Does Sburb Need Doomed Timelines? [Homestuck Theory]

[@-kenik9629]

This is basically what I got out of the mass Sburb release, and fedoraFreak. It is also supported by the minimum team comp for a winning session. A space player is needed to ensure the prize for victory, but a time player is needed to ensure the prize of entry. In essence yes, your logic is sound and this makes sense.

[@mr.gameandtime8432]

I remember doc scratch saying something about Time players increase the chance to win since they're able to use their powers to stay on track for winning the game and getting their ending they want.

[@theidiotsfromplanetzognoid3637]

@@mr.gameandtime8432 iirc he said that a time player was needed but didn't specify why

[@morgankasper5227]

@@theidiotsfromplanetzognoid3637 no not needed just incresses odds of winning

[@jackdiddles4304]

@@morgankasper5227 aren't time players necessary to correctly finish the frog breeding tho? this does make sense as the frog breeding is said (or at least implied) to take a really long time, beyond the allowed time of a normal session. This would necessitate the use of time travel, thus a hero of time is necessary. While the beta trolls DID manage to breed a frog, they had to rush through the final stages due to the reckoning . As this produced a frog with an important genetic sequence missing, it seems that breeding a viable genesis frog is impossible without a space AND a time player.

[@calciumman5545]

@@jackdiddles4304 I thought that only a knight and a space player were necessary to succesfully frog breed. Both Kanaya and jade were helped and served by knights while they were frog breeding. Idk

[@somegirl4260]

As someone who's done many a sburb tabletop session in my day, the idea of an "Unimportant" session with no real timeloops has been one explored many a time.

[@jessamynroguski9649]

How do you do a sburb tabletop session? Please teach me your ways, cos I would love to try it with my friends!

[@somegirl4260]

There are several rulesets out there that can do the trick, RPGstuck and SKRUB are some of the bigger names.

[@LizardWizard444]

​@@jessamynroguski9649 latest I've tried is table stuck

[@xenathcytrin202]

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. The session we see in homestuck is, according to this theory, exceptionally abnormal in the sheer abundance of doomed timelines. This abnormality likely comes from the fact that it is in practice three seperate sessions fused together in a mismash web of convoluted conditions for it's own existance. The beta kids session required for so many things to happen in the other universe's sessions, and vice versa, all of it ass backwardly leading to the death/creation of LE. A normal session of sburb would be a lot more freeform, unless of course it too got tangled up in some crazy shenanigans adding their own conditions. Actually, now that i consider it it makes sense that blood is right next to doom. It seems that conditions and connections are what inevitably lead to doomed timelines by their inability to be broken.

[@frmCast]

I feel like the idea of "doomed" timelines is entirely a product of english's influence on the game/story. the comic makes it clear that the notion of the alpha timeline is the one that ensures caliborn exists and becomes english, and is only the "alpha timeline" by the will of the lord of time. in a natural game, i feel time would flow more organically, with less regimentation. it'd function kind of like a clutch of frog eggs, with most but not all actually bearing fruit. in this metaphor, the homestuck timeline is like a lab setting where you captured a frog, treated it with chemicals, then took a single egg from the clutch and grew it in a separate container to see what'd happen to it, sort of supernaturally forcing it to hatch and mature (no surprise, that frog would probably have some sort of defect like the human universe)

[@arturoreyescortez2476]

The sad thing is that Ultimate Dirk follows this method, and he even said he likes the idea of intelligent design.

[@lordbuss]

Doom timelines still exist without his influence, they are just more rare and you have more freedom. Not everything is possible, but more is possible. It's like when a war ends - people still die, but they die less, and not fighting still saves lives.

[@frmCast]

@@lordbuss i don't think that's the same thing. doomed timelines are described as timelines where, because they do not lead to english coming into existence, they are systematically purged from reality. it's a larger concept than just "everyone dies", it's more "time itself slowly ceases to be if this path is taken" which i don't actually think would happen if english wasn't doing it, as is heavily implied to be the case i like to think of it not as "a timeline where everyone is doomed" but rather "a timeline which is doomed" as if time itself is what is slated to die, regardless of who's in it.

[@lordbuss]

@@frmCast I know, the death was a metaphor. I didn't say that what doomed timelines do is literally killing people.

[@petrosthegoober]

spot on I think of Lord English being the "Lord of Time" simply gives him control of timelines, almost as powerful as literal authorial command. The selfish little kid he is only keeps one timeline to himself and discards the rest.

[@CreatrixTiara]

This kinda reminds me of a story idea I've had bouncing around for a while, about a Sburb session that seems typical at first. A group of 12 come together to play, they all have distinct personalities, different classpects, there's a Mage of Hope here and a Seer of Life there etc etc But then at one point they all get together and they realise they are all literally the same person. No, it's not the same person who made different choices and sparked off alternate timelines. Literally the same person, with the same timeline, the same history. What makes them different is the way they _interpret_ their life. For instance, one day this MetaPlayer helps an old woman cross the street. The Seer of Life remembers that they had this odd sensation that the woman will definitely be hit by a car unless they help move her across. The Mage of Hope remembers that they understood that this old woman needed someone to be nice to her that day and they decided to be that ray of hope. What more likely happened is that the MetaPlayer held both (and more) of these thoughts, all of which influenced their decision to help that old woman. Indeed, they could map out every classpect combination to every facet of their life, depending on what they wanted to prioritize about that moment, how they want to understand what happened. The stories they tell themselves.

