Do Trans Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage? Trans vs Cis Athletes | Middle Ground

[@lauraidiomas9141]

Say it with me: not agreeing with the trans people doesnt mean youre transphobic (unless its something actually transphobic)

[@souu__.]

👏👏

[@AyYoWinston]

Facts

[@antoinjohnson4146]

You’re right lol, disagreeing with Trans and Homosexuals just means we disagree lol, we’re not stopping you from doing what you agree with so why do they care if people disagree and not discriminating. Ps. They should probably form a trans league for the physical sports

[@Aj-cv1jp]

@@antoinjohnson4146 facts

[@Ilikeavocados123]

💅💅💅

[@mballheart]

I feel like the non transgender athletes were holding back or being extremely careful about what they say so that they wouldn’t be labeled transphobic even though almost everything they said makes logical sense. We need to stop labeling people as “phobic” just because they say something that goes against what you think.

[@Markuden]

And thats what they call self censorship and thats when a lot of bad things in history happen.

[@sin9324]

Yup

[@pardalxxx]

thats true. you can see they talk slowly to not say anything offensive. thats why jordan peterson argument is important "In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive"

[@dopeeamin]

Pleaseeee preach this 😩

[@caliginousmoira8565]

preach! teach! enlighten!

[@_bellersss]

I really want to see a part 2 with medical professionals to validate facts, rather than listening to anecdotes

[@ted396]

they can't tell the truth because they're afraid of losing their jobs.

[@gaugelongacre8447]

You're right that is the video we need

[@ozymandias8523]

Not even neil dagrasse tayson can say anything because people will cancel him, imagine a normal doctor he would probably lose his job.

[@unspecifiedunit9126]

@@ted396 Sadly, this is the reality, they have to appeal to the mob. Bringing in medical experts wouldn’t work as you would expect

[@marshaytrue]

I learnt a new word today thank you.

[@nicholassmith5611]

I’d love to see a similar conversation involving biologists, kinesiologists, and other scientists that fully understand and can articulate exactly how transitioning can affect anatomy, body mechanics, strength, stamina, speed and how those things impact competitive balance.

[@michaelknight2897]

The problem is that Progressive scientist will abandon Professionalism, ethics, and truth for their new age religion.

[@leonscott543]

They're too afraid of the social backlash. If the world was normal this issue wouldn't even exist because the scientific community would have laid it to rest before it even began

[@margaritasytcheva2730]

@@michaelknight2897So when an actual professional makes an analysis based on facts and logic but it happens to align with a progressive viewpoint it’s suddenly “abandoning Professionalism?” How convenient. It seems like you’re the type of person who only believes in science when it fits your viewpoint.

[@margaritasytcheva2730]

Exactly. I see too many people making viewpoints on scientific topics who at best read like a few vague articles without researching the topic fully. To be honest, I think this question should only be answered by actual experts and not by neither liberals or conservatives who claim to know biology.

[@michaelknight2897]

@@margaritasytcheva2730 there is no such thing as a Progressive expert. Progressives will abandon professionalism, ethics, and truth for their ideology. We see it daily. That is part of the core problem.

[@newchallenge365]

The problem is they are almost exclusively talking about hormones but that isn't the problem. It's the height, lung function, and bone density. Those don't change upon transition.

[@whitewhitewhite2446]

*vaccine existing* is to *20th booster* AS *running stop signs* is to *T-bone accident*

[@flickoftheforce]

Yeah but don’t some women have these biological advantages aswell? Otherwise there wouldn’t be any competition in sports if everyone was at the same level???

[@whitewhitewhite2446]

@@flickoftheforce eedee

[@sugar-free-2centz]

@@flickoftheforce Some women may have higher levels of x y and z, yes; BUT it will not be many. A huge proportion of men would have the advantage if they transitioned. It's a probability issue.

[@minnie2352]

@@flickoftheforce For sure, but the gap between women and other women is nothing compared to the gap between women and men. Both Serena and Venus Williams lost to a German male tennis player who ranked around 200th in the world - dude didn't even warm up properly, and he beat them both by himself. National women's soccer teams have lost to teenage boys before. The difference is ridiculous, which is why we have divisions separated by sex, because otherwise you'd rarely ever see a woman in sport.

[@briandunlap3243]

"Are we going to put people in their own categories by weight?" Quite literally: yes.

[@alceratops6853]

Imagine a 400 lb strongman against a 130 lb skinny boy in the ring, or vice versa on the track

[@potato_dbd]

​@@alceratops6853 funny story, similar has happened in wresteling some years ago. The strategy of the skinny guy was to exhaust his opponent, and just took him down.

[@the_piper001]

@@potato_dbd was that mma cause in boxing that not gonna work very well

[@potato_dbd]

@@the_piper001 I'm sorry, I have no idea. I've seen in quite a while ago, and I don't care about sports.

[@hikerguy3895]

There is no middle ground. Chicks with d!cks need to stick to male sports

[@sebbywarcraft3398]

Why are we passing this off as a belief and not something that’s based on reality and backed by science?

[@DudesWithACamera]

Because that's not how anatomy and biology work

[@Dubscr]

@@DudesWithACamera it is?

[@MiguelZenin]

EXACLY!

[@StyleS_]

@@DudesWithACamera it literally is 😂🤦🏾‍♂️

[@strangeanimations2518]

Exactly, if people did their research they would know trans people who have been on hormones for a year or more have about the same capacities and hormonal levels as the gender they transitioned to.

[@JungkooksTingTingBall]

Comparing puberty to drinking a protein shake once is actual insanity Ngl

[@bryanhawkins9418]

Thank you. I was going to speak on that statement too. Also, it's dangerous for trans athletes to be outed as trans, therefore let them compete against women?? Horrible logic.

[@johanvoellner1849]

u think?

[@Mark-kq6ye]

they all are

[@liltinglullaby3282]

Alternative title for the video: people trying not to say something that would get them cancelled for 20 minutes straight.

[@pnut3844able]

People need to sack up and not cave smh

[@3choblast3r4]

When that Asian girl said "I don't want you to be put in a separate category because it would make you feel like you were not what you feel you are, but I also don't believe it's fair that trans women are put in the same group as ... uhh.. women" (paraphrasing) There is nothing wrong with saying that trans people should have their own category but she is worried that it might upset some people when she just says it without contradicting her self and making sure she is safe

[@ninjamusic9554]

@@3choblast3r4 trans women should be allowed to compete with cis women. End of story

[@metalmoth6608]

@@ninjamusic9554 No they shouldn't, are you an athlete? I doubt it since your pic is anime

[@MisterParallel]

@@ninjamusic9554 Do you feel that disabled athletes should have to compete against fully abled body athletes. I would hope not because it wouldn't be equal. This is what Cis women are trying to say. Their opinions matter as well. The equal thing would be for trans athletes to compete against trans athletes and they can decide if they want to create two categories for trans men and trans women.

[@bradfoster8146]

"Are we gonna make categories for CIS athletes?" Yes, yes they have actually. Feather weight, heavy weight, etc, you know why? Because of advantages and disadvantages

[@Rein_]

i like to play baskedball but I'm short all tall people have an advantedge for me. Are they going to make a league for short baskedball players?

[@Ardkun00]

We might as well eliminate categories and divisions.

[@user-dj7kc2li4c]

@@Rein_ Maybe they should. Don’t know who would watch it tho. If I recall correctly then midget basketball does exist and you would fit perfectly there! :)

[@spinosaurusstriker]

@@Ardkun00 then most cic males would dominate , and I don't know if that's what you want

[@Ardkun00]

@@spinosaurusstriker That way trans-cheaters won't get anything at the very least.

[@Fodderforthesoul]

Felt like this conversation would've been a lot more productive if there were two athletes and two experts each to represent both sides. Experts would've been better able to address biological differences and the degree to which those differences are tolerable/intolerable for the fairness of sport. I was also surprised at how many agreed that hormone testing is fair given the cis women that were banned for high natural testosterone this past Olympics.

[@MayMayboris]

Yes to everything you said

[@UrbanDecayLova247]

Great point! I appreciated having athletes in this discussion rather than just random people with strong opinions, but there were limitations because of the lack of experts.

[@eklectiktoni]

Exactly, I feel like this conversation really is only meaningful when it's being argued by medical/scientific experts.

[@sunnyboi2461]

Yeah I think a lot of people kind of just look and say "oh trans people have an advantage for so and so reasons" but if your talking about hormones there's cis men that produce high levels of estrogen and cis women that produce high levels of testosterone so it isn't just a trans issue despite what some people believe

[@noelstar1456]

Experts would be afraid of getting cancelled. Every time a study went against the narrative that trans women vs cis women is an even playing field, the ‘scientist’ in question started making up excuses for the trans women... the backwards bending 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@mollyeaton917]

It doesn’t matter how many hours you train, you have a biological advantage!!!!

[@mrsmith7936]

i know that was a mad thing to say, he's training male parts its more of a thing to keep quiet about

[@forkscr3w]

@@mrsmith7936 she*

[@macdeluxe733]

B.... b.... but... you had a protein shake!!!

[@hemlockprimaryschool5890]

This was the most insane comment. Maybe the green haired person doesn’t understand the definition of an advantage.

[@someones_here]

@@macdeluxe733 😭😭

[@MiguelZenin]

Sports are not about feelings… Sports have rules… it’s about being fair and having everyone at the same level

[@Noone-dk5ih]

Sports have never been about fairness, have you as an example heard of basketball

[@madeupname3008]

And this isnt about feelings… its about science…. which concludes that trans athletes are not at an advantage. Don‘t act like transphobia is part of the game, it‘s not.

[@sk0205xx]

Preach it

[@therealgemmacollins2158]

@@madeupname3008 yes

[@Intr0vertical]

@@Noone-dk5ih how is basketball unfair

[@AndreyUrman]

On the one hand, we hear many complaints about Transwomen dominating women's sports, and on the other hand, we hear no complaints whatsoever about transmen dominating men's sports. What does that tell us? It is unfair to put Males and Females on the same playing field even after taking hormones of the opposite sex. The physical differences are still there, and males will always have the advantage.

