Does God Predestine Sin?

God brought the greatest good the world has ever known out of the most horrifying sin the world has ever seen. And it was his plan from before creation.

[@removingveils5824]

To say that God ordained sin or predestined sin would make God a sinner. Christ was indeed crucified for and because of our sin. But it was through the foreknowledge of God who knew that we would sin that He orchestrated the redemptive plan of man through the atonement of Christ.

[@glennlaporte4545]

He hardens people hearts and blinds them so....

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@glennlaporte4545 Which verse/verses say that?

[@alexlunsford4059]

@@losnfjslefn8857 Romans 9

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@alexlunsford4059 Romans 9 talks about how the nation of Israel was hardened for repeatedly disobeying God and hardening their own hearts after the many, many chances they were given to repent.

[@thecomingstorm9327]

Did God make man to be attracted to woman? Yes_ No _ If the answer is yes, then he predestined you to sin, since Jesus said if you look at a woman and lust you have committed adultery Mat 5:28. Paul also said all uncleanness is sin Eph 5:3,Col 3:5 The bible says if a man has relations with his wife and seminal emission comes out of him then he is unclean Lev 15:16 The bible says menstruation is uncleanness Lev 15 Birth is also uncleanness and animal sacrifice was utilized Lev 12:5-6. Why do you think the NT champions virginity? Because the text is saying it's better to stay away from the sin intimate contact. Paul himself championed virginity and told the Corinthians it is better for you windows [those whose husbands have died] and those of you who have never married to stay single as I am, but you can marry only on the grounds of a burning desire you cannot control 1 Cor 7:8-9 Christ said whosoever is able to become a Eunuch [a man with no testicles] for the Kingdom of God let him receive it Mat 19:12. Whether you believe this is literal as the early church fathers did hiring Physicians to chop off their family Jewels or just a vow of self control [no chopping] this verse still commands men to avoid marrying and being with women. Rev 12:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Defiled is μολύνω which means men who have not out their members into the contaminated secretions of women. According to the Greek to put your member [private part] inside of a woman's hole is a sin, because you contaminate yourself with her secretions [the wet fluid] inside her.

[@deliadelgado3364]

God is so passionate about his own glory that He Himself planned so perfectly His coming in the flesh from the beginning. Of course Adam had to fall in order for Jesus to rise up. Of course man had to be exposed to sin in order for God to exposed how holy He is. Of course God uses sin in order for the greater and better outcome to take place. It’s all perfectly and divinely designed. A God who I think basically said I will make man but He will fall and the pressure of the fall will be so heavy and burdened on him that I will go and redeem him from his sin and it will all be do because I am love. God is love. And this is the greatest love story ever told. My God is a sovereign God and no created thing could ever change Him. My God was big when I thought I had free will but now my God is even bigger now that I know He is completely and utterly sovereign in all ways! I rejoice in a God that I know nothing can take him by surprise. My God does not learn because he makes no mistakes and he writes down history! Praise the Lord my God in Jesus mighty name!!!

[@abisamraj4408]

So we are just the purpose of God 2 stroke his ego we should become sinners to blow refi him and some of us should go to the eternal fire so that he will be glorified seams so good

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Does man's wickedness glorify God? I think it does not. God doesn't sovereignly decree all evil that comes to pass, this would mean God personally decrees the worst of evils like torture, blasphemy, pedophilia, incest, rape and murder. There is no evil in God, and for a good God to personally decree evil is a contradiction. Therefore God allows evil to exist through man and Satan's free will which he allows to be free, and foresees evil coming to pass but does not personally will or decree it into existence. This is calvinism's Achilles heel in my view, to say a holy God personally decrees wicked things to come to pass. Either man actually has a free will which God gives him, or God has personally had a hand in the existence of wickedness. So I think. I'm not God so I acknowledge my perception of all things isn't perfect but God gave us reasoning abilities as well and expects us to use them.

[@Android-ds9ie]

@@prayunceasingly2029 god is the author of sin

[@peterdiscipleofjesus]

max marrero from my observation, and what Jesus taught. He is worried about what derived from our heart, then in itself is the sin. Actions I take need to sometime be taken to teach others lesson or show them the truth. How I sin is what derived out of my heart. “If he lust after a woman he has already committed adultery in his heart.”

[@neonfroot]

Then that means God is really fucked up

[@thalon8492]

If nothing else I appreciate Piper had the guts to tackle this kind of topic. Can definitely see some tension with his argument, based on what's in the comments, but Piper went for it. He's one of the few pastors who not only swims in choppy waters, he willingly dives in.

[@jamesbertram7925]

What a massive contradiction of the character of our Creator , revealed in His Son

[@jgreen7067]

God Bless the Holy Spirit and the glory of God Amen Thank you Pastor.

[@Drspeiser]

Calvinism drives people insane 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@lionofjudahlambofgod9132]

Amen God is not the author of sin

[@jaymorris9952]

Just because God knew that we would sin and allowed us to sin doesn't mean that God "ordained" us to sin. God always knew we would choose to sin, so He planned accordingly. His plan was to send Christ, who overcame sin. God allows evil, but always brings about something good as a result. In that way, God is sovereign, always in control. For us to truly have free will, we needed to be able to choose God on our own, but how can we choose God if there is nothing else to choose? That's why evil has to exist, so that we can choose between God and evil. Evil is the exact opposite of God, just as darkness is the opposite of light. God wants to love and to be loved, and what kind of love would it be if we didn't have a free will of our own to CHOOSE to love Him? That's the most true form of love and the kind of love that God desires

[@jaymorris9952]

@max marrero you've been listening to too many Calvinists

[@abisamraj4408]

@@jaymorris9952 honestly God's love is not worth The Torture of hell God should not have created human beings with the free will

[@jaymorris9952]

@@abisamraj4408well that's the world's problem, everyone wants to blame something else for their shortcomings, including blaming God for our sin problem. He even sent us a solution, which was Christ, and all he requires is trust in him for salvation. But man still chooses to reject him and blame him

[@abisamraj4408]

@@jaymorris9952 if God had given me an option of being a the a human or an angel I would have chosen to be an angel without no problem God deliberately created us so it is God's responsibility to restore as no one ask God to create them with the sinful nature

[@abisamraj4408]

@@paimon1250 what kind of free will you are talking about Adam and Eve chose to disobey god not me neither I asked God to give me a life which is not worth it you said I don't deserve anything I do because some. One created me so it's their duty to give me everything you don't create a robot and say that robot don't deserve any thing ! We would only sin because we were born with the sin nature or flesh. We didn't ask to be born,we had no free will to be born into sin. We weren't born like Adam without sin,and made a choice. I understand you can't answer this question,but to make excuses and give ridiculos answers doesn't help anyone understand better. It says in the bible Ezekiel 18 1-19 that the son shouldn't be held accountable for the father's sin. But that is exactly what is happening , Edit box

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

You make God a human child playing himself in chess ♟

[@77ronboy]

We all (me included) have God in a box. We think we know how He thinks, and come-up with reasons why He has affected (brought to pass) many things down through history. We say we know He had a plan for us, but we continually deny that He planned certain events both in the world and in our lives. If there is ANYTHING that happened on this earth (including sin in The Garden) was not in His plan, then His plan was not perfect. Piper makes a tremendous statement in that if sin had not happened in The Garden, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to come down her. Also, remember the reason God begat Jesus in the first place was so that He would be the redeemer of His Children, yet to be born. If that was God's purpose in Jesus, and He was begotten [before creation], then it is a no-brainer that sin played a vital part in God's Plan of redemption for us, His Children.

