The Science of Trans Athletes (with Schuyler Bailar

This week Schuyler Bailar (@pinkmantaray) joins us as we dive in to share his insights as we dive into the science surrounding transgender athletes & the facts of trans inclusion in sport.
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References & Further Reading:
Overview of Transgender Athletes
Sabine’s Video ( • Trans athletes in wome... )
Jangles Video ( • The Science of Trans W... )
docs.google.com/document/d/10...
www.hrc.org/resources/get-the...
www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-right...
Women in Sport
www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/sp...
www.outsports.com/trans/2022/...
www.outsports.com/trans/2022/...
Laws & Regulations
www.science.org/content/artic...
www.reuters.com/lifestyle/spo...
www.reuters.com/lifestyle/spo...
www.theguardian.com/sport/202...
health.gov/sites/default/file...
Testosterone & Puberty
www.healthline.com/health/hig...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...
www.health.harvard.edu/medica...
Hormone Studies on Athletes
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24593...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25137...
Effects of Medical Gender Transition
www.science.org/content/artic...
cosmosmagazine.com/people/tra...
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-o...
ec.bioscientifica.com/view/jo...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794...
bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
academic.oup.com/jes/article/...
Sex-Based Advantages
www.scientificamerican.com/ar...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12773...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-4928...
Mixed Gender Competition
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti..."

[@SciGuys]

Do you play any sports?

[@rainbow.artkid77]

yes I do dance

[@vanessamonster5038]

Nope

[@Robb3636]

Used to swim, and cycle in the velodrome, don't anymore, ironically because I'm trans and puberty had me feeling all kinds of ways that weren't conducive to liking doing sports anymore!

[@Alice-ms8vo]

I skateboard :]

[@threeofeight197]

Tennis!!! 🎾🎾🎾

[@Robb3636]

I really liked the guest you guys had on today! He wasn't afraid to speak up very often to slightly correct, or add to points being made, and had really vital input. I also really appreciate that he was a trans man, because as you said, no one ever talks about us in sport, it's always trans women, so his addition was very valuable.

[@clarissanavarro2762]

I always bring up Alex Tlinca in my conversations with conservatives. Say " Trans man athlete" anf they tune out, because it does not support their narrative.

[@kylelaforest9919]

@@clarissanavarro2762because “trans men” don’t have an advantage, so they’re not as concerned.

[@clarissanavarro2762]

@@kylelaforest9919 But a Trans Man beat cis men at a Body Building contest,... wouldn't the cis men have had an advantage over the Trans man if what they say is true?? That someone born male has an innate unquestioned advantage over someone born female?? If so then why did someone that was born female,...Alex Tlinca defeat a Bunch of people born male,... at Bodybuilding?? How do you not understand that Alex Tlinca proves that being born male provides no innate unquestioned advantage?

[@moocha4030]

Why when the women who were doping times still behind the men's? Marita Koch was confirmed to be in East Germany doping program and yet highschool boys easily beat her world record. Why does this happen?

[@maycarmel8416]

As a russian who doesn't live in russia, I am indeed angry at luke and corry. Jokes aside, this is an absolutely wonderful podcast, I've been listening for a couple months now, and as a fellow trans listener, It's really awesome to see you guys talk about lgbtq+ stuff, it's really awesome to see the representation and to learn about my own history from my favorite podcasters.amdeed am

[@KaileyTheAlien]

I'm happy this comment is so high up so I don't have to make another copy of it!

[@erinhawkins1950]

You can't study the effects of HRT on elite athletes if you don't let them play!! There are bound to be huge differences between the effects on an average trans woman and one that is training for elite sports.

[@TheMooRam]

Very true! And don't compare trans athletes to average people. Like yeah, maybe an individual trans woman athlete has a higher muscle density compared to average cis women, but that's bc they're comparing a high-end athlete to a regular person. Like yeah.

[@19Rena96]

@@TheMooRam they are camparing high end athletes with high end athletes. Just compare the men and female achievements in all kinds of sports. In 90% of all the cases men will dominate.

[@TheMooRam]

@@19Rena96 that's the whole point though, 'camparing' top-tier athlete cis men to cis women does not give any info on how top-tier athlete trans men and trans women will perform. Edit: "men and female"

[@19Rena96]

@@TheMooRam You just have to compare the times?

[@TheMooRam]

@@19Rena96 times of what? Comparing cis people to cis people doesn't give any info on how trans people will perform. There's likely not even enough data on pro-level trans athletes to form a reasonable conclusion. Trans women haven't beaten the women's world records. Hell, have any trans people even won Olympic medals?

[@alicesshelter9719]

People in Russia can see youtube videos. The only difference is that the ads are not shown. And the two words for blue were prounced very well for the second time.

[@LillyMannhal]

One of the questions I really like to ask whenever the topic of "fairness" and trans women comes up is. If we assume that trans women have a small but existent advantage. Why is it not fair for the trans women to play with the cis women but it would then be fair for trans women to play with cis men which on average have way more of an advantage. why is fairness only ever considered for cis people?

[@Tyler_Owen23]

They are men. Just because you throw on a dress doesn’t make you a woman. Good lord.