[@idrizzyt7524]

Isn't it funny how no one replied to the most sain comment on here? Biological men are dominating womens sports but biological women don't even make a dent in mens sports. Case closed your honor.

[@mcdonaldsbrokenicecreammac8561]

True! The fact that those trans women weren't even a thing in men sports but got qualified and entered women sports with no struggle just tells a lot too. We have men and women sports separated for a reason. And these selfish people trying to deny that blindly just for their own feeling

[@Toastroony]

In what world does a woman beat men show me the podium

[@Toastroony]

Also depends some sports can be mixed

[@topaz9655]

@Sharkie he's confused but gots the spirit

[@missthomas8754]

People are doing themselves a HUGE disadvantage by trying to rid of FACTS to make individuals feel better. We have to keep it real at some point.

[@dominiquejacksonn]

You couldn't say it any better. I hate sugarcoating

[@MartaValentin3]

What are the facts? That men are always stronger than women? Honestly this is just not true at all. I literally do better than the majority of the men in my climbing gym.

[@dominiquejacksonn]

@@MartaValentin3 then you're still asleep. It's literally common sense.🤦🏾‍♀️

[@MsDudette21]

@@MartaValentin3 on average men are stronger. regardless, men and women have strength differences because of biological makeup. that cant be ignored. jesus

[@MartaValentin3]

@a_fever_dream ♡ lmao but we aren’t talking about average people are we? We are talking about PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES. so your response means nothing.

[@blk5124]

"It shouldn't matter if your male or female." How can a Trans person say that? Do they not realize the inconsistency in that? The irony?

[@blk5124]

@birthemuller7310 I could not agree more. The whole thing is astounding!

[@donnamarie33]

yeah obvi it matters a great deal in sports. a trans person who transitions and fits in well as the other gender prob won’t have their sex be relevant in a ton of situations but sports is 100% one of them.

[@annaleigh2413]

@birthemuller7310the idea of sex and gender being different is as simple as sex being what someone is born as, while gender being what you identify as. Hence the term “cisgender” meaning identifies as their sex assigned at birth. It has nothing to do with being labeled “male” and “female.” I see a failure in your logic.

[@blk5124]

@MuhammadAnwaar99 how sad to be so lost. It's hard to grasp such strange thinking.

[@dorito4448]

Of course it shouldn't matter in the opportunities you get. That's a very different subject from what way of gender presentation makes you comfortable in your own body and self. Not inconsistent at all

[@Pancajayna]

If we make sports gender neutral, women would lose in about 99% of the cases...

[@miriamgrace4172]

soooo true

[@-tired_plant-878]

Wait what do you mean?

[@Rexyer1]

@@-tired_plant-878 biological advantage

[@Lancaster22]

All of the arguments they had were just anecdotes that said they knew some girls that “kicked ass” but had nothing tangible to back it up

[@Michael-H23]

@Emmy agreed

[@felicityr1024]

Omg comparing a protein shake to having natural male hormones is the most ridiculous thing ever!

[@meowpoosaymeow]

🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵

[@devonmiller113]

Lol it’s literally like saying me taking whey is the same as injecting TRT

[@frishter]

Especially when the "woman" looks nothing like a woman. Of course there's an advantage. If it's the hill they're willing to die on, I think we should really ask whether enabling that behaviour is really healthy for society. If they're in denial of reality when it comes to sport, how else are they denying reality?

[@flare9866]

@@meowpoosaymeow ok i will compare women to crying cuz of ur female hormones.

[@Eryna_]

@@frishter ah yes, my favorite argument, this trans women doesn't look like what I think women look like, therefore they have an advantage in sports. How much you look like stereotypical women doesn't determine your fitness, sorry.

[@alexanthony3171]

They always seem to ignore the argument about transitioning after puberty. They completely disregarded the comments about a larger heart, greater lung capacity, greater bone density.

[@noche5241]

The woman did mention it at a time but later on did not use it again sadly.

[@veRGe02]

Because there is nothing for them to argue against lol, those are just (uncomfortable) facts. They're not medical researchers to know any counter argument papers/science, so they just ignore those points to escape the cognitive dissonance and go back to their favorite talking point.

[@SeasonsOfBlue]

​@SomethingReallyStrange So what's the solution, removing the gender division in sports altogether due to statistical outliers?

[@punjgurl]

@SomethingReallyStrange This is just not true for many trans women athletes. I wish it were true so there wouldn't be a problem!

[@dejuanmoore2064]

@@punjgurl No one ever talks about when trans women athletes lose.

[@lemfitwellness]

This was painful to watch. The non-transgender people were so timid and barely brought up strong points. Push them on their arguments! You can see people are so afraid to say anything to challenge the trans narrative. Put me in the ring on this one.

[@RionPhotography]

There's literally only one thing to talk about, which is male puberty. That's literally the only thing that causes any problems with the concept of trans athletes.

[@wedgeantilles6134]

The downfall if you push hard enough these students have scholarships and could be canceled/kicked out of sports

[@tonyhoffman3309]

Testosterone confers physiological advantage beginning in utero, then again in early childhood when male children go thru prepubertal changes, and in puberty. These physiological differences remain despite cross sex hormones and surgeries.

[@ericshort3374]

@@RionPhotography which is an issue that can’t morally be tackled. Boys can’t make that type of decision before puberty begins, therefore it’s impossible to make it fair in any moral way.

[@jraymond1988]

I'm not sure if you'd win or you'd be so aggressive and cringe that people would stop watching the episode. Jubilee often has 1 or 2 of those per video.

[@vinslungur]

By not having doctors discussing this, Jubilee is only furthering the confusion of the topic. Finding a doctor who denies the advantage of trans competitive athletes could be impossible to find though.

[@KalypsoVega]

Precisely.

[@Dannymuu]

It would be the opposite tho

[@Futurebound_jpg]

True, that’s probably why they didn’t do it

[@aleynademirkilic9038]

I think the purpose of middle ground is to get real, authentic opinions derived from those with a certain experience/knowledge of the subject. However, bringing in professionals such as doctors, blurs the line between opinions and what they believe to be “factual information”.

[@Sweet6T9]

The issue is that not all trans athletes has an inherent physical advantage. Not all trans people are born male, and some trans people start transition BEFORE puberty (which is before the body develops any advantageous or disadvantageous physical traits). That's why you might have a hard time finding a doctor that tells you straight up "trans people, in general, have a physical advantage in competitive sports." Because the answer is more complicated than a simple "yes" or "no."

[@tuanoful]

"sports should be gender neutral" No, just no. At elite levels, women would rarely win. In some sports, never, in others, little and in very very few sports, yes. Agreeing with this is just naïve and woke for the sake of being woke. If you want to do mixed, fine, like team racing (equal men, equal women), archery, fine. But, for example, contact sports where size is important, no, it just wont work.

[@maryeagle1324]

I agree!

[@lockandloadlikehell]

*never win Let them do it; not a trans ♀️ in the world will be able to compete with actual elite level ♂️s- which is the whole point

[@mioszwojtyga5100]

they wanna be so woke and help the woman compete at higher levels or with an but they don't see that its damaging to them as well, less woman would overall win meaning they would get less recognition and earn less etc

[@MartaValentin3]

Why not do it based on weight and height?

[@bakedbean1232]

At elite levels women would not even be in the equation anymore. Making sports gender neutral immediately destroys the chance for a woman to become an elite athlete for 90% of sports

[@marcys_space6]

It sucks no one mentioned how menstrual and ovulation cycles plays a major role on athletic performance. There’s nothing to talk about here lol

[@GrzlyBore]

Half of the arguments in the video ignores science all together, lol.

[@sleeplesshead602]

Makes you drained and tired all day easily 🥲

[@serenas.3574]

exactly what i was thinking

[@caliginousmoira8565]

what... you can't speak truth on the internet... write a book instead.... ;)

[@yassin.o.a8907]

Oh they don’t care about that it’s all about feelings over here no logic at all menstrual cycle doesn’t exist

[@nathanc30]

I'm going to scream if someone else says "only 1 trans athlete was a champion". Lia Thomas was not the only champion. Several and I mean several high school track, rugby, biking ,wrestling have been champions over the course of five years. There aren't that many trans women, but by percentage they represent a huge portion of winners in half a decade. We have to look at worldwide data and at all levels. Not just college and pro. Development matters because they are the future college and pro athletes.

[@og_neso]

People need to stop using examples like "this girl in my high school beat all the guys in a sport" or "I'm trans and I didn't get a scholarship" as an argument for a huge debate like this

[@vacantandstainedd]

Literally not a debate. It's middle ground. The point is to hear the other side out.

[@LoomiYT]

can you provide the reason why?

[@beckyp2944]

@@LoomiYT because they are personal experiences that are not and can not be generalized to other. But facts, stats and studies can be.

[@Shosty-ol6pc]

Yeah, of course there will be a girl that beats all the guys somewhere. But on average, that’s really rare and it’s not an argument

[@Alex_Aramayo]

Funny thing is that it was all anecdotal for the trans side, as well as non professional athletes in hs ms etc

[@MishyKitty]

I really wish there was better casting on this episode considering how important this conversation is. The trans athletes didn’t respond to any of the valid points the other side made and it made the whole conversation really one sided. It amazes me that the trans athletes in this video completely denied any advantages/disadvantages that they might have because they are trans. Sports are not about gender, they are about sex (has nothing to do with what you identify as but has everything to do which your biology). It would be like going to a doctor as a trans person and them treating you as your gender without taking into consideration how your biology might affect the treatment plan. People nowadays are so concerned with feelings they forget to consider the facts and science.

[@joeldonadio1732]

This^

[@sadudas11]

Fuck I want to like that a hundred times. What’s at the end of this road?

[@l.ishfaq5194]

We're evolving... . . Just backwards

[@MishyKitty]

​@Pink Velvet It's an important conversation because it's a current issue and most people don't know if the facts outweigh the moral dilemma of the situation. It might be common sense for you, but clearly not for everyone if people are still debating the issue. You are not the only one who would be involved in the conversation and it seems very self centered to say that the whole conversation is unimportant because "it's common sense" in your mind.

