Do You Need to Train Rear Delts, Traps and Forearms Directly?

[@DrSwole]

Should you do pyramid sets, reverse pyramid sets, or straight sets? Find out here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHSvmK1qaNV4otE

[@HughMyronBrah]

This man just removed 4 sets of reverse pec-dec from my routine and added 4 sets of cable rows

[@Borderbeach]

That's better way to go for most for sure. And since you use more weight most people stimulate more growth cause of that too.

[@kronk5072]

I honestly believe isolating these three muscles are optimal overall. Additionally, the opportunity cost mentioned at the beginning seems to not be too much of an issue. The SFR of rear delt swings is solid , and the SFR for forearms + traps can be altered depending on the exercise selection. Overhead shrugs for example help with decompression while being a lighter weight variation, and DB shrugs focusing on scapular elevation in addition to scapular retraction has lighter weight (hence why Dr. Mike mentions intermediates can have trap gains from floor pulls alone, but shrugs + lateral raise superset will destroy the traps in an optimal way). Forearm wise, support grip being trained from the lifts itself seems to be suboptimal instead of strapping up for each lift. This strategy avoids task failure being a limiting factor for completing the desired rep ranges, while enabling for all three types of grip to be directly trained with frequency, intensity , and measurable progression (I like a giant set of plate pinches for digit flexor strength, finger curls for crushing strength, and dead hangs or barbell holds for support strength). Heavier reverse grip curls I can see the SFR being relatively impactful (albeit to me still worth it), but hammer curls enable a solid SFR due to getting more out of less weight by comparison. Face pulls, side lying dumbbell external rotations , and standing cable external rotations are all good for rotator cuff work without a fatigue cost too since the loads are light. Overall, isolations are not extremely fatiguing in and of themselves,which is why many people (for example Natural Hypertrophy) utilize them in giant set fashion to compliment the compounds as main work. No matter the split, work for these three body parts can be fit in without much issue (especially using straps rendering forearm fatigue a non factor). In an upper/lower and PPL, forearm + rear delt work is self explanatory. Shrug variations can be saved for the Deadlift lower day (which enables more out of less weight in the shrug itself due to pre exhaustion), and if you're doing deadlift variations both lower days follow the same principle or on the non deadlift day shrugs on the corresponding upper/pull work just fine. And if someone is utilizing other exercises for spinal erectors to replace the Deadlift,heavy power shrugs are a lot easier to justify. I love farmers walks, but the SFR from a bodybuilding perspective is pretty poor (albeit they do double as support grip work so it could be efficient for a full body sans deadlift due to how much fatigue the lower body accrued for stabilizing the load through gait). The rows will take care of rhomboids and low + mid traps, but upper trap stimulus is not nearly as prevalent compared to a shrug or farmers walk. Many naturals seem to have lagging forearms, upper traps, rear delts, and grip work; this is why I generally disagree with the conclusion of this video. If this mentality rang true, I think fewer people would have these muscle groups as a weaker point. I'm still a big fan of this channel, and am thankful for your split breakdowns! They provide a clear resource I can show those starting out in order to best comprehend hypertrophy strategies.

[@DrSwole]

Appreciate the thoughtful comment! I think that at a higher level / if one has time you could get some incremental benefit from adding on extra isolation work. But I think a lot of people would end up doing less of your bread and butter basic training to pursue this

[@DrSwole]

How much time do you spend in the gym per week?

[@kronk5072]

@@DrSwole Yeah if people decide to skew training towards isolation that's a different story. That's why I think giant setting things is so powerful For example Natural Hypertrophy's strategy for those who run full body is to superset isolations of antagonistic muscle groups after a compound to save time (OHP into a curl or chin up into extension). I honestly think if people want the forearm and trap size in addition to support grip strength (which at least has the most application to lifting) , a farmers walk finisher can help them maintain the integrity of their program without being too much. But they are a hard lift to manage SFR wise, hence why I think just doing shrugs and hammer curls for pure hypertrophy (while strategically targeting when to not use straps to build some support strength) can work way better due to less stability involved. The same applies to movements surrounding the core too; I know you mentioned that in a prior video, but training to improve core function directly (anti extension , anti rotation, rotational strength, anti lateral flexion) has carryover into lifting more in a way that surpasses just a weighted crunch. Thus, it's easier to justify throwing those in a routine. I find grip or giant sets take like 10 extra minutes tops, and the benefits are staggering while the recovery is extremely manageable. Time wise for me, I find I can get in and out of the gym in the 45-75 minute range depending on the day.

