Does an MMO need a story? [MMOPINION]

[@thelazysword3789]

A good story and characters makes me care about the world.

[@Kenosene]

Pretty much the same here, and that not only applies to MMORPG. I remember when I played GTA Online just after finishing the story, and the game didn't click for me in the same way. I had no interest after some hours played.

[@fartloudYT]

'a good story and characters makes me care about the world'. sounds like yet another good argument why SWTOR should have been just KOTOR 3.

[@astealoth]

Does the opposite for me. As soon as there's some contrived nonsense in my way, it takes me right out of the world.

[@acky12489]

I have 0 desire to "Care about the world" in a MMO. I want loot. Period.

[@akadreku7327]

Dont confuse lore and story

[@Road_to_Dawn]

While I was playing FF14, I realized something. If you do the Warring Triad quest series and each of the role quests from Shadowbringers, you get an exclusive quest that follows up on all of these, and that blew my mind. That gave me the idea for a game where the entire thing is nothing but what are essentially “side quests”, but they all connect to other side quests. If you finish quests 1, 2, and 3 (in any order), you can do quest 4. If you do quests 5 and 6, you can do quest 7. If you do quests 4 and 7, you can do quest 8. That sort of thing. That way, the world continually grows alongside your progress, but without a main story, so it’s all at your whim and where you decide to go next. As you go through it, each quest becomes a payoff of a previous quest. This can also bring together many different characters you’ve interacted with that all remember how you helped them, and you can watch their stories continue to play out together. Additionally, it becomes a nice surprise when you see two quest lines you really liked have merged together to give you a new quest that follows off of both of them. Looking at the different examples Josh illustrated, I suppose mine would be maybe a hybrid of examples 2 and 3, but with the potential of all the quests connecting to each other at some point.

[@Anolaana]

That's basically Runescape - a web of interconnected quests, but no "main story" ;)

[@ZZValiant]

AFAIK, Runescape kind of does this.

[@crankpatate3303]

I think your idea is great! I would like to add to this, that I think instead of creating quests with branching outcomes in terms of decisions, I would much more enjoy a more general quest goal and then you as the player can figure out how to achieve that goal. This is sadly a very rare quest structure, but some games do it (gothic 1 and gothic 2 are two good, but very old examples. Kingdom Come: Deliverance has a bit of it, too). Think about it: Quest goal, get rid of the Werewolf issue in village XXX, You could go investigate and use your well trained senses from your ranger class to analyse the crime scenes, etc. Or you could use your charisma while talking to people to get info or you could help heal a wounded person, that might have seen things happen or you could sneak into peoples houses as a thief and look for clues. Or maybe there's a thief locked up in the dungeon and he claims to know who it is, but only tells you if you help him out of the prison (you could pay him out/ bribe the guards or knock the guards out and steal the keys, etc.) Or you could just start murdering every villager until one of them reveals himself as the werewolf eventually. Maybe something goes wrong with your way of trying to solve this and you accuse the wrong person or you get caught sneaking and stealing and now the village wants to hang you for your crimes. So there's still a chance for you to frick up your way and now you either have to figure out how to calm them down and get out of this mess or you know... purge the whole village and get rid of the werewolf eventually. In every case here you manage to purge the village from the werewolf issue. But you did it YOUR way and you forged your own adventure within this quest. Slap some sort of morality and/ or crime system on top of this and you will create a somewhat dynamic world, that can value your doings and give you new quests depending on what quests you've done, how morally you've done it & where you currently are on the morality scale. Maybe you get invited to the thiefs guild only if you're at a specific morality level, maybe you can only get the faction quest for the paladins order, if your morality is high enough, etc. etc. (this also means, failing a quest and then deciding to go for the morally wrong solution could kick you from a faction because of this. And maybe open you a new quest chain with the chance to redeem yourself after you got your morality high enough again.) I have to stop here, but you can see, these quest chain ideas basically write themselves, are immersive and leave way more room for self expression in terms of your RP fantasy. Yes, this quest design may be more intense, but it's WAY higher quality. To the point where this quest design is probably inviting people far more to create alts and experience the same quests again, but with an other RP fantasy approach and they will have fun every time. ------------- In very short: I think more studios should create quest chain designs not like they currently are: Branching like a tree. But much rather they should create a pyramid = Always the same quest goal, but many branching ways to achieve said goal.

[@nikgervae]

Welcome to World of Warcraft, 2004-2006. 😛

[@A-Dino-Named-Mennany]

@@crankpatate3303 That sounds like a whole lotta work to develop, but _incredibly_ fun to play.

[@FarelForever]

I find a split into chapters valuable for this video: 0:00 Opening 1:33 The MMO story types 2:06 1) No Story 5:16 2) Optional Stories, but not the focus 7:27 3) Story Focused, but each story is independant and concurrent. They all have an ending 10:03 4) Stand-Alone Stories. Linear Progression from Story to Story 12:54 5) Multi-Year Main Story Focused 16:53 Summary

[@Dyanosis]

Most videos need video chapters. But I think the problem is that most Content Creators don't want to take the time to do so. Too much effort. You could probably make good money doing this type of "organization"/"transcription" for many channels.

[@DoAGoldeneye]

Do I have to experience this video in one focused session? Or can I pick and choose my narrative?

[@FarelForever]

@@DoAGoldeneye It's a choose your own adventure video, but be warned that most paths do end with you dying.

[@TheRevan1337]

Swtor's story put story considerations on the map in my mind. It wasn't something that I was considering in MMOs before that.

[@kokocaptainqc]

worlds already known NEED a strong story in their mmo or they are doomed from the start...games like SWTOR, ESO, LOTRO all need super good stories because thats what people expect from those worlds...the new LOTR mmo will probably be pvp survival and will totally fail because cutting a tree in any world is just as fun as cutting a tree in middle-earth...its still just a tree that youre cutting and thats it

[@oshaapproved7612]

Story matters a lot, but if you're going to forgo a "main story" the game needs to have EXCEPTIONALLY robust systems to allow players to create their own meaningful stories. and unfortunately I think it's just too expensive for most companies to invest in a game that much.

[@LukaSauperl]

You can't have a game without gameplay, but you can have a game without story. (Tetris, Minecraft used to be without a story)

[@antongrigoryev6381]

@@LukaSauperl It all depends on the type of the game. Tetris isn't really meant to be anything more than a bit of fun time, while Minecraft is the most classic sandbox game there is. Some other types of games without a story may be session-based competitive games, like League of Legends (I know it has lore for the world and characters, but it doesn't matter for the game itself). MMORPGs are neither. They are _supposed_ to tell stories, that's what RPG stands for. Tetris-like simplicity or pure competitive focus, the two of the things that normally allow storyless gameplay to function, would ultimately change the genre of the game, and the third option, the sandbox one - it's possible, but it requires a huge amount of mechanics that allow players customization and that are very difficult to implement, which is what the original commenter was talking about. In other words, you can make a _game_ without a story, but you can't make _MMORPG_ without one. It can be a story made by the players themselves, but the game has to have mechanical support for that sort of thing, which isn't easy.

[@fires2398]

I think greed fuels all the decisions of a lot of these companies. Creating a compelling story takes effort and this is effort a lot of companies aren't willing to put in as their objective is easy and quick low effort money. This is evident by the half baked nonsense they push out the door. Everyone is in such a rush to just get it out there and move on to creating the next game. A lot of these devs also probably have tight deadlines. You hear a lot about the crunch in these companies and the unfavourable working conditions so I imagine it would be very difficult in that environment as well to create a good story. Not a fan of the whole create your own story, or fun narrative as that is what I am paying them for lol.

[@janrautenstrauch4729]

I don't think it's just about the costs but... how do i put it? Playing with thousands of other players who're "creating" their own "meaningful" stories is kinda impossible to manage for a long-running medium like a mmorpg with multiple addons planned. The amount of writing and options for decisions-making would make planning an expansion - which would have to continue those "plotlines" - a nightmare. It is possible in singleplayer cause you are in your own world... but in a multiplayer with thousands od other players around you who would have their won,unique story... i can't even image how that would work without destroying the whole shared-world-aspect that's part of the whole mmo-experience. And it isexceptionally hard to create a story when the player can fo anything he/she wants (like killing important npcs for example). Ther's areason why sandbox-mmos are not known for their great, immersive stories.

[@steve69man420ayylmao]

i play BDO, 90% of ppl don't pay attention to the story. they just kill shit, so imo it doesn't need a story

[@SventFulgur]

I definitely fall into the #5 camp. I play RPG's strictly to be invested in a world and its inhabitants and includes MMO's. I can find a games systems and customization to be absolutely amazing but if I don't have any attachment to the world and its characters I'm likely to play a long seesion or two and forget it exists.

[@Thesentrysdad]

2 and 3 are definitely my preferred structures. A pet peeve of mine is when an mmo starts with our character getting a tutorial from some other character that is really important in the setting. Like in Star Wars Galaxies, they changed the intro so that Han Solo saves our character from the empire. I keep thinking that it's really weird how Han Solo personally saved every single player from the Empire, he can't have enough time in the day for that. Whereas with the old intro, our character was saved from pirates by the Empire. Like maybe you could say it is a little weird that every player was saved from pirates, but I can believe that a lot of people in the Star Wars setting have had some kind of run in with pirates, and that the nearest equivalent of the police do their job and save civilians from criminals on a regular basis. It obviously just comes down to personal preference but I generally like when the story of an mmo is written with the mmo aspect in mind, so that the fact that a lot of player characters are coexisting and more than likely interacting makes at least some sense. Like if two players were to role play and tell each other about their journeys, it's nice if they can at least make it sound like they've been on two separate journeys, instead of both players doing the exact same story. So like if two heroes in City of Heroes say they've talked to the same contact, it's not crazy that they both talked to that contact and received similar missions to stop random criminals, because if a city had an army of heroes they likely would talk to the same, relatively few contacts and fight the same gangs, just based on proximity.

