Dojo Talks: Handshakes

[@aidangrubb1233]

Never thought I’d see an almost hour long podcast about handshakes

[@jeretavius]

I love how Philidor occasionally shows up in the thumbnails and even shaking David's hand for really supporting him on the Best Players of All Time episode.

[@SunbeamSmiles]

It's crazy to me that at chess tournaments during winter's flu (and now covid as well) season we're all shaking hands because of tradition

[@davidwagner6116]

Thanks guys, your conversations are great fun!

[@bestieboots]

I REALLY like the argument that something compulsory is not meaningful. Also, when respectful acts are compulsory people find ways of being disrespectful anyways - you give them the dead fish handshake. ::shudders:: I think that was mentioned in the video.

[@bestieboots]

One thing I will say, there are strong biases with regards to who gets taught how to give handshakes and the culture and ethos surrounding it.

[@Boss.Stephen]

48:54 David's hypothetical scenario caught me off guard. And then Jesse at 49:26... 😆

[@Sitbear]

If my opponent arrives late to the game, I always try to interrupt his rhythm by extending my hand just before he makes his first move. Gotta do a strong hard handshake to squeeze those extra seconds off the clock!

[@cooloutac]

I guess thats a case for ignoring the handshake lmao.

[@LBurou]

Great discussion, thank you :-) To shake someone's hand is a show of respect. If you wanted to disrespect someone, yet follow the rules, you could shake hands wearing a nitrile glove, then remove it. In light of this discussion, Carlson's making the first move and resigning speaks volumes.

[@Shoto_Mist]

1st round my last tournament opponnent started clock with no intention of shaking my hand. Had to think to myself, do i offer a handshake or make my first move? If that was part of his prep or a psychological tactic it worked cus i was already angry on my first move

[@quryo5351]

did u lose?

[@ishanr8697]

You gotta shake. It's like "whatever else happens, this game is a fair battle".

[@cooloutac]

I feel amateurs playing without a set start time should always shake before hitting the clock to signify all parties are ready. Its sportsmanship. But in a professional tournament setting I don't see the need for it to be mandatory.

[@allippincott]

Tend to think along the lines of one of David's earlier points: in pretty much all cases I want to follow these conventions and if I'm thinking whether I'll shake hands I probably ought to have asked myself if it's appropriate to play vs them in the first place

[@cooloutac]

There is only so many opportunities to make money playing chess, and some are even dependent on it.

[@seanhunter111]

This is a thing in tennis at the moment. Ukrainian players won't shake Russian or Belarussian players hands or do photos before the match with them as a protest. Several of the Russian players have come out in support of it.

[@stevenanderson9881]

After winning that game Short said "There is a god and he is not Bulgarian"

[@paulgottlieb]

Karpov was almost certainly under orders not to shake hands with Korchnoi

[@kdub1242]

I'm European, so I usually insist on a little kiss on both cheeks as a greeting.

[@Extirpo]

Good discussion thx. Im happy that there is agreement on no handshake to Karjakin. (and totally on board with Kostya on Short). EDITH : obviously misunderstood Jessie who would shake hands even with Putin 👎

[@DaydreamVacations]

In all communities, the culture matters Whether it’s a sports group, corporation, religion, etc. Chess has a long-standing culture of respect. I agree it is similar to the Olympics I’m going to play a game or match against you I will shake your hand, no matter what If my objection is really that strong, I will refuse to play you and accept the consequences

[@klausfiedler64]

What even qualifies as a handshake? Some of the fleeting nano second fingertip swats that I'm seeing would require high speed photography to determine if actual contact was even made. Certainly nothing that resembles a "hearty" handshake.

[@cooloutac]

you should see cfn pinkamena vs cfn fatality. They are two sisters who stream on youtube and they used to do wild handshakes with each other in their chess club tourneys in Moscow. I have not seen them do it in a while but it was hilarious. Sometimes little pinkamena when shaking hands with an adult would pretend the adult was not letting go and hurting her hand hahahah. Some of the people in th comments would not know it was a joke hahah. THe other day a kid on their channel was playing games moving his hand away from the adult when he attempted handshake. The adult immediately hit clock and you can tell he was annoyed. Later on he complained to arbiters lol.

[@cooloutac]

check out this one. Fatality (2002) vs Pinkamena (1710). Chess Fight Night. CFN. Blitz

[@RichACBlues]

Fatality (2002) vs Pinkamena (1710) check out this one. lol

[@klausfiedler64]

@@RichACBlues Yeah, let's force Kramnik and Topalov to do that.

[@RichACBlues]

@@klausfiedler64 If they could do that handshake i would be impressed lmao

[@tobiass3540]

I mean, I never refused to shake hands, and I gladly shake hands even when someone behaves like a jerk after a bitter loss or something. Sometimes it hurts, we all know that feeling, so I think there is no reason to make it worse for another human being. But making it mandatory, sounds ridiculous to me. Imagine an 8 year old kid playing the first chess tournament and losing a winning position to a complete jerk who, after winning the game, proceeds to behave like an arrogant a** and maybe even laughing at the the kid. Would you really want to punish the kid for not shaking this guy's hand? Also, how would you punish something like this? I mean, if people really can't stand each other, they could even try to agitate each other to make one not be willing to shake hands to get them punished. Some people would really try to play mindgames like that, I have no doubts about that. So, to the question, if it should be mandatory, my answer would be: Hell, no!!!

[@chesscomdpruess]

very good reasoning!

[@Nemtomi]

The way to become socially unawkward is actually to admit that you're socially awkward.

