Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage? The Science

[@Foster_B]

This video still wouldn’t be his most controversial if he did one on disc vs rim brakes.

[@fastercyclist4657]

Unfortunately very true 😂

[@sillem4337]

Durianrider would loose 3 different keyboards in the process of commenting...

[@sergioandresverdugomontene6150]

hhahaha

[@JamesHuxford]

You monster

[@mrnobody9821]

Discs are better

[@valentindelapena7333]

The politicization of these issues often prevents people from talking about them in the first place. Thank you for coming at this from an objective angle, when the majority of content about this issue is highly emotional and opinion based. Perspectives like yours, and obviously more research, are sorely needed

[@rubusspectabilis9877]

A Brooks Secondary School Career Coordinator, and City Councillor called out for transphobic speech in Powell River, BC, Canada. Article: cortescurrents.ca/powell-river-city-councillor-called-out-for-transphobic-speech/ Video of speech: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6apdqNjoK6bppY

[@djcamembert100]

Perhaps we should see the "men category" as an "open category" with any men and trans(women/men),even women if they wish, able to participate, and leave the women category alone ? That's what seems the most logical after seeing this video. Great treatment of the subject :)

[@TheMateyl]

Like Strava

[@carlos_chen]

That idea defeats the notion of men and women are equal, isn't it? what you are saying is .... leave the weaker women alone and compete amongst themselves and if they are good enough they can compete with men?

[@dpstrial]

There should be a Y-chromosome category and a non-Y-chromosome category.

[@dpstrial]

@@carlos_chen You are right. Women insist they are the equal of men, until it does not suit them.

[@wibblemu9]

@@carlos_chen you realize that we already recognize that there are differences right? That's why there's been gender categories in sports for years now. You're equivocating what the word "equal" means. Men and women are equal because we shouldn't discriminate against people only based on their gender or other immutable characteristics, but obviously different people, and different groups of people are better or worse at different things.

[@oliver960]

Dylan, you're actually performing an impressive service here: by presenting a highly controversial topic in a relentlessly balanced manner, you've started what appears to be (as of August 11th anyway!) a healthy discussion about it. This is not an easy problem to solve, but perhaps through fact-based dialogues like this, some clear answer will emerge in our future. Now for your next video, let's see if you can do the same for the US Presidential election 😂

[@bcwbcw3741]

I think Dylan has missed important points because he is thinking about male-to-female transgendered people as men who have become women. The problem with this thinking comes down to the question of what makes a person male or female. People are enormously genetically variable. The genes on the Y chromosome only shift the relative amounts and timing of testosterone & estrogen which in turn interact with a host of developmental pathways that affect different systems in the body whose response is in turn affected by gene variation. The result is big variations in physical development. An indicator of this is that sex can not be determined from physical characteristics in almost a percent of babies. When this happens, the norm now is to wait until the child indicates what sex its brain is. The development of the brain is even more complicated so that a woman can indeed be born in a man's body and visa versa. This is usually the result of a particular combination of normal genes, not a result of genetic damage or wrong chromosome pairings. Genetic variability also gives us people like Michael Phelps with huge feet and wingspan and floppy flexible joints that allow him to swim exceptionally well. I will never win against that body no matter how much I train. Elite athletes are all the products of the extremes of population distributions. Why is it more unfair for me to lose to a trans person than to a Michael Phelps? Dylan starts by assuming trans women are men but they are not - the insistence that they are is a product of his cultural views. This same issue shows up in the case of women with naturally high testosterone levels who are currently suffering from the insane requirement that the IOC has imposed that they take hormones to shift away from their natural levels. What right does the IOC to say some genetic variations are OK and others are not? It is also wrong to use averages to compare performance - elite sports is all about people at the edge of the distribution and male-female differences are meaningless unless compared to the distribution widths. Another question not considered is things like puberty blockers and ages of transition. As trans people become more accepted as children, the physical differences from hormone levels are also going to become smaller over time. Fairness in sport is a thorny question that depends on who you want it to be fair for. Personally, I think Michael Phelps should have be required to wear a burka and boots when he swam. Yeah, he'd still beat me.

[@moritzf2211]

@@bcwbcw3741 You are bringing up a very interesting point. I absolutely agree that it is a thorny question, I also suspect that there is no golden solution to this problem. I want to argue that if you group female athletes into to categories, cis- and trans-women, and you compare the two groups, you can scientifically prove, that there is a statistically significant difference between the athletic performance of those categories, so if you mix athletes from both categories, one group (trans-women) will have a statistically significant advantage (meaning the competition is not fair). Of course the difference between single individuals withing one category, e.g. the difference between you and Michael Phelps, can be way bigger the the differences between topnotch trained athletes from different categories, but this is completely normal and would be expected when looking at the outliers of normal distributions.

[@fastleopard1]

Agreed

[@tgoods5049]

@@bcwbcw3741 "The development of the brain is even more complicated so that a woman can indeed be born in a man's body and visa versa." ... That is a talking point of the radical left wing in order to create other victim group to profit from. That is not science. You can pretend to be whatever you want to be, but don't call it "science".

[@bcwbcw3741]

@@tgoods5049 No, it's biology. You don't know a damn thing about science and your confidence comes from your social beliefs rather than your understanding. Let's go back to the 0.7% of babies born with ambiguous physical sexual parts - genitalia and body morphology with a mix or combination of partially or fully developed male and female physical characteristics. At one time, surgery was done on those babies based on their XY/XX typing and/or what more typical sex organs were most straightforwardly constructed surgically. This was a disaster- the children had brains with a clear idea of what their sex was and that often did not match the surgeon's best guess. Brains have a sex that is determined by pathways associated with brain development in the same way that the rest of the the body has multiple pathways for sexual physical characteristics. These variations are not rare, they are as common as red hair or autism. I bring them up because they illustrate that when the physical characteristics are not clear the brain still is.

[@LarsRR]

You are one of the few KZbinr‘s to touch on such a redbutton topic, and not make a political campaign out of it. Kudos, as always!

[@Bendwow]

That's because using common sense and basic biology doesn't make it political. Only the people who care about feelings over facts and science make it a political stance.

[@lhd9979]

thanks for addressing such a topic with science and not with prejudices!

[@Bendwow]

Using science, basic biology and common sense to state facts isn't prejudice. Don't get caught in all the misinformation certain political agendas are forcing.

[@jms0313]

“Prejudices?” as in understanding the differences between a boy and a girl. My four year old is more intelligent than these pretentious Biden voters

[@discbrakefan]

@@jms0313 🤦‍♂️

[@jms0313]

@@discbrakefan you think you support women but you don’t. You are an intellectual coward

[@discbrakefan]

@@jms0313 If you say so.

[@emibunny9]

One issue I have with the current guidelines is that it assumes 1 year is sufficient for testosterone suppression to reverse the potential strength advantages that years of high testosterone may have had on the transgender women's body. I spoke to a doctor that treats trans people and they said the consensus is that it can take 3-5 years to see the completion of body composition effects from hormone therapy in UNTRAINED individuals. Perhaps we need to be studying trans women who have been on hormone therapy for longer periods of time before making sweeping policy suggestions in favor of exclusion.

[@ruth8967]

Yes and no. The one year mark was not an assumption as you claim, but rather it was from objective data the IOC relied upon to make their imperfect nd evolving decision. As a doctor who treats TG women, the data is pretty clear and not disputed regarding body composition changes beginning substantially within the first 6 months, though they do continue for several more years after that. Agreed, we absolutely do need to study time periods beyond one year, as there is currently only a few studies that have.

[@nathanhaney91]

Best video you have ever done, Dylan! Kudos to you for having both the guts and the competence to make it.

[@EeveeA]

