Swords Were NOT Primary Weapons | Medieval Warfare Myths Debunked With Weapons Expert Matt Easton

[@scholagladiatoria]

A fun chat! Thanks for having me on.🤘

[@beowulf.reborn]

If you have fabric on the outside of your steel armor, and wet it, then as it evaporates it will draw all of the heat out from within, and your damp undergarments will become very cool. This is why water canteens have fabric on the outside of them. So you can wet it, and cool the water inside as the fabric dries.

[@RKarmaKill]

And for camouflage/grip

[@darthkek1953]

I'm a great fan of Matt Easton (many of us are) but can I thank James for not doing what so many modern interviewers do and interrupt their guest every few words. James was willing to listen and to give time to the person being interviewed.

[@marcelomariano3586]

Exactely !

[@ddddd9665]

I came here to say the same thing. He clearly had a guest that was very knowledgeable and passionate about the subject, so he just let him talk without interjecting.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

Really grateful for the host letting Matt give long-form answers withouth interrupting. It really ups the quality of the content. Wouldn't have visited this channel if it weren't for the choice of guest.

[@CaptainBanjo-fw4fq]

Count my comment as an immature like - not going to ruin the 69…giggity.

[@garethfergusson9538]

Matt Easton is everywhere recently it's great

[@ndwilcock6575]

I love hearing people talk about subjects in which they are genuine experts. Matt Easton - brilliant as usual but the interviewer, excellent work allowing Matt to talk without asking inane questions.

[@Dominator046]

Here from Matt's social media. Glad to see Times Radio History have him on.

[@JamesMcCloskey]

Always great to have Matt Easton! 🗡🛡

[@loudradialem5233]

2:49 Myth 1: Heavy armor is heavy 12:00 Myth 2: Swords were primary weapons 23:16 Myth 3: Soldiers' clothes were dreary 30:35 Myth 4: No medieval firearm and once invented armor became useless 44:02 Myth 5: Archers could shoot through armor

[@F4R4D4Y]

Thanks for the time stamps.

[@loganross1861]

Bless you 🙏

[@DanielGreen-j4c]

Captain Context strikes again! Bravo

[@Ralf.Rutkat]

Always great to see a passionate knowledgeable expert bringing history alive. Great job Matt

[@Farweasel]

Thanks Matt - You just caused me to realise WHY the Spanish 'Conquistador' metal hats were the shape they were A low velocity bullet's more likely to skate off a helmet which looks like a pointy ship's prow than one which looks like Endevour's 🤔

[@DerrillGuilbert]

I've been following Matt for years ... 5 years? Maybe longer, and I still learned stuff watching this. I love it. Definitely going to look at more of your videos and see if there are things that interest me.

[@waynemitchell8254]

Matt is a national treasure and should be knighted

[@yoavedelist6173]

That is a brilliant idea.

[@AlexKowalski-ci6im]

Absolutely BRILLIANT, this chat. Thank's a lot to James Hanson and especially to Matt Easton. It provided me with so many interesting coherences and insights about medieval warfare, and myth debunking too of course 😉.

[@galadballcrusher8182]

Great vid, very comprehensive info spread over multiple subjects pertaining period warfare and it's perception or depiction accuracy. Largely because apart of the level of expertise of the guest - and Matt is beyond just educated and informed on the scholarly lvl also crossing into experimental archeology field because he is versed in use of said weapons being a HEMA practitioner as well instructor for years, but also because of the competence of host who did not constantly interupt with inane questions or comments just to denote their presence but let his expert guest present his diatribe on each subject questioned about in the extent required.

[@colinellis5243]

An excellent session by a brilliant true historian, I say "true" because Matt researches primary sources and actually experiments within his field of significant expertise!

[@maaderllin]

23:30 "(...) Gaudy contrasting colors. And very often they would specifically NOT color match things." This is why I had my HEMA protection gear made with a gold and blue jacket, and red and green padded pants. :)

[@PlatinumRotsu]

Period Accurate Blinger, thumbs up!

[@martinahager4931]

Please Continue like this. Wonderful.Maybe more graphic examples.

[@FoardenotFord]

Matt is the man, always love to get his wisdom.

[@grantcox4764]

Great video, great guest.

Very intersting that there were layered armor designs hundreds of years ago.

