Don’t oversimplify Mormon history | Response to Johnny Harris

[@CynicalHistorian]

Thanks for watching! Please consider supporting the channel by buying merch: cynical-historian-shop.fourthwall.com Or by donating to my Patreon: www.patreon.com/CynicalHistorian Click "read more" for corrections and bibliography. First, here are some related videos: Wild West myth: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fGWymZhve7prh9E Historian annoyances: kzbin.info/www/bejne/anuZeoOeetCMo9E Second Great Awakening: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZnLaeX-Ipr1mh80 Common knowledge: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5OViIONj5t-gKc *Errata* 16:40 Should be the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, not Land Ordinance of 1785 (thx @Yannis1a) *Bibliography* Alex Beam, _American Crucifixion: The Murder of Joseph Smith and the Fate of the Mormon Church_ (New York: Public Affairs, 2017). amzn.to/4ceNcOD Michael S. Durham, _Desert Between the Mountains: Mormons, Miners, Padres, Mountain Men, and the Opening of the Great Basin, 1772-1869_ (New York: Henry Holt, 1997). amzn.to/3VIV06d _Essays on American Indian and Mormon History,_ eds. P. Jane Hafen and Brenden W. Rensink (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 2019). amzn.to/4bOFsmJ Benjamin E. Park, _American Zion: A New History of Mormonism_ (New York: Liveright Publishing, 2024). amzn.to/4bQWDnJ Brent M. Rogers, _Unpopular Sovereignty: Mormons and the Federal Management of Early Utah Territory_ (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 2017). amzn.to/3z4YQOi _The Missouri Mormon Experience,_ ed. Thomas M. Spencer (Columbia: University of Missouri Press, 2010). amzn.to/3xb4ihI John G. Turner, _Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet_ (Cambridge, Mass.: Belknap Press of Harvard University, 2012). amzn.to/3Xeqzpi Richard S. Van Wagoner, _Mormon Polygamy: A History,_ 2nd ed. (1986; Salt Lake City, UT: Signature Books, 1989). amzn.to/3VvxsRU

[@snazzy]

15:46 1877, not 1977**

[@CynicalHistorian]

@@snazzy you should go back and listen

[@JediLordNathan]

I'm glad to see this video, at first I was a bit concerned going into this video. But I'm glad my worries were unfounded. It's important when anyone discusses history to do so in a manner that does not take things out of context, you see I myself am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but I am also a church historian and a man who has studied history as a whole. I've run into people like this who make arguments attacking my faith and the vast majority do so without context or argue in bad faith. It's important that when looking at the history of- anything to make sure you are looking at it with information from multiple sources. An important thing to consider though is that if you are going to be an objective historian personal bias need to be kept out as much as possible, also I'd argue that arguments fall apart if you lie by omission of information that doesn't suit your take on history. Also I'm glad that when it comes to your upcoming video on the Mountain Meadows Massacre that you are consulting multiple sources on the matter, it is a dark chapter of US history and unfortunately not an outlier the westward push of manifest destiny is full of events like it and its not specific to any group of people, an important thing to remember also is that it is wrong to judge any faith or anything for the actions of ancestors its based on collective guilt and assumes that the actions of one person or multiple individuals are reflective of an entire group of people, but its even more bad to argue that the descendants of people are somehow responsible for the actions of their ancestors I believe that if you are going to judge something focus on the individual in question not an entire group. That said this is a respectful video and its important to remember when discussing history consult multiple sources and don't make your entire arguments based on a few sources, also don't remove information in bad faith, have as much information as possible, do remember though that history is a complex thing to study and that when studying it there is usually plenty of evidence to argue any number of ways, I also argue that a lot of the arguments made to attack the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints can be used to attack any religion, there isn't one religion on Earth without its dark elements just like there isn't a single nation without it, this is due to the fact that humans are capable of good and bad by nature, do remember though that bad people by and large thru history are in the minority that good people are the majority of human beings, I'd also argue that the actions of people in the past are not generally not reflective of people today, people can make all the arguments about history and any individual or faith, do remember though that for every human being that choose to do evil there are way more that choose to do good, also remember that religions don't stay consistent, you don't see Mosiac law practiced in Israel nor do you see Crusades being launched by Catholics. The fact is humans change, is it important to remember the dark aspects of history 100% to avoid repeating the mistakes of people in that made horrible mistakes in the past, but when studying those elements don't remove context and important information, history is never black and white is its many shades of grey, there are good people, bad people and people that are just existing thru history, the actions of a few individuals are not reflective of a group as whole and especially not of their descendants, collective guilt is a horrible thing to apply to any group of people and if you are going to judge any historical figure, faith or anything by the past remember that the actions of people are those of individuals first and foremost and that just because some group of people did bad things in the past their descendants have not done this things, it's the main reason I argue against reparations for slavery because it is wrong to make a group of people pay for the actions of people that came before them to the descendants of people that were wronged when they themselves never committed any wrongdoing and the descendants weren't wronged in that way. I do believe we should strive to be better and treat others with kindness and compassion but we should never judge people for the actions of their ancestors, sure does my faith have a dark history with some skeletons in our closet yes, but every religion and nation on Earth also has their own and those elements should be remembered to avoid anything like that happening again, this is why when it comes to history taking the good with the bad is a given thing. But the moral of all this is that if you are going to make an argument based on history don't ignore information that isn't favorable to any argument you are making, study it as a whole and don't attack present day members of any faith for the actions of people in the past, it's a bad faith argument and results in suffering and can be used to justify a lot of bad things, I don't ignore elements of history but I never forget that individuals are responsible for their own action and oppose collective guilt, we shouldn't blame current day Germans for the actions of the Nazis or current day Americans for the actions of their ancestors. The fact is a lot of bad things aren't an outliers one of the greatest lies ever told is that we live in an era where the things of the past are beneath us, the fact is that while certain things change there are core elements of human nature that tend to repeat and denying that tends to lead to repeating those mistakes, humans have fought and killed other humans for centuries and still do, and we shouldn't forget that while we have made many changes over the years we aren't too far removed in a historical sense from the events of the past, remember the US is in terms of nations a young nation by any margin, the oldest Revolutionary war veteran was still alive at the time of the Civil War and the Oldest Civil War Veteran was alive at the time of WWI and the oldest WWI veteran was alive in the 21st century, granted long lived individuals but in the grand scheme of things our past is closer to us then we give it credit for. Anyway, thanks for this video when discussing history don't remove context its dishonest and makes it easy for people to refute your arguments and I've met far too many people that make these kinds of arguments and when they make them it makes it easier to refute them when they withhold information. If anyone is going to give their take on anything history related don't withhold information, and also if you are going to make content discussing anything historical remember that the people of the past are different from the people of the present and that for every bad thing in history there are many more good things.

