Doing all the wrong things successfully

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[@georgecook5120]

I remember after Tiger Woods won one of the major tournaments he changed his swing. And he went on to great success. So I think if the M-class guy sees he is plateauing for an extended period, he might want to "overhaul his swing" and see if that sparks increased performance.

[@TheLopper]

@georgecook5120 I am plateauing right now and just shot a major this weekend where all the problems Ben mentioned that could happen with my grip, did happen. So I will definitely be doing an overhaul

[@MatthewC176]

Talk about Hunter Constantine’s recent grip video next, he says he grip 100% both hands and he’s a GM and wins events He doesn’t downplay a relaxed firing hand but says his “monkey brain” struggles with that so he just doesn’t shoot that way.

[@armorers_wrench]

That's pretty much what I do. I just try to not be truly, truly 100% out of my firing hand. But I'm pretty close. I twist my support hand into the grip and with Glocks I kinda push down with my support hand thumb on the ledge.

[@kevinallies1014]

@MatthewC176 He is talking about exactly what was talked about on that video. The simple fact is that if Michael Jordan or LeBron James had done literally everything wrong in their execution and relied only on their innate ability they would still have been great basketball players. Maybe not two of the very best of all time but still great. These guys are shooting thousands of rounds a week so even with bad technique they are eventually going to get pretty good and most of the top level shooters have superior eye hand coordination over the general public so they can use bad technique and still be great. The margins for someone who wasn’t gifted with superior eye hand coordination are a whole lot smaller. Watch what happens to the grip the shit out of the gun guys when they are 40, 50, 60 years old and their genetic benefits have been taken by time. Old guys who grip the shit out of the gun shoot shotgun patterns even at short range.

[@kevinallies1014]

@armorers_wrench Dry fire is what will break you of the grip the shit out of the gun habit. Mostly because if you are pulling the trigger 2-300 times a day beyond your actual live fire you physically can’t do it. Pistol shooting is a fine eye hand coordination skill. Show me some other eye hand coordination skill that “flex the involved muscles as hard as you can” is ever a technique? Do you see quarterbacks gripping the shit out of the ball? How about baseball pitchers? Do golfers grip the shit out of the club so it “doesn’t get away from them”? No of course not. Only in pistol shooting does tribal wisdom like grip the shit out of the gun so it doesn’t go flying ever exist.

[@armorers_wrench]

@@kevinallies1014 I have a way of wedging the gun in my firing hand that creates a ton of leverage without requiring me to actually grip 100%. Most of my grip is coming from torqueing my support hand/arm into the frame. But I still have a significant grip with the firing hand but again a lot of that "grip" is coming from a mechanical advantage that I get by grabbing it just right. It's hard to explain and it only works with a Glock 19 sized grip. If its a full size grip like a G17 I cannot do this wedging thing. My hands happen to be the perfect size to do this wedge thing with a G19. I do shit loads of dry fire and even have callouses everywhere my hand touches the gun from it. Eitherway, I'm going to end up having to change a lot of my shooting techniques because I just had surgery on both my hands and things feel really different now. For example, before the surgery I ran BCM pistol grips on all my ARs. After the surgery, and keep in mind these surgeries are still quite fresh so this may change, but after the surgery on my right hand the old school A2 grip feels way more comfortable to me than the BCM grip despite having ran that exclusively for years now. I found an old A2 grip laying around, ground off the little nub, installed that, it feels right now. IDK if that'll stay the case as my wrist heals but oddly it feels better.

[@jimmeyers8960]

@@kevinallies1014 Great comment. This is amplified in things like the Ace XR VR simulator, where it's easy to fire a couple of thousand "rounds" in a single dry fire practice session. I developed tennis elbow in my support hand because I was 100% grip both hands. Couldn't maintain it.

[@nchintalapani]

The key here is there is no "Universal" grip, Voegel's works for Voegel and some of us, Scott Jedelinski's works for some of us. Try it all and pick what works for you. I started with Jedi's grip and settled on Veogel's being the best for me. Don't get married to one no matter what, I tried it and it sucks, always keep experimenting.

