When Words Won't Work: Self-Defense in Early Buddhism

[@DougsDharma]

✅ Check out this video next on whether you can be too passive in the face of harassment for the Buddha: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYfJYYWLhK2Nh9E 🧡 Consider joining us on Patreon if you find benefit in these videos, and get fun extras like exclusive behind-the-scenes videos, audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂

[@TheWayOfRespectAndKindness]

Arguing produces conflict. Rather than arguing, identify a common truth, and relate that to the truth you wish to share. The path begins where the person is, not where you are.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes that can be a good technique!

[@stevevest7206]

This is incredibly applicable to what we are seeing today. I do think that the Buddhist approach should also be the government approach. I also believe that it is wrong to view Buddhists as purely passive. Suppose I go to a Buddhist temple, see something I like, and just decide to take it. I would expect the Sangha to surround me and say you cannot take that. The use of overwhelming numbers to maintain peace would come in to play here. Suddenly I find myself surrounded by a dozen monks. Maybe I persist, so they restrain me. I would expect the monks to then be focused upon showing loving-kindness to everyone involved, even though they do not approve of what I am doing. Suppose I am persistent and it becomes clear someone is going to get hurt. I would not expect monks to persist to that point if they were unable to detain me. At some point the judgment has to be made that violence is not worth whatever I might have chosen to steal. In the same way, I think police officers should behave the same way. If someone has not threatened the life of others and does not appear likely to do so, then deadly force should be off the table. The police should have overwhelming numbers that discourage violence. But when it comes down to killing someone, it should only be to avoid greater deaths. If the police have overwhelming numbers, then in my view, the responsibility for the safety of the individual becomes their responsibility. It doesn't matter what that person may have done.

[@DougsDharma]

That sounds very reasonable Steve, thanks.

[@tormunnvii3317]

Couldn’t agree more.

[@clydebink]

@deleted user How would this solution apply to something like someone throwing all their trash out on the highway?

[@jarredhischemellor6489]

Apples and oranges.... Meditate on that !.......RM, pgh pa

[@johnwayner2133]

@@clydebink A fine?

[@liamgabriel6607]

This is my absolute favorite KZbin channel! You are an amazing example of wise speech. Thank you for the work you do!

[@DougsDharma]

Wow, thanks Liam! Glad you find it all useful to you. 🙏

[@gibranmalik]

Yes. A gem of a channel. I watch doug and also great vow monastery. Two very good channels.

[@tormunnvii3317]

Haha 😂 when you said 500 monks to restrain one guy, I thought i was hearing a reading from the Romance of the Three Kindgoms! Fascinating subject and presentation as always, Thank you 🙏

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Tormunn! To be fair, I don't think they were intending to restrain anyone, it was perhaps rather that there were plenty of folks there in case of trouble.

[@jarredhischemellor6489]

Early-history of Thera: Bullies in the sangha ? If so, it speaks to what i've found HORRIBLE re: human nature my entire life. Spent more time standing tall and fending off bullies than i care to recall. Time that could have been spent accomplishing greater, more positive/progressive endeavors. What could i have expected in a society of sick people. Glad i found Buddhism....RM, pgh pa

[@DougsDharma]

Ooof yes, bullies and trolls can be so draining to deal with. Glad you found your way out the other side. 🙏

[@bahadursunny1674]

Thank you so much, I wish the world had more people like you...... Sadhu sadhu sadhu 🙏

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks covid! 🙏

[@photistyx]

Very nice! I'm glad you mentioned state protection at the end because that was going through my head the whole way. That would certainly be a topic that it would be nice to know more about. The overall intersection of centralization of power and spirituality in the axial age seems like a rich vein to explore. Also, while, as you say, there is plenty of potential for editing out parts that don't fit with the narrative, it's nice that at least the narrative, and possibly the reality, was that, in a time of considerable violence and routine armed conflict, for 40 years, a group of thousands of people was able to get along with no more violence than once leading someone out by their arm.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, thanks photistyx. Keep in mind that we are relying on self-reporting, and also to be fair the sangha did see its share of violence in later years. The ideal is clear as crystal however, and that's a good thing.

[@TaylanMorcol]

On the topic of state protection, I found these two excerpts from MN 108 (Thanissaro), the first excerpt to set the context and the second excerpt to speak more directly to the point of state protection: I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary, not long after the Blessed One's total Unbinding. Now at that time King Ajatasattu Vedehiputta of Magadha, suspicious of King Pajjota, was having Rajagaha fortified. ... Then the brahman Vassakara, the Magadhan administrator, said to Ven. Ananda, "But where are you staying now, Master Ananda?" "I am now staying at the Bamboo Grove, brahman." "I trust, Master Ananda, that the Bamboo Grove is delightful, quiet, free of noise, with an air of isolation, remote from human beings, & appropriate for retreat." "Certainly, brahman, the Bamboo Grove is delightful, quiet, free of noise, with an air of isolation, remote from human beings, & appropriate for retreat because of guardians & protectors like yourself." "Certainly, Master Ananda, the Bamboo Grove is delightful, quiet, free of noise, with an air of isolation, remote from human beings, & appropriate for retreat because of venerable ones who are endowed with mental absorption (jhana), who make mental absorption their habit. You venerable ones are both endowed with mental absorption & make mental absorption your habit.