[@Android-ds9ie]

But in the end there will be many people in the hell it is the most tragic story one can ever imagine

[@avalancha2234]

A plan can be perfect AND have flawed people in it. God's omnipotence shows the most when He can achieve his perfect plan AND decree himself *free will* as his plans for human beings. That I think is the most powerfull and amazing way God can achieve His perfect plans. Humans being fully responsible and God being fully sovereign. If someone falls and sins, that does not affect God in any way or his plans, because He knows that person would have sinned anyway. Like the verse that says He turned the wicked plans into a good thing. He does not need to give part of His omnipotence to allow free will.

[@glennlaporte4545]

@@Android-ds9ie It is tragic if it were true. God will refine people with fire who didn't believe while in their earthly bodies. Once the process of being made righteous is done, they will be set free.

[@Android-ds9ie]

@@glennlaporte4545 where did you get that Idea from the Bible

[@4jchan]

@@Android-ds9ie Yes it's tragic but it shows God to be Holy and just

[@Arman_Kaymakcian]

Not a mystery lol not a paradox God is in no way responsible for sin, you are dragged away by your own desires and enticed. God does what He pleases but what does He please, Gods will is that you would not sin. Gods will is for you to repent and believe. Gods will to crucify Jesus was because what happened to Jesus is what we deserved, that’s Gods judgment poured out on Jesus for our sake the sins of the world. Welcome to the gospel.

[@Jasonio77]

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:13-14

[@anchorofgracedevotionals2239]

Sounds like this violates the Law of noncontradiction

[@DrChrisPM]

You're right. And this is why I don't understand why people say that Calvinism is logical. It fails the laws of logic. Morally, calvinism makes God out to be evil

[@katlegomolokoe4437]

Deep truth!

[@kodymorrison2662]

To respond to the first minute in the video of what he was saying: You can't make sense of God's will from the lens of the calvanist doctrine.

[@lionofjudahlambofgod9132]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fqbTm4Wud9xgidE

[@lukewagner8871]

The following scripture verses gives insight into this topic. Hebrews 5:12-14 KJVS [12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [13] For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. In order for His children to be brought into maturity, God had to allow both good and evil to exist. For sin to exist. God had to subject the creature to vanity. Romans 8:20-21 KJVS [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. I do not think even God can create a mature and obedient son out of the box, so to speak. Even our Lord learned obedience by the things he suffered, He 5:8. So He created a environment where He could teach and mature His sons using His Spirit. See He 12:11. www.justifiedfreely.com/?p=372

[@gilbertlillo9831]

Amen. However this must not be limited only to the death of our Lord. God ordained all sins so that finally in the end, in the eternal state we shall see the infinite wisom of God ; how out of darkness he brings light. Now we cannot understand it, but one day we shall.

[@miguelz8721]

James 1:13 KJV

[@chriswolf529]

Yours is the best comment because you are stepping aside and letting scriptures speak for itself.

[@TheOtherCaleb]

Piper’s beliefs are contradictory.

[@Arabian_Epileptic]

I am a Calvinist and this is absurd. This can’t be the complete answer

[@Arabian_Epileptic]

@@Jasperstone43100 ru Catholic?

[@lovejoypeaceforever]

"If the prophet be deceived... I the LORD have deceived that prophet..." (Ezekiel 14:9) ; "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:34) ; "The seed of the righteous shall be delivered." (Pr. 11:21) ; "You shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away." (I Peter 5:4) ; "Make you perfect." (I Peter 5:10) ; "God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." (Psalm 73:26) ; "We shall be saved." (Isaiah 64:5) ; "I will also save you." (Ezekiel 36:29) ; "God has not cast away his people which he foreknew." (Romans 11:2) ; "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." (Psalm 103:10-12) ; "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." (Matthew 18:14) ; "The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate." (Psalm 34:22) ; "The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness." (Jeremiah 51:10a) ; "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:26) ; "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Romans 4:21) ; For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us." (Isaiah 33:22) ; "For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance." (Psalm 94:14) ; "For thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee." (Jonah 1:14) ; "Even the selfsame day it came to pass." (Exodus 12:41) : "Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?" (Job 38:36) ; "The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him." (Nahum 1:7) ; "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:" (Isaiah 14:24) ; "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27) ; "Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away." (Job 14:20) ; "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." (Matthew 15:13) ; "But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil." (II Thessalonians 3:3) JOHN Stewart ~ [e-mail] minds.com/lovejoypeaceforever

[@jessegandy7361]

If you consider a distinction between 'ordain' and 'decree' the problem of evil is solved: God ordains the various means (which are riddled with sinful thoughts, words, and actions) that bring about what He decrees to happen.

[@merecatholicity]

This comment should be higher up. I agree completely. Just because God ordains something, does not mean he authors the sinful actions that bring about the ends. He is sovereign over the sinful actions, no doubt, but permissibly, not actively.

[@jordancurrie1756]

@@merecatholicity this is a great comment, and one that helps me understand this process. I am reformed, the bible preaches God's sovereignty and election over and over and over.....but I have always had an issue with the predetermination of sin

[@losnfjslefn8857]

Aren't ordain and decree synonyms of each other, though?

[@deliadelgado3364]

‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

It’s because you say you can see, that which is humanistic reasonings make sense

[@user-rh5uu1td7f]

Calvinist gymnastics 101

[@ZambianZebras]

No He doesn't....let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[@AL-ri6bk]

Mh Who is the biblical God?

[@Android-ds9ie]

She is the biggest asshole full of shit

[@Mrm1985100]

What a load of nonsense. This is totally insane.

[@voltmanip]

ROMANS 8:29/30 KJV

[@bobfree1226]

As CS LEWIS said,this kind of God would be worst than satan,and i agree.HOW could GOD condemm Sin if He also decreed it from the beginning. Wesley said This kind of Love makes ones blood run Cold.Calvim himself who rejected Limited Atonement called it Dreadful and Terrible !!the earliest of Reformers also reject it!! but were still 3 and 4 pt calvanists.