[@AJohnSmith]

*”Don’t get married.”*

[@4FiftyPrecision]

@@AJohnSmith 😂

[@chrisharris6834]

Grip seems like it s one of those things that you, the shooter, has to figure out. During the past 8 years I’ve shot Glocks the Vogel way. Earlier this year I switched to a Staccato and tried to shoot the same way. It didn’t really work for me. Todd Jarrett showed me what his grip looks like, it took me a day or two in dry fire to lock it down. Now I am ripping .11-13 splits whereas with the Glock I could only get down to .17s at best. I am more consistent with the grip I have now. I’ve also learned to shoot more with my eyes. Therefore I’ve become a better shooter. I’ve had feedback saying”oh it’s the gun”. There could be an element of truth to that. However I don’t think it’s all of it. Because now when I pick up the Glock with my new to me grip; (It looks like I hold it similar to the way Ben does). My spits are faster(.15), I’m more accurate at speed and my grip after reload is more consistent. Consistency in the grip seems to have given me bigger gains than anything else.

[@onpsxmember]

What of his technique made it work for you? You can use the same despite the grip angle on the Glock going back?

[@TheLopper]

Hey Ben! I really appreciate you going over my comment. I'd be a fool to not listen, you have the experience to back it up for sure. I've definitely hit a massive plateau that I can't seem to get over, so this advice is very welcome. One day I want to win IPSC World's, hopefully within ten years. So far I'm only a year in and the best I've done is 8th in LO at a state championship match (a little more than 60 competitors in the division for the match). I'm going to try to rework my grip in the months to come before my next major. Thanks again, really appreciate the work you do.

[@SpankSandwich]

In my limited experience of shooting guns, it has become apparent that two things are true: everyone is searching for the once correct grip that will make shooting easy and that there is no such thing as one correct grip, but varieties of grip and fundamentals that are effective. Reminds me of basketball and how some of the best shooters in NBA history have wildly different looking shot forms...there is no one set way to get the ball in the hoop.

[@newyoutube6282]

Why does the audio suck the last week or so? It litterally cuts in and out and I'm upset because I'm missing some of the free valuable information I'm used to getting from Ben :(

[@onpsxmember]

Except for the beginning it doesn't cut out again but it makes it all sound like someone talking with a stuffed nose through a snorkel.

[@newyoutube6282]

@@onpsxmember it's probably gun lube in the mic hole lol.

[@leftyo9589]

just my opinion, but if you are actively thinking about your grip while shooting, it is going to hold you back. once you dial in your grip, it needs to be left as muscle memory instead of something you are thinking about while trying to shoot accurately.

[@codyrobbins2315]

Ed Zachary.

[@TheRealEricRose]

Agree

[@kristian762]

Grip pressure is something i pay a lot of attention to. I wonder if im overthinking it, spening too much time on it, or if im doing the right thing by trying to find the best most efficient way to grip the gun Grauffel says use push pull, use strong hand as a post pushing forward, and support hand clamping and pulling back. TPC says use the nutcracker technique, clamping the heels of the palm together at the back of the grip. Hunter Constantine says something else. I have found that my grip pressures definately play in role in me pushing shots left or right shooting bill drills or the doubles drill. Ive found that if i focus on gripping hard with my support hand straight to the rear, things tend to even out. Ive found that the way my support hand is positioned also plays a role in my ability to apply pressure straight back, where it was previously canted forward quite aggressively, like you'd grip a glock maybe, ive found that i have better results keeping my knuckles pretty much straight up and down in a much straighter postion. Is that something that changes depening on the gun's grip angle? Is it something i should even be thinking about? I need help Ben. Please help 😂

[@onpsxmember]

You're on the right path by looking for improvements. I'm on the same boat. If I grip high but not much forward with the left hand, closing the gap in the back hands meeting at 7 o'clock , pancake it and try high pressure it slips off. Imo I need more hill on the side to get my palm to take advantage. Grip angle plays into it but also the cross section. Elliptical like a 1911 () or like a []. Maybe add what you shoot so he can give you better advice. Grauffel doesn't say you should, just that he adapted it to train more. Rossen is shooting CZs. I think this works with some but not all handguns. Needs the space and shape to use it. If you have an Heureka moment, test it hard and then share. Thought twice I had something.

[@Tachanka28]

Not sure if you’ve done a video in this in the past, but would love your take on the scoop draw. I find it interesting that a lot of mid-high level shooters are using it, but not the dudes at the very top. I’m sure there is a reasonable explanation to my observation but I’m interested in your take.

[@ACN2011]

Gas station clerk: how can I help you? Ben: well ya I guess that’s interesting.

[@4FiftyPrecision]

Thanks, Ben. Good breakdown.