[@antiskill2012]

The use of violence is a noteworthy topic in Japanese esoteric buddhism, where the vidyaraja/myō-ō are highly venerated as protectors and enforcers of the dharma. They're typically depicted as fierce, powerful beings who will physically subdue or even kill enemies (i.e. other supernatural entities) when necessary. Fascinating to compare that with the scriptural basis for how humans should deal with similar challenges. However, most explanations I've read interpret the vidyaraja as metaphors for unwavering conviction in one's beliefs rather than a justification for actual conflict.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes this is always the issue with such beings. How are we to understand their actions? As metaphor? Or as reality?

[@rjh1909]

@@DougsDharma I think that is when Buddhism mixed with other cultures. For example iam very into Japanese mythology I love the hagakure. Its basically a book about living as if your dead. The western mind interprets that as depression and maby there is truth to that. But to really understand this we should look into how Buddhism adopted into other belife systems.

[@tormunnvii3317]

My own thoughts on this are that I would only rely on the State to “resolve” a conflict on my behalf as an absolute last resort. Why? Well I think recent events have proven that, in many contexts, calling the Police in certain situations is tantamount to violating the rule of not killing by proxy. We must always be mindful of the consequences of our actions, and practice prudence at all times. Life is the most precious and important consideration, we have a duty of loving care towards others at all times. Avoiding suffering is our goal, not Justice, Revenge, or Honour. That said, I’m not against restraining people who are a threat if they cannot be reasoned with, just try not to rely on the Sate as your first option. The warning I have expressed here was probably just as, if not more relevant to the Buddha’s time than today, as Anthropology shows that much of the “Authorities” of the day were just as likely to rob you as the bandits that roamed about. I would guess that the Monks probably had to look to their own defence (the walls that were mentioned), and/or the assistance of the local lay community for protection.

[@DougsDharma]

For sure Tormunn. Thanks.

[@christophergan71]

I think in the Rattana sutta or some other Sutta the chief of gods Sakka taught the Buddha who in turn taught the monks to recite prayers asking the deities for protection when they meditate in the jungles from demons like the yakkas from harming the monks. From here we can infer that if trouble comes from outside the monastics which can be life threatening, the Buddha would rely on a more powerful external source for protection.

[@germansozzi2187]

Ohh man, once again, thanks for talking or raising the discussion about things that many buddhist, followers of east religions or east philosophies in general, do not want to talk, or play fools, or give obscure, evasive answers... this thing this turns many people off, including me. So, thank you once again.

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Germán. Yes, those difficult topics often interest me. If I can find comprehensible and interesting answers in the early material I'll try to bring them out.

[@germansozzi2187]

@@DougsDharma Thanks! :)

[@theemoparakeet]

I'm a little late to this video and have been interested in the topic of non violence in buddhism. I find the example of the monastics having to go hungry or change interesting as i hadn't heard it before. I also recently read article that differentiated non violence and pacifism, which it describes as it's own philosophy. The article had started by saying that the rule of non violence was a teaching that lead to the others, similar to needing to learn to crawl before running. It also made the points that the buddha did not advise his student's in power to "abandon war­fare and protection of their state" as well as that the teaching to have love for the saw wielding bandits isn't a hard preclusion to defense.

[@DougsDharma]

Right, these are all good points. Thanks Emo!

[@chadkline4268]

In the rules of discipline, the Buddha said there is no blame for a monk that strikes with a blow to secure his freedom, which IMHO means any case of battery, rape, or torture. And although I haven't seen the reference, I have heard that the Buddha demanded nuns strike however necessary to prevent rape at a time when they were allowing it believing it to be a result of their kamma.

[@DougsDharma]

Interesting! If you could find references for these I'd love to read them.

[@chadkline4268]

@@DougsDharma the reference to the 1st is in the Vinaya by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Just search for the word defense. I don't have a reference for the 2nd case, I just read it somewhere along the last several years of reading.

[@adityamehta8648]

Hey doug can you do a video on negative effects of mindfulness, I’ve been meditating for a year now but i have faced this problem twice, where i’m very anxious, bombarded with intense intrusive thoughts and caught up in mind chatter. I am well aware of the fact that negative states of mind can get very prominent if you’re doing the practice right. But what i am going through makes me feel like i am going crazy, so for example I watching your videos and i think, i like this guy and my mind quickly goes and says “no you don’t” then i let go of the thought and another thought pops up saying “you cant ignore all you problems” and this is a never ending cycle. I know this is a classic case of anxiety but Is It mindfulness related, cause last i went through this I stopped meditating for a month and everything was back to normal. Now after 4 months i am facing the same problem. It’s really hard not the take the bait and let these thoughts go. Currently my mindfulness practice is on hold and i am only doing loving kindness.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for the report aditya. Personally I've never had bad experiences doing mindfulness meditation, though I have anecdotally heard of a few reports here and there, usually around retreats. But sure, if you find that the meditation isn't helping you right now, then do some other form, like lovingkindness.