[@malagrug4326]

i’d read the shit out of that story if you were to publish it somewhere like MSPFA or something

[@andisadoily1935]

Yes

[@cookiebombcasualemail5284]

@@andisadoily1935 H3LL Y3S

[@paradoxicaloutcome1007]

But how do a group of players who are literally the same person that lived in the same exact way actually create a session together? Do they use a program that made them contact alternate timelines without knowing it? How do they not notice this before playing the game? How long have all of them been talking to 11 duplicates of themselves with the same life without ever noting the similarities (Do they just never bring up any personal details for some reason)? How do they not notice that all of them live in the exact same house the moment they actually connect into the Server / Client chain and see their client's house?

[@katherineparnell9461]

@@cookiebombcasualemail5284 HELL FUCKING YES

[@cellularconsciousness2781]

the "universal biology" angle is very interesting to me. on the one hand, yes, your idea makes a lot of sense. on the other hand, what if Sburb *isnt* the only universe creating mechanism out there? what if theres a bunch of different "cosmic organisms" out there that all have different reproduction methods? maybe sburb really *does* have a strict alpha timeline every time, with the Scratch being its only method of multiplying, but this has some kind of energy preservation/evolutionary boon attached to it? and maybe theres other universe spawning mechanisms that have a more r-seleciton style reproduciton method where they just fire off millions of timelines and hope some succeed?

[@MrMortull]

Are you suggesting that there are somehow "species" of universes, against which Homestuck's lineage universes is competing? I can't imagine Sburb being a very successful strategy if there are other families of universes doing things in a more structured and sensible way...

[@HiddenDragon555]

How are these universes interacting with each other? This feels a bit like fish trying to determine what life on land is like, we don't have context for how this would work.

[@cellularconsciousness2781]

@@HiddenDragon555 i mean yeah but were already in the land of speculation here. Idk why u gotta shoot down my speculation specifically

[@pkphyre8920]

This gets into the Epilogues and HS^2 stuff, but my take is that the "Alpha Timeline" as a concept was always something that only existed because of Lord English's influence over the story. IIRC correctly, at one point Doc Scratch says something to the effect of the Alpha Timeline best being defined as the timeline that contains both his creation and his death, and to me, it makes sense to extrapolate that out to LE too. Homestuck is essentially the story of how LE manipulates his own existence into being, and from that perspective, it would make sense for him to use his Lord of Time powers to essentially fade out of existence any timeline where that goal isn't being furthered. It would also give more context to the post-credits official media treating the Meat and Candy timelines as roughly equally important. In a reality that is post-LE (or at least, outside his range of influence), there isn't strictly a prime timeline that supersedes all others.

[@HiddenDragon555]

So Dirk is recreating something similar to LE's scheme (continuing canon by becoming the big bad) while not realizing that it's no longer necessary.

[@pkphyre8920]

@@HiddenDragon555 that's more or less my going theory right now.

[@pkphyre8920]

@@HiddenDragon555 As a side note, that reading ties pretty well into how I interpret the differences between the Lord and Muses classes, namely that Lords manipulate text while Muse manipulate subtext. Caliborn makes the story *literally* all about him, but no would when asked would think to summarize Homestuck as "A story about how it's big bad comes into existence". All of the events of it are in service to reaching that point, but Homestuck is *actually* much more about character dynamics and relationships, which is much more in line with the kind of story Alt!Calliope would be interested in telling.

[@HiddenDragon555]

@@pkphyre8920 That's an interesting take, interestingly it seems to imply that Muses are more significant then Lords, in that the subtext of a story is where the most interesting stuff is happening. Thought maybe that's just my biases speaking.

[@CuantumQ]

@@HiddenDragon555 That is not Dirk's goal. Dirk's goal in the Epilogues always had to do with canonicity, not whether he was in a Doomed Timeline. Dirk is meta-narratively aware of canon due to his specific Ultimate Self realization and he knows that Meat is a "more canon" timeline than Candy is. The Epilogues are Dubiously Canon, not noncanon, and since Meat John goes back to deal with Lord English it is More Canon than Candy. This is less to do with how timelines and SBURB works and more so how Homestuck as a story works. Homestuck as a story was all about Lord English causing his own creation and destruction, so since Meat contributes to that story directly it is more canon than Candy which gets its even smaller morsel of Canonicity from being connected to Meat. Dirk in Homestuck^2 hopes that his game of SBURB will hopefully be a cause for more canon events to occur which will hopefully prevent him and his friends from being distorted by being noncanon

[@fishboyliam]

I've had the same theory for a while now! The alpha timeline reminds me of Caliborn's idea of the alpha male; while he views the alpha male (and timeline) as the only one worth pursuing, we can all agree that despite being omnipresent, he was quite narrow minded.

