Double Sided PCB CNC Milling

Making a double sided circuit board at home can save you a bundle of money. Mikey describes how to use a inexpensive CNC to make a two sided circuit board. The process is easy to learn as it just requires a CNC, some tape and metal pins.

[@scrambledmandible]

Half the time I was blowing at the screen trying to get the copper shavings off the board. Lol

[@Thefreakyfreek]

soo true

[@M6MDR]

yeah and it's not good when you're rolling a cigarette on the desk and then blow.... DOH!

[@chriskoopa6310]

Dropping the bit is a genius idea. Thank you

[@adisharr]

Board came out great - nice job :) You're certainly right about the pricing on a small runoff from a third party service.

[@SKESE789]

Thanks for the tip of dropping the bit on the job tightening it and and then zeroing the axis instead of the old jog/paper thing.

[@ve2zzz]

At the sound the bit makes, it's more around 7200 RPM... Believe me, 30 0000 RPM would make a much high-pitched noise !!! But, this is only a detail... The finished board is nice, that's the most important thing ! ...And i am happy to see the results; i've just bought the same CNC that you use and am waiting for it to be shipped !

[@KorgBoy1]

Also, one extremely important thing that nobody on the internet seems to tell us about is....... this double sided pcb milling technique (that features this board flipping method) will only work properly if the spindle is properly adjusted so that the spindle's rotating column is perpendicular to the cutting surface. Because you can imagine what happens when you pre-drill the pcb alignment holes for the case where the spindle column isn't perpendicular. The problem will be that the alignment holes won't line up properly when you flip the pcb over --- this is because the hole opening on one side of the board will be offset by a 'tad' (due to drilling at a slight angle) in relation to the opening on the other side. So, if the drill bit is on this particular exaggerated angle "\" then the top hole is obviously going to be at a different location relative to the bottom hole. And this is just along one axis. There are two axes (x and y). The issue will not only be holes locations being out when we flip the board. The other issue is not being able to insert the pins. That is, when one side of the board is used, then the pins would fit perfectly. Once the board is turned over, the pins won't fit .... due to the distorted geometry. So, this means proper CNC machine setting up will be necessary for this 2-sided pcb engraving method to work nicely.

[@letsgoBrandon204]

Hey I'm impressed with the relocation accuracy of those small pins in what looks like chipboard. I gotta get me a CNC

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

This is a Zen-Cart 7"x7" which costs about $300 for a the bare kit and $700 with all the options and shipping. It includes the 30,000 RPM spindle. Each blank is PCB costs about $6 for a double sided 6" x 6".

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

pcb design : gEDA gschem / pcb PCB to CAM : gEDA pcb export option Pick and place is a lot more complicated than my simple CNC can accommodate.

[@justincarr9618]

very cool. I live in Albuquerque and am just getting into pcb design and milling. great video

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

Works great for me doing plexiglass and copper. Two years no maintenance.

[@southpark5555]

I'm about to get into the 'world' of cnc pcb milling. Great video here (even though I'm like 5 years late after the 2011 video was made). I'm assuming that the cnc software automatically takes the 'flipping' of the board (for milling the reverse side of the board in stage 2). That pin method for getting the board approximately in the right position for stage 2 is pretty good too.

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

I used gEDA / PCB to design the circuit and generate the gcode. It's a built-in export option. I made the PCB on a Zen Tool Works CNC 7x7.

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

I run at different speeds depending on the depth of the cut. If it is a shallow cut I'll run as fast as I can make the mill go (1 mil depth). If it is a deep cut I'll run slow. I suggest making sure your board is well clamped and trying shallow 1 mil depth passes and doing up to 10 of them. This should produce a quality board and you can automate this process.

[@ShambhalaVillage]

Great Job, Mikey!!! Technology for the People, yeah! MicroInterprise based in home-based technology is what the future economy will be based in. I would love to print a board that controls two, 3/4 inch valves that uses two temperature sensor inputs and open/close-limit inputs that are adjustable each and can be inputed for each. That way the unit could be a flexible tool for biodigestor controls, algae cultivation and basic reflux distilation processes for many compounds and just water.

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

I use tacks in 4 corners and then flip the board and put the tacks back. The software handles the top/bottom and mirror issues so I don't need to think about it.

[@M6MDR]

One thing to note about lowering the chuck onto the drill bit and then tightening it is to keep the drill bit tip against the PCB as you tighten else the tightening process can cause the drill bit tip to lift off the PCB slightly and when we're talking fractions of a millimeter cutting depth, it matters. I prefer locking the bit into the chuck and then lowering the tip down to the PCB in small increments until it's touching the copper.