[@Android-ds9ie]

honestly there is no difference between God and Devil hopefully there was some bigger God one day he will destroy these two 2 MF

[@Hebrew42Day]

Who is the SON OF GOD? Ex 4:22 Hos 11:1

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

The Bible makes the most sense when you allow for the clear teaching of free will :) God has one will. People are responsible for the sin. God has the most glory because He isn't creating child rape for "His glory". That is insane and unbiblical

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

Well king me John

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

Haha, God is of infinite worth and He must and should maximize His glory. If our sinning glorifies God more then it MUST be done. Let us glorify the infinite God in our destruction or glorification. For God ordains and predetermines all things, even sin yet in such a way that He isn't responsible for it and men is absolutely culpable for it. Like how God is one yet in three, like how Jesus is fully man and fully God, so is God is fully ordaining all sins but is fully inculpable and not responsible for it.

[@ServusChristiPaulus]

One would think you are reading satanic bible not Holy Bible..

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

@@ServusChristiPaulus That's the implications of Calvinism, if the unconditional electrion true - as Calvin, Luther and Augustine all espoused then there's no other way to take this. Delusion is grand

[@EDeboss28]

Excellent, just excellent.

[@cowbee9256]

Could you explain it? I'm very lost and confused.

[@servantEG]

Piper goes more in depth on the whole subject in his book "Does God desire all to be saved" which I highly recommend reading. Basically he shows using several biblical examples that there is a difference between God's moral will and His "will of decree". In His sovereign will God can want something to happen (for a greater purpose) that does not reflect His moral standards, the Cross as the God decreed murder of His Son being the premier example. This distinction is crucial for solving otherwise contradictory passages, like Ez 18:32 vs. Deut 28:63; Isa 42:18 vs. Rom 11:7-8; or Rev 17:8,12,14 vs Rev 17:16-17.

[@wtom04]

+CorpsmanUp 1898 Your comment - "Could you explain it? I'm very lost and confused." My comment - John Piper is a false teacher and heretic. His teachings would cause anyone with a sound mind to be lost and confused. Calvinism makes God the author of sin and evil, thereby exonerating Satan and man. Please consider the following. Genesis 6:6 debunks Calvinism's false teaching that He decreed the fall of man. If you create something and then INTENTIONALLY engineer it for failure, then you shouldn't be feeling regret and grief afterwards. After all, you engineered it for FAILURE. If God created man and then INTENTIONALLY decreed his fall, then it makes no logical sense for God to feel regret and grief afterwards. Hence, the errant belief that God decreed the fall of man is debunked. Genesis 6:6KJV - And it REPENTED the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM at his heart. The Calvinist "God" goes, "Oops, I screwed up!" "Now I'm going to destroy man with the worldwide flood." The God of the Bible, goes, "I have created man and given him free will, but man has willfully become defiant, disobedient, unfaithful, and very wicked and has screwed up BIG TIME in epic proportions, so therefore I will destroy him with the worldwide flood, but I have spared Noah and his family because he is the only one that fears me and does what is right. The reason why God felt regret and grief is because God DID NOT decree the fall of man. If He did, then He would not have felt regret and grief afterwards.

[@wtom04]

+CorpsmanUp 1898 There is always contradiction and double talk in Calvinism in regards to whether or not God is the author of sin. Check this out. It's lengthy, but please take your time to carefully read it. You will see the contradiction and double talk that will no doubt create confusion in the minds of many who are not well grounded in God's Word. Calvinists contradict themselves and there is DOUBLE TALK in regards to whether or not God is the author of sin and evil. 1) "The sovereignty of God also teaches THAT GOD IS NOT THE RESPONSIBLE AUTHOR OF EVIL, that man is a free moral agent who is not forced to sin and who is responsible for what he does." - Grover E. Gunn, in his book, "The Doctrines of Grace", 1987, page 14. 2) "GOD IS NEITHER THE AUTHOR OF SIN, NOR SANCTIONS IT (APPROVES IF IT). HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN, THOUGH HE DECREED IT. Those guilty of sinning are responsible." - Jay Adams, in his book, "The Grand Demonstration", page 61, 1991. 3) "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby NEITHER IS GOD THE AUTHOR OF SIN...." - Westminster Confession of Faith, III "Of God's Eternal Decree", item #1 4) Westminster Confession of Faith, V. "Of Providence", Item# 4 bottom paragraph it states...."as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and NOT FROM GOD, WHO, BEING MOST HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS, NEITHER IS NOR CAN BE THE AUTHOR OR APPROVER OF SIN." 5) The London Confession of Faith, Chapter 5, Of Divine Providence, #4 - The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and NOT FROM GOD, WHO, BEING MOST HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS, NEITHER IS NOR CAN BE THE AUTHOR OR APPROVER OF SIN." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUT HOWEVER, you have the below following eminent Calvinist apologists and John Calvin himself making totally contradictory statements that is not in line with what is asserted by Grover E. Gunn and Jay Adams who are both Calvinists as well and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the London Confession of Faith. 1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234 2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88. 3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961). 4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249 5) Edwin Palmer - "IT IS EVEN BIBLICAL TO SAY THAT GOD HAS FOREORDAINED SIN. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82 6) Edwin Palmer - "All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history-whether with inorganic matter, vegetation, animals, man, or angels (both the good and evil ones)-come to pass because God ordained them. EVEN SIN -- THE FALL OF THE DEVIL FROM HEAVEN, THE FALL OF ADAM, AND EVERY EVIL THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED IN ALL OF HISTORY, INCLUDING THE WORST SIN OF ALL, Judas’ betrayal of Christ-is included in the eternal decree of our holy God." - page 120, Edwin Palmer - in his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism". 7) Edwin Palmer - "SIN IS NOT ONLY FOREKNOWN BY GOD, IT IS ALSO FOREORDAINED BY GOD" - On page 122, 1980 in his book, ""The 5 Points of Calvinism". 8) William Shedd - "Nothing comes to pass contrary to his desire. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." In his book, "Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, page 37, 1986. 9) J. Gresham Machen - "All things including even the wicked actions of wicked men and devils -- are brought to pass in accordance with God's eternal purpose." In his book, "Christian View of Man, page 46, 1965. 10) William Shedd - "Sin is one of the "whatsoevers" that have "come to pass", all of which are "ordained". In his book, "Calvinism" Pure and Mixed, page 31, 1986 Finally we have JOHN CALVIN: John Calvin falsely taught that God is the author of sin and evil. 1) "Thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict." From Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" - Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5. 2) "The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, NAY UNLESS IN SO FAR AS HE COMMANDS, THAT THEY ARE NOT ONLY BOUND BY HIS FETTERS BUT ARE EVEN FORCED TO DO HIM SERVICE." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11. 3) "I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have FALLEN BY GOD'S WILL." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4. 4) "The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter, 23, Paragraph 8. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MY comment - The above is what I call DOUBLE TALK where Calvinists say 2 different things out of their mouths contradicting themselves.