I normally never comment but I think as a trans woman I may have some interesting things to offer here, less in way of a conclusion, but even more factors to add to the discussion. One I always think about is when the transition happens. The earlier the transition, the more in line the results are with their associated gender. Starting puberty blockers is a massive factor here, and that I firmly believe for example that any trans person who was fortunate enough to start blockers early shouldn't even be factored into trans athletes - as weird as that may sound at first. The point is that transition later is you going through a second puberty, and that is your body changing your secondary sex characteristics overlapping your first puberty's changes done to your body, where if you had puberty blockers those changes from the first never occurred. Another simple one of the timing aspect, is that regardless of if a trans woman went through natal puberty, pelvic bone widening and tilting can still be done if HRT is started before the pelvic bone fuses, usually mid 20s. Another factor in my view is if transition for trans women is done for a more sedentary trans woman or athletic. When I was more sedentary, I went from a fairly muscular average looking guy to I couldn't open a jar woman in 9 months, because I simply wasn't using or maintaining those muscle groups. For trans women who arnt active, you absolutely lose crazy amounts of muscle fast, and gaining it is hard, but I theorize you can through training maintain your increased muscle you had from naturally higher testosterone before starting hrt through hrt by simply maintaining, which makes that aspect more complicated for those transitioning that are already athletes and doing so later in life. Another aspect is what type of HRT is being taken and if GCS (gender confirmation surgery) or orchiectomy is done. From my personal views, if GCS or orchi are done, hormonal based be fits are out the window, and fall back onto exclusively the preexisting benefits that natal testosterone levels and natal puberty gave those trans women. Different HRT makes things much more complicated. The WHO and WPATH standards for care may be there, but I can promise you - the conclusion in the video about needing more data isn't just for trans people in sports, but trans people as a whole. HRT I would borderline consider still in its infancy as far as its efficacy for giving the patient natal-level hormones. While those guidelines given are "be below 10.0" or "be below 5.0", due to the standardization of medication such as spironolactone for the purpose of an anti-androgen for suppressing testosterone, it massively just tanks your levels. For example, my personal testosterone level is on average 0.1, below the acceptable range for even cis women, and does give negative side effects, all because the stuff they want us to take doesn't factor in the individual - 9 times out of 10, ask a trans woman their hrt dose (note: not a good thing to ask someone, just for explanation sake) it'll be 200mg spironolactone, and 6mg or estradiol daily. Those dosages are not only lacking for Feminization, but tanks testosterone levels to dangerously low, making forming muscle incredibly difficult and brain function inconsistent. (read: memory retention issues) All that to say, that's just in the US. The US doesn't have a proper anti-androgen medication approved for the FDA. So we use spironolactone and get dozens of side effects, which I imagine also impact any studies done if done in the US. Other countries have far better anti-androgen options. And again, this isn't even factoring in after a surgery where a trans woman would no longer have testicles, which will dramatically change the factors to consider here, again. I say all this, and frankly I could keep going but I think this is enough to demonstrate, I don't even know the right path forward here for trans athletes, and that's mainly due to so many factors to consider. This isn't a simple issue, and frankly the efforts currently being made to prevent teens to be unable to have HRT and blockers will continue to make this discussion more frustrating, because in my view that's the most simple direction for the future's of trans athletes is supporting them when they're young and these issues not even being there to begin with. But the more there is fighting to prevent them from getting care early, not only increases their long term gender dysphoria, but also opens the gates for these nuanced physiological issues between men and women sports. So beyond hrt, surgery, and so many other things, the issues of trans people in sports starts earlier than "poof, trans person exists and wants to play sports" - a wider understanding of the topic helps a lot. Not to imply you don't have an understanding, but rather it feels clear you focused on the studies, which frankly helps the video to be unbiased and I appreciate that, and I do believe you covered this well, I just hope anyone who wants to further their understanding on trans people in sports looks a bit further than just the studies. Sorry for the wall, and I hope it was worth the read to anyone who did.

[@mlegrand]

Thanks for taking the time to post this! Great detailed response. 👏

[@matt.rus1]

It was worth the read for me. Finding a reasonable discussion on this topic online is a breath of fresh air, quite frankly, so thanks. My only concern with the points you've raised is the topic of supporting teens with transitioning. I'm not sure how young you would consider this to be appropriate, but I'd be concerned that allowing people to make such huge decisions at such a young age has the potential for some real, permanent harm. Should we allow people to change their gender before their brain is even fully developed? I'm a big supporter of personal autonomy, but we, as a society, do accept certain limits at which younger people need to be protected/have decisions made for them. And we do this for choices much less permanent and damaging than hormone replacement.

[@EeveeA]

@@matt.rus1 I don't deny on a surface level it's a very scary thing to propose, but I can assure you that there's not only many scientific angles backing it up, as well as social understandings that back this up, too. Let me explain. So first off, no, we're not giving prepubescent kids anything medical level. At that stage, they see therapists, psychologists, and are allowed to choose a name that they'd prefer to go by and allowed the choice of clothes. That's it. Notice though specifically, this is something professionals, the parents, and the child all work through together to get what the child feels comfortable with, and not forcing anything on anyone. In fact, it's pretty difficult to get approved. Then, when puberty starts, they can ALSO see their primary care and an endocrinologist, so have continuing active care over puberty blockers, or more accurately called, puberty pause button. While actively on them, it simply prevent puberty from going further than where it is, and isn't started till puberty is noticeable. Also note, this wasn't made for trans people, this was made for kids who start puberty wildly early and is safe in use to ensure a safe puberty growth for them. Any time these are stopped, puberty will simply resume. Meaning if the child starts blockers at 9, finds out by 12 they're not actually trans, stops the blockers and their puberty goes on like nothing happened. However, for those that are trans, this saves 5hem a lifetime of suffering from gender dysphoria, where those characteristics developed during that time without blockers take years of HRT in adulthood, and many many surgeries to undo many aspects, and often things can't be undone, causing longterm grief. Now, so when's the HRT? typically 14-16 depending on location and other factors. That point allows hrt to start a puberty associated with their gender safely and not fighting against a different puberty that they don't associate with their gender. Then, typically starting at 18 but sometimes 17 with parental consent (most surgeon's don't even do 17 year olds, yet another threading the needle just to explain thoroughly) then GCS can be done. That's it. Adults making decisions for themselves. But even then, I have to add. It's incredibly rare for people who shows strong signs of gender incongruence in a young age to then not go through with that. And I will note, we're not talking about they wanted to play with different toys, we're talking how they identify and want to be addressed as a person, their name and pronouns, to be themselves. So when it's properly done, properly monitored by professionals and with parental guidance? There's overwhelmingly positive effects over negative ones to allow adolescents to explore their identity and be given the tools to prevent longterm suffering. Obviously we're deviating a bit further from the source topic, but I feel it's important for any passerbyers to be able to read and understand this important topic further, as it is nuanced and complicated, and we're not taught this in schools so it's important to actually understand what's happening vs just "they're turning the kids trans!" rhetoric.

[@EeveeA]

@@mlegrand Hey, glad you appreciated it. Keep up the good videos!

[@ericcoxtcu8037]

@@EeveeA Thank you for this. As the parent of a trans child, this explanation is fantastic. My wife and I have tried to be open to answering fair questions from friends and family - the number of people who think that when they found out our child was trans represented a sudden change was high. We then describe the long period of therapy, discussions with doctors, evaluating reversible versus non-reversible interventions, and the decision to come out, most start to understand. Some will choose not to and revert to "but they're a minor and could change their mind!" That is an exceedingly rare occurrence and almost non-existent when the trans child (not a tomboy or boy who likes dolls, but a trans child) is raised in a supportive environment.

[@annearly3200]

I am a woman, not ciswomen. Why should I be recategorized? Women's bodies are different in some sports that make a big difference like gymnastics, women's careers end at 20 where men can go past 20's

[@abone2pick]

I was able to dunk a basketball at 5'8" (172cm) before the age of 18. I could have shut off my testosterone at that moment and I would still have a huge athletic advantage over a female that's loaded on testosterone .

[@xsteevox]

Bro you just wanted to talk about your ability to dunk

[@abone2pick]

@@xsteevox nah I can't even do it anymore🤣 just cycling for me

[@loganjackson9559]

Agree. While I cannot relate to basketball, when I ran cross country in high school, I was far from the best, but I still completed a 5k a minute and thirty seconds faster than the girls state champion. If I were to suppress my testosterone for a year yet maintain the same training plan, there is no way I would have lost enough of my ability to be beat by the top woman. The effect would have been even more significant if it were a state champion on the guys side.

[@kefkapalazzo1]

Damn that’s crazy hops

[@group555_]

Except the process of mtf hormone therapy reduces muscle mass considerably. When done early enough it will bring levels to that expected in woman

[@DylanJohnsonCycling]

Let me know what you think! Do you value inclusion or fairness more? What do you think a good solution to this problem is?

[@ihzbc]

You just delete my post wtf ?

[@DylanJohnsonCycling]

@ihzbc I've never deleted a post from anyone. Might have been automatically deleted by KZbin.

[@Wisekuma]

@@ihzbc He didn't, I can see your comment. Relax.

[@85parrot]

@@ihzbc If you mean the one that says "completely unfair" - it's still there, not deleted.

[@ihzbc]

@@85parrot okay it's automatique, it's not this comment but anotherone...

[@ellieesselahi5785]

Great video, Dylan, as always. This is absolutely a subject that needs to be talked about. Ignore those who want to silence you. I'm a female road racer and I wish there could be more rational discussion about this topic.

[@ruth8967]

I agree sister, as an ex lady road racer. I would like to add I feel it is so important if not an outright obligation to be very thorough and comprehensive in our data analysis and mindful along the way of the realities of emotion driven confirmation biases. Even in Academic medicine, we continue to encounter cherry picking (includes data exclusion) and other fallacies in less prestigious publications with minimal peer review. For the top tier journals, biases and method validity are pursued with impassioned vigor, and there are typically 4-5 truly national level subject field experts utilized to review a single research paper in addition to editorial board itself.

[@noturcis]

If the testosterone is still 10 to 4 times more than a natural born female it should be considered like doping... Russian female athletes did this in the '80s and they put a stop to it. If testosterone is responsible for all these things then having that much more on a regular basis is too much! #natafem

[@MrPilberg]

Very well presented. Highly controversial topic. 100% agree more data required to validate. People need to be able to speak openly about it. Especially given the comment near the end about athletes not being able to discuss opinions without fear of being branded transphobic

[@NewEnglandDirtRoadie]

it is a controversial topic, especially when you have biological males cracking REAL female's skulls in mma matches, when the REAL female didn't even know she was competing against a MALE. and HE went on to BRAG about it, claiming HE enjoyed cracking the skulls of "transphobic" people. isn't that charming?