[@NeverStudio8]

​@@Tyler_Owen23 Educate yourself

[@jaws392]

@@NeverStudio8LMAO That’s your response. Totally don’t sound like a Nazi who wants people to accept their falsehoods and shut up. Yeah you guys are the good ones. LOL!

[@Tyler_Owen23]

@@NeverStudio8 lol they are disgusting monsters. No one like them.

[@erinhawkins1950]

My son has been a competitive Irish dancer since he was 3. He started his transition and dancing with the boys at 16 and had to completely relearn how to dance to the particular aspects that are weighted more strongly for boys than girls. But he still has a few people saying that he has it easier now because there are fewer boys and a better chance at winning.

[@tarnw3301]

Is your child taking testosterone? Well, I guess if doping is allowed, have fun...

[@Voiceless_Cheese]

​@@tarnw3301????

[@nigeladams8321]

@@tarnw3301 literally everyone competing in the boys dance has testosterone going through them. We would be concerned if they didn't. I'm sure you don't consider them doping

[@tarnw3301]

@@nigeladams8321 but are they taking exogenous testosterone? Just answer the question, if doping is allowed, then go on. Literally, I have seldom care or sympathy towards trans identified female teenagers over 15 which will become future terminal chronical patients due their choice to take exogenous testosterone, it is only affecting them and when they need diapers after removing their atrophied uterus, at least they will have a shinny trophy. As long as doping is allowed, it's fine and dandy by me.

[@nigeladams8321]

@@tarnw3301 how would it be doping if they are within the expected amount of testosterone for men? Do you have any evidence of them having an unfair amount of testosterone in their body? One that would give them an unfair advantage over the other men? And I think you aren't actually familiar with the process of transition. Did you learn what you think you know from some divorced idiot online, or have you actually talked to trans people and doctors who know what they're talking about?

[@TheTransDevin520]

I'm a trans guy. I was good at playing basketball and baseball in gym. I wasn't the best in class. But I was pretty good. And not because I'm trans. I didn't even start social transition till I was 36. I was good because i was taller and bigger then the girls in my class. I've always been bigger than the other in my class. Until highschool when all the boys caught up to me. You can't very well ban trans people because of "unfair advantages" when cis people (even as children) can have an "unfair advantage".

[@annearly3200]

So if i put a 200 lbs. gorilla vs 200 lbs. man in a box ring is that fair they are they same weight class

[@TheTransDevin520]

@@annearly3200 how is that the same? Trans people aren't gorilla's. Like it or not. Trans people are human beings.

[@annearly3200]

@@TheTransDevin520 transwomen are not women. they want to compare a female boxer to a male boxer in the same wight class

[@annearly3200]

@@TheTransDevin520 a man is not a women just because he say so. Gorillas are 96% are genetic match.

[@KelvinLopez-jv3fr]

Freak...

[@Drawoon]

Today I learned: bones aren't muscles

[@eclypsed7525]

No but I think this topic really interesting. Loving the content especially the science behind being trans and supporting trans!!! 🏳️‍⚧️ Have a good pride everyone!

[@fictionalortrue541]

Hey, could you point me towards a source for the third genders of cultures pre-British influence? It sounds really important, but I want to have a source to back myself up before I start sharing it, if that makes sense.

[@OopsLostAllSenseOfRealityAgain]

Greeeat guest!!

[@OopsLostAllSenseOfRealityAgain]

Plus loove the reflections on 'linguistic sexism' and how language can affect perception. Would definitely not mind (a.k.a. would definitely love) more language-related musings and/or content, in general 🌞

[@OopsLostAllSenseOfRealityAgain]

+ **😬😏😏s in semiotics**

[@tbuheh6749]

As a Russian who does live in Russia but who has a vpn, i was in fact very excited when you mentioned it! As soon as you started talking about colours my mind immediately went there :D It's 'golubOi' with 'o' stressed, and 'siniy' with 's' being a softer s sound, not a zed sound, if that makes sense :)

[@davefisher1840]

This was excellent. I was a competitive swimmer in high school and college. I also coached youth swimming for about 13 years. Starting around 1:23 in the podcast you covered the most important points. However, the total podcast was wonderful. Thanks so much for posting!!

[@vinshoken]

he is SUCH a good speaker omg

[@potterlover96]

One thing I find quite interesting is that, people always go on about a "genetic advantage" and it being unfair - no one mentions the fact that Usain Bolt has around 80% fast-twitch muscle fiber in his legs compared to the average for a cismale being 50% (values might not be completely accurate as there is some disagreement on sources I've found) - fast-twitch is the type of muscle that gives short bursts of power so is really good for sprinters. That is a genetic advantage - does that mean he should be banned from competitive sprinting events?

[@annearly3200]

Florence Griffith Joyner was the fastest woman her record is 10.49 in the 100-meter race if she race against men 50 of them would have crossed the finish line before her.

[@mikeriley3556]

and your argument completely misses the point, basically saying biological females don't have it hard enough against other biological females with slight natural advantages so let's completely obliterate their chances and have the males win everything

[@littlecatfeet9064]

Do you think if Usain Bolt took female hormones for a year that he should race against women?

[@nelsonkaiowa4347]

Thank you.