[@Arminius420]

I always thought spears were the most used weapons. They were cheaper to make and you can use them from a safer distance as well as throw them.

[@matthewmillar3804]

The way I look at sword and armour affordability would be car and house, respectively. Some people can only afford a run down apartment, others a mansion on the shore. Some people can only afford a rusty chevy, others a Ferrari. But go back far enough in history and cars are so rare that only the rich could afford them. No idea if that's right, but that's how I see it. 🤔

[@ThisIsNotAUsername-v3o]

Your analogy is good; any random blacksmith could make "a sword". It's not that hard an idea. But one that's made by a dedicated weaponsmith, that's fitted for the wielder, made out of good steel, with professional fittings and a professionally-made hilt... both of them would be effective weapons, and much better than nothing. Swords did appear widely throughout most of recorded history, though. About 60% of mined copper was mined with hand tools. We think of mining as needing deep holes today, because all the easy surface metal has already been mined; some of it for thousands of years.

[@thelonelybolter8245]

Matt Easton GOAT ;)

[@PalleRasmussen]

Many campaigns in Scandinavia and the Baltic region were fought during winter, so you could traverse frozen rivers instead of undeveloped roads.

[@interdictr3657]

Thanks for a information packed long video. Great!

[@raginasiangaming910]

From contemporary works, the sword was used quite a bit up until the middle/late medieval period. For example, William Marshal's biographer describes him as using his sword quite a bit. However, its also quite clear that the sword was probably the third most important skill of a knight after couched lancing and horsemanship. The popularity in hooked polearms seems to correlate roughly with knights adding more plates to their armor. This makes sense as the hook was an effective way to pull a plate armored warrior from his saddle and, once grounded a killing blow could be delivered. This strategy is described in by many contemporaries and it makes sense. I do think the sword remain popular for mounted knights, due to its ease of wield from horseback and its reach. However, amongst dismounted knights we started to see more polaxes and other such two-handed weapons.

[@BogdanBaudis]

The knights, officers, centurions, jarls, housecarls etc. etc. were most surely NEVER in the majority of the soldiers. Napoleonic infantry officers frequently rode horses and neither had muskets nor pikes but they had sabres, pistols. But the cavalry man had lances, pistols and only after that they used their sabres. Hoplites primaries were spear and shield, xiphos was a backup weapon. Vikings used primarily spears and axes. Etc, etc, etc ...

[@SaanMigwell]

@@BogdanBaudis Romans used the gladius, but it was the secondary weapon. Javelin/spears were the primary weapons, the gladius was the backup. Large pitched and prolonged melee battles are mostly myth. Static frontline rotations are the reality of prolonged battles even in the modern age. The all out melee is usually only the last five or ten minutes of any ancient battle, and it only happens if one side can envelope the other via one of the three classic maneuvers.

[@BogdanBaudis]

@@SaanMigwell Looks we are in agreement in the primary vs. secondary. The all-out infantry melee might have been short BUT they usually resulted in the most casualties and most likely were fought with secondary weapons (a short knife is much better that a spear if you can touch your opponent). The cavalry battles are different stores, they might have been a series of dynamic forth-and-back engagements fought over large distances with pursuits and turn-around. The 16th through 18th century battles in Central and South-Eastern Europe involving Polish, Tatar and later Russian and Cossack cavalries were frequently of that type. A decisive pitched battle there usually was a result of tactical or strategic mistake on at least one side.

[@soupordave]

Captain Context!

[@danielgoode2782]

The host quickly got that face you get when you politely ask how someone is, then have to sit through them, giving you a full in-depth breakdown of everything thats happend them and their extended family over the last 6 months. I do love Matts passionate ramblings, though.

[@CraigSteele12]

Disagree. I think he was fully engaged and letting Matt keep on with the knowledge bombs without interruption.

[@danielgoode2782]

@CraigSteele12 I appreciate him giving Matt the opportunity to fully answer the questions. I didn't mean it as a reflection on Matt, I'm a subscriber to his channel. It's just that he acknowledges himself that he doesn't always keep things very short. I wondered how long the host had pencilled in for the video.

[@scottsammons7747]

​​@@CraigSteele12, the cocked head, half lidded eyes, occasionally slack jaw expression isn't the approach usually taught in communications classes. Head bobbing not withstanding.