[@Bendwow]

@@NewEnglandDirtRoadie You'd think democrats would be the ones standing up for the real women who are getting cheated out of medals/fair competitions. But it's the same with abortion issue, if science doesn't support your viewpoint just ignore it :D

[@kkdoc7864]

This should never be controversial. The presence of a Y chromosome should exclude any individual from partaking in women’s competitive sports. Period.

[@ruth8967]

@@kkdoc7864 Um sorry KK, having a Y chromosome does not determine gender differentiation of the brain or even of the genitals in some DSD women or in all early onset TG women. The Y chromosome only matters in the 98-99% of cis-males where prenatal development takes no side-roads. I can guarantee you that you have spoken to or even been friends with a DSD woman with a Y chromosome unless you live in your mom's basement and never stepped out. You would never be able to tell the difference.

[@kkdoc7864]

@@ruth8967 You are right in that there are rare cases like Swyer syndrome where there is complete lack of receptors for androgen so that a biological male XY will have all feminine characteristics. But those cases can be discovered through testing. The point is, if androgens are present, functional, and effective, then my statement is correct. It’s not appropriate to expect the two sexes to have the same biological prowess to compete fairly against each other, and that line should never be crossed.

[@gerrygadget]

Fairness is what makes competition worth participating in and watching.

[@alexandraburton3288]

there is nothing fair about competition

[@gerrygadget]

@@alexandraburton3288 in sports there absolutely is. If, over a period of time, you have a chance of winning, it's worth the investment and worth watching. If the deck is stacked too much it isn't worth it and participants and spectators won't bother and the event falls apart or loses money. You can see this happen in pretty much all sports and games.

[@matthewsmith5225]

Agreed. It's not fair to humiliate a trans-woman by saying they are not a woman so they can't compete with other women. They are women, and they should be allowed to compete against their own gender.

[@alexandraburton3288]

@@gerrygadget there is so much unfair about sports and competition. I could make a very long list. So that is not a valid argument. As a professional cis-woman athlete, when I toe the line, I am there to beat who ever lines up with me. And if I don't beat them, I need to figure out how to.

[@matthewsmith5225]

@RegularOldRug The federal government has defined them as women. So you say they are not women, and never will be... but our government has already proved that wrong when they over turned the Alabama drivers license law. They clearly stated transgender women are women. Therefore not allowing women to compete with other women is discrimination against women. Women have fought hard for their rights, and making them compete in the men sports is not fair to women.

[@ivarbrouwer197]

I have trained with a professional female former man, and as a man he had some talent. she clearly lost power from her transition to becoming a female. She did become a pro female cyclist, even getting some results here and there but she never got to the level that you can state she overperformed although her sprint was notably a skill. She even made TV broadcast at the tour of Flanders once in a break away, but even though of similar height she would not be a match compared to Ellen Van Dijk for instance. (All this with mandatory hormone suppression ofcourse)

[@RGCastro7]

Excellent work, Dylan. I felt that you shared the available information and your thoughts with no bias. I believe in fairness over inclusion. For me, it's like asking a field of clean athletes to allow an athlete who doped for decades to compete against them because that athlete hasn't doped for a year, despite still having measurable gains from the effects of doping.

[@SoundSpeeding]

That’s a perfect analogy, and is exactly what is happening.

[@MatthewJustinOnline]

No one seems to have a problem riding next to Alejandro Valverde or Simon Yates at every grand tour…

[@RGCastro7]

@@MatthewJustinOnline Hello, Matthew. I don't know enough about them and their stories, and neither do I know the opinions of those who race against them, but I don't believe that "nobody has a problem". It's more likely to be a case of them not being able to do much about it without considerable work or perhaps even risk to their careers. Have you seen how women who speak up against trans athletes can have all sorts of hate directed towards them? For people who live from their sports, speaking up against something like this can result in them losing support because organizations and sponsors may wish to avoid controversy. There's lots we still need to learn about this; I hope both organizations and athletes work together to gather enough information to be able to make more informed decisions. What's available now is insufficient to make properly-informed decisions. Greater sample sizes and number of studies, especially using professional athletes, would help considerably. I value fairness over individual feelings.

[@davidconsumerofmath]

@@MatthewJustinOnline ...yeah, because they're all doping! Ha. You're fine with watching "Women's Athletics" at the Olympics that's 100% XY Athletes?

[@keylime6]

In sport, women and men categories weren't created because they felt different. It's because they are physically different. It's as if a boxing superweight said he should compete in the lightweight category because he feels lighter

[@diamondnvi7675]

Great video! I think the one danger when engaging in such "political" topics is that unfortunately those politics can also infect the science. Specifically with the last study cited, the researcher themselves follows and engages with known transphobic movements like the LGB Alliance, and in the article uses straw men with no citation to claim what the "pro-transgender" side believes. This doesn't automatically mean the science is bad, but when paired with methodology like snowball sampling which has a known issue with community bias, should be noted when considering the validity of the study. These are really tricky topics to get right, and unfortunately there is a lot of bias when it comes to relevant research.

[@ruth8967]

Spot on. That researcher is notorious.

[@acanfield87]

Thank you for concisely presenting the status of the science on this subject. I don't think I've heard a better discussion of the multitude of advantages that males have over females, beyond simply testosterone. I think the IOC has the right approach with fair competition first and foremost. More research might be warranted, but it seems pretty clear that biological males should be competing together.

[@moritzf2211]

Thank you for discussing this topic in an evidence based and calm matter and without the use of discriminating language. While I wish that there would be a fair and just way for trans-women to compete in events like the Olympics, I generally agree with your conclusion.

[@Bendwow]

Stating scientific and biological facts isn't being discriminating in the slightest.

[@moritzf2211]

@@Bendwow Yes it can be, e.g. there are men whose height is below average, let’s say 5‘6“. That’s a biological fact, right? Those guys are probably les likely to be good at basketball, still a fact, still not discriminating. However if I talk about this group of men and constantly use language and tropes, which are meant to hurt them, stating that „they are not real men“ because they are to small, etc. this would be very discriminating. Also within the first of two sentences of my comment, I thanked Dylan, for NOT BEEING DISCRIMINATING, so you might wanna work on your reading comprehension :-)

[@jayjee735]

They can, in the male category, Olympic sports are separated by sex not gender identity.

[@moritzf2211]

@@jayjee735 while I absolutely acknowledge that it is unfair & unjust for transwomen to compete against cis-women, it is also obviously unfair & unjust to have them compete against cis-men. If you can’t understand that, there is no basis for discussion between us, I‘m just feeling sorry for your lack of empathy.

[@jayjee735]

@@moritzf2211 why is it unjust? If there has only been social transition why is it unjust? Even if there is medical interventions, bring the evidence to show it is unjust BEFORE including them in the female category without asking females. I think males need to be more inclusive of all males, including the ones who believe they are women. Gender identity is not biological sex.

[@mechatak]

Very well presented, balanced, fair and backed up by science. Great work Dylan.

[@prudentiaski]

As a non binary cyclist I was happy to see how you presented this and how respectful you were throughout you entire review. Thanks for all that 🙏

[@TheyForcedMyHandLE]

Non-Binary has to do with gender identity, right? These trans folks are actually trying to change themselves from what they were born.

[@mxxz3900]

Your gender is determined by your sex. You’re either a man or a woman, stop confusing yourself

[@pingpongballz5998]

You're confused.

[@fabiofilocamo8733]

Please do not listen to these disgusting people in the comment. I too am a queer/queergender cyclist and I feel this kind of videos are very important. You are valid, just like me

[@joshmiller8528]

No such thing as non binary. Your either male or female deal with it,

[@Teeve01]

Good non biased video and presenting of research and/or even lack there of. If it was as easy as saying inclusivity is king that would be great. But it’s not, especially with biology and human physiological differences. If your video proved anything it’s that more research is needed. I’m a recent former pro female bodybuilder, so I’m sure you can imagine where I stand with this debate. I think it was already mentioned in a previous comment, but simply saying your T level has to be under the range for men for a year hardly negates the years of training as a male. It’s simply not fair. The other piece here that wasn’t part of your video was the women in the Olympics that were scrutinized for their T level and DQ’d. Chromosomes came into question. There’s a lot to be studied here. I want everyone to be able to compete regardless of gender assignment, but as we move forward this is going to have to be addressed. I’m now seeing women at the top of their mtb sport stop racing due to this. High school girls missing out on scholarships because of this. Records being set that on even our best day, will never be achieved or broken by biological female athletes. Idk if having an open category is the answer and then a male and a female category too so that everyone gets an opportunity is the answer? But I don’t want co-Ed sports. Not interested in that. USA cycling made an official statement about this earlier this year if I got my dates right. It leans more towards inclusivity. Caitlin Jenner was even asked about this as she sided with fairness. Favoring biology vs inclusivity... and that’s a transgender and former male Olympian. I imagine all sports authorities will have to address this sooner rather than later. Thanks again for even tackling the topic.