[@imgeniusish]

i love this episode so much!! i just wish all the people around me could speak english so i could just send stuff like this to them because i couldnt explain it so well and i really think that all they need is just sources other than what we get in my country which are mostly of course bigotted as heck. anyways, thank you for the video!! ❤

[@daisybergase5164]

i love this episode. im rly glad you made this.

[@Goomzz]

I never played on any sports teams as a kid because they were mostly all gender segregated, and while I didn't understand why it made me uncomfortable to have to play on a girls team at the time, I pretty much refused to join in activities that were not coed. I ended up doing martial arts because they didn't separate by gender there.

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

The point is they weren't meant to be gender segregated. They have traditionally been sex-segregated...for a reason.

[@nigeladams8321]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 tradition doesn't make a very good argument Ben

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

@nigeladams8321 women wanted to have a good chance to win competitions. They would rarely win in most coed competitions. Only a misogynist wants women consistently losing.

[@nigeladams8321]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 it's pretty misogynistic to assume that women would do nothing but lose and coed sports. Women athletes are actually pretty damn competent. And once again you didn't make an actual argument, you just appealed to what you already believe There's a lot of actually really interesting history here. For example you'll find a hard time finding historical women's sports especially in colleges because they just weren't allowed to compete outside of their own little groups. It's really not as simple as 'girl weak'

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

@nigeladams8321 yes, a few rare womenbwill beat the guys. So your vision is to drastically reduce women winning so you can brag about some rare exceptional women.

[@Sarahbethcycles]

As a trans woman athlete who started transitioning at 38 after being pretty ok at mountain bike races since high school, I had testosterone of 560 ng/dl when I started blocking. Even at that number and training over 100 miles a week I was only on par with the cis girls I competed with last year. This year I have gotten down to 5 ng/dl and haven’t beaten a single cis woman. The thing people forget about is in some sports like mountain biking bmi is huge. I am lean and toned but a lot weaker than before but still 50-70 lbs heavier than my similar height competition. That is a tremendous disadvantage for climbing courses. In flat courses i can play tactics and technology to get closer but I have no advantage over them other than 25 years of experience against men’s tactics.

[@helena.beatrice]

I'm favorable to trans people in sports as I am trans myself, but are your competitors as old as you? Because at your age it is expected for athletes to decline in performance, even if not on hormone therapy (although the treatment surely also contributes a lot to this)

[@Sarahbethcycles]

@@helena.beatrice there is a direct correlation often between age and performance in women for sure, but there are plenty of variables such as training. I have found age only correlated to an extent as the age bracket that I am in is usually 20-45 ages and I have been beaten by a few women older than me, though typically they are younger and the top ten is frequently linear by age. This correlation was not the case when I was still a guy, as testosterone levels can be stable in some males. One of my trans women friends had 500t when she started transitioning at 74. Women have a much more varied hormonal profile that varies monthly and declines throughout menopause

[@selenamertvykh6481]

It's almost like if you put a moped engine where there's normally a V8, the car doesn't run as fast! Imagine that. *sigh*

[@ameliamangham4460]

I just wanna say I loved this episode, I’ll be honest I’ve never heard of or seen this guest before but he is just delightful, very eloquent in his manner of speaking and I can tell he is very intelligent and passionate on the topic. He bounced off of the two of you excellently and I love him, definitely will check him out

[@breathebeloved]

Good gracious this is so good.

[@diIbert]

The trans athlete debate is really no debate. For the most part trans athletes have been banned in Olympic sports. And in the USA 🏳️‍⚧️ sports is increasingly a big loser. As women and girls have rebelled against it. Thats important. Because both are still very pro 🏳️‍🌈. But they now draw a clear red line when it comes to 🏳️‍⚧️ in female spaces. So much so even the most liberal Democrat would NEVER speak of 🏳️‍⚧️ to gain women votes. But instead talk of pro-choice to court their vote.

[@Durry-hj9ot]

I can’t wait to show this to my mum

[@planetaryg0]

1:33:24 THIS. cory u said this so well. OF COURSE we all have internalised harmful beliefs!! what makes u a good person or not is whether u can recognise these, analyse them objectively, and try to undo them!! this is an ESSENTIAL part of maturity and growth, and it shocks me that 80% of the population seems not to realise that.

[@finnxrobbie]

But what about trans people who want to do sports who don't take hormones?

[@arcsballss]

that’s even more confusing.

[@rajbausing7343]

u have to be in HRT for more than 2 years to compete in the sport u like as a trans person

[@Oliiiiiiiiiiive]

i do race walking (speed walking) which is like the gayest sport because its litterally walking fast which is what we do best

[@miraculousk7547]

These podcasts are so underrated. I feel like I'm learning valuable life lessons from different perspectives within only an hour and a half. :)

[@hermioneadams1408]

I recently started playing soccer and I am a trans man. For my school I asked weather I would be able to play in boys soccer in may. I got the go ahead from my schools athletic director; so I start the practices and go to my first ever soccer game agist boys taller and maybe stronger than me, and I assisted a goal and kick butt. Then the day before school starts and about 3 weeks into the season I was told that I wouldn’t be able to continue playing the boys soccer and would have to play in girls soccer if I wanted to play for school.