[@Kennywats]

The aspect of Doom is a strange one. Many people consider the doomed to be the world sufferers which is in a case true. That for all their talents, and gifts, they are Doomed. But there is more to Doom then that. Firstly Dooms relationship with Time. If Time is a river flowing in a direction then Doom would be the banks of that river. Both guiding and being shaped by the course of time. And yet not matter how hard or powerfully Time may flow, there is a limit to how much Doom can be pushed. After all Time much like a river will generally go for the path of least resistance. Then there is Dooms relationship with Life. As we know the Lifebound have a great deal of money and influence. Much like the Rich do. But much of that money and influence comes off the back of those that might be seen as Doombound. Common people who work every day in a simple job for an employer. Would we consider these people to be doomed just because they don't get anywhere in life? Does that invalidate their lives, lessen it or cheapen it? Yet for all the power this employer has, it is built on the consent of the worker. And in the end. Which is happier? A common person who sates themselves with the simple things in life, and hopes for more? Or the Rich person who only hordes their power and wealth, growing fearful of falling as they seek more and more ways to distract themselves? Lastly there is the Programming angle. As we all know Sburb is a game so it would make sense that Doom would play a part here too. In programming it is common to build upon failure. Prototypes are developed and discarded. Lines of code are written and deleted but also reused. But the process of all those failures are used as a guide to success. Even players rarely finish a game without seeing failure in some form or another. And yet these failures shape the eventual victory. After all what is worth more? A victory that was handed to you? Or one that your strive for by overcoming the odds? If the Doombound have it so bad.... then why did both Sollux and Mituna are shown to have the most stable relationships?

[@lordbuss]

Doom is the amount on limitations that stop you from doing what you want. Life is the power to do what you want. You can potentially be very limited and still happy, but the fewer limitations you have, the more options you have to be happy. Also, people don't read BKEW enough. BKEW is a far better source of understanding aspects than the extended zodiac:bladekindeyewear.tumblr.com/post/23881289939/aspect-duality-theory

[@ryangunnison38]

At that point it gets so tricky because Homestuck mechanics seem so intrinsically tied to the narrative! But yeah having doomed timelines helps give contrast to the goals and ideals of success. Sburb is harsh on those that are not fit, its possible to get eradicated while playing the first few minutes of the game if not to continue on unknowingly in failed or impossible session, and then it requires a group of individuals that compliment each other very well and who survive outside influence to develop as people and become worthy of creating a new universe based in part off of their qualities

[@apollosgrief4920]

good hot take, I'd love to see a fan adventure that takes this concept to its extreme. I've always been interested in a story in which characters play an unaltered/unbroken version of sburb.

[@apollosgrief4920]

additionally, I think this thematically works if sburb is supposed to be read as a metaphor for growing up, an obviously major theme in homestuck. after the Reckoning in an unaltered session, it truly is up to the good will, responsibility, and teamwork of all players to create a new universe (or I guess in this context near-infinite new universes)

[@nullifytheshark2423]

This is a really interesting theory and it makes sense overall. My understanding of HS was that the sessions we see as the readers are not your “average” sessions. Everything that happens in them isn’t Sburb’s general norm and that’s because of LE. But without LE, what does it look like? This video pretty much answers that question completely. Very interesting and fun.

[@palladianaltruist8047]

Hey this basically got confirmed in Homestuck: Beyond Canon’s December 2023 update

[@-K_J-]

I've honestly thought about this before, though I only told it to like, one person and you generally explain it on a much better level. It was mostly me trying to reason with being able to make characters with traits that wouldn't be possible/allowed on alternia, trying to turn "all fan content is canon because it's doomed" to "all fan content is no longer inherently doomed"

[@puddel9079]

TL;DR: Doomed Timelines are necessary to facilitate the English Alpha, and True (meat/candy) Alpha timelines. Terezi and Rose explain some of this to Dave who seems more interested in coffee, rap, being snarky, and accidentally being the ambassador to his mom. With each instance of a timeline created ad infinitum, it stands to reason that every timeline leads into the next. Whether facilitating paradoxes, scratched sessions, or even delivering each player to their respective worlds, the timelines are being sifted through to find the English and True Alpha timelines. This gets explained in moderate detail (in regards to timelines and choices) by Terezi to Dave over whether he was gonna stab a doomed self, and when Rose was talking about the void session they were heading to, prior to "Ballet of the Dancestors."

[@chrysalismacosmist165]

I'm waiting for sburb to become a thing so I can finally get my ass crushed by a meteor

[@chickensoup1312]

To be fair, when it comes to hs, overthinking is a given

[@glitchcanon]

The usefulness of a doomed timeline is dependant on the time player (or player with a time travel device) present. The answer to the question in the title would be "Not necessarily", as the multitimelineal theory you proposed *does* make sense! Under this new light, I could say Doomed Timelines are just another way the game can manipulate it's outcome, to fix a failure by sending said failure back as a vaccine that strengthens the chance of the game being completed.

[@mist1675]

i was like "man i'm done with homestuck" and this still caught my attention lol. this is a really cool idea!

[@polaag91]

Oh man you put it into words. I've this idea but no way to express it

[@FaeriePrince]

I actually fully support this theory and even had some semblance of it in my mind before watching this video. It also kind of reminds me of the conversation Roxy and Callie had on page 7694 (edit: to clarify, this is page 7694 of homestuck proper) , about how among the different instances of a person, none is better than the other.