[@boobah5643]

I don't mind either way, but I find it rather annoying when the game tells you that the PC is the Chosen One, but then the entire story revolves around other characters. Sure, _FFXIV_ railroads you into playing through the main story quest (everything else is locked behind it,) but at least your PC is the one who does stuff. Mind, as a trade off, the player doesn't really get to choose what that stuff is. Compare to _WoW,_ where, because there's no assurance that anybody has done _any_ of the content (although it's kind of a pain to dodge some of the 'gateway to the expansion' quests) everything that happens in the story happens because of the NPCs. Which means the player has just as much ability to influence the story as in _FFXIV,_ only they have less investment in it because the story just kinda happened around them, and nobody actually remembers that you saved the Jade Temple or tortured those cultists for information.

[@justinwhite2725]

This is what I dislike about most mmo stories. We are the chosen one or the hero who did x... Great for a single player game but super weird in an mmo. Guild Wars 2 struck a better balance with that. Usually it recognizes that other people are doing the same objective.

[@m.ubaidaadam]

Personally I’m a fan of smaller interconnected stories that allow me to experience the world without needing to be a part of some great quest. While it’s great to feel like the main character, sometimes I want to feel like an Average adventurer trying to help people the best I can. An overarching story is still a great addition but the quiet quests in between are for some reason just as enjoyable for me if not more. Maybe that’s why I’ve stuck with RuneScape for a lot longer then I should have.

[@thebadlord4733]

That's Kind of the reason why I'm stuck with albion atm. I'm not a hero destined to safe the world, I'm not a superhuman or immortal or whatever and have to stop the ancients evils from destroying the world or safe the entire universe. I'm just a human mining ore and skinning animals, and the fact that everyone else is the same as me in the world it makes me feel more like a part of it then any other mmo ever did

[@retryhikaru184]

this is awesome perspective, thank you guys for sharing it @@thebadlord4733 @m.ubaidaadam

[@calebcasual]

also applies to WoW, especially classic up to wrath. In ffxiv you're this warrior of light and all important, in WoW a lot of the time you're just an average adventurer, azeroth is the main character in Classic, and the lich king is like the main character in Wrath. It helps you feel a small part of a massive world. That said love runescape and played it like 15 years, the questing is honestly some of the best I've ever seen and always worth doing. Honestly I prefer just being an average adventurer, just part of the reason I even got into MMO's, if I wanted to be the main character I'd play a single player game.

[@Tyler-dg7fo]

Typically, if I am going to devote a large amount of time to an MMO, something I'll play for years, I like a narrative story to be building to something. I don't like too many isolated stories, because it feels like there's no real canon between them sometimes, your accomplishments exist only within the very local area they happen in. But I do like the idea of an open world existing for me to explore and having the choice of whether to pursue that narrative, rather than being explicitly locked into it.

[@NintenJon64]

Agreed. Really think most MMO developers would benefit following a similar narrative structure as ESO.

[@anonimowelwiatko9811]

Imagine thinking players who are into role playing games want to... have their own story within game. Crazy thought, right? I understand you and this is exactly what I feel about games too. I don't want to be a pawn or a hero. I want to exist within world with possibility to take part in quests and events that world has to offer. I don't want to be pushed from point A to point B or will be punished with making no progress. I want to choose direction and action while being introduced by game to it's world, characters and mechanics naturally. Not many games are capable of doing that but those that do are very memorable.

[@PetyrC90]

So you want an artificial story that makes you the big hero in a mmo world? This is so artificial and dumb.

[@NintenJon64]

@@PetyrC90 Uhh. Did you read the OP? I don’t even get your attitude here. We were just talking about an MMO design where you can feel immersed and part of the game’s world and are free to pursue the story instead of being forced into it. In this theoretical design, the game would account for your actions having long-lasting effects that shape how characters respond to you, story elements, and zones of the open world.

[@PetyrC90]

@@NintenJon64 this that you said doesn't work as mmo. The small story thing is actually more immersive because you, the player, can choose what to do and what not to do. The idea of a main epic story in a mmo is dumb. Because you know everybody is doing the same things and quests because the game forced them to. And seeing npcs calling my character by "hero" or something falls very flat and hollow. The small stories and your connection with the world matters more than a single story.

[@TheSismeon]

I was also intimidated by the scale of the FF14 story but as I got into it, it really became my favourite model for a story. I play extremely casually and in a sense, playing FF14 is like reading an very long novel with a great narrative. Although, unlike many of my friends, I actually enjoyed the base game a lot but, without any spoilers, the events between the base game and heavensward had some of the best story telling I've ever seen and the expansion somehow lived up to that standard through and through. So to me this is perfect. I work hard all day and play about an hour every evening and a bit more in the weekend and watch the story unfold over time.

[@MichaelSwart-xv3il]

Thing with ff14 is old content is always someway relevant and solo proof, I mean the only real group content is dungeons/raids, and the roulette brings veterans back to that old content by rewarding them and also helping new players, also there is no fomo with ff14, game is massive, new people start it every day, it's coming to xbox which will boost it again, but I will say as someone who's read everything, I don't find the story to be that good but I'm a minority with that opinion, I think there's too much filler and too little gameplay

[@josepazelli2653]

I feel different. I hate FFXIV narrative, its feel like an animated book thats true, but it brings a lot of boring parts and they like to do that a lot and i didnt find that well written to care about most minor characters as well.

[@MemoryMori]

Enjoy, dont rush, you will enjoy it all :D :D Its 10 years of content, no need to take it all in in two weeks. I too prefer FFXIV: A Realm Reborn style of storytelling. Many characters become my personal favourive, even if they are enemies... Wow for exmple, has like 5 of them? FFXIV:A Ralm Reborn has like 300 :D :D

[@MichaelSwart-xv3il]

@josepazelli2653 yeah my experience with the game has basically been, plenty of slog and filler bullshit, then some really cool epic stuff then hours of slog and bullshit again, the narrative is honestly so overly complicated at times that I don't even really know what the fuck is going on in the story. I'd prefer if it was more simple like oh there's a old god that's returned and wants to end the world and you and the rest of Eorzea have to find a way to stop it, but keep it simple and get rid of all these made up science bullshit terms

[@MemoryMori]

@@MichaelSwart-xv3il Well, you have plenty of those out there. Thats why FFXIV: A Realm Reborn is unique in this. Not everybodys cup of tea. But I like it this way... Instead of BS "its magic" explanation, it has solid magic/ science world building in every aspect.

[@MadDogVelare]

It actually was the USP for me back when SWTOR got released. 8 different story lines in which some classes had amazingly told storys... and it was at the early days of swtor, before they made it much easier. So you still had to group up for H2 quests and even some bosses in class quests where brutaly hard.

[@AspieMemoires]

There’s a lot of MMO’s that were great when they remained somewhat difficult, rather than hand-holdy like most have become. If you ever played Horizons that was a great game but difficult as all be.

[@xerneis743]

I am all for not-very-difficult story bosses, but I hated when they introduced the level-cap per planet, because it made your final story boss trivial, if it took place on the starting planet, and that sucked. That was the moment your XX hour journey built up to and it was over in 5 seconds... Aside of that, SWTOR managed to capitalize on the SW brand and storytelling absolutely perfectly. I don't think I'll ever enjoy any other MMO's story as much.

[@janrautenstrauch4729]

Having a storyline and all talking npcs really made Swtor unique... sadly they never really managed to tell it in an immersive, gripping way and it felt quite non-consequentual. It was an effort but it lacked the emotions and quality of a Shadowbringer or an Endwalker.

[@ABurntMuffin]

@@xerneis743 preach! best pvp too. the ability to knock people around / off stuff was severely lacking from every mmo's pvp I had played up until SWTOR.

[@Mediados]

If you deactivate your companion the game is still a good challenge, but I miss the old difficulty.

[@bknysz45]

That’s a great question, I love Ankama games, Dofus/ Wakfu and more recently Waven, the team has structured each games as a sequel in the narrative to the previous one, the world building is incredible and each quest has impact on how you play and there’s no « filler » content, the stories are well written and I love to create new characters to reimmerse myself in their stories

[@Kritigri]

I would strongly argue against ESO being part of the fifth example with the story being linear from start to finish. It plays far more like example three, with self-contained stories approachable in any order. There is *technically* a chronology but it really doesn't matter, and different DLCs do not lead on from one another.

[@Saintgreene]

I also wanted to comment this. Although, I would add that the story is so not linear that if you meet a character first in a later expansion then later meet them 'earlier' in the story then they will remember you from the 'future.' ESO is really a jumble of stories that rarely overreach the borders of their zones. Basically, the expansions (or chapters for the proper term) are only happening in their own zones. *minor spoilers start* Dragons return in the Elsweyr chapter but for some magical reason they respect the political borders and don't even scorch Valenwood a bit, the only evidence of this even existing is the repeating "Dragons in your own homeland." dialogue that you can hear in each capital city which is the funniest from Dominion part, as their capital is neighbouring Northern Elsweyr. Or Greymoor's unstopable supernatural army that never struck anywhere else just Western Skyrim. But the main evidence is that every zone is stuck in time, the base game areas are still experiencing the Planemeld, and whatever world-shaking event happens in the Chapters they don't effect them for some reason. *minor spoilers end*

[@NeoSaturos123]

Well Josh's exact word choice was "core narrative", that is the part he sees as following pattern #5. I suppose that would be the Molag Bal story? I haven't played the expansions.. I'd argue ESO, GW2 and WoW is pattern #4., with pattern #5 being rather rare.

[@LNaliazMcI1708]

I came here to say that. Thanks!

[@boobah5643]

@@NeoSaturos123 It's worth mentioning that _WoW_ began as pattern 3 (although only the _Burning Crusade_ zones remain of this to any degree outside _Classic)_ but later moved towards pattern 4, with the on-boarding to some degree at the zone level, and some degree at the xpac level.

[@alex_ho]

Same, I tried ESO for the first time and it was during the Greymoor expansion, so naturally when I created my first character they immediately dropped me in Western Skyrim, along with characters the game somehow expects me to know that I don't Reached max lvl there and Ive never been to any other zone, feels very disorientating

[@bimbendorf5166]

I play Lord of the Rings Online, and following a specific ark of the main story questline was so immersive and engaging that I consider it one of the best gaming expiriences of my life. It was like reading a very good book, but actually actively participating in it's events

[@PaladinfffLeeroy]

See, that's the type of experiences why I want to play game! You being part of the events.