[@servantEG]

Your conceived "double talk" stems from the fact that you mix up "being the author" and "decreeing/foreordaining" something. The fact that God wills one thing to happen doesn't make Him the acting agent. Piper nowhere makes God acting agent in this snippet - nor does any of your quoted sources. Also with your comment on the Flood: A Calvinist would never say "God screwed up". That notion is absolutely contrary to Calvinist understanding of God's sovereignty. It's actually the free will scenario that displays God as the weak and failing individual, because it conveys that God had a plan, but humans thwarted it - making God appear unable to bring about His desires, and human beings ultimately more sovereign than God. When it comes to regret, 1 Sam 15:11.28-29 stands against your case. It's the only other instance in the Bible where God regrets something and here it clearly underlines that God's taking the kingdom from Saul isn't God changing His mind. Because it was His plan to give it to David in the first place, and not to Saul. Interestingly already Gen 49:8-10 affirms that the kingdom would be given and remain with the tribe of Judah, but Saul was of the tribe of Benjamin. It was clear from the beginning that Saul's kingship over Israel wouldn't last. David wasn't God's plan B, it was His plan from the beginning. Saul wasn't His failed plan, it was a foreordained step towards the fulfillment of Gen 49:8-10.

[@brianhyde5900]

As human beings we are fallible and vulnerable. This is because we are evolving in consciousness. Like children, we get things "right" and we get things "wrong". God has children -- us. God knows we get things wrong and has allowed for that just like we do with OUR children. We would not be children, otherwise. So the idea that God imputes our wrongs to us as "sins" imo, is simply not true, no more than it's true t...hat we impute our children's wrongs to them as "sins". How could God impute wrong to beings who have yet to evolve to that place where they realize what they are doing IS wrong? How could God impute wrong to beings who are themselves the arbiter of what is wrong, as they are persuaded? It's a matter of conscience. What may be wrong for you, may not be wrong for me. No man is another man's conscience. God is not our conscience---we are. God is not a force of law; God is a constraint of Love. Love convicts and brings about change, by its virtue of its own attraction. Indeed, Love is the greatest attraction for change there is. Law condemns, but cannot bring change; on the contrary it repulses. Moreover, Love keeps no record of wrong. If our humanity were fully evolved, it would be infallible and doing wrong would not even be a consideration. Within our human sphere, however, our fallibility notwithstanding, there are consequences for our actions. But WE, as self-accountable stewards of our lives, are SELF-accountable. It's an unwritten law that we reap what we sow. And if for some reason it appears that we, or others are not, rest assured those consequences do remain, but because we are all self-accountable, imo our own Spirit will deal with the consequences in the afterlife, but there it will be within Love and without ego. In the meantime, secular criminal law deals with criminal offences, for criminal offences are imputed under secular criminal law. Otherwise, making mistakes is how we humans learn. It's all part of our natural development within the evolution of consciousness.

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

Can’t handle your meat? You guys like sauce?

[@timvanschubert3177]

Piper adequately supported all his assertions with scripture. To deny what he is arguing is to exercise unbelief in God's word.

[@evanu6579]

Tim van Schubert Piper is missing a crucial aspect to all of this though.... 2Tim 2: 20 ¶ But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. God doesn’t use us against our character. He uses the wicked for the day of evil as stated in Pro 16:4. God doesn’t just decide to raise up a sweet innocent man to be the Pharaoh to harden his heart and show His power in him. Jer 18: 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. He’s a God of compassion, not willing that any should perish. If He needs to carry out judgement, He’ll use a wicked man for it. God bless

[@Mrm1985100]

Rubbish. This sermon is close to blasphemy.

[@Robbie-vu6pl]

Genesis 6:6 debunks Calvinism's false teaching that He "predestined" everything including the fall of man, sin, and evil. Calvinists also believe that God created man and then INTENTIONALLY predestined his fall and predestined sin and evil. If that is true, then it makes no logical sense for God to feel regret and be deeply troubled afterwards. Hence, the errant belief that God predestined the fall of man is debunked and blown out of the water. Genesis 6:6 - The Lord REGRETTED that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was DEEPLY TROUBLED. If YOU create something and then intentionally engineer it for FAILURE, THEN YOU SHOULD NOT BE FEELING REGRET AND BE TROUBLED AFTERWARDS. If you deliberately and intentionally create a passenger airliner where it will explode in midair killing hundreds of passengers, then you would not be feeling regret and be troubled afterwards. I mean after all, you created it to explode, why would you feel regret and be troubled afterwards? Calvinism's wicked teaching that God predestined man's fall, sin, and evil is based upon a perverted understanding of such passages like Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. However, the context of those passages is clearly explained by many passages in the book of Jeremiah and other Old Testament books. The passages in those books explain that God brings evil, disaster, and calamity upon nations and people when they are living in disobedience, unfaithfulness, and wickedness. God brings those things upon nations and individuals as punishment and as a wakeup call. These passages include Jeremiah 16:10-12, Jeremiah 5:19, 2 Chronicles 7:21-22, 1 Kings 9:8-9, etc. Calvinism's demonic teaching makes God the author of sin and evil and in essence exonerates Satan and man. There is double talk and contradiction in Calvinism regarding whether or not God is the author of sin and evil. Calvinism's wicked teaching is a direct attack on the true nature and character of God. God's foreknowledge of the Inquisition, the Holocaust, Pearl Harbor, Dec 7, 1941, the Rape of Nanking 1937, and the 9/11 Terrorist attacks does NOT equal to God intentionally and deliberately making those atrocities happen. Those atrocities happened due to the innate evil and wickedness of men's hearts. James 1:13-14 - When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” FOR GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED BY EVIL, NOR DOES HE TEMPT ANYONE; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away BY THEIR OWN EVIL DESIRE and enticed. Jeremiah 7:30-31 - “‘The people of Judah have DONE EVIL in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-SOMETHING I DID NOT COMMAND, NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND. Jeremiah 19:5 - They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-SOMETHING I DID NOT COMMAND OR MENTION, NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND. Jeremiah 32:35 - They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I NEVER COMMANDED -NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND-that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. The Bible teaches John 3:16, NOT "John Calvin 3:16".

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Jesus Himself said, "Unless you repent, you likewise will perish." Sounds like a choice to me. In Deuteronomy God said, " I have set before you, life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore, CHOOSE life, that you and your offspring may live..." Again, that is God Himself telling us to CHOOSE. In 1st John 1:9 it says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." NOTICE it doesn't say "when we confess" which would be the case in a Calvinist view, but "if" implying a choice. Hebrews 11:6 says, "...without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." Again, you can't read this and not see that God is calling us CHOOSE to draw near to Him and seek Him. Acts 16:311 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Why would that verse even be in the Bible if it is already decided who will be saved? John 3:16-17 says, "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." It does NOT say ONLY the ones God has chosen will have eternal life. Look, I know there are many scriptures that talk of God predestining this or that, but it is based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE. That means there is a reason why He predestines. It is not just arbitrary, as is the case with Calvinism. Jeremiah 19:5 says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it." So, while God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance and be saved, many, in fact, most are not. This is irrefutable proof that God’s will is NOT always being done.

[@storba3860]

That's no different from no god at all. He can't get anything done without the help of humans (everyone will end up in Hell) or God doesn't actually want people to go to Heaven (nobody will go to Heaven at all). Both are hard deterministic universes where following God is beyond pointless.