[@JadaKingdom971]

Everything is true is this. There was literally no other side in this debate LOL

[@marshavilkas3512]

As a medical student, I was taught that are differences between biological sex and gender. My school teaches us how to approach transgender health, but at the same time, if you are a trans woman, for example, you are still more likely to get lung cancer and colon cancer like a biological male. Changing your gender does not change your sex chromosomes. Hence, we are taught to approach treatment based on biological sex in certain cases and gender in other cases. The same thing definitely applies to sports as well. It's important to have equality and recognize someone by their gender. But regardless of gender, a person's biological sex will also play a huge role in their strength as well as the medical problems they are more likely to face.

[@pnut3844able]

Sorry but all that matters is the truth, what you're born as. If you want to pretend to be something else, go ahead. I'm not gonna lie to make you feel better though.

[@fathergascoigne6104]

Trans players perform the same as cisgender players

[@pnut3844able]

@@fathergascoigne6104 factually incorrect

[@Ahjusshi_Brown]

Well said. I come from the same place and was struggling how to put it into words.

[@khaotic8]

@@fathergascoigne6104 what sport are u watching? Bcuz in boxing, you're incorrect, in track, youre incorrect, in weight lifting, You're incorrect. What sport are u speaking on?

[@kw-yb2ed]

you can’t even argue that trans women have an advantage in sports, it’s a fact 😃

[@sullivanbiddle9979]

transtifa doesn't care about facts

[@thehankvoight]

Correct, opinions can be argued and debated. Facts are not up for debate. They are a constant, NOT a variable.

[@finnsol]

Jubilee dropped the ball on this one by not throwing a doctor on both sides. That would be more interesting imo

[@TheNinjapancake14]

Doctor athletes?

[@WoodiePlays]

Cause there's no doctors available on the trans side LMAO

[@enriquedp9356]

@@jas-vr7hx don’t bring gay people into this. We are not one in the same and it’s tiring. You want to debate trans stuff keep it to trans people and not gay people. We have different goals in society.

[@user-hq5ge5qj4k]

@@jas-vr7hx why include us everywhere with you trans?i personally don't associate with lgbt community,most of us don't care that much about trans and don't want to be included with them(maybe drag queens care).Stop throwing homophobic everywhere and include us with trans,we don't like it a lot.

[@MartaValentin3]

Did you know that much of the research do that compares men and women is still based on sexist instead of facts?

[@honestlyspeaking4210]

This really sucks because the women who actually tried to stand her ground had to tiptoe around in effort to not hurt the feelings of the other speakers.

[@vinessawess4401]

She wasn't tip toeing around the Trans to avoid hurting their feelings she was walking on eggshells to protect herself from getting cancelled, harassed, bullied online and called a Bigot..or Transphobe!!!!!!

[@vinessawess4401]

But ...youre absolutely right though when you said this sucks!!!!!😩 it really does

[@npcimknot958]

Notice that this is always the women that will be the loser in this. This only helps men - bio or trans.

[@dilanrae5417]

How do you know she wasn't just trying to be respectful towards trans people? And why does basic respect and empathy "suck" in your eyes?

[@dorinayelha9270]

@@npcimknot958 yeah i think the same and that’s really sad

[@zachzach7651]

I support trans rights but the advantage is clear and it’s delusional to think otherwise.

[@machinismus]

Same. I feel like trans athletes are just fresh outta luck unless they're reflex and prescision-focused rather than a strength-focused athlete.

[@skylarwright6019]

I think there is a potential for advantage. Biology is inherently unfair. The complexity in categorizing the functionality of a person is drastically more important even if it’s not initially clear. If your deciding to limit the ambition of a vulnerable population.

[@fwoop4848]

Exactly. Sometimes facts need to come before feelings

[@yonblek4542]

Sports statistics prove it undeniably. How often does a new athlete enter a new sport division and immediately do incredibly well and dominate it ? Not very often. Unless you're the trans athlete in which case it is almost every time.

[@nobodythatyouknow305]

It’s not tho…

[@xoxo_dd886]

I feel so bad for these natural athletes who are soo damn careful with what they say so they won't be labeled as 'pHoBiC' how ridiculous and messed up that people continuously refer to people as 'pHoBiC' just because they disagree with what u agree

[@donnamarie33]

ppl will call other trans ppl who disagree transphobes 😭

[@Itsjustgavinidk]

did ya run the word "phobic" through a random lettercase generator or something my boy?

[@rigdby]

@@donnamarie33 yes, because trans people can be transphobic. just like how gay people can be homophobic.

[@Moonlight-řæven]

@@rigdbylmao that makes no sense. How are you going to be transphobic but still transition? How are you going to be homophobic but still be gay? An actual homophobic person will shove those urges down as deep as they can. Just because someone says something you don’t agree with, doesn’t mean they’re all of a sudden all of the “phobics” no you can not be gay and homophobic or trans and be transphobic

[@schleepycat]

Seems like there should have been a distinction between "Sports" VS "competitive sports". Everyone should can enjoy sports regardless, but how we judge high-level athletes in a competitive and professional setting is very different. Only Howard seemed graze at that topic when he spoke about legislation and regulations.

[@poocrayon4588]

Maybe it’s not fair but so many female sports stars have been quitting lately, perhaps it’s time to flood women’s sports with XY women because XX women aren’t tough enough to hack the pressure.

[@blappichulo9015]

@@poocrayon4588 which female stars are you referring to? I'm not being antagonistic (I am very critical of trans athletes in sports) and I wouldn't be surprised, but this is news to me

[@sahara.5208]

@@poocrayon4588 what the hell is that argument? 🤨

[@TTCanadaJapan]

@@blappichulo9015 Well there was a 2 or 3x women champ in marathon or smth and she got aced by a trans who was just rank 300 before transitioning and never competed again. But yeah it's the only one i know, so it's not really a big thing where many women r leaving, but it does and did happen.

[@athenskrg5451]

Yes

[@bobsiyt6548]

I have a Trans friend... she brought this topic up and asked my opinion (without telling me her opinion first)... I didn’t want to possibly offend her, so I said, “I don’t know?” She then proceeded to say, of course it’s an advantage and isn’t fair for the other cis women that play. This really isn’t a case of being transphobia - it’s common sense.

[@iristhesc9792]

It’s not really the arguments that people have a problem with, it’s the way you say it. The people in the video were rly respectful, but there are people who straight up say “men that want to be women” when talking about trans women in womens sports.

[@iristhesc9792]

@Vou h amab (assigned male at birth) people who want to play women’s sports. Trans women are women, cause gender is in the brain and not the body.

[@ezpeasy3967]

@@iristhesc9792 snowflake

[@ezpeasy3967]

@@iristhesc9792 snowflake

[@geemo4284]

@@iristhesc9792, I agree, there needs to be a respectful discourse when discussing something that is such a sensitive subject.

[@rachelmazza4079]

My male partner and I, a female, started going to gym at the same time. We did the same workouts for the same amount of time and ate all the same things (we live together). Starting from both of us not going to the gym for over a year and both being naturally thin people with a three inch height difference and a weight difference of 10lbs, he quickly surpassed my lifting abilities. Males are just naturally stronger 9/10 times when put up against a female of the same/similar height and weight. It’s not transphobic, it’s just the way our bodies differ

[@ElHal04]

exactly, and taking hormones wont change trans people enough to make the gender differences negligible

[@DjurslandsEfterskole]

Males are naturally stronger because of testosterone. That is why athletes take testosterone as steroids to get an advantage. Trans women lose significant muscle mass and strength with testosterone blockers, and trans men gain. Same way cis women gain muscle mass and strength when they take steroids.

[@ElHal04]

@@DjurslandsEfterskoletestosterone isn’t just for muscle mass. Either way, hormone replacement isn’t enough because u cant change bone structure/ density

[@DampLover]

@@DjurslandsEfterskole You should take a day and read up on this whole subject since you´ve made it very clear that you lack alot of knowledge in this.

[@rachelmazza4079]

@@jessicadixon6815 No, indeed he is not. It would interesting to know how long it takes muscle mass to deteriorate due to estrogen after going through male puberty while continuing to train at the same level as you did pre HRT. I think thats a big part of things, we don't know the science for sure yet so naturally, people are extra skeptical.

[@EmoEmu]

Feelings don't override reality. You don't get to abuse women athletes just because you feel like it.

[@ScreamTatumRiley]

Hah?

[@rigdby]

lol whatever that means

[@anotherinternetidiot6300]

​@@rigdbyit means that completely altering a female space for a bio male is sexist. Same misogyny, different face.

[@treyymacc]

Agreed feeling like your a woman and actually being a woman is 2 completely different things its sad when us straight individuals are forced to play into someone's mental illness

[@MissionTapasya]

Hye guys,please help me form my opinion based on logic and facts I have a question,i stumbled upon a video,where an argument was made that even differences races have different bone density,so why all men teams are not segreted So does anyone has a strong counter argument for that? Please provide factual,and scientific approach to the argument Thanks in advance

[@JustSomeLint]

"If you truly believe that transwomen have an advantage even with hormones, means that you believe that transmen have a disadvantage, even with hormones." Yes. Afton, that's exactly it.

[@Andres64B]

No, that's not what it means. Biology is baked in, especially after puberty. So a male who decides that he wants to transition to female doesn't completely undo everything that has happened prior in his life simply by taking hormones. In the same regards, a female doesn't gain all of the advantages that a male had when he went through puberty. Biology is baked in regardless of whether you take hormones or not.

[@lanced1265]

Well, yes, top trans men athletes have a disadvantage against top cis male athletes. But that has more to do with the athletic gap between males and females than anything else.

[@JustSomeLint]

@@Andres64B That's what Afton said, which is what I agree with. I don't see your point.