[@Dahk]

Is this game still online? And about how many hours would you say it took you to get to that point in the story

[@bimbendorf5166]

@@Dahk Yeah, the game is still online. I would say, if you just follow the main story it can take around 30-40 hours. Not to say that it only gets good then, I just really enjoyed that particular story

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

@@bimbendorf5166 Idk that I would put it at 40 hours, you get level-gated out of certain sections! I'd honestly put it closer to double that. The story ends at level 105, it took us (doing side things and only playing Sunday nights, granted) 2 years or more to get there. That being said, it's a very chill game and enjoyable despite being a little outdated in the UI! I don't love story games enough to play it solo, but it's been a really fun way to keep in contact with friends. Edit: Just realized I completely misread and thought you said you could finish the main story in 30-40 hours, not that a specific section was there! Ignore me, I knew it sounded unrealistic for a reason XD

[@ivankovachev8835]

I don't need a story in an MMO, but it's a good bonus and I like a main story that isn't about saving the world, but a story about the people of the world, their strives, interests and conflicts, along with multiple secondary stories/questlines for each zone. Otherwise, the quests just need to be fun. Have a sequence of good combinations of interesting enemies to fight, or platforming, puzzles or racing to somewhere, or escorting even, everything can be made fun with good execution and good enough challenge.

[@ckwi2245]

Another one in the FFXIV #5 camp. Though I will say I very much appreciate how they've been gradually shifting their major patches to be more into the branching arcs as opposed to keeping them very much focused on just the MSQ like was the case in ARR and HW. The patch MSQ generally gets a good bit shorter as expansions go on, but the side story chains got more robust and longer. So at this point while everyone does the MSQ, a lot of other major mass appeal stories open up as well. Generally speaking the Raid Series, the Alliance Raid Series, a Trial Series, the Relic Line, 3 Tribal Line, all pop up and have varying levels of interaction with the main story and other side stories. I especially like how the Tribal Lines have been unlocked by experiencing the core stories of their given zones in recent years, while it makes them harder to unlock quickly, it does make them feel more integral to their zone, rather than just a quest hub. Now I can say, I don't mind having the Main Story be less of a focus than FFXIV, but when that center mast tentpole is missing altogether I have a hard time getting into it, and I generally find the gameplay's flaws stand out way more. GW2 falls into this space for me, since the central story exists, but isn't very constricting, it's poor management has made it vey disorienting to playthrough w/o a guide, and then it's more gameplay centered flaws reveal itself and false potholes get stepped into because you can very easily skip over important points. The farther you get away from a cohesive experience, the stronger external resources become in comparison to the game, and when I feel like the Wiki is more important than the game, my investment diminishes or fails to hold. I find this to end up being very commonly true for games as they lean more heavily into the sandbox side of the line.

[@MemoryMori]

I agree on this Brother...

[@lilaredden]

I always liked how City Of Heroes handled it. There are stories which your character can take part in or not and there are through-lines that can connect those stories but its more used as a backdrop to write your own character's narrative. And then they added the mission builder feature where you could create your own stories which was awesome.

[@jorgenjorgensen2739]

I miss City of Heroes

[@lilaredden]

@@jorgenjorgensen2739 most of us do. And Homecoming has way too much baggage for me to feel comfortable playing in their servers

[@leifroarmoldskred6370]

@@jorgenjorgensen2739 I miss the game, and I really miss the (for me, EU) forums. One of the best online communities I've ever seen.

[@boobah5643]

@@jorgenjorgensen2739 _City of Heroes: Homecoming_ is a thing that exists, and has for years.

[@BDawg-d8k]

I know right?! Best super hero game EVER!!! Is CoH Homecoming (free server) still going? I played it about 9 months ago.. I think its still going. If you miss it, check it out! Most innovating skill upgrade system that i haven't seen anywhere else.

[@Mediados]

This is my problem with every Survival MMO. They just leave you alone to explore, but without a story or point to your existence in this world it just feels empty.

[@AngRyGohan]

Josh said this too in the video though. There are lots of sandbox indie games ( like Rimworld or Shadows of doubt ) where im reading the reviews and there would be a person who shares their unique experience and they are all amazing... to read, because you might not never get that kind of circumstances yourself.

[@BanditLeader]

Meanwhile minecraft is the most sold game

[@Mediados]

@@BanditLeader And I havn't spent even 3 hours in Singleplayer for this reason.

[@BanditLeader]

@@Mediados sounds like a skill issue to me

[@Dyanosis]

The problem with your statement is that you'd be upset if every game started out with a 10 minute cutscene to try to tell you a story and get you interested in the world. Most people download a game to... play it. Isn't that weird? So interrupting that experience, even if it's just the first 10 minutes, isn't good. That's the problem with games. If they need a story, then you're not really playing a game.

[@ToadwithaMonocle]

I really love the way runescape stories and quests feel, that world has so much life without the need for a main story and it's fantastic. Have you ever thought about doing a video on combat in MMOs? Action combat vs tab target vs hybrid, with good and bad examples of each. I love action combat but it's so difficult to find good MMOs that also have good action combat. I used to play tab target MMOs but I just can't get invested in them anymore. (if you already have a video on this topic I may have missed it)

[@CHEFPKR]

Personally, I really enjoy the MMO that provides micro stories based on each area versus a huge over arcing one. Like doing the Coldain Ring War in EQ 1 versus "I'm the hero" style quite a few follow now.

[@Dangerous1939]

Yeah i agree, that's why i prefer WoW Classic's style much more over the modern approach. Classic has their own little stories and conflicts in different areas instead of this huge connected narrative that you are forced to participate in

[@ravingodd]

Personally, I prefer #4. Not so much as that I care about the story so much, but as I need a catalyst to get me moving in the right direction. Fetch quests. Drop quests. Kill X of Y quests. Sure, it is in support of the story, but it also gets me moving from the "START" to the "END". And the end is where I prefer to be at. But this comes from years of playing wow-style, end-game raid MMOs.

[@ayuvir]

The most fun I've had with MMOs was with WoW on release up to WotLK. Coming off being a very big fan of WC3 and its custom maps, WoW was just an amazing adventure. Everything was new, people had no idea what they were doing, your character could change completely from one patch to another. It was just a real thrill to log in, get a few levels in, maybe run a dungeon, check out the dude with an ultra rare item, go buy these materials that you need for a skill and you wished you didn't have to. The world felt grounded, you were a grunt climbing the ladder, doing menial tasks to prove yourself well into late game. Every settlement had a story with quests telling pieces of a larger tale, some of which would intersect. Since information wasn't readily available, people would spread "mew under the truck" style rumors. It was like an added layer to the game, it's so hard to describe. I still remember two dudes from my server hanging in front of Ironforge's bank with the newly updated Tier 2 set. It used to have a generic model but they had given every piece a unique model, this stuff was beyond rare and people would stop to look at the models. When BC came along, they started introducing more story into the game. You were still doing menial tasks but at least people would acknowledge you. You were often a "mighty champion" or "someone tough considering you survived so far". The areas story had more cohesion between them and there was clearly an objective to you being in Outlands yet you were still a tiny cog in the wheel. You weren't necessarily out to get Illidan this would only come in the very late game. People were now better informed but there was still much room for individual creativity, streamlining had started but people were still finding their own flavor. I remember being a half melee, half caster Shaman well into two months after the release before someone told me that there was now a "meta" way of playing Shaman. Mods were now prevalent and people were gunning for specific items, but high level quests with good loot or good reputation rewards meant that all Heroic dungeons saw actual play. The "busywork" of the game was centered around what you wanted to get, do you want the shiny nether drake? go farm dailies, do you want the awesome caster mace? go farm reputation in the dungeon, do you want the nether ray mount and the shortcut item for the raid? go do the faction questline. By the time WotLK hit streamlining was in full effect. Builds were now very clearly meant to be played a specific way, there were now cinematics to showcase major events, you have a specific story and a specific goal, everyone knows you as a mighty champion, Heroic dungeons, while still hard, were now much simpler with less need of CC making them a non issue after you got a bit of gear in, people would much more often run multiple dungeons in a row, reputation would always reward you with a necessary item be it entry level purple gear or a slot enchantment. The magic hadn't faded but people were already starting to know things much quicker, strategies took a day or two but you'd know about them fairly quickly. Then came Cata. I don't blame Totalbiscuit for this but by the time the expansion hit I knew 50% of the entire content. I knew how my class would play, the dungeons, the progression, my profession's new items, where I'd need to go for gear, what reps to level up first, it's pretty much where the magic faded and truly I never played Wow for more than 2 months at a time since. Then there's FF14 and while a lot consider it an absolute darling in every sense, I feel like it's the best comfort food mmo. The loop is the same since ARR you level to max, farm tomestones, get gear, do singleboss raid, do weekly raid and maybe, if you're in a guild, do actual raiding. there are relevant side activities but apart from grinding the ultimate weapon it's all just cosmetic. I'd describe FF14 as being an excellent singleplayer mmo-like with an incredible story that sometimes requires you to engage with other people. And we all know that we hate other people.

[@DemonLordRaiden]

The only thing I wanna disagree with is that WotLK wasn't as streamlined as you say it was. It was definitely more cinematic and more of an "epic adventure" type story, for sure. Heroics were generally less difficult. That said, builds were 100% not meant to be played a specific way quite yet, that's a Cata thing, MAYBE late WotLK if we're being generous. Mage Tanks, Boomkin Tanks, 100% Armor Pen Tank Warriors, you still had goofy builds in WotLK. Cata's what killed that, since it heavily simplified talents.

[@ayuvir]

@@DemonLordRaiden When I say that streamlining is in full effect I mean that the design team were slowly implementing changes that would eventually lead to the full on streamlining seen in Cata.

[@DemonLordRaiden]

@@ayuvir See, now I can agree with that. The seeds of what would become the modern WoW design were there, but they weren't in full-bloom until Cata onwards.