[@basilisk5855]

Hey uhhh, I don’t know if this is intended or not but this video hasn’t been released publicly but is still on the playlist. Don’t know if this vid is supposed to only be for patrons but I thought I should mention this.

[@Kindhamster]

This published yesterday according to my youtube. Methinks you either caught a Patreon early release or she just uploads em in advance.

[@antheosenigma]

Matthew Connelly *he/they

[@darkseraph2009]

*Listens intently* *Doctor comes on* *starts sobbing too much to listen*

[@ZeronFXL]

The only issue I have with this theory is that it doesn't leave a lot of space for null sessions, which according to Rose are supposedly overwhelmingly common when it comes to sburb sessions. I think that the theory has more credence over sessions that are outside of the influence of Lord English, whose powers created the concept of an Alpha Timeline in the first place. Perhaps in these sessions, the difference between the alpha and doomed timelines would instead be dichotomized by barren (null), wherein the sequence of events are such that it does not contribute constructively to the new universe, or fruitful, where they do.

[@cassidyarnold505]

i guess null sessions happen when people fqail

[@j.v.echobear3647]

Loved this video, probably the best musings of the timeline system in homestuck I've seen. I'll try to make my notes not go on too long as I have plenty of them myself about 'alpha timelines' and other things you covered. Lord English 100% messed with the structure of the timeline, maybe I haven't been around enough conversations on the topic but you're the first person I've seen brought it up. I've considered the ENTIRE alpha/doomed timeline system could even be a byproduct of him trying to assure his eventual creation, and that the actual system of timeline paradox whatever could be vastly different without him. At the very least it seems implied that the beforus/alternia order of planets was switched around because of his existence. Even with Lord English around and controlling the timelines the players were able to influence the alpha timeline and push against fate to an extent that seems to have prevented the actual fight that created Lord English from happening? So even the most tightly controlled and forced alpha timeline seems to still be able to result in a completely paradoxical result and beings with no creation to still be created. I headcanon that without a Lord English figure that an alpha timeline for a session would only require a success state, the genesis frog being created. Anything else after that point is totally free.... or gets hooked into another session's alpha timeline (as with the trolls finishing their session's alpha and getting connected to the beta kid's session's alpha timeline) though it's possible that even this could be split into every session's version of the timeline. Post Entry Earth for a game like Sburb makes a lot of sense if there's individual alpha timelines, though your theory of there being even more possible timelines ontop of that would fit and be even more free than mine. I also personally think that every first version of sburb on a planet is wide spread (to maximize sessions and genesis frog offspring) and since we know almost nothing about beforus Sgrub it's possible they had a beta-earth like situation of a wide spread distribution, and that paradox space ensures such an event on every planet's first release of the game. It's only scratched versions of sessions that don't require wide-spread distribution of sburb, since the other sessions are still safe in the medium it only needs to reset things for that one group of players. While this doesn't prevent other sessions from starting on alternia and alpha-earth... even if other games did get played it was probably a lot less than beforus and beta considering the circumstances.

[@lordbuss]

The main requirement of the alpha timeline is not wining or creating a universe. It's for the timeline to be consistent with itself and without paradoxes. When something already happened but can't happen the timeline is doomed.

[@athenawheatley1032]

It would be interesting to experience the Ultimate Self after playing a vanilla SBURB game. Would you have to keep track of all your branching selves on each timeline?

[@armandom132]

I think you might be right In the Homestuck sburb sessions there couldn't be any other "alpha timelines" because there's only one timeline where Lord English is created and so, only one coherent timeline

[@raulendymion9917]

I always wondered if Sburb was implied to be played only within what's shown in Homestuck's narrative: like are there other species out there born in other sessions that play the game? I have a feeling however the lore behind Cherubs gets explained will help settle this question.

[@mr.gameandtime8432]

Basically Doomed timelines and void sessions are bad endings for the game.

[@hsd6716]

wait, if this is a theory on sburb, would that make it a... GAME THEORY

[@lordbuss]

Is your comment a game theory theory?

[@jackdiddles4304]

i both hate and love this comment at the same time

[@hsd6716]

@@jackdiddles4304 lol thanks

[@zephyr4254]

Wow, this really helps me sort out what's happening in the fansession I'm working on. Thanks!

[@deltabrassica6650]

oh i absolutely love this theory? basically “what if sburb was more egalitarian”! so cool

[@sofivear]

I think the point about "doomed" timelines being a byproduct of LE's dominion over the story and not an intrinsic quality to every timeline that is not the alpha for ANY sburb session is a good one, we have no other session unconnected to the ones is Homestuck to compare but I think it makes a lot of sense!!

[@invisibleimaginaryfriend6449]

A frog doesnt lay thousands of eggs waiting for just one to make it I absolutely love this angle!

[@incorporealnuance]

I always assumed that the alpha timeline was essentially analogous to how particles in superposition collapse into a single state when interacted with, potentially even interacting with themselves (ala double slit experiment)

[@lordbuss]

Basically, yes.

