Does Base Coat Need Hardener?

[@johnbecker5213]

i have watched alot of other paint and body channels on youtube, and i have to say you are the best ,more informative ,clear instructions so the viewer understands what you are teaching, and you are not a primadonna , you make it work and look great!!! thanks for all of your hard work!!!

[@MrTheHillfolk]

For sure ,and maybe it's just me but he sounds a little like AvE sometimes 😄

[@lcar9871]

Hey Jerry, I think we were recently discussing this - cool that you did a video on it!! I recently switched paint suppliers and the new one sells PPG products. I bought a gallon of their Omni MBC basecoat - no hardener needed (per the TDS it is optional). The basecoat will be protected by the hardened clear. Makes sense to me! With paint products being so expensive, it is nice not to be throwing any away. Also, no fretting over whether I am mixing enough or too much = waste. I mix a cup, paint the repair and poured the excess into a clean, new one pint can for next time. Thanks Jerry, you-re saving everybody $$$!!

[@LakesideAutobody]

You're welcome Icar - I believe we did talk about this recently. Thanks for your input my friend. You're right about the cost lately - crazy!

[@EarlGuyton425]

It was back in 1980 up until 1992 and some other cars up until 1999, I used PPG ditzler acrylic enamel on some early and late 1970s cadillacs I bought for cheap prices. It worked best with 35% reducer. I had no one to teach me how to paint a car, so I just did it. These paint jobs came out good on these cars and I did these jobs in the back yard of my dads house back then on my days off of work. There was no hardener at all because I didnt know it existed. Now I know even today you dont need a clear coat when using acrylic enamel. The last one I had painted was a 79 sedan deville cadillac and I drove it up until 1999 and had painted that one in 1992 and it still looked shiny and beautiful in 1999 and was an outside car. Go figure?? I also used no primer at all, and did not use any hardener and simply used a flat sander to sand down the existing paint. So based on that, that fender in the video above I could have done with acrylic enamel and it would be shiny for 7 years or more. Any comments? Im open to any comments of why this worked on what was around 8 cars. Heres something else. in 1999 I also painted this 66 mustang red and used acrylic enamel and no hardener and no gloss and it came out very shiny, but a guy names Ramon that was supposed to be a professional painted my employers 1969 oldsmobile 442 red with acrylic enamel and he had gone to school, but my job on the mustang without gloss came out better than his job where he used gloss. Now I know you have to use clear coat gloss on urethane because urethane is flat, but not on acrylic enamel.

[@LakesideAutobody]

I used that same paint in the 80's - Ditzler - with the hardener and same amount of reducer. That and Dupont Centari were great paints. Acrylic enamel doesn't need a hardener to dry or cure but works better with one. Urethane on the other hand absolutely needs activator to harden or dry. Single stage urethane will be shiny like acrylic enamel but needs hardener. Base coat urethane will be dull and needs clear for the shine. Hope that helps - ask more ?s if needed :)

[@EarlGuyton425]

@@LakesideAutobody Yes, that did help. Because I wasnt sure if you could get away with not using hardener in acrylic enamel. I didnt use hardener back then because i was ignorant of it being around and no one would inform me of anything back then. The reason I dont like urethane and gloss is because since the age of urethane all these cars with worn off gloss on the roofs and hoods. As a boy back in the 60s any old abused car might have paint with no shine, but even then I never saw paint that peeled off in the way these 90s on up car hoods do today

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@EarlGuyton425 I'm not totally sure but I think the pealing paint from GM may have been the beginning of water based paints. Urethane paints stick well and hold up better than any so don't be afraid to use them. Enamels did lay out nicer (my opinion) but urethanes are very durable and will not peel or flake off if used correctly :)

[@EarlGuyton425]

@@LakesideAutobody I wasnt really talking about peeling paint, but the gloss is gone and leaves the flat color under it is what I meant. Mainly on hoods. I see this all the time on japanese brand cars and even the mans mercedez at the station i visit many times for hours as he does state inspections. Its Nissans and Toyotas that are the worst that come in

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@EarlGuyton425 Got it... not sure what caused that myself. You'd think the OEM's would be using the best stuff out there :)

[@BruceLyeg]