[@yoweedmofo19897]

​@@CynicalHistorian Any update on when the Mountain Meadows video comes out? Looking forward to it!

[@CynicalHistorian]

@@yoweedmofo19897 long ways away. I just finished writing the script for the first 2 episodes about Mormon history, but only just hit 1857 at the end of the second one

[@phoenixshadow6633]

Leave the oversimplifying to the professionals, Oversimplified.

[@theshenpartei]

Yep

[@iraqinationalist7778]

Yeah

[@bohoasa]

fr lol

[@LoopysLeftovers]

so cool

[@MaterialMenteNo]

Oversimplified should really start to publish its sources tho. Sometimes I have found some claim that seemed off and I wanted to investigate, but it was impossibile to know where they got that from.

[@woodsmand]

Johnny Harris oversimplifies every topic he covers. I stopped watching him when he made a whole video about how America only has sandwich bread. Dude go to the bakery at a grocery store instead of buying the bread next to the ding dongs.

[@4noctua6]

Or the MLK and JFK videos

[@EnigmaticGentleman]

Issue is he hasn't been to the grocery store ever since the money started rolling in, either that or he's well aware his target demographic is rich white neoliberals.

[@Newton-Reuther]

He makes content slop and Americans are so desperate for free education that they eat it up

[@imacds]

​@@EnigmaticGentleman What makes this make even less sense is the fact that the hipster rich white neoliberal grocery stores tend to have a bakery and a wide selection of fresh "artisanal" breads and other baked goods.

[@razorboy251]

Came here to pretty much say the same. I stopped watching his videos completely once he made a couple of videos about topics which I actually had academically studied and knew quite a bit about and I saw glaring omissions, oversimplifications, or outright inaccuracies. Slick production, quick pace editing, and a head of beautiful hair does not an expert make.

[@ZornOfZorna]

Not officially a Mormon scholar but I have published a paper on the early history of the movement. And it is pretty fair to say that treasure digging/divination was common in rural up State New York. It was illegal but the Smiths were far from the only people in the Manchester/Palmyra area that were doing it. Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn is a good examination of the state of folk magic at the time.

[@jacobdevitry1570]

Yeah like wth is Zorn talking about... clearly a delusion member. COMMON would mean to most people that 25-%50 of people are participating... so it was VERY uncommon because less than %1 of people were treasure digging money seakers... How manipulative and deceptive of you... almost as if you represent some agent of evil...

[@iammrbeat]

This is misleading. Harris said it was "normal in society." Sure, there are multiple reports of folks digging up "treasures" in the Burned-over district during the Second Great Awakening, but there is no evidence whatsoever that it was widespread or "normal."

[@thatpersonmariah3997]

Out of curiosity, what’s your paper called? I’d love to read it!

[@plussum3255]

The video by Harris that really kicked it for me was his video on the cultural identity of "Chinese" where he claimed that this begun with the CCP which is not true. It begun with the Qing dynasty and was recognised by the ROC even before the CCP became prominent.

[@raychapman1134]

His economics video, history of mexico, this one, the one you are talking about, etc.... at some point it isn't accidental mistakes and becomes downright dishonest. That is how I feel about him at this point.

[@bccsivxx-xxivvii]

Dude is definitely on the fed payroll.

[@zeitgeistx5239]

@@bccsivxx-xxivviihe admits that he worked for an unnamed think tank. Which tells you all you need to know. You don’t get hired for a U.S. think tank if you’re an anti imperialist but you do if you’re an American nationalist or conservative.

[@bccsivxx-xxivvii]

@@zeitgeistx5239 wouldn't surprise me if it's one of the CIA's think tank fronts.

[@Miloxiaocelao]

This is kind of funny. I grew up in Shanghai, and live in Utah now.

[@nachoolo]

The use of AI art makes me extremely suspicious of any edutainment video that uses them. They are already lazy when it comes to finding footage for the video, they are probably also lazy when it comes to the information as well...

[@andmicbro1]

The thumbnail on the JH video was weird and creepy, and definitely doesn't fit the tone of the actual video. It actually put me off watching the video for a bit until I finally decided to see where he was going with it. Overall I actually thought his video was better than I expected, but also much oversimplified.

[@IgN5P]

The script probably was from an AI.

[@ThommyofThenn]

I'm wondering if people will stop using it for lazy shortcuts eventually. It's pretty obvious when it's being used and almost always illicits a negative reaction

[@haroldoftherock8973]

I've been skeptical of Harris's content since Tom Nicholas called him out for propaganda, and I take his videos with a mountain of salt I was optimistic about a former LDS member making a video on the history of the mormon "church" and wanted to contrast it to Knowing Better's video. But yeah I found Harris's videos to be lacking.

[@jeffslote9671]

Harris is notorious for reaching a conclusion and then finding the facts to fit it. His Swiss vs American gun culture video is rife with inaccurate information for example

[@oliviawilliams6204]

If you want not whitewashed mornon history check Naked Mormonism podcast

[@uninstaller2860]

I trust Sam O'Nella more than Johnny Harris

[@ThunderTheBlackShadowKitty]

Sam O Nella Academy is a highly prestigious institution and must be treated with respect. Seriously though, Sam does his research...unlike Johnny Harris. 😂😂😂

[@Planag7]

Truly, although it's been awhile since I've seen his channel update it's always nice when he does!