[@Andres64B]

@@JustSomeLint If that's what Afton is actually saying, then it's an argument against letting Afton play against or with women. Why would that argument be made? It's counterproductive. It's essentially admitting "I have an advantage". Anyone born a male, like Afton, has an advantage despite taking hormones. And, anyone born a female has a disadvantage, despite taking hormones. That's an absolutely clueless argument to make.

[@JustSomeLint]

@@Andres64B Afton was saying that sardonically because that wasn't an argument she believed. I don't disagree with your point about biology setting puberty in at a certain point in *an* individuals life. The statement that Afton made, that she didn't mean, is saying "if you think transwomen have an advantage *then that* means that you think transmen have a disadvantage" doesn't counter anything that you've said. Or anything that you, or I believe. But it does counter Afton's belief. Which is why she said it not only in the manner she did, but with the larger context she had said it with. edits in **

[@CookieJessiee]

Having an advantage doesn’t mean you will always win, but it means that your opponent’s chances of winning are diminished. So yes, physical ability in most sports can or not be an advantage to you. My problem with how they are arguing their points is that they are basing them on feelings and not facts. I get that trans women feel attacked when involving sports, but unfortunately, it is an unfair playing field.

[@huu5807]

Love this comment. It is straight to the point and still respectful

[@FreakigesSternchen]

i mean… a cis woman who’s taller and has naturally more muscle mass or testosterone will have an advantage over most cis women but that’s not a reason to ban her from the sport

[@CookieJessiee]

@@FreakigesSternchen cis women who have higher testosterone levels than the normal, are also banned from certain categories

[@FreakigesSternchen]

@@CookieJessiee And do you support that?

[@CookieJessiee]

@@FreakigesSternchen it doesn’t matter whether I do or not, my comment wasn’t on that 😅

[@alanchen7421]

Watching with a open mind, but the protein shake comparison doesn’t click to me. Like you drink it and it goes away. Doesn’t bone density and structure you gained before transition never lost?

[@JAYDEEPS0LANK1]

Yup i think cis athletes were hesitating or someone should've pointed out how illogical that sounds

[@temitrite]

It's like drinking protein shakes every day and your body takes in the protein effects but then you stop and it slowly goes away (hormonal changes only)

[@Jovviial]

In terms of density, I know for trans women that doesn't change, but I'm honestly not 100% sure about the structure, I think if you take hrt early enough that could still change

[@JordannGeorge]

i think some of it is lost but definitely not all. even if it all was, transwomen still have larger organs, contributing to their advantage.

[@cloutier170]

they were talking about hormone levels not bone density

[@No_step_on_snake]

“I don’t care if it’s unfair for you, as long as MY feelings don’t get hurt.” -The entire trans sports community

[@mikekwon4439]

“I don’t care if it’s unfair for you, as long as MY feelings don’t get hurt.” - The entire cis sports community. It’s the same argument either way. Feelings will get hurt regardless of how this decision comes down.

[@No_step_on_snake]

@@mikekwon4439 do you mean regular people when you say cis?

[@kefkapalazzo1]

@@mikekwon4439it’s not unfair to them lol it’s totally fair. It’s just not inclusive

[@anonymousanonymous2319]

@@mikekwon4439 but it's not unfair for trans people

[@ryanthomas9306]

@@mikekwon4439that’s some narcissism there

[@gs4431]

Sports are not segregated by gender identity, they're segregated by biological sex. This debate's completely flawed until people find a way to change their sex

[@VictorMatthieu]

Transitioning changes 4/5 of a person's biological sex, if they end up doing what cis people think of as a "full" transition. The only thing that currently can't be changed is chromosomes and those aren't particularly important in your overall physical makeup

[@alizap_9105]

@@VictorMatthieu and their bone density, lung capacity, heart size, wingspan, etc. :)

[@dontbother9473]

@@VictorMatthieu If you can’t change your chromosomes you can’t change a single step LOL. You’re lucky if you can transition 1/1 billion

[@scottbecker4367]

@@VictorMatthieu chromosomes are literally the only things that are important to your make up. You have to stop their gene products to fully transition.

[@1000OtherFoxes]

@@VictorMatthieu Chromosome are super important, every new cell your body produce is either male or female, people transitionning will have to take hormones for the rest of their lives because without them they will come back to what they were biologically, you just can't change your biological sex once and for all. I think that's also why you have so many trans detransitionning they just realize they'll never become a fully functional being of the opposite sex.

[@johnathandang1161]

1. Testosterone and a protein shake are definitely different. 2. A lot of these trans athletes ideals are very emotion based not scientific.

[@webbyxddd9871]

Facts. Facts>feelings

[@gametime2473]

A lot of EVERYONE'S ideals are emotion based so what point are you making?

[@kylesnyder799]

@@gametime2473 I don't believe you don't understand what point he's trying to make. I don't believe that's an intellectually honest question. Unless you're going to say you don't believe that the vaccine mandates are alright? That we shouldn't listen to the science and encourage the vaccine and that companies can't mandate the vaccine because it goes against their ideals. Just seems strange to me the ven diagram of people who believe that trans women should be able to compete in women sports and those telling people to listen to the science, trans women are inherently given an advantage in sports are two totally separate circles...which kinda highlights the absurdity of this discussion.

[@t_chico929]

exactly

[@bobdylan5127]

Their entire decision making is dominated by their emotions, hence the transition.

[@n.m.9938]

The (cis) guy is thinking in long-term and not just "here and now"...or "feelings". He has presented quite solid arguments very calmly

[@bigmarv5656]

Agreed. Very pleasant to watch

[@maheshwariswarnima7644]

+1

[@cheezers1385]

agreed.

[@AyubuKK]

I agree

[@FooeyMcgooey]

Because that's how this conversation should be viewed. The two actual tran athletes are going what they feel rather than seeing the reality of who really has the disadvantage.

[@The_fun_fam]

As a woman we basically have our hormones all over the place due to periods and pregnancy the fact that this persons levels will stay the same show that it’s not natural at all

[@frenchgirl5878]

Yeah, it’s not natural. That’s the whole point. They act like hormones are those magical pills that turn them into females, as if our hormones are the only thing that make us women.

[@annaagapova3583]

And it is an advantage as well. Being consistent with hormones is an advantage wether they like it or not

[@jimmyhyun8546]

All the trans-athlete's arguments are disingenuous. They never addressed any of the Asian girl's initial arguments.

[@pnut3844able]

Bc they can't and they know it. Therefore they deflect and change the subject

[@atropabelladonna3120]

It's called deflection, its really not in their best interest to answer her questions because they will just lose.

[@CJKows]

Deflecccccccctionnnnn

[@ninjamusic9554]

Tbh, the Asian girls argument only applies on trans women. It's far fetched to say trans people have advantage in sport because trans men exist too and they have disadvantage competing against cis men. Also, just because trans women are usually slightly taller and more muscular than cis women, it doesn't mean they actually have advantage in sport. If we want to make sports really fair, we would have excluded 6ft height women from a woman team with average 5ft height. But we don't do that because we just accept that some women are taller than other women. So, why should there be an issue if there's a trans woman with 6ft height in sports, if the difference of height can be tolerated among women ?

[@thelordoftime803]

@@ninjamusic9554 Nobody is arguing over the advantage of trans men, only of trans women, OBVIOUSLY. Also, weight and height are probably the lowest impact factors that give trans women advantages. Muscle density is 100% an unfair advantage. Start using your decaying brain before it's too late.

[@B_27]

When Afton compared drinking a protein shake to hormone treatment I had to laugh, that is such a ridiculous comparison! Also, recognising that trans women have advantage does NOT mean I am okay trans men having a disadvantage. I don't know what the solution is here but to deny the facts is not it.

[@Random-sk6hm]

I feel like whichever side you're on, everyone knew that his analogysecond

[@miguelgutierrez3720]

The solution is to have Trans individuals in specific sports such as boxing mma or sports where physical attributes play a major role in the sport they play now sports where it is more like Nascar or other sports the like then you can have those sports being gender neutral

[@B_27]

@@miguelgutierrez3720 So Trans people should only be allowed to play certain "gender neutral" sports but should be denied others? I don't think so.

[@B_27]

@@MistaTamilan How am I being transphobic? I am clearly advocating for equity as much as possible but I acknowledge it is a complicated issue that I don't have a perfect solution for. You need to learn the meaning of transphobic before you start throwing it around. It's kinda toxic _and_ embarrassing.

[@clemenciaharmon1753]

@@MistaTamilan B isnt being transphobic this is a tough situation as a female that lifts and studies biology there is physical differences between male bodies amd female bodies that hormones and surgery cant change that and makes playing certain sports just unfair

[@monkeyjosh]

I'm part of the LGBTQ+ but they obviously do have an advantage. Higher muscle density and larger heart and lungs, that doesn't go away with transitioning. I feel like a category should be put in for all genders to compete that way trans athletes can fairly compete without an advantage. It would also allow non-binary people and other genders to compete too

[@leohaddad6106]

Some LGBT want straight people acceptance so badly

[@advendale9119]

@@leohaddad6106 another gay guy calling other gay guys “pick me gays” when they have an acknowledgment and respect of a scientific reality. Imagine calling gay guys who so tactfully and respectfully propose trans leagues (a medium ground where no one is disadvantaged) as “desperate for straight acceptance”. Don’t you ever get tired? Also, a lot of LGB never agreed to being lumped in with the T but no one wants to have that conversation...

[@monkeyjosh]

@@leohaddad6106 I don't care about "straight acceptance", I'm just able to acknowledge the scientific facts

[@leohaddad6106]

@@monkeyjosh just STFU Dave Rubin

[@calebilhan3669]

You are not LGBT stop lying !

[@curtisclevenger8800]

Leah Thomas was ranked 523 as a male one year later he transitioned and was ranked #1 in women’s. That’s all you need to know. Please show me a weightlifting record for men and women that is really close to each other. I’ll wait.

[@nissi5522]

The cis athletes were trying to be as reasonable as possible by giving arguments that generally applies to all athletes while the transgender athletes were just being anecdotal most of the time.

