent with light armor. Paul (in the novel) was taught to cut,not stab, as stabbing “lacks artistry”. In a fight, he would tend to favor what he was taught. The lesson for us all, then, is to be mindful of what we practice, since that will become our habit.

[@thinusconradie4297]

Super informative. Thanks as always. We have been your audience and will, of course, continue to be.

[@szalaierik]

Hey Matt, thanks for doing this breakdown, loved it (as much as the movie). I am a BJJ practitioner and realize the limits of the art, pretty sure all of us do (and they cross-train). I also did HEMA fencing before. The "kick" to the overarm (or the shoulder for the matter) is a thing we do a lot, it is a part of techniques and we learn to do it consistently, i find it perfectly plausible. Also the arm twists are correct imo. I'd do some rolls too :D to retreat or attack from below but would be comical XD Cant wait to try some of these in the summer with my HEMA friends.

[@sparrowhawk81]

Oh I almost forgot about that kick-block! I love that kick-block! Here's why...Paul probably thinks that big wild cut from Feyd is an attempt to get him to take one of his (Paul's) hands off him. Maybe Paul just didn't want to let him get what he wanted. Or perhaps it was sort of "Oh you want to throw something unexpected at me? how's this?" type thing. Love it.

[@balaam_7087]

Never bring your wife to a nun fight.

[@JpnhAbou]

That'd be "weird"(ing)

[@thunder2434]

I saw it as Paul taking Feyds knife in his shoulder disabling it (mostly off camera) while he drew his own Crysk knife out of his own body and thrust it into Feyds gut. You see the gold/ brass metal plate end of Pauls Crysk knife handle sticking out of Feyd, it has the organic shape of the crysk, not the black and angular shape of Feyds knife handle. The light is dim of course so such details are easily overlooked. Just before this Feyds knife slides in Pauls hand. I think Feyds knife is near molecular edge sharp. He even complained earlier it wasn't as sharp as he wanted it even though it cut human flesh with ease. I bet it's not done with a whetstone but a laser. It may also be metallic-looking ceramic and not steel. It'd still sound like steel and ring from blade-on-blade contact and look much like it, as some ceramics do today. With a knife that sharp and glass-like slippery it's like grabbing a shard of glass so it surprisingly slides and cuts paul despite a leather glove. It may explain him trying to slash through Pauls Stillsuit as it just might be able to cut through it. At least in some areas.

[@SpeargrassForge]

As someone that has studied fma as part of my overall martial arts training (and I also do hema) a VERY common misconception is that it contains mainly slashing cuts. This is unequivocally untrue. While initially a student is taught 8 angles of attack, of which 3 are thrusts. As you gain experience, you are taught to thrust those angles both in a regular grip, and in an "ice pick" grip. Most people don't get past the initial training stage to get to espada è daga, or daga training. But there is MUCH more to fma than just slashing

[@brittakriep2938]

A bit out of context. Years ago, when german TV was not 24 hour, at late evening or early afternoon often old black/ white movies with no artistical/ historical importance had been shown. Among them was a mexican movie, about a poor fisherman, who found a large pearl, and got troubles with gangsters. Was from mid 1940s. The Gangsters wore this white suits and hats like Gangsters in US movies, but no snubnose revolvers, fight was done with knives and wrapped left arms.

[@davefletch3063]

Slashes don’t necessarily equate to cutting. In thick clothing or armor the purpose is more like striking and manipulating the limb. A good knife is essentially an iron truncheon when slicing can’t penetrate

[@thunder2434]

Jams final feint is to switch hands behind his back. A trick seen in real combat and I think taught to soldiers in WW2. I've seen it done in historical fencing as well. Paul stepping off line and passing instead of trying to block the attack is both negating what hand Jams holds the knife and Paul finally fighting for real, with full mobility and so he ends it in one final move in a passing stab.

[@rursus8354]

Glad you're still Matt Easton!