[@M6MDR]

Another thing to note is how far into the chuck you insert your V-Bit cutter. Insert it too far or not far enough and you can end up with rough cuts due to resonance which is also related to the RPM you mill at. The same applies to cutting too deep or too shallow. A friend of mine was continually getting rough cut results when milling PCB and when I visited to lend a hand I found he had put the cutter into the chuck right up to the end of the shank. It happened that the cutter was resonating in such a way that it was skipping along the walls of the cut leaving jagged edges. Pulling the cutter out of the chuck by a few MM cured it and he had lovely clean cuts.

[@didaloca]

That square through hole package in the middle was huge!

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

+Daniel Astbury Yeah, that is a sizable development breakout board that I used so that I could easily swap pre-programmed MCU's for firmware upgrades.

[@didaloca]

The Good Life Lab Ah I see, awesome!

[@NattybyNature]

Looks great, Mikey! Congrats on getting it all up and running. Can't wait to see what new water, temp, and cheese controlling boards you roll out in no time flat!

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

The drill spins at 30,000 RPM and runs at 30v drawing about 3A.

[@av6966]

reinforcing the desire for a cnc homebrew nice going!!

[@putinscat1208]

Very cleaver way to z it without a touch plate.

[@molomono9795]

You can also use the copper of your pcb as a touch plate, and call G38.2 or G38.3 manually in linuxcnc.

[@InnerBushman]

Another cheap and easy way is to jog manually onto a piece of thin paper sheet while moving it. When the sheet gets caught, you're on zero. Just remember to crank down the speed for the last millimeter or two :D

[@ipadize]

@@InnerBushman no you are actually the thickness of the sheetpaper above the surface of the PCB. And believe me, 0.1mm does a Lot

[@InnerBushman]

@@ipadize you're right. 0.1mm is a lot. For super precise things I measure the paper thickness and subtract it for better zero reference. I use the probe circuit for zeroing on my PCBs tho. Paper is great if you don't have probe input.

[@ipatt99]

Very instructive video? . - Very instructive. The running commentary really enhances the value.

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

vias are just legs from components I clipped and saved while soldering to other projects.

[@YGDTriplexz]

Nice solution to making dual PCB's at home, now I want to try it too :D

[@sloppygloppyjoe]

nice video, would like to see how you line up the second side, but also how do you overcome the variances in board depth across the pcb? i'm still having problems with missing track sections where the board is alightly thinner

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

It's a Zen Tool Works. The mill is pretty loud when cutting copper.

[@noviceartisan]

Oh, how times have changed! Can get 6 of those for $5 or less these days :D

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

resistor legs work great as the "wire" to connect both sides.

[@salomonjedidias]

I just bought a new CNC machine for this and other purposes!, nice trick with the Z axis bit, (I have two Extech 330 multimeter like yours)

[@jeffbeck6501]

Very impressive for 2011. ....and still impressive in 2021

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

F1 vs F10 is the feed-rate I tend to use. Depending on board type I will run my unit at 12in/min or 300mm/min with a feed override of 120%.

[@southpark5555]

Board profiling methods are often discussed - where an electrical probe is used to probe the vertical height profile of the board in many different locations around the board. This profiling method wasn't used here in this clip. Instead, holes were drilled for the initial step, which would then prevent profiling techniques from being used. Just wondering if there are techniques for getting double-sided boards (using CNC) that does profiling on both sides.

[@Tutoelectro1]

Ok, thanks for the information. I will try to see if that helps.

[@DR-br5gb]

Clever Z axis tip. cant believe I haven't thought of that yet lol

[@slowlive5939]

I used to do it but be carful the tool can go up a little bit when you tight it

[@DR-br5gb]

@@slowlive5939 Makes sense with the chucks. I have sherline collets that have horizontal set screws.

[@nraynaud]

good job! I think you could make a location pattern that has only one axis of symmetry (3 holes or a trapeze) to avoid any confusion when you flip the board.

[@handyparts]

Thankyou for that information it is great to hear from you and now the fans know how to setup there very own mill.cnc ! Thankyou once again

[@Tutoelectro1]

Great video. Thanks! Hi, I'm starting to make my own boards with my own CNC machine but I don't get quite the same results as you do. I'm using the 0.1mm carbing but is 10º. Also, I'm working way slower than you, like 6 to 10 mm / min. The drill is going 6000 rpm. Could you give me information about the speed of your CNC and drill? Any other sugestion? Thank you.

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

Yes, I went through quite a few bits at first. However, as I became more adept at milling they didn't need as much replacement.