[@evelynbustos7313]

Because it's important to communicate and understand

[@SydneyScream]

Not true. The cis athletes coudln't even come up with a reason as to why trans men shouldn't compete with cis men

[@DrReddit]

@@SydneyScream that's because they'd be labeled as transphobic if they said what was actually on their mind

[@lmaohahaha8539]

@@SydneyScream Maybe they weren’t trying to get canceled

[@joeyluckey4900]

@@SydneyScream because they used to be females and they have female bonestell for anything goes wrong that's going to be a lawsuit for no reason just like when it comes to the trans females playing for the female teams it's not going to be fair

[@Joemaniac]

It's weird how society today just ignores ,downplays biology to such degrading levels, and I felt so many participants here were so afraid of putting the facts without being offending. What kind of foolery are we heading towards.

[@whitewhitewhite2446]

*vaccine existing* is to *20th booster* AS *running stop signs* is to *T-bone accident*

[@yyyxx-p2v]

It's the day and age we are living nowadays, you can't disagree with anyone

[@mscutie-rd3vn]

Facts!!!!

[@elizabethchwakanowski5067]

Great

[@is8662]

society is doomed, we can't even stand for ourselves now, they're forcing their beliefs on us, yet a lot of people were so afraid to speak for themselves

[@criticalsting]

Trying to cater to everyone's feelings isn't the magical utopia people think it is.

[@ryanrios7155]

Facts!!

[@saturatedcranium]

The reality is that not everyone can be included.

[@bafoonerysamurai6911]

It’s not even physically possible

[@omarfarique6304]

I think it was Trevor Noah or someone who said imagine if Michael Jordan identifies himself as a female and joins the female NBA. Although this is not Michael Jordan but we are getting to see the effects of men joining female side of the sports.

[@adio8824]

@@omarfarique6304 noo. Wasn’t Trevor Noah. It’s was Dave chapel

[@Chunkywhop]

All this showed me was that the non trans folks walk on eggshells to avoid being labeled a bigot.

[@envyshania4439]

By the logic of the trans group, there shouldn’t be a special Olympics

[@beansontoast8819]

Special Olympics?

[@deadguy718]

Most of them belong in the special Olympics tbh.

[@brandihansen6474]

The special Olympics allows many people with different abilities and disabilities compete one another. It aligns with the transgender group???

[@sorchaoreilly2633]

You mean paralympics. Paralympics could be used as a template to create fairere sports for everyone. It has tonnes of different categories based on body differences. The special olympics isn't about physical ability or disability at all, only cognitive impairment and luck. The Special olypic athletes don't have qualifier competitions, they have a LOTTERY to pick who gets to go!! I knew one who trained HARD at swimming at a mainstream level for many years and he wasn't picked from the lottery. They picked his name out for golf so sent him to play that.

[@alp2610]

15:44 A little girl winning against little boys isn’t a valid reason to make sports gender neutral. A little kid hasn’t gone through puberty yet, that’s why there’s NO advantage. The boys after puberty would have won against her

[@Andesu]

Agreed. I think the issue is that, ironically, this individual has conflated gender and biological sex.

[@CB-vq1cv]

Not even true! Even in elementary school their are still some noticeable differences in athletic ability between the boys and girls. Not as much as say between two high schoolers who have gone through puberty, but definitely still a difference.

[@milliontimes1674]

@@CB-vq1cv A MASSIVE difference after puberty.

[@destineewilson1983]

Depends on the level of training.

[@charlibravo371]

Spot on, also a girl will reach puberty before a boy, so you can't compare kids.

[@OutlawSlayer]

Having a trans league isn’t wrong. There are Paralympic leagues for paraplegic. Why? Because it’s an even playing field

[@fathergascoigne6104]

Trans players are at the same level as cisgender players

[@Chrisaveri]

@@fathergascoigne6104 not all of them comparing them to gender

[@chihiroogino7464]

@Lincoln D lollll well I learned something new today. This whole time I thought what OP said xD

[@theBabyDead]

actually paralympics aren't very even because of the varying degrees and such. There's also quite some cheating. But we know it's the paralympics so we don't take it as harshly. We also wouldn't with trans-lympics.

[@masichasi]

but it's not always an even playing field. People can be in different stages of their transition.

[@cassandraburns3792]

The fact that Lia Thomas was ranked in the 400's with the men swimming but then starting winning as soon as he swam against women. That's the winning argument that proves the theory.

[@mitchellscheer677]

100%. Her trying to attribute her success to "happiness" is insane.

[@mespb]

You could’ve said this without misgendering her. I agree with you, but being blatantly disrespectful makes you sound just as bad.

[@MrMoDaddy]

@@mespb How did that classic State Farm commercial go? The one with the Jake guy wearing Khakis?

[@thehankvoight]

"World Aquatics insists it is doing all it can be inclusive and has introduced an “open” category for transgender swimmers. However, plans to debut it at the Berlin World Cup last October were cancelled after no entries were received for any of the 50m and 100m races across all strokes, which were due to take place alongside male and female races." HAHAHAHAHH Its already cancelled, sadly!

[@demarnelson1463]

This is probably one of the most worst episodes jubilee has done, the trans speakers literally didn't have any scientific info and spoke off point every question, you cannot argue from a place of feelings and your opinion in a scientific and factual argument.

[@snakemongoosepanther]

It's not like the cis folks here were extraordinary geniuses who showed up armed with scientific research, right? They were just laying out what seem to be pretty reasonable common sense arguments and the trans athletes couldn't address the points that were made. What might that tell us.

[@demarnelson1463]

@@snakemongoosepanther that the debate is no longer about biological differences and factual evidence where sports, work or science is involved. The whole thing for trans athletes is based on feelings, if it continues like this ,years to come the sporting world will be meaningless the level of unfairness will be astonishing and for men who fail to be the number one athlete in their sport will start to look to becoming a transgender woman as the new steroid enhancement.

[@technoloverish]

@@demarnelson1463 But as a conservative person, do you honestly give a crap about women's sports, or do you just care about them in the context of transgender women in women's sports as you see it as an opportunity to try to dehumanize transgender people? In my experience, most conservative people don't care about women's sports at all and some of them even think women shouldn't be in sports to begin with. I kinda get the feeling that you probably wouldn't shed a tear of women's sports was just disbanded altogether. Also, you seem to be under the false impression that there's an epidemic of transgender people who are just faking it in order to win in sports, which couldn't be further from the truth. Almost every transgender person knew they were transgender at an early age, and transgender people are greatly disadvantaged in many ways, so much so that they even often end up having to quit school due to bullying and stuff.

[@demarnelson1463]

@@technoloverish I am a jamaican, I don't live in the USA I live in Jamaica, where the fastest women are from and we are very proud and concerned of women's sports and women in sports, there is not a influx of transgender women taking over sports currently but given time and unregulated laws and practices, that will happen. I don't wish to dehumanize transgender women or men as I still support the idea and reality that people should feel free to be who they really want to be but what is the message we are sending to the world and young women ,that in time no matter how hard you train you will never be in the top of your sport because you were not biologically born a male first then became a woman? Transgender women and men should have a fair shot in sports but we cannot continue to act as though there are not permanent benefits to being born biologically male first, testosterone is only one factor. There needs to be a conversation with honest scientific facts and no transphobic opinions and no feelings,just a conversation on how best to go forward with transgender people in sports .

[@technoloverish]

@@demarnelson1463 Okay, fair enough. I guess the bottom line is that this is an issue where there is no easy solution that will satisfy everyone.

[@fernandofernandez8723]

Slightly infuriated me when people kept looking at this based on their feelings/emotions instead of facts.

[@209jayy3]

Yup

[@pnut3844able]

Unfortunately that's the world we live in today. Intelligence is becoming less and less common.

[@lona9461]

Facts are important but feelings are valid in getting that message across cause you need to be aware of who you are dealing.

[@middlek4093]

@@lona9461 when they were talking about the endangerment of scholarship, the person didn't even discuss about that issue he just said "I didn't get scholarship" and was all about his feeling, but in the outside perspective he is deem as selfish and lack of empathy. To be honest this jubilee video is pretty bad representing the trans community since they keep avoiding the question or argument that is presented

[@paigemiller7478]

tututuuttuutututt

[@emmie3069]

this truly isn’t about feelings or beliefs. it’s facts. trans women truly do have an advantage against other cis women. however, trans men most likely have a disadvantage against cis men.

[@dracarysgirl2048]

@Are You Going To Do The 'Ora Ora' Thing? you even bothered watching that video?

[@jherc12990]

@Are You Going To Do The 'Ora Ora' Thing? that’s literally what I was thinking. I play soccer and watched both men and women. The differences are clearly obvious and men are generally quicker, stronger, and the play is a lot quicker now. My high school team once played agains the women’s team and we won 4-0 without even breaking a sweat. The game would not be the same if it was coed.

[@yokingstream1005]

Exactly

[@alizehustle9385]

I hate the term "cis" but i get your point. Its true

[@dunyacaliskan7495]

But how we address that is up to subjective belief.

[@Anonymous-sb9rr]

There are athletes that are mediocre before they transition and champions after they transition. That says it all.

[@cthulhu9033]

I am 100% sure that a Top 50 Male MMA Fighter would rip apart the female MMA Top 10 in the same weight class without shedding a tear. I feel like people are valueing some peoples Emotions over reality nowadays...

[@richieferrelli6318]

try top 250

[@soilent9618]

I could also guarantee that those top 50 male fighters could transition to female (with hormones) and still beat them as well.

[@huntershaffer8771]

@@richieferrelli6318 Try top 15 of anyone in any UFC division. Go put Nunes or Shevchenko against Petr Yan LOL

[@pixelblaze8284]

Have you not seen female MMA fighters? I'm a martial artist and I've gotten my ass handed to me by many women in my weight and skill level. Martial arts, especially at that level, is primarily a mental game unless you're literally just taking turns bashing each other over the head.

[@remotivaction]

Lucia Rijker vs Somchai Jaidee, the most accomplished female fighter in history, an undefeated female fighter in boxing and kickboxing Lucia Rijker, she got knocked out and beaten easily by unknown average muay-thai fighter somchai.

