Does the Trinity Matter?

[@NickSandt]

I was a trinitarian for 24 years. I converted to unitarianism because I feel it’s closer to what the Bible really teaches, no offense to any trinitarian brothers & sisters. I didn’t convert because I didn’t understand the Trinity, I feel that I understand it as much as any other trinitarian. But now I feel that “In the beginning was the Word” is proclaiming that Jesus had a beginning, this is the time that passage is referring to, the beginning of Jesus. Jesus or the Word had a beginning because he’s also called the Son, and a son is *always* produced from one who came before, i.e. a father. There was a time before you became manifest when you were simply a part of your father. In the beginning there was you, and you were with your father, and you _were_ your father (this is true because you share the same traits) and this was before you became manifest in the flesh or born. Jesus is “God” only in the sense that he was born of God. He’s the complete image of God, Adam “reborn” if you will. Jesus doesn’t have to be identical to God to do the works he did and he doesn’t have to be identical to God to be the Christ so that whoever believes him to be Christ and Lord is born again i.e. an eternal citizen of the kingdom

[@JoshuaMSOG7]

How would you explain 1 John 5:7?

[@D3vilUS]

"7 For there are three that testify: 8 [h]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are [i]in agreement." It's a stretch to say this proves trinity, that concept wasn't even a thing when John was written.

[@JoshuaMSOG7]

@@D3vilUS Ok can you explain both verses? I can… but that was a dodge, instead of answering you quoted another verse which I can explain BOTH. But I want a Unitarian to try to explain it.

[@luis7961]

@@JoshuaMSOG7 Did you totally ignore where it says that he (Jesus) is The SON of God over and over again in the same passage? So by his baptism in Water, By his Blood on the Cross. And by the Holy Spirit that descended on him like dove. This testify that he is who he claimed to be. The Son of God. The Messiah. And dont skip the rest of the chapter. Its a beautiful chapter, 1 John 5. God bless you

[@umeproductions7060]

@@JoshuaMSOG7 read the Johannine comma controversy and how the second half of that verse is interpolation by the scribes of Latin texts and newer copies of manuscripts and not in the oldest ones we have today. Scholars know this and that’s why it’s not included in almost any modern Bible translation. The correct translation is “these three give testimony” and that’s all, nothing about all three being “one”

[@gingrai00]

~12:20 WLC mentions how silly it is for people to think that something is false or incoherent just because they cannot understand it. This is, no doubt, true… there are many things that are incomprehensible to me that are true and of great importance. I want to make a different point, the converse of this matter if you will… I want to point out just how often people think a thing is true just because they are able to understand it. I find this to be a great cause of concern in the church today and it is exemplified in Calvinism which offers a pre-packaged, seemingly comprehensive narrative and systematic theology that many adherents think is true, many of which I would suspect, because it is comprehensible by them and able to be explained by them. We have to be careful of this error on both ways.

[@beiyongzui]

It is true people shouldn't think that something is false just because they cannot understand it. BUT people CANNOT BELIEVE in something they don't understand. It is simply impossible. Can you believe in say "kwofuak"? No because you don't even know what kwofuak means. So if they don't even understand what trinity really is, if they cannot digest and solve it wholly, then it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for them to believe it.

[@jesusisthechristthesonofgod]

Considering the Trinity doctrine is not taught in the Holy Bible nor is it Christian, no the Trinity doctrine is not important.

[@bruhmingo]

It is taught in the old and New Testament, and is essential to Christianity.

[@jesusisthechristthesonofgod]

@@bruhmingo Tell the truth.

[@stevenwebb6253]

Jesus called our God and Father his God and Father at John 20:17 See also Rev. 3:12

[@bruhmingo]

You really want to go to revelation? Where Jesus says he is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, where all created things worship him and nothing that was made doesn’t worship him?

[@AlbertHinkle]

Please finish your book Dr. Craig. Ive been waiting for it.

[@gailpurcell1649]

I loved the book "The Mind of the Maker" by Dorothy Sayers about the Trinity. She argues that God made us a trinity too so we know it by experience. Her analogy is when a person creates by writing a play or book. The Idea (God the Father), the book written (Jesus the Son), the book read (the Holy Spirit). Even though there are the three parts of a book it is only one book. If we are not balanced in any one of the Trinity, our walk is unbalanced and unfruitful.

[@NickHawaii]

That’s parts not persons. That’s considered heresy by informed Trinitarians. Jesus wasn’t Trinitarian.

[@josemontalvo4532]

Beautiful exposition on the Trinity. I’m blest in listening to this podcast. Thank you all for sharing the truth and ideas on the Trinity. Godspeed!

[@NickHawaii]

Ask your self who is the Living God? (Jeremiah 10:10) YHWH/Jehovah is and what is Jesus called in Matthew 16:16?

[@RyanAustinDean]

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” The trinitarian formula was not fully conceived until Christ had been resurrected for over 200 years. It was the integration of pagan triune theology into a God Who is one, manifested in the flesh as Jesus Christ, and living within you as the Holy Spirit. To think that the Council of Nicaea knew better than the apostles who understand when they looked upon Jesus, they had seen the Father is unconscionable.

[@thetheoreticaltheologian2458]

I’ve actually been studying the evidence for the Trinity in the Old Testament and while I wouldn’t have time to text all of it I think Dr. WLC gave us a very good insight into the Trinity with the Jewish Shema along with that when God God says, let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness. God is the only creator and so I think we get a glimpse by these verses that speak of one God but more then one in Personhood. Another one that doesn’t really get spoken about is when God comes down from Heaven with 2 angels and speaks with Abraham and God “Yahweh” takes Abraham up to a place that overlooks Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham says will you destroy the cities if there are 50 righteous people and God says no for the sake of the 50 I will not and goes all the way down to 10 or so and then the angels go get Lot and his family out of there and then “Yahweh” who was with Abraham states, and the Lord “Yahweh” reigned down fire and burning sulfur on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah from the Lord “Yahweh” in the Heavens. Here we see that there are at least 2 Yahweh’s in this verse! 1 with Abraham and the other in Heaven. Of course you also have the Holy Spirit spoken of in scripture. I could go on and on about the Trinity in the Old Testament but I think this is a very good start. God bless y’all!

[@stevennimocks3753]

There is no trinity in the OT and never was. Do your homework. Even Dr. Craig knows this. kzbin.infoUgkxXAVuDtvAdE2TI224QZCOKUYhVSnd1BVn

[@NickHawaii]

God was talking to his Son who he used to help make all things. But God is the source of life and creation. FROM the Father, THROUGH the Son. (1 Corinthians 8:6) No trinity or same being God necessary.