[@bardofvoid174]

Some notes: 1. If it's true that all these timelines in the homestuck narrative was started by a spontaneous appearance of SBURB/SGRUB/etc, this could also mean that the universe growth is even *more* due to the fact that it can pop up in random universes not even directly created or related to another universe in the first place. 2. In short, that means this means only the traits, personality, character growth, and powers that were shown in homestuck of the classpects we know and love weren't under any ideal timeline sort of way, it's only in the "this is how all the classpects from multiple universes get together to create an evil Lord of Time Cherub in the drive of temporal self-preservation" kind of way, so I think it's safe to say that the way we've been present classpects is somewhat biased/tilted/looking through tinted glass/however you'd like to put it- and I mean, I know we already probably knew that on some level, what with acknowledging the existence of doomed timelines/non-homestuck-alpha-timelines in the first place, but still- (Okay maybe that wasn't very short but- XP) 3. Since by this speculation, by default, the session is only doomed by the reasons you gave before, but Lord English managed to alter then to be much more strict, that means the players in the session can potentially end up doing the same for themselves/be surprisingly easily in a similar scenario (even of it was a Lord of Time that did it-) Though... I suppose that's kinda covered by you saying "If a time player gets especially reckless with their time powers or something", since it'd usually be a time player which that'd likely be the case of (though not always), so, good job on that one ^^; Edits: Some edits so it didn't basically cut out the entirety of #2, and generally polishing it up

[@thechaotimagnet]

All I was thinking during this video was that this theory helps support a sburb table top RPG.

[@jakedineen3859]

Not even the sending the frog temple back would matter, or even happen, considering that there is only one frog temple on Earth(coming from the kids session), meaning no other sessions sent back the frog temple. Exiles probably wouldn’t have been sent back from other Earth Sburb sessions either, as the Earth clearly isn’t teeming with Exiles from other session (i have legitemately no idea if i’m massively wrong or not please tell me if i am)

[@BowJish44]

I agree, if SBURB exists as a form of multi-universal reproductive system for Paradox Space, whose ultimate goal is to ensure both that it exists and that at least once potential timeline from each session produces a new timeline and universe, even if through the failsafe of the Scratch mechanic, to ensure that Paradox Space is never in decline of winning realities such that it continues to go forward forever without actually finishing, I can only see what we see via the Alpha Timeline as being direct warping and manipulation from the big Bastard Man-Child himself, Lord English. As long as the base traits of a "normal" game session prove to make itself possible to exist, even if it exists solely to ultimately fail in all ways except through a potential Scratch reset, I see no reason that SBURB wouldn't want as many viable, differing timelines that can succeed as possible to make it through as opposed to exactly 1 which wouldn't be a net gain in favour of Paradox Space expanding. And as far as internal session success, iirc the only things absolutely needed to make an average session (that doesn't include the whole Caliborn/Calliope session situation or is a session like the Alpha humans that need an external session to come to and help them become) truly viable is at least one form of space player whose denizen is Echidna who can breed frogs and has a volcano or similar geological structure to incubate the final Frog, (maybe?) somebody else with a method via their own planet to kickstart frog breeding for said other player, such as a time player like Dave with Hephestus and his forge, and at least one player for both Prospit and Derse respectively. Also a form or way to activate a universal Scratch on their session if needed, which may require a Time Player. As long as those conditions are met point blank when a session is created, any timeline where this continues to be still true should at least have the potential to give off a new universe. From there any potential timeline need only have all players enter the session, prototype their kernelsprite at least once, fully mature their battlefield, beat the Black King and potentially Queen before the battlefield is destroyed and made unviable, then finally breed and fully nourish the final frog in some manner that allows it to eventually travel into the Battlefield's core so it can then mature and grow into its final, adult form that contains the Ultimate Prize of a new Universe.

[@riseofevillink]

Personally I think the alpha timeline only exists in this case because lord english himself is either consciously or unconsciously deleting all other timelines that don't contribute to his existence. By him probably being the strongest time player with in his section of paradox space and well immortal it makes since that he could dictate what could and couldn't happen with in and throughout time. Therefore in my own head cannon I think it might be possible that other areas of paradox space might have completely different "rules" on how certain aspects, time included, work depending on which players are influencing there corner of the multiverse.

[@keenanmckenzie919]

I think doomed timelines are a still possible in an Outer English session. From a game design perspective any doom timeline is a game over or bad end in the eyes of time players that have means similar to save states with their means of time travel or starting a new game with the scratch.

[@lordbuss]

Great video, i completely agree, surprisingly. Though i think you are wrong in conflating the rules of Sburb with the rules of Paradox Space itself. Sburb is essential for the existence of PS, and the powers that use Sburb are the largest powers in PS, but i am pretty sure they still don't decide what the rules are. It's a little like Zoroastrian mythology, where there are equal forces of good and evil, but both exist in framework in the bigger, even more powerful and completely neutral power - time. Which also means Homestuck can be viewed as a subversion of Zoroastrian mythology, a "what if", where suddenly time is controlled by an external individual that cheated, and who is now more powerful that both the original dualistic forces.

[@eugeniabukhman8533]

You are definitely onto something, in my opinion!