[@Ylyrra]

Not a fan of dramatic leg sweeps in fight choreography, but that one was a beaut, it felt like it had good speed and momentum and was timed for maximum surprise. Rewatching the second fight has me appreciating it far more than the initial impression it gave at the cinema... which is an odd failing of film-making to make.

[@thunder2434]

A great video and possibly the most epic comments section ever full of Dune-fanatics just like me. :) Now consider that the Crysk is a crystal (natural ceramic) blade. Imagine how sharp it could be made then, it may just cut through a stillsuit at least in some areas. Now imagine Feyd having also a ceramic metallic-looking knife with similar properties. It's Sci-Fi but not so far fetched from today and though it can't cut the metal bands of Feyds armor it also has flexible areas not covered by lamellar.

As far as I know a Crys is a Shai Hulud teeth..

[@thunder2434]

Yes indeed, but the Worms' teeth are made of a dense very tough crystal, not enamel.

[@somerando1073]

You should check out "King Arthur" 2004. I remember it being pretty good, though it was a long time ago when I knew less. Should be some interesting stuff to pick apart in there.

[@thebladesman]

Yes, the return of the fight breakdown! More, please. Maybe give the fellas at Scenic Fights a call for a collab, haha

[@TheDidYouKnowChannel]

19:45 To your point, it does look like Paul is thrusting (and aiming for the less armored midsection) whereas Feyd is the one mainly slashing and maybe he’s just assuming a metal blade would work well enough against a stillsuit.

[@davefletch3063]

Knives can be hung hilt down with kydex style sheaths. They wont fall out. A primitive version of kydex would be like rawhide

[@lilbaz8073]

It's set thousands of years in the future. Technology able to traverse the galaxy. Pretty sure they could invent a sheath that the knife wouldn't fall out of. Magnetised or whatever.

[@dukefanshawe6815]

I just bought 2 antique swords on your website keep up the awesome work thank you. A french small sword and a spadroon both from the 1700s.

[@TheBaconWizard]

As a sometime D&D DM and sci-fi world-builder, I can find a charitable justification for slashing in this instance: A cut in a still-suit means certain death in the desert, albiet slow.

[@AlekseyVitebskiy]

In the original book both of those fights happen essentially naked. I think they wore a loin cloth or underwear if I remember correctly, but that's it. That's why you keep the water of the person you killed in a duel: you'll need to re-hydrate afterwards. Same went for the gladiatorial battles on Giedi Prime. In duels or show fights the fighters were essentially naked. In that context just slashing can be effective to wear your opponent down. I don't know why they changed it in the movies. It seems that that it would add a bit of flavor, but that's what they did... Maybe Timothée Chalamet just looked too skinny with his clothes off, but he is supposed to be skinny. Feud-Rautha is supposed to be muscular, but Paul is supposed to be wiry. I really hate that they did it. Maybe they trained for a different fight, but then the director decided that it's better for them to put some clothes on. Ha, maybe that's why they look like that. It takes professionals like you to point out the flaws before that kind of stuff starts making sense. Also, it could be that Babs Olusanmokun (the actor who played Jamis) was too muscular. He was supposed to be even skinnier and more wiry than Paul, especially at that stage of the story. Also, the first fight didn't just happen spontaneously. They were in a cave, not outside. The whole thing was very ritualistic in that it was a controlled contest, not just a spur of the moment thing. The second fight is well-communicated in the movie, but the first fight was supposed to be a lot more formal then they showed. Chani was actually Jamis'es wife, and she automatically became Paul's wife after he bested Jamis in the duel, that is the tradition in that world. That got very much whitewashed in the movie, but at least that part makes sense. I don't understand why they didn't have them strip down for the fights. Also, Paul Atreides is supposedly becoming more and more able to predict the future here, so it would look like a training exercise just because he already knew what to do. That is going a bit too far for a "fight analysis", so disregard that one, but that is part of the story. He did just fly through a giant sandstorm in what's basically just a helicopter and survived. There is some supernatural going on here in the end. I guess the TLDR; is that I think the actors trained for one type of fight, but it ended up not looking good on screen, so they put their clothes and armor on. I wouldn't have made sense to rework the whole scene, so they just did the same fights, but with more "stylistic elements".