[@ayuvir]

@@DemonLordRaiden I'mma be real, the original heroic mode for raids seen in Ulduar was such a cool feature. It's sad to know they decided to scrap that in favor of just a difficulty setting.

[@DemonLordRaiden]

@@ayuvir I get why they did it, it made sense with the switch to a dungeon/raid que system, but I also totally get what you're saying with that. Old heroics were really cool, and now it's just...a bit more health.

[@dlld77]

WoW was my first mmo, one of my biggest gripes with GW2 on launch was the 'chosen one storyline' and how that just sucked for mmo's and a more you are just a random relative nobody ala vanilla wow was the only way for story in mmo's. Then i played ff14 after shadowbringers came out, and realized GW2 just did an awful job at it, and I can't think of a better way to get me to care about a games world, lore and characters. The way everything is unlocked naturally by progressing through a story was so amazingly done, even if you are 10 years late to the party, it didn't feel like it at all, unlike starting wow today.

[@AngRyGohan]

Problem being though: you did not play FFXIV at launch ( lets say on ARR , the reboot ). ARR and Stormblood were not good stories and well blitzing through a story not let it sleep for long can make you gloss over the worst points of it. Its even true for Endwalker, 86-87 was amazing, 85 was good and the rest where once again we deus ex machina back everyone? Not so much and now FFXIV will have trouble establishing a new story since the all the previous build up story is going to be not invested into anymore. This is why ill probably not bother with the new expansion. I would personally rather have Emet and Hyth as my adventure buddies than most of the Scions.

[@ninjaguy8519]

I love seeing the that patreon list has gotten SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than when you first started showing it in videos

[@robintst]

We had a very passive narrative in City of Heroes. There was a detailed backstory to the setting and some environmental stuff to find related to it but, otherwise, the first half of the game's life was so glacial and pedestrian in it's main plot development that the emphasis naturally fell on the players to create their own stories. And it was a perfect platform for it with how good the character creation was, making up your own superhero and being given a biography box to write something about them that other players actually cared to read was fun. Later on in the game's life was when the devs finally started moving the timeline forward and making more changes to the game world to reflect it, the writing and delivery of said stories had drastically improved by then.

[@gedece]

And don't forget how the narrative changed when they added city of villains. The quests were very similar, but the tone of the quests differed, and that was a wonderful experience.

[@leifroarmoldskred6370]

It's funny how something as simple as adding a biography box can change the way players approach their character.

[@Firevine]

I've been a comic book fan since the early 90's, so I really wanted to enjoy City of Heroes, but passive, glacial, and pedestrian are great descriptors for the game. I kept hearing that it got so much better at higher levels, but it was such a chore to get there I think I tapped out somewhere in the 20's. Also I was too poor to afford two games, so EverQuest won out.

[@powerfulech0356]

Definitely the biggest fan of #5, having a deep engaging story with lots of interesting npcs and locations gets me more invested

[@morgenstern2603]

Seeing that the three MMOs I played passionately are WoW, SWTOR and FF14, I guess I'm a story-person. I find questing very relaxing, and seeing the world through an epic story makes me care for it. I'm not killing a boss, I'm killing the boss to preserve what I love.

[@luckygaming6687]

yeah same here swtor eso is my go to but i mean mmos where u need to chase after the best gear and reach leaderboards and so on is not my cup of tea that can be exhausting

[@FlorenceFox]

I'm not sure any game has ever hit me with the same emotional weight as the climax of Endwalker, because the game took YEARS to make me love this world and the people in it, and then tasked me with desperately trying to save them.

[@xarbinchaoticneutral1785]

cringe.

[@sweetlittlelies7317]

cringe.

[@xarbinchaoticneutral1785]

@@FlorenceFox touch grass

[@robozeddBehindAPlayButton]

It's always a good vibe when Josh Strife Hayes uploads!

[@theseatoad]

the visualizations of MMO story structure ... it is so clear now how most games follow these patterns.

[@ARViuff]

One issue I have with the vast majority of MMO stories is how single player focused they are. rarely, if ever have I played an MMORPG story that took the MMO part into consideration. you are the one and only chosen one who can save the world, except so is everyone else in my guild

[@panajotov]

That irks me so much. I don't want to be the champion, Maw Walker (let's be honest - no one wanted that one lol), savior. Maybe I just want to be a silent observer, civilian.

[@anteprs7908]

the story is there for casual/solo players(who are mayority of modern day mmo players) not ever part of a mmorpg need to be focused on the mmo .

[@ARViuff]

@@anteprs7908 Valid, I am not suggesting developers force social interaction, I myself play MMOs solo, but I would appreciate if the story recognized the other players in the world instead of soloing you out as someone super ultra special. They have a unique opportunity and barely ANYONE is utilizing it.

[@anteprs7908]

@@ARViuff they need ot find a way to do both a solo path or chose a group path

[@kylesmith987]

Too me it just depends on how you execute it. The obvious comparison everyone makes is WoW vs FF14. FF14 succeeded pretty damn well with the whole you are the chosen one story telling method where WoW failed at it. To me a lot of this is due to how it was all setup and executed. WoW never started off with you being the chosen one, you were just a simple adventurer in a world that already had fleshed out lore and characters and you were just trying to make a name for your self in this world but over time blizzard decided that you needed to be the champion and the savior of mankind and it didn't work out because you were basically retconning and already established story from the Warcraft games. FF14 works because the entire story is setup from the very beginning for multiple expansion that you are the warrior light. All of the characters and story is written with that idea in mind. In the end I think any of the story methods can work if the Devs/companies put time, effort, and passion into making a good story instead of just focusing on maximizing their bottom line at the cost of everything else.

[@BreakerBeat]

In my opinion, an MMO does not need a "main" story like a single player game does, but rather a living world. I think a good example is WoW Classic / vanilla. Most zones have their own little stories in quests that isn't really about the overall "main" story of WoW. The Duskwood zone quest line is one of my favourite storylines in games, but has nothing to do with the WoW "main" story. These kind of stories, the small ones you find around the world, be it a village problem or a war between two races across a zone - they are the stories that matter in my opinion. Having a main story is then an additional "feature" a game can have. For some games, it can help you get into the world and understand it, here it is a great addition. For example WotLK, since The Lich King is such a huge part of the world in the Warcraft franchise, giving us a main story build around him allows us to not just play a story, but explore the wider lore of the world. So it serves to bring us closer to the world we play in. It also gives the developers a way to expand the lore and world, especially if the main story will introduce new zones like it does in most MMORPG's. I can enjoy both a full on main story MMO as well as an MMO with no story, but this middle ground with local stories in zones and maybe a "main" story to expand the world is my favourite. It's kind of the best of both in my opinion.

[@Gurupimp10]

Wow is very Story based.. How do you even make a Raid with Zero Lore, would never work. And player driven MMOs will never work.

[@ClickToPreview]

Yep, great answer.👊

[@denirebic5769]

​@@Gurupimp10Wow is heavily Lore based, dont confuse it with Story.

[@Gurupimp10]

@@denirebic5769 eeh since when is lore and story not the same thing? I guess I have to rephrase it for you.. Wow is very story based, most quests tell a story in every zone etc..

[@denirebic5769]

@@Gurupimp10 since dawn of time, google it, dont have time explaining you right now.

[@mercurydrive9720]

I think the payoffs of the impactful moments in ff14's long story are some of the most powerful to me, but conversely if I take a break from the game for a while and then come back to new content, I find it really hard to get myself back into a continued story that I had spent months not thinking about when it's so reliant on you already being emotionally invested. Overall I think my favourite kind is type 2 though, the freedom to seek out pockets of local story whenever you feel like it is really enjoyable to me.

[@lazyfrogeyes5949]

Ff14 main story is honestly just plain boring. Most of the lead characters are just terribly written. Not to mention its quest system is just awful. Endwalker was an absolute slog to get through just like every other expansion. Now don't get me wrong some of the side quests are very well written such as the Namazu or Moogle quests but you have to suffer through 80+ hours of boring quests to unlock them. A game should be fun from the get go not that I have to wait for the game to get good.

[@sweetnerevar3509]

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on stories on other RPGs vs MMORPGs, I never really understood why the shorter stories like in ESO never had more options and outcomes considering how self contained they are.

[@AngRyGohan]

Honestly runescape ( either version ) feels more like an RPG instead of an MMO and they work so differently from pretty much any MMO in pretty much every way that i would love to see Josh actually make a video thats like Runescape vs MMORPGs. It seems insane how Runescape is pretty much the only known MMO that doesnt shy away from making endgame solo bosses all the time or how many quests feel like actual adventures instead of simple quests.

[@xyton4201]

Gameplay first, story second is how I feel when it come to MMORPGs but both are integral. I love classic WoW gameplay over every other mmorpg I've played but what makes it so sacred and nostalgic for me is the Warcraft 3 story and being in that world made the whole experience magical. If it only has good story then I might as well be reading a book or watching a movie but if the only quality is gameplay then it will surely be a forgettable experience.

[@dokilar1]

I'm probably in the minority and honestly my perspective has changed over the years but the story is the most important thing to me when playing any game these days. 20 years ago the gameplay was really what was most important. I paid attention to thr story but my focus was on my character and the gameplay. That all changer probably around the time of SWTOR. I grew up playing blizzard rts games and always paid attention to the story but it wasn't what I would consider very robust or deep. The rts storylines of warcraft and starcraft were intriguing enough to keep me playing and looking forward to future games. I can honestly say I started playing WoW simply because I was under the impression it would pick up where the Founding of Durotar bonus campaign left off. I can vividly remember being disappointed in WoW and it wasn't until meeting my future guild mates while grinding HWL in pvp that kept me playing. Sorry to go off on a tangent there. SWTOR changed the way I played games and honestly I know it gets a lot of shit for its launch and lack of end game content but I still to this day play occasionally play through the original 1-50 class story lines. Even the weakest classes like the Trooper and Consular provided some of the best story I've ever played. Sadly I felt the story started to taper down hill when they focused more on a single character story instead of a class story but I realize that it would be nearly impossible to keep developing content and story for 8 different classes.