[@defoperator7993]

Meditation should allow you to take right action to stop the causes of negative things occurring in your life… meditation is to help you make the right choices so these things don’t occur to you as much.

[@defoperator7993]

You should be looking for the cause of these anxious intrusive thoughts and see that if you take positive actions in your life they won’t occur as frequently

[@defoperator7993]

Meditation is supposed to make you recognize those thoughts so you can confront them

[@consciouspresence5880]

Mindfulness prevents negative thoughts it does not cause them. If you have negative thoughts then return to the present moment - what you feed grows and what you starve dies.

[@brandonf863]

This title is so relatable, really struggling with this. Have my like in advance!

[@DougsDharma]

😄 Yes, it's something I'm afraid we all have to deal with from time to time!

[@brandonf863]

@@DougsDharma I might've gone in with different expectations but this was very interesting to listen to, thank you for the great video! Also, since you might see this, thank you immensely for the guidance your videos have given me, I've become at peace with myself and this has changed my life and view of the world. :)

[@DougsDharma]

That's wonderful to hear Brandon, thanks for letting me know!

[@emersonblake947]

Thank you for this video :)

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Emerson!

[@lalalal7998]

Would you ever be interested in doing a podcast where you can discuss early Buddhism and invite other early Buddhist scholars to discuss their work?

[@DougsDharma]

It's possible, though one of my mentors Ted Meissner has had until recently a very popular Buddhism podcast where he interviewed scholars and practitioners on similar topics, and I wouldn't want to tread on his shoes too much. We'll see.

[@milkmanswife93696]

thank you

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@Polaf3456]

This is an excellent video.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks Ian, glad you liked it!

[@sagarbhave5483]

Thank you Mr. Doug's once again My question is someone is abusing myself at that time I can take action against them with kindness rather than mind filled with anger But suppose someone is abusing my family members to whom I love the most at that time how I can take action without anger and with kindness, it is difficult to maintain calmness in such a situation

[@DougsDharma]

Yes this is particularly difficult!

[@sagarbhave5483]

@@DougsDharma here again attachment comes into pitchure, I am more attached with my family, may be this is the reason

[@extyix1617]

may I ask what about sports wise? Where it is all in sport and violence is part of it. I’m very involved in American football and have gotten into Buddhism very recently in the past view months

[@DougsDharma]

Well I think it depends on how one approaches sports. Do you try to hurt or injure the other person? Or is it all in fun?

[@uuutuuube3691]

Even when its historical (which I enjoy) there needs to be an applicability to practice and I didn't find it that video. You did touch on a really interesting aspect just at the end regarding the state and buddhism - I'd be interested in what that might mean in terms of practice.

[@DougsDharma]

Well I think the practice here is that we all have to deal with difficult people in our lives. Considering how the Buddha and early sangha did so may help us to reframe our own intentions when that happens to us. But since each case of a difficult person is different, we can't have blanket recommendations. And yes, I think in practice the state has to have a role to play in order to make this all work properly. To that extent, unless we are somehow all to be enlightened the sangha's "safe space" will depend on outside power.

[@uuutuuube3691]

@@DougsDharma my Sangha comprises you, me and my girlfriend who is stuck in Thailand so I'm going to struggle to get hold of 500 monks 😆. Thanks for being part of my Sangha though

[@DipayanPyne94]

Namaskaaram Doug ! I have an important question that's been troubling me a little bit. Is there any mention of Buddha advocating for or justifying Violence in any way, shape or form in the Pali Canon ??

[@DougsDharma]

Not to my knowledge Dipayan.

[@DipayanPyne94]

Alright. Thanks Doug ! 😄

[@piratepartyftw]

Bringing many monks is also a way of demonstrating consensus and collectively shaming the ejected monk. This social purpose may be more significant than an anticipation of violence.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes that’s another possibility pirateparty, though it would be the case whether or not the monk in question was ornery and difficult.

[@peterhook2258]

so...walls and overwhelming force are the defense against wolves who are not able to be influenced by perfect compassion to leave the flock be. This is very interesting. It also speaks to the fact that some of the monks (or ecclesia) are skilled enough to wield such force. Perfect. I constantly warn those who believe that only love and peace alone will cause order and unity. Nature teaches us ..there will ALWAYS be wolves. Now the next topic...how to judge correctly and how to know when one is targeting his brother as a wolf to justify his own violent tendency.

[@DougsDharma]

Great point, though I would caution that the early texts never explicitly endorse violence nor harm. Physical force, in limited circumstances.