[@MajAceWhole]

The end of the first fight looks like a sparring drill because that's all it was. The beginning only would have been rough because Paul was unconfident and hesitant to kill. Once Paul knew he was set to win, the entire fight was over, regardless of Jamis' disposition towards the outcome. You simply don't train the blade under Gurney and Duncan and then get merk'd in a 1v1. Hell, Paul was SERIOUSLY considering losing in order to prevent his Holy Excursion from taking place.

[@kennethhorton225]

What you also have to remember with movie sword/knife fights is that you're not trying to kill your opponent. And as such, in an interview I once saw with a stunt Director he explained that: cuts and slashes for safety sake weren't aimed at the body but at the sword and thrusts were aimed in such a way that a block would force the weapon away from any point of contact. Until makeup or special effects took over for the kill or wounding camera shot.

[@sparrowhawk81]

My favorite thing about these two duels is that even if there is more cutting or bigger movements that in a real fight (due to it being choreography and in large part for show), they look like they want to hurt each other (not so much Paul in the first fight as it is his first real fight). Jamis looks very grave and there is no doubt he wants to kill Paul. It looks and feels and sounds (the sounds are brilliant) like there is intent and impact behind the thrusts, blocks, attempts at cutting and and the strikes.

[@Eckister]

personally I feel like the main upside to BJJ in a street fight is pain compliance. you learn to grab and twist an opponents libs and avoid an actually damaging fight (fists/legs/headnuts). naturally when someone attacks you with a knife it becomes pretty useless, but then again - that is true of most unarmed martial arts.

[@extrasmack]

Excellent review and breakdown, Matt. Missed opportunity though. You could have shown one of your antique Moro Kris knives to demo what a historical one actually is as opposed to the film version.

[@VulpeRenard]

11:10 "Trapping is very similar to a lot of Kali drills" (paraphrased) Very much so, referred to as "hubud" drills and can very easily be confused with trapping. You can tell the actors have been trained using those drills from the fight scenes. Also at the mention of Fairbairn-Sykes daggers later; I never watched the original Lynch version of Dune, but I'm pretty sure in that version, all the House Atreides knives are Fairbairn-Sykes daggers.

[@washingtoncommandcenter5541]

I think the Harkonnen blades are Fairbairn-Sykes-inspired ones in the 1984 Dune. Paul fights Sting with the Crysknife that's an upswept, trailing point Persian-inspired "bone"(quill?) knife. There's a Sardaukar General knife in the movie too that's like a Ginunting with a finger ring, and down swept back cross guard that makes it look like a revolver.

[@MrPhantomEd]

Heavy clothes during both duels is a director's reinterpretation. In the book they weren't wearing much (in the first duel - almost nothing). I have to rewatch, but it seems that in a scene where Idaho is fighting against the sardaukar, who have both force fields and armour, he is mostly stabbing, or cutting at close distance, sort of leaning into the cut. P.S. as a former, alas, FMA practitioner, when I first saw Paul making an eskrima salute I was like WOW!!! And then there was the fight. Finally, the correct way!

[@yiarkungfu]

They would have doubled their ticket sales if they'd fought in trunks. Who wouldn't want to see two twinks slipping all over each other, especially the Gen Zs.