[@cymonerogers2574]

Are we just going to ignore the obvious here? Having contact sports be gender neutral would literally be dangerous. I played soccer for years and I'll be damned if I had to play against biological men LMAO. It gets physical enough playing against women. I couldn't imagine being pushed around by men on the field lololol

[@ellegilmore264]

exactly so true i play tennis and when we have mixed matches, my male opponents don't get tired as soon as me they can literally play upto 4 hrs+ whole max i can do is 2-2.5hrs. im genuinely thankful that we don't have gender neutral sports

[@daliam8715]

Imagine rugby

[@danielmccarten4357]

@@ded_inside2159 In comparison to cis men, yes they physically are. By a huge margin

[@HM-tm7pk]

@@ded_inside2159 weak isn’t the right word, everyone strength is usually proportionate to their size and testerone levels and bone density so disadvantaged would be the better word

[@danielmccarten4357]

@@ded_inside2159 Anecdotal and irrelevant

[@nuufoualo5934]

No offense to anybody but I’m kinda tired of this topic lol it’s so glaringly obvious that men and women’s sports need to be separate, no matter which gender you transitioned into

[@marytc2714]

I’m gay and I agree as well

[@LucaDolanRuiz]

The "biology" of any two trans-men/women can be wildly different depending on a number of factors: their genetics, if and when they went on puberty blockers, if and how long they've been taking hormones, etc. A lot of people don't seem to understand this.

[@STI.Ricardito]

@@marytc2714 wtf lol that was hilarious 😂

[@marytc2714]

@@STI.Ricardito why 😂?

[@nuufoualo5934]

@Founding Fathers that makes sense but women has been very synonymous to female for a long time. It’s just looney weird activists trying to change that definition. I want Trans athletes to thrive and compete but not at the expense of women with not even half of their strength n speed

[@Turquoise4eva]

I'm so tired of ppl thinking since the hormones are lower then it's ok to compete against females. The human body is not just hormones.

[@klipk7296]

I'm happy that trans-athletes are being given a voice, but this debate contributes nothing of substance because it's a bunch of non-scientists having a 'debate' about biochemistry... am I wrong? Like what's the point of this video exactly?

[@nearlyace]

cause it'll get clicks (and money), and it's a big talking point right now. They know that people are going to watch this, because so many people are enraged simply by the existence of trans people. I say this as someone who is trans lol. That's literally why the video has been made - it served a purpose for the company.

[@gerrywilliams1392]

This wasn't a video about biochemists. It was about the ideas coming from the people who are affected be it trans athletes or cis. This is an important conversation to be had because there needs to be realizations of the nuances in social and political ideology. We all have our own ideas of how the world works based on pur experiences and knowledge. This here allows for us to try to come to solutions or paths foward about how we can address this topic. Instead of being in a vaccuum of thought that most social media platforms support, this makes you hear different sides and angles of this topic.

[@hopeintruth5119]

@@gerrywilliams1392 I rather here factual data so we can come up the a factual conclusion. What us the reality of it, what are the facts. What is possible, What would be fair. A biochemist is far more indepth with this. So yeah I get some random talking and representing but someone who is formerly educated on some matter to fact check.

[@manganess5126]

@@gerrywilliams1392 But in other videos they do have scientists (eg. the flat earth one), so you can definitely hear both sides while still having people who are knowledgeable about the topic

[@kennya6971]

But why wouldn't they talk about it? At the end of the day their the ones affected not the scientists

[@playamusa]

I can't believe this is even a debate still. Most of the arguments for having Trans people in sports made no sense or were completely off topic 🤦🏾‍♂️. If there's no difference why aren't there popular unisex sports?

[@gp5390]

You can't? I certainly can. Our societal understanding of sex and gender is changing at lightning speed, so we need to figure this stuff out in a way that is fair for EVERYONE. And, newsflash, excluding trans people and putting them at disadvantages is not fair, just like making cis women compete with trans women.

[@WolfHaley666]

@@gp5390 there's the olympics and there's the paralympics.. there could easily be a translympics or some other name

[@khalidscott1410]

@@gp5390 people just neglect natural science and feel the need to be entitled to change because their “different”. Sheesh 🙄

[@syahidsalleh3209]

@@gp5390 some says that the understanding is a delusion.

[@gp5390]

@@khalidscott1410 I just think people aren’t making an attempt to make a viable solution. And that people are oversimplifying this criminally. And that saying “this conversation shouldn’t be happening” is intellectual censorship.

[@Nova-zk5gn]

I dont understand why the conversation is all about hormones as if hormones are the only differences between men and women. This is blowing my mind how they are blatantly ignoring basic information to build their fragile arguments

[@je-freenorman7787]

Its all about religion and beliefs There is no such thing as a 3rd Gender its religion and religion is never ok

[@Nova-zk5gn]

@@je-freenorman7787 I'm not sure exactly you're referencing in terms of a response to what I said

[@sambennett996]

@@Nova-zk5gn he is saying that the general mentality and notion towards this topic is guided by “religion” being faith and not facts or statistics

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@sambennett996 Faith in a zero is nothing. Faith in religion and government is foresaken they are forms of slavery

[@alp2610]

Hormones are the only thing they can change so of course that’s their main argument.

[@aceyourhole9538]

It’s pretty simple Why don’t you see the same level of success with females that transition to male? Hats of to the level of respect each person showed one another

[@brotherlvke]

kinda sad, seemed like the trans people could really speak with confidence because they could never be "wrong". everyone else had to dance around their answer to make sure they don't get cancelled.

[@dooby5833]

How is it sad💀

[@brotherlvke]

@@dooby5833 how is that not sad, people can't say certain things for fear of being "cancelled" or things of that nature, if that isn't sad to you I think you're missing something lol

[@dooby5833]

@@brotherlvke Idk it just seems to be kind of dramatic to make a big fuss about cis people being afraid of getting “cancelled” for their beliefs whilst trans people are afraid of getting murdered for their identity

[@brotherlvke]

@@dooby5833 don't think I made anything dramatic, I just pointed out a difference in the answers and if you couldn't see that difference than that's on you

[@VictorMatthieu]

@@dooby5833 If they aren’t transphobic, then they’re not going to get “cancelled”. If they’re afraid their beliefs will lead to that, then they think their own beliefs are transphobic. Best not to share them if even they think they’re problematic.

[@agathachris9722]

This is what happens when logic, fact, common sense, statistical data, proof and science flies out the window in favor of "feelings". Feelings are the only thing that matter, if their feelings are validated, that's the only thing they care about. Then they want the world to bend and agree with their feelings. So narcissistic.

[@pnut3844able]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Anecdotal vs empirical.

[@Donja.z]

I find this whole group who wants to push logic aside narcissistic. Only me me me... narcissism is one of the biggest problems in the world and selfish enablers. How those enablers and narcissists are gaslighting kids! into this nonsense... that's what really breaks my heart

[@prestonanonuoso5508]

The US women’s National Soccer team got clapped by a bunch of 16 year old boys. What more evidence do you need?

[@ic9459]

Entitlement…

[@Pokeringo]

you mean "their feelings", because they clearly don't give a fck about the feelings of the sport women.

[@kalebc2134]

They kept saying “what about height differences” or “some women are naturally stronger than others” as an excuse to say that trans should be able to compete with women. The problem with that is if you’re using the “some people are just naturally stronger than others, and they should still be able to compete with each other” argument, than by that logic there is no reason for men’s and women’s sports at all. They should all compete against one another. And here lies the problem: women would never be successful at sports again. There’s more than just one or two things different with men and women physically. Men have more natural muscle, more fast twitch muscle fibers, higher bone density, hips more developed for movement, men’s brains are even wired to be more physically coordinated. Idk why we act like the only issue is “hormones” like it’s a thing where you can fix that and they are just the same as women. There are real biological differences between the sexes and women deserve the right to be successful in sport without men taking that away from them

[@alinadubin141]

!!!!!!!!!THE LAST SENTENCE. WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE SUCESSFUL IN SPORTS WITHOUT MEN TAKING IT AWAY FROM THEM. It was so annoying to me watching white men continually speak over two asian women. They were acting like women didnt have to fight for the right to even be included in sports

[@JadetheGoober]

That last sentence is why the algo pushed this comment to bikini bottom

[@ayajade5866]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@fanatanutuivaiti8337]

@@alinadubin141 but they’re not men ?

[@BLiNGyourALARMclock]

A woman can be 5’11 without having a “growth disease” wtf lol that’s a perfectly normal healthy height. I came here to say I agree that women having different body types doesn’t compare to men competing with women. As a 5’9 woman I’m not automatically stronger than a 5’5 woman. But to say a woman who’s 5’11 has a growth disease??? Gurl lol no

[@opaliittiopa]

Biological males literally have SO many physical advantages compared to biological women, it can NOT be overstated. Hormones is literally just a small part of it.

[@OHCAM5]

How is a show called Middle Ground have no middle ground. one side came with rational arguments and the other came with feelings and anecdotes.

[@jupiterisaak1004]

That’s the whole trans debate summed up

[@sorryforprojectingmyparent6402]

Stop having hero syndrome, pls, and get smart.

[@OHCAM5]

@@sorryforprojectingmyparent6402 You didn't watch the video did you?

[@sorryforprojectingmyparent6402]

@@OHCAM5 This is the survival. Not a game.

[@OHCAM5]

@@sorryforprojectingmyparent6402 Again what does it have to do with what I said.

[@timb7328]

Trans people needed to be treated fairly and with respect but so should born females. I support Trans rights but only up to the point when it starts taking away others right. The right to compete fairly and safely for born females needs to be considered.

[@unspecifiedunit9126]

So you endorse delusion, interesting

[@timb7328]

@@unspecifiedunit9126 you call it delusional....I think of it as a possible chemical changes in some people, sometimes it may be environmental or influenced by others. No matter what causes their problems I don't think they should be treated poorly. I don't want them hurt but I also don't think we should allow them to take things away from or hurt born females.