[@peterhook2258]

makes sense. thank you@@DougsDharma

[@upulieh]

Also, from what I know, Buddha taught sanga several chantings, such as Angulimala chanting in order to protect themselves against physical and unseeable harm. I wonder if there’s any more to these chantings than simply being self affirmations..

[@cardflopper3307]

i agree with many teachings of Buddhism but i also enjoy the concept of combat and battle especially in games and movies. I feel torn.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, well since video games and movies don't hurt anyone they aren't nearly as bad as the real thing. It's more a matter of taking care. I think if you're just playing these games for fun and they aren't making you hate-filled then there really isn't much of a problem. Especially for a layperson.

[@cardflopper3307]

​@@DougsDharma it's more tabletop games which tend to be on the abstract side with cards and wood/plastic pieces on a board. It would be a stretch to call these very realistic but I still try to stay aware of my habits. Your words were helpful thank you.

[@TheWayOfRespectAndKindness]

Should a person expect others to provide, or to accept what nature provides?

[@DipayanPyne94]

Doug, what were Buddha's views on Suicide or Euthanasia ? Any verses from the Pali Canon where he himself talked about it ??

[@DougsDharma]

I have a video on that very topic! kzbin.info/www/bejne/l2eVi5qMjKaBsJY

[@DipayanPyne94]

Oh great ! Thanks a lot ! 😄

[@AbhishekDabhanim]

I have read somewhere that buddha encountered a war between one of the republics and a monarchy. It would be good to see a vid on it.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes I do recall that as well, though I'm not sure there is a lot we can make of the story. If I can remember where it showed up I can check later and see.

[@arpanagarwal2524]

It was when Magadh Empire attacked Vajji Confederacy and defeated it.

[@yoface938]

People tend to over romanticize historical figures when the reality is that the human condition hasn’t really changed much for the last few hundred thousand years.

[@DougsDharma]

True!

[@Amar_monk]

Hi Doug! I wanna know about Buddha's thoughts on women and marriage. Have you done any videos on that?

[@DougsDharma]

Well I've done a video on women in Buddhism awhile back: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bmeXnKZ6hL-qjs0 . The Buddha didn't really talk much about marriage, I don't think he saw it as his focus. He was happy to give advice to families and so on, but that's a little different.

[@Amar_monk]

@@DougsDharma Thanks a lot Doug!

[@zenraven7x301]

This is a great perspective. This is why I've chosen to partake in a Buddhist journey. I only wish the modern world could truly embrace this mindset. The insanity of the far left lunatics, and the rioters, to the anger and forced violence of self defense of the right. Robbing stores, screaming at people, rioting, marching, shooting, etc. Solves nothing. It's only one side igniting another. In an endless cycle of chaos and friction. This said, for the current state of America, we need this. Liberals primarily. All republicans want is peace and law and order, The corrupt cops need to be delt with, WHEN THE OFFENDER DOESN'T VIOLENTLY RESIST, AND RUN, OR THREATEN THE POLICE OFFICERS. sigh.

[@DougsDharma]

There needs to be less violence, fewer guns, and more compassion for the powerless.

[@iwalkinpeace]

Thank you Doug! I find this to be one of the stickiest wickets in all my practice and study. Why would AN 4.111 not be relevant here? If someone does not respond to gentle, harsh, nor gentle & harsh teaching he is killed- this is in The Blessed One’s address to Kesi the horse trainer. The It seems to me this may be the justification for non-pacifism (self defense without hatred) and supports the idea that householders should protect family and home/wealth from raids, violence, theft, etc. by implication (e.g. armed home invasion with the worst of intent toward one’s children). Further, in defense of the above example, would not a broad manner of defensive actions be acceptable if the defense was not done in hatred (as in the simile of the saw and this Sutta AN 4.111 )? Isn’t it deeply symbolic that being cut off from the Tathagata and noble friendship as described in the Sutta - would that not doom the offender? What worse punishment? The Sutta appears to soften the meaning of “I kill him” but further reflection makes the implications seem like the end of that current life would be a relatively gentle punishment. That is: How could unwholesome karma be overcome “in the desert” without the blessings of the Buddha and bereft of his dhamma, sans noble friendship? I can only see this if it we’re talking about countless rebirths here... I guess the moral of the story is do not act from hatred, practice earnestly and honor the triple gem 💎 💎 💎 One last curveball comes up re: the wrathful ones such as Mahakala (Avolokitesvara/Guan Yin/Chenrezig) and Yamantaka of tantric Buddhism. Even if we don’t subscribe to tantric these are deeply symbolic and we might consider them tools to help understand the true dhamma as they are more than just amazing representations in art. They are fierce and wrathful protectors of our path of practice.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes you are following my thinking as well with AN 4.111 ... that will actually be the topic of my next video. 😉

[@arpanagarwal2524]

Buddha considered maintaining a skilful and virtuous military to be an essential component of good administration. These things were commonsensical and not debated in those times. Extremes of non-violence were reserved for monks, as they had a different station in life. Likewise monks did not need to earn either, and at does not mean that Buddha would want laity to not earn. Remember ancient societies had a stricter sense of division of responsibilities.