[@kronk5072]

@@DrSwole Also I think a strategy for these muscle groups in a PPL can be optimized. Pull / Push / Legs / Push / Pull / Legs gives the freedom needed for this. Heavy shrugs/ upper back work on pull 1 and 2 , deadlift heavy + lighter shrug variation on leg day 1, and non upper back heavy movements on leg day 2. Rear delt and forearm + grip work can just be on those same days since the grip training community ideally reccomend thrice a week frequency (and straps give that ability).

[@Catalinddm]

Agreed, although I would recommend training rear delts with higher volume, especially for the rotator cuff. Cheers, great tips.

[@DrSwole]

The rotator cuff is important to pay attention to 👌🏼

[@DrSwole]

Do you have rotator cuff issues?

[@Catalinddm]

@@DrSwole actually, yes. It's not necessarily very grave, but I do need to strengthen. And I have tight shoulders in general... I have issues sometimes even when squating.

[@fililppo7956]

I'm training my rear delts directly but I wasn't sure if it was a good idea so I guess that in my next program I won't include them and I'll do more volume for back and side delts. Thank you for the great information

[@johnmorrison7205]

Liked that you added the caveat at the beginning that if you have the time there can be definite benefits to isolation work for these muscle groups

[@positiveandhealthy2728]

This was actually surprisingly helpful

[@DrSwole]

Glad it helped!

[@DrSwole]

Do you train your rear delts/traps/forearms directly?

[@ParvParashar]

Great video and very well explained. Thanks for sharing all the valuable knowledge!

[@DrSwole]

You’re welcome!

[@adamreiter6012]

Exactly the video i needed. Thank you

[@Supinori]

Great video! Thanks for all the info!!

[@zelenisok]

45 degrees bent over rows and lean forward / slightly bent over shrugs will build the best (upper) traps, due to the direction of the upper trap muscle fibers which connect near the shoulders. In fact I'd say the upper traps are developed better by even regulare rows than by regular shrugs. Regular shrugs will somewhat build upper traps, but I think it they will focus more on levator scapulae, and it can be good to develop those muscles too. Tho if one goes to the grocery store twice a week and carries bags from it, it's not really necessary to do shrugs lol..

[@maksimlozanoski]

You make great Informational vids, you deserve more views!!

[@DrSwole]

Thanks my friend! Help me share the channel around 👌🏼

[@DrSwole]

What are your goals?

[@maksimlozanoski]

@@DrSwole I just finished my mini cut after 1 year of lean bulking, now I'm starting a lean bulk again!

[@DrSwole]

@@maksimlozanoski okay nice!

[@its_james_fitness]

My man worked a shift and still got back to finish the damn video at night 😔👐

[@TavinderUbhu]

Very good video, and very different topic.👍✌️🙏

[@DrSwole]

Thanks my friend

[@DrSwole]

Do you train your rear delts/traps/forearms directly?

[@TavinderUbhu]

@@DrSwole I train my rear delts twice a week, traps once in 15 days because my shoulders are not so big if my traps grow too big i'll look like a frog. I have good forearms so i don't train them at all. 🙏👍 Thank you sir

[@DrSwole]

@@TavinderUbhu 👍🏼

[@MrDeerclops]

Thanks. This video answered to all my questions.👍

[@DrSwole]

Glad it helped!

[@carlosmorris4510]

Wow, I never knew... My traps blow up from lateral raises! I don't train traps & rear delts directly, but just forearms - 1× a week (mainly for grip).

[@DrSwole]

Yeah I think doing lots of side delt work has multiple benefits 👌🏼

[@DrSwole]

What do you do for forearms?