[@NickHawaii]

No 2 Yahwehs. The creed of Israel was and still is One Yahweh. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Looking at my Hebrew Interlinear it says: “And Jehovah rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Jehovah out of the heavens.” (Genesis 19:24; The Interlinear Bible, A Literal Translation of the Bible, James P. Green, Sr.) The Hebrew text shows that BOTH references are to “Jehovah.” This doesn’t mean there are two Jehovahs in anyway. Language like this is nothing out of the ordinary as we discover in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is consistent with Hebrew idiom to speak of a person’s doing something in reference to himself. We read: “Solomon proceeded to congregate the older men . . . to King Solomon.” “To Moses (Jehovah) said: ‘Go up to Jehovah . . . ’” “Jehovah went on to say: . . . I will save them by Jehovah.’” (1 Kings 8:1; Exodus 24:1; Hosea 1:6, 7; Zechariah 10:12) In this same way Genesis 19:24 tells us that Jehovah brought the unprecedented sulfur and fire from himself, “from Jehovah, from the heavens.” The explanatory note by Trinitarian Dr. Young in Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, for this verse states: "JEHOVAH...JEHOVAH, i.e. from Himself."

[@Sirach144]

The Shema was quoted in Mark 12:29 and nowhere does it show God being a plurality. Also read Gen 1:27. It shows God is singular. Verse 26 says GOD SAID. Nowhere does the verse show that whom God is leaking too is a consumstantial being or personage of a trinity.

[@S.R.M.]

Most Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity to be biblical, and they cite Matthew 28:18-20 or 1 John 5:7. But is the following the original quote of Christ? “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” These verses are the modern-day rendition identifying an interpolation, so the question must be asked, “Did Christ speak every word found in these verses?” The first Church Historian Eusebius (quotes Matthew 28:19 as it appeared in the early 4th century, Christ said, “Go and make disciples of all nations in My name” (Matthew 28:19, as it was originally quoted, Eusebius, The History of the Church, p. 68, Penguin Classics, 1965). Note, He never said, “...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Which commandment did the disciples hear? It appears the latter quoted by Eusebius from an original manuscript of the NT, for there is no instance of the disciples ever baptizing anyone “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,” according to the New Testament! On baptisms specifically were done in the name of {YAHSHUA}, Martin Luther notes, “The apostles certainly used this formula in baptizing in the name of Christ only, as we read in the Acts of the Apostles,’ citing Acts 2:38; 10:48; and 19:5” (Erik H. Herrmann, Paul W. Robinson, The Annotated Luther, Volume 3: Church and Sacraments. Fortress Press. p. 66, 2016). In a documented sermon, Martin Luther made this astonishing statement, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). The disciples of Christ in the first two or more centuries did not know of any doctrine of the Trinity. Historically, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the trinity-at any rate from him” (H. G. Wells, The Outline of History, Vol. 2, p. 499, 1920). Therefore, without a doubt, The so-called Great Commission, as written is an interpolation: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19, the words “...in the name of the Father and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost” were added centuries later). The disciples were to make disciples in His name, and they were baptized in the name of Christ only as the NT gives evidence. The formula is mentioned in the Didache (7:1-3), and it is mostly accepted as authentic due to its supporting manuscript evidence (Everett Ferguson, Baptism in the Early Church, 2013, pp. 134-5). Nevertheless, some scholars have held the view that the passage in the Didache is an interpolation as it is absent from the first few centuries of early Christian quotations, in which case it is believed it would be part of an apostolic or early Christian oral tradition from which both the received texts of Matthew and the Didache emerged, however, the conclusion is the church only baptized in the name of Christ. The view of the passage as an interpolation was in recent times maintained, and this particular line of opposing arguments by Trinitarians is pure eisegesis, meaning the process of interpreting a text in such a way as to introduce one's presuppositions, agendas, or biases, that artificially supports the Trinitarian formula, and based on interpolated verses added to the New Testament. Catholics and Protestants would agree with Protestant Theologian James White, who writes, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the doctrine…We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully completely Christian” (The Forgotten Trinity, pp. 14-15). And yet most other scholars know that the Trinity is beyond human understanding, “The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind, but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul” (Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, A Christian Handbook, pp. 51-52, 1953). Nowhere in the New Testament is believing in the Trinity a prerequisite for one’s salvation. Nowhere in the Bible did the LORD ever reveal Himself as a Trinity, or Triune God. Interpolations exist in the New Testament, which are words added later to prove the Trinity. Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 are proven interpolations, and therefore not of the original Scriptures. 1 John 5:7 is known as “The Johannine comma,” due to a sequence of extra words in 1 John 5:7-8 which appear in later versions of the Bible, but not in earlier Scriptures. Compare these words below in italics in the KJV and the same verse from the newer ESV. "For there are three that bear record (witness) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:7-8 KJV). "For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree" (1 John 5:7-8, ESV). These extra words are generally absent from the early Greek manuscripts. They only appear in the text in late medieval manuscripts, which were done by Trinitarians to bolster the man-made doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinitarian doctrine only existed since the 4th century! A religion unexamined is not worth having.

[@mdub2000]

I love what Dr. Craig is saying its quite logical....but what is not logical is that he actually looks like David Lee Roth....he could be the lead singer of Van Halen:)

[@mynameis......23]

15:21 there is lot of evidence of Trinity in Old Testament Trinity in Old Testament. Genesis 1:26 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” Genesis 19:24 24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. The Messiah is worshipped Daniel 7:13-14 (Son of Man) 13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed In Isaiah 10:21 YHWH is called Mighty God, by in Isaiah 9:6 Lord Jesus is called Mighty God. Isaiah 10:21 21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Three persons in this passage 👉 Isaiah 48:12,13,16 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.... 16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.” __next topic__ God coming down as man in old testament. In genesis 32:24 we see God coming down as man and wrestling with Jacob, we can read that in genesis 32:30 when prophet Jacob says "I have seen God face to face" God appeared to Abraham in a form of Man. Genesis 18:1-3 1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. More evidence judges 13:10 we can read, a man comes down to talk to manoah' wife. And in judges 13:22 manoah (Prophet samson' father) says "sure we will die because we have seen God face to face. In Zechariah 12:10 God said they will look Me whom they have pierced. How can God be pierced of He Don't have Body. Zechariah 12:10 10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. God being born from a woman Isaiah 9:6 6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[@Roz-zi1ye]

I recommend people look into Biblical Unitarianism if this conversation makes no sense whatsoever.