[@user-ws3ce5bn6f]

You’d give your male team a disadvantage.

[@NeverStudio8]

​@@user-ws3ce5bn6f watch the video and learn to read

[@penelopeandpriscillaaregay1712]

this conversation was lovely to listen to, and very interesting.

[@benjaming9912]

I did judo as a kid and teen (quite competitively/international etc, was on the national (junior) team up until I was 14 when I quit). At some point I came out as trans (ftm) to my coach and told him I wanted to compete against boys. He was fine with me training and working out with the guys but I wasn’t allowed to use their locker room (instead had to use the girls’). I also wasn’t allowed to compete against boys in tournaments, apparently because of hormone levels and “anatomy” (come onnn I was a prepubescent 14 year old, who fucking cares). But I’d ALWAYS get funny looks (and complaints) competing against girls because I looked like a guy (and identified as one too lmao). got kicked out of the girls locker rooms numerous times to the point where I had to show my ID to get in (and once I did I was really really uncomfortable lol)

[@agosesco7134]

i loved this guest he was direct and honest and very well spoken thank you for giving him a platform

[@heather8011]

I love and adore these folks.

[@andrewsandilands8974]

Thank you for this episode. As a cis gay man who has almost no contact with the trans community (I live in rural England lol😂) I want to understand these issues, but the “information” out there is often conflicting. It’s great to hear from a trans man on this, and from cis men trying to cut through the BS we get in the media. You all made some very valid points and after listening I felt better able to discuss these topics more knowledgeably.

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

Ditto. I'm a 68 yo cis gay man who has lived in the US and UK, and never (knowingly) known any trans folk personally. Some in my family are still very religiously narrow-minded on such issues, so it's good to have additional ammunition.

[@oivenmann9977]

It is super obvious how often Schuyler has talked about this topic, all the facts and talking points were just THERE. This has been very interesting, thanks : )

[@AnimilesYT]

33:41 That's also my experience. Both with gender expression and autism. When I grew up I could not stand autistic people because they triggered my trauma. I just didn't know that I felt like that because I've been masking so heavily. But as uncomfortable as it is watching someone be autistic and watching someone who's gender non conforming, I recognize where these uncomfortable feelings are coming from and I use that to fight against sexism and discrimination

[@gred1698]

THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! even my cis friends who are supportive of me get it all wrong on this subject, and this has been a great insight into some counter-arguments against that. I truly do feel like the moral panic around trans people in sports was just sensationalized by transphobes to prey upon people's sense of fairness :/

[@gwen9939]

Brisket

[@rebecca.smith.]

Cis is extremely offensive. Stop using it and be kind.

[@TheMooRam]

@@rebecca.smith. in what way? Cisgender is simply the etymological opposite of transgender

[@Voiceless_Cheese]

​@@rebecca.smith.How is this offensive? It just means not trans?

[@lilpopism]

@@Voiceless_Cheesebecause it’s being used as a degrogatory slur by trans women towards biological women. It’s not needed. If someone tells you to stop, bloody listen to them

[@kokochono5054]

They should have put this guest speaker on the trans conservatice vs transliberal debate from jubilee. Lol

[@Aury]

Ngl, most of my friends just call it the puberty of suffering, and puberty two: electric boogaloo (though the extremist group who use the name have dampened the enjoyment of that in recent times)

[@augustporter9582]

I am a trans collegiate competitive rock climber/boulder!

[@CurtainRod]

Schuyler Bailar is so cool 🥺

[@ninjakiwigames5418]

39:58 "Ships are referred as she" mhm, makes sense, same in my language. "Cars are refereed as she" wait a second, we refer to them as he. Anyhow this is when I realized he's still talking about English and not how people refer to objects in object gendered languages.

[@Am3lia77]

6:57 “male puberty” might be vague only because we equate male with man, witch is not always the case. They said trans women aren’t male but they are (unless they are intersex). The thing is trans women are women and trans men are men but I like to distinguish between gender terms (man/woman) and sex terms (male/female) because it makes conversations like this more accurate in my opinion. Of course, you can say “testosterone driven puberty” and it’s accurate, but male puberty IS testosterone driven so it’s not that it is more accurate; it might help people who don’t understand the difference between sex and gender follow the conversation or prevent (slightly I’d say) transphobic people to call them males in a derogatory manner. The problem is that by doing this you are in some way saying male and man are the same and female and woman are the same when it’s not accurate.

[@Ash_6614]

male and female as sexes are also vague though, testosterone driven is just a more inclusive and more descriptive way of explaining it

[@marinamemmo3564]

You're exactly right. Gender is a social construct while sex is a biological one.

[@threeofeight197]

I agree that all this nitpicking obscures the true barriers to all ppl being able to enjoy sports. At the same time the reason some of this feels visceral to US folks w daughters might be that we use sports to compete in a hunger games type scenario for access to college.

[@SciGuys]

That's still predicated on the (unsubstantiated) idea that trans women universally dominate cis women in competitive sports, and implies that a trans woman would somehow be less deserving of that university spot. No matter how you slice it, there's still a foundation of transphobia.