[@redboomer1970]

I was in the SCA. My chainmail shirt weighed 22 pounds. 1 I could put it on and take it off by myself with no help. 2. I often wore it all day. 3. Chainmail is very comfortable and does not chaff. I would wear a T-shirt underneath it. 4. I would compete in archery competitions wearing my armour with only a minor performance hit.

[@josephkavanagh7055]

At Agincourt, many of the knights got slowed down by the mud and their horses weren't so well protected. Once unhorsed, they too would be mired down by the mud, especially if there was a high clay content in the earth there.

[@thefatefulforce8887]

Great video guys.

[@MarcRitzMD]

Why didn't you use your great wireless mic, Matt!

[@keyenbentley8179]

I love both these channels 🙏

[@dominicnzl]

16:36 looks like the crossbowstring will lob off his thumb when he looses the bolt

[@yoavedelist6173]

Love Matt, loved watching this.

[@enak413]

Speaking of swords as a primary weapon ... I always thought it strange that in movies I watched growing up ... the Three Musketeers were always fighting their enemies with swords . I don't seem to recall seeing them ever shoot anyone with muskets.

[@marcelomariano3586]

Great video, Matt, as always !!! 😊

[@Fundas-bikes]

Absolutely loved this, talk about the ancient sling! It's hard to find information about it, I would love to know more about the historical facts regarding the slings

[@cal2127]

theres actually a good channel on ancient slinging

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Read Jean Froissart for examples of slingers in medieval warfare. They saw use in large numbers & had some success.

[@Fundas-bikes]

@@cal2127 thanks!

[@Fundas-bikes]

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 thanks!

[@Fundas-bikes]

@@cal2127 Wai bro, what's the name of the channel?

[@DamonCaudillEdenNatual]

Slingers shift from ground to more Navy battles but the last time slingers where used in a tru military engagement was 2016 as a delivery device to improvised fair bombs and grenades .

[@JoeFreeman-y2d]

very interesting and informative. a couple of things zid liked to have asked.... 1 Its my understanding from some reading on the subject that slingers were not generally employed in Europe during the middle ages is that a great deal of practice was required for acslinger to become accurate. uniformity in shape and weight was also necessary . less practicecand greater uniformity in the missile was possible for archers although it was still a fair amount. A practiced longbowman also had a high rste of fire and if the longbowmen were massed with proper protectionbandvselected terrain in front of them the arrow storms they could produce against mounted knightscor lightly or unarmored infantry were devastating. Crecy and Agincourt being two examples. 2. its my understanding that the composite bow used bythe mongols and later by the Tatars had a very high velocity and considerable effective range and generallyvwere capable ofcachieving penetration of justvabout anyvarmor in usecduring theircera including thecPersian heavy cavalary and the cataphracts of Byzantium. The eastern horsemen were also quitexaccurstecwith a high r as te of fire from horseback. is the foregoing true? 3The crossbow became popular becsusevthey eventuallyvused metal boltsvhad high velocity and less practicecwas required tobachieve accuract.zthecdisadvantagecwas typically a very low rate of fire due to the cranking time andcstrength requred. They were not particularly effective from horseback. is this true? 4. its my understanding that generally t steel quality of most Western swords was rather low The swords were prone to break or shatter on severe impact. They were not constructedcwith thexsame layered ste we l as the katana. Hence during the age of plst therevwas a tendency for mounted knights to favor weapons such as maces and morning stars which in the hands of the mounted knight could inflictvblows csusing broken bones concussions etc thst were incapacitating. While generally the bludgeon weapons could nit cave in a breast plate they could inflict serios injuries on head and limbs even thruvarmor whie a sword could not. is this true? . 😮

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

"How do you know he's a King?" "Well, he's not covered in mud"

[@DanielAluni-v2t]

I would imagine that throughout the non-firearm eras, spears/pikes/javelin type weapons in hand to hand engagements would dominate. Axes, swords, and the like seem to be backup for when, 'all the spears have been broken' and the battle has entered the desperation phase.

[@OceanusHelios]

When it is armies vs armies, pole arms and bows make much more sense than swords in warfare or castle defense. The Romans could rely on their gladius more, but they had developed special techniques to give it the advantage. It required tight teamwork, and they still used their pole arms too.