[@LeonMortgage]

​@storba3860 No, you formed a conclusion before you thought about the details. God gave us free will to choose. If we had no free will then it would be pointless. We can choose to follow his law or reject it and suffer the consequences

[@paulwright7551]

I feel dumber for having heard this explanation. Allowing sinners to choose to sin is not predestination of such sin. But all Calvinist must violate the Law of noncontradiction.

[@edwinherrera6840]

I think the teaching of Augustine has poison the drinking water

[@israelcrucifiedinchrist797]

amen

[@kennethogorman5436]

God created humans who he knew would go to hell he allowed them to be born. It says it in the script.. what a joke

[@20july1944]

Generalizing from Calvary to "God predestines all sins" is strange on a few levels: If Calvary was a sin at all, it was an absolutely unique "sin": -- The Father commanded it and it was prophesied, -- The Son *agreed* to it and *obtained* both eternal glory AND (at least the potential) welfare of everyone He died for (and presumably loved), so Jesus can't be seen as an ordinary Victim in this. -- Given that Jesus knew it would accomplish its goal and that He would rise again to greater glory, I would say Calvary was more like a *horrifically* painful operation that Jesus knew He had to undergo for our benefit (and His glory and our gratitude) but that He also knew would be successful and that He would survive, rather than a sin/crime/victim issue. I don't think this is a good argument by Piper and I find it odd that this channel decided to turn it into a stand-alone video to make the argument (I guess) that God predestines all sins.

[@20july1944]

No, historical date.

[@20july1944]

Brady: The Bomb Plot.

[@henrywei6107]

I am going to try and compare Calvary to, say, a man getting stabbed to death in the street due to personal hatred, which I feel is a reasonable example of most if not all sins (do correct me in this if there is sin which is drastically different) -Depending on one's belief in predestination, one can believe either way as to whether the Father commanded the man's death, though surely the fact that in Revelation 18:24 it states that "in [Babylon] was found the blood of ... all who have been slaughtered on the earth" does give reasonable support for the prophecy that many people will be killed on the earth, though I recognize that it may not be the best passage to do so-it was just the first one that came to mind. -The man had the potential to accept Christ's gospel and thus agree to rejection and hatred from this world, as well as potential to obtain salvation after death through Christ's grace. -largely the same argument for the third point, as the man had the potential to accept the gospel and know that his death will accomplish his goal of spending his life for God, as well as the potential for his resurrection. Thus just as Christ undergone such an operation, the man had the potential to undergo a very similar operation in being a victim of a sin of murder, should he accept the gospel, and thus knowing that he will be successful and survive due to God's grace. I would appreciate your feedback on my opinion, but looking at it from this point, I do not suppose it is unreasonable to compare everyday sin to Calvary.

[@20july1944]

Henry: Are you a Calvinist? If you are, you may think God orchestrates the sinful desires and opportunity the stabber had to stab. I'm not a Calvinist, so I don't think God orchestrates ordinary sins like the stabbing. I think God orchestrated (as in Molinism) Calvary because it was vital to His plan. I don't think God desired the stabbing, it was an ordinary outworking of free will sin. Where you are on Calvinism dictates what you think happened there.

[@1unisol1]

I do wonder though, do you believe that the men that convicted Jesus, the man who betrayed Jesus and the men who nailed Jesus to the cross will go to hell an be punnished for these things (along with other things)?

[@wtom04]

If God deliberately "predestined" sin and evil, then He would not have expressed regret and grief in Genesis 6:6. Genesis 6:6KJV - And it REPENTED the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM at his heart. If you create something and then INTENTIONALLY engineer it for failure, then you shouldn't be feeling regret and grief afterwards. After all, you engineered it for FAILURE. If God created man and then INTENTIONALLY decreed his fall, then it makes no logical sense for God to feel regret and grief afterwards. Hence, the errant belief that God decreed the fall of man is debunked.

[@jojof7027]

wtom04 i was just thinking about this myself... 🙃

[@deliadelgado3364]

“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should REPENT: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” ‭‭Numbers‬ ‭23:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” ‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬ Also read chapter 9 of Romans so you can get a clearer picture of just how big God is. Might want to check your scripture again my friend. God is sovereign and even man cannot find the precise words to describe just how incredibly sovereign He is. Only a fool would think God shares his free will with man. We are the creation not the creator. God bless you!

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@deliadelgado3364 What about Romans 9?

[@4jchan]

That's like saying that the soldiers in WW2 during the invasion of Normandy knew they were going to die in battle but they didn't feel any grief So of course God feels regret for intentionally decreeing the fall because God in his holiness abhors sin And yet God allows sin to exist to display His grace and mercy

[@wtom04]

@@4jchan If God feels regret then that means that He did not decree the fall of man including sin and evil. Calvinism falsely teaches that God "decreed" sin, evil, and the fall of man, but the following Scriptural passages REFUTE Calvinism's false teaching: James 1:13-14 - When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” FOR GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED BY EVIL, NOR DOES HE TEMPT ANYONE; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away BY THEIR OWN EVIL DESIRE and enticed. Jeremiah 7:30-31 - “‘The people of Judah have DONE EVIL in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-SOMETHING I DID NOT COMMAND, NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND. Jeremiah 32:35 - They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I NEVER COMMANDED -NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND-that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. The Bible teaches John 3:16, NOT "John Calvin 3:16".

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

It doesn’t really take much thought, lay out the map from beginning to end and say God predestined it all, no thought at all....

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

“I’m as free as a bird now, and this bird you cannot change”

[@bobfree1226]

Again GOD knew that the only way to save man is for GOD to die to expiate SIN. SO he sets the stage so to speak but was NOT Responsible for his death.He used the evil intenstions of MAN, to accomplish it. GOD in a sense planed how it would happen and where but again man was Responsible. Only a GOD without sin could accomplish it!! Piper is wrong

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

So satan doesn’t disrupt the will of God, God does? And God does and doesn’t at the same time!!! It’s amazing!!! Uhhhh John?

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

God be wresting Himself in your teaching, like even what He wants He wrestles Himself

[@bobfree1226]

if God chooses before it all began a certain some of elect people ,there would be no NEED of the Cross.

[@jonathanchan7395]

That is just plain strawman sir. You should do more research about Reformed theology

[@bobfree1226]

@@jonathanchan7395 well lets talk about it. calvanism says God Does what he pleases, if he decided to choose who was going to be saved before he created people, then why the Cross? if he predestined who he foreknew according to your logic again no need of any cross . it sure appears that where Puppets,in your logic!!

[@bobfree1226]

@@jonathanchan7395 ive been doing that for more years than you. and i must say thier are many variations of Reformed People. in Fact sir,almost all early reformers Rejected Limited Atonement!! i bet you didnt know that did you!!

[@bobfree1226]

@@jonathanchan7395 according to JOHN PIPER. GOD decrees all events.planned the fall an was responsible for all sorts of evil/. no strawman here. im waiting.