[@60something4]

@@timb7328 As a woman, I resent being referred to a “cis” or woman born. And there lies the delusion, men who transition, take female hormones, even have surgeries, are simply men who take hormones or had surgeries to appear female or as a woman, but they are not. By degrading women and females by calling them “cis” is already infringing on our rights and to be honest our identity, which I must add is not the one in question. It is extremely frustrating.

[@Hondeer]

I respect this! Thank you for your support!

[@juicyjuice2536]

What rights are being taken?

[@aclaypot3349]

"There's no proof of any trans athlete that is number one in any category right now"... That did not age well..

[@terrificpage347]

Do you know what right now means

[@donewiththeworld]

@@terrificpage347 You're clearly not smart

[@mads8875]

One trans person wins something and y’all lose your mind lmao

[@DeyBeuller]

@@mads8875 Bruh? What are you on about?

[@mads8875]

@@DeyBeuller wym? everyone freaked out when lia won. they acted like that’s the case for every trans athlete. which it isn’t. because trans ppl have been participating in sports for years and many of them are not top athletes. suddenly the spotlight is on trans ppl and everyone acts like they’re the expert. things change all the time and this video pissed me off more than just comments like this. why are trans ppl facing violence and persecution at such a high rates and media is obsessed with bathrooms and sports? did this answer your question?

[@sn8525]

I feel like I live in an alternative reality. A huge, great bloke with green hair saying that women are not at a disadvantage competing against someone like him. Its downright crazy. Absolute delusional insanity

[@MiaSummer-cm6cy]

I mean he’s only about 6 inches taller than me .definitely heavier than me , 130% more power than me , stronger bigger bones . But no the jolly green giant don’t think he’s got an advantage. I might do a 100 metre race later . Race against under 7’s . Don’t think I’ll have an advantage do you ? 🤦‍♀️

[@mt7able]

"We do have weight categories." "... well for certain sports." Yes, exactly.

[@fanatanutuivaiti8337]

ok make height categories for basketball then

[@bigbird7927]

@@fanatanutuivaiti8337 I agree with you😊

[@aspergerart4635]

@Disappointment is it discrimination tho?

[@paulb3966]

@@fanatanutuivaiti8337 there are it’s called positions. Generally shorter players will be guards while taller players will be forwards and centers

[@josiahruffin2950]

You clearly don't know how basketball works the different heights in basketball are different positions it would make no sense to have a team of all 56 people that means you have a professionally with just playing cards basketball game built off elf different heights there is no game that is built off of different genders Watch sports before you talk about them

[@grtwhtbfflo]

they arn't ignoring the hours you put in to training, they are recognizing how your body responds to those hours vs a biological female who didn't have the same exposure to hormones that you did.

[@b.1162]

This is not a matter of opinion. There is no middle ground. There is no room for debate. The answer is yes, specifically when it comes to biological men in women's competition. Period.

[@carly6192]

This is my issue with middle ground. They take topics where in some cases there is a right and a wrong and then tries to get people to agree when they wont.

[@sanasdate3421]

@@carly6192 This is like the flat earth vs scientist stuff. What is there to find a middle ground for this? There IS unfair advantages, that's a fact, straight up.

[@imacock-gobbler7573]

@@carly6192 Many things do have valid "common" or middle ground. This is not one of those things. It's like child molestation. there's no "2 sides" of child molestation. It's just flat out immoral.

[@kiwirooks7299]

@@imacock-gobbler7573 ask the MAP/3rd wave feminist community about chomos and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to defend the monsters.

[@psychoPilgrim36]

Ok but there is room for debate, thats why this has been getting debated for years. If it was as cut and dry as you say then we wouldnt be having the conversation right now

[@wellwouldntyouliketoknow4137]

Blaire brought me here. Came to read the comments and I was not disappointed.

[@ChalkPanther]

same 🤣

[@DEEANNA88]

I am a trans woman. I actually agree that trans people (especially male to female) do have a physical advantage over cis women

[@nandybrod41]

random comment wow u are beautiful Deanna 😳

[@Zoomin69]

@@ded_inside2159 not when it comes to top athletes. It would not be fair.

[@bigbird4481]

What is a "cis" woman

[@camshabam4483]

@@bigbird4481 a woman who was born a woman, and identifies as a woman.

[@GgByAngel]

@@camshabam4483 Isnt that just a woman ?

[@5dollarshake263]

Isn't it weird how we haven't seen a single biological female transition to male and have any resemblance of success in sports against biologicals males?

[@matthewwearing4926]

There are many that find success in sport 🤷

[@david91lvb]

@@matthewwearing4926 No there aren't

[@mrsxber1916]

@@matthewwearing4926 No there aren't

[@unknownplayer10k]

@@matthewwearing4926 name one

[@gothicgolem2947]

I meen the men who transitioned to women have still been defeated

[@ryannewton5022]

“I’ve trained very hard” every athlete trains hard for their sport. That doesn’t negate your biological advantage. And changing your hormones doesn’t get rid of the physical advantages that your body has already acquired during puberty

[@blazefa.]

Different men are born with biological advantages over other men, some have really bad athletic genetics, some have great ones, where is the issue then to allow trans people to compete?

[@serbansaredwood]

Then explain why there is no proof trans athletes retain an athletic edge over cis athletes?

[@ThomasBomb45]

There are literally studies that show just that: trans women perform equally to cis women after 1 year of HRT. All advantages erased. Sports aren't a competition of freaking bone density. Measuring bone density doesn't sound fun to me

[@lauragoreni3020]

@@ThomasBomb45 you clearly aren't in a biology major.

[@TheGottaluvanime]

@@blazefa. yes some might have better genes to perform better. But you have to put in the effort and practice.

[@killy2270]

As someone that isnt from the united states this just baffles me. Why is there even an discussion about this? Transgender women have a huge advantage. They used to be males. Now they are a slightly weaker form of male. But they still have a stronger frame, residual muscle mass, thicker bones, stronger bones, a more efficient respretory system and many more advantages. Its not just about the hormones being gone.

[@christopherchalande2255]

As an Endocrinologist (a doctor that deals with hormones) I can unequivocally say that trans women do have a distinct advantage. Admittedly it is less if they transition before puberty but still a very serious one. Many because even if their testosterone levels are "the same" as a cis gendered women their free testosterone will always be much higher. This in a sense allows them to utilize more of the performance benefits of testosterone while having less of it.

[@bazkiller]

No one should transition before puberty

[@khybersen4822]

Do you have any sources on why trans women would have higher free testosterone levels than cis women even if their total testosterone levels are the same? Trans women usually have significantly higher levels of sex hormone binding globule because they often have supraphysiological levels of estradiol from hrt, and that would lead to lower free testosterone percentages than non pregnant cis women. Also, trans women who have had orchiectomies or vaginoplasties would have significantly lower levels of total testosterone than cis women, because cis women still produce testosterone in their ovaries and post-op trans women only from their adrenal glands. Would this not be a significant disadvantage? Furthermore, cis women’s androgen receptors are usually more sensitive than trans women’s.

[@bjtheamazing6550]

I have two questions. By free testosterone do you mean how responsive they are to the hormone (androgen receptivity)? Or is it something else.

[@March2792]

Тоже самое у трансгенных мужчин?

[@March2792]

Относительно цисгендерных мужчин?

[@TGShunai]

When someone compared the natural production of hormones in the human body to drinking a protein shake, you know you can't take them serious.

[@banko1808]

Just say you don't take Trans people seriously

[@ashleybutler5796]

The trans athletes could play in gender neutral clubs since they’re okay with that but not everyone should have to conform to that if they don’t want to

[@ashleybutler5796]

@Crows and Magpies haha if athletes got banned for spreading lies …. A lot of athletes would be banned

[@americantopteam135s-t7]

Agreed. Just because a born male athlete is happy to compete against cis females, that doesn't mean the other females are happy to compete against them. Its just unfortunate that whoever screams 'oppression' into the void the loudest gets their way.

[@basiczachh3978]

yeah, because there’s enough people who are trans or gender neutral to make up a whole team

[@mikel2976]

a study amongst 312 kids age (10.8 +- 0years) found a greater strength, aerobic fitness, speed and agilty in boys against girls. Girls won in balance and flexibility. the first testosteron rush in a boy is inside the womb, the advantage is there since day 1.

[@NiramBG]

Guy: If sports were gender neutral women will not get any scholarships. Trans guy: Well trans people don't get any scholarships now. Bruh, you're literally saying: if trans people don't get scholarships, women shouldn't either. The people on the trans side were clowns, you need to cast better! More people with arguments backed by research.

[@JLuke2oo7]

That's just it. Not only these guys, but nobody could find any research to disprove that trans men to women & men do have & will always have a physical advantage over people born female. It's literal biology & anybody who argues against that is delusional.

[@bafoonerysamurai6911]

Yea that’s kinda the problem. There isn’t any

[@hjdllirlmbslfrk]

As a trans guy, I absolutely agree with you

[@Puckett.]

You're gonna have a hard time finding someone who can make a coherent argument in favor of transgenders in sports. Cause it's just a completely illogical stance to take.

[@pranavsinghal7554]

There's nobody better

[@smexyNiallHoran]

I definetly noticed hesitancy with the Cis people when speaking. This topic is hard to talk about because you don't want to come off as transphobic but at the same time the idea of letting trans women compete with ciswomen does seem unfair to the cis women as biological males are born with biological advantages that can't be undone with hormone therapy. I.e bone density, lung size etc as they mentioned

[@jamie1304]

That's strange because I remember reading scientific studies that show that after a few years on hormones, transgender women have no greater advantage than any cis woman would have 🤔

[@lovrezovic3530]

@@jamie1304 u are reading woke propagandic articles

[@jamie1304]

@@lovrezovic3530 the study was done by the British Journal of Sports Medicine, which only has peer-reviewed articles and appears to be fairly credible so I fail to see how it's "wOkE pRoPaGaNdA"...