[@bruhmingo]

There is no such thing as a biblical Unitarian

[@whiteeaglecrossminix784]

The darkness unto consummation within Christendom today is in large part due to the heresies livened into the Body of Christ after the two Councils of Nicaea (325 & 787 AD) in which a Trinitarian doctrine of divine persons was adopted, and the correct doctrine of one only Divine Person resisted. Later in this writing a more concise and comprehensive explanation of the Holy trinity and/or Divine Trinity is provided. Now it is this doctrine of today’s Nicaea Trinitarians, that has caused utter blindness in the Church today, even *greater than that blindness experienced by the Israelitish Representative Church’ at the Advent of our Lord 2000 years ago. The reason I say, “greater blindness” is due to the Christian Church being a Spiritual Church, which is inward (interior) of the soul, and remains in the afterlife. The irony of this is that what goes around comes around, and today’s Christian Church’ blindness will and has allowed the “New Inmost Church of God and His Christ”; New Jerusalem, to be born on earth into the world. A sign in this our times, that calls into question the Church’ soundness, are paradoxes beginning by our Lord’ Holy Spirit to manifest with the faithful in Christendom. One which stands out most for me is this; today there are many who believe the Christian Church is consummating or ending, with an estimated 2 billion professing to be Christian? This being the case, doesn’t it beg the question; “Who are the 2 billion professing Christians?” This almost serves as an indictment of the Christian Church especially when we consider, that 2000 years ago by the True Man Christ, and a hand full of His disciples, changed the entire paradigm of the world, then what should have been the effect of 2 billion actual Christ like beings: Christians? More will be explained later in this work in regard to the blindness in the Christian Church today. The Divine of God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the perfect order unto Life Living. Quite actually Jesus knowing Himself to be of the Eternal Life source in Him (Father; Creative Divine; Esse/Wilt) knew that the Divine order of God the Father would heal and make perfect always that which was without sin; Creative Divine cannot deny Himself. This is why Lord Jesus say, I AM having this commandment of the Father, I AM able to lay down my life and take it again. Again, as the Father hath life in Himself, so too has He given the Son to have Life in Himself, the Father and I are one. I can do nothing except that which I see my Father do. I lay down my Life, no man take it from me, but I lay it down freely, for I AM able to lay it down and take it again. This commandment Jesus had of the Father, in whom He said: I AM. Jesus say; Father glorify Thou me with Thine own self with that glory I had with Thee before the world was, and the voice from out of Heaven say; I have both glorified it and will straightway glorify it again. I AM who I AM. The Holy Spirit at this point made mindful unto me in His Word the Shema - Deuteronomy 6:4-9, Psalm 110:1, and Matthew 22:44. Thank you, Lord The glory Jesus was referencing to “before the world was” is that of the creative Divine of the Father. Remember Jesus say, My Words are Spirit and Life. Therefore, when it is said “I have both glorified it and will straightway glorify it again” is meant the will or Life of Jesus is in union with the wilt or Living creative Divine of God the Father. Being of this knowing provides greater awareness, strengthens belief, and coalesces otherwise what would be an incomprehensible infinite manifold Spirit of God, into a measure and weight receivable for men and Angels. Here than in an effort to remove what to me is the greatest fragmentation in Christendom today, which I believe has moved us from the darkness into the thick darkness of consummation is that of not having a right understanding of the Holy Trinity/Divine Trinity. In addition, this self-induced blindness within Christendom has impeded many from coming into a fuller conjunction with God our Father and Christ Jesus our Lord; sadly, what has gone around this day has come around. Selah So, by our Lord’s mercy, in all anticipation of healing and restoring soundness from the inmost of the one True Church of God and His Christ, the Divine Trinity taught correctly will be provided as follows: First there is no such thing as "divine persons", plural with an “s”. There is a Holy Trinity and/or Divine Trinity in the one only Divine Person of Christ Jesus our Lord. In this, the one God, there are three essentials of His one indivisible, uncreate, Divine essence distinguishably of Father (Creative Divine), Son (Ultimate human form of Creative Divine), and Holy Spirit (Emanating Radiant goodwill of the Holy of Holies, Yehovah - Creative Divine, everlasting living union between God and man, power supreme in the glorified body of Christ Jesus, one Lord from Eternity; I AM that I AM). This is that Bread of Life; Heavenly Manna by which if any man eats may be made alive forevermore. Amen and Amen Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Here then we are gifted by our Lord's mercy, in very wonderful truths in which to affirm right order in Christ mindfulness, and that is; The Holy Spirit is the Lord, and the Lord is the Heavenly Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, as soul, body, and operation in man is one; and even more so, in consideration that, the Lord God is the very all in all, in which we of the living who do His will have been created in the image and likeness therein, from, and too. Amen John 12:44-45: “Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. "And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.” Thank you, Lord Jesus. Amen

[@seanchaney3086]

Yes.

[@Sirach144]

In the Bible God as a person. But it’s almost like a trinitarians try to turn God into an adjective. It’s something that you are in the state of being. I’m sorry that’s not it.

[@mountainman78629]

It’s cool seeing I assume the guys with got questions because they come up a lot when I search for something on the web. They just need to become 5 point calvinist because that view brings so much I couldn’t understand about the Bible into such a much better and clearer understanding of scripture. I think we all want to understand Gods Word as He intended it to be understood but we are fallen and He made quite a bit of it hard to understand. In Luke 24: 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. Remember Jesus told Peter, “to you it has been given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them it has not been given.” The Bible is a closed book to everyone but He opens some people’s understanding and He doesn’t for others. On top of that He’s not obligated to give each and everyone of us equal understanding.

[@grneal26]

I am even more confused than ever. Trinity doesn't make sense to me.

[@ProjectBlackBox_TM]

I personally hate Got Questions. They said there's no such thing as a carnal Christian, and if you say you're a Christian but you're living in sin then you aren't really saved.

[@joevi2593]

Everyone lives in Sin. That is why The Father sent The Son to save us and act as a ransom for all.

[@paulnavarro3822]

I am a "former" Roman Catholic so I do understand WHAT the "trinity" doctrine, according to Rome, is supposed to be. The "Athanasian Creed" is pretty much the Roman Creed, which I as a child received as being true, even though, of course, the HOW about it was a "Mystery". I no longer believe Rome's "trinity" and it is not because I "do not understand" it. I do not believe in Rome's "trinity" simply because IT is NOT a Biblically PRONOUNCED teaching. There is not a single Author or Preacher in the Bible which, in a figure, states something like this: "Hear ye people of the LORD, He is one in three persons, He is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. No not say that He is only one Person and not a triune of Persons. He has revealed Himself through the Prophet (fill in the blank) as being the Father and the Son and the Spirit and each one being distinct from one another and yet there being only one God. All those who say that God is NOT a 'trinity' of three Persons is not of God but is a heretic and must be destroyed." The people who TALK that way, as above, are NOT in the Bible. They are people like William L. Craig and James White who are SAYING those things. However, they CANNOT quote a single Old Testament or New Testament Historical Character who ACTUALLY PROPOSES that "God is a trinity". If they can QUOTE a single Bible teacher who ACTUALLY expounds or teaches on this supposed "fundamental Christian doctrine" I will BELIEVE. Trying to INTERPRET certain Scriptures as ALLUDING to or HINTING at or "There, there it is, see it!" or just giving a Personal DEFINITION as "proof", as Craig "suggests", WILL NOT SUUFICE!! Why? Because we, Christians, are BELIEVERS in the SCRIPTURES, i.e. the Writings and Teachings of the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles, and not believers in someone's personal "theology".