[@rleague685]

Well put Tracy!

[@yumyumhungry]

I went and checked out these studies that Dylan is citing and they are ridiculously small sample sizes and barely statistically significant. As far as women's cycling is concerned trans-athletes are NOT dominating the sport and banning them feels like a really shitty way to try to solve something that is not even an issue (right now). Obviously if trends start to emerge that should be revisited, but collecting larger data sets and erring on the side of inclusivity doesn't seem like it is hurting anyone at the moment.

[@cjohnson3836]

@@yumyumhungry There's no such thing as "barely statistically significant". You look at an effect size and determine for yourself if the evidence is compelling. Stating "barely significant" leads me to think you don't actually really understand what determines significance and how to interpret a test statistic.

[@danielpinto1417]

There is no inclusion at Olympics level.. otherwise everybody could participate even if they did not meet the marks or times needed.. me and you could be there.. with that said, the fairness of competition is more important and therefore transwoman should not compete against other woman.. as simple as that

[@ruth8967]

Why do all the premature concluders all seem to use binary maxims? Just an observation.

[@SB-lb8th]

I was so reluctant to watch this video. I didnt want to taint my already very positive opinion of you. But I am glad I did. I learned a lot. Including how to have a less heated opinion, and a more balanced, fact based view. Class act!

[@pmcmpc]

Bone density and connective tissue advantages are very significant, and will last a life time, no matter how low the T levels are (they're typically raised), and how long it's been (usually not that long - elite athletes aren't old). It would be more fair to have a separate category - it's just not big enough to justify at the moment. Perhaps it could be run with the paras until the field of competitors is large enough to include it with the main event (I'd guess 20-30 years?). But I think even getting a field big enough to run concurrently with the paras in Paris would be impossible. Maybe in 7 years? Stigma of outing oneself would just be too big for most potential competitors atm.

[@Nonixification]

So you are saying there will be more transgenders in the future? I thought this is not a trending fashion.

[@PsyX99]

@@Nonixification I'd say it will incease because people are not dying anymore if says they are trans for a start. Or if they can put a name to what they live. And it's probably also something that can only increase as the male/women equality increase. Gender roles means nothing if we are equal, being trans is just exploring the possibilities.

[@pmcmpc]

@Abe Lincon hahahahaha. comedian apparently

[@PsyX99]

​@Abe Lincon Are you sarcastic ? (English is not my primary language, and I've no idea what you are talking about right now... )

[@MichaelBoogerd]

Wow, I understand the concept but to put this subset of athletes in with the paraolympics could be construed as discrimination? Treating their choice as a disability? 🤣😅 not my personal take, but I could anticipate some pushback for this solution. A separate category makes sense, but numbers would need to grow significantly to justify it.

[@JoeJoe-lq6bd]

13% is huge in endurance events. 13% over a couple of hours counts as much more than 13% for a single lift. Sure, a top level cis-woman will beat a non-top level trans-woman in cycling, but top level vs. top level, the trans-woman will almost always win. We can be inclusive by having non-binary events.

[@ruth8967]

Except Joe Joe, that is not happened in reality. The 13% number cited is hypothetical, has been blown up in early objective testing with CTS metrics, and performance data so far corroborates their is no domination by the very few (

[@JoeJoe-lq6bd]

@@ruth8967 "Except Joe Joe, that is not happened in reality." Looking at specific racers' results is not a good scientific methodology. You look at physiological changes over large groups with controls, not race results, to determine fairness. There is more than just a biological potential component in racing. It seems like you're cherry-picking here, ironically. Linking this to the issues with covid miracle cures is a pretty disingenuous stretch. I have a hard time taking you seriously after that.

[@ruth8967]

@@JoeJoe-lq6bd Can't say I'm tracking whatever argument you are making other than your desire to discredit a measured and learned commentary via your partial non-sequiturs and fabricated mis-directions. An alternative response if you felt unsettled by my thoughts might be to pause and reflect rather than lash out at a senior scientist because you did not hear what you wanted to hear. But that is at the crux of human weakness playing out everyday during this pandemic. Masses of people think they are the expert regardless of their training and professional experience, and many are too insecure to be wrong. Probably why the planet will be kicking our species off it soon enough, making all of this seem quite ludicrous.

[@rosyosy9617]

IOC didn’t allow some cisgender women to compete at the olympics 2020 because their testosterone levels were above 5 mmol. How can this be fair, when trans women are allowed to have 10 mmol? I am for inclusion on all levels. One could say Michael Phelps had an unfair advantage because he has the perfect swimmer’s body. Are we going to have to start measuring all bio markers to level out the playing field?

[@carlosleyva4394]

The real no sense is going against biology. Period.

[@fredrikbengtsson8458]

There are different levels for different sports and even for different events. Those athletes who were banned from the 800m would have been allowed in the 200m. That's maybe even more strange, but it's not a difference between cis and trans women.

[@07Flash11MRC]

Usong the Michael Phelps argument is completely disingenous, because he doesn't compete with women, he competes with men, aka his genetic sex. Trans-women (aka bio men) want to compete with bio women, and that is an issue.

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

Fairness & merit. I feel bad for all the women cyclists & athletes (born women biologically that is) that have trained all their life to see their hopes destroyed by a transgender athlete with almost unbeatable records...

[@ruth8967]

Please give me the names of these record setting elite transwoman cyclists please. Since you proclaim such women exist and are dominating, I'm sure you can give the names and their world / national records?

[@Mountainhippiedude]

Good job of presenting the facts currently available on such a controversial topic. My guess is that this will soon be your most viewed video.

[@myronkemp9417]

I really appreciate your quest to present scientific evidence here, even when it was limited. I’m not sure what the solution is, but I do appreciate rational discussion as opposed to the knee jerk reactions and accusations I usually read on the subject.

[@EverythingIsPhotogenic]

And just like that, Dylan touches the third rail... 👏👏👏 thanks for being another voice standing up for women in sport with the FACTS. Accepting, respecting, and supporting transgendered individuals is not mutually exclusive with acknowledging there is an unfair advantage in sport! The purpose of sport IS to compete in a fair and level playing field. WOMEN ARE NOT SMALL MEN!

[@philipsmithnyc]

Having separate events for athletes that are presenting as something other than birth designation i.e. male/female is the only fair way to go. You have to stay true to the rationale that gave rise to separate male and female sports. The notion of men competing against women in certain sports is intuitive to most people, it's obvious a man is going to have an advantage and I'm talking about "as a rule". Because of politics we're ignoring the obvious. Trans men compete against trans men, trans women compete against trans women. Problem solved.

[@sgameirojr]

The only problem is that very few would pay to watch transgender Olympics. It's like Special Olympics, or Crossfit games. Maybe if they do as special gender categories on same Olympics, but whatever.

[@jessieelliott9166]

I mean, they already separate some sports based on age and weight right? And as you said @philip smith, they separate sports for men and women for obvious fairness reasons. So next up transgender woman 100m race, 200m, etc. I don’t think there would be a problem of attendance if these races are included in the regular olympics. That’s the inclusion piece….don’t separate them from the main group. For now, the main issue that I see is that there likely would not be enough transgender women athletes in each sport to make a valid competition. This may change overtime as cultures become more transgender accepting and inclusive. But for now, there may only be a single-digit number of transgender athletes competing across all sports. Also, what to do with androgynous people. I just listened to a RadioLab podcast that spoke about a female who was born with high levels of natural testosterone. Her name is Dutee Chand. She was winning high level races when they eventually checked her testosterone levels and ultimately excluded her from competing. We can end up down a rabbit hole of separate categories for fairness, which is overwhelming to think about at present. Maybe we will end up doing that anyway. But I think separate competition for transgender women could be the start for true fairness.

[@lancaster5808]

@@sgameirojr and so what if only a few are interested in those "special" categories?

[@sgameirojr]

@@lancaster5808 it's hard to justify its cost, otherwise, no problem.

[@jayjee735]

Dutee Chand is not androgynous, but is genetically male but has a disorder of sexual development, which meant Chand was observed as female at birth and brought up that way. Different rules for DSD athletes needed imo.

[@lukas456]

I don’t understand the hate I saw on Instagram

[@dharryp6]

I see so many people talking trash about you for making this video and I'm sure that most of them haven't taken the time to watch the video or heard your arguments. Keep up the good work man 👍

[@brunospasta]

Really? I see pretty much only positive comments on here with compliments on how Dylan approached the topic.

[@whitestuff10]

@@brunospasta Outside of KZbin, it's very VERY different.

[@chrisscanlon3717]

@@brunospasta go check out his instagram. all the woke cancel culture crowd are trying to get his sponsors removed. they are REEEEEE losing their minds

[@DA-js7xz]

@@chrisscanlon3717 just stop. You're being ridiculous and sound like a child.