[@threeofeight197]

@@SciGuys. Agreed. I think if we had universal education in the US some of the over-focusing on the “trans issue” might decrease? But I guess you have it in the UK too and probably have a better education system than we do. I guess my point is that the false sense of scarcity perpetuated by our system is driving some of the hysteria around trans ppl.

[@owenh.2265]

@@SciGuys The only thing I'm seeing is you and your guest devaluing females to show preference towards males who identify as women.

[@zaedchristie1809]

​@@owenh.2265 that's really funny considering most "defenders of women's sports" believe any man picked off the street can beat elite women's athletes and act like that isn't rooted in misogyny

[@owenh.2265]

@@zaedchristie1809 CBS News: FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team in a scrimmage

[@Alice-ms8vo]

Cory неправильно произнес синий и голубой >:(( также Luke, я сейчас в Ирландии >:((

[@vanessamonster5038]

I agree with you on gingers. My grandma was a ginger, but she outgrew it...went totally white. Also, don't forget how abhorrent lefties are. We should pass a law against allowing children to write with their left hand until they are 18, and can decide for themselves.

[@petrairene]

I think to make any judgement on the matter objective and fair scientific studies should be done where the physical abilities of transitioning athletes, trans men and women are measured before, during and after their tranisioning. And then this has to be compared to the average cis male and female athlete's abilities un der similar training.

[@gwen9939]

There was a study on this that was pretty inconclusive. It didn't use athletes and instead used regular non-athletes and a set training regiment. It also featured both trans men and trans women. Trans men after a year showed a pretty distinct increase in muscle mass following HRT, and while trans women's did decrease, it wasn't as significant, and it was suspected that it's because while Testosterone helps build muscle mass, estrogens help combat atrophy, so since they were maintaining their pre-HRT physique as requested by the study, their muscle mass didn't decrease drastically. It was also a small group and only followed up on after a year, where the Olympics has a guideline that says 2 years.

[@ausnetscience]

This discussion always frustrates me. I’m a retired state nerballer and the fear of not being able to play anymore was a big factor in me not transitioning until I retired. I’m still playing socially and I’m still umpiring and I can definitely confirm anecdotally that HRT has a dramatic effect on my performance. Also the world needs to follow NZ and many other community sports and let kids play. Sports should be about fun and participation and community involvement. You learn a lot of good things from sports and everyone should be able to enjoy it too.

[@pompommania]

I work with a trans female. She clearly has a lot more muscle mass/strength than other women on my floor and is often called on when it comes to needing someone to help with heavier patients. The way I feel about it, men in general have been treating women poorly in history and women rights still aren't taken seriously. Now we have to deal with this and we are treated like biggots if we refuse trans women to unfairly compete in our sports. Why is it that women still can't get support 2023 and men still find a way to take what we have.

[@SciGuys]

She is one single datapoint - I personally know some very strong cis women, that doesn’t mean cis women are universally strong…

[@SciGuys]

Have you read any of the literature on trans athletes, or is this just an assumption?

[@SciGuys]

Here, "the literature" refers to the published scientific papers on the topic. I'd imagine you haven't read through much of it, as on inspection both of those factors appear to be much more complex than you've presented them. Biology, as it turns out, is not as simple as one might assume.

[@SciGuys]

Do you think one meta analysis constitutes “the literature”? If you have to act like meta analyses are not reliable to make your point, maybe it’s not a point worth making. Your lack of understanding is not a lack of evidence.

[@SciGuys]

All of our (multiple) sources are linked below. Get back to me when you have evidence of trans women universally dominating sporting events to the point there’s no meaningful competition.

[@scarylion1roar]

maybe instead of segregating sports by sex/gender, it could be by skill level again

[@riccardozanoni2531]

I feel like chess has a decent solution to this with the elo metric... unfortunately, misogyny is still rampant in chess circles to this day, but the system itself could work (removing the gender segregation of course).

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

Only a nonathlete would make that suggestion.

[@riccardozanoni2531]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 and why is that exactly🤣🤣

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

@riccardozanoni2531 because in every method of segregating sports considered, evaluated, other than by sex, males would consistently do better. The only way for women to have a chance is sex-segregated sports. There is no other way. Title 9 was created for a reason.

[@riccardozanoni2531]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 you seem to have difficulties understanding the concept of "skill level"... let me know if we can help you in any way

[@antonhaq3503]

If you are interested in investigating fairness it doesn't make you transphobic. I just feel that if you express a concern you're immediately called transphobic. There are some sports where a sex difference gives no advantage to either sex but it depends on the sport.

[@SouthernBell86]

I think the body of science in this topic clearly shows that investigating fairness from an actual unbiased view does not make you transphobic. If you approach an issue with genuine curiosity and empathy I don't think you'll be accused of transphobia.

[@Nick-dx2pt]

What's funny to me is there is no "fairness" in sports if there is then people like Michael Phelps wouldn't be allowed to compete and everyone would be first place instead of there being gold medals, bronze medals etc.

[@antonhaq3503]

@@Nick-dx2pt I'm sorry but I don't follow that at all.