[@forgor7180]

so what are you a believer of?

[@paulnavarro3822]

@@forgor7180 - I BELIEVE in what the INSPIRED Authors, the Writers of Scripture, have to say. It is as SIMPLE as that. I am not being evasive. I BELIEVE what the Scriptures actually say about God and Who He is; I do not believe what "theologians" have CONCOCTED. They can easily prove me wrong by QUOTING their "trinity" doctrines (yes there are various "trinity" doctrines) FROM Scripture. They CANNOT!! The issue is not "What do I believe?" nor "What does William Lane Craig believe?, rather it is simply "What did the Writers believe?". As far as I can tell they are TOTALLY SILENT about a "trinity". So, logically speaking, if THEY had absolutely NOTHING to say about a "trinity" then who am I or who is anyone else to ASSUME a "trinity"?

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@paulnavarro3822 you obviously don't know 2nd temple period Biblical Judaism that Jesus and the Apostles including Paul taught : the Jewish theology of the Two Powers in Heaven or Two YHWH's as stated in Genesis 19:24 the trinity comes from this Jewish theology of an invisible YHWH and visible YHWH that are both in the O.T.

[@paulnavarro3822]

@@davidjanbaz7728 Obviously? I did not KNOW my ignorance was that OBVIOUS. In which Letter does Paul TEACH anyone that there are "Two Powers in Heaven"? Where does Jesus or Paul say, "There are Two Powers in Heaven", and then go about TEACHING about those "Two Powers in Heaven" even as Michael S. Heiser TEACHES? Nowhere my friend. I may not be an Erudite like William Lane Craig but I CAN READ what Jesus and Paul said and they NEVER mention any "Two Powers in Heaven". With respect to Genesis 19:24, the LANGUAGE used is simple to UNDERSTAND without having to do "mental gymnastics". The Angels which had been sent to DESTROY Sodom and Gomorrah did just that. THEY were the ones who called down fire and brimstone from Heaven. The verses simply state, in double EMPHASIS, FROM WHERE and FROM WHOM, the POWER and AUTHORITY to ACT in such a manner had come from. Not "rocket science"; no "erudite" explanation is needed. I do KNOW and UNDERSTAND the very SIMPLE concept of "Agency". Do you? If you do then just ignore the following, it will just be for those who do not know. The best Biblical EXAMPLE which I can give is that of Joseph, after he was made "second in command" of Egypt. It is WRITTEN that Pharaoh did this: Gen 41:39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art: Gen 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and ACCORDING TO THY WORD SHALL ALL MY PEOPLE BE RULED: ONLY IN THE THRONE WILL I BE GREATER THAN THOU. Gen 41:41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I HAVE SET THEE OVER ALL THE LAND OF EGYPT. Gen 41:42 And Pharaoh took off HIS RING from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; Gen 41:43 And he made him to ride in the SECOND CHARIOT which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him RULER OVER ALL THE LAND OF EGYPT. Gen 41:44 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt. WOW!! What AUTHORITY!! Now let me ask you this. When Joseph went about his business in Egypt, after having received Pharaoh's RING, to WHOM were the people BOWING down? Were they bowing down to Joseph or to the Pharaoh? They were bowing down to Joseph who was the Pharaoh's AGENT; Joseph was ACTING under the AUTHORITY of Pharaoh; the people were simply ACKNOWLEDGING the Authority which was GIVEN to Joseph by Pharaoh. They did not THINK that Joseph himself was Pharaoh himself. They did not CONFLATE nor CONFUSE the two Men; they did not experience Cognitive Dissonance nor did they have an Existential Moment when they SAW each one. They did not ask, "Is it Pharaoh or is it Joseph or are they the SAME Person?" They were not STUPID! There were not "Two Powers in Egypt" but ONE only, the Pharaoh who literally sat on the Throne. Joseph was an EXTENSION of Pharaoh. In essence, in Egyptian understanding, there was but ONE "God" in Egypt, the Pharaoh. Joseph, in Egyptian understanding was another "god", empowered to do Pharaoh's will, but not "God", the Pharaoh. All Jews, not just so called "second temple" Jews, UNDERSTOOD the concept of AGENCY. My goodness, they were ALL Descendants of former Egyptians, per se. All of the "Angels of the Lord", the ones who appeared to Abraham, the one who wrestled with Jacob, the ones who appeared to Moses, the ones who appeared to Lot, they were all Yahweh God's AGENTS or REPRESENTATIVES. They ACTED and SPOKE and were WRITTEN about as if they were "God Himself", but they were NEVER seen as Ontologically being someone other than Angels SENT by Yahweh God. Jesus was in a different category because he was no "Angel" but was God's fully Human Son. However, he also was SENT to the Children of Israel, around 27 A.D., by Yahweh God, his Father, to REPRESENT Him in the Land, with COMPLETE fullness of divine Power and Authority. Jesus ACTED with the Authority which had been GIVEN to him at the age of 30 years. The language used by N.T. Writers confirms that they never SAW Jesus as "God Himself" but as the Messiah/Christ, "Son of God", an appropriate Title for a King. Jesus was/is the King of kings and Lord of lords, as APPOINTED by Yahweh God. He is not a "Second God" nor a "Third God" nor a part of any "Triune God". A Man is sitting at this moment in Heaven; a Man will RULE on Earth over the Nations. That Man is the Lord Jesus Christ, the "Son of God", the King of kings and Lord of lords, BUT NOT Yahweh God nor another "Divine Being".

[@mikeambs]

@@paulnavarro3822 hmm, David appears to have gone very quiet 🤷‍♂️

[@japexican007]

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:” ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@KevinDay]

Colossians 2:12 KJV - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, *who hath raised him from the dead.* Notice that it never says Christ raised *himself* from the dead but it distinguishes the "selves" of the Father and the Son. The Father and Son are both fully the one God, but they are personally distinct perspectives of God. The son is not just a flesh body being puppeted by the Father, and the Father did not transform into the Son, but the Father and Son existed simultaneously and eternally. Now, is the term "persons" accurate? I'm not so sure... maybe it used to be, but now I think it carries too much baggage, and trying to redefine it is not helpful.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

Man, it's like the gnostics that denied Christ's deity in its biblical definition were questionable and that this verse has little to do with the Trinity except to affirm Jesus' deity within it.

[@NickHawaii]

@@KevinDay One is God to the other. Not the same being.