[@DougsDharma]

Where in the suttas does the Buddha discuss the importance of a skillful and virtuous military?

[@arpanagarwal2524]

@@DougsDharma This is all what you can call "digested knowledge" gathered over years of reading Buddhist literature. However, if you ask for precise sutras etc, I can give sutraic and non sutraic buddhist sources: Nagarūpama Sutta (Simile of the Frontier Fortress, An.7.67) the Buddha lists seven defences that make a frontier fortress unassailable: a deep and unshakeable foundation, an encircling moat wide and deep, an encircling road wide and high, ramparts thick, high and covered by plaster, a wise and competent gatekeeper, a great armoury of weapons (both missiles, shot as in arrows or hurled as in spears, and handheld, such as swords) and many different types of troops. Listed next to cavalry, chariots and the elephant corps, we learn here about the complex composition of foot soldiers, which included archers, standard-bearers, battle marshals organising the battle arrays, the supply corps, experienced noble princes, frontline commandos, veteran heroes and shield-bearing soldiers. Frontier forts occupied a central position in warfare. They acted as a crucial deterrence encouraging peaceful existence, provided shelter to the armed forces and arrested the onslaught of invaders. Capture of these strategic strongholds was necessary for decisive victory and this could be achieved by elephants breaking open their gates. One such assault is recorded in the Saṃgāmāvacara Jātaka, where the Buddha in one of his prior Bodhisattva rebirths was the mahout of the king’s elephant. When it turned in fear during the attack on Benares, the Bodhisattva successfully restored the elephant’s confidence and encouraged it: O Elephant, a hero you, whose home is in the battlefield: There stands the gate before you now: why do you turn and yield? Make haste! break through the iron bar, and beat the pillars down! Crash through the gates, made fast for war, and enter in the town! (Jat.182) Also, when the border provinces of Magadha were in turmoil, king Seniya Bimbisāra solicited the Buddha to stop soldiers from escaping their duty by joining the Sangha. The Buddha duly decreed that the ordination of anybody currently serving in the army or other royal services (for instance, tax collectors) results in a dukkaṭa (Mahāvagga 40, Vin.I.74). By preventing soldiers from becoming monks, the Buddha intrinsically recognised their duty as well as the king’s duty to protect the realm. Countering notions of warfare being the unique domain of the kṣatriya, in the Issatta (‘Archery’) Sutta the Buddha talks about military recruitment being based on merit of fighting skill rather than social stratification: ‘Great king, you have a battle to be fought, then warrior youths not trained and without experience in archery, who would be frightened and would run away from the battlefield, come. Would you recruit them, would they serve the purpose?’ ‘Venerable sir, I will not recruit them and they would not serve my purpose.’ … ‘Then Brahmin youths, … householder youths, … outcaste youths, trained and experienced in archery, who would not be frightened and would not run away from the battlefield, come. Would you recruit them, would they serve the purpose?’ ‘Venerable sir, I will recruit them, they would serve my purpose.’ … Then the Blessed One further said, ‘Any youth skilled in archery, powerful and energetic, would be employed by a king going to war - unskilled people are not employed just because of their high caste.’ (Sn.3.24) In the Dīghajāṇu Sutta (An.8.54), a key text for understanding Buddhist lay ethics, when listing conditions for people to reach wealth and happiness in this life, the Buddha explicitly included archery (the most emblematic of military services) and service under the king (which also included tax collectors, for example) among the suggested careers, and advocated for developing skilfulness in these professions. In the Mahā Kammavibhanga Sutta (The Great Exposition of Kamma), the Buddha expounds that somebody who kills a living being does not necessarily in their next life take rebirth in a hell realm and can even take rebirth in a heaven realm instead. This is explained by the complexity of the human mind and accumulating many different kinds of karma in lifetimes. Also, one’s last state of mind at the time of death (maraṇa-citta) can have great impact on one’s rebirth. You may also note that Buddha himself was a Chakravartin in many previous lives, and he during his numerous counsels to kings, he never advises them to not engage in war.

[@Dray7777]

Thank you for this. Where can I read this text online

[@Dray7777]

Would allow the state to protect them but what if the state becomes corrupt? Then its good to not be a monk but practice Budhism as is much as is practical

[@jaednhowlar2359]

I'm pretty sure monks are allowed to be violent to protect themselves to a degree. Most Theravadan monks I've heard say if you are going to be killed, you punch and run or the equivalent. The sutta on letting bandits carve you up, I believe, assumes you were unable to get away. It is not loving kindness to see that there is danger to this body and to allow it to happen without attempts of prevention. Hurting people physically is no problem, it is hating them. Unless we are too immature to realize that pain in ourselves is of little consequence, it shouldn't be hard to hurt people with love when required. I used to work at an elementary school as a volunteer. If a child was being violent, you physically restrain them. You do NOT let them hit you. If they struggle, they experience pain. It is easy to feel compassion for children in this situation if you are a normal well adjusted adult. It is much like the Sutta in which The Buddha explains to the king that it is worth removing the object your child is choking on, even if it causes pain, because you are trying to prevent choking, and that is the important thing. It is indeed harder with adults, even though many are as deluded as children. Letting a person maim or kill you without protest is pretty much staring a persons bad kamma in the face and letting them eat it whole. If you truly understand kamma, letting people hurt you out of hatred or greed is actually a very hateful thing to do in itself.