[@michellepope4724]

Thank you for making this video. I have been a competitive powerlifter and now an avid gravel cyclist, and this is a hot topic. I appreciate you looked beyond testosterone and took a more comprehensive view of the science. Women should not be expected to value inclusion over teal fairness. Especially given the long and exhausting history of women fighting for parity in profession sports (pay, opportunity). It was validating to have a frank and open conversation based on fact. Thank you.

[@nimbuscycles2354]

Love how objective this video is. Thanks for not feeding into all the rage the media tries to generate. Very well stated!

[@stevedeibler2181]

Nicely presented Dylan. Certainly brings up some good points. More research is definitely needed. In the meantime I think separate categories is best for fairness.

[@sandyh5873]

Separate fields may work, however in Colorado the woman’s fields tends to be less then five per category. Plus the number of trans or Klinefelter’s cyclists is quite small which would result in few promoters finding the benefit of adding a category for one entrant.

[@ruth8967]

@@sandyh5873 Here in the mid-south, the number of TG women entrants would be one at most, though DSD women are much more common yet tend to not stand out.

[@sandyh5873]

@First Last A reality most are missing is that the number of trans cyclists is quite small.

[@ruth8967]

@First Last I suspect you are a good person and not prejudicial, but I use the following safeguard rule to ask myself if I am being inappropriate in a statement regarding a minority....... Would I (or you) use that same phrase "entertaining for sure" if I (or you) were speaking about a black-only league, or para-athletes? A quick litmus test to check one's inherent bias against a social minority. These hidden biases are hard to spot but I really do not want to be perceived as ugly / hurtful to minority due to my being disrespectful. There is where the narcissistic men make the statement complaining how they have to be "PC" for all "those" people. Definitely want to be 180 degrees opposite from those insecure dorks. Anyway, hope my little self-test thing helps!

[@johnnyhammersticks243]

@@ruth8967 They could always continue to compete with men

[@ADCFproductions]

i think it's up to the other women athletes and teams etc to decide. If they say it's okay for a trans to compete with them, who am i as a viewer to say no? I'm just sitting on my couch watching, i have no say in this. if i was competing however, i can understand the problem. we're not talking about regular couch potatoes, we're talking about humans at the peak of their physical performance, so i understand how it could be seen as unfair.

[@matteo.ceriotti]

Great video, probably one of the best of yours. Had not thought about fairness vs. inclusion before.

[@Steven-ko6ky]

Perhaps a good solution would be to create a new category for transgender females (and possibly a category for transgender males). It would slowly gain attraction and promote inclusion. Also, it would allow us to gather more data to determine what is fair.

[@PsyX99]

That wont promote inclusion as you are saying that some male and female are not male and female (while being inclusive it treating them as male and female).

[@PsyX99]

@RegularOldRug The reason we have men and women category exist because we've decided to be different with people according to their sex and that's it is important. Which is a very particular idea... Is it important in the 21st century ? Is it relevant ? Why do we care so much about this, even though we're suppose to be equal and not discriminate based on gender ? Tell you what. If someone doesn't recognise being a male or a female, let them be. It's not your problem. Your only problem is to respect them because they are fellow human beings. Biology and gender are for more complex than male attribute = male / female attribute = female. And I've said biology, yes.

[@skiak004]

@@PsyX99 Did you watch the complete video to the end? No one is saying we shouldn't accept anyones sexual identity or the decision to transition. We're saying that if you want to COMPETE in sports, with the possibility of medals, money, fame and records, then do it on a fair playing field as far as sexes go (there is a biological difference- this is fact, not culture). If you were a woman that had to compete against trans athletes for your livelihood, you really don't have a chance to be successful. With your logic, would it be okay for women that have to compete against trans to women to take T to get their levels up as high as their trans competitors? And even with this, it doesn't address the bone length, height and hip differences that give males at birth a competitive advantage.

[@PsyX99]

@@skiak004 But why "woman" and "man". We can also make category by body fat / body muscle category. On some sport it's about weight. I wont ever be good at basketball because there is not height category. There is many many many many competitive advantage to any sport other than gender. We can choose how we create category. That's just what I'm saying.

[@diegorondelli9379]

@@PsyX99 there are elite basketball players under 1,8m height, so you example does not stand. Segregating by sex is the only way to account for the fact that elite male athletes will always be better at sport than elite female athletes, even with same body fat/weight and so on. Having men and woman category let woman give the prize they deserve, because they compete in a fair environment

[@sharonmoller7414]

I really appreciate your very mature and well reasoned approach to the topic. It was thoroughly researched and respectfully presented. It’s so hard for me to be unemotional about it as a cis woman when I think about the decades, nay centuries, cis women have fought for participation in sport and recognition of female athletes. Even now it’s a battle for equal pay because funding is so incredibly limited, sponsors of athletes and teams are hard to find, just to get women’s races on tv is like getting blood out of a stone. It’s the 21st century and it took until 2021 to get the first ever women’s Paris Roubaix. The thing we all dread is yet another new barrier for young aspiring cis girls to dare to dream of reaching a podium in a race one day. It hard not to be pessimistic and feel beaten yet down again, it seems as cis woman we are destined to languish at the bottom of the ladder eternally. I know my rant is one sided, but it chimes with the final research paper you presented. Does anyone really care to listen to what the cis female athletes have to say? I’m not against trans women participating in sport, I feel trans women have the right to dream too. But let’s be real - this is NOT a zero sum game. Trans women’s inclusion comes at the expense of cis women’s athletic careers. That’s a reality cis male athletes NEVER even have to contemplate in THEIR careers.

[@mjoet731]

THEY ARE MEN!~

[@laxsr2k6]

As always, open minded, respectful, objective, and intelligent. Awesome work!

[@WelshdragonRugby]

Cheers Dylan for educating us on such a controversial topic! Really great video!

[@colin47]

Really well done! I hope this brings you a wider audience.

[@Bendwow]

Nothing controversial if you know how basic science and biology works.

[@ltonetto]

The lack of research is likely due to no institution/researchers (and even scientific journals) willing to have their names associated with end results that would steer the needle either way conclusively. Great to see you bringing up all that is currently available, this way maybe pressure from the general public could finally get us to a better understanding of this whole thing.

[@starshockey11]

There’s a physiological reason the best women soccer players in the world lose by significant margin to U14 boys. Not taking away from their (USWNT) accomplishments or money they produce- simply saying as a means to parallel the affects of increased testosterone, VO2, muscle mass, etc to a relatively limited affect (a pubescent boy).

[@ruth8967]

Reduce your THC dosing Ethan. It would be cruel and heart-breaking to watch the USWNT (soccer) play against U14 boys. That is an important time in those boy's self-esteem development, and thus very unfair. The women's national team would toy with them like a Dad pretends to lose to a 3 yr old in the backyard, except the U14 boys would be harder to fool and be humiliated by how soft the ladies were playing to not hurt their feelings. Come on now. Less Dope, more reality.

[@starshockey11]

@@ruth8967 actually ya you’re right they were U15 boys, not 14. I stand corrected. www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/amp/ 😂😂😂

[@starshockey11]

@@ruth8967 Hey “doc” I thought I’d include this evidence for you as well. 😂😂 www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-women-s-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html%3famp

[@ruth8967]

@@starshockey11 I stand corrected! From the link: "The U.S. surely wasn’t going all out, with the main goal being to get some minutes on the pitch, build chemistry when it comes to moving the ball around, improve defensive shape and get ready for Russia." It looks like our women did put just enough effort in so the teens felt the ladies treated them with respect and not pre-schoolers. All class for both sides!

[@ruth8967]

@@starshockey11 Those dear Aussie Ladies came up against some solid kiddo's! True, it's anecdote and not likely to be repeated if the ladies brought their A game, but I stand (kinda?) corrected. Appreciate the links for sure! Sorry about the THC comment, hopefully you found it funny.

[@michaelhatch1974]

It's a minefield that blows up with so many "what ifs" and you haven't covered the Castor Semenya's of this world. Its far easier to be an underperforming male than an over performing female of any description. I have a feeling that the asterisk is going to be used a lot in the record books.

[@graemehill]

To be fair she’s not trans which is what this video is about but ya you’re right that’s certainly highly related and an important part of the conversation.

[@ricktan5663]

Of course. Its very easy to be underperforming anything... you can just stop the performance. Overperforming is much more difficult.

[@michaelhatch1974]

@@ricktan5663 I'm always surprised when anyone takes me seriously....

[@patthecat6491]

Well done presentation. Personally I feel transwomen have an unfair competitive advantage and shouldn't be allowed to compete in womens events.

[@kadequarles2446]

Thanks for posting this. One further complication that usually isn’t addressed is the difference between people who start their medical transition BEFORE going through the puberty of their birth gender. All the research you mentioned only seems to apply to people who transitioned as adults. I think someone born as male who never goes through male puberty will likely turn out to have no (or only minimal) advantage over someone who has been training in an adult male body, then transitions.

[@MichaelBoogerd]

Goodness me, are you explaining that a 10-11 year old has enough personal awareness and world experience to question their gender.... ? I must be too old fashioned, because I can’t comprehend that somebody so young could gather enough information to decide this by themselves.