Nice job Jerry. I love spraying simple reds. I dunno if you've ever sprayed Endura, but it's a two part epoxy paint. We were a pretty busy shop so we mixed it almost exactly 50/50 hardener/paint with a little thinner if required. It was the perfect ratio for fast drying and glossy finish. One day I sprayed the entire first coat on a class B camper van with no hardener. For some reason I'd mixed it 50/50, but I used no hardener and 50% thinner. I kept waiting for it to tack up, then I realized what I had done. I just sprayed my second coat with extra hardener and the third coat as normal. That was 35 years ago and the paint held up longer than the van did. I used to see it around the city for years

[@p-m2127]

Endura from Edmonton?

[@BruceLyeg]

@@p-m2127 yes, Endura from Edmonton (where I live)

[@NoName-bq9hm]

Best paint ever for winter beaters

[@moparnut6286]

I was always going on that the sheets say that all the protection is in the clear and not the base so I always used just reducer.... Great video Jerry have a great weekend!

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks for the input Moparnut - have a great weekend yourself :)

[@MidnightOilsRestoration]

I love the channel and content brother, I have to make a comment on this subject though. For those out there who are like most and learning to diy in makeshift environments etc ..be forewarned! It's true that there are many base coats that do not call for anything other than baseset to dull out; and no other hardener. That's great and all until the day arrives you have an issue and need to redo the panel! Now what you have on hand is nothing more than a nightmare of soft goo that you can't sand away! Give that some thought.. To make a long story short....I will never spray another coat that isn't activated. Thanks

[@LakesideAutobody]

You're welcome Ryan - thanks for your input.

[@pippendog1]

I always added a catalyst to the base to cross-link with the clear . Yes , it is an option however the adhesion of base to clear is superior for use in an abusive environment . ie: Harsh sun or off-road use . Great video !

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks for your input Ted - good points :)

[@evojigger]

In the UK all solvent basecoats are air dry, but the data sheet on a few brands like ppg or prospray does mention adding 5 to 10% 2k hardener will add to the adhesion properties of the basecoat, reduces chipping, but it is optional.

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks for the input EJ. I like to hear others' thoughts on the topic. Have a great weekend :)

[@45AMT]

I use Sherman Williams Pro Base from NAPA. It's a 1.1 reducer mix (Very thick in the can) and per the mixing instructions, no harder required.

[@LakesideAutobody]

Good to know RR - thanks 🙂

[@ej8_felipe]

I sell nason paint all day long at work and I asked the paint rep about this since it seems to work fine without the activation he told me that it's mainly for metallic colors for the metals to lay better but based of my experience works fine without it since base dries no matter what vs a single stage paint

[@LakesideAutobody]

👍

[@UndergroundPaintKing]

Got it looking good while working in that tight space, great job Jerry!

[@LakesideAutobody]

One day.... Thanks for checking it out UPK 😊

[@michaelprestigomo7332]

I used nason here last week without the hardener. Everything went well until I started wet sanding my clear coat. Everything dull up like it should but polishing didn’t help one bit. I used 800/1000/1500 all the way to 3000 prior to buffing. That being said my hood looks like I sanded it with 600 dry. My question is I’m spent and now I’m just going to shoot single stage over this mess. Time is my question about how long should I wait before shooting single stage. It’s been in the sun for a week. Thanks for any advice. By the way I pretty much learned a ton from you. I never had this much trouble with any of my other paint projects. You are an inspiration.

[@LakesideAutobody]

You did add the hardener to the clear though right. You have to have activator in the clear but not the base. You also have to use hardener or activator with single stage. What brand of clear did you use?

[@michaelprestigomo7332]

I actually worked out my own problems. I wasn’t using the right buffing pad therefore I wasn’t cutting anything out. After I realized my mistake it started to shine without burning through the clear. Bodywork sure can be scary when your new and it’s definitely not cheap. Thank you for your time,advice and so on. I really enjoy the restoration process especially when it turns out good. Have a great weekend.

[@pstreetgarage7304]

Great job as always Jerry. Panel looks perfect, this was a great experiment.