[@jaednhowlar2359]

Also must note that the pacifist religion of the time was Jainism. I do not agree in the slightest with the idea of Buddhism teaching pacifism, I think that is a misunderstanding. Jainist pacifism is to be rejected. The phrase :The Lion's Roar" is extremely important. True happiness comes with boldness. To relate to christianity, The meek that Jesus spoke of means "those who have swords that they are able to keep sheathed", not "people too passive to carry swords". The non-violence of a man who could kill you is love. The non-violence of a pathetic worm that dare not lift a finger is fear.

[@jaednhowlar2359]

Sorry if I seem combative, I enjoyed your treatment of the subject and am commenting more to the public than directly to Doug because I've run into so many people that think Buddhism is Jainism.

[@DougsDharma]

Right, yes. I believe the Vinaya may have some passages saying it's OK for monks to act in self-defense, but not having seen those passages I'm not sure exactly what to make of them. However in the suttas to my knowledge the Buddha never advocated for violence.

[@jaednhowlar2359]

@@DougsDharma Ive never seen any sutta advocate for it either. I think that is accurate. I dont find any advocation for pacifism directly either, but I see how it could be interpreted that way when a passage is taken out of the context of the whole. I personally think violence is an odd subject of much nuance. Reality is by nature violent. If you dont have enough melanin or shade, even the sun seems violent :P

[@jaednhowlar2359]

@@DougsDharma here you go, heres one example. kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5yVk3ZmesZ2o5Y&ab_channel=YuttadhammoBhikkhu

[@yangintrospector8024]

I wanna talk with you about Buddhism but how can I will reach there?

[@fidaafaris1159]

Hello Mr.Doug ,now in buddhism if someon is physically violent to us , should we sit and watch without self defense??

[@DougsDharma]

I don't think so, do you?

[@fidaafaris1159]

@@DougsDharma i couldn’t find a clear answer about this matter i mean the emotions that you have to respond to a violent situation that happens to you or to a beloved one will disturb your inner peace and at the same time you can’t just not to attack back ..

[@fidaafaris1159]

in buddhism they say monks and nuns aren’t allowed to kill or harm even for self defense and Dalai lama says if someone shoots you it’s reasonable to shoot him back .. contradiction

[@DipayanPyne94]

Well, fidaa, if someone assaults you physically, defend yourself. Don't tolerate. It's as simple as that. Try not to harm them. Just make them stop ...

[@SalmanKhan-wu2fc]

Sir plz tell me.what is buddha? because I'm very confuse about this word buddha

[@wint7031]

Hi Doug, thanks for this video but I'm not sure you're right about it. The problem are between the monks and their rules{=law). As far as my understand, we should learn the results. For example (1) One monk who commits one of these(kill/ steal/sex/lie) is not a monk. He shouldn't be attend the monthly meeting. Example (2) Channa is proud eagerly but as a monk shouldn't be. Therefore, His teacher punishs him. As a result, he becomes a noble monk.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes that's right Win Thu, thanks.

[@ashleyharris9905]

Hey Doug! I've been watching some of your videos off an on, but I'm still struggling with the titles of people you talk about. Do you have any videos I can look at that explain what a darma, sutra, layity, monastic, ect are? I've been trying to look into some of these myself but I'm having a hard time finding them or putting it all together.

[@rocco2181]

Darma means the teachings of buddha, sutra is a collection of written buddhas teachings, layity means people who practices buddhas teaching at home not joining any monastry,

[@peterquest6406]

If someone attacked me or my wife can i protect myself or my wife even if this invoved violence and having to hurt that person?

[@DougsDharma]

Certainly you can, the question is whether you should and under what conditions. Hard to answer from an early Buddhist perspective! My recent video on practice in difficult times mentions a recent essay by Bhikkhu Sujato that may be relevant: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2TSq3yiZsedrsk

[@ультрон-ъ2о]

What in the case of war or for a Buddhist Soldier

[@DougsDharma]

No easy answers unfortunately. For the Buddha however any anger, hatred, violence, or killing brings bad karma.

[@chadkline4268]

You know, these answers are just not good enough for situations where others are putting your life in danger, whether immediate or otherwise, and are not open to understanding. And in many cases, govt institutions are not appropriate; they are incompetent, too corrupt, unavailable, or otherwise unable to intervene. But it seems certain that if evils are not terminated, they increase, and how could allowing that be wholesome, proper, or good regarding the welfare of beings in general?