[@mayasuxs]

I also play games for story, and it's genuinely been difficult getting through the swtor expansions on my jedi knight just because I don't really...feel like one (and I'm sure it's worse if you're not a force user class.) I'm playing a Sith Inquisitor character on the side and actually feeling like one, so I'm more invested. The expansions aren't *bad* or anything, it's just kinda...jarring to go through a story tailor-made for your class, then go to a story where your character is still the focus, but their background and everything you did in the story prior is essentially pointless, minus some characters going "oh I know you from the base game!"

[@Mediados]

@@mayasuxsThe problem is that the thing that made SWTOR better than other games in the first place bites it in the ass afterwards. If you kept your original idea and gave every class its own story, that is a SHITLOAD of work. They had to streamline it for the expansion to be viable. EA could afford it of course, they just hate good things.

[@dokilar1]

@@mayasuxs oh I completely agree with your sentiment. Rise of the Hutt Cartel was a decent expansion and even the Revan Expansion wasn't bad but the focus to a more central storyline shared by everyone was the starting point of when the story started to go downhill. But like I said the work required to maintain compelling story lines for 8 seperate classes would be near impossible without an endless supply of cash and unfortunately gaming companies aren't going to allocate money for that. It's a shame because I think if the 8 class stories were continued through each expansion, maybe even the addition of extra classes, the game would have grown exponentially.

[@Gloriankithsanus]

I know these were just starting questions for your intro, but what I did enjoy in games in the past was, when I am allowed to make myself important, but start as a nobody. Or almost a nobody. And the world interacts with my rise to power. Or importance. Or whatever it is I am doing. When I am becoming a god-trader I want NPCs to organically start telling me I am a threat to their business, or how I am saving them cuz I am importing foreign medicine or whatever. I love it when the world interacts with and reacts to me. Mount & Blade used to be a game I loved playing, because it at least gave me the feeling, the world was reacting to what I was doing. In MMOs I mostly seek an RPG. A roleplaying game. I want a good story experience, dramatic boss fights and characters to care about. That's why I am stuck with FF14 for 3000 hours now.

[@optimismx1048]

I'd say it matters quite a bit. How it's implemented is as you say the important part. I don't really have a preference but I do mostly play FF14 and Guild Wars 2 both complement each other but in different ways that appeal to what I'm in the mood for. I'm not necessarily playing Guild Wars 2 for raiding or story but just world exploration and 100% areas at a casual pace. While 14 I'm more into story progression, character progression and raiding and etc... I think it would be very hard for a mmo to have absolutely everything a player wants to do so you just have to pick and choose what your willing to let go. Having no story just isn't an option to me because I'm not very good in creating my own fun, if I could create my own fun I wouldn't be playing an mmo or games for that matter most likely lol. Having a main story with side activities that branch off from it for people to do and it adds extra depth to the main story as a bonus is ideal to me. I also enjoy leveling up my skills in runescape and just vibing with the world. Done a few quest and they are interesting to do.

[@AngRyGohan]

This is the good answer honestly: it just depends on execution. I mean i look at a game like skyrim and meet with practically no enemy variety, bad story, gameplay mechanics that even 100s of mods cant really fix, but that doesnt mean what Skyrim tried to do cant be done good. This is why i personally prefer how From does their story: they dont ( not real character narrative that is ), because i would rather have practically no real narrative than gamble on the chance whether the story/characters that you are stuck with are good and that thought comes from experience: because they cant be trusted at all, this is why im more gameplay oriented because there seems to be a very real lack of good stories i ever enjoyed which goes double for MMOs. For FFXIV EW for example i adored 86-87 quests, was fine with 85, but the rest? Nope, dont give me this stuff like ever, esp the 88 or 84 ones.

[@ilerien]

20 minute video expect 60 hour react in 3 years :) love your work

[@xoawolf]

I think I lean towards 3 the most. But I do enjoy deviations. Longer more involved stories are great, but so are more open and free worlds.

[@michaelfinger6303]

I really love your Paint skills, one of the main reasons im coming back to consume your content.

[@ellentheeducator]

Huge preference for either 3 or 4 (mostly 3) cause I like endings - I like complete character arcs and themes and such

[@IstvanThree]

Old enough to have played WC3 and even WC2 as a kid it was a story dream come true to get into WoW and it´s first expansions - had inner tears of joy running down my cheeks! It´s sad how they dropped the ball with the years. Yes, yes, a story a totally necessary, never understood the people who just wanted max lvl and collect gear in the same loop again and again.

[@TheBaconSenpai]

I just want to say - Great Video 👍 After playing 15 years of World of Warcraft and being VERY invested in the story (WITHOUT playing any of the Warcraft games but watching youtube creators that where covering the story ) and quitting during Shadowlands during the first Raid, I'm 100% on board that a lot of players probably left because of Cataclysm = not original Warcraft Story I just want to point out that people like me exist who really liked the story the MMO told who looked up the origin of the Warcraft Universe and how thing connected. Now since 3-4 years Ago - starting with Covid, maybe a month before the huge "WoW-Exodus" started - I'm now playing Final Fantasy 14 and while the base game (ARR) was long and sometimes maybe even a bit boring it was enganging enough for me to stick with the game and don't skip any of the Dialoge (yeah, I'm a huge Lore nerd) I started at the end of the Shadowbringers expansion and have now experienced the end of the "10 year Saga" with Endwalker. I can see the concern of engaging new players to such an overarching narrative .. Personally I am even more invested than ever - having played all the optional fights and seeing little Dialoge deviations because I have completed XYZ always puts a smile on my face. I am very exited to be here at the startline for another Sage - because everything I have experienced will not be forgotten - the characters I have grown to love will not be irrelevant - the 10 years of story is merely just going to continue. In a way it is the same as what Cataclysm did with "creating a new narrative" - one just failed to expand the story in the background (Wow focus is the endgame raiding, no narrative required - and the other put the main focus on the Story and succeeded (14 story fights are easy in comparison but epic because of what you are going through) Long Story short: I am a fan of the big, overarching Story of Model 5 because it allows me to form a connection with a few pixels and shed tears of joy and sadness 👍 If you manage to stick with it, as you said, it has the greatest payoff and that is what I am looking for in a game nowadays - not just 10 days of fun - but 10 years of investment that are cherished by me (- the player and the developers)

[@nicobutial7515]

I've played EQ since I was a little kid and I couldn't tell you what the story was. But I have always appreciated that it's there if you look hard enough. EQ allows you to be blissfully unaware of what is happening around you while most areas are only nontraversible solely because you aren't strong enough. Obviously raid content requires quest progression but there is still no required main story to get through to get there. Your leveling guide is based on what zones you like to go to whether by aesthetic, tasks, or item drops. It isn't until higher level content that you start getting funneled into the same zones and missions over and over again because they are the most efficient. In my opinion, live EQ level 1-85 is the most fun you can have in an mmo and maintain being casual for these reasons. If you want to sweat, the raid content is there and the progression servers are there. But also p99 if you want to make that your full time job.

[@therollingthunder1]

This is an excellent and informative video! I am a huge fan of the 5th structure because I love games with excellently written narratives. It is what hooked me to FFXIV from the very beginning. And I think the 3rd structure is also something that would appeal to me--a D&D style narrative world that I can engage with.

[@culturia3555]

I love videos like this one, that analises story writing . What I really missed in this video, are good, defined, amount of examples of games that are written in each model.

[@BarokaiRein]

I'll be real with you and say that I basically never care about the story with MMOs nowadays because they're so off the rails that it's impossible to relate to anything going on. Like, look at classic wow, the story there is the adventure itself and its easy to understand, individual characters like Mankrik are relatable and there's no time travel, cosmic level threats or anything. There are few things I hate more in MMOs than forced MSQs when the story is what I would consider nonsensical.

[@chicchicboom]

I prefer #1 and #2 options the most after thinking hard about it. I like being able to travel around and decide for myself what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, where I'm going to settle down and start building my little corner, telling stories with other people in my vicinity and generally doing whatever I feel like doing on the day that I'm doing it. I am specifically remembering my experiences in Wurm/Wurm Online, EVE and City of Heroes as examples of these setups. I bounced off a lot of games (a LOT of games) with #3 and #4 setups, where they wanted to you to get into story as a focus, but it was by nature inherently short lived and by the time I was getting around to be interested in what was going on, it was over. I never would have thought I'd like an on-rails story experience like #5 until I landed on FFXIV on my third attempt at it, but once that hooked me, I was reeled in, filleted and served for dinner. It's like the outlier of my experiences in MMOs though, probably never to be equalled again.

[@nick15684]

The answer is always a resounding "yes" unless the MMO in question offers an extremely bespoke collection of other features to facilitate your own storytelling. Unfortunately, most MMOs seriously lack the gameplay features or immersive elements necessary for that to be possible. That's the main reason so many MMOs feel as wide as an ocean and as deep as a puddle. The scale of the game is supposed to be its main selling point, but that's not going to keep players engaged for long on its own; that novelty wears out very quickly.

[@Geekezf]

The story of the class make me come back to Swtor more than often. And it's the sole reason. So some MMO definitly need one.

[@DarthRevan260]

I like the way WoW did it in classic era, when every zone had it's own complete story arc. For me, that is rh the most immersive way of storytelling, because it makes the world more alive and not player-centered. On the contrary, I also very much enjoyed SWTOR class story campaigns (there are also zone storylines too)

[@TheMaxCloud]

the problemw ith the wow thing is that, when you start that if you change it you will create what wow became after some years, a shitload of story going on and nobody knowing what the fuck was happening and 80% of the playerbase (At least) being people who just like to look at pretty lights.