[@jeremycook5393]

I have been doing better with ingraining more support hand pressure and it does work. But also I’ve been noticing lately that the faster I shoot, I tend to squeeze hard with my firing hand too, and yet that doesn’t affect my accuracy. What was previously affecting my accuracy was firing arm tension, not grip pressure. As I’ve learned to relax my arms and shoulders I shoot much more accurately at speed. Grip pressure and arm tension don’t actually correlate to each other, I can be tense without gripping hard (which gets the worst result btw), or I can grip hard without being tense. The only downside that potentially leaves for the firing hand is slow trigger manipulation, but I find you’ve really gotta clench down before that starts happening.

[@michall3918]

Id overall say dont doubt yourself too much and if what you are doing works for you keep doing it. Dont o it blindly, even if you made M dont accept weak points in your shooting, always try to look for improvements. but if you are getting good splits and good hits and are happy with recoil control there is probably 100 better things to work on then grip. So even if its opposite of what Ben says then dont worry. Ask 10 GM shooters how they grip the gun and you will get 11 answers. There is value in all of them though i do tend to like Ben's approach the most.

[@Mrgunsngear]

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[@slotrans17]

This is exchange is amusing/interesting to me because I made it to M without thinking about grip in anywhere near this level of detail. I just hold the gun and shoot it. Does it really need to be complicated?

[@adamriehl8166]

I am pretty new. I’ve shot about 10 matches. My biggest problem is stage execution. I can plan a stage and my gun manipulation is pretty good. But when the timer goes off my plan flies out the window and I end up missing targets or having to transition back to one I missed. My local club has really good long stages which is when I have problems. When I’m shooting a smaller indoor match with shorter stages and I can shoot really good.

[@jimmeyers8960]

Right there with you. With the added confusion of getting thrown off in where I'm going to switch mags because I miss a shot. Very frustrating.

[@davidli3582]

I'm trying the GM26 method. Move fast and execute the stages fast, let marksmanship catch up later. Might be worth practicing a few club matches like this to get the hang of it.

[@n4d3m4n]

This past weekend I finally got a chance to practice rapid fire at 15 yards. I catch myself looking at the stripper in my face more than the target so this time, I took a radical stare only at the x on the target approach and my group size shrunk by half. to be honest, I lost the dot more times than not and might have seen it close to the X on the periphery of my focus a few times before I pressed the trigger. it felt more like point shooting than sighted shooting again, even though I was occasionally seeing the dot. Is that how the focus on the target works that you talk about?

[@stovepipe8966]

Umm - I’m not sure I get the thinking about grip adjustment while shooting a stage ? You build your grip on the draw or whatever the start is and then it’s just levels of sight confirmation and cadence as the target ranges change . I have a hard enough time remembering my stage plan let alone tightening and loosening my grip during a course of fire lol !

[@siguy5011]

Spot on.

[@WN_Byers]

Shut the door next time 🤣 🔊

[@leftyo9589]

and turn off the stupid neon light!

[@WN_Byers]

@@leftyo9589 I only listen 99% of the time, because I listen at work. What light 🤣

[@leftyo9589]

@@WN_Byers ray charles cant see it either!!! LOL

[@WN_Byers]

@@leftyo9589 😭 "You got the right one, Bab-ay!"

[@PigPharmaceuticals]

I was just thinking about this yesterday because I watched Hunter Constantine’s video on grip pressure, where he states he is using 100% grip pressure at all times from both hands to try and stop recoil - which is the exact opposite of what you recommend. Clearly it works for him but it makes me wonder if he’s succeeding because of his grip or despite it. I also wonder if there are some people who genuinely could do better with that style of grip.

[@jimmeyers8960]

I've noticed the better my trigger pull, the less grip pressure I need. Obviously, there's a minimum required to maintain a good grip, but in my case, at my level, "extra" grip pressure allows for a less-than-perfect trigger technique. Especially when shooting quickly, because the tendency (for me) is to be sloppy with trigger. The upside of this is, if I'm working too hard, if I'm getting tired trying to grip, I know I need to reboot and concentrate on trigger.

[@enj01sk8t3r]

The difference in M class to GM, In your experience, is it more marksmanship/weapons handling? Or is it running a stage more optimally that sets those two classes apart? Like some guy has phenomenal reloads, moves crisp, gets into positions very well, shoots accurate .16sec splits but just did not hyper plan his run or some sloppy mess of a dude who runs the stage optimally but his fundamental skillset is worse. Shooter A is TECHNICALLY a better shooter but on paper, shooter B is superior.