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, these situations in early Buddhism don't map very well onto our concerns nowadays, that's for sure. But the main Buddhist teachings are clear at any rate: that whatever we do should be done with the right mindset. That is, we should not maintain anger nor hatred, but work towards justice through compassion and kindness. This isn't easy.

[@consciouspresence5880]

Buddhism could actually increase violence in some cases where fear would stop you being violent and meditation can detach you from fear so you do what is necessary - in a good way.

[@chadkline4268]

@@consciouspresence5880 that's interesting, but difficult to understand. I think you are saying that fear can prevent proper actions, but when we have clarity of mind, physical violence, as a defense, may be done as is appropriate and in good conscience?

[@consciouspresence5880]

@@chadkline4268 I like to think of Buddhism as the teaching of no teaching or an unlearning rather than a learning because I have interest in zen not the other pseudoscientific sects of Buddhism. What we get conditioned to believe is that violence is good which ends up in suffering and the other extreme is that we turn to doormats were anyone can step on us so violence and going against conditioning is necessary. If you fear death you are not actually scared of death just scared of losing what you have. Fear of death is always worst than death as lets say you die in your sleep so you basically never experience it. While, if you fear death you can negatively affect your life before death even affects you.

[@chadkline4268]

@@consciouspresence5880 ok, you have great insight, so ... Stop avoiding the issue! 😁 Ie: according to the Buddha, where and when and how is violence permitted? How do you see it?

[@yangintrospector8024]

Hi sir,

[@DougsDharma]

Hello!

[@yangintrospector8024]

Doug's Dharma hi there?

[@AadhiraiSathyavathi]

Doug, 'Channa' was the horse charioteer appointed by Siddhartha Gautama's father Suddhodhana, his job was to look after 'Siddhartha Gautama(SG), who later became the Buddha', And also because it was due to him, 'SG' joined the Monastic Order, if he had not sneaked out SG on that Night, leading SG to renounce his Princely Life, things would have been different, Long story 😊, that's why Channa always refused to leave the Buddha's Side thereafter, strict order from SG's Father, poor Channa, let him be, what will he do even if he leaves the Sangha !? He was stuck in between the cross fires from SG's family politics and he lost his job 🙁, How will he make a living !? Edit: The other two monks, Asaji & Punabbasu, gatekeeper 🫣😂, they definitely had to interact with Lay people, whomsoever visits the Royal Courts or then the Monastic Courts, before & after SG left the Kingdom, strict orders from the Father. Laypeople who were Sick or Old Aged, had to be strictly kept away from the palace courts, during Suddhodhana's Reign, when SG took over, he asked people working for him to be Kind & Embracing everyone. In any kingdom, they protect the royal heirs from any kind of threats, like diseases, sickness and etc 😊, ex: covid 19. Actually, these Suttas are all jumbled now, it has to be synced up with the Jataka Tales, with their Timeline. "Channa (Buddhist) - Wikipedia" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channa_(Buddhist)

[@DougsDharma]

🙏

[@TheWayOfRespectAndKindness]

What to do? Return to the dharma.

[@DailyWisdom999]

I suggest you look into "The Five Factors of Well Spoken Speech". A Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha nor an Enlightened being would argue nor berate others. If one does so, they are not practicing The Eight Fold Path's "Right Speech" and, therefore, would not be Enlightened and one would not be a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha. I suggest to see more reliable translations of The Buddha's teachings....and practice those teachings to determine the truth as the mind becomes more and more Enlightened. ------------ Five Factors of Well Spoken Speech Bhikkhus, possessing five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken, it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise. What five? 1.) It is spoken at the proper time; 2.) What is said is true; 3.) It is spoken gently; 4.) What is said is beneficial; 5.) It is spoken with a mind of loving-kindness. Possessing these five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken; it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise. Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi (2012).

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, these are translations by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Sujato that I'm relying on, they are quite reliable.

[@DailyWisdom999]