[@LakesideAutobody]

Glad you enjoyed it - thanks PSG :)

[@RustyGlovebox]

Always learn a lot from your videos and instruction. Thanks

[@LakesideAutobody]

You're welcome Rusty G - thanks for always watching and supporting :)

[@rbelang8331]

Can wait to see the follow-up. My concern would be if - for some reason - you need to sand a part of it after, let's say, a year... It would probably be a little mushy, hard to sand & clogging the paper. But usually, you wouldn't need to do so... That's what it did with the paint I was using anyway... As if it stayed a little soft, even after a year... But I am in no way a pro, so, might be my mistake...

[@eddylorenzo5033]

Wonder what sun reaction would do to paint

[@800B-MAN]

It is brand/formula specific whether you need hardener or not, but I’ve not used hardener in 20 years and I haven’t missed it 😅

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks for your comment - good to know. Have a good weekend :)

[@jakekology3016]

Jerrrry, you’re the man! Love the content bro💯🔥

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks Jake - always good to hear from you :)

[@jzr5560]

Hello great vid's Thank you! Was this a full on repair? Great example no hardener required! Guess obviously, door and hood panels would require blending? In a different scenario, would blending faded hood and roof panels be a little easier or require a little less skill/finesse? Thanks again!

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks and you're welcome. This was a repair for a neighbor - he just wanted the fender painted. Blending onto the hood and fender is not bad at all - I think this video would explain better than me writing - kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3irfJSAiJyFiZI Thanks for watching JZR

[@stephensaasen8589]

I was just going to ask if this also works for single stage paint. Looks like I got the answer below. So I'm guessing you could still possibly not use hardener even with metallic paints? Is it that much more difficult to spray metallic without it? I don't use a heavy metallic; just single stage with a little metal flake. I've painted old school vehicles from the 1970's.

[@LakesideAutobody]

You don't need hardener for acrylic enamel paints but it works much better with it. Urethane single stage and clears will never cure with out it - trust me. It's absolutely miserable if you forget to use hardener in clear and SS paints - you MUST remove the paint if you forgot it - it will not harden :(

[@stephensaasen8589]

@@LakesideAutobody thanks for the advice. Probably works better all around to use hardener - Makes the paint go further......

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@stephensaasen8589 I guess it would stretch it a bit if it was 4:1, you get 5 parts :)

[@gladememmott3001]

Is that the nason orange red?

[@LakesideAutobody]

It's Victory Red - a GM color for that year - I think it's a 91 or 90.

[@gladememmott3001]

Thanks 😊😊

[@kkp4297]

how is the overall paint job durability without hardener? I will be painting my car panel by panel over several days to weeks. Dunno if I should use hardener

[@LakesideAutobody]

Just fine - still perfect today. Hardener was used in the clear though. No hardener in the base - hardener in the clear. If the label says use hardener, it's probably best to do so :)

[@designsinorbit]

Hi mister Jerry...My first question for ya as I begin my journey (I'm starting body work on my Monte). The vinyl top had a couple bubbles so I ripped it all off. The roof is still in decent shape thankfully..left with some surface rust and hard glue. What would you do at this point? I'm guessing take 40 grit on a sander and go to town. Then 80 grit, then 120, then primer, etc. Whatchya think? :)

[@LakesideAutobody]

Exactly. I would use the bondo hog with 40 though first - like this video - kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpupZ4uGiL1skNE Sorry about the late reply - sometimes don't get the notification - let me know how your project goes :)

[@designsinorbit]

@@LakesideAutobody Thanks so much!

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@designsinorbit You're welcome :)

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@designsinorbit You're welcome 😀

[@rodmacisaac5963]

I noticed you sprayed the color top to bottom and the clear bottom to top. Is that the way you allways do it? Thanks for another great video Jerry!