[@KevinDay]

@@NickHawaii Now that just blasphemous. Humble yourself and seek the truth before its too late.

[@NickHawaii]

@@KevinDay Huh? What is blasphemous about Jesus worshiping his God? What does he call his Father in heaven 4 times in Revelation 3:12 alone?

[@shawnfilion7xlightray]

You said it Dr. Craig @1:55 - 2:04, but got it backwards @2:05 - 2:16: Person, or Body? Jn 6:51 "flesh"; 1 Pet 2:24 "body". Both God and Man: Trinity, Oneness, or what Christ taught? 2 Jn 1:9, who's plain and straightforward doctrine (Pro 8:8-9) equals Rom 1:20 (and we all know Trinity does not), and equals Gen ch. 1-2. WARNING: The falling away came first! Who goes into the great tribulation for judgement and correction? Rev 2:22 The Church. Truly, truly, God provided, in the Bible: the calculation, and numbers, which produces a name, and the number of his name! In love of the Father and Son, these are all in error, Trinity; Oneness; J.W.; Unitarian. I have more to say on this, if you wish to overcome the world and all it's sins 1 Jn 5:5. No one can, or has, overcome Christ's, or my doctrine, this joy I offer you, but will make yourself a target, hated by all denominations. But now is the time to awake Matt 13:25-26; 25:5-6; Exo 32:1,4,8!

[@Jesus_is_Coming_be_ready]

I believe the word trinity its all over the bible , God is the word for trinity. Jesus said why you call me good only God is good , he didn't say Father, Son ,or Holy Ghost. Bc without one their is no good ,the power is together as one .

[@johannesvondaham1063]

It is only important where one seeks to distance oneself from God. God revealed himself to us once in the prophets today in the son, but you don't listen to any of these "parties", but rather accept the philosophy and put Jesus' word into perspective. Anyone who goes beyond the teaching of Christ does not have God. "But go to my brothers and tell them I am going up to my God and to your God, to my father and to your father" "For the father is greater than me". Unfortunately, you put this into perspective by attaching other teachers! Anyone who wants to find and serve God knows how to listen to Jesus (the) Christ.

[@mikeambs]

WLC gets very giddy at the "genius" of the NT authors (whole cloth) inventing new and interesting ways to tie back into existing cannon 🤷‍♂️ As is the case with any good fan fiction, the NT authors created new rules out of existing foundations (ie, three being one, one being three).

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Your ignorance is overwhelming!

[@mikeambs]

@@davidjanbaz7728 it's exciting, I know!

[@DrBahiruLegesse-SCIsurvivor]

Will jesus be in limited body for eternity...?

[@markdiblasi3061]

You are a Father to be a Father means you have to have a Son or you are not a Father. They didn’t think God had a Son.

[@NickHawaii]

If you are a Father to someone you are not that being. And one comes before the other.

[@Papasquatch73]

To have a transcendent God and a material God at the same time is a very Jewish idea. Look at Michael Heiser and two powers of heaven

[@kapayapaanpeaceisourtriump6562]

Have a great day everyone. Concerning to the trinity, if there are three persons in one God and distinct to each other, how they became one?

[@JoshuaMSOG7]

1 John 5:7

[@bobbyfischersays1262]

​@@JoshuaMSOG7so the Trinity is the Spirit, the water, and the blood?

[@JoshuaMSOG7]

@@bobbyfischersays1262 that not what John 5:7 says that bear record in heaven.. you skipped into verse 8 that says it bears record on earth. Silly rabbit, read correctly.

[@bobbyfischersays1262]

@@JoshuaMSOG7 not sure what version you're reading but that phraseology doesn't appear in any manuscript family until the 14th century.

[@JoshuaMSOG7]

@@bobbyfischersays1262 Not sure what version I’m reading? Don’t you own a Bible? Did you open your Bible to prove me wrong? I’m reading the King James Version which has been here for 400 yrs and The King James Version of the Bible is the best-selling Bible version of all time. Almost every American president has been sworn into office with his hand on a King James Bible. More than 250 phases we hear everyday originate from the King James Bible. Once the King James Bible caught on, it was virtually the only Bible used in the English-speaking world for the next three centuries. William Tyndale translated the New Testament from Greek to Early Modern English in 1526, and full translations including the Old Testament would follow. The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the Bible of choice among England’s Puritans, who would go on to settle the New World.. Did you know those bibles before the KJV also had that verse and the ending of MARK 16? What do you know about textual manuscripts? You know which family line you are talking about when you say “oldest.”? I know about wescott and Hort. I don’t want you to try act educated like you know something. I wanna know what the Bible says and what God said… deal with the text buddy. Don’t run away.

[@seekingthetruth9918]

1 John 2:22-23 KJV [22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

The fact that Jhn 6:46 and Jhn 1:18 says that _no one_ has ever been aware of the Father's existence makes the trinity doctrine problematic because it depends on its believers twisting OT passages out of context to support it. There's also the matter that the Son didn't exist until the Word became a human being.

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession [a]for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save [a]to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.

[@mynameis......23]

You don't understand basic English. These verses in John says "no one know the Father except the Son". Which means His devine nature. Who is He. They definately know the Father's existence.

[@matthiasgrimm243]

@@mynameis......23 What do you think about Jehovas Witnesses?

[@NickHawaii]

@@matthiasgrimm243 Jehovah’s Witnesses got it right. Jesus is the Son of the living God. (Luke 1:32) Jesus is the Son of the Most High. (Psalm 83:18) Ask yourself who is the Living, Most High God? It’s really quite simple. Men make it confusing. Jehovah is the God of Jesus. (Micah 5:4) The moment you have someone God to you then you can’t be that God. Jesus always has someone God to him, his God Jehovah. Jehovah doesn’t have anyone God to him. That’s what makes him the Supreme One.

[@matthiasgrimm243]

@@NickHawaii Is there something that you don’t like with Jehovas witnesses?😊

[@cget]

I'll pick up this book because I just can't see from the Bible how the Holy Spirit is a person.

[@markequila9436]

Ephesians 4:30 ... ETC Many in the bible refers to the Spirit as personal pronouns

[@cget]

@@markequila9436 Wisdom is referred to using personal pronouns too. What makes it not a person?

[@sethbaker6801]

I don't think the Holy Spirit is a separate person from God either. I think it's best to see the Spirit as an extension of God himself, particularly in his dealings with the created order. With this said, how do you deal with Scriptures where it says the Spirit "speaks" or is "grieved" or is called a "he"?

[@cget]

@@sethbaker6801 I can buy it being an extension of God, like His power or force. But I don't get it as it is defined in the Trinity. I think the arguments about personification are weak because wisdom for example, is personified also in multiple instances. What makes it not a person?

[@sethbaker6801]

@@cget Sure, but Wisdom is personified in poetic or wisdom literature. The Spirit is said to speak in the context of a narrative. I think this should give us pause.