[@gvstlytv]

huh? @@TheMaxCloud

[@TheMaxCloud]

@@gvstlytv I meant if you made every zone its own story then nobody will understand what is happening at the story and most players will just be a group of people looking at pretty lights without meaning

[@liamreynolds9688]

Excellent analysis, as always

[@MollyPowerslide]

For me, I kind of need a story or clear reason to be invested any game. Without it, I feel like the illusion is broken and I realise that I'm not training my skills or going on quests, I'm just making a number go up, and it suddenly feels like there's very little reason to care about the game. It's similar to Fighting games in a way - people have argued that the story and lore in Fighting games is unnecessary and adds nothing to the game, but if you strip all of that away you and your opponent are just playing as boxes trying to hit each other with other boxes, and no-one really wants to play that.

[@BJGvideos]

I love stories in fighting games. They're always a particular brand of batshit and it's fantastic.

[@cassiohenrique6815]

What are you talking about? Yeah they do. A lot of people play fighting games for the game alone, where the story is just there as a random button, where you don't know who you're fighting next. I remember playing a Naruto and a Dragon Ball game back in the day where I had no idea what was going on, I just waited for the next fight. I spent hours get my ass handed to me in both games, because I suck, but I loved it. Hell, of them was in japanese. The menus, tutorials and voice line. But I still played through the whole thing. Then, once the story finished, I went to versus and kept playing with random bots. So I'd say yeah, people would play a fun fighting game, no story required, as long as its fun to play.

[@captainfach]

Ill say this, that as someone who mostly plays solo, i really appreciate a story campaign to keep me going as i dont really do dungeons or raids very often.

[@Z31Turbo]

I like the original WoW structure. All of the story and lore took place in a single player narrative game, warcraft 1-3. Then WoW came out and it basically had no story what so ever and it was great. You could go anywhere in the world without feeling like you are missing out, but it still has that lore and story to back it up.

[@ABurntMuffin]

basically no story? vanilla wow was full of story. twilight cultists trying to awaken an old god, the entire realm of the dark iron dwarves being taken over by a power they discovered in the depths, blackrock orcs making their way south into redridge, the alliances constant presence in south eastern barrens and south wester durotar, the entire north half eastern kingdoms being riddled by the undead, the horde undead city being there making it an extremely dangerous place for alliance, the lich kings minions and his invasions across the world pre naxx, Tirions whole redemption and return to the light, the game was chock FULL of story but only if you cared to finish quest lines, and that's just my alliance perspective. You also have the enroaching quillboars and the summoning of agamaggon, the (i can't remember their name) evil tauren clan and the centaurs that plagued the peaceful tauren and their surrounding lands, the reemergence of the qiraji in silithus, etc etc etc. Game had loads of story. A game with no story that still has a main quest I would consider something like New World. Holy hell nothing happened in the entirety of that main quest line. Go here, fight guys, go there, fight guys, get some rando special power people to join you, talk to the grass, story over. I couldn't tell you the name of a single NPC in that game and I had max every crafting and bis gear before they nerfed world tours. I played the shit out of it and retained nothing because the world was hollow and lacking meaning.

[@Paraguai123]

> Had no story what so ever > Had lore and story Pick one, friend.

[@ABurntMuffin]

@@Paraguai123 ayy yeah that made me giggle, I think he's talking about an over arching "main story"

[@Z31Turbo]

@@Paraguai123 Yes, story and lore came from WC1-3, not WoW. Each zone had a bit of story to it, and there might have been some lore if you looked hard enough, but overall, there wasn't much. Also basically doesn't mean completely.

[@ItsBoyRed]

@@Paraguai123 Why? There were clearly stated how each of these points made sense in the game and were valid. Its like visiting Disneyland without having to actually playing a role from a movie, but just simply knowing "this is where it goes on", just being "around" characters you know from stories. Minding your own business. Its what i miss the most from MMO's, im tired of playing this perfect save the world hero in each and every one. I remember as i kid i was hyped for WoW, because all i knew was that there were this huge world filled with interesting charaters i didnt know. I loved the idea of just being and Orc running around in the desert killing boars and making a few gold with my friend until we got strong enough to fight the other players who chose to play the enemy faction, this was all i knew at the time, and it was great. It were essentially a huge RP game where everyone simply just excisted and did what they felt like they wanted to do in a war-fantasy setting. None of this killing gods nonsens.

[@anonimowelwiatko9811]

I don't think MMO needs a story but it definitely needs a lore. World without meaning doesn't make for compelling setting to spend time in. My first MMO was Tibia. It didn't have a story but every single place had something you could get story from or think about one. NPCs gave some hints and told small stories, there were places with corpses in which you could think about wars taking places between two races, there were some dragons in cave and dead body with shield you could salvage or Giant Spider and person who died to it's bite. There little environmental settings made up for something great. I wasn't told all of this with arrow pointed over my head, I could either find out on my own or learn from NPCs if I asked right questions. Or learn from other players. When you cut down tall grass near Venore swamps, you could get to Witches and Amazons camps or even find a Black Knight on top of big tower, or find a Dragon Cliff, very dangerous place but great source of income and experience for top players in free area. This is what made MMO great. I had fun with Classic WoW too when I was treated as an adventurer but choose my own path. Although I enjoyed Legion, it was weird experience to be treated as chosen one to lead Assassin's Guild with Legion invasion ongoing, specially as I just created my character... Yeah, it's not great. I knew everything what happened prior this setting through Warcraft 3, some WoW wiki and stuff so I still had fun but I don't think setting for new player was appealing.

[@VioletShinobi]

A bad story doesn't make a game bad. But a great story can make a mediocre game great, and a great game incredible.

[@BJGvideos]

While I agree that a story can make a game much better, I feel like it can also make it much worse. Bionic Commando comes to mind.

[@NadavNevo883]

A bad story doesn't make a game bad, but it does make me indifferent, which means I won't be playing it for an extended period of time.

[@plushysheep]

Terrible take imo. If Firewatch for example had a bad story it would turn from treasure into absolute trash

[@NadavNevo883]

@@plushysheep well, we are talking about MMOs here. Obviously a narrative-based game needs a good story.

[@AngRyGohan]

It can though. What if you dont enjoy the main story thats being told in FFXIV or WoW? Sucks to be you and you are forced to do it anyway. I mean ffxiv has literally 100h+ main story content before you catch up and for example ARR probably put off a lot of people.

[@OGU44]

I like sandboxes, exploring, roleplaying and really like the player interaction focused games, but I'd say maybe n.2 on your list. Awesome breakdown btw, love your content!

[@custardstuff5178]

I want to be a hero, I don't want to be *the* hero. The chosen one narrative in an MMO just ruins it for me but the biggest ones keep doing it

[@WalkerRileyMC]

Well, one of the great bits in FFXIV is that while you are 'the' hero, you're also still just 'a' hero. You still have to call upon others who share your gift (the echo) to fight in battles, giving both a narrative reason to have parties and a narrative explanation that, while you're stupidly strong, you still aren't strong enough to just wade through everything without a scratch.

[@petriew2018]

@@WalkerRileyMC ffxiv gets away with it because there's no 'chosen one' crap. Nobody prophesied the coming of a 'warrior of light' to save the world from looming darkness, but after you save the world enough times people are just like "okay, yeah, you're kind of a big deal" a lot of games take it to ridiculous extremes at both ends, where you're the chosen one from level 1, but they still send you out on banal fetch quests, or you've saved the planet half a dozen times but you still never actually get to show up in the important cutscenes....

[@dosbilliam]

The funny thing about this is that the expansion for DDO that just came out actually finished a storyline threaded through quite a bit of the stuff released in the past few years related to the Codex of the Infinite Planes. 😁

[@sitnamkrad]

I'm definitely in the camp of "no". And in some cases I think it can even stand in the way. I think Final Fantasy XIV is a very good example (as much as I love the game). This game locks almost everything behind the main story. If you want to craft, you have to unlock the higher level zones to get materials, which means doing story. Some of the classes require to be in a certain zone, which means story. Even playing an instrument or colouring your outfit is locked behind the story. What makes it worse is that so many of these story driven games want to pretend that you are "the chosen one", and then expect you to ignore that there are thousands of other chosen ones. These games also do something I absolutely loathe, which is cutscene bonanza. A lot of quests just involve walking to different places and watching cutscene after cutscene. No other gameplay, no need to group up. And it's even worse when they force unskippable cutscenes in farmed content. I once timed a Main Scenario dungeon in FFXIV, and it took about 30 minutes to complete. 15 of which was cutscenes. And this is something people are incentivised to do because of how much EXP it gives. They also don't really allow for playing adhoc with friends, since it's likely they do not have access to the same quests. Personally I prefer the style of City of Heroes, Neocron and Starwars Galaxies (before the NGE), where you could just get a random quest from a computer/NPC and go out and do something. It may not be as epic, but to me it felt much more like you were part of a real living world.

[@orh4958]

my favorites are more freeform, but with smallish stories more focused on narrative and theme. akin to old school maplestory. the world has its' themes (for example a different town with its own style of npcs going on for each class), but not big overarching plot to guide you. you start playing with your friends, you all go get your class change going, meet up again and start questing together / beating up mobs quests are short (with the occassional multi-parter, but those were rare) and for the most part can be completed solo compare that to current maplestory which is a much more story driven; sure, you CAN just go beat things up, but a lot of current content is locked behind quest chains, and far too often the best way to level up is to go solo and go through the narrative based stories (which are very long quests that can take hours to complete). in some cases you can't even leave those partway to go join a friend without changing to another character thats not to say solo content in mmos is bad, but if too much of the mmo drives the player into a solo experience without even the ambience of other players, its not much of an mmo

[@ShizukiShirano]

Yes. Its important. In all ways: quests, narrative (also systems for players to create their own meaningful stories), sound, world, design and visuals, gameplay, foes, etc.

[@WifeWantsAWizard]

An excellent video. I wanted to add one thing... (16:35) One of the other negatives of the pure linear story is the fact that users looking to socialize with other players will find plenty of people to talk to at the start of the game in the "main hub" areas but will be all alone while progressing the main story at higher levels. That's one of the big reasons why Wildstar died: the devs saw linear location progression as a key part of the linear story progression--leaving high-level players abandoned or camped at RAID entrances. Being alone kills the "MM" part of the equation and this last story type is particularly vulnerable to that.