[@jonathanchan7395]

​@@bobfree1226 I've been a Calvinist since 1999 which is long enough to do some serious study. Nevermind what Reformed theologians from the past thought although that can be noted. What is central is a proper handling of the Scriptures about the issue?

[@hoobadigagamer7986]

Calvin teachers like God sauce on everything, they throw it on the walls when eating steak, even when they eat naughty foods they put God sauce on it.

[@emilesturt3377]

Calvinism: God to the child: Just give me your rubbish, ill put it in the bin, clean you up, change your clothes and we can hang out forever... else I'll have to damn you. Child: What, this rubbish? God: Yes Child: Well I don't think I really believe in you and can't seem to part from this rubbish and dirt that plagues my life, the life that I didn't ask for in the first place, though don't get me wrong, I'm greatful to be alive. Would you help me? (the analogy goes off somewhat here) God: No, because I hav'nt effectively and personally revealed myself to you because your not one of my (for no reason) favourites... Oh, and by the way, I decreed and ordained all your actions in life... You're basically screwed son. Child: (cries) Ohhh Haha

[@marcelniles342]

So much truth...you are right John Piper...❣❣❣

[@HardeepHayre]

God uses sin but he doesn't cause it 👀... Big difference. This is a terrible teaching and it contradicts much of the Bible and also the character of God.

[@carlosmanuelhernandez7535]

; id like to be interviewed and paid; just because of my knowledge; thank you.........

[@newmannoggs]

|Absolute blasphemy. It's not a 'mystery' that god 'forbids things he brings about and hinders things he commands.' it's a false gospel. God is not a liar, nor the author of confusion. Any guesses as to who that is?

[@newmannoggs]

Rather than insulting people and making vague, unsubstantiated assertions, post one or two of these 'many times' and then we'll talk about how you're interpreting scripture. Otherwise, give it a rest.

[@newmannoggs]

Read your own. If you make claims about the bible backing up your theology 'many times' yet 'can't be bothered' to give even ONE example then you're better off staying silent, as you're contributing nothing.

[@mauricejchiasson]

Im very sorry for starting this conversation. Please, and truly, keep reading your Bible.

[@newmannoggs]

I will. Please keep reading yours too brother.

[@Cappellano]

An overly simplistic argument for what is beyond human comprehension. If sin is God's will, why would He condemn sin? With Piper's logic, God is an indecisive schizophrenic, who commands people to do things that He does not intend for them to complete, while at the same time He condemns other people to death for sins He willed for them to commit. This is not Reformed theology, it's rationalism that twists and augments the true character of God revealed through scripture.

[@fromdeathtolife1]

If you read the Old Testament, in the Prophets, you will find God ordering empires to punish the children of Israel for their unrepentant sin against God. However, He later condemns them for raising a hand against His chosen people. God cannot be viewed through our lens of right and wrong. Consistency with Scripture, would include ALL scripture. God is able to be both loving and wrathful and sovereign in both. The reason why the freewill theory believer has trouble seeing God as being absolutely sovereign, is because he thinks man is at the center of God's affections and purposes. According to the Scripture, His glory is His chief aim. He receives the same amount of glory in salvation as He does in judgment and therefore can prepare some vessels of clay for wrath and destruction and some for glory and accomplish His Sovereign will in both.

[@Cappellano]

Andy Marciano Indeed I agree and I think you have done a better job of explaining the nature of God's sovereignty than Piper did in this video. As a pastor in the Reformed Church I do not accept Arminianism, though I find over simplistic explanations of 'human' sin frustrating. In my personal opinion, we need to balance our theology with the fact that there are aspects of God's plan that we will never fully understand on this side of creation. I agree with you and I think we need to be very careful not to present such a shallow explanation for a very profound topic... I will look for the full sermon to see what more Piper said on the topic. The danger is that people who are currently drowning in sin will conclude that they are predestined to remain in sin and so they reject the Gospel message. Sin is not a force or power, but part of our fallen condition, and the only salvation from our sin is God. Is God the cause of sin? “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.” ‭‭James‬ ‭1:12-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ The Hebrew understanding of God doing 'evil' comes from the understanding that nothing can happen without God's permission, but does that mean that God caused Satan to rebel and fall, or Adam to take of the fruit? Tough questions indeed... “Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:6-8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ Thank you for your thoughtful reply and God bless you.

[@wtom04]

+Jacob Bali Genesis 6:6 debunks Calvinism's false teaching that He decreed the fall of man. If you create something and then INTENTIONALLY engineer it for failure, then you shouldn't be feeling regret and grief afterwards. After all, you engineered it for FAILURE. If God created man and then INTENTIONALLY decreed his fall, then it makes no logical sense for God to feel regret and grief afterwards. Hence, the errant belief that God decreed the fall of man is debunked. Genesis 6:6KJV - And it REPENTED the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM at his heart. The Calvinist "God" goes, "Oops, I screwed up!" "Now I'm going to destroy man with the worldwide flood." The God of the Bible, goes, "I have created man and given him free will, but man has willfully become defiant, disobedient, unfaithful, and very wicked and has screwed up BIG TIME in epic proportions, so therefore I will destroy him with the worldwide flood, but I have spared Noah and his family because he is the only one that fears me and does what is right. The reason why God felt regret and grief is because God DID NOT decree the fall of man. If He did, then He would not have felt regret and grief afterwards.

[@wtom04]

+Andy Marciano God does not prepare some vessels of clay for wrath and destruction while others are prepared for glory in an arbitrary and capricious way. Romans 9:21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR? God has made some vessels in DISHONOR because of the person's DISOBEDIENCE. The vessel, which is the person, is partially responsible because of his/her DISOBEDIENCE and lack of cooperation. The vessel has free will and the Potter makes His decision based on the OBEDIENCE of the vessel. Therefore, "Why hast thou made me thus?" is DEPENDENT upon the vessel, and is a dishonest question on the part of the vessel because of the vessel's DISOBEDIENCE and LACK OF COOPERATION. 2 Timothy 2:20-21 - 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to HONOR, and some to DISHONOR. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto HONOR, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. In conclusion, God does NOT shape a lump of clay( a Christian) in an arbitrary or capricious manner as Calvinism falsely teaches. The Christian is partially responsible for the way God shapes him/her because the Christian has free will to obey, disobey, be defiant, and uncooperative. How salvation is attained in the New Testament has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed in Romans 9. Calvinists will of course use Romans 9 as a "proof text" to erroneously teach that this is "how God saves." Jeremiah 18:6-10 - 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, TURN FROM THEIR EVIL, I WILL REPENT OF THE EVIL THAT I THOUGHT TO DO UNTO THEM. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL IN MY SIGHT, THAT IT OBEY NOT MY VOICE, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. It is clear from the context of Jeremiah 18:8 that God would CHANGE HIS MIND about the evil that He was thinking of doing unto them, that is, SHAPE THEM into vessels of DISHONOR. God is clearly saying that if His people stop indulging in evil that He will change His mind and NOT shape them into vessels of DISHONOR. The implication of verse 7 is that God would bring ruin and disaster on a nation or kingdom if they did evil and the implication of verse 9 is that God would BUILD UP a nation or kingdom if they turned from evil and did good. Verse 10 clearly states that God will again change His mind if the people went back to doing evil and disobedience that God will bring punishment upon them by bringing disaster and calamity and shaping them into vessels of DISHONOR. God is the potter and Israel is the clay. If Israel continues in her disobedience and unfaithfulness, God will chasten and shape them into vessels of DISHONOR, but if they are obedient and faithful then God will shape them into vessels of HONOR. This same principle applies to modern day Christians.