[@MayankSharma-vz5of]

Batman superman wonder woman does matter

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Your confused!

[@JK-xn4mj]

As a Christian, I still got that reference!

[@ChrisPyle]

Did the Jews ever think for a second that their messiah would be a human form of their god YHWH? Of course not. Just stop

[@bruhmingo]

Yes they did. A multi personal nature of God was a rising doctrine in second temple Judaism.

[@ChrisPyle]

@@bruhmingo A pagan one yes. Kinda the point isn't it?

[@SomeChristianGuy.]

Am I the only one seeing Apollinarianism mixed here?

[@andrewclemons8619]

The Trinity does matter immensely because if it were true then Jesus is a demigod and is co equal or of the same "substance" of YHWH. Then we are stuck with the fact that we just don't measure up. If it takes a preexisting demigod to to have the strength and endurance to resist sin and follow Gods commands then how can we be expected to achieve this? Well the Trinitarian have a solution. All you have to do is believe in some facts about the person of Jesus and you're saved. Pump the brakes players. That's not the way it is. Jesus must be qualified as the Messiah or "son of God" spoken on in 2 Samuel 7 He must be a product of King David's loins. Meaning a child of flesh and blood of two human parents folks. We have identified obvious corruptions of the text that corroborate the notion that the trinity is a 4th century pegan corruption such as 1 John 5:7 and Matthew 28:19. We need not be half man half God to follow the commandments of God faithfully. Which is a requirement of salvation. Lest ye be called workers of Lawlessness. You are called to works worthy of repentence.

[@claudiozanella256]

The trinity is only a CONVENTIONAL doctrine, INVENTED by two CONVENTIONS of the fourth century. Jesus had NO IDEA of what a "triune God" is supposed to be and - four gospels long - states HE IS WITH THE FATHER ONLY. This directly tells you that of course NO TRIUNE God can exist because Jesus is NOT with TWO Persons. You can see in the gospels that Jesus NEVER states to be BOTH 1. with the Father AND 2. the Holy Spirit (or 1. with the Father AND 2. the Comforter). In other words the "Holy Spirit" - who comes from the Father and dwells in Jesus - appears not to be WORTHY to be SEPARATELY MENTIONED by Jesus. This would never happen when He was a third divine Person who is DISTINCT from the Father, it would be offensive!!! Therefore the Holy Spirit must on the contrary be a Person who is NOT DISTINCT from the Father...somehow be "a part of the SAME Father". This is why there's no need to separately mention the Holy Spirit: Jesus simply states to be WITH THE FATHER, inclusively of all his forms. That is what actually happens. Further, the gospels even disclose who is the "Holy Spirit": He is "God (the Father) who is A SPIRIT" (Jn. 4:23,24). As stated by Jesus, the Holy Spirit (God who is a spirit) comes from the Father. This means that in Mt. 28:19 the "Holy Spirit" is the "Father who is a spirit" whereas the "Father" is the Father who is NOT a spirit, i.e. He is the "normal" God, who is not here - nobody ever saw Him - and sends the "Holy Spirit" here. But the Holy Spirit is not a Person different from the Father. If you need some more evidence that the trinity doctrine is false, there are also clear passages that are INCOMPATIBLE with it "But, of the day and the hour, no man knows, no, not the angels in heaven OR THE SON, but the FATHER ONLY knows." (Mt. 24:36). That verse clearly SPECIFIES that neither the Son nor the ALLEGED third divine person know the future. The trinity doctrine states the opposite: Son and third divine person are CO-OMNISCIENT. Well, Jesus is perfectly right whilst the trinity doctrine states falsehood. Also here you can see that NO THIRD DIVINE PERSON exists: " No man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.". A private matter between Father and Son, TWO divine Persons.

[@jeep1927]

31:55 ridiculous claim that the Father accepts human blood as sacrifice. Human sacrifice is the practice of the enemy.

[@eyoo369]

The concept of sacrifice is closely linked to atonement. In the Old Testament, the Israelites offered animal sacrifices as a means of atonement for their sins. These sacrifices foreshadowed the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. His sacrifice was unique in that it was once and for all, meaning no further sacrifices were needed for the atonement of sins. God the Father sending his only Son on a mission to set the perfect image, through his death on the cross, took upon himself the punishment that was due to humanity because of sin. It is God's ultimate love for us to witness His grace. That was the ultimate and last sacrifice by Him for humanity to set the perfect image and redeem him. Now it's on us to adopt that image and become Christlike following his teachings.

[@jeep1927]

If Jesus was the last sacrifice to redeem man, then why is there a sacrifice at the wedding supper of the lamb? My understanding is that Jesus sacrificed himself, not to the Father, so he could attain his position as high priest.

[@eyoo369]

@@jeep1927 The wedding feast of the lamb is an eschatological event, meaning it’s a prophecy for the end times. End times will be a different Biblical timeline than the one we’re in now. Unless you already think it’s the end times, but that’s a personal view. Jesus is indeed referred to as a "high priest," especially in the Epistle to the Hebrews. However his role surpasses that of a mere priest; he is also the perfect image of man, mediator, ultimate sacrifice and the Son of God.

[@joerod5621]

A Triune God defies the laws of logic! We are both a person & a being at the same time! Jesus said I & the Father are one! J10:30 not a group of one! The word became flesh J10:30 and lived amongst us! not a second divine person! If you don’t have the Son you don’t have the Father! 1J2:23 Father & Son are just incarnational terms! Logically when is a son before a father like the chicken & an egg riddle! But I will be a Father to him (Jesus) & he’ll be a Son to me! 2corin6:18 H1:5 Jesus is the person of God not a second divine person!

[@michaeljefferies2444]

This whole comments section is a great testimony to the need of an infallible magisterium. God didn’t leave us as orphans to piece this stuff together ourselves, the Holy Spirit continues to guide his followers into all truth. It’s a remarkable testimony of his grace that most Protestants have been given the grace to see it in the scriptures, but the comments here show it’s far from obvious and it’s easy for people not to see it.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

Name an infallible person in the early church. I'll wait

[@bruhmingo]

Who interprets the magisterium

[@ChrisPyle]

Arg!!!!! Name another being that is “tri-personal”? People with multi personality disorder. We are made in gods image, only when we aren’t bat sh*t crazy, we are “one personal beings” stop!!!! And who is the holy spirt? The KJV calls the Holy Spirit “itself” not he, not him, not father, not son, just it

[@billyroland2758]

Jesus prayed to God. So he's not God. Have you ever heard of God praying to anyone ever. 🙂

[@bruhmingo]

Jesus prayed to the father. Stop assuming Unitarianism

[@billyroland2758]

@@bruhmingo What's the difference between us praying to the our father in heaven and Jesus praying to the father in heaven? I'm not referring to how the father will react. I'm specifically referring to the act of praying to the father.