[@carlosmorris4510]

@@DrSwole Just getting back to your question now... 😏 I use a powerful spring-loaded gripper (bought it from an old bodybuilding magazine years ago) and a wrist roller to work my forearms. I also have some fat-gripz. Primarily I only do neutral wrist position exercises; no wrist curls - as I've heard that they can result in the pinching of a nerve in your inner forearms over time (I'm not certain that this is true - but there it is). I do reverse curls and my wrist roller for my outer forearms. I hit forearms after biceps.

[@DrSwole]

@@carlosmorris4510 👍🏼

[@Wetterwet]

Hey, doc. Going through some older videos of yours. Dumbbell bench wrist curl made my forearms explode! Got some sick veins popping in the forearms also.

[@DrSwole]

Glad they're working out for you

[@atquinn1975]

Great advice!

[@DrSwole]

Thanks my friend!

[@DrSwole]

Do you train rear delts/traps/forearms directly?

[@atquinn1975]

@@DrSwole I'm just a beginner, so I'm focusing on compound movements to build overall strength

[@DrSwole]

@@atquinn1975 good man

[@pau3464]

So good man

[@headintheclouds2]

I know this is an older video but whatever lol.... I have begun to develop pain from bar bell curls that radiates down my ulnar bone and really hurts when I lay the weight down. I have started to add in some forearm exercises to help with supination mobility. Just found the channel and subscribed.

[@astroyed992]

Why does my wrist click when doing upright row

[@DrSwole]

Hard to say without examining you. If there's a lot of pain you should bring it up with a doctor or physio

[@astroyed992]

@@DrSwole alright man thank you

[@newtoss]

So can i ask what kind of horizontal pulls is your go to? New to the channel, How to do the facepulls please so a video bro

[@Wayf4rer]

I think high/inverted rows and face pulls are enough for rear delts. Forearms don't need isolation, but they're so easy to grow with wrist rollers and direct work you're missing out on by not isolating. Traps don't really need isolation, imo. Basically, do loaded carries, inverted rows, and face pulls and you're good imo. Wrist roller if you want extra forearm gains.

[@binyamgebreselassie5807]

what do you think about wrist curls and reverse curl?

[@Wayf4rer]

@@binyamgebreselassie5807 Both are good but I really don't do a ton of isolation, and tbh I've seen great brachioradialis gains from inverted rows.

[@DrSwole]

Glad you agree with focusing on compounds

[@DrSwole]

@@Wayf4rer How do you progress your inverted rows in terms of resistance?

[@Wayf4rer]

@@DrSwole More volume usually, but I have used a backpack and plates as well

[@user-zk4dv2nx8k]

Great video . Was watching one by E3 Rehab where they debunked impingement myths . They said that the grip width on upright rows does not affect injuries .🤔

[@yushy5816]

I personally like training rear delts, as I don't find them particularly fatiguing to add. I did however stop doing shrugs ages ago, just unnecessary of you pull/hinge.

[@DrSwole]

Fair enough

[@DrSwole]

How many days a week do you train?

[@yushy5816]

i train legs/off/push/pull/off. usually add it to my pull days. i agree with your points though. if i did a 2-3 day a week full body, i would be much less inclined to do any extra rear delt isolation.

[@DrSwole]

@@yushy5816 cool

[@BlueLectic]

im training the rear delt by doing face pull 1-2 times a week for 3 sets, so not to much but its realy good for the rotator cuff

[@DrSwole]

Great choice. Hitting the rotator cuff at the same time is efficient

[@DrSwole]

Do you have shoulder issues?

[@BlueLectic]

@@DrSwole no but im dont wanna wait for the issue im starting already

[@DrSwole]

@@BlueLectic good man

[@ozaira9]

great point about rear delts already being used in pulling motions and prioritizing side delts over them.

[@DrSwole]

Cheers!

[@DrSwole]

Do you train them directly?

[@ozaira9]

@@DrSwole I think I'll hit my side delts with lateral raises and upright rows and leave my regular rowing to hit my back and rear delts. As for forearms I feel the need to train them due to my grip strength starting to limit my deadlift and rdl.