[@petrairene]

Yeah, the equestrian disciplines, where the horse does the physical activity, the motor sports, competitive chess (if you consider it a sport)

[@kangyuui]

@@antonhaq3503you should be interested in this if you are as you protest against, that investigating fairness is not transphobia. there are cisgendered athletes with unusual body mutations that provide them indisputable advantages, e.g. Michael Phelps with his wingspan, Yao Ming with his height, to name from just the top of my head. If fairness is what you want to achieve, you have to restrict these people from sports too.

[@the_bandcamp_one]

i find it wild tha archery is organised by gender. I'd assume it comes from the fact that they assume men shoot higher poundage bows but then it would make more sense to categorise by poundage and then bow type like it already is

[@yabseragobena]

Thank you for being a voice of reason 🙏

[@picklerick8971]

I will listen to this episode since I like you guys a lot, my mind right now is that conservatives do have a point in trying to keep sports for female athletes with biologically born females instead of trans athletes, my understanding of this is that if you transitioned after puberty you already gained some "masculine traits" that would actually give an unfair advantage agains cis-women

[@SciGuys]

What do you think after listening?

[@kazearaki853]

@@SciGuys Is there a way to invite actual researchers and not activists? All I'm listening is activists talking points, not actual researchers. It would be best if the researches are of competing views so that we can see them compare notes with each others. Most people are centrist in this debate and aren't interested in watching circle-jerks. We're interested in knowing the current science while at the same time recognizing that the science itself has been politicized (see COVID 19 lab leak for example) and maybe ask questions how many researchers with researches that do not align with the current narrative have been fired, driven out of their universities or have the funding for their researches cut short.

[@LaFemmFatal]

People forget that there exist sports where woman have an advantage I don’t think it’s that important but yeah

[@JayNeemeyer]

Thinking about the points being made at the 15:15/15:40 section. I feel that a lot of people who claim to really care about women in sports couldn't even name 3 recent national/international level women's championship athletes, period.

[@faultyfilo]

could you do a video on compulsive/pathological lying? i am one, and i don't quite understand it myself. could be interesting

[@seto749]

I think that comes off more insulting than you intended.

[@faultyfilo]

@@seto749 how so?

[@seto749]

@@faultyfilo I think I must have replied on the wrong thread; sorry.

[@victorybeginsinthegarden]

So then there should be genderless sports

[@lystic9392]

19:40 This is incorrect framing. You are trying to put away critics as some kind of transphobes. There are people like me, concerned about the competitive advantage. I was looking into it, that's why I came across your podcast, and I was disappointed by the lack of science involved in the conversation. The idea that it matters that the people complaining are typically men is also interesting in its irrelevancy. You don't show why it's relevant other than the prejudice going around in progressive circles about patriarchy and such.

[@UnexpectedTwst]

I'm high school I had a Cisco female destroy all of the people in gym class she was a beast at sports

[@jennifermems1111]

Another thing to consider is that most of us take spironolactone, which is a diuretic and therefore dehydrates us. So, as compared to cis women, we have a massive disadvantage in anything that requires prolonged exertion.

[@marinamemmo3564]

You were right at the start - three guys should not be mansplaining misogyny to feminists. Couldn't you have found any women to interview?

[@SciGuys]

1. That's not what we said & not what this episode was remotely about 2. This isn't an interview 3. We were also looking for a trans woman to join us, but we'd normally only have one guest per episode, and contacting Schuyler ended up being quite easy due to an unexpected mutual connection. 4. We explicitly stated we're planning a future episode specifically covering trans women athletes in more depth, and that we'd have a trans woman athlete join us as a guest 5. Regardless, this episode's topic is trans athletes. Schuyler is a trans athlete. His experiences are perfectly relevant to the topic.

[@HeathenGranny]

One of them is trans so thank you for affirming them you are a good accidental ally. Also transphobia is rooted in misogyny just saying.

[@meowth8225]

Your guest is not a sports scientist, they are an activist with a background in psychology and cognitive neuroscience. Most of the links you provided as evidence were links to news articles and lgbt advocacy groups, not scientific studies. The reference list you included points to another creator's video and cannot be used here. Of the 8 studies you did provide, only 3 of them had anything to do with the core question: does HRT remove biological advantages conferred by male development? The first study concluded that trans women "generally maintained their strength levels." The second study was a systematic review that also concluded, "In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy." The third study was a cross-sectional study with only 8 trans participants, and the researchers attempted to argue that after mass is adjusted for, advantages between males and females disappear: basically, we controlled for the differences between men and women and were able to magic those differences away using statistical fuckery. Yes, this is really what they did, but their argument is still false. Performance differences are retained even after adjusting for mass: "This Olympic weightlifting analysis reveals key differences between male and female strength capacity. It shows that, even after adjustment for mass, biological males are significantly stronger (30%) than females, and that females who are 60% heavier than males do not overcome these strength deficits." Source: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 Finally, your cross-sectional study STILL found that TW had increased grip strength, 31.9 kg, compared to cis women, 29.2 kg. Your own sources do not agree with you, and you're spreading misinformation. This is disappointing coming from science enthusiasts.