[@robbo916]

Isn't it more right and more understandable to think of God as a family rather than just three? After all, Jesus gives us the power to become His children and, as Dr. Craig says, He has many sons.

[@japexican007]

But even Satan is from God doesn’t mean the person of Satan is part of the triune Godhead

[@robbo916]

@@japexican007 Obviously not, but that is assuming the Godhead is triune.

[@ckay_real2765]

Yes, but we a Gods children in one sense , while jesus being the only begotten son of God is meant in another sense. We were created, meanwhile Jesus was not. Jesus isvthe eternal son of God.

[@ckay_real2765]

@@robbo916 Yes the Godhead is triune

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

That is actually what the Bible teaches: that God is a Family. Romans says Jesus was the firstborn of _many_ children(Rom. 8:29) who will look just like Him(1 Jhn 3:2). The trinity is one of the biggest falsehoods that are prevalent throughout the denominations of counterfeit Christianity.

[@terryjones1718]

The trinity is tri-theism at best and theologically untenable. There are no 3 distinct persons in a trinity. According to the theory, the Holy Spirit (the 3rd person of the trinity) is the father of Jesus. Matt 1:18-21. The Christmas incarnation scripture Isaiah 9:6 proclaims Jesus as the everlasting Father. Houston we have a problem.

[@bruhmingo]

It is absolutely not tritheism.

[@terryjones1718]

@@bruhmingo The verbiage of your creeds betrayed it. 3 is 3 every day. The is ONLY one God even the Father. Can't get around that.

[@mountainman78629]

The Trinity is essential because the Jesus who died to save us is the 2nd Person in the Trinity. That’s what separates the orthodox from the unorthodox. Mormons and jehovah witnesses pray, I assume, in the name of a jesus but to mormons he’s half god, half man and to JWs he’s a “lesser god”. Oneness Pentecostals believe he’s all there is and the Father and the holy spirit are just other ways of describing Jesus. John Gerstner once said there’s at least one hundred different Jesus’s out there and 99 of them have to be wrong. Jesus said anyone who believes in Him has already passed from death to life. He never even implied anything about the apostles creed or believing in or understanding the Trinity but the Jesus we have to believe in for salvation has to be the correct Jesus. The real one who actually existed and that means we have to believe in the Jesus who is the 2nd Person in the Godhead. Who was born of a virgin, who did suffer and die, who was raised from the dead, who did ascend to heaven, who does sit at the right hand of God, who will come to judge the living and the dead. Who is the 2nd Person of the trinity. If you don’t believe any one of those points you have a different Jesus. No one understands it completely but you have to believe it and it’s God who gives us that faith. Remember, IT is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. The doctrine of the Trinity is “hidden “ in plain sight, kind of, all thru the Bible and explicit in the New Testament. In the Old Testament you have to pay attention to the number 3. In the Holy of Holies the dimensions were the exact same for height, width and depth. Even in the new Jerusalem mentioned in revelation, it’s shape is a cube where all 3, there’s that number, all 3 dimensions are equal because the 3 Persons of the Godhead are equally God. The Hebrew letter shin represents Gods name and it’s 3 branches coming into one. We see it in creation. Trees are roots, trunk and branches, faith, hope and love. These 3, but the greatest is love. We have to believe it and only God can give us the faith. Our understanding of it can and does grow but God never requires us to understand it. He does require we believe and He gives us the faith the moment He regenerates us

[@eyoo369]

Trinity also links back to the triangle which is a deeply important platonic form in the structure of reality. I like your analogy on setting the three foundation there by identifying the first 2. The Trinity is a subconciouss internal mechanism that is important to have it set right to function properly in life. Everyone has a top 3 so who sits on the second Godhead? Without doubt, Christ

[@mountainman78629]

@@eyoo369 read about Samson and check out all the 3s. The 3 women, the 30 men at his wedding, the 300 men he killed, the 300 foxes and the 3000 he killed at his death. The number 3 is like Gods fingerprint and it’s funny how a Nazarite could break so many rules and still be used of God like he was

[@eyoo369]

@@mountainman78629 Jesus Christ was 33 when he was crucified. Jesus resurrected after 3 days. Jonah spent 3 days inside the whale. Jesus was tempted 3 times by the satan. No doubt that the 3 is of huge significance in scriptures.

[@mountainman78629]

@@eyoo369 I’m researching the kings and queens of the Bible and counted 43 total. Not a very biblically significant number until I thought, the first 3 kings were over a United Kingdom. The other 40 were over a divided kingdom. 3 and 40 are both biblically significant. Now I get to try to find out what they mean

[@davidhodges6201]

We know we exist because we are tripartite beings. I e Body, mind, and spirit and/or soul. It is from this arrangement that we can do, "I know, I think, therefore I am". But all other knowledge of being comes in these three. The thing measured or sensed, the measurement or sensing, and then the recording or rememberence of it. Without conforming to these threes nothing can be known or said to exist. How then can a God, before anything else and Without any context But himself coherently exist? He cannot be tripartite otherwise his essence would not be fundamental, he must therefore be trinitarian. In this form self existence before anything else can be seen as coherent. Only this way can he know himself to exist. Even without reading any bible Trinitarianism is the only coherent form of theism.

[@NickHawaii]

No description of three “persons in one God,” is described in the Bible ANYWHERE. What I find is that the doctrine of the Trinity is one of inference, a theological formulation based on a certain interpretation of Scripture and the result of a certain attempt to synthesize Scriptural information perceived in a certain way. By no means is it a direct Scriptural teaching or explanation. It is a humanly contrived teaching that is not expressly set forth in Scripture rather than a divine one. It is not as biblical as many think. The Bible never speaks of three subjects as ultimately and collectively constituting the one God of Christianity.

[@davidhodges6201]

@@NickHawaii so what idea of God are you proposing? Unitarian, because that word is not explicitly in scripture either, however Jesus saying that "I and the father are one" is, so presumably you are at least going for a duality. But what you need to think about is how an idea of God, who is necessarily self existent (and thats not explicitly in there either) can know anything at all, especially when there is just him. Knowledge requires at least a 3 point triangulation, other it cannot be said to exist . So for God trinity is the minimum requirement, it is also fundamental, whether it literally explicit or not. The interpretation of the bible is not generally literal focused on words, one scripture interpreting another is about ideas so you cannot then impute contradiction or incoherence. Of course there is no mention of God creating energy in the bible, and yet he clearly must have done if we are to take the fact that he is creator seriously. The trinity is only awkward if you refuse to see that it must be essential for Knowledge and self Knowledge in a situation before anything else has been created. As I said it is in fact therefore the only coherent form of theism, because a Unitarian God before all else would be indistinguishable from a perfect white washed tomb.