[@cooloutac]

I can understand in an amateur tournament without as many arbiters and cameras, and with no set start time, that a handshake is used to signify all parties are ready to hit the clock and there is no discrepancies regarding someone not being ready. But what about having to shake hands twice? When sitting down and when starting the clock is that not redundant? And videos can give a misperception. I was appalled at chessbase India because Ruslan Ponoramiov was getting alot of racist hate because he did not shake hands with Bharath Subramaniam before hitting the clock at the world rapid and Blitz tournament. Chessbase India removed from the video where he sat down and shook hands with him. Ruslan came in the comment section and replied to one of the Indians that was calling him racist to confirm this. He said he simply did not want to shake hands twice and he gave head nod to signal to start clock. I imagine he was probably anxious and in his prep. and chessbase India has made no apology to him or even spoke on the matter at least to tell their fans to stop with the hate messages against him.

[@Nemtomi]

You guys might hate me but I'm not sure you guys understand the situation of Russia. It is pretty hard to understand it from afar I'll give you that. I don't think you should pass judgement on these people.

[@chesscomdpruess]

I certainly do not understand the situation in Russia. I barely understand the situation in the US! (That said, I believe that we, as humans, are always passing judgment on things and people we don’t fully understand, and then updating those judgments as our understanding increases. Despite not knowing the situation in Russia, I have a tentative judgment that Karjakin is a much worse person than average.)

[@Nemtomi]

@@chesscomdpruess basically all I know is that he is promoting the occupation of Ukraine (which in itself has all kinds of implications that are extremely hard to fathom). I'm def glad my comment merited a response and I do agree with you re making value judgments.

[@chesscomdpruess]

@@Nemtomi Yeah. I have a strong personal prejudice against wars, military operations, military occupations, and related activities. Another thing we know about Karjakin is that his youngest GM ever title was earned via cheating. The responsibility for that rests more on the adults around him than on a 12 yr old, *but* he has had a lot of years as an adult to come clean about it, and update the official record.

[@Nemtomi]

@@chesscomdpruess I did not know that, that's terrible. I agree it is the responsibility especially for all titled players to represent a straightforward approach.

[@ChessDojo]

We definitely don't hate you! Well-intentioned feedback is always welcome 🙂

[@MrSauri1]

Why is GM Short hated? What did he do?

[@Sitbear]

He said men are naturally better than women at chess, and therefore trans women shouldn’t be able to compete in the women’s section. Basically he supports segregated sections, but for only the wrong reasons and none of the right ones.

[@lazydetective4774]

What, is that it ? Does it make someone a bad person to believe that ? Scary. I might be a bad person it seems.

[@cooloutac]

@@lazydetective4774 me too. I either think there should be no segregated sections, or there should be. can't have it both ways imo.

[@johncreekpaum4998]

​@lazydetective4774 It goes a bit deeper than that though. Short is a former VP of FIDE and current FIDE Director of Chess Development, so his position is important to take into account. His comments weren't just "men are better than women at chess", it was pseudo-science saying men are biologically better than women at chess because men have more gray matter and testosterone is important to chess performance, while saying his personal defeats to Judit Polgar were irrelevant to the point that men are biologically superior to women in chess. He had the chance to clarify or change his position 5 years later, and instead doubled down saying men's brains were 10% larger, and whined that he'd been "hung, drawn, and quartered" for the comments because people were saying he was sexist. The FIDE Director of Chess Development believes women are biologically inferior to men in chess, and feels personally attacked when people are offended by those statements. That's a problem.

[@cooloutac]

@@johncreekpaum4998 lol ya I don't agree with that. I think there are alot of factors of why we don't see more women at high levels in chess and I doubt biology is a major factor. But I do believe it is influences and environments since birth playing a major factor and a man who decides he feels like being a women later on life I still feel will have an unfair advantage. I end up coming to the same result as him even though I believe it is from different factors. I feel either we don't have separate tournaments, or they are based on biology and not feelings. Because it will be seen as a facade. For me women tournaments exist to attract more women to the sport because there is only like 2 or 3 in the top 100 rated players. But if we are going to say they are totally equal then we can't half step around the issue. Remove women tournaments and let everyone play together equally imo. I don't buy into this safe space reasoning. Women and men play together in most clubs and tourneys in Russia and India and they have more women chess players by far. Do we want women to feel equal or not. Otherwise it will always be seen as a facade and once a trans person wins a tournament the issue will become even more controversial. Diddn't Judit Polgar refuse to play in women only events? She was right to do so imo.

[@KironKabir]

Fist bumps!

[@richardlu6706]

These guys give me big vanilla libertarian energy

[@ChessDojo]

Thanks for watching 😂

[@theemptyatom]

It is ridiculous - they should shake hands. If one doesn't want to shake their hands because they don't share their political view or something than why are they willing to play them in the first places.

[@Chill_Pills]

Were David and Jesse just being coy about the Nigel Short thing? It seemed obvious to me that reason that Kostya would have a problem with Short are his comments about women in chess. Of course lots of men feel the same way he does.

[@chesscomdpruess]

I think Kostya was the one being coy ;-)

[@Sitbear]

I think he doubled down on it as a defense of FIDE's transphobic policy as well.

[@shevek5934]

Seems to me that refusing to shake hands on that basis is a short step away from ostracizing players for expressing basically any controversial political or social opinion.

[@Sitbear]

@@shevek5934 it’s a handshake, not a credit score

[@oldman-badchess]

@@Sitbearmaybe he’s worried about the social credit score.

[@will_hargreaves]

What about if your opponent is a leper?

[@libertopian]

First 🎉

[@NoOne-so7jt]

It's incredible that you guys bring up Israel and not once mention its ongoing genocide of the Palestinians. If ever there was a moral basis for protest, now would be it.