[@LakesideAutobody]

Usually I always go from top to bottom - it doesn't really make a difference. Probably did it to get the best video shot or angle. It will turn out the same both ways. Have a great week Rod :)

[@moisesbenitez4412]

I have a question hopeful you can answer or some one with knowledge I paint my base coat with no hardener and let it rest for 1 or 2 days then I put my clear coat and I got some bumble not sure if I can just sand those away and wax it or do I need to sand down and put more clear coat. I have put 3 coats of clear coat ? Can you please help

[@LakesideAutobody]

Usually if you get bubbles in clear coat it's because it is being applied to quickly or to thick. Your first coat can be a bit dry, then the next one if it's your last can be nice and wet. Use reducer in your clear like 4 parts clear and activator to 1 or 2 parts urethane reducer. Sorry I missed your comment :)

[@borna430]

Hi Jerry, I have a 66 VW which I am working on it as a hobby. I want to paint the body but because I am using my garage I want to avoid 2k paint with isocyanide. Is there an option for me to do that?

[@LakesideAutobody]

Yes. Any paint that's not 2K like automotive grade lacquer, farm and implement oil based enamel, and/or acrylic enamel kits from paintforcars.com It will hold up pretty well but not as well as using a hardener :)

[@satamanschmidt3428]

You seem to be missing the point of what the activator does. It's just cheap insurance. The purpose of the activator in the basecoat is to enable it to be repaired. Let's say you're polishing the panel and you cut through the clear to the basecoat. If the basecoat was activated no problem. The basecoat is cross-linked and basically impervious to solvents at that point. You apply more base followed by clear and the world continues to turn. If you don't activate the basecoat as soon as you shoot more base onto the un-activated base it will fry up leaving you in a complete shitstorm. This is why all of the major paint lines: BASF, PPG, Axalta, Sherwin-Williams and Akzo Nobel require activation of their solvent basecoats for them to warrantee the job. Waterborne basecoats have no such issues as the solvents in the clear do not attack the waterborne basecoat.

[@LakesideAutobody]

Good points S. Man. There are strategies to repair the area, however. Just like the old days when you had to spray lacquer primer over relatively fresh enamel - start with a super light coat, let that dry, then a bit heavier, etc. Have a great weekend my friend and as always thanks for watching through the years and for your thoughtful input :)

[@designsinorbit]

What does "fry up" mean in the auto body language?

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@designsinorbit It is when you lay paint or primer on too thick or wet and it wrinkles the coatings or area that you are repairing. Basically its a bad chemical reaction or products not agreeing with each other :)

[@MrTheHillfolk]

@@LakesideAutobody yeah the 1st couple of light coats are to help "seal" it off from doing that. As a spray bomb amateur expert 🤣 I usually do that in general because I've been there with the paint lifting and looking like wrinkle finish on a toolbox 🤣

[@rickfitzgerald4426]

So how did you decide one way or the other? Doesn't prove if hardener in or not is a good idea..........

[@LakesideAutobody]

Basically it's always best to go with the TDS or instructions on the label but there is a debate out there on whether or not basecoat really needs an activator. Some basecoat brands say use activator some don't so, "What's the truth?" This video should give you the confidence to use hardener if you have the $ for it - $30-40 / 1/2 pint. or don't use hardener and save the money yet get the same results 💯

[@Dj39st]

How do you chose when to blend one panel with the neighboring panel? And when is it ok to paint a panel alone ?

[@LakesideAutobody]

If the damage is very close to the neighboring panel and there's no room to "fade" or "blend" the new paint into the old, are forced to blend onto the next panel. If that doesn't make sense ask again :)

[@gm-lb9oe]

Hi Jerry, more great info. I always thought every base needed activator or hardener. I know clear definitely does, or am I wrong? Is there clear without activator?

[@LakesideAutobody]

You're right every urethane clear needs hardener. Acrylic enamel clear (I think paintforcars.com carries it) will dry on it's own but performs much better with hardener. Last, lacquer like - Restoration Shop 1 Gallon Cl3245 Hi-Performance Acrylic Lacquer Clear - does not use a hardener. Have a good weekend GM 😊

[@storedartist8724]

Hey today I sprayed primer and around the areas tht I did body work and the areas around bare metal u can see threw what can I do to fix tht I think it’s called edge mapping

[@LakesideAutobody]

After your primer surfacer (have to use primer surfacer) dries, then you block sand that. That process removes any chance of seeing your body work when painting. You can't do body work, prime and paint as you will always see the edges. You must prime your body work with thick primer surfacer, block sand, prime again, finish sand, then paint. Primer surfacer is a thick type of primer that is made to fill imperfections and the edges of your body work:)

[@designsinorbit]

Very interesting! Let us know if it holds up. Thanks!