[@SciGuys]

We never claimed our guest was a sports scientist, we brought him on because he’s a trans athlete… We provide links to everything that was read in the process of researching the episode, along with some resources which go further in depth. This isn’t a scientific paper, we certainly can link to someone else’s video - given we specifically spoke about said video in the episode. Interesting that you’d dismiss it, given it’s so thorough & was made by someone who does have qualifications in this particular area. As stated in the episode, grip strength isn’t the best metric for overall strength etc. Thanks for sharing that paper - perhaps consider watching the episode, and Jangles video too…

[@ashleigh.]

Why is there so many trans men on this show, but not so many trans women? 😔

[@SciGuys]

Proximity, mostly! We'll definitely be rectifying that soon, though!

[@mxdahliabelle]

​@Sci Guys I'm honestly relieved to see so many men discussing these issues. Women (specifically white women) are over-represented in our community and it hasn't served any of us.

[@themetalgardener4960]

Excellent episode! I really love learning and I want to understand this topic more. I know hormones are way more complicated that most people think of them and science is still figuring them out. What we do know is still probably less than what we don't when it comes to the human body and we as individuals, a culture, and the whole of humanity need to recognize that. I do have one thing that troubled me. I felt like occasionally there was a bit of reductionist thinking or at least word use. Although as it was brought up in this episode, words matter because they come from concepts and they have impacts. I think we need to address transphobia but we also need to realize that it is fear not hate. Granted it can turn to hate or be expressed as such. Not that fear is good by any means. We fear because we are ignorant and/or enculturated in some way. There is also a lot of cognitive dissonance at play. I think most people are not only unaware of their cognitive dissonance but unaware that it even is a thing that happens to us all. Even the "open minded". So we can say or do things that are or perceived as being transphobic when in fact we generally try to be inclusive and accepting with trans people. I know I've done and said things in my past out of ignorance but I try to correct. Just someone saying you are a bad person was never helpful. Letting me know I'm being hurtful by my ignorance was. Saying that something is "just really transphobia" maybe accurate at times but we humans are complex animals and can believe multiple things at once that seem contradictory.

[@themetalgardener4960]

LOL I wrote this right before watching the end of the episode and you addressed this a bit. Although what was said needs to be applied to people who are marginalized as well. Just because you have a feeling, doesn't make it right. You need to look at that feeling in the light of science, history, and general logic. Someone may not be against you, just being ignorant and open to change.

[@bailey_GNEX]

New to this channel, great video! At 1:15:55 roughly y'all discuss a random dude coming in and winning against Serena Williams and one of my favourite memes is from that survey of men. The meme goes something like; you step into the court and smile at Serena. She doesn't smile back. You think she'd be prettier if she did. She serves, and the ball passes directly through your skull, killing you instantly. It's beautiful

[@kazearaki853]

Serena Williams herself acknowledged that men and women tennis are completely different beasts and that she would lose to Andy Murray 6-0, 6-0. She pointed out the different in power between men and women. Look it up yourself if you don't believe me.

[@Voiceless_Cheese]

​@@kazearaki853Yes, but no random middle aged dad would beat her though?

[@littlecatfeet9064]

@@Voiceless_Cheese is a random middle aged dad the best way to compare male and female athletes?

[@Voiceless_Cheese]

@@littlecatfeet9064 I'm just saying that the average Joe aren't going to beat a professional female athlete

[@littlecatfeet9064]

@@Voiceless_Cheese yes, but it’s irrelevant to the question of whether or not biologically male athletes can beat biologically female athletes.

[@thiel_spencer]

Where was this topic a few months back?! (Joking, joking) I wrote a paper for college on this in my argumentative writing class, it would've been so helpful! I don't play sports, but I am a trans man and it hurts to watch all the bullshit anti-trans legislation come out whether it's related to sports or bathrooms or whatever else. Also, Schuyler was a wonderful guest. I really enjoyed his expertise on this topic

[@marcielynn4886]

I competed in surfing as a post op trans female in the 80's nobody knew so nobody cared.

[@SciGuys]

Gnarly!

[@ashtonhickman9737]

i play football i’m a trans guy just for context

[@UnorthodoxSkull]

I’m a trans-man and about to be a college level crosscountry runner. I loved getting to hear from another dude in a similar situation as me, transmen are so often forgotten in these kinds of discussions.

[@jessilovely]

Omg I’m in love, Schuyler is so gorgeous and so smart ❤ 😍

[@s4int_64njo7]

You mean delusional.

[@jessilovely]

Nope, meant what I said ❤ @@s4int_64njo7

[@meredithdurfy2337]

He’s married. Sorry about your bad luck.

[@jessilovely]

I know he’s married lol I follow him on IG 😂 doesn’t make him any less beautiful ❤ @@meredithdurfy2337

[@erenjaeger5146]

i cant remember the show, but britain televised drag and the episode of the show was badly received by america because british people saw it as a joking take on mrs brown’s boys, and could find humour in men eccentrically dressing like older women. it’s sad to see that we’re entirely going backwards.

[@seto749]

Bisexuals should not mock the gay voice. If transgender men can compete with cisgender men without taking anything deemed performance-enhancing, more power to them. It's not a question of being in a normal range. People get disqualified or suspended for all sorts of substances. Now it might be interesting if they wanted to experiment with rules and it likely varies by sport...