[@ruth8967]

@@MichaelBoogerd Gender differentiation of the brain has already been demonstrated to occur during fetal development and is related to both a time-window based hormonal surge as well as tissue being responsive to that surge. And this occurs normally aligned with the genital differentiation which occurred several weeks prior during gestation. When it goes awry, they are not aligned, and evidence suggests this underlies transgender identity in many but not all gender diverse people. In other words, many transgender children "know" from their earlies memories, and their parents often share witnessing their child's gender identity as a toddler. Think of it as this - when did you first know you were a boy or a girl? Was it before age 10-11? I suspect you knew from your earliest memories too...

[@stxlaxPP]

Transitioning before puberty is extremely irresponsible. There are no circumstances in which it could possibly be deemed acceptable.

[@NadiaSeesIt]

@@ruth8967 post proof

[@ruth8967]

@@NadiaSeesIt There are a few hundred articles on this subject. Perhaps you can start with I.L. Ward's animal studies from the late 1960's / early 1970s and then work yourself forward, pivoting into the human data which came thereafter.

[@guglio7350]

Trans should have their own category. Like it is with age differentiation at UCI categories, or so, just to put common sense and simple rules, not complex science studies and personal background of every individual that takes its free and respectful own choice to decide whether on transgenderism or not. We will cheer and recognize the effort behind every human being despite of their gender but competing to each other in the same field.

[@chrisvanbuggenum871]

Perhaps reduce the testosterone levels further, it didn't seem right to just have it be below the mens level but still higher than womens level. Well done on such a delicate topic, you could have just said "no thank you" as well.

[@ruth8967]

Yes, the threshold levels have already been reduced by UCI and others will likely follow if they havent already.

[@baribari600]

It depends on the sport. For distance running, no, not really. But in track sprinting or weight lifting or tennis it can turn a good athlete into a world-class one.

[@ruth8967]

Agreed, this is where the data is trending from my readings.

[@paulhirst1182]

Thank you Dylan, non-judgemental & informative

[@vikaziza1506]

So normal informative video

[@AmateurExpert23]

I think your framing of the argument as fairness vs inclusion is spot on and a great place to start. At the pointy end of the inclusion solution is creating an open gender division in races. However similar to what women's sports have sometimes seen with revenue generation, there may not be enough demand to sustain those divisions financially.

[@AC-wq7fo]

The Transcontinental, IPWR - among several endurance events, are *not* sex-segregated (bicycle) races.

[@badhorse84]

because raw strength doesn't matter in those races...simple.

[@badhorse84]

@RegularOldRug why you think so? Just curious

[@beaudenefinger3312]

As a transgender man and athlete, I appreciate you covering this topic in a very factual way. I also appreciate you using the correct terminology and being respectful to the trans and cis women athletes you spoke of specifically or generally. I agree that sufficient information is lacking AND that we know certain things to be true about differences between AMAB people (assigned male at birth) and AFAB people (assigned female at birth). I'm not sure what the 'right' thing to do is, but I'm glad you shared this research regardless. Thanks again for being respectful and factual!

[@IvanKoch]

This is great content thanks man! My opinion is that fairness > inclusion until there is enough evidence and the restrictions are re validated

[@rosscads]

You dared to grab that third rail! Thanks for the fair and balanced take, evidence based as always. 👍🏻

[@thomasthuene3173]

I believe this is a very important discussion, and having some data is obviously important, too. However, I believe it is obvious that there an unfair advantage, when fairness is measured about competitiveness (which in sport it practically always is). The first giveaway is that practically all sports associations allow trans males to compete in male sports without any restrictions, while for trans female athletes there are such restrictions if competition is allowed. Second, if there was no advantage for trans females, it stands to reason that there is also no drawback for trans male athletes. Yet, I have still to find a single trans male elite athlete. Even in sports that compensate for strength, e.g., through weight classes like in martial arts, there are no trans male elite athletes. The big problem with trans female athletes in elite sports, I believe, is that with them competing sports will become less interesting. Let's assume that no trans female athlete had gender conversion so that she could compete in elite sports events. Thus, the number of trans female athletes will probably remain rather low. However, they will dominate in their sports, which makes it less interesting for spectators. If spectators stay away, advertisers will stay away, and the leagues will become meaningless. So, what we have built over the last 50 years with Title 9 will simply disappear again.

[@sandyh5873]

I wanted to express my appreciation that you presented this difficult topic from a scientific perspective and not a politically bias view point. Presently there may be more questions then answers however by having the difficult discussions we can gain a greater understanding of the topic. I would be curious to know how many trans cyclists are presently competing and are they all dominating their races. With Steamboat Gravel this weekend will the Woman’s podiums be all trans athletes ?

[@ruth8967]

The 1/1000 female athletes who are trans have somehow failed to destroy and dominate womens cycling so far. One pro domestique in Europe, and one past pro in the US who did not finish in the top 10 at nationals. That's it at the elite levels. None in the Olympics.

[@drapetomaniack]

The trans NZ women presented in the beginning of this video lasted 10 mins in competition at Olympics against best women in the world.. not making if pasts the 1st round of qualification.. a bit suspect that this REAL WORLD datapoint with a real trans woman, in real sport.. that would tend to disprove his conclusion is this not presented in the video?? 🤔

[@jayjee735]

Sports is exclusionary, only the winners get the prizes, fairness trumps all. Male bodies are not excluded from participating in sports at all levels, society needs to accept male bodies expressing in more feminine ways, that is true inclusion, which maintains fairness and safety for females.

[@jacobcreamcrackers787]

You are a brave “person” to address this topic. Reading the comments so far it looks as though you will get out of it with your skin! Good job. Love your content, especially the race recaps.

[@PsyX99]

It's easy to adress the topic, unless you're just ignorant or transphobic... Which he is not :). So we can agree or not with him.

[@travistindle995]

If there is ever a question, the athlete should always compete in what’s accepted as the harder category. That allows continued inclusion in the sport but fairness to all competitors.

[@skippypicasso]

“If there is ever a question”? Any question? Who gets to ask? Who gets to decide?

[@joshuac2594]

@@skippypicasso I think his point is, if you have some question in your mind as to which category you should be in as a trans athlete, choosing the harder one, one which might not fit the way you feel matches your gender, is the one you ought to choose. As a cyclist, I didn't want to be in my category (cat 3) after I started placing 3rd, 2nd or 1st, as soon as I got enough points to upgrade to the pro/1/2 field, I did because sport is about pushing yourself, not just winning.

[@SnackMuay]

@@joshuac2594 I agree. At the same time though, I bet a lot of trans women wouldn’t want to compete at all if it meant they needed to be classified as “men.” It’s probably very upsetting to go through so much effort to finally present the way you are comfortable with, only to be stuck in a category that invalidates that. Renaming the men’s division something like “universal” or “open” division would probably be much better.

[@joshuac2594]

@@SnackMuay right, I think everyone can empathize with that, but as mentioned towards the end of the video, everything is focused on the trans athletes, very little has been done to care about how biological female athletes feel--largely because they are afraid to be called transphobes--when it's these athletes that suffer the most from these kinds of decisions. A trans athlete competing in a field like cycling might be one person in a field of 100-200 bio-women, and that one athlete gets to change the rules for 100 other individuals? In what other part of our society (republic/democracy) do we do that? That's typically called a tyranny, but because they are trans they instead get the world's empathy, despite this being such a complex issue. Everyone deserves to exercise and be involved in sport, but not to others' detriment.

[@skippypicasso]

@@joshuac2594 I don’t know if that was his point as it seems trans women generally don’t have a question about the category in which they belong.

[@dorothyb.]

Well done. This needed a balanced discussion not the fuelled version we normally hear.

[@veloperformance]

Yes, defo value inclusion but fairness is another. It's tough because fair people want it to work but in reality, it's just unfair when it comes to sport. Great video.

[@savannahjackson8513]

Great video. I’m a 48 yr old post op transgender woman and triathlete. I’ve been on female hormones for 12 years. My testosterone levels are at 2.4 nmol and my haemoglobin levels are in the female levels. I can say from personal experience that my strength and endurance are dramatically lower than pre-transition. When competing against women in triathlon, I’m around 85 kgs, compared to many women who are around 60 kgs. So I’m carrying a lot more weight due to my larger size, bones, organs, etc. my VO2max is around 38. I’m no where near an elite athlete and usually finish mid pack. There’s so many factors which make up champion competitors. I’m very grateful that I’m allowed to compete (albeit in just age group categories). There’s no way I could compete against men. I really like your fair, balanced and informative video. Many thanks!

[@aroundandround]

Thank you for presenting it fundamentally as an inclusion vs fairness prioritization question. Moral and ethical questions often boil down to prioritization of generally agreeable principles and it’s important to identify where seemingly thoughtful people disagree, which usually comes down to differences in their prioritization.

[@Cathmoytura]

Courageous of you to address this topic. From where I sit, it looks like you did a good job. I have only one opinion about any topic in women's sports -- the competitors are the only voices that matter. No matter what the topic is in women's sports, all of the competitors must feel free to state and discuss their facts and opinions to shape the governing policies.