[@LakesideAutobody]

I will DIO - thanks for watching :)

[@bradstaffotd4715]

Nice little video. Nice job keep up the good work. Have a great weekend

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks Brad - you too my friend 😊

[@posservice1]

I really enjoy watching these videos. What has been your preference on the settings that work best for you when using the 3M performance gun? Spraying base and clear. Thanks

[@LakesideAutobody]

I spray at 15-18 psi and use the 1.2-1.4mm tip for metallic base and the 1.4mm tip for the clear. I don't spray with a wide open pattern as I think it creates too much overspray. It doesn't matter how wide your pattern is really anyway - it will not effect the way the metallic flakes lay down or anything like that. Guys in a shop spray door jambs with a tiny bit of pressure and a sharp pattern to be super accurate and they turn out great. Or folks even use a spray bomb metallic paint and it turns out fine because of technique :)

[@posservice1]

@@LakesideAutobody Thank you! About to spray solid color base and will see how it does

[@MM2009]

most refinishing shops doesn't activate because its cheaper and most of paint mixing shops doesn't mix for 2:2:1 (with hadner ), so if you add the hardener to your colour coded basecoat it will dry slightly brighter. You don't believe it, spray yourself front bumper with unactivated basecoat, you will see ugly chips only after a month and after a year all will need a respray. also you'll be able to shave off the clear layer with utility knife like kebab as uncured basecoat doesn't have any strength and doesn't bond clear coat with the primed substrate.

[@LakesideAutobody]

I haven't run into that problem at all with any brands. In fact, many BC brands don't require activator like Matrix for example. Luckily the closest paint mixing place carries it. Nason requires it but in this video and others I did use activator on the base and again had zero issues. Now.... If you spray clear w/o activator it will never harden - like you said, "you can shave it off a year later with a utility knife" :)

[@elmo6646]

so as i understand .. some paint product need hardener and others don't ? i'm a big fan of epoxy thats why i was confused because i ordered some paint for my jetski and the colorcoat has no hardener .. but needs a clean on top ! well done sir

[@LakesideAutobody]

Urethane clear absolutely needs hardener - it will stay gummy if none is used. Base coat (color) doesn't need hardener. Acrylic enamel clear doesn't need a hardener but holds up better if one is used. Lacquer clear doesn't need an activator either. Both lacquer and enamel clears are still available and work well but less durable than urethane with an activator

[@petar443]

You can hear the wood stove in the background. Good work 👍

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks Petar - always good to hear from you my friend - have a good weekend :)

[@chucktripp5722]

I am wanting to tint some upol bed liner with single stage urethane. Have you ever tried it.

[@LakesideAutobody]

No - If it works let me know what you did :)

[@1manshtshowandautobodystuf891]

Use speedokotes basecoat activator in any urethane based paint at a fraction of the cost. There paint is killer too at a 1:1 mix. Saves alot of money right there. And basically a buy one get one free.

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks a lot for your input 1 Man - always good to know. Things are getting out of hand $$$.

[@1manshtshowandautobodystuf891]

@LakesideAutobody yes I agree. They make ALOT of stuff. I use many of there products

[@charredskeleton]

Bless you sir!

[@LakesideAutobody]

Bless you too my friend 🎉🎅🎄😊

[@brucesheehe6305]

Sweet!

[@patrickpeterman8736]

HELLO JERRY, sorry to bother you but I,in a quandary here; my neighbor gave me a quart of SHOPLINE READY TO SPRAY ALREADY REDUCED; I attempted to contact PPG- but no help there; the can says SHOPLINE JB 1 ; IS THIS SIMPLY A 1K ALREADY REDUCED BASECOAT COLOR?? THAT REQUIRES NO HARDNER?? and will air dry?? sorry to be so confused, be well my friend,!! Patrick.P

[@LakesideAutobody]

You can spray that with no hardener. You still might want to reduce it a bit more if you think it's too thick right out of the can. It will dry just fine w/o hardener - give it a 1/2 to 1 hour and clear coat it :)

[@patrickpeterman8736]

@@LakesideAutobody Thanks,s again Jerry I had no idea what this paint was; just strain and spray; got it!! BE WELL MY FRIEND, Patrick

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@patrickpeterman8736 You too Patrick - enjoy the rest of the week :)

[@teretz571]

You can paint my car whenever you like, love it great job

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks Alex - appreciate the kind words :)

[@SomeGuyInSandy]

What do you do for thinners / retarders with this paint?