[@JorgeR2912]

For some reason I really like Sam's super low upload cadence. It's almost part of his "lore" by now and every thing he uploads is cherished by his subs.

[@Faustobellissimo]

What I regret is that Harris didn't talk about the negative aspects of 19th century Mormonism and of those few Fundamentalist Mormon sects that still remains today, like for example the lost boys, the violence, the brain washing, the power dynamics, the financial assets, etc... He just talked about polygamy, superficially.

[@Faustobellissimo]

By the way, Drew Binsky recently made a good video about Mormon fundamentalism.

[@JP-rf8rr]

I thought he did mention the violence and power dynamics. He gave a lot more attention to polygamy, but I think that's because 1) that's what they're famously known for 2) that's what nearly led to a war with the united states and probably had the biggest impact historically.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

What of the genocidal attacks on the natives?

[@JP-rf8rr]

@Duchess_Van_Hoof Yeah, he mentions attacks on native Americans, too.

[@SEAZNDragon]

@@JP-rf8rr IIRC correctly that Johnny Harris Mormon video was suppose to be part of a longer series.

[@mosscow6056]

1:27 Hey, look, tis me! In all seriousness, I very much enjoyed this video, as always. I have seen more and more critiques of Harris from the history KZbinrs that I enjoy, you among them. And, your reasoning that those with larger audiences and budgets should be held to a higher standard is one that I don't think many of us consider too often. Really appreciate your efforts and message. Please keep doing what you are doing.

[@jeremiasrobinson]

There are so many videos from so many channels about why Johnny Harris is wrong about so many topics.

[@lutomlinson1214]

I used to be a Johnny Walker fan, but the moment you do any deep research or examine his sources you begin to understand how much and how often he simplifies and dumbs down history. I like his style of videos but he needs to do deeper research and analysis.

[@krombopulos_michael]

In hindsight, it was weird turning to a bottle of whiskey for learning history

[@digitalworms]

​@@krombopulos_michaelYou ever watch that show on comedy channel drunk history? It's pretty hilarious! Might be able to find some clips on here!

[@robert9016]

His videos are intentionally misinforming. He does videos to bolster liberal ideology, not examine actual history.

[@CynicalHistorian]

Johnny Walker blue is amazing though, even if I prefer single malt over mixed scotch

[@MrGksarathy]

​@@krombopulos_michaelIt's like a Snapple fact.

[@drizztcat1]

It wouldn't surprise me if Harris has an active LDS member on his team because many of the mistakes in his videos match some of the sanitized history taught in the church.

[@sugarmag78]

I think he's an Ex-Morman himself

[@dwc1964]

@@sugarmag78 some ex-Mormons - the real apostates - are great sources for a lot of inside info about the Church. The question here is, how "ex" is ex?

[@MoosieFilms]

My guess is he has mormon family or friends that watch his videos that he doesn't want to upset. It's upsetting that he let's that taint the quality of his content

[@robert9016]

@@drizztcat1 “mistakes”

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

Huh? Sanitized version? As a Latter-day Saint who knows quite a bit about the history I have no idea what you are talking about. Care to provide example? Is the only way you can talk about the Church to hyper focus on all the negatives like most like to do? I found his explanations pretty accurate, but still with a anti-Mormon flavor

[@adam-obaseball]

I've looked at Johnny Harris's sources in the past. It's a huge portion (not all) of why I unsubscribed from his channel.

[@Crimsonrain13]

All I've learned about LDS I've learned from the KZbin channel Knowing Better. So far I haven't learned anything to the contrary.

[@thepeasantsofdithmarschen3507]

@@ABLEARCyour bias and agenda is clear too on your channel, does that mean you’re wrong?

[@ABLEARC]

@@thepeasantsofdithmarschen3507 if ones goal is factual reporting on a subject and if one represents themselves as an educator, yes bias and agenda do make you wrong by reason of deceit. Considering my analytics haven't changed, I'm going to imagine you DIDNT engage with any of my content and are just speaking out of turn about material you didn't examine. So to correct you further, I don't represent myself as a neutral point of view or reporter but as an active participant in the material I'm covering and produce. I hope you can comprehend the difference between a reporter/educator being unbiased vs someone engaged in evangelism.

[@arrow1414]

I love "Knowing Better"! Learned a lot from his videos on the American postal sevice and how a type of quasi slavery continued in America well after the Civil War. I haven't seen anything from him recently. I hope it is because it is a big project he is working on, they usually are!

[@emmaarmo379]

@ABLEARC there are only two mistakes I’m aware of in his video about Mormons. Bias aside, KB’s video is 95% accurate and is a great starting point for learning about the religion. If you disagree with this, please describe what you find inaccurate about his video on LDS. Bias =\= misinformation

[@thepeasantsofdithmarschen3507]

@@ABLEARC I didn’t say you were incorrect, you assumed a critique of your content where there was none. I was pointing out you can have a bias and agenda behind your content and not be malicious or wrong. I do not inherently find your content to be wrong because I think a bias of having religion be apart of curing addiction exists, if anything I find it to be good that you make the content you are making, but there is still a bias. If you were unbiased, you wouldn’t be showing any distinct intent that you think addiction should be helped with religion being a core component, you’d just share the facts of how to help with it. But the intent doesn’t *mean* anything you said is wrong. Deceit doesn’t exist simply because you are educating and have a bias in the content you are making, if the vast majority of what you’re saying is true. The Cynical Historian himself has a bias in much of the content he makes and admits to as much, but still remains factual.