[@DrSwole]

@@ozaira9 sounds fair

[@joshuawalston9044]

Will chin ups hit rear delts ?

[@DrSwole]

Yes to a small extent

[@joshuawalston9044]

@@DrSwole ok thank you for responding

[@DrSwole]

@@joshuawalston9044 👊🏼

[@aakashkapoor8933]

I see, so Dr. First of all, great video. I am currently following your 4 day upper lower split and looking at this video, i believe I should not add any extra trap forearm or rear delt exercise as there are plenty of rows and pulling movements that can actually work. Also as I am doing side raises and some biscep curls on all the 4 days(your modified upper lower split) forearms and traps should not be an issue right? Waiting for your response

[@Dilly_Dil1y]

Hey dr swole! Do a ppl upper lower hybrid program. I want to workout each body part twice a week but only have 5 days of the week to workout.

[@DrSwole]

I have one out already!

[@DrSwole]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnmuf4iYaL6Ufs0

[@Dilly_Dil1y]

@@DrSwole thanks 👍🏻👍🏻

[@moustaphabalde7581]

hey man i dont know if this would make you angry or not but would you mind taking a look at a progrwm ive written for myself and tell me what i could be doing better? ps i deeply appreciate your content and it feels good when i know its coming from a natural doctor

[@slatermauro2092]

I recently went through a 12 week cutting phase where i managed to go from 190 to 169. I formerly was eating about 2850 calories to maintain my weight of 190. I am now trying to lean bulk. Week 1-5 was good. I now weigh 171.5lbs, but somehow week 6-8 i lost weight eating 3250 calories. Week 9 i even managed to lose 0.6lbs whilst eating 3500 My level of activity hasn't changed and im eating alot more calories than i did when i weighed 20lbs heavier. How can this be? And should i increase my calories even more? If any one has answer please help.

[@MasterDChief]

Love this ✊🏼

[@DrSwole]

Thanks man!

[@DrSwole]

Do you train your rear delts/traps/forearms directly?

[@MasterDChief]

@@DrSwole I stopped a lil while back just made sure I did a couple neutral or pronated curls for some additional forearm work. I also added some DB upright rows in recently and love em so far. I have pretty decent genetics for traps and delts but these are perfect complementary lifts for me.

[@DrSwole]

@@MasterDChief nice. Db upright rows were a staple for me early on

[@jadecleveland865]

I train my right forearm about 3-4 times a day

[@finnishgains9688]

AYO🤔🧐🧐🧐

[@sergio1503]

Neck training?

[@DrSwole]

Good suggestion

[@DrSwole]

Do you train neck?

[@EL-ERIC]

Respect✊🏽🍻

[@Latissimus65]

Great vid! Making me rethink how I distribute my volume. Helms has said the same thing about eliminating trap work and seeing no diff in lifters on balanced programs. Ive got a question, curious to hear your response. Lets say I do 12 compound back sets per week and wanna bring up rear delts a bit. If I do 3 more sets of compound pulling that will add more overall fatigue than adding 3 sets of direct rear delt work. More fatigue means other areas (leg work, chest work, etc) are sacrificed slightly and you may not be able to do as much for them. Plus 12 is already on the lower end. Ive been lifting for over a decade so Im fairly experienced but delts/traps have typically been a little behind the rest of my upper body and Ive always been in this crossroads of which route to take, the one you explained vs the example I gave. It does seem like shrugs, rear delt flies, and vertical pressing are becoming more and more rare. Maybe not worth the investment. I hate shrugs more than any exercise lol. If I remove some of this upper body iso work I could probably do like a ~5 day UL over a ~5 day PPL and give more emphasis towards legs which is another area I wanna bring up.

[@Kosiduss]

Hey, this isnt directly related to this video but I wanted to ask you about counting volumes for different body parts from compound movements. For example I have a program which focuses on compound exercises like weighted push ups and pull pups. I started adding some isolation exercises like curls to increase my arm volume. But I don't know if I should count pull ups as bicep volume, so what i've been doing is counting compound volume as half direct volume so for example: 6 sets of weighted pull-ups = 3 sets of bicep volume which i had to my 6 sets of curls. Do you think this is a good way to do it?