[@Goomzz]

I do believe there are already exceptions for taking substances if deemed medically necessary. There are cis men that have to take testosterone replacement too if their bodies are not producing enough of it naturally. It's not performance enhancing when you are only taking enough to make your body perform normal functions, it's an issue when people take more than they need. A doctor's note and the additional testing should be enough to alleviate worries of that. If you do not make any exceptions you get into disability discrimination territory.

[@chrisstanley4405]

Can we just point out the hate directed at the Trans person, who are competing legal due the rules. No one should get that hate for following the rules in place.

[@marywakeman1840]

Disagree with all of this. No I am not transphobic. It's basic biology. Easiest solution until conclusive studies can be done is create category for trans to compete within themselves. More research needs to be done, before anything conclusive can be made. This is most fair solution.

[@SciGuys]

Watch the video, Mary

[@marywakeman1840]

@@SciGuys I did watch whole video.

[@SciGuys]

Then you should be aware of the evidence that contradicts your claim of this being “basic biology”

[@MrCalagon]

If you want to play a sport, play a sport. Gendered sports are not needed.

[@petrairene]

Trans women who have gone through male puberty have an unfair advantage because of the permanent effects this has on bone density, muscle mass, body size, but trans men , who have not gone through male puberty at the appropriate age (when they were still growing!) have an unfair disadvantage to cis males because they are smaller, have the lighter bones etc. So both sides, trans men and women can not compete fairly with their cis colleagues. Nobody talks about the unfair disadvantage of trans men.

[@SciGuys]

Can you substantiate any of this, bearing in mind what was discussed in this episode?

[@threeofeight197]

There are so many factors that create advantages and disadvantages in each different sport that I think it isn’t helpful to generalize this to all trans men or all trans women. In my ideal world each type of sport would come up with a few criteria for entry into the women/men’s category of said sport. These tests would NOT include DNA or genital inspections. Instead it would be things like wingspan for swimming or testosterone level or weight or height. I’ve beaten several men at singles tennis. The difference being that I had access to play tennis as a kid and they didn’t. This is just a random anecdote but I think it’s worth thinking about. Also, can we please get universal access to higher education in the USA so we aren’t competing hunger games style for sports scholarships!!!

[@thomasdonaldjacobs7291]

Tell us you didn't watch the show without telling us that you didn't watch the show...

[@gwen9939]

@@SciGuys Bold of you to assume they heard anything that was discussed in the episode.

[@gwen9939]

trans women don't have higher muscle mass than cis women seeing as testosterone is the reason for the differences in muscle mass between cis men and cis women. Bone density is 1) not as notable as you might think, and 2) a bigger detriment than an advantage since with less muscle mass, powering longer, heavier bones is like having a small engine drive a big car. And once we start measuring the lengths of people's femurs to say if someone should compete or not we're moving into biological essentialism and supremacist ideology. If a trans woman of X height and Y width should be banned whereas a cis woman with the exact same measurements or higher is allowed to compete you're drawing the line at the person being trans, not what their body is actually capable of. Why not allow trans women with petite frames then? Why not ban every cis woman above 6 feet? How about "Your arms and legs must be [this short] to play basketball in this league"? It's supremacist logic that wants to rank and categorize people and wants to ignore the complex nuance and diversity of human biology to make its point.

[@TVJunkie1973]

Not being disrespectful, but none of you are women. This isn’t a funny topic to women.

[@gummynoodles9036]

Are you listening? They’re literally saying trans women have not broken sport records and have no olympic medals

[@SciGuys]

We specifically highlighted us not being women at the very beginning of the episode. We also made it clear that this episode is not solely about women, but athletes as a whole - alongside our plans for a future episode discussing trans women athletes. We aren’t presenting this as a funny topic. We made very clear the seriousness of how this affects & harms both trans and cis people. Essentially all of the humour in this episode is in service of the message of the episode

[@TVJunkie1973]

@@SciGuys I have always enjoyed your channel, but definitely feel that without complete representation on your panel as well as the laughter it was a bit offensive. Not being women you actually cannot see it from that perspective. I think you’re all wonderfully bright and respectful, but can only really only understand based on your own point of view which is not of a woman. Thank you for your time and efforts, however, just as all of you have an opinion so do I as a woman.

[@haukenot3345]

​@@TVJunkie1973I only really remember one time in the episode with a little more laughter, and it was when talking about the degree of misrepresentation that trans athletes have to endure by anti-trans media. Specifically, it was when talking about a trans man being forced to compete in women's competitions who subsequently was criticized by conservative media for exactly that while being misidentified as a trans woman. I don't think that a) this kind of laughter can be construed as anti-woman, nor b) that including a woman on the panel would have changed the way that such a blatant example of dishonest anti-trans rhetoric would have been discussed. I do agree that it might have been smart to limit the discussion to trans male athletes' issues specifically since that is Schuyler's own perspective. But they did promise they would do an episode on trans women in sports in the future and would invite a woman as a guest for that.

[@TVJunkie1973]

@@haukenot3345 Thank you for clarifying and taking the time to address my concerns. It is greatly appreciated and this conversation is a very important one to have.