[@AgentBirdnest]

I haven't seen Harris' video, and based on the clips shown here, his style doesn't look like it's something I'd like. But in any case, this video was fascinating. I grew up Mormon, and suffered *severe* scrupulosity, until I gave up on the church at age 21 (fifteen years ago.) I've learned plenty of truths since then, but this video still taught me some new and interesting stuff. Thanks for the interesting info, Cypher! Here's what I learned today: - Smith left Kirtland because his bank failed. I didn't know he had a bank. I still thought he left because of persecution, until just now. - Local hero Porter Rockwell (my hometown has a statue of him and a restaurant named after him on Main Street) guided a massive massacre against the Shoshones. - About half of Young's infractions as governor that you mentioned. (I never knew about attacking fur trappers, preventing apostates from leaving, and the murder of a judge.) - I had no idea that the US gov disincorporated the LDS church! That's a mindblower. I was under the impression that the church ended polygamy just so that Utah could achieve statehood. I'll be reading more about the Edmunds-Tucker act today. I'm unfamiliar with it. Keep up the great work, Cypher. Your videos are excellent quality, and truly invaluable to anyone wanting to learn about these topics. I'm really looking forward to your other Mormon videos. I might end up upgrading my Patreon tier, because I wanna see 'em now. :-P

[@corgg2]

A few points. The Kirtland bank was not the only bank, there was a massive US financial crisis. I did a quick look and around 40% of all US banks failed during a period after the Panic of 1837 started. The LDS Church reincorporated under a different corporation in 1916 until it was reorganized in 2019.

[@marklittle8805]

Porter Rockwell was the Mormon's answer to a Che Guevera...he was a hitman essentially for the Church. If Mormon's really understood what he did, I wonder how they would view the Church?

[@wildfiregx]

If you watch a Video on the history of the LDS better than Harris’s watch Knowing Better. He has a great one.

[@Crimsonrain13]

@@wildfiregx I really enjoy KB's work. It's easy to ingest and can also be fun.

[@Austin-gj7zj]

KB gets a bit too into the weeds with his characters and costumes for me, but once he actually gets into the history it's very thorough

[@Crimsonrain13]

@@Austin-gj7zj lol yea, his ability to character act could use some tweaking.

[@Ruosteinenknight]

​@@Crimsonrain13He's somewhat self-aware of it at least. When he did this one civil war piece where he intended to do dress up his "other self" knocked on the door and told him not to. "Do you really want entire comment section be filled with people, who are saying how Atun-shei did it better?"

[@rowanmurphy4986]

He’s a Zionist and did war crimes in Iraq lol

[@dragonviruz]

@26:03 As a multidisciplinary Historian and scholar who has to juggle between styles, I 100% agree with this take. Based C.M.S. Supremacy over virgin MLA/APA 'Soy-tation'!

[@thepeasantsofdithmarschen3507]

I’ve always kinda found Johnny Harris to be in the similar sphere of misinformation channels that leaves out a lot of info or weaponizes language to give the audience the wrong idea of whatever they’re talking about. But he got cut a lot of slack because it’s harder to point out or not as obviously malicious as the more conservative channels. Honestly I feel you went too easy on him here

[@randomchannel-px6ho]

Look at who was behind his video on China and maybe second guess that assertion Methinks Harris never actually left the corpo media world

[@JakeBolt]

Johnny Harris made a two part video about Breakfast that reads like a spoiled upper middle class kid discovering that other people in other countries have breakfast. Not once, during this entire two part video, did he ever consider the fact that most adults do not eat breakfast. Not only that, he tried to claim that Eggs could only be scrambled, like… what?

[@soryabuscompany]

15:10 The Salt Lake Temple was built over a period of 40 years, it was one of the first buildings planned in Salt Lake. So even though it wasn't the first finished temple in Utah, it was the first to start construction.

[@Walzian0]

I’m an ex-Mormon and so much of what Johnny over simplifies is likely a remnant of how he was taught Mormon history within the church. For example, Joseph Smith’s “treasure hunting” and other folk practices are taught as normal for the time. The narrative of Mormon persecution is over inflated to obscure the dissent and violence that existed within the early church. And the downplaying of violence as isolated events caused by rogue actors. Just a reminder of the importance of good history, as lack of nuance is used as a method of control.

[@hkandm4s23]

Came to say the same. He's likely still deconstructing and as that's a bit of a lifelong ordeal, some areas haven't quite gotten there yet or will be total blind spots.

[@advisorywarning]

“Remnant” lmao that made me chuckle… but yup as an ex Mormon it was 100% obvious that he was trying so hard not to offend members of the church, to the point of overly sanitizing its history. It’s time the church taught the truth about our very fascinating and horrifying history and let the chips fall where they may. Surely there will still be plenty of members who choose to stay in the church for a variety of reasons.

[@MI-wc6nk]

Johnny Harris is and was a clickbait non-accurate channel, nothing new. unfortunately most are not aware/care, as long as it has nice graphics and attractive voice :/

[@ThunderTheBlackShadowKitty]

Johnny Harris is effectively a propaganda puppet for center-right Neoliberalism. He is the capitalist status quo.

[@MrTerry]

Great job following up on Johnny’s video. It was nice to see you go into more depth than the quick-response live reaction I did to this. You can tell that Johnny is still just breaking the surface of investigating the church as he is de-converting from the LDS Church. There are some really dramatic events he might still not know about. Like you mentioned, I think there’s a lot he has yet to learn about how things went down in Kirtland, Ohio. No doubt he would have wanted to mention them, even in passing (the Fanny Alger affair, the Kirtland Bank fiasco, the tar and feathering instead of castrating him by the mob in response to getting too “familiar” with young girls in the area). I think he wanted to steer away from the history that may be more disputed too. I am looking forward to his future videos on the subject as he continues his journey. It was sure fun going through the Mormon Church History Museum with you and Mr Beat this year!