[@foadyousefi]

Wow! nice trick to zero Z axis. Love it.

[@daninwy2681]

That's a lot of info on your blog. Looks like you're quite the outdoorsman.

[@valveman12]

I found your video very instructive. Nice job.

[@toolzshed]

wow amazing! that bed must be very flat!

[@dsedean]

CDO is kicking in!!! the drill bits not going in fully is killing me right now :(

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

Everything came through Zen Tool Works (chuck included). I etch at different feed rates between F1 and F10 depending on how precise I need it to be.

[@ulrichkliegis4138]

Hi, great work, and thanks for describing it so well. What is the nature of your CNC machine? Are the constructions details / files / description available somewhere? If yes - where please?

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

See description. It's from ZenCart

[@Tutoelectro1]

Great advices, thanks!

[@ianboard544]

Really nice. A comment - the commercial machine we used at had a shoe that kept the board flattened as the cutter went over it. A lot of the boards had a slight warp in them. What spindle speed are you using. The commercial machine we used had this little ultra-expensive Swiss-made motor that would go to 100,000 rpm. I am curious what kind of motor you are using.

[@schlaznger8049]

Nice video but could you tell me why you are machining with a jacobs chuck? In a machine show that is a huge no-no.

[@beenn15]

those component through holes are gonna be painful... you'll need to solder both front and back for continuity if need be.

[@DanielZhangAtGoogle]

Do you know where to get the adapter between your drill bit mount and spindle motor. Currently I'm using ER11, but want change to the type like yours. Thanks a lot, and video is great.

[@MinhDIY]

nice video for PCB CNC

[@TylerHarney]

It is a Zen Toolworks CNC machine kit. Really inexpensive to get into CNC machines.

[@victorcontreras7966]

This video is very useful, but i have a question about the 2nd layer, because you put the video when the machine is working and i can't saw how do you locate the origin, do you use the same origin?? from the other layer and other question, you drill the holes at the first time, why the holes first and no the engraving first ??

[@ParkourNerd]

Nice video. Would you mind letting me see what you did with the transform, rectifier, etc? Did you actually use these or did you just use another power supply? Thank you.

[@ProtoG42]

Great video! Thank you.

[@tomsiadj]

What kind of sofrware do you use to control cnc machine? Ps.Good job mate!!

[@neoton1000]

Заметно сильное смещение отверстий с обратной стороны относительно дорожек. Лучшим решением было бы сверлить до половины толщины с обеих сторон.

[@TheAalzamoram]

Dear please help me with the brand and model, where I can buy it

[@monolito8556]

I luv the reference points

[@handyparts]

Hi In regards to your video "Double Sided PCB CNC Milling " I think your followers and people leaving comments are asking What model Double Sided PCB CNC Milling machine you have and some information about it could you please leave details of the machine drill size's software used the board used how does it cost for a pcb blank size ? all those questions and some more info for your fans would help get them out there and doing the same that is if you have the time to respond to your fan group

[@juancarlosperezguzman4164]

Hola muy buen video, gracias por compartirlo, seria tan amable de decirme que Software está usando para controlar la cnc? Y tiene autonivelado? Gracias espero su respuesta

[@franklima]

What is your tool chain? PCB design: ?? PCB to CAM: ?? CAM To CNC: EMC 2 Have you tried to use your mill as a pick an place machine?

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

This is a ZenToolWorks which I made from a kit. It can do 10 mil reliably.

[@Vootshi]

7:49 What about holes at right down corner? Holes not in center

[@johnmoore5319]

it's incredible how nowadays those pcbs cost 5 bucks + plus shipping

[@9h0s71n1gh7]

very good and clean!

[@finster101]

Nice job. What program did you use to design the PCB? Is it ready to mill directly from this program or do you need a lot of post processing before bringing it into EMC2?

[@carlosufsmrs]

Hi... great video. What do you think about this CNC machine? I intend to buy one, but it looks too fragile!! Thanks.

[@ulrichkliegis4138]

When you flipped the board over (@ about 6'50"), there was a lot of dust and shavings on the top surface. Did you clean that off before you continued? It could be the reason for that incomplete corner area. I assume you leveled your machine bed before.

[@LordAnubis0909]

hey. little off topic question. what are you using on your CNC. what kind of motor for cutting and drilling. it's quiet and I need something like that. ty.

[@tecneto]

Hi Mikey! I'm a student from Mexico, these days I'm graduating from high school and I have to make a proyect about electronics, I have a lot of knowledge about programming and Electronics but the only question I have is Did you make the software? So much thanks!!