[@paradoxicaloutcome1007]

My thinking on the matter is that there is ONE group of players that are required to play the game according to a strict Alpha Timeline; the session made up of paradox clones. These players were created by SBURB so that it can guarantee the ensured arrival of the Frog Temple, the First Guardian and the planet-destroying meteors. Apart from that, every session made up of naturally-born players are a lot more free in their decision making. At the very least, their "Alpha Timelines" are created by their own shenanigans, not by cosmic obligations. You know, stuff like time loops made by Time players having to be fulfilled, exiles contracting them meaning they need to exile some folks, Time Capsule deliveries... Even then, it is not a strict Alpha Timeline, but just a system that means certain branches that produce paradoxical results are annihilated from the chain of possibilities. For example, if a timeline diverges before a time loop's effect on the past happens, in such a way that the Time player will not create the loop in the future, then instead of a doomed timeline happening, the time loop's effect on the past just doesn't trigger on that branch of the Timeline. However, the moment the Time loop affects the past, all the branches that don't result in the Time player fulfilling the loop are cut off.

[@tomokihigurashi9399]

I think that you are absolutely correct and the Alpha timeline is not normally how it would work i believe it only exists due to the nature of their ultimate enemy Lord English having a chokehold on the time line making it so that he is was and always will be essentially making anything not ending in the eventuality of his existence doomed amd that the restrictions of an alpha timeline doesn't exist without lord English. I feel the final enemy shapes the nature of the threat and that if lord English was the lord of anything but time we wouldn't have an alpha timeline.

[@ReturnToMonke83]

I kept asking questions about the grand scheme of things, and the potentiality of timelines for a while too! I'm glad you made this video because it helped me focus the questions a lot better mostly because I wasn't sure exactly what I was looking into when I tried researching it. Like, how would I when a lot of times I get roadblocked by "shenanigans"!?

[@the314Qwerty]

I don't think the absence of LE guarantees an exponential growth in the number of timelines. The Homestuck universe is built out of ideas, so we don't know whether quantum mechanics applies. This means the only thing we know for sure determines the branching of timelines is the decisions the players make; their will, so to speak. That being said, I find it interesting that light, the homestuck equivalent of photons, is so closely related to the notion of chance. Maybe quantum mechanics is a concept that applies?

[@lordbuss]

Not the number of timelines, the number of potential ways one timeline could happen.

[@KolaWisp]

BTW optimistic you should play the genus is project. Basically you can actually play a homestuck session in unity.

[@Jake-mg8fp]

please please talk about sburb lore more aaaa i love it

[@qotice]

Nice work, and interesting take!

[@Moonsong227]

What if timelines weren’t necessary at all for a normal session? I’m writing into a fanfic that a couple of players weren’t ecto-made, but chosen outright. Which is to say, the game goes out to the whole planet straight up. What if a super-free form game like this could allow for no time loops, or only time loops that are fulfilled paradox style? Such that the game has one straight timeline? Tbh fanfic aside I think sburb has a lot more possibility than we see when there isn’t someone like LE bullying the session(s). Thought of without the harsh restrictions of homestuck, where Hussite calls the narrative was harsh confining space, sburb is a lot like chill fantasy sandbox games

[@themidnightotaku22]

No it’s not too far-fetched. Sburb is like it’s own looping timeline, someone had to have been playing their own kind of Sburb for Sburb to have been made again to recreate Earth after it’s been destroyed and then-“Oh no I’ve gone cross-eyed.” Doomed Timelines are bound to happen.

[@nightazday7988]

hope that means there's a successful Beforus session

[@msgameandcake628]

From what I recall, the Beforus session was doomed from the start since the players were cloned/born/created in the Alternia session, thus resulting in the Beforus players to have no point of origin unless they were to Scratch. I'm fairly certain this was the "glitch" referred to a few times throughout the comic. Even with this interpretation of doomed timelines, the Beforus players are fundamentally paradoxical, and thus MUST Scratch and, in turn, cease to be.

[@KingOpenReview]

Wait. Does this mean all fan sessions are canon? At least the human ones?

[@a.jwright6336]

Honestly thinking about it it's probably the reason why Hussie was dubious to consider some things Cannon and something's not. So if to say this theory was true, long as it didn't mess with certent parameter is in order to have certain events happen it could have technically happened even if it wasn't in the alpha timeline.

[@enderwalkgang]

@@a.jwright6336 i mean even the works he said were dubiously canon are canon.. Theyre just failed canon, doomed timelines. Timelines in the void. If light is everything that is known is everything that is canon as well? Does this mean void player who specilize in fanfiction are more common then we think?

[@razorblade6219]

I think when it comes to scenarios less complex than Homestuck a doomed timeline is a timeline that either fails to create a new session or fails to eventually cause another session to create one. After all in Homestuck every shown timeline follows this rule, hence even though Caliborne's doesn't cause a session it causes all four other sessions to exist in which two make universes and three lead to the eventual successful universe. Cause in that way a universe that doesn't do that due to some deviation is after said deviation doomed to fail and thus unimportant in the prosperity of reality.

[@TheSuperfan2k]

the tumor is, in fact, a detonator with a clock as we know it ... because after all, they are in a session. a not so regular game with a limited time related to the nature of an adventure,it has a risk, a reward and the amount of stress related to this type of apocaliptyc travels that seems particurally normal in a lot of kids/teenagers fantasy. pressure makes diamonds,folks... just think about it.