[@wtom04]

+Andy Marciano It is clear in Scripture that there were many instances where God's people "talked back" and questioned God asking why He did what He did to them and God answered them through the prophet Jeremiah. The instances in Jeremiah are most revealing. 1) Jeremiah 5:19 - 19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, WHEREFORE DOETH THE LORD OUR GOD ALL THESE THINGS UNTO US? then shalt thou answer them, Like AS YE HAVE FORSAKEN ME, and SERVED STRANGE GODS in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not your's. 2) Jeremiah 16:10-12 - 10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD PRONOUNCED ALL THIS GREAT EVIL AGAINST US? OR WHAT IS OUR INIQUITY? OR WHAT IS OUR SIN THAT WE HAVE COMMITTED AGAINST THE LORD OUR GOD? 11 Then shalt thou say unto them, BECAUSE YOUR FATHERS HAVE FORSAKEN ME, saith the Lord, and HAVE WALKED AFTER OTHER GODS, AND HAVE SERVED THEM, AND HAVE WORSHIPED THEM, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; 12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me: 3) Jeremiah 22:8-9 - 8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS GREAT CITY? 9 Then they shall answer, BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN THE COVENANT OF THE LORD THEIR GOD, AND WORSHIPED OTHER GODS, AND SERVED THEM. 4) Jeremiah 40:2-3 - 2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The Lord thy God HATH PRONOUNCED THIS EVIL UPON THIS PLACE. 3 Now the Lord hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: BECAUSE YE HAVE SINNED AGAINST THE LORD, AND HAVE NOT OBEYED HIS VOICE, THEREFORE THIS THING IS COME UPON YOU. 5) 2 Chronicles 7:21-22 KJV - 21 And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, WHY HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS LAND, AND UNTO THIS HOUSE? 22 And it shall be answered, BECAUSE THEY FORSOOK THE LORD GOD OF THEIR FATHERS, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and LAID HOLD ON OTHER GODS, AND WORSHIPED THEM, AND SERVED THEM: therefore hath he brought all this EVIL upon them. 6) 1 Kings 9:8-9 - 8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, WHY HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS LAND, AND TO THIS HOUSE? 9 And they shall answer, BECAUSE THEY FORSOOK THE LORD THEIR GOD, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have TAKEN HOLD UPON OTHER GODS, and HAVE WORSHIPED THEM, AND SERVED THEM: therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this EVIL. 7) Deuteronomy 29:24-27 - 24 Even all nations shall say, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS LAND? WHAT MEANETH THE HEAT OF THIS GREAT ANGER? 25 Then men shall say, BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN THE COVENANT OF THE LORD GOD OF THEIR FATHERS, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26 For they WENT AND SERVED OTHER GODS, AND WORSHIPED THEM, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:

[@edwinherrera6840]

This is a weird view on how God works. So basically, if it’s God’s will for evil to come, then God is OK with evil? So no one can say anything if someone does something evil because God decreed that

[@primitivaroots]

Out of the mark. You don't have to make up a fake category of thought to put God in just to disguise your misinterpretation of the Holy Scripture.

[@johnrezkalla9643]

how is he misinterpreting scripture?

[@TheB1nary]

Luccas Andrade he didn't make the category up - he is simply stating that we accept the God given category found in the scriptures in order to understand these things.

[@zackcollier87]

this is not biblical. he says its not a contradiction but an antinomy which is defined as a contradiction and also says its a paradox which also is a contradiction. the bible does not state 2 wills of God. the bible says that he does not will for anyone to perish therefore piper is teaching a false doctrine. likewise he teaches that God predestines some for heaven and some for hell which is a false doctrine because the bible teaches that God so loved the world and by world it means the entirety of humanity not just some from each kind of people group. to teach anything other than the true and accurate word of God piper has become a false teacher

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@zackcollier87 God so loved the world yet most of the world continues to reject him. Does this mean that His will that the world be saved is being denied? How many miracles and more has God done to draw people to Himself? Rest assured if God wants to save, nothing stops Him from saving not even one man's rejection of God's truth. I think scriptures say the choosing of who gets salvation is not just God's but it is not just man's either, it is both choosing the other. Just like a marriage. But guess what even if I'm wrong, God knows and I trust Him no matter what the full truth is about election. No matter what..I trust Christ not calvinism or arminianism/traditionalism...or any other system of theological thought

[@jonathanchan7395]

@@prayunceasingly2029How about you read John 6:37 and 6:44, interpret it consistently and then come back and tell me it teaches that salvation is joint effort between God and man. It clearly does not!!

[@angusmcbadger9127]

Calvinism is moronic. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

[@joshuasmall2076]

absolutely terrible blasphemy. I'm ashamed of Pastor John for this one.

[@ichthus-38]

Why do you think that?

[@edmundoftheangles7977]

This is bat shit crazy

[@itielelpida]

Piper is crazy! Calvinism is horrible!

[@wtom04]

If God "predestined" sin, then that would make Him the author of sin and evil thereby exonerating Satan and man. In the Calvinist's mind God "predestined" the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the rape of Nanking China, Pearl Harbor, the 9/11 terrorist attacks. God had foreknowledge of those horrific atrocities, but He did not "foreordain" those atrocities.

[@bobfree1226]

THEN Piper Why would GOD give man a will as ratified in the garden. it makes no sense if God decreed sin. and all else,this is non sense. THE GOD i come to know allowed mans choices an can Say Whosoever. Jesus says when i am Lifted Up i will draw all men to me. He gives Grace and Light to All MEN ,an therefore ratifies Pauls statement that God commands ALL men Everywhere to Repent and turn. God knew certain men would crucify Jesus, but GOD was in no way Responsible, the Jews had the ultimate sin an Romans also, Judas was placed there by GOD because He knew he would do it.God used evil for Good.only a GOD without sin Jesus could save mankind. So God sent his son knowing he would die,but did NOT plan it in a direct action ,that would be doing Evil. God is not the author of any sin. He did NOT decree jesus death but thru mens evilness He used that to allow His overall will to be done.

[@jonathanchan7395]

God did not decree Jesus' death? Have you read Acts 4:27-28??? "to do whatever your hand and your PLAN had PREDESTINED to take place." This is not God just allowing things as if he is completely passive. If God doesn't allow something to happen, it WON'T happen. God can use the sinfulness of Pilate, the Jewish leaders, the soldiers who crucified him and hold them responsible for their intentions. God in using them has a good intention to bring about salvation for his people.