[@TwilightWolf032]

Yes! MMORPGs do need good stories to keep me invested. In fact, the reason I kept playing PSO2NG despite it being severely lackluster was because I wanted to see how the story would progress! And the reason why I really enjoyed my time with FFXIV as well. I just want a story where I'm a nobody like everyone else, slowly earning my place at the top, I'm tired of being the chosen one of these stories. They work great for single player RPGs, but for an MMO, where everyone is the chosen one, nobody truly is.

[@ArkThePieKing]

100%, it's extremely immersion breaking for me to be told I'm the chosen one and then go into a dungeon with 4 other chosen ones, or go into town completely populated with chosen ones.

[@blazin_sky]

No they don't.

[@TwilightWolf032]

@@blazin_sky Yes, they do. I'm talking about myself, they need good stories to keep >>ME

[@kashandi2]

Type 2 to 3. Exploring and making my own goals in a world that has active npcs with their goals to interact with. Medium, variable, stories that are different experiences between players.

[@anarchond]

It needs LORE, not necessarily a storyline quest

[@Bjoolz]

Does it? With good enough combat if it's PvP focused, I don't think it even needs that. Much harder for a PvE game, but it could be possible there even. There are enough players that don't care at all. I don't know how many hours I have in WoW and I couldn't tell you anything about the story.

[@sageharpuia]

@@Bjoolz sure there is people who don't care about the story, but there is plenty of examples of MMORPG focused on PVP with minimal to no story, and every single one of them ends dying. The most successful MMORPG are all story focused or open world with quest story lines. I think that's also because there are games that does the "I don't care about lore, I just want to fight" way better, like League of Legends.

[@denirebic5769]

Totally agree, rich story mmorpg is pointless since world is persistent and everyone goes through the same thing as you do. Basically you cant affect the world nor you can have consequnce for your choices or actions.

[@magical571]

@sageharpuia black desert says hi

[@sageharpuia]

@@magical571 you got one example while there are plenty of example of successful 10+ years old story driven MMORPG, I'm not saying MMOs without story can't exist, but MMOs with some kind of story are by far more succesfull

[@thefruch7588]

My favorite thing with video games in general is kind of creating my own stories that I can tell my friends later. It’s why I got so into kenshi for a time. So many stories formed just by doing stuff. When it comes to mmos I am like Josh and like a mix of all that stuff. I remember playing RuneScape when I was younger and getting lured into an empty area only to be killed and all my stuff taken at first I was mad then I was like…well that’s gonna stick with me for a while. But I also like the fact that ff14 has a great story and community that you can tap into and enjoy with together which can also give you a personal story as well

[@NN010]

Personally, I do generally need a story to get invested in if I’m going to enjoy a game, especially for something like an MMO. So #5 is the approach that I most strongly prefer. A big reason why I got so hooked on Final Fantasy XIV when pretty much every other MMO I tried lost me in a couple hours was because of it’s epic multi-year story & that gave me some of my favourite story & character moments in all of gaming as I made my to Endwalker. And what a finale Endwalker was too! I’m pretty sure that expansion made me a sobbing wreck half a dozen times over the 40 hours it took me to finish it! I’m definitely looking forward to seeing how Dawntrail kicks off the new storyline & whether CBUIII can succeed where Blizzard l failed with Cataclysm.

[@KineticCalvaria]

The only story I've cared about in an online MMO-type game is GW1. It was told in a way that I enjoyed. Having proper story missions where you could group up was a big part of this. You'd have to play the story to unlock different locations on the map. Also using cutscenes, small amounts of text and chatter throughout missions to tell the story rather than a complete info dump in a quest box or watching characters talk endlessly.

[@miricobladetail9670]

The completely open world style where the players create their own stories just has that "We have that home" feel to it.

[@HomerAndRoe]

Well, sometimes it's the only one that really makes sense. Like Minecraft for example, but of course that's not an MMO.

[@vast634]

Feels homely when you are an established play, but a new player might be put off by this with every part of the world already taken and ruled by long time players.

[@Vallun]

I liked the Guild Wars 1 story design where progressing through the main story unlocks all the zones, but you can at any point choose to side quest or return to previous zones for relevant objectives due to the early level cap. It wasn't a completely open world feeling during the process, but eventually becomes one.

[@RaytoRyu]

I'm a style 5, FF14 player through and through. I like to write my own stories, and the lore in FF14 give me a world already existing in which I can create my own little stories while RPing, all while engaging in its own grand storyline.

[@MerrStudio]

What is style 5

[@MerrStudio]

@@DawnJones1997 nope not yet, if that's explained in the video then that's fine, I thought this is some kind of a codename for roleplayers

[@restinginn9906]

I like to think of the wilderness in old school runescape as "create your own story" - I can't tell you the amount of close encounters I vividly remember and almost created a story in my own head about what happened, how I "tricked that evil doer and barely escaped with my life and valuable items" etc. Love to have that in games. OSRS is a best of both worlds since it has very well written quests you can choose to do as well as a world in which you can make your own story.

[@Karvan420]

Imo it doesn't need a story per se, but rather a world that is immersive and dynamicly tells the "story" of the world through world interaction, gameplay, monsters, findables, quests/npcs, etc. Imagine a new LOTRO MMO. But unlike before It has no told or followed story, it's just the entire universe in a sandbox and you do MMO stuff in the lore rich world. That alone would be enough for me.

[@janrautenstrauch4729]

And i would imagine it would take a day until there was a lingerie-wearing-gandalf-look-a-like camping in the starter-area griefing new players. Players have a way to destroy immersion if they're allowed to do "what they want".

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Some people will pay extra for that kind of action, Cotton. @@janrautenstrauch4729

[@corn.3892]

@@janrautenstrauch4729 Yeah, the game OP describes is a LOTR SWG. Oh wait, SWG is regarded as one of the best Sandbox MMOs ever made? And you couldn't grief other players, and only 50%of the game was combat? A Sandbox MMO is not automatically a bad griefing simulator.

[@janrautenstrauch4729]

@@corn.3892 If i comprehend correctly you mean by "SWG" strar wars galaxy? That niche-sandbox-mmo with a dedicated fanbase that died slowly after the game was overhauled? Sandboxes seem to do one thing very well: they die.

[@corn.3892]

@@janrautenstrauch4729 Bullshit, SWG had 300 000 subs and didn't even loose many subs when WoW was released. It died because of the greedy publisher, which happened to many Theme Park MMOs. So why don't we talk about how things are in the real world? Eve online is still quite popular after a decade, despite being very hardcore and having mediocre combat gameplay. Ultima online is very dated and still has a healthy population. Sandbox is objectively not worse than Theme park, it's the execution that matters.

[@fadedjem]

My two "MMOs" are Star Wars TOR and Guild Wars 1. I came to Guild Wars as a kid/early teen who loved RPGs and kept hearing friends talk about other MMOs, they seemed new and exciting in the mid/late 00s and Guild Wars was the one my parents bought for me, for which I will be forever grateful. TOR I came to more recently as a lifelong Bioware fan who had run out of their singleplayer offerings. These days I dip in and out of both, playing one or the other for a month or 3 before drifting off to other games. My primary draw to Guild Wars is the nostalgia and the world, to TOR is the narrative and wanting to someday finally get my 8 class stories finished. For me, I like the entire game to be wrapped up in a single master narrative that can keep re-centering me after I get distracted by MMO grindy mechanics or making my own fun exploring the world. MMOs should have a lot of spinning plates and a lot more content than merely the central narrative, but the rest should all exist to the side of that main thread. When I try to imagine an open-ended version of Guild Wars where I could start a character and get a taxi straight to the Crystal Desert I'm just perplexed, as I'm perplexed by anyone who gets their starship in TOR and jumps ahead to planets they haven't reached in the narrative yet. To me areas of the map are inextricably linked to where they appear in the narrative.

[@anonony9081]

A story is a bonus imo. My favorite MMO ever was FFXI and I don't have a single memory that comes from the story... All of my memories of the game are about people I met, locations I explored, the music, the gameplay and the adventure.

[@wiseguise5960]

That's how I feel/felt about FFXIV. I am a HUGE FF fanboy so of course an MMO sparked my interest. When I first started playing I did very little combat and quests because I simply wanted to explore the world! I focused more on crafting skills to give me a reason t explore new areas for new nodes.

[@jamespryor5967]

In other words, your story.

[@anthonystress6353]

One of the only games I played with son, that we didn't fight. Plus he was 5 at the time. I played on computer, he was on ps2.

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

I am definitely a fan of style 3. Style 1 can't grab me because I don't play games for mechanics/challenge and the last style can't because it's overwhelming and (imo) boring to do the same years-long path everyone else has taken. I like the freedom to choose which experience I'm in the mood to have and I like being able to hop around in different story sections. Even style 4 limits you because, generally, you can't skip huge sections because your power level will be too low. I should try a game in style 2 sometime though.... I feel like it would be the other, aside from 3, that I could get behind.

[@SteackDeLamasticot]

I don't care about endgame content in mmos, might be surprising but playing a roleplaying game in a persistent world with other players already fill me with joy, its truly a unique experience.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

Endgame content seems to be there to keep endgame players logged in to grind away at various and sundry McGuffins to make them more endgame, which requires being logged in to grind more...you don't necessarily get "good" stories to play as that endgame character.

[@ArDeeMee]

Yup, screw the endgame. Min-maxing every single item you can wear, having different sets for different dungeons. And every couple of months, everything has to start all over again, even though you JUST got the final item, and haven’t even fully statted it yet. It’s best to completely ignore endgame content. Folding Ideas has a wonderful video about WOW‘s current state.

[@sherb1750]

Not gonna lie, sometimes I just pull up one of these videos to hear you talk. Your narration is as enjoyable as the content of the video itself, and that to me is a hallmark of a great KZbinr.

[@ImYourS3npai]

Just my opinion, an MMORPG absolutely needs a story. It gives me a reason to play and lets me know I'm making some kind of progress and the world that I'm playing in. Warframe, Destiny, and even SWTOR had stories that kept my attention because of their respective stories. I'm big on stories in general. Even the offline RPG's I've been playing my whole life needed to have stories that kept me in the world. For me, a good story is paramount.