[@LakesideAutobody]

For Nason I used to use their brand of reducer 441-21 - lately I've had trouble getting it so I use Auto Body Master premium medium temp urethane reducer. You can get away with using any quality automotive grade reducers and or thinners. BUT! it's probably always the best to go with one brand for both your paint, reducer, hardener, etc.

[@GarageNoise]

How are you liking that 3m gun?

[@LakesideAutobody]

I like it a lot - mostly because I don't like cleaning guns 🥴 I appreciate you stopping by GN - have a great weekend 👍😊

[@THX..1138]

🤔If you're just looking to save money on hardener you could maybe use Japan Drier instead. It's dirt cheap and does basically the same thing as harder minus the UV protection.

[@LakesideAutobody]

Interesting.... I've heard of this stuff before. I'll look into it. Thanks for you input THX - have a good weekend :)

[@hobbyautobodyfun9315]

What. Is this harder in base coat. Don’t understand

[@LakesideAutobody]

Yes. If you buy Nason Base coat, the guy behind the counter with say you need activator which is pretty darn costly these days. If you buy Matrix or some other brands of base the TDS (data sheet) and the guy behind the counter says it's optional. Since most base coats are very similar (I'm assuming) - I would guess that it is optional for all base coats (the use of a hardener). If that don't help ask again :)

[@mikeklein7931]

Does the clearcoat need a hardener?

[@LakesideAutobody]

Yes - absolutely. If you ever forget to put it in - it'll be the worst day of your life. It hardens just enough to make it absolutely miserable to get the stuff off - a big gummy mess. It will never harden either no matter what you read. Enamel will harden w/o hardener and so will lacquer but not urethane.

[@darrenlub]

Ive never heard of even putting hardner in base, i never have. Just reducer.but i aint no pro painter.

[@designsinorbit]

Oh, maybe he meant to say reducer?

[@LakesideAutobody]

There is somewhat of a debate about it. Some say if you have to make a repair and you didn't use a hardener in the base, it will be difficult because of a poor reaction to new materials i.e. primer and or paint being sprayed over it.

[@russdavis1960]

@@LakesideAutobody A LOT of years ago when 'Death-tron' (yea, that's what we called it) came out, I THINK only DBU was the only base available which was activated.... then they came out with the DBC line which (to the last of my knowledge) was simply reduced.

[@LakesideAutobody]

@@WonTooForAte9 Thanks for the comment - very helpful 👍🛠😊

[@pl5624]

Axalta basemaker Supposibly has activator built in.

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks for that info PL 😊

[@3Wheels1Block]

Good video, I despise nason paint, probably because I got spoiled with PPG Deltron and then used nason and was like ... What's wrong with this stuff 😅. That red seemed to cover well for you 👍🏾

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks 3 Wheels PPG Deltron is some great paint for sure - Dupont and PPG 👍

[@lucasellyson6872]

I was just at OReilley to buy black base and the guy behind the counter said I needed hardener. I asked a well known autobody guy who’s painted for years if Nason needed it and he said no. Wierd you made this video the same time!

[@LakesideAutobody]

That is weird for sure. It's never fun getting a bunch of different answers for a question that should be simple to answer 🥴

[@my357mags]

👍👍

[@LakesideAutobody]

😊

[@ronniemoore773]

Sorry, but you are not a spray painter. 😢

[@LakesideAutobody]

Was but now retired - kzbin.info/www/bejne/l3urkmSdp99ofNU Always ask the folks that give advice on the internet if they actually worked in a real body shop. It's very different from what you hear.

[@1patriotman973]

Looks good 👍 Nice shine 😀

[@LakesideAutobody]

Thanks 👍

[@martybeaudry5747]

good stuff buddy, smoke cigrits relentless

[@LakesideAutobody]

I'll take you advice 🥴✌