[@CynicalHistorian]

Thanks. I wish we had more time in SLC. By the way, I'll be quoting you in the upcoming episode about that museum. Also, I've seen a lot of ex-Mormon commenters saying Harris's story sounds a lot like stuff he hasn't unlearned yet. Something that I learned from that museum and recent historiography is that the LDS church is actively improving the way they tell their story. What I've come to realize is that a lot of members and ex-members aren't aware of those efforts and are simply relying on what they learned as a child. Something to ponder

[@Mix1mum]

That stock footage of the girl smashing the TV with a hammer is a complete summation of my attitude towards pop history/alt-history. Bravo. I think Johnny means well, I really do, and hopefully he'll see this and take it not as any kind of attack but as further evidence he still has more deprogramming to do coming out of LDS, as he is. Maybe in a decade or two he could do what few can, and make a nuanced, detailed narrative of the actual history v the myths as were taught to him v his perspective distanced from both of those informational peaks. I look forward to that video, genuinely.

[@diegobaird]

If possible do more Mormon history videos. As former LDS it is hard to find good videos. I would like to learn more about it.

[@CynicalHistorian]

There's already one ready to go

[@jade-tea-h]

The LDS Discussions videos on Mormon Stories Podcast cover a lot more than just history, but the history covered is *excellent*, in my totally unqualified opinion. Also Knowing Better has a really good video.

[@joshuaswart8211]

I would definitely recommend the playlist on Mormon history on MythVision. Very detailed stuff.

[@Austin-gj7zj]

The KZbin channel Knowing Better has a good video. You might have to skip some of the fluff at the beginning but once he gets into the topic it's thorough.

[@cmrsnowflake]

Year of Polygamy podcast! Also Mormon Stories has interviews with several important professional historians that are absolutely riveting, deep, and detailed. Including a deep dive on Mountain Meadows, the secret Mormon meetings of 1922, Book of Abraham...

[@Newton-Reuther]

Johnny Harris is one of those people who is an expert in one area (if that) who thinks he's an expert in every area. Dude is subpar in most areas.

[@Austin-gj7zj]

I think the only expertise he has is in video production

[@andmicbro1]

As a Mormon myself, and Utah native (raised on not just Mormon Church history, but also Utah history) I watched Johnny Harris' video, and was pleasantly surprised that he did a decent job in some respects. But his covering of some events in history felt a bit...lacking? Oversimplified? Overlooking the key events? And then things like Mountain Meadows, was a bit baffling. I know church members aren't typically given a thorough lesson on Mountain Meadows, so maybe it's just Johnny's blind spot? It's hard to tell where Johnny got his info from Sunday school and Mormon Seminary, and where he actually cracked open a history book, but just chose to oversimplify. His videos are nice to look at, with great production values, but he's often lacking in the research department. Or if it's not research, it's a choice to omit some things. Anyway, thanks for this video Cypher! You're one of my favorite history KZbinrs, and I think you do a great job of staying objective. I'm far from anything other than an amateur historian, I've taken a dozen history courses just because it's an interest of mine, and I continue to watch and read history content because I think it's important to understand where we have come from in order to place our present world in context to understand where we should go next.

[@volodymyrbilyk555]

Johnny Harris still has a career? Dude just cant stop taking Ls after Ls

[@dwc1964]

not only that but he's on Nebula

[@A2forty]

​@@dwc1964that is even more upsetting

[@Kroke_Monster]

@@dwc1964what’s worse is when TLDR released their first issue magazine’too long’ I bought it just to find out he had a two page spread about China…. The guy who actively lies about China gets to talk about it as the authoritative figure. It made me so sad. Then saw him on nebula and wished there was a block button but sadly not.

[@jade-tea-h]

6:41 actually shows references to the Book of Abraham, which is a completely different work created much later. Published 1842. The history of the book of abraham is fascinating in and of itself, Joseph Smith claimed to have translated it from an ancient egyptian papyrus he bought, along with a few mummies, from a traveling showman. The papyri were thought to have been lost in a fire, but a sizeable portion of them were found later and actually contain ritual funerary texts. There's a lot more to it, but that's the gist.

[@SweetLibertyTravels]

16:53 I sing that line like Mr. Beat too! 🎤🎶The Compromise of 1850🎶🫶🏾😂

[@alphaxneo]

I used to watch his content because it's always been visually appealing. I took a break from his content because my interests changed but then was excited to see his videos over at Nebula - until I watched them. There's topics I know nothing about so I couldn't tell how much he was simplifying on those, but those that I had even superficial knowledge about I could tell that something off. I'm glad he's at least trying to include sources and enunciate what part is his own opinion and what isn't, but in the end it's still lacking and very wishywashy. There's numerous content creators that have scrutinized the sources and found various issues with them and the script itself never did him any favors. Even if it's his team and not himself, he should at least fact check or edit what has been given to him, especially since he says that these are projects that take a lot of time. These days the videos I enjoy most from him are ones where he actually visits different places of interest and interviews people.

[@arrow1414]

Truth be told I don't trust what Johnny Harris says on historical topics.

[@ChelseaHicSalta]

yunno, i think you're being far too charitable in asserting that harris' mistakes are just the product of compressing history, or just having a team or whatever. i would say that he often deliberately skews the facts to push particular ideological narratives. see for example his video on mlk, where he repeatedly claims that mlk's nonviolent methods had gained the civil rights movement broad support across america before he was assassinated. theres no way any legitimate source would have claimed this, as its well known that the opposite was the case.

[@randomchannel-px6ho]

You sound like a nut job conspiracy theorist to say out loud what he has actually done lol he's basically just an extension of corporate media

[@ulyssesvaughan464]

His video on the topic seemed to conveniently skim over the Nakba, so yeah

[@nomad155]

Wiat could you educate me then on how it got acclaim?

[@Yannis1a]

16:40 Did you meant the Northwest Ordinance of 1787? The Land Ordinance of 1785 set up a standardized system whereby settlers could purchase title to farmland in the undeveloped west, the standard for admiting a state from a U.S. territory once it achieved a population of 60,000, was established by the Northwest Ordinance

[@CynicalHistorian]

Correct. Thanks

[@cannibalskitchen8421]

I grew up in the LDS Church, and Harris's video sounds like someone whose knowledge of LDS history is primarily, if not exclusively, informed by lectures we'd get from Sunday school teachers. It gives me the sense that he hasn't taken much time to challenge the understanding of church history he has from his time as a member.