[@funnyaccountname5763]

The story kept me hooked on Warframe, even though the systems got me started. It's necessary for the *best* MMOs, and with all the time a MMO requires...you really can't settle for anything but the best.

[@AlexVriairu]

Yes, it does need a story. If it doesn't have a clearly marked, clearly labeled main story I can't easily find and follow it won't hold me as a player. It's why wow failed me when I tried it, I couldn't tell main story from side story and so.. never knew which quests to do.

[@Skenjin]

For the narrative structure of DDO you are half right. There are indeed a large number of quests that are only about themselves, but at this point many of the quests can be tied together narratively. Like early on there is a cleric who gives you a quest to exterminate people from an opposing church. You go in, and it turns out they are mostly just people down on their luck in life and have come in for support. This will likely leave a bad taste in the players mouth. But like 10 levels later you do another quest and it turns out he was a Rakshasa in disguise and suddenly it makes sense. Another bigger example is a couple quest chains that have you gathering pages of "The Codex of Infinite Planes" and that culminates in you defeating that bad guy in a raid, only for the book to have a mind of its own and try killing everyone to break free. After killing it pages sort of get scattered again, and the hunt to reclaim them yet again begins. This one eventually leads you to the Isle of Dread and a fight against Vecna. You win that fight but don't really defeat him, and he follows you back to your plane and hunts them down from the new group in charge of keeping them safe. At some point in the middle of all that it is also revealed that the "champions" that were introduced into the game a few years back were a result of power from these pages being given to and corrupting individuals.

[@anonimowelwiatko9811]

Sounds like a good story :o

[@Skenjin]

@@anonimowelwiatko9811 It actually is. And each quest is still "its own story" in the sense that while there may be more to do, that part of the adventure has been wrapped up

[@Anodic]

My biggest problem with FFXIV is that it seems to focus SO HARD on main story that the stuff I mainly play mmos for (FEELING like im actually running around in and experiencing an open world) ends up lacking severely. The illusion starts to fall apart when you realize that expansion zones end up being designed in a way where they add some arbitrary environmental block in order to prevent players from exploring the entire zone until the MSQ says you can. In Endwalker's first zone (the very colorful one) there is a cliff that you can't jump down because there's an invisible wall there, but in every other zone with a cliff like that, you can jump down there with ease. Makes it feel like exploration is a major afterthought when it comes to FFXIV design, since you know you won't even get the chance to get to take a look at the entire zone until the story says you can. Which... a lot of the time, is several chapters later when they start having you backtrack to zones you've already been to because a later zone sends you through a different entrance. I get that that particular are has spoilers in it, but that really doesn't stop them from using their phasing technology to make versions of the NPCs and the environment down there that exist in a state pre-thebigevent that happened there. And then when it comes to dungeons, they started doing this thing that I really hate where they all are becoming basically hallways that are filled with clusters of mob packs. Back in the earlier days, you used to be able to go into a room and decide not to pull a pack that you see off in the corner (and sometimes even having little puzzles to solve along the way). But now they make EVERY mob mandatory, even stopping you from progressing forward in the dungeon a lot because a door or like, a snowbank won't disappear until every single wolf is dead. And since they decided to make it so mobs in dungeons don't give EXP anymore, they feel like busywork to kill to me now. The amount of mobs you kill doesn't actually change how much EXP bosses give you.

[@gridleaf]

Please consider updating the MMOPINION playlist. It hasn't been updated in 2 years. I'm not sure how common it is to binge video playlists, but I enjoy it.

[@aidenchia3663]

I love the way GW2 incorporates the story into the gameplay. The story is there, but it is one of the things you can do once you hit lvl 80, but it isn't compulsary to do it to unlock the rest of the game. FFXIV had a pretty good story, but I resented having to do the entire story to unlock the game. If GW2 had a story as good as FFXIV, with the freedom to do it anytime you want, it would be such an incredible game.

[@VenomtheOne]

You need to go through the story to give a fuck about the world and characters. Without those, the "RP" element in "RPG" is meaningless

[@aidenchia3663]

@@VenomtheOne In GW2, you should go through the story, yes, but you can do so at your own pace, interspaced with map complete or raiding for example. I just don't want the story forced on me the way FFXIV does it, in which you have to complete it in order to do anything else.

[@nickeling2776]

What I like best are MMOs that have a lot of technical love for role-playing. Details that matter, a good, logical story. The structure isn't that important, but usually 1 doesn't correspond to that. 5 is difficult because you have to play through the story first in order to know at the end what the other role players are talking about, but once that's done, such games usually have a canon that you can use as a guide. But the most important thing is actually to have technical features that the role-playing game needs. Sitting on benches, chairs or the floor. A limited-range chat channel (/say) where the character is ideally animated when something is written there. A mode to walk. Good customer service that takes action against harassment. I can list more, but I think it's clear. Just all the stuff that supports immersion.

[@CureSapphire]

For the main story I am a FFXIV player so of course I gravitate toward 5, however I think there is an element to the 3rd category present in FFXIV as well. Major progression is dictated by the main story which is intended to be experienced in order, but there is loads of branching path side story content that can give unique experiences unrelated to that main story. Raids have their own stories, relic grinds have story (some of which are tied to other content like unique zones or progressions), jobs have stories, crafters have stories. Now, some of them are of higher or lower quality than others but I think the pacing provided by these smaller stories scattered through the progression of the main story offers a bit of a hybrid between the 5th and 3rd approaches in the video. Of course it is still pretty fundamentally tied to the main story progression, so 5 is definitely where FFXIV belongs. I just think it's important to make a point of how everything in ffxiv still has story regardless of how closely connected to the msq it is.

[@slob1105]

I remember my first run through ESO, the story lines in that game took me quiet a long time to do, and the fact once your done the first factions quests and the main line you get to start over on the next faction, just the old veteran ranks was a grind

[@YOUTY209]

I'm an OSRS player now, but I comped (and eventually trimmed) in RS3. I want to say that doing that has forever ruined any kind of narrative satisfaction or excitement for new stories and quests, because it changed new quests from being something new to explore into a chore that I had to do to wear my god damn cape again. Even with there being no comp cape in OSRS, that feeling has never gone away. Highly unfortunate.

[@Saiku]

The best way to handle story in MMOs is like Dark Souls. The lore is there, the world has a story and environmental storytelling and item descriptions and tidbits from quests, but it's not shoved down your throat. Sandbox MMOS>Themepark "story driven" mmos. The real story, should be your story, and the world is a backdrop for you to make that story in.

[@linkavantasia94]

#5 FFXIV Doing content, dungeons, raids while knowing why you are doing it, it really amplifies the experience. Also i feel like a linear Long-arc story has the more potential in having a good quality story. Others examples are so based off cliche, that is the reason why so many before 2012 thought that mmos story couldnt be profound or important.

[@your-username-here2308]

I on the other Hand hate linear Storys in MMOs. Runescape/WoW Classic Ara did it right for me. I love Questlines, even long once, but almost every bit of content getting forced into one story arc is silly. And to this day i cant get into FF14 Story because i just dont care about it. I have to like the backround/looks etc of a faction/NPC to care. I like the Game but hated to play the bad story. I had to quit because i just dont have fun playing the Main Story Content. ((And dont get why People like it.(( Heavensward was ok.The rest, meh)) But some of the Class Quests where Fun. Espacially the Paladin one.

[@lloydalvarez2819]

I'm a "the story is in the gameplay" kind of guy these days. Ultrakill is my favorite game that incorporates it's lore into the gameplay, for example. But MMO wise, I bought Guild Wars 2 and The Battle for Claw Island was a harrowing story quest

[@randomusernameCallin]

The story is what gives a franchise years if not decades of longevity. As for sand box, well sand box MMO are going against Minecraft and the like and they just can not win.

[@fatrat92]

EvE online has been around for 20 years and still kicking.

[@randomusernameCallin]

@@fatrat92 One game does not disprove the point as a whole.

[@petriew2018]

@@randomusernameCallin i'd also point out it's one extremely niche game being used as an example. Not to knock EVE, but yeah, it caters to a very, very specific interest that has very little competition. Comparing it's actual player base/profit margins to Minecraft is kind of laughable in any meaningful was from the start.

[@gamhuin]

Great video. I prefer #3 (DDO) and #5 (GW2). But I do need a good story, narrative and likable characters; it's one of the main reasons I play them. DDO missions are fun, but I do burn out on it more frequently because I don't feel as attached to the world and people.

[@thevane998]

I don't play mmos, I just like hearing Josh talk

[@SirBenthr]

What a wonderful way to visualize the topic. You, sir, are more than just a pretty vest. I would fall into the 2-3 range. Cheers!

[@Alphard72]

The story I make with exploring and messing around in the world is first and foremost. Those are the memories I'll treasure forever. I'd rather have no story than a poor one. And regardless I'd rather be able to interact with it on my own terms.

[@janrautenstrauch4729]

So... running around killing mobs for 300+ hours make a good story?

[@InvadeNormandy]

@@janrautenstrauch4729 Welcome to gross oversimplification and being unable to read about a single reason why people used to cherish the genre. Look up some stories about everquest sometime.

[@dravem]

I would say ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) to be something between 3-5, original game had a main storiline that follow for a epic point, but out of that main story (That is mostly optional actually.) every region was it's own story, sometimes split in 2-3 maps each with it's own small arc. Every expansion of it bring a new major story contained on the map of that region, but that don't need to be followed in a order, and you always start new characters on the map/story of the latest expansion you have (The weirdest point sorta, but that someway works.), but past tutorial you can always go anywere you want and do the story from there. Also the progression is horizontal, it going up to level 50, and after it having champion levels that rise really fast and are shared account wide, those give some bonus and gear wise cap at 160 (The points go over it, but the max level gear is all Level 50 CP 160, so once you got there and get you gear, you good to go forever any new expansions.) It is not my main MMORPG, but is easily one of my favourites, having interesting stories everywere, also with plenty of minor side story/quests from factions and others, many with new skills or something cool to get from.