[@maranatha3333]

And not feel pressured to give Politically Correct answers if that is not how they really feel.

[@alexandraburton3288]

Courageous?? this white dude talking about a subject that has NOTHING to do with him??

[@maranatha3333]

@@alexandraburton3288 Hence the courage; he’s taking the chance of catching a lot of flak from both sides: taking risk with little potential reward on a subject that he has no obligation to address.

[@vietnguyen4312]

Excellent Dylan. I have forwarded your video to our cycling club. Our committee has been investigating this lately. Thanks for your efforts.

[@Dri1a]

Unpopular opinion : comparing and competing with each other is the issue, not our gender

[@petef15]

Even pure endurance sports have moments in them where strength will determine the win. Common sense prevails with this topic. Good to know the research backs it up.

[@Stalkerfiveo]

I haven't even watched it yet and I already know you got heat coming. 😂

[@Stalkerfiveo]

Follow up after watching: Great video as always. If the IOC truly wants fairness AND inclusion, they should lower the test limit to more closely resemble cis females. They currently allow trans women to test up to DOUBLE the highest cis female averages. That's a huge difference.

[@ithanil4429]

@@Stalkerfiveo There are a lot more biological differences than just testosterone levels between men and women and, as was presented in the video, science suggests that decreasing the acute T-level might not even decrease performance significantly. It will be extremely difficult to develop a set of rules (I think impossible) to guarantee both true fairness and inclusion for most sports.

[@ambat_]

I say let’s make an open category where anyone that wants to compete, can. This doesn’t have to be the permanent solution, however as more research is done it can be used to make a more fair sport.

[@skippypicasso]

For cycling why not equalize the fields by weight with handicaps accorded by body fat percentage, hemoglobin level, and testosterone? Then everyone can race together and we’ll know who the real winner is.

[@phenax1144]

@@skippypicassopeople really have such a hard time seeing social constructs

[@prestachuck2867]

You should be allowed to give a presentation on the subject to the heads of the UCI and the IOC. This is truly the most balanced and objective assessment of the data on this subject I have ever seen or heard.

[@ruth8967]

Well, um, Dylan is fantastic, but no, those organizations review the entire data set in a much more comprehensive way, and do not depend largely upon only a few articles. They look at everything.

[@marekzmazur2077]

Exactly! Great video! I don't want to raise my daughters in a world where they have to compete against trans-men.

[@ruth8967]

huh? Why would your daughters complete against transmen? Are one of you daughters a transman? I would hope not since you still call them daughters.... Maybe we should be hoping that there is neither gender nor sexual diversity in your family...?

[@sacberr]

Amazing video as always dude! Though this time especially timely and on point!

[@Xylian113]

You cited the Olympic requirements for FTM that declared gender identity should be changed for at least 4 years. However the study you cited only followed people for 12 months. The 4 years is kind of vague, as it doesn't specify whether they have to have been suppressing test for that long. But I'd be curious to know if there are any longer studies, as the study you cited doesn't seem applicable given the requirements set by the Olympics (if they are interpreted as I specified). Given the data presented in the video, I'm left concluding that we simply don't know. It is entirely likely to me that not all physiological parameters respond to a 12 month suppression of test, and that looking at a longer time frame could completely change that. Appreciate the video though :-)

[@ericcoxtcu8037]

Excellent points. As another commenter noted, we also don't really know the effects of kids who start puberty blockers early - they may never have the advantages these studies found in people who transition later. There are still a lot of unknowns; none of the existing research is definitive or final.

[@ChrisCapoccia]

"valuing fairness and inclusion" also for some sports, safety is an extra consideration. for example rugby or boxing

[@jpschlosser]

Great point, and to further evidence it, there was a UFC fight in 2014 where a transwoman broke a “cis” woman’s skull in a fight…

[@SnackMuay]

@@jpschlosser no there wasn’t. The UFC is the premier MMA promotion in the world. Fallon Fox was never on the UFC roster, nor was any other trans woman. Fallon competed in a regional promotion against much poorer competition than the UFC has on their roster. And it’s actually fairly common that part of the skull get broken in MMA, even in the lightest weight classes like women’s strawweight. Ronda Rousey had her jaw broken by Holly Holm, Karolina Kowalkiewicz had her orbital broken by Yan Xiaonan. Fox has only ever fought one woman who made her way into the UFC, and she lost that fight.

[@SnackMuay]

@RegularOldRug there are a lot of “natural clean women” who lose at basketball because they aren’t as tall as other women. There’s lots of cases where someone’s body provides an “unfair” advantage. Banning trans athletes from competition (or maybe specific sports) might make sense, but I think the onus is on those who are opposed to their inclusion to show that trans women are outside the normal range of athleticism that cis women have. HRT does make immense changes to one’s body, so it’s not accurate to just assume trans women are exactly the same to cisgender men. We need more research.

[@brando1937]

After all the controversy over this video I expected things to get a bit spicier. I'm pleasantly surprised this was actually a really rational video.

[@josephmoore8156]

If a trans man is equal to a biological man ,, why are trans men not signing up for contract sports, like football, which I would love to be on the defensive team .

[@gamby16a]

That "no thank you" in the closing clip spoke volumes. Wow. 😮

[@harukrentz435]

Its sad you know that they asked opionion from scientists and politicians but they ask none from people who will be impacted the most from their decisipn, the athletes themselves.

[@stefrost4029]

The first problem here is a big one: An article is not a study - it's an opinion piece - and that article is co-authored by a transphobe (check her Twitter). Though even that opinion piece admitted to finding studies showing up to 12% reduction in muscle mass after 3 years. Multiple systemic reviews find muscle mass continues decreasing over more time. Also, your question should have been whether the attributes mentioned give an advantage at all, not jumping to how much they (supposedly) do. Also no mention of cis women, such as the roughly 10% of women with polycystic ovaries, who have high testosterone levels. The next source of information is a pre-print and hasn't been peer-reviewed (as it literally says on there) - plus it's by the co-author of the aforementioned opinion piece. 23 participants... Really? Then you go back to the opinion piece. Then we finally get a peer-reviewed article, but you dismiss that one - not because it has 8 people in it (or you'd have known to not cite the one with 24), not because it only looked at 12 months, but because the study itself recognised it could have been better and because of that opinion piece again. It, and you, also fail to account for people who have been on puberty blockers and/or transitioned early. Inclusion vs fairness may not be the actual question; you're begging the question again. Plus, given that trans women are not "male to female", but actually are "biological women" (because neuroscience, for starters), it should be noted that any perceived 'unfairness' because a woman happens to have been a trans woman (it's not like it's some choice) is actually no different to a cis woman having any other advantage because of being born with differing genes that made her taller or anything else conferring an advantage. Black people tend to produce higher levels f testosterone than white people; do they need medicating or putting into separate categories? What about skier, Eero Mäntyranta (a cis man) who has a genetic condition that means he produces more red blood cells but its still allowed to compete? With all respect, I think you were out of your depth here.

[@ruth8967]

Finally! An educated person on here!

[@ehthrough]

I think you nailed it with the question of inclusion versus fairness. The two sides are yelling at each other defending completely different points.

[@DavidW-ng5zv]

It's funny how you only ever see people arguing that it's unfair for MTF to compete and not the other way around... I wonder why.

[@cjohnson3836]

Because biological males don't sacrifice anything by competing with transmales. Not really a hard question to answer.

[@DavidW-ng5zv]

​@@cjohnson3836 well, because obviously biological males aren't at any disadvantage and trans men are at a severe one.

[@crbondur]

I appreciate how you relied on studies to develop your opinion. And I think you've stated more clearly the challenge between fairness and inclusion than any other place I've seen. Thanks.

[@S.Frankl]

Excellent video, Dylan. This matter isn't going away. The video begs the question of where to go from here. It's time for professional sports to step up and recognize that no one discipline will have the ability to strongly lead. While WADA has its issues, the model of a universal, international team across sport should be developed to start a 1,2, 5, 10-year plan for moving forward, beyond narrowly ignorant testosterone values. It needs to begin to fund serious science around the question in order to balance the social and scientific factors of trans-persons in sport. Trans in sport isn't going away, nor will participation wait for perfect data, yet we need to recognize that study is needed. Balancing fairness and inclusion in one year will look different than in 10; a dynamic and informed/ing process is desperately needed. We cannot expect some magical study that answers the question of fairness, but rather, that the evolution of participation needs to be informed by active, broadly supported, and transitional inquiry. Suffice it to say, in 50 years we will have (better have) a radically different baseline of understanding...and we need to push towards it.