[@terpsichore21]

Chicago Manual of Style supremacy!! Down with the insufferable parenthetical citations!

[@desireeneil607]

Im super excited for your book. I'm a 4th great-granddaughter of John D Lee and am still working through all of the books about MMM and his journals.

[@caydjj]

As an ex-Mormon myself, it seems like Harris definitely mixed in teachings from the church about their history and actually researched information. The church twists the truth quite a bit, especially with the early history surrounding Joseph Smith, so it personally makes a lot of sense where Harris is coming from. He definitely should’ve actually done the real research before just assuming the church’s narrative was true

[@soonerarrow]

Although, I'm not familiar with Harris and his content, I certainly give you props for the constructive criticism you offered he and his team. Thank you. The reason I originally clicked on this content was that I watched the complete series on Early Mormon history that was created over on Derek Lambert's Mythvision Podcast channel a few years ago, which I thought was very good historical overview of the craziness that Joseph Smith used to birth that religion.

[@nathangale7702]

Nice video. The interesting thing I've found about a lot of ex-Mormon influencers is that they have the same misconceptions about history as many active Mormons, just viewed in a negative light. I'm a Mormon, and I believe learning more history and more context is the only way to really understand the church(es), and people can decide for themselves if the religion brings value to their lives. Harris is just muddying the water, as usual.

[@j.brycehidysmith89]

Thank you. I saw the JH video and had similar qualms, though I'm far less well versed in the period than you are. You are providing a valuable service.

[@trayne5151]

As an ex Mormon in the same age bracket as Harris - what he’s saying brings me back to exactly what I was taught in my teens at church. This narrative was also pushed heavily in the pearl of great price/doctrine and covenants year of seiminary. Those curriculums were controlled by the 12 apostles. It’s also compulsory to go on a “Trek” one time between ages 14-18. You cosplay as pilgrims for a week and they continually feed you stories that follow the church narrative. By the time you’re 18 they want all of this drilled in so deep that any other narrative seems obtuse.

[@KaitLynnHt]

The Nevada territory judge that presided over the Mountain Massacre investigation was a direct ancestor, Judge John Cradlebaugh.

[@CynicalHistorian]

The Utah legislature redistricted him to what would become Nevada because of his investigation into the Mountain Meadows Massacre. So much manoeuvering to prevent prosecution

[@KaitLynnHt]

@@CynicalHistorian Interesting. The Mountain Meadows Massacre tends to be a special interest because of the genealogical connection. I'll have to add that nugget to my research collection for my next time my hyper focus turns that direction. My maternal great-grandparents were Cradlebaugh and Schwalbaugh.

[@yrobtsvt]

Love it when a bad KZbin video falls directly into your wheelhouse

[@dwc1964]

ooh, you just reminded me of my all-time favorite example of this: Bench Appearo popped off about how "rap isn't music", and mild-mannered Canadian music theorist 12tone simply could not let that stand, and took it apart.

[@carsonchambers14]

As a former member of the LDS church i’m so glad you corrected the mistakes made by Harris. I know you put some links to books about Mormon history but what would you say is the best one or two books to gain a better understanding of the events mentioned in this video?

[@CynicalHistorian]

Depends on what you want

[@KDonhoops]

the first member of my family to grow up here owned a bookstore in SLC in the 1860s, the "first west of the Missouri River." I'm going to have to get into LDS history soon enough (he's the only member of the family to stick with the church, who excommunicated him after he said his lesbian daughter wasn't evil), it is good to know there are great things out like this to view, and enervating to note that I'll have to wade through some nonsense too.

[@Catmint309]

As somebody with an ex-mo partner, learning about Mormonism can be really difficult, so this is right up my alley! Really good video, there’s information that’s left out of even better histories than Johnny’s, I feel like I learned a lot.

[@ranmanfl5597]

hi TCH thanks for making history great again by your steadfast attention to detail and genuine integrity - you caught the fakery at the bakery. i wonder who he's making these misleading history lessons for. yours are a thousand times better 🏆🥇

[@bipolarrambling242]

I'm so glad I saw your video, as someone who knows Mormon history, that Harris video left me enraged. Thank you.

[@geraldmeehan8942]

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger until was father in law got tired of him scamming his neighbors and forced him to retire from this endeavor. He gave Joseph a chance to do something he despised, work. It was around this time the tale of the golden plates was hatched. Channel your inner Bryce Blankenaugle Cypher

[@schnitzelsemmel]

I don't think it's wrong though to not mention "the second great awakening" and just cover the period with a few platitudes. As with every historical era, the 2nd great awakening is constructed post-quem and the designation of a distinct and discrete time period separate from what was before and what came after ignores the historical reality that strands of thought that were important for this "awakening" have been out there much earlier.

[@RonaldoLuizPedroso]

If memory serves me well not the first time Harris make "mistakes", you are an incredibly generous guy Cy.

[@ThunderTheBlackShadowKitty]

Johnny Harris is RealLifeLore in human form. I'm sorry but he truly is awful. Not a good educator. At least he's not Whatifalthist or Kraut.

[@keepyourbilsteins]

CrackPipeHist has provided me with hours of hilarious entertainment.

[@richardschneller7674]

I'm curious about the cynical historian's education. I really appreciate the in-depth analysis of this information. There is so much more to American heritage that the average person never dreamed of. I applaud your efforts and will try to spread some knowledge when I get a chance. And I will whistle a tune while you dance on Wilson's grave!

[@bigredmed]

One of my ancestors were original Mormons and then fled Utah when it came up that Brigham Young wanted them dead. They fled to Nebraska and quit the LDS and there was a large number of other people in similar straits that also moved back to Neb. Would appreciate knowing more about this.