[@hhellinn]

I have been thinking about this for a long time too. I agree with most of this. The thing I do not agree with is that in beta earth, other sburbs sessions were created and some of them were a success. Even if they created another session, since they are still in the same multiverse with the main characters, they have to count on the beta kids’ sburb session to succeed. But if we are talking about earth C, then since the characters are out of the loop, multiple timelines would exist. Because there would not be a paradox to destroy said timelines.

[@KingOpenReview]

I've considered the same thing more or less.

[@AramauMeows]

Hey guys I was thinking, what if the code for the server disc was ffffffff, because 00000000 gives you a blank card and a server disc holds the potential for an entire universe

[@johnathanegbert9277]

Doesn't it go 0-9, a-z, A-Z (yes those are seperate), then .!? ? So it would truly be ???????? !

[@horizonanadyomene]

this isn't the right place to recommend a book to you, but i get the feeling you'd like cat valente's Space Opera. "The wormhole eats regret."

[@friedchickenUSA]

so ur pretty much saying. _i_ could play sburb and win.

[@Jack-lo5me]

Hahaha! I didn’t know this video was put up a while ago! Shit, let’s get into this! I’ve been.... “writing” a story about me and my friends. If I ever were to publish this story, which I won’t, I would change their names, but for right now, let’s call us by our Aspects. We have me, A Knight of Time. A Guy who is a Seer or Light. Another guy who is a Thief or Void. And a girl who is the Heir of Space. Don’t fault me and Light for copying Rose and Dave, I knew I was a Knight of Time for a LONG time, and Light was a complete shoe in for a less stubborn Rose. Anyway, in my “story”, I..... I’ll just call me Jack. Jack is a Prospit Dreamer along with Space. Light and Void are Derse Dreamers. Being both a Prospit Dreamer and a Time Bound, by me waking up first, our game can use me to set up the needed parameters for the game to even exist. This is on, like, OUR earth. Like a timeline from our universe where Sburb Exists. No LE, no any of that. It requires my character to be the work horse for the group.... But I have had the idea for a while now of a “What If Everything Goes “Good”.” No permanent deaths. All God Teirs. And even saving the earth through a combination of Time, Space, Light, and Void powers. Pure and utter wish fulfillment. HOWEVER, it’s not like it won’t be hard. To become that strong, even with Jack being able to know what needs to get done to WIN, he still needs to use his own judgement, as well as everyone else does, so rise above just winning, and actually saving the world if they worked hard enough. If I had to give a name for this story.... ContinuousAuryn. Basically just Sburb without any invasive threat to the players.

[@johnathanegbert9277]

The name jack reminds me a bit too much of someone... *flashbacks to literally all the Jack Noirs* ...familiar.

[@Jack-lo5me]

@@johnathanegbert9277 e-Erm… Funny story- Before I ever even read Homestuck, my first Oc with basically Jack Frost from Rise of the Guardians, but with an ice sword. But I never FULLY left it behind, and still, all the characters that are supposed to be the in-universe version of me are named Jack. And I Stole the Striders last name because I share Dave’s Classpect, so, that’s just fun. But I use “Jack Strider” as the name for… EVERY self incert OC. It’s like a multiverse of different Jacks, all in their own fandom or story. It’s pretty cool. Some are insane, others are paragons… the only core similarities are the red eyes, the fluffy dark hair, the name, and the love of weaponry.

[@wolfbeam9169]

Did the alpha timeline end after Homestuck ended? Did everything that needed to happen for it to be a successful timeline happen? Could things have gone better?

[@enderwalkgang]

I mean... Homestuck epilogues and ^2

[@aaaaaaaaam]

this is such a cool theory

[@TimeyWimeyGeek]

Here’s something I’m struggling with: where’s the separation between elements of Sburb and base reality for the characters? Or is there one to begin with?

[@drakath5727]

So in other words Sburb is kinda like Zanza in the fact it wants to keep perpetuating its existence.

[@jessamynroguski9649]

Its very intriguing Also, a question i had during this video; Where did sburb begin? Where did it originate from? The furthest we've ever seen it go back is the species of Feferi's Lusus But did it really start with them?

[@lordbuss]

BKEW had a great theory about the end of Homestuck will be about retroactively creating Paradox Space and Sburb. He was wrong, but the idea still makes sense, and there are reasons to think that would dirk tries to in post canon.

[@jashua2776]

That how i see it too.

[@lurkingleo1068]

doc scratch describes the alpha timeline as a stable time loop which purpose is to create lord english. and doomed timelines are the result of taking an action that would contradict the creation of lord english. so that means without lord english then doomed timelines dont really exist at all

[@lordbuss]

You make the classic mistake - give more meaning to Scratch's words than they really have, even though they are technically true. The alpha timeline is a stable loop. Lord English made the stable loop create him. Without him, the stable loop still exists, but creates other things.