[@pulkitalawadhi6679]

hi dr swol i had a doubt regarding volume in studies they recommend 10-20 sets per week for a body part so for example if training chest are these 10-20 total sets for whole chest or for individual upper pec middle pec lower pec?

[@DrSwole]

10-20 for the whole chest. Volume is very individual though so you'll want to test it out

[@DrSwole]

How long have you been training for?

[@pulkitalawadhi6679]

I have lifted for few months twice before but have been consistent since a year

[@pulkitalawadhi6679]

For chest I do 4 exercises 3 sets each twice a week

[@DrSwole]

@@pulkitalawadhi6679 okay nice!

[@randyle4520]

We need a real dr on the dr greg podcast with dr mike

[@DrSwole]

That would be fun ahah

[@Faaababaa]

Hi Mr Swole, would you say that it is necessary to train biceps and triceps directly? I’d think that arm muscles are basically always trained no matter the exercise. Wouldn’t adding more exercises like rows and press also get better full body results?

[@finnishgains9688]

That's actually a good question I sometimes wonder that myself too

[@joshshneyder1545]

do you want bigger biceps and triceps? if so yes

[@Faaababaa]

@@joshshneyder1545 I also want bigger rear delts, traps, and forearms, yet coach tells me he doesn't schedule it in. Got to give me a better answer than what you gave.

[@joshshneyder1545]

@@Faaababaa Accessory work like curls, rear delts, forearms, etc aren't necessarily required but if you have the time to do them they WILL definitely benefit your physique. Although, I wouldn't really recommend traps (and maybe forearms depending on your program) (although it depends on your goals) because out of all the small muscles, they get used the most. Though rear delts are important, there's a reason so many people have lacking shoulders... normally there front delt is fine, side delt is alright, but rear delt is non-existant because they think it's fine not to train it at all. It's a super slow twitch muscle and can tolerate a lot of damage and if you can work it, you should definitely do so

[@Faaababaa]

@@joshshneyder1545 Gotcha, thanks for the explanation!

[@kenrocketman897]

Algo gang commenting

[@DrSwole]

Appreciate the support!

[@DrSwole]

Do you train rear delts/traps/forearms directly?

[@noloveforthehaters]

John Meadows would _strongly_ disagree that rear delts are overtrained and I'd take his advice over some skinny guy any day.

[@jtsandig]

honestly upper traps are probably one of the most over trained muscles. any overhead press, lateral raise, upright row, deadlift, and maybe some row variations hit them to a significant degree.

[@Masterdesstruct]

Imma quit training rear delts. I dont even see Mike Israetel doing them.

[@DrSwole]

I think that’s a good call, for time efficiency’s sick

[@noloveforthehaters]

Mike swears by face pulls.

[@innovatixn99]

Problem with most forearm exercises is that they are so boring.

[@EmpoDaddy99]

What about the ones that cause left and right forearm imbalances? 😏

[@evernew23]

@@EmpoDaddy99 they still get boring unless it’s someone else doing it

[@Reppintimefitness]

🔥💯🔥

[@DrSwole]

Thanks bro!

[@DrSwole]

How's your week

[@finnishgains9688]

@@DrSwole i love your videos man and it's always so special seeing you reply to almost every comment and then asking them a follow up question! It's quite rare nowadays seeing so genuine and nice content creator that interacts with his fans! Love your vids and content keep it up bro!💪🔥🦍

[@DrSwole]

@@finnishgains9688 thanks brother! A big reason for me making this channel was to engage with the community so it’s fun getting into the comments ahah

[@DrSwole]

@@finnishgains9688 do you train rear delts/traps/forearms directly?

[@DJSTOEK]

😷👽

[@DrSwole]

👊🏼

[@fcstrength7058]

Never have, never will 🐄🐄🐄

[@DrSwole]

👌🏼

[@alex003paris6]

👍💪