[@TrueSighted]

Dude. The people of the Philippines Were fighting against Spaniards for a very long time. Spaniards in armor were one such enemy. Don't underestimate the ability of the FMA to deal with armored opponents. They were developed, and well practiced in resisting the control of armored foes. But as they had many influences in how they developed, and for use against many differing enemies, they were ultimately adapted to play to the peoples strengths, and to be fast, repetitive, immobilizing at times, and agile; As to not be pinned down, and do a lot of damage fast, while living to tell the tale. they would aim for weaknesses, slash where armor didn't cover, or it could create an advantage in some form, and then pierce when an opening could be exploited. The slashing has its purpose, even in fights with armored enemies, As when they were developing, they were not heavily armored like their enemy, and could not just go toe to toe, and blow for blow with their opponents, like they might if they did have as heavy of armor. The Pilipino Martial Arts were designed to make the force they had, the tools available that they could get, as effective against their enemies as possible.

[@danielhurst8863]

A few things are wrong in talking about the duels. The crysknife is essentially unbreakable. "May your knife chip and shatter" is a colloquial expression, not a statement that the knife will actually chip and shatter. It is saying you are going to die, but put up a good fight. The first duel has to fighters with wildly different goals. Paul doesn't want to kill, but he could literally end the fight with a mortal blow anytime he wants. Jamis is insulted that he "allowed such a weak young person" to disarm him, thus causing him shame in front of the tribe. Jamis thought Paul got lucky, and Jamis thought he could win the duel, until in understood he could not win, under any circumstances. The first duel itself is thus built on a foundation of spectacle. It wouldn't be enough for Jamis to quickly kill Paul, Jamis needs to show off. Paul doesn't want to kill Jamis so he exaggerates his movements. Remember, even Jamis can move at incredible speed compared to a normal human. Even the best knife fighters in the Universe can't normally go toe to toe with a Fermen. In the final duel, Paul and Feyd-Rautha are the two best knife fighters in the known universe, and both can move and do things no ordinary human can do, so that has to be taken into account in the duel. At the end, Paul doesn't stab Feyd-Rautha with the gripped knife, but with Paul's knife in Paul's right hand.

[@anthonywestbrook2155]

This is more complicated than a simple review, but I would love to see how you would make a sword fight version of my favorite fight scene of all time. I'm talking about the Robert Downy Jr's bare knuckles fight in Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes. The reason I love the scene so much is that it gets around the classic problem of fight choreography, that you've talked about many times. Normally, a realistic fight between skilled fighters still looks sloppy, and is hard for the audience to follow, let alone gain any understanding of plot or character development. So I'd love to see you choreograph a short, skillful sword fight, with the slow-mo version giving you time to explain the nuances involved, and then the full speed version still showing all of the things you described in the blink of an eye. (If anyone else feels like taking a stab at this, please reply to this post with your results!)

[@MrJakedog104]

The duel from The King is a fantastic example of armored longsword fighting. You should definitely do a video on it!

[@marcondespaulo]

In the first clip, the fist movement Paul (?) - the white guy in black gear, looks a lot like one the abbreviated saltures I learned when learning FMA.

[@smithryansmith]

Theres a short swordfight in the animated film "Fire and Ice" (1983?). It is rotoscoped so looks like people actually fighting. What I remember most is that it successfully uses a feignt clearly. Its quite cool and I think worth a review. The clip is on youtube.

[@michelemalbano]

Great video! I trained some knife fighting, I was not-so-bad, but you would absolutely *destroy* me

[@lawrenceschuman5354]

In the book when Paul fights Jaimis they both strip down to just underwear. Part of the justification for claiming the loser's water (it went to the winner, not the communal cistern - water is money, among other things, in Fremen society) is compensation for the loss of moisture while not wearing the stillsuit.

[@friedfish69]

Phillipines no armor, Europe gambuson. Wear padded clothing in the Phillipines and the heat will get you before the blade. Do without padded clothing in Europe, and the cold will get you before the blade. Armor requires money, but clothing choice is life or death outside of combat. By the way, if I remember the books correctly, the civilized folk all had magical technology armor which prevented fast strikes and projectiles from penetrating. Smooth, slippery attacks, slow enough to get through the armor, we're used.