[@maherfazai4365]

perfect idea but can you tell me what software you used for send G-code? and what the Control board and power board? please

[@tubeblack49]

what kind of cnc mill are you using? Who makes it? Website link?

[@rubzyc1984]

what's the feedrate are you using during etching? Your chuck looks very good where did you buy it?

[@ve2zzz]

I've just bought one on eBaY... and am waiting for it to be deliuvered !!!!

[@Zygoat86]

they are called "T-pins" hence the shape.

[@bernardolara9042]

any information about the CNC mill used would be appreciated!!

[@RomellAlaman]

Nice job . Can the CNC do QFN foot print? Thx for sharing this

[@PhilippeChretienBasbrun]

Verry instructive video sir ... thanks!

[@tadythefish]

how deep is the milling? and what is the spindle speed (rpm), because i'm surprised how beautiful the tracks are and you didn't break the tip of the bit :) i spin the same bit up to 22.000 rpm so i can have the feedrate up to 500mm/min

[@brianreid5607]

Hi Mikey, i loved the vid... i recently downloaded a live CD distro of Ubuntu with EMC2 , do you use a linux cad/cam for your boards or a specific piece of software ? my interest is in engraving in small scale and your work really got me interested.. Thanks for the vid and look forward to more.

[@jordanjohnson714]

How about electroplating the board after drilling the holes? That the through holes and vias are connected on both sides. You don't have to solder wires through the vias, and you don't have to solder the through hole components on both sides.

[@merlin7766]

Jordan, so you have to electroless please the via’s first as the FR4 in the channel is non conductive. This is quite a complex step using Tin Chloride and then Palladium Chloride and then copper. After this process the whole board is electroplated in copper the standard way where the via and whole top and bottom side are plated.

[@merlin7766]

Electroless plate, sorry for the typo above 🙂

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

I use gEDA/PCB with it's built in gcode export.

[@RobertCasanova]

Hi Mikey, thank you for this video. I've one question, how can you sold thru hole components in a 2 layer board like the one you made if you have tracks from bottom to top or viceversa? I have problem with these because the drilled holes doesn't connect the traces like a fabricated PCB and if you try to fill the gap soldering, the pond doesn't cross the surface.

[@hbsorensen]

Robert Casanova Hi Robert - I'm doing double sided PCBs when doing prototypes for clients. And there are 2 ways of doing it : 1. If the components can be soldered on both sides do so ;-) 2. Insert a piece of thin wire and solder.

[@RobertCasanova]

Hi hbsorensen thankyou for your answer. With Choice 2 you mean adding a thin pond wire in the hole before make the join? Thx

[@hbsorensen]

Yup

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

Use a component leg through a via to create the bridge.

[@albertbootsma4503]

Robert Casanova 5

[@DrTune]

Great video! Also, thanks for editing out the boring bits :-)

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

The blank 6x6 double sided pcb's are $3.38 each. I actually prefer the single sided ones because on a simple board there is not need to take the time to do mill the other side, but the single sided ones are twice the price. Go figure.

[@southpark5555]

Great video. Do you put the through-hole via pins in yourself? Also, where do you buy those via pins?

[@ve2zzz]

To Mikey Sklar... Do the carving bits have to be replaced often ? I just want to know if i have to oreder several of them... Thank you !

[@davidmarks509]

totally awesome thank you for sharing

[@plasmaguy5]

Great stuff learned a lot thanks.

[@hololightful]

What is that CNC (router?)machine? Did you purchase or make it? What is the smallest pitch you can make with that?

[@soerena88]

which brand of cnc is this ?

[@CarlosEcheverriaOne]

Nice job man, pretty clean.. What do you do for connecting the visa from both sides of the PCB?. I want to start printing home made PCBs but I do not known how to connect both sides. Any advice on this?

[@CarlosEcheverriaOne]

Thanks Jan, I did my research based on copper wires and riveting tools, I found this good post to make it at home: hackaday.com/2015/02/25/diy-through-hole-plating-like-a-boss/, hope so it could be useful to other people.

[@nikre]

on one side the holes look pretty off the pad centers. have you assembled this circuit? did you have any trouble?

[@Thefreakyfreek]

That noise when driling the reference pins

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

more like long metal tacks you would use with a corkboard

[@mohitanand002]

WHATS THAT CNC MACHINE, ANY LINK TO BUY OR TO MAKE BYSELF????THANX FOR THE VIDEO M8

[@EventHandler]

How did you connect the top layer with the bottom layer?

[@sklarmgoodlifelab]

I added several vias to the design and manually soldered legs from spent components to create a bridge.

[@nilobortolotti7065]

Great video, thanks. Question, how do you manage the through hole connections?