[@darylwilliams7883]

If I had to learn one weapon that crosses geography, time and culture, I would learn spear-fighting. Maybe archery, which I do but not well.

[@oldroanio5631]

Remember: Changing to your secondary weapon is always faster than reloading.

[@robertvecchiarello4863]

Firearms were probably effective at spooking horses on the battlefield. Disrupting enemy cavalry advancing on archers.

[@SaanMigwell]

It's so weird. I was taught this in elementary school, it's ruined almost every hollywood try at big battles. Another misconception is the giant melee. Never happened, armies taunted each other until one them was surrounded and then either surrendered or ran away.

[@sanjivjhangiani3243]

At the Battle of Agincourt, the English lost 2500 men. The French lost 15,000. Although a lot of those casualties were from arrows, there must have been a fair amount of melee fighting.

[@juanzulu1318]

Very interesting content. Thx

[@gen.aladeenhandsome3101]

Actually in early medieval peroid 10th, 11th and12th century swords are common to use in battle because majority of soldiers in that time use leather or padded armor, only nobles and rich soldiers has acces to chainmail armor because of their financial status.

[@MbisonBalrog]

A spear is like Garand in WW2. The sword like Tommy gun. Or for Brits, Lee Enfield and Sten. Both spear and sword had roles.

[@F4R4D4Y]

Great stuff!

[@fallskjermjeger.]

Too bad they didn't show the kind of Japanese armor Matt was actually talking about

[@AnonYmous-be9vw]

Checked out some real swords at a pawn shop the other day. They were metal, heavy, sharp, and very lethal.

[@BigAl53750]

I’m thinking of Ned Kelly; Australian 19th century outlaw, who famously wore armour and was only overpowered by the Police shooting his legs and disabling him that way.

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

Why think about Ned Kelly when Margo Robbie exists? Strange choice

[@dalerobinson8051]

Swords are required in movies for the knock down, drag out fight between the hero and the villain. A bow and arrow fight wouldn't work nor halberds, etc., either. Over too quickly. Great video. Liked the part about colorful Middle Ages. In movies, everyone's covered in mud and it's always raining or about to. That's why they were called the Dark Ages!😆

[@user-wb7nv9ht1g]

What happens if you get an itch under the tight fitting armour? That's freaking me out and making me itchy.

[@bernieeod57]

Actually, the spear is a rifle, the sword the equivalent of the pistol, and the fighting knife the dagger

[@AllanDeGroot]

Medieval NAVAL warfare ended with the battles the English had against the Spanish Armada, when the Spanish showed up with portable castles and boarding parties, while the English came with their "Razed galleons" and standardized artillery equipped to fight an artillery duel and shoot the Spanish ships out from under them.

[@PJ-jz5fm]

I would personally choose a pike for any battle situation.

[@LaneLibra]

Its quite lovely seeing things that us "community of the sword" folks have known for years being given to potentially a new audience. 🤙

[@jukkakopol7355]

In Finland in medieval churches fist room is called asehuone (weapons room) so even in periferia weapons are so common that there must be regulations of those. Ok we were on borders between katholic and ordotox churces and we baltic sea was like it is nowadays a boiling gaultron of troubles. Vitali brotherood and grusader knights and Hansa and danes and swedes and before mongols northern silkroad going thru.

[@NathanDudani]

*cauldron

[@Michael-jx9bh]

Colors: Yes, I'm a real Viking in my fantasy game! I color my gear (when possible) in bright contrasting colors, it's so beautiful! Yes, there accounts from people meeting merchant Vikings where they make note of the colorful clothing. Yellow, blue, red, green, black, white all made from either plants or minerals. I've personally seen yellow and green plant color being made (the smell aint nice btw).

[@guygibson1957]

Really interesting.

[@physiocrat7143]

Titanium would be good for armour but you would have to buy it by mail order.

[@wyrdo7499]

All Englishmen should be Robin Hood.

[@stephenconnolly3018]

First rate talk with a true expert in their battle field.

[@joeelliott2157]

So the Green Knight was a myth. It would have been the Red / Green / Yellow Knight who kept his head throughout the battle.

[@darthkek1953]

Perhaps being monochromatic the Green Knight stood out as cursed by Morgana Le Fey?