[@shinomori69]

I was just wondering if Matt was going to comment on the Ultimate Self Defense Challenge! These were great because they did the most important thing in a fight scene. They tell the story. The mix of good solid techniques (stabs, kimura's/figure four armlock) mixed with over the top jump spins.

[@Na_Picta_Irskr]

Would love to see videos of these Italian close fighting techniques you've mentioned. Also always down for more movie fight reviews, Rob Roy or any others.

[@titanscerw]

Matt already did Rob Roy, I think. +][+

[@Na_Picta_Irskr]

@titanscerw yeah but he mentioned on the video possibly revisiting it, and I'm all for that. Lol

[@rokka7188]

It depends how much you'd stab, like for example Finnish Härmä, 'knife junkers' who had duels with puukkos, they liked to slash and cut. This was mostly to avoid the charges of murder, as it may have been a honorary or 'blood' duel of some kind. And this might end up with cut body parts or pieces, but with local folk healers, probably wasn't lethal. Though there's some which use specific techniques, that could paralyze someone, like a cut to the spine, be unable to work anymore. I think in-terms of viking duels, they could end up in death or forfeit, but preferably you would want to win without killing, not having any blood feuds or such. They knew the deadlier attacks were stabs and specifically to the stomach, for example.

[@GreatistheWorld]

I’d love a look at other fights from the new Dune movies- and consider a review of the many interesting blade designs in Pt 2, their origins and feasibility in-world. Maybe take a look at the knife fight in the 2021 West Side Story. It’s interesting cinematically, it feels dangerous

[@niscent_]

actually at the end of the fight between paul and feyd. paul does not turn feyd's blade against him, he deviate it to take the stab in his shoulder, while he stabs feyd with his other hand using his knife. this ending of the fight is about the deception and grit necessary to pull it off, he grabs the blade and stays in that vulnerable position as a distraction to remove his own knife that is stabbed in his side and then stab feyd. at this point in the story, paul likely sees pretty far into the future, and he probably accepted beforehand that he was gonna get stabbed to win.

[@lukeman9851]

As you mentioned, the choreography is primarily from Kali, but it may be worth mentioning that the salute the Atreides do with their blades is also a Kali thing

[@Kaiyanwang82]

Each time the whole theatre was silent. What these duels have, too, is that you feel part of the fremen or other bystanders watching.

[@davidhonaker519]

HAAAaa I love that mat is noting almost exactly what Paul does about the knife at the beginning of the dual. I'm assuming he's not read the books.

[@mrleenudler]

The crysknife terminology hails from Frank Herbert's original series. Not sure the FMA link is valid.

[@davidioanhedges]

The crysknife is made from a sandworm tooth ... and is an Original Frank Herbert name But it was probably named by him after the Kris ... But the ones in the film don't match the book description very well The ones in the book are are stabbing weapons ... The knife that Paul was trained with were slashing weapons All knives in the books are often poisoned In the books nobody wears actual armour ... either they use holtzmann shields and ordinary clothes, or still suits ... all the fighting styles require full movement, and the weapons used will either go through any armour as if it wasn't there, or layers of clothing will do almost as well

[@amriksinghtziripouloff8627]

I suppose that you want first to survive in the fight, not only to kill the ennemy so if you commit strongly in a thrust nothing prevent the adversary to thrust back in turn even if the stab wound is deadly: The fight finish with both fighters death. So I will prioritize slashing to the hands and face, commiting strongly in a stab only if the adversay knife hands is neutralized or competely out of position. For self-defense, the goal is to neutralise the attacker much more than to kill him. What is working for sparing is not necessarily what we want to do for self defence.

[@MaartenSFS]

I would love to see an overview of the main historical treatises that cover the dagger, as well as extent systems. I have never heard of an extent Spanish system and I live in Spain, so I’d love to learn more!

[@jamestipton7872]

good looking bowie knife ya got there. couldn't help but notice the Spanish notch. I have one very similar with a Spanish notch as well. always wondered what it was for.