[@NickHawaii]

@@davidhodges6201 Didn’t say anything about a word. And I’m not Unitarian in that I do believe Jesus had a prehuman existence. Did Jesus say he was one God with the Father? Is that what he said? And how does John 17:20-23 help us?

[@davidhodges6201]

@@NickHawaii John 10 v30 and you are going to have to work harder than that to make any kind of discussion. What are you proposing as a God hypothesis and importantly how can he know himself pre creation?

[@NickHawaii]

@@davidhodges6201 I don’t have to work hard. Jesus said he was simply HEN (one) with his Father. He says his disciples are to be HEN with him and God. What did he mean? You have to work much harder than I do. So please answer

[@dianang5461]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one; these three agree in one. (1 John 5:7-8) The Father = The Most High, God in the highest. The Word = The only begotten Son of God. The Holy Ghost = The Mother.

[@bobbyfischersays1262]

Yikes

[@Bolagh]

The Trinity is not a biblical concept. • GOD is ONE • Jesus is the ONE GOD incarnate • Therefore JESUS is the ONE GOD incarnate Any division or distinction between Jesus and the ONE GOD is only due to the Incarnation, and nothing else. That’s why the Apostles obeyed Matt 28:19 by baptizing in the Name of Jesus Christ, and every where else in the New Testament that refers back to baptism, it’s always done in the Name of Jesus Christ. Just like Isa 9:6 predicts about the Messiah.

[@bruhmingo]

Modalist heretic

[@Bolagh]

@@bruhmingo by whose standard? Only if you’re a tritheist. You should read Mark 12:29-31 again.

[@ChrisPyle]

Craig is proving himself false the more he talks. Comparing the Trinity to quantum mechanics fails to admit that Jesus was happy the new covenant could be better understood by little children than learned men. He’s also trying to ignore the Bible warns against those that try to complicate Jesus message. Took 300 plus years to start talking about a “Trinity” it’s man made

[@AwsomePossum]

I didn't know Jehovahs witnesses were allowed to watch KZbin.

[@ChrisPyle]

@@AwsomePossum They aren’t. And I’m not. Clever comment lol

[@eyoo369]

@@AwsomePossum Hahah

[@eyoo369]

Actually God an infinite maximum high being, it would be hubris to say you understand it fully since we are limited by human form. We can only use forms and language to communicate the concept. Trinity. Every human subconciouslly has a top 3. First comes God, then the Holy Spirit who's your third place here if it's not Jesus Christ? It's just a theological framework, a roadmap if you will. Through Christ's teaching who set the perfect image, we seek the Holy Spirit, to meet our Father.

[@ChrisPyle]

@@eyoo369And yet you boldly claim to understand it perfectly well. Do you really think the only communication we have from god, would neglect to clearly define the “Trinity” completely failing to even include the name in that sole communication? It took hundreds of years after Christ for men to vote on the concept. It’s man made.

[@stephenmarlowe3907]

Scripture does not teach the Trinity. Christ is God because His God and Father gave Him all things making Him our only God (Isaiah 44:6-8). The Rock in the Old Testament is the same Rock in the New Testament, and that Rock is Christ (1 Corinthians 10:1-4). When one realizes that every Scripture where God is telling us the He is the only God refers to the Son of God, and it reminds us that Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life. "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the first-fruits of those who have [a]fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the first-fruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). The Trinity is a man made construct, which was never revealed by God. All Trinitarians, who teach this false doctrine, are sophists. The Shema is about Christ, who is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords... (Deuteronomy 10:17). Dr. Craig is a Christian sophist. True Christianity is Christ centered, and this to the glory of His God and Father. THE TRINITY IS FALSE!

[@NickHawaii]

True the trinity is false. Jehovah is the Most High God. (Psalm 83:18) Jesus is the Son of the Most High. (Luke 1:32) Jehovah is mighty but not almighty. He is superior to all but not over his God the Supreme One. He is high above all others but not the Most High. The exception as you pointed out in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is his God and Father.

[@yasaaley]

God the Father is the only true God because he is not contingent on anything. The Lord Jesus is contingent on the Father. God the Father is eternal in the past and in the future and infinite and is greater than all. The Lord Jesus is not infinite because he is less than the Father. Jesus explains why he is called the Son of God and why other representatives of God the Father are called gods. Therefore Jesus being called God or the Son of God does not make him the only ultimate true God.

[@bruhmingo]

This doesn’t logically follow at all. The Bible so clearly states that Jesus is uncreated, coequal and co-eternal with the Father.

[@yasaaley]

@@bruhmingo Do you realize you are just pressing your point home without backing it with reason? In order not to have us confused Jesus said it in no uncertain terms that the Father is greater than him. [See John10:29 and John14:28]. Where is it clearly stated that Jesus is uncreated, coequal and co-eternal with the Father? You did nothing to address the issues I brought up.

[@JKV84]

Trinity nonsense. ONE true God the Father / Jah and his only begotten son Jesus.

[@bruhmingo]

Jesus claimed to be God almighty.

[@JKV84]

@@bruhmingo nope

[@samuelcallai4209]

Is God all-merciful? Is that necessary to be the greatest conceivable being? But how could he be that in eternity, before creating anyone who could sin and therefore needed mercy? He couldn't. The same applies to all-forgiving, all-patient, etc. This shows that trinity is not necessary for being all-loving either, as he usually says. Not different from Allah.

[@presupping4eva]

I would say of course! If the God of the Bible is the greatest conceivable being, then He must be merciful. Mercy is the very extension of God’s grace. Grace is an essential characteristic of God, if God bears this characteristic, grace, which is courteous goodwill, this must imply that God is loving. If God is loving then not only is He capable, but also He is willing to forgive any individual who sins against Him. Grace and mercy are essential to God’s divine nature, because that’s how God revealed Himself through His prescribed will in the Scriptures. The Trinity is absolutely essential? What kind of Christian disagrees? A Christian who doesn’t understand who God is. The Trinitarian doctrine is what makes God, God! This is why the God of the Bible is different, and greater in significance than any other god like allah! With the Trinitarian doctrine, all you have is a basic, simple, plain, divine figure. Boring. But that’s not the God of the Bible. Without the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit, you don’t have the God of the Bible.

[@presupping4eva]

He is the greatest conceivable being from our very own viewpoint, because we are simply human creatures who require the salvation, grace, mercy, and love of God through Jesus Christ.

[@jhenfresh]

Since the Trinity has proven God to be all loving, love is packaged with several different attributes. Love is...Patient, kind, not easily angered (merciful,), it keeps no record of wrong (forgiving), humble, etc. (1 Corinthians 13:4-8). If we believe how the Bible defines love, then God would be able to eternally be merciful, patient, forgiving, etc.