[@369destroyer]

Here's something, on Beta Earth you said a large chunk of humanity may have been saved, however then I remembered Gamebro, which unfairly have the game a bad review, which I'd think would result in less sessions due to people not playing the game in time. But then why would this happen? Gamebro, Bro, the sexist language and the dudebro language. What if Gamebro was made by Beta Dirk, and the review was intentionally unfairly negative to influence less people to play, due to Lil Cal's influence. Maybe it's a stretch, but it's an interesting thought if you ask me.

[@lordbuss]

People don't really care about Gamebro. It's a joke. But yes, thematically, the Gamebro "archetype" is Bro Strider/Lord English. Read the comments here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZCQfYOGma14r6M Even funnier considering that the song was written before anything was known about Lord English.

[@perro692]

I would think a lot of other humans that got into the game either ended up on void sessions and stuff, like it seens you need both a space and knight player to get it done, and time players alse seen to be really needed but maybe this is not as much the case without english's influence

[@withercat]

*waves a hand in the air* id argue a doomed timeline is not a fixed thing either! there has to have been a timeline that existed before the kids even existed, the troll timeline, and then whatever timeline came before that, then whatever timeline came before THAT, any session done earlier than the most recent timeline of sburb can be completely successful, and then get doomed later on by the actions of players in the next session, in fact it has to be a not doomed timeline to make it that far, every doomed timeline we see was born from a practically infinite amount of time of not being doomed!

[@lordbuss]

A timeline can't become doomed after it happens. I think you are talking about universes and sessions. Every session exists in many timelines, most of them are doomed. The session in the alpha timeline creates a universe (or not). The trolls' session wasn't successful but then became doomed.

[@jamlog1481]

yoooooo new video

[@fossfeen]

as you're now part of the "homestuck team" don't you have access to talk to andrew hussie about these kinds of things? also, could your ideas about this not be introduced into the canon? how much influence or sharing of ideas happens within this team? i've followed your video essays for a while now and really enjoy your work. it's interesting to me that one of the community's most well known theorists is now part of a team creating an extension of the work they became known for theorizing about.

[@enderwalkgang]

Yeah. Personally it kinda weirds me out. Like good for him. But the fear that a fan might sway into their potential biased misunderstanding of what they're working with IS there. However i heard they left? Due to backlash of things on homestuck epilogues and h^2? Dont quote me on that. I do wonder how involved they are on certain topics and meta though. I dont see h^2 as a good rep of homestuck personally and did og hs dirty on a lot of points though. However there could be a misunderstanding and hussi is writting most of h2

[@DoctorTopper]

Nice idea. But I thought the purpose of sburb was to decide the war on skaia until the stalemate ends. If it creates nonlinear timelines with multiple endings, then the stalemate might end Good AND Evil, which ISN'T good. Sounds against the rules.

[@AramauMeows]

@DoctorTopper I don’t think you get it. If it created a near infinite number of timelines, then there’s no way all of them are successful. Besides, that _isn’t_ sburbs purpose. It’s purpose is to create another universe. If you sneak the genesis frog into skaia without beating the black king, I’m pretty sure he’d die by merit of *standing on an EXPLODING PLANET.* Besides, I’m pretty sure a newly created universe can take the brunt of ~200,000+ meteors.

[@0whatman]

I agree with u on this just that lol

[@gretchling5012]

perhaps the idea of the alpha timeline present in homestuck is a manifestation of lord english's will - he's very much so a personification of toxic masculinity, which certainly aligns with the ideal of the "alpha male" or "top dog," or even the concept of an objective truth to reality rather than just a variety of perspectives. in game sessions with someone else in lord english's position - a different conductor, if you will - we might not see the concept of an alpha timeline. that conductor might not be a Lord of Time and, thusly, might impose their will on objective reality in the form of a different aspect. perhaps a light-based conductor would create a kind of Alpha Idea that's central to that game's plot, or a rage-based conductor an Original Sin.

[@johnathanegbert9277]

A Breath-based conductor may not even _have_ an Alpha Timeline, due to Breath's symbolism of freedom.

[@arturoreyescortez2476]

I like this theory since it allows free will and the narrative to work together. The doomed timelines seem like the timelines were everyone failed, but let's consider these events: Davesprite is a Dave that originated from a doomed timeline and he contributed to the success of the heroes; Vriska states that Bec Noir was going to ascend anyway, so she took the chance to be the one that made him ascend as a way to become important in the story; even after the retcon, all the ghosts of the original story still exist and Vriska's actions still helped give John the power to fight Lord English's narrative control; the Calliope that became God Tier comes from a doomed timeline, but she is the one that created the black hole that destroyed the Green Sun, and she is still messing with current events in the Epilogues and Homestuck 2. Destiny continues, but the choices of the characters do matter.

[@grantftb]

love the vid

[@tidecovill6718]

Mind players straight up don’t make sense in YKW alpha timeline. Like, half of all high-level mind powers are gonna be sorta irrelevant

[@jordanthomas7194]

Ykw?

[@johncosco2348]

I agree

[@tea_funz]

Can i sub your video to spanish? I sub the first John's video like one week later it was updated so if you can check it, it would be awesome ;)

[@melancholymaids3032]

I wonder if the reason the beta universe didn’t bear fruit, was because they were beta, and not alpha.

[@lordbuss]

Alpha was even worse.

[@twazzines]

The doomed

[@Buh526]

Are ya coding son?