[@mwileyy112492]

Audio was a bit off at the start.

[@clutchshot3306]

Thanks Ben for explaining that. Do you torque your wrists forward or just lock the joints when shooting? I've heard you say that you must hold the gun with your arms and really the rest is loose (shoulders, chest).

[@yarghhargh9345]

Can you talk about left hand shooting as a righty and what eye we should use when aiming?

[@jacrispy9603]

I was just in class with Hunter Constantine and he spoke about how his grip is basically crushing with both hands. I normally subcribe to more of what Ben says on grip. I tried Hunters way and struggled some but in watching Hunter he is a monster shooter. So im guessing grip and how one describes it is fairly nuanced.

[@chrisdiceart]

Can you give us some thoughts on pressure? I've heard you say "Relax the firing hand" - Is that just more relaxed than the support had like - 60/40 -> Support / Firing hand. Or are you taking it farther? If so, how far do you take it? 90/10? 🙂

[@HWG-wm8ld]

Definitely not 90/10.

[@TheDuppyman]

I have never figured my grip been shooting competition for 10 years. Probably need to take your class when you come to my range. I can consistently finish top 10 at my local match because I am athletic and fast. But I will be down 30 points when the match winner will be down 10.

[@seanmccurdy94]

Assuming you have a master grip on your gun, how do we train eye speed to track the dot on those further targets and maintain a fast split time? Do you run bills up close or shoot a tuxedo at 30? What would you do?

[@seann2769]

Narrator: the audio was not okay.

[@dn1715]

Would also like to hear your thoughts on Bob Vogel's grip (or Hunter Constantine's). And not what this video is about... but followed the Glock performance trigger saga and wonder if it would be a reasonable upgrade for someone who shoots only around 200 rounds per week.

[@maxwellcox2844]

Love the topic, curious your thoughts on a video GM hunter constantine put out on grip. Seems pretty opposite from what you preach. Love the channel and all your insights!

[@benjaminchase367]

After hearing all the talk about grip pressure I went to the range to try and see what I liked and didn’t I found that when my strong hang was loose my trigger press because much harder to maintain good consistency I then tried a higher gripped support hand with emphasis on making sure all of the grip was covered by my palms I then found there to be no muzzle flip but either would over drive or under drive my support grip causing it to push laterally Finally got pissed with how nothing was working and griped it like I was trying to crush the grip and my doubles and trigger press because much much better

[@onpsxmember]

But for how long and how consistent is that over matches if you need so much force? How does it fare in strings of 5-8 shots? Make one change and test longer to tweak it. Changing too much too quickly makes one mad.

[@benjaminchase367]

@@onpsxmember true But also as of now I am kinda in the mindset that in an average match you are shooting for like 90 seconds all together split up between each stage. So why do we say move aggressively like you are out of breath because it’s just a single stage then you get a break But for grip we say you want to be somewhat relaxed so you don’t fatigue yourself Like why not use the same logic of giving 100% for the 20 seconds of the stage and just recovering after

[@fudj12]

Do you have any exercises you like for building grip strength or is dry firing at your true firing grip pressure going to build your grip strength enough. My grip feels like it's loosening up after 10 or so very aggressive shots with sub .30 transitions and sub .20 second shots. I don't really go to the gym or anything but would be curious what you do.

[@HWG-wm8ld]

Get some 1-1.5lb dumbbells and plates. Do wrist exercises at different angles. You want high reps and never to failure. With Ben’s gun maintenance program and diet, i doubt he does anything.

[@galankaufmann]

I've been consitently shootng off toward my support side when I try to speed up. When I tried drawing an pointing at my target with my eyes closed I end up pointing way off towards my support side. To try to fix this, I've adjusted my supporet hand grip farther back on the grip (so that there is zero grip visible between my two hands and pushing more with my support hand and less with my primary hand. It seems to fix the issue. Do you think I'm on the right track?

[@hunterthompson6295]

Audio is shaky/breaking up at the beginning. But sound goods majority of this Video.

[@buckley123]

What is your preference on wrist angle? Everyone agrees to get as high up on the gun as possible, but from there, some good shooters advocate placing the wrist so that the hand is straight from index finger (when pointed) to elbow. Others seem to turn the hand outward a bit to keep the heel of the palm right behind the gun, and put the finger in a more natural angle to bend and pull the trigger. What do you think is best?