[@AmandaHugandKiss411]

There is a reason, for example, why we have age classes in sports or in boxing size/weight classes. Remember when they started the Special Olympics (and jump all over me for the comparison as those athletes today are called differently abled). It gave a fair playing field for athletes that had disabilities to engage in sports and follow their dreams). Before that, there was a time when girls weren't even allowed to play sports in schools therefore didn't have opportunities to even enter into competitive sports. But then times changed and girls were allowed to play sports on girl's teams to give the equal opportunity to pursue sports and this opened up for girls competing against a fair playing field in professional and the Olympics. We forget that during that time woman had to advocate for young girls and faced old outdated views on females in sports. They eventually were heard and this changed the face of sports forever and woman athletes were given the validation of being true athletes and follow their dreams. But make no mistake, originally, there was huge debate on if they were "truly" athletes. Some of the male backlash wast "why should she get a gold meddle if I finished with those statistics as a male I wouldn't qualify ". So very similar arguments were made and at first woman and girls were not even taken seriously for their achievements. Then eventually this changed the face of sports in a significant way. So today we sit here. I am a woman and I do believe that being transgender is valid and should have opportunities to be allowed to compete in sports. But on a fair playing field. I think we need to stop fighting and look at this objectively. Just like we did in the passed and maybe it is time to change the face of sports in a fair and meaningful way. I know my next suggestion is going to upset people, just like when 1st we created woman's competitive sports and when we created the Parasports formally called the Special Olympics. We could have sports for transgender persons. If the name of what this eventually gets called to be respectful. I think the transgender community should decide what this type of sports should be called. This would allow for MORE transgender persons to compete. It would also allow transgender males a more even playing field. Which in this hot topic, who seem to be forgotten, sadly. Of course people are going to be up and arms with this type of sports league(s), training and competition to begin to take shape and develop. But this is how it was for women and persons with disabilities. Instead of dragging this out, we can learn from history of the changes and challenges of those fundamentally major changes in sports and just accept that transgender persons should have the right to compete IN a FAIR playing field. This isn't about segregation or outing or discrimination or transphobia. It is about providing EQUAL opportunity including transgender males to train and compete in sports. We have made huge changes to sports in the past when major changes in society's views changed and we can do it again, successful. We need to be respectful AND reasonable. Woman should not have to face their validity in the sports world all over again. It is the wrong approach and does not, in the long run, help or support athletes. The transgender community is going to have to realize that proper change takes time, that is just reality. And understand that they will have to advocate, but they should realize what it is at the end of they day they want and how to accept that the fair solution for all people, may not be exactly what they like but that the reality is changes happen when REAL solutions are presented. And look towards proper constructive solutions instead of making this about transphobia or being about exclusion but what realistically does the right to compete looks like for fairness and inclusion to play and compete in sports.

[@danchinoloves7804]

Well said I didn't agree at the beginning but when explained in context of history of sport it makes total sense it really does. Everything starts off small but I believe more trans people would probably get back into sport or try it out. This really needs to be taken seriously so trans men finally have fairness in their chosen sport 💯👏🏾

[@Pistawork57]

Best comments/analysis I heard bar none and I’ve been dealing with or seeking information on this issue for 15 years. Good job.

[@kcanderson12]

Amazing video! One item I never see brought up is that if an athlete is caught taking TRT or other PEDs it's an automatic four year ban. Such as Shelby Houlihan getting caught on nandrolone, which is basically testosterone. But a trans woman only has to have 12 months of reduced testosterone. Shouldn't the reduced testosterone be in place for four years in order to be equal to the doping ban?

[@greghidalgo6781]

Can women doping on t, "tansmen", compete with men? No. So even getting juiced up women can't compete at the upper echelons of men but allowing a man who couldn't cut it at the top tier drop down to jv, women's leagues, is somehow even an argument?

[@NewEnglandDirtRoadie]

kind of funny how there doesn't seem to be any FtM athletes who are shrieking, "... LET ME COMPETE WITH MY OWN GENDER CATAGORY !!!! "

[@fredrikbengtsson8458]

@@NewEnglandDirtRoadie thats because there aren't any internet warriors shrieking about not allowing them to compete with their own gender category...

[@matthewcrave7118]

Thanks for wading into this minefield of controversy with your evidence based and objective approach. I appreciate hearing the research, as limited as it is and agree that these rules need to be revisited with more research in hand.

[@85parrot]

Really difficult situation. I feel for all involved, but it seems very unlikely the majority of sports can be fairly competed with just 2 categories. Just like for disabled athletes, it seems like a separate category for transgender athletes is needed to level the field, unless there is good proof that there is no advantage. Intersex individuals i.e a female with naturally very high testosterone, are again a difficult category, but given this is a naturally occurring advantage i think it is more akin to the natural physical advantage of some other athletes e.g Phelps huge arm span or Usain Bolt's crazy physique, and should be allowed to compete in the female category (if this is the gender they associate with most). I'm not sure shoehorning transgender athletes into an inappropriate category with the aim of acceptance is actually going to help matters in the long run.

[@PsyX99]

What do we do about basket ball ? Being taller makes you better.

[@85parrot]

@@PsyX99 what do you mean "what do we do?". Nothing - being tall is a natural advantage.

[@mikem.s.1183]

"Some of these differences can be mitigated by hormonal therapy". Well, mitigated is not ELIMINATED. In a British and Australian debate program on TV senior scientists stated that the mitigation can go as far as 25 to 40%. That means man to female athletes still have a clear advantage even after one or more years of hormone therapies. It would also be interesting to see how big an impact on performance would a full reduction of muscle mass advantage and a 100% achievement of fat body mass (ie, the same level of fat women athletes have on average) have. The performance of professional male athletes suffers greatly when muscle mass is below a certain threshold, and we all know how professional footballers with 5% more body fat than normal cannot compete at all with other footballers in good shape (I recall the case of Higuain who routinely came back from holidays with 5 to 10 kgs above season weight and what doctors explained in terms of the bias towards injury, increased recovery time, etc, that represented. Something tells me that, in order for women to accept competing against transgender women, the latter would have to give up entirely on the muscle and body fat advantages - and that would effectively neutralise the advantages of transitioning to women's sports they seek.

[@andyzhang5201]

Hey Dylan, there’s an argument that you didn’t address in your video. It seems that most or all of the studies composed of average trans women and average cis women, none of them were competitive athletes themselves. With that being said, there is a serious sampling bias. When we are trying to determine how to let trans women compete in sports, it doesn’t matter if the average trans woman has stronger legs than the average cis woman. Professional athletes are inherently NOT average: they are inherently genetic anomalies, the 0.1% of the population blessed with a natural advantage they have attained through no effort of their own. Is the average trans woman stronger than the average cis woman? It doesn’t really matter. Sure, a trans woman might have a higher VO2 max, but in very much the same way Egan Bernal probably has a higher VO2 max purely by virtue of being born at high elevation.

[@andyzhang5201]

There’s also another statistical effect at play here: a smaller population of people will have fewer outliers that will be favorable to competition. And the outliers are really what are important, given we are talking about professional athletes. For example, if you look at competitive chess players, the top-ranking men have consistently higher rankings than the top-ranking women. Is this because women are worse at chess on average? Absolutely not. This disparity at the top level is purely due to the disparity of participation: high-level chess is more than 90% male. Because there are more men competing, the men will have more statistical outliers: the cream-of-the-crop who have the potential to become the best of the best. Because there are fewer women, they have much less chance of getting a statistical outlier on the high end of the skill-level bell curve. In much the same way, there are far more cis women than trans women. Purely by nature of sample size, cis women will have a much higher chance of getting naturally gifted genetic outliers than trans women at top level, which will level the playing field.

[@quarkonium3795]

@@andyzhang5201 Excellent point! There’s been a lot of fear-mongering about transgender athletes, but while they’ve technically been allowed to participate for a few years now, this is the first Olympics where any openly trans women athletes have competed, only one even managed to medal and she did so in a team sport. As far as I know she never even scored a goal for Canada. So far this “dangerous precedent” doesn’t seem very “dangerous”.

[@fredrikbengtsson8458]

@@quarkonium3795 that was not a trans woman (which is a person who was asign male at birth, but now has transitioned to a woman). The football (soccer) player is a person asigned female at birth, who identifies as non binary.

[@whitneypost5590]

Yup - and he mentioned this as a probem with the data in the video, it was a quick comment but he did mention it

[@steveouwerkerk7719]

Excellent video. To solve the fairness and inclusiveness debate there should be separate categories for transgender men and transgender women. Only when that happens are we comparing apples to apples.

[@producersRus]

Thank you for this super interesting piece. I don't have a horse in this race so from my point of view it seems that to achieve high degrees of fairness and inclusion the categorization of athletes should be expanded or re-though. Even before that i think we shouldn't even worry about gender differences outside of the elite athletes. This is not an issue for people where exercise is not their profession.

[@BroJo676]

Men have bigger lungs than women and HRT doesn't reduce the lung volume in transwomen. Larger lungs heighten the oxygenated capacity in an individual because bigger lungs can more rapidly generate oxygenated blood, which is very helpful more muscles while performing physical prowess for an extended period of time. Thereby, men have steadier endurance and steadied stamina than women for something which is absolutely biological and over which none of us has any type of control.

[@db613]

Watch they flag this for abusive content! Don't let them shut you down 🤐, or silence your voice! Keep the truth coming 👍👊

[@JoshuaLTRyan]

Thanks for not letting politics or emotion get in the way of what we know (so far). Well done.