[@alanl.4252]

Any channel using ai in voices or images are a real deterrent and turn off for me. There’s so many channels and reels that use it here on KZbin that it’s hard to find anything new with a level of quality that I expect or hope.

[@tyreltyner8736]

Appreciate the video @CynicalHistorian as an ex-Mormon and history teacher it frustrates me to see history disregarded like this. I wrote my capstone paper on the enslavement of Native Americans in Utah during the early 1850s so seeing natives sidelined like this is also incredibly frustrating when their story needs to be told.

[@SamBroadway]

I missed his episodes on Mormons... I have only been watching him for maybe 3 months or 4 months... I find it to be a pretty good channel I love when Mr beat makes an appearance

[@mhlightable]

Could you review Johnny Harris' video about the 2nd amendment Cypher? I enjoyed it when I was watching it but now I have doubts about its accuracy.

[@CarrotConsumer]

Harris doesn't make accurate videos about anything. You should really do your own research if it interests you.

[@innawoods2131]

I'd recommend Matt Christmanns history on Mormons from his Inebriated Past series, analyzing the movement with historical materialism. Knowing Better also has a really good video on them.

[@ianchristensen9146]

Honestly thank you for clarifying things. I was wondering about the accuracy of his video but good editing can cover up a lot of ills. Johnny makes some good videos but they are often simplifications of the topic he's addressing.

[@poisontango]

Came for the analysis, subbed for the Chicago format. Footnotes rule!

[@xjoseywales]

Good video. I was curious how nitpicking this would be, but all your points were solid.

[@edspace.]

Hope the book goes well. I remember when we did "The American West 1845-1890" for GCSE History we covered the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints. One thing I never quite got was why the Mormons were so persecuted, especially since the USA explicitly prohibits government regulation of religion. I look forward to your future video on the topic.

[@ThommyofThenn]

The way the mic stand is cropped off made me double take. I thought you had some cool cyberpunk armour on lol Inane observations aside, i look forward to watching this. I really didn't know much about Mormonism beyond Ken Jennings being one, until this very year. I saw this movie called "The Avenging Angel" on tv last winter. A Western, this film outlined a bit of Mormon history and their Dan-ite warrior caste or something like that. It starred Barnes from "Platoon" (1986) as the main guy and Chuck Heston as one of the leaders. I found it odd that a frankly obscure movie had such a "star studded" cast and was intrigued.

[@lolbored801]

I was thinking about creating a channel with history as a subject. But I don't know now. I'm kind of afraid of getting ripped apart by you. lol As a side note. I really enjoy your content. Keep it up!

[@MaterialMenteNo]

What about Wendover Productions? I remember an instance where he mentioned a legendary episode about Joseph Smith as if it was a real event.

[@andrewstar21]

I love good faith constructive criticism. Some people get lost in the sauce surrounding themselves with nobody who will challenge obvious falsities.

[@DMU555]

Having been raised in the LDS church until I was about 13, I'm wondering how much of his glossing over parts of history and crunching large spans of time together are a result of old habits leftover from that being how Mormon history gets taught at least to young members, because that's how I remember it being taught to me. I know you mentioned he has a team working for him as well, but it reminds me enough of the condensed and simplified way that I remember Mormon history being taught to me that it makes me wonder.

[@Odin31b]

12:50 Thanks for pointing out the NM historical inaccuracies..

[@DavidWilliamsaz]

My grandfather was a miner in Garfield Utah outside of Salt Lake during the depression.. There is a huge plant there was also a large mine in Utah County called Geneva Steel owned by US Steel it operated from 1944 -2001

[@randstahl4869]

Grew up, raised children, and continue living in the subject state. The Mormon cult, the establishment church, has been central to life. Watching this video podcast presents a challenge for personal endurance. Now living life outside Mormon mind control has resulted with life lived free for living reality realistically.

[@201950201950]

I don't watch Harris anymore. Little by little I started to lose confidence in his work. The first one that I noticed had a few holes in it was the video about inflation. There was another but I don't recall it. I just remember thinking that the reliability of the information wasn't good enough for me to spend time watching his videos.

[@colinwilson3466]

Would you mind attaching a list of the movie and TV show clips used in the video. They seem interesting to watch.

[@CynicalHistorian]

Most are from LDS docudramas. There's three regular movies/shows - Brigham Young (1940s), September Dawn (2000s), Banner of Heaven (2023) - I pulling from memory here, so the dates are fuzzy

[@hoenheim94]

I spent several years living in Utah County, Utah while helping to run a nonprofit focused on housing homeless veterans, over which time I had quite a lot of experience interacting with the LDS Church and its members. I feel its worth pointing out that a lot of places where Harris demonstrates fundemental misunderstanding of Mormon history are points I have heard frequently from other members in discussions on the topic with them. As a former member, it would make sense that he might still carry some of them from his time in the church.

[@LillyP-xs5qe]

Cyper, could you go over the source lists of other educational channels? Like "some more news", maybe of one of their more historical videos, like about violence in the American police, or ragen, etc... Oh also knowing better did a video on mormens, be interesting to see you compare the two for accuracy and show of sources

[@CynicalHistorian]

Some more news isn't educational. Don't get me wrong, I like Cody's showdy, but its as educational as the Daily Show

[@LillyP-xs5qe]

@@CynicalHistorian what about knowing better? and considering how much background they give on certain topics, (such as when talking about police violence, historical labour actions, etc) I would say Cody's showdy is pretty educational, not to mention even the daily show can be seen as educational, if you go in expecting to learn something, or better understand a topic, I would say it is educational, being about news or comedic is just a style choice. My first year chemistry professor in university sure made lots of jokes during lectures... I would like someone to verify they are providing accurate information, at least. Others you could check be Philosophy Tube, Tom Nicolas, or at least check if they provided sources correctly and don't bend what it say, after all, much like how everything is political, everything can be historical (obv the level of political/historical something is exist on a spectrum)

[@CynicalHistorian]