[@Levitt777]

Spear, Hammer ,long knife in that order... axe's were exceptional but they get stuck in bodies

[@marcocatano554]

Fascinating!

[@larryyoung5757]

How did they reload a crossbow on horseback?

[@lewis7315]

The French era Charles Martel 700+- used the battle ax whose name is where we get the name French or France.

[@Eris123451]

Everybody knows that, swords were not the primary weapons of medieval warfare. The primary weapons of medieval warfare were peasants, (which is to say the working classes,) and on the whole nothing much has changed.

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

How do you know everybody? I’m somebody and I’ve never met you.

[@Eris123451]

@@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549 Fair cop.

[@JM-ik9kw]

Very interesting. What about the economic factor? I guess that with the amount of iron/steel you need to craft a sword, you can instead build several spear heads. And that might be a critical factor when you have to arm an army. I guess that's also a reason why the sword has that sort of symbolic value and is associated with royalty and knights.

[@guygibson1957]

Any Battle of Agincourt analysis has to take into account that although the French knights were well covered against the longbow, their horses were less protected. Any info on horse armour Matt?

[@duchessskye4072]

Horse armour was not that common and most knights/men-at-arms would've not had barding. The ones who did would've had principally leather, with only a minority having something like mail. Plate barding in 1415 would've been exceedingly rare even among people with barding.

[@awilk418]

The cavalry charge was not the decisive portion of the battle at Agincourt though. The main French battle line advanced on foot after the initial disastrous cavalry charge.

[@scholagladiatoria]

The French had learned at Crecy and other earlier battles that cavalry charges against archers behind wooden stakes was a recipe for disaster, so they looked to other plans. The English archers traditionally deployed sharpened wooden stakes in front, exactly to protect from a cavalry charge. At Agincourt most of the French army fought on foot as a result, but there was a cavalry attack which was supposed to flank around the sides of the English army. This did not work because of the land chosen by Henry V, and that is partly why we have this scene in Shakespeare of the French cavalry attacking the English baggage/camp. Horse armour was a thing, but was expensive and restrictive for the horse, reducing their speed and increasing the amount of time it took to deliver a charge. That said, the French DID use armoured cavalry (Italian mercenaries) later on, against English archers, to great effect. It seems that barded/armoured-horse cavalry was highly effective against archers, but it was a huge and expensive resource to muster.

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

Full armored cataphracts were rare because of how expensive they were to equip and how heavy, immobile the horse would end up that the cavalryman would only be good for delivering shock and nothing else. By having a well armored rider and an unarmored horse you could still do cavalry duties like screening, scouting, skirmishing to some extend. Most western euro man at arms were actually medium cavalry, not the fully barded cataphract type.

[@johnkessler9878]

How could knights wear armor in the Holy Land? Seems it would be unbearable.

[@rogerwood4846]

how many soldiers in a medieval army would have a full plate armour harness?

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

42

[@TheLoyalOfficer]

Were the bright colors to help identify people on the battlefield?

[@hishamg]

That too, but mainly because they liked bright colours. Also brighter, more vibrant and more varied colours may also be a sign of wealth and status. It’s interesting that monks, who took vows of poverty, usually wore black or grey habits.

[@fiddleback1568]

I think saying primary weapons is over analyzing it. I believe it depended on the situation.

[@duchessskye4072]

I do not quite like the comparison of swords to pistols. A pistol is in the modern army not all too important - some armies don't standard issue pistols at all and there's rarely a situation in which a pistol serves better than a rifle. This is absolutely not the case with swords in medieval combat, of which all available sources tells us that they were expected to be used in more or less any engagement.They might be secondary weapons in that they're usually not what you go into the fight holding but regardless the expectation that you will lose/break/drop your primary arm and draw your sword is essentially always there without fail. Not only that, but the fighting getting so intense as to breaking your backup weapons is also expected. Knights usually carry two swords (one on the person and one on the saddle) and Pietro Monte suggests that on top of this also carrying two maces. Juan Quijada de Reayo in _Doctrina del Arte de la Cavallería_ shares his weapon progression preference which goes lance > estoc > arming sword > mace > dagger (with the statement that you move on to the next weapon when the previous breaks). This is why soldiers are almost invariably required to come armed with swords in equipment statutes of the time. They're expected to need them. That is why, if I am to give a modern analogue I'd call a polearm something like an MBT and a sword something like an IFV. Both are necessary as they both serve different roles and neither is more important than the other as they both contribute to a whole doctrine of engagement.