[@HWG-wm8ld]

Do what works best for you. Those extreme bends will likely lead to arthritis from straining the ligaments and tendons.

[@Daedalus1650]

Audio is still bad

[@DBossSTL]

Hey man, bean a decent pistol shooter. Never competed. Was thinking about it. Buddy got a PDP Pro and raved about it. I shot it. Every shot was amazing. He called it the Cheat code. So I got one. Now I’m been following u for six months and wanting to compete. U talk about getting as much flesh on the gun with the support hand. I can’t get much meat on the gun with my support hand. Got the biggest straps on it and still can’t get that meat on it. Do I bail on the gun? My Glock 34 fits like a dream. I think screwed up with the PDP. What u say?

[@xp_pk]

In the language of optimization algorithms, this would be called the local vs the global maxima. You can reach a local maximum by honing a process to the most performant version of itself but it may not be absolute best out of all other possible processes. This would require stepping down from your local maxima process to a whole new (and perhaps unintuitive) process and exploring the maximum you can achieve with it. While it may be worse than the local maximum in the beginning, once developed, it can reach a level of performance much higher than everything else.

[@SilasWeber-oi2gb]

Will there ever be a good shooting sport in the Olympics?

[@HWG-wm8ld]

No, the Olympics is clearly anti gun.

[@dropmeA]

RIP microphone

[@10beerman]

Hi Ben. Over in the UK we can only have 22LR semi pistols. Many of us have chosen the CZ Kadet (from Shield/KMR) as its as close to a centerfire Shadow as we can get when we venture overseas and have to hire/ rent/ borrow a "proper shoota". Whats the best grip style we can adopt with our very forgiving Kadets that will help when we come over the pond to the free-world.?

[@jimmeyers8960]

In your case, if you can get it in your country, definitely try the Ace XR shooting sim. I have it, and membership in an outdoor "flat" range where I can move and shoot. The Ace XR gun dynamics are very realistic, to the point grip and trigger are just as important in the sim as in the real world. The dry fire practice I do in the sim translates directly to the Walther PDP full size with factory 9mm ammo I shoot at the range. Anecdata, I know, but I'm very happy with the shooting sim as dry fire practice. Do it nearly every day. It's fun. :) And you can shoot guns you might not be allowed to own there.

[@10beerman]

I'll look out for it. If not available in the UK I'll see If I can get get it in the States and bring it home. 👍

[@stevetazphoto]

What does it take to be a champion pistol shooter?

[@HWG-wm8ld]

Taking selfies with sunglasses on.

[@hunterknudtson5213]

Just started 2 gun competitions and very new to pistol shooting. What even is the correct the grip pressure?

[@HWG-wm8ld]

Did you miss the video

[@A1life1]

Audio still bad 😆

[@690sm]

Message to that M class... 🤔Hmm... 5 to 7 yards and not looking at the sights.. Gripping it and ripping it.. Wait until you shoot nationals and they give you half of the headbox with a no shoot and it is 5 yards....it won't work man.. 😅 Doing that doesn't mean you will win consistently... You will beat plenty of locals no doubt.. But when you come out to high level match.. I wish you well 😅.. 15 yards and you ease off pressure... Wow... Try shooting ipsc match where they give you 35 or 40 yards with partials.. 😅..

[@thedude54]

I started shooting pistols with no training. Doing so I adopted the finger over trigger guard grip. Works well for me and feels natural, would I benefit from switching my grip to index finger under the trigger guard?

[@HWG-wm8ld]

Can you squeeze something more with three fingers or four?

[@thedude54]

@@HWG-wm8ld I pull back with my index on the trigger guard. I also run lights on some guns, since no room for my finger I grip it the traditional way also. I just find it more comfortable to have my finger over the guard.

[@onpsxmember]

Nobody can tell you that without seeing you shoot + data. It highly depends on your hands and the size and shape of the trigger guard if you can exploit that. Some really grip with that finger, some just get it out of the way to rest it there and move the hand further up. Test both grips for several weeks and tweak it, film yourself, write down drill times and what you saw in recoil and on paper. A grip under it wopks on more models even if you have to modify it.

[@leftyo9589]

try both ways, and see what works best for you.

[@mygoodsir539]

ben i think youve gotta get a new mic

[@havegregory]

audio sucks!

[@olasaven245]

Mic sucks

[@Mako-sz4qr]

2nd

[@Platoon_Guide]

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