I'm not taking requests and I'm certainly not complaining about my colleagues by request. Finally you have a very poor definition of education if you think merely informing people is educational

[@LillyP-xs5qe]

@@CynicalHistorian I was more saying it as a suggestion, obv it up to you, also I was just wondering if they are good or not, rather than expecting complaints I was hoping for mostly solid outcomes, as if they do a poor job with their sources I have done a poor job picking my content. And for what is educational, I just have a more broad view on it and expect high standards, within reason, I obv know the ad reads in cody's Showdy is nonsense, and he and Katy are friends IRL, however if they lie on the main topic, bend their sources to fit a narrative, edit interviews to make people look as if they did stuff they didn't, that would be something they shouldn't be doing, as much as you expect the today show to not do that either, much like I expect many random jokes from "Well There's your problem" but also expect them to get the basic facts right... though they def need to work better on showing their sources, though I ain't sure how relevant it is for a podcast...

[@SusBucket666]

Dude this is such an important video. I grew up right next to the where the bear river massacre happened. Harris isn’t a bad guy but man does he get so much skewed.

[@williammorahan4907]

Mormon History is the opposite of simple.

[@dispergosum]

It may be outside of your scope of interest but some of the church foster programs specifically with Native Americans are pretty interesting. Being from in Arizona I've heard "yeah growing up everyone had an Indian kid" on several occasions. The topic may be an interesting rabbit hole.

[@AHumanBeingNamedAlex]

6:45 those beliefs he pulls from were built up over 15 decades, not just the one Smith was around for

[@Maxaldojo]

You had me at, "The Compromise of 1850..."🎶 Also appreciate the CMS tout! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Cypher. I've watched and appreciated both you and Johnny for years. As opposed to just drinking the Kool-Aid, I take what I hear, watch and read with a grain of salt. I've recently had to take more grains of salt when watching Johnny. As a former member of the LDS (which I have some proximate, intimate and personal experience with Mormonism growing up in Willoughby and living in Mentor, Ohio most of my life) I thought Johnny would have an expert opinion and understanding of Mormonism. Maybe, he's just still too close to it to be objective or more factual and accurate. Anyways, thanks for posting this!

[@thehatofwin]

Johnny Harris should have stuck to covering ice cream machines 😋

[@e.n.strowd1949]

I have been watching this guy since I was 17 and now he is my teacher.

[@CynicalHistorian]

If you are in my religious history course, and the username is awfully similar to one student, please look at the first announcement that says specifically not to comment on any of my videos or my collogues. We do see them, so leave that to emailing me through official means. Glad to see you have stuck around though

[@raydunn8262]

Thank you. I agree. A timeline of Mormons snd polygamy would have been helpful. 1. Joseph S claimed he received prophecies over more than two decades. 2. The polagamy prophecy was confidently received 23 years later than his first.

[@Superchunk-k2h]

Hack youtubers like jonny harris always remind me how easy it is to shape public discourse with good editing because audiences care for little else.

[@DavidWilliamsaz]

The Missouri Wars was very similar conflict to Bleeding Kansas. Locals didn't like their faith and they did not Abolitionist Northerners to come to the state in large Numbers.

[@paulbwill64]

Wow! Im looking forward to your other Utah and Mormon vids!

[@MntDewEyes]

I don't know what the rate of treasure hunters there was back then but it wasn't rare. Divination and clairvoyance was a big trend in western NY in that time period

[@WHITERAGS]

Thank you, Thank you for a truthful account. Would you consider something medieval?

[@davidflint12]

Born and raised in San Bernardino CA. Lot of early Morman history here. They basically established SB. Logged almost all the San Bernardino mountains to build Los Angeles before they were recalled because Young thought they were going astray. They had a toll road in the Cajun Pass that I work on as a Boy Scout in the early 1070s. Very enterprising people. I was sealed in the LA Temple but fell away many years ago

[@missourimongoose8858]

Wow your a very old man lol

[@CynicalHistorian]

Not only because Young thought they were going astray, but Californians repeatedly threatened to massacre them in retaliation for Mountain Meadows and Young was also doing a massive recall throughout the periphery to concentrate settlement in Utah before the Army overran him

[@davidflint12]

@@missourimongoose8858 not old. Experienced

[@davidflint12]

@@CynicalHistorian great detail to know. Mountain Meadows was insanely evil

[@dwc1964]

@@davidflint12 I think you missed the "lol" - here's your post, in relevant part: "They had a toll road in the Cajun Pass that I work on as a Boy Scout in the early 1070s." (I'm pretty sure you were reaching for the 9 and hit the 0 right next to it.)

[@vincenzorutigliano5435]

Johnny Harris is an atheist Mormon, he's still informing his life by a lot of LDS myths and morals while not holding the supernatural claim's

[@anditosan]

Having reviewed Harris' video, I think a lot of what was said seemed to be much of the simplification you hear at church on Sundays and with a little bit more information, but basically 30% more of what you hear at church.

[@mr51406]

To be educational, content is much more important than form. I prefer your disappearing shoulder but substantial, interesting, objective lectures to his schmancy graphics but inaccurate, superficial prose.

[@CynicalHistorian]

I agree that content is more important than form, but that form certainly draws people in. While graphics and fancy editing may seem superficial, but it is extremely effective

[@71lizgoeshardt]

Upvoted just for your laugh with "The Compromise of 1850", I can't stop giggling and singing to myself.

[@CapeBarnes]

I liked that bit on the writing formats, as much as I hated writing footnotes.

[@DeeDeeCHAUNCEY]

I had so many problems with Harris’s video. Thanks for making this.

[@gallantcavalier3306]

What movies were the clips from? I saw Brigham Young from 1940 and September Dawn from 2007, but what are the others?

[@quedtion_marks_kirby_modding]

Tbh I never liked Jhonny's videos. They always felt like pop history to me tbh.

[@Latter-dailyDigest]

Church of the Latter-day Saints 😅🎉❤and I am glad for your video!