[@Alex-en5ig]

@@jamie1304 There are also plenty of peer reviewed studies, pointing to the exact opposite. Trans women may lose a lot of strength but they don't lose height, bone density etc, as highlighted in the above comment. Anyone can dig out a 'peer reviewed' paper that reiterates their own position on something.

[@jamie1304]

@@Alex-en5ig That's possibly true - I haven't looked into bone density / muscle mass or anything, but trans women can get shorter when on hrt because of shrinking cartilage and shifting of their pelvic angle , so that's not entirely correct...

[@ReginaBerg90]

Afton just casually saying there are co-ed roller derby leagues and that Afton joined roller derby after 4 months of transitioning is crazy. Afton just out here in female leagues loving beating women up, so ladylike.

[@donnamarie33]

fr like just join the co-ed if you’re so worried about outing or whatever

[@ChristManson]

“I didn’t get a scholarship” then proceeds to talk about getting their scholarship. “It’ll be coed versus coed not coed versus all male.” False. If I can only have 15 people on a team and my bench and 15 men are the best at free throws, shooting threes and scoring guess what...?! It’s all male.

[@queenseabee8113]

The well "I didn't get a scholarship..." argument sounded petty. It says, "well I didn't get one why should you...?" Maybe you just suck....ever think of that?

[@romanzolanski3223]

And he probably didn't get the scholarship because he was competing against cisgender men. I don't think anyone would deny you a scholarship if you were the best but unfortunately he wasn't because he was obviously at a disadvantage

[@h0pskip]

i’ve participated in coed sports before and they generally have rules to combat that. like in volleyball two guys couldnt be next to eachother on the court. so the sport would have rules to not let the team be playing all one gender which means that wouldnt happen.

[@ChristManson]

@@h0pskip then it sounds like that sport is no longer competitive.

[@Johenz]

@@h0pskip yeah then it’s not the perfect sport. So it’d be like if you have a basketball team you need 7 male and 7 female on the team and have to have atleast two of the same gender in at all times. But what if your best players are of one gender? That ruins the competition aspect of things

[@6333.]

im trans. i hold more conservative views on gender and have always considered biological sex to be relevant in sports and medical care. its not transphobic to say that. if anythings it’s transphobic to DENY the real advantages that transwomen do have. transmen also have a disadvantage. get over it

[@crazypyp5871]

Isn't it also transphobic to DENY trans people from an entire group of sports? People are also forgetting the fact that now any women, trans or not, who excels at a sport is labeled trans and needs a background check on them. People have also been checking the genitals of others in school to make sure they are cisgender. How about you get over yourself. Just cuz you don't like trans people competing in sports doesn't mean they shouldn't.

[@iasql]

@@crazypyp5871 the whole reason for creating different categories for men and women sports was to include females in top level sports, because they don't have any chance in competing with males. The whole point was to separate on sex so that we can have FAIR competitions. Thats the whole point of the separation. This was done at a time when the word men meant cis-men and women meant cis-women. Since then our society and language has evolved, and now we have trans athletes that don't fall in any of the categories and are not included in sports. We should create new category for them so that they can also be included in sports, without destroying the women divisions and excluding females from top level sports.

[@JJ-cg9rj]

@@crazypyp5871 it's not transphobic, biology still holds true for trans women and that's simply a fact

[@gamingcringe8325]

k@ your the type of transperson i respect 🙂not this braindead lefties

[@Toastroony]

Def yeah

[@imanigordon6803]

They aren’t gonna push the boundaries in this discussion or they gonna get cancelled 😂

[@topheeba]

lmaooo true

[@alizehustle9385]

Factz

[@nasirw6407]

Ha ha ha😐

[@Intr0vertical]

U spittin

[@andreiiancu7154]

😐

[@SweeneyTodd1990]

They got some raging narcissists on that trans side. That green haired one just wants to hit women.

[@titanblade3706]

I hate how criticism is now hate speech. I’m not saying there aren’t transphobes because there will be transphobic people however many who bring valid criticism and they’re no where near transphobic but genuine concern. That shouldn’t be crossed off because someone is offended.

[@hogatiwash7750]

it's rlly just a cop out response. u can be respectful and give criticism at the same time but some ppl are too self righteous or in their own bubble to be willing to open up for discussion.

[@poocrayon4588]

Yeah feminists started it but now they’re crying because it’s biting them on the butt. Whatever.

[@MyPlaylistGaveMeADS]

Just wait,one day calling Flat earthers idiots will be considered as hate speech

[@MsKaystra]

It's because generally speaking, that I've noticed (I have no evidence to back this up purely anecdoctal) the people who are against trans men/women athletes being in the same category as cis men/women, tend to already be religious/homophobes/conservatives to begin with and are disagreeing because they already don't agree with LGBT rights in the first place and not because they've actually tried examining both sides and coming to a conclusion with reason seperate from their already grounded beliefs/morals. If LGBT was actually more normalized to begin with and accepting for both secular/non secular people (including their morals that they were taught whether they are a religious person or not) then people wouldn't skip straight to transphobe when discussing with a person who disagrees about trans athletes having no advantage. Of course this isn't always the case but religious people take up a huge portion. Lastly, *I'm not trying to make excuses and I'm not saying it is right for people to think like this.* I'm just saying this is a pretty *fair reason* why some people jump to transphobe. Given that trans athletes is such a recently new topic in today's world (let alone LGBT) and based on the past and continually repeated present experiences today from right wing/religious groups who take up a huge majority of media, politics etc you can see why some people jump straight to transphobe.

[@somenerdpng]

99% of this argument is just transphobes lmfao

[@keyboarddancers7751]

The male and female skeletons typically differ in several important areas: pelvic width, pelvis-knee Q angle, elbow carrying angle, bone length and bone density. These differences affect the amount of torque which can be effectively applied through the skeleton by the muscles. This fundamental biomechanical structural development CANNOT be altered regardless of any transgender related hormonal treatments and so the comparative performance differences for men and women engaged in the majority of physical sporting activities should be obvious.

[@jessehorton10]

Unless they transitioned with genital corrective surgery pre-puberty, which is ethically gray at best.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

@@jessehorton10 If you happen to find a doctor carrying out such surgery on pre-pubertal children anywhere on the planet, call the police immediately!

[@jeffreyyoungblood7438]

"should be" except when you're in complete denial... Of course it's obvious, but if you say so, you're "transphobic".

[@ryq4144]

@@keyboarddancers7751 they do it to intersex babies all of the time

[@ryq4144]

Yeah but at the same time, where is the line drawn? Some cis women naturally are bigger than others so do they have an “unfair advantage” over something they can’t control?

[@groot7469]

Even with hormone therapy, trans women will still have a huge advantage against most cis female athletes. If you are born biologically male you automatically have narrower hips, higher bone density, bigger heart and bigger lungs. This is even if you don't go through male puberty and are put on hormone blockers. If you DO go through male puberty and then transition you have an even bigger advantage. And for everyone that says just have a 'A' and 'B' team (regardless of gender) for HS and College sports...meaning the best players would play on team 'A' and the second best play on team 'B'...you would have two teams full of mostly men. Maybe 1-2 cis females would make team 'B' and that's at best. This would pretty much erase female sports all together.

[@Noone-dk5ih]

Sports have always been about biological advantages

[@notradamaza4035]

@@Noone-dk5ih on average males have way better biological advantages over females. Sports is about biological advantages that are based on luck, most biologically born males have a way bigger advantage than females, it’s a fact.

[@ryanhickman3335]

Wtf is a cis, the only cis ik is the confederacy of independent systems

[@dracarysgirl2048]

Yeah, it would erase female sports and considering how much people are liberal about it, I am scared. Actually they have already started accepting the pronounces like "people who menstruate" or "birthing people" like really?

[@nashi._.7563]

@@Noone-dk5ih Depends on the sport tho. Some sports have weight and height requirements for that specific division. Wrestling, bodybuilding, boxing etc But I see what you mean

[@SAVOTYB]

Did he just say there’s not a single trans athlete that is number one like Leah Thompson the swimmer doesn’t exist? The same athletes that was in the bottom 200s in their league, but soon as they became a “woman” instantly found himself winning races, going undefeated, and winning the NCAA championship in the end completely smoking the second place winner.

[@SwiftieM]

I would think ignoring gender or having gender neutral schools would be like when people try to say they ignore skin color. You don’t have to ignore something to be nice. You can notice there is a difference and also be respectful and celebrate the differences and similarities. Saying we are are human and I don’t “see” gender or I don’t “see” race doesn’t give a chance to celebrate the positives. You can’t celebrate black culture and their achievements if you say you don’t even notice they are black the same way you can’t celebrate women’s achievements and their power if you don’t acknowledge they are female. I fully support trans people but we can notice their differences and celebrate it we don’t have to act like there are no differences when there is.

[@SxdHxrmony]

I believe the difference here is that many trans people (that I know personally, not sure about others) would prefer to just be addressed as male or female. If they feel like it (or if you get to know them) then they would tell you they're trans. They don't necessarily want to be celebrated or identified right away as a trans person. Most of them simply believe they're born as the wrong gender. Knowing how my friends feel, its hard to have an opinion on how we recognize and celebrate trans success. Also I am not sure what gender neutral schools are so I'm going to look into that, I'm assuming it's (in part) where anyone can try out for any sports teams?

[@robgrant9348]

I’m curious why you didn’t add this sentence in your post… “The same way you can’t celebrate white’s achievements if you don’t acknowledge they’re white.”

[@desireandfire]

I actually love this take. Exactly why so called "colorblind" people who say they don't see color are so much in the wrong. Color exists. And ignoring the differences between communities ignores the history of each one which is harmful

[@andrewkolandjian9449]

Well race is something that is not nearly as relevant genetically speaking. Many people have multiple races, and specific culture is usually tied to region. Sex is something that's integral to society and how we function, without both, there would be no society. Therefore I would argue its more reasonable to recognize differences between male and female.

[@SxdHxrmony]

@@robgrant9348 and Asian, and middle eastern Asian, and hispanic, and pacific islander and