[@crimsoncrusader4829]

Or swords as Carbine/assault rifle and Polearm as MMG or mortar.

[@fridrekr7510]

Yes swords are more comparable to carbines or assault rifles. Most modern soldiers don’t rely on ARs as their primary weapon either, even in the infantry it’s typically AR + role specific weapon/equipment. I don’t understand why you want to compare hand weapons and vehicles though.

[@duchessskye4072]

@@fridrekr7510 mostly because I couldn't think of a better comparison, and imo the comparison fits on a different scale with the same underlying principle of utilizing several tools for the job.

[@breakerdawn8429]

Your analysis is so good actually

[@adamjd7645]

Ok, amend it to "a pistol IN CQB." If I'm going room to room, I want my pistol as a secondary. 🤷‍♂️

[@fyodor8008]

Swords were not primary weapons because they were the most fragile, very expensive, and largely ineffective against heavy armour. In the hands of an ordinary footman, any other weapon is more effective as a primary. A spear has more range, and the spear was used in battle before the shortsword/longsword was drawn as a backup. Clubs, maces, and axes are more effective against armour. The sword's main advantage was that it was relatively lightweight, which allowed it to be fast and defensive. I'd wager that even if I had a quality sword back in medieval times, I would attach it to the end of a stick to make a polearm.

[@Vendell_23]

Daggers, poleaxe and warhammer was the go to weapon when fighting on foot

[@chengkuoklee5734]

Correction- dagger is backup weapon, not primary pick.

[@duchessskye4072]

Warhammers are absolutely not a go-to weapon when fighting on foot and we don't see them carried by footsoldiers almost ever - nor do we have sources implying they were popular picks even for knights when on foot.

[@jannarkiewicz633]

Another of my channels. Epic

[@panagioti6371]

I don't understand how you'd use a sword in a formation with mostly spear users? Like everyone has a spear, yours breaks, so now you pull out your sword and do what? Aren't you at such a major reach disadvantage like what are you gonna even do?

[@therealmiddy]

Protect the flank of the spearman to your right.

[@joshm3484]

A weapon that you can hang at your side? Like, a side arm?

[@palmer3977]

Brilliant.

[@showze21]

excellent

[@HawkmanWalker]

Matt: "lets look at medieval art" The show: *shows a 19th century painting*

[@AliDixon95]

50 mins of nodding your head in agreement is crazy stuff

[@darthkek1953]

I liked he respected Matt enough to listen without feeling the obligation to interrupt. But yes, having to nod all the time to keep his camera feed "active" was noticeable. ;-)

[@Mulberry2000]

most fights to do not end on the ground , that is a myth. Only people who have never seen fights say that. most fights are ambushes. A guy not paying attention to his surroundings all of a sudden gets a smack in the face. Most fights are over within 30 seconds because of that. Brazilian jujitsu is the only sport that spreads the rumour that fights end up on the ground. When i did judo, it has a ground fightin component but no one said go to the ground as a your first port of call. BJJ do that very fast and that is dangerous. If a fight goes beyond the first few punches it does end up in a wrestling match, and most like a gang fight at that stage. As other people join because the two fighter are not aware of them. You do not want to end up on the ground in a street fight ever.

[@springbloom5940]

Pretty much up until firearms took over, the battlefield was dominated by a club and a pointy stick

[@Kadesbattleground]

Genoese crossbowmen would stake their pavise shield down and fire from behind it.

[@ericshutter5305]

any battlefield RANGE wins ... so swords do not.

[@adcaptandumvulgus4252]

Swords are the pistols of the medieval world in my not so humble opinion.

[@andreaurelius45]

Spears R U L E I can take any 3 swordsmen at the S A M E time with a spear. P. E. R. I. O. D.

[@gregwasserman2635]

Well, Thor used a hammer not a sword...

[@TCR128]

Love it.

[@HobieH3]

8:24 Zac!

[@martinhg98]

If i think robin hod i think bow and arrow

[@justdl]

Metal on stick is the best.