[@bobfree1226]

@@jonathanchan7395 Look God does NOT orchestrate all events, he works thru mans will from cover to cover in the bible.HE allows man freedom, but of course intervenes at times in order for His will to be done!! Yes whatever GOD does Decree will come tom pass,but its very rare in scripture-just follow the israelites in Exodus. GOD intervened only when man opposed Gods over plan.

[@nevbillett7554]

Sin and evil are not the same thing or there wouldn't be two words ,there would only be one word. Where did God ratify man a will in the garden? He gave man free choices in the garden within the boundaries of His own sovereign will , specifically do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This command alone ratifies God's will as sovereign and man's will or choices limited within the confines of God's will. God was in no way responsible for crucifying Jesus you say; Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Agreed God turned man's greatest evil into Loves greatest good. The correct definition of sin is to miss the mark or make a mistake. Man made a mistake in putting Christ to the cross, God did not. God does not make mistakes therefore no one is a mistake for if Hitler was one God would be a sinner. Now before you declare I said Hitler actions were admirable, consider, it is God's will to save all men and God is able to subdue all things to himself Philippians 3:21

[@wtom04]

Calvinists contradict themselves and there is DOUBLE TALK in regards to whether or not God is the author of sin and evil. 1) "The sovereignty of God also teaches THAT GOD IS NOT THE RESPONSIBLE AUTHOR OF EVIL, that man is a free moral agent who is not forced to sin and who is responsible for what he does." - Grover E. Gunn, in his book, "The Doctrines of Grace", 1987, page 14. 2) "GOD IS NEITHER THE AUTHOR OF SIN, NOR SANCTIONS IT (APPROVES IF IT). HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN, THOUGH HE DECREED IT. Those guilty of sinning are responsible." - Jay Adams, in his book, "The Grand Demonstration", page 61, 1991. 3) "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby NEITHER IS GOD THE AUTHOR OF SIN...." - Westminster Confession of Faith, III "Of God's Eternal Decree", item #1 4) Westminster Confession of Faith, V. "Of Providence", Item# 4 bottom paragraph it states...."as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and NOT FROM GOD, WHO, BEING MOST HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS, NEITHER IS NOR CAN BE THE AUTHOR OR APPROVER OF SIN." 5) The London Confession of Faith, Chapter 5, Of Divine Providence, #4 - The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and NOT FROM GOD, WHO, BEING MOST HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS, NEITHER IS NOR CAN BE THE AUTHOR OR APPROVER OF SIN." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUT HOWEVER, you have the below following eminent Calvinist apologists and John Calvin himself making totally contradictory statements that is not in line with what is asserted by Grover E. Gunn and Jay Adams who are both Calvinists as well and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the London Confession of Faith. 1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234 2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88. 3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961). 4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249 5) Edwin Palmer - "IT IS EVEN BIBLICAL TO SAY THAT GOD HAS FOREORDAINED SIN. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82 6) Edwin Palmer - "All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history-whether with inorganic matter, vegetation, animals, man, or angels (both the good and evil ones)-come to pass because God ordained them. EVEN SIN -- THE FALL OF THE DEVIL FROM HEAVEN, THE FALL OF ADAM, AND EVERY EVIL THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED IN ALL OF HISTORY, INCLUDING THE WORST SIN OF ALL, Judas’ betrayal of Christ-is included in the eternal decree of our holy God." - page 120, Edwin Palmer - in his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism". 7) Edwin Palmer - "SIN IS NOT ONLY FOREKNOWN BY GOD, IT IS ALSO FOREORDAINED BY GOD" - On page 122, 1980 in his book, ""The 5 Points of Calvinism". 8) William Shedd - "Nothing comes to pass contrary to his desire. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." In his book, "Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, page 37, 1986. 9) J. Gresham Machen - "All things including even the wicked actions of wicked men and devils -- are brought to pass in accordance with God's eternal purpose." In his book, "Christian View of Man, page 46, 1965. 10) William Shedd - "Sin is one of the "whatsoevers" that have "come to pass", all of which are "ordained". In his book, "Calvinism" Pure and Mixed, page 31, 1986 Finally we have JOHN CALVIN: John Calvin falsely taught that God is the author of sin and evil. 1) "Thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict." From Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" - Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5. 2) "The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, NAY UNLESS IN SO FAR AS HE COMMANDS, THAT THEY ARE NOT ONLY BOUND BY HIS FETTERS BUT ARE EVEN FORCED TO DO HIM SERVICE." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11. 3) "I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have FALLEN BY GOD'S WILL." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4. 4) "The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter, 23, Paragraph 8. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MY comment - The above is what I call DOUBLE TALK where Calvinists say 2 different things out of their mouths contradicting themselves.

[@carisaf7729]

We could also rightly say that Arminians disagree on some of the specifics of the how’s and why’s of their beliefs. Because discussions like this can quickly lead to philosophical debates and no two people may ever agree perfectly on everything. That being said what is it that caused them to try to understand how it appears that God has foreordained sin even though He is not the author of it? It would have to be all of the instances that are in scripture that say that God planned a certain thing that we would surely call evil. The biggest one of course would be the cross, and I do not know how anyone could question whether or not that was the greatest evil to ever happen. But a simple example is the story of David numbering the children of Israel and then being punished for it. 2 Samuel says that God incited David to do this while Chronicles says that Satan did it. Well we know the Bible does not contradict it self so it must be that as with the case of Job that God either allowed Satan to do it or told him to do it but either way because God is sovereign he took the credit for it himself when he had the author of 2 Samuel say that He incited David to go do the very thing that He would turn around and punish him for doing. We with our finite minds will never be able to fully understand everything now, but it can drive us deeper into the Word when we take a moment to try to answer these hard questions and understand that even the greatest theologians won’t agree perfectly but that doesn’t make their entire doctrine wrong.

[@vince6264]

Thanks for these references. Through it, I became more sure about predestination...

[@edwinherrera6840]

This was all too cringe for me

[@ikonstudents]

It's too bad he such an AMAZING preacher, because his theology is childish and misinformed

[@TheB1nary]

ikonstudents pot calling kettle I think. Only a childish person would respond to the points he made by simply passing them off as childish. See how it works?

[@markchavez738]

How would you answer the question?

[@HardeepHayre]

It's actually pretty simple. God uses sin but he doesn't cause it 👀... Big difference. This is a terrible teaching and it contradicts much of the Bible and also the character of God.​@@markchavez738

[@wtom04]

If God deliberately "predestined" sin and evil, then He would not have expressed regret and grief in Genesis 6:6. Genesis 6:6KJV - And it REPENTED the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM at his heart. If you create something and then INTENTIONALLY engineer it for failure, then you shouldn't be feeling regret and grief afterwards. After all, you engineered it for FAILURE. If God created man and then INTENTIONALLY decreed his fall, then it makes no logical sense for God to feel regret and grief afterwards. Hence, the errant belief that God decreed the fall of man is debunked.

[@grapejuicejones7906]

What? No.