​@@DougsDharma This is the challenge we face when unEnlightened beings are translating the words of a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha. The word choices are not 100% accurate and can be misleading. If you see something that refers to an Enlightened being, especially a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha, that says they were arguing or berating others, that for sure is not accurate. Enlightened beings, especially a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha, do not argue, berate others, talk down to others, or disparage others. It is not possible for an Enlightened being or a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha to speak in this way. Doing so would conflict with with the Five Factor of Well Spoken Speech and The Ten Fetters. An Enlightened being and a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha would have eliminated The Ten Fetters from the mind with includes ill will and conceit (See below). Arguing, berating others, taking down to others, disparaging others, etc. are all "wrong speech" and an Enlightened being and a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha would not use "wrong speech". Conceit refers to arrogance, pride, placing oneself above others and judgement of others. An Enlightened being and a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha would not have arrogance, pride, or place themselves above others through speech and actions. The ego of an Enlightened being and a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha is completely and entirely dissolved 100%. Enlightened beings and a Fully Perfectly Enlightened Buddha provide guidance, support, and encouragement along The Path to Enlightenment to assist unEnlightened beings to awaken the mind to Enlightenment with politeness, care, loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity, generosity, and respect, among other qualities of mind. The more one learns and practices, they can see the truth for themselves in how through speaking with The Five Factors of Well Spoken Speech ensures wholesome results in personal and professional relationships. And, through the elimination of The Ten Fetters the mind will experience Enlightenment. Seeking guidance from a Teacher who is Enlightened will ensure a practitioner is making good progress along this path to the Enlightened mind. There are no conflicts within the teachings that lead to Enlightenment from Gotama Buddha. Arguing, berating, disparaging, and talking down to others is in conflict with The Five Factors of Well Spoken Speech. There is much impermanence from 2500 years ago until today related to Gotama Buddha's teachings that we are seeing today in the Pali Canon and the translations of the Pali Canon. The best way for you to observe the truth, is to learn and practice the teachings from an Enlightened being that exists today so that one can acquire the wisdom of knowing through experience. The more one knows what Enlightenment is and is not, they will then be able to observe the Enlightened mind in others making wise choices of where to learn the teachings that lead to Enlightenment so that they can then progress on The Path to Enlightenment. The Enlightened mind will be peaceful, calm, serene, and content with joy....permanently. The mind will no longer experience any discontent feelings such as sadness, anger, frustration, irritation, annoyance, guilt, shame, fears, excitement, elation, boredom, loneliness, shyness, displeasure, dissatisfaction, resentment, jealousy, anxiety, stress, etc. All discontent feelings and the suffering they cause will be eliminated from the mind 100% for an Enlightened being. The mind is "unburdened" and "unshakable". The mind and life is completely and entirely........"peaceful". :) ---------- These are “The Ten Fetters”. These are the chains that bind us into The Cycle of Rebirth. You must eliminate these and practice the seven (7) factors of Nibbana to attain Nibbana. These are sometimes referred to as the “taints”. A taint is an impure quality of the mind and is why these need to be eliminated to attain Nibbana. Lower Fetters 1.) Personal-existence view (Elimination of a permanent self with dissolving the ego. Realization of non-self.) 2.) Doubt about the teachings (Elimination of doubts about the the teachings and the ability of them to attain Nibbana.) 3.) Wrong grasp of behavior and observances (Elimination of rites, rituals and ceremonies to achieve Nibbana.) 4.) Sensual desire (Elimination of pleasures for the senses: eyes, nose, tongue, ears, and body) 5.) Ill will (Elimination of hatred, anger, hostility, aggression, resentment, frustration, irritation, annoyance, dislike, etc.) Higher Fetters 6.) Desire for form (Elimination of desire for existence in the form realms. Animal or Human.) 7.) Desire for the formless (Elimination of desire for existence in the formless realms. Hell, Afflicted Spirits, or Heaven.) 8.) Conceit (Elimination of arrogance, pride, judging, measuring or comparing as superior or inferior to others. Ego completely dissolved.) 9.) Restlessness (Elimination of confused, distracted, restless state of mind the opposite of “singleness of mind”.) 10.) Ignorance (Elimination of Delusion or Unknowing of true reality. For example, The Four Noble Truths, Impermanence, Discontentedness, Kamma, The Cycle of Rebirth, etc. all detailed later in this book.) ----------- These four (4) mental states are often referred to as “The Brahma-viharas”. The four (4) Brahma-viharas are: 1.) Loving-kindness (Pāli: mettā) is active goodwill towards all beings without judgment. 2.) Compassion (Pāli: karuṇā) concern for the misfortunes of others. 3.) Sympathetic joy (Pāli: muditā) is the feeling of joy for others success, even if you did not contribute to it. 4.) Equanimity (Pāli: upekkhā) mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation, treating everyone impartially.

[@chadkline4268]

I am sick of the saw analogy. Facing imminent and unavoidable death is totally inapplicable to defense.

[@DougsDharma]

Well yes, but the point of the analogy is that even in the most extreme conditions we are to maintain a mind without hatred. It's a very, very tall order.

[@anoridinaryhumanbeing70]

so in every dilema of life we face, we turn to the scriptures? To Buddha's words? Like a dumb-driven cattle. Does this not weaken us? To become dependent on those dry words? second-hand knowledge? Moreover, is it not also a clinging too -- the same ego-self continues. Instead of worldly stuff, now it fills up with dharmic stuff.. But you are still far from Nirvaan/ from non-self.. Why then the Buddha said while departing "Appa deepo bhava"? Be a light unto urself? And these scholars, who've read all the works of Buddha throughout their lives, how many have actually experienced the Nirvaana The Buddha had experienced? Have they not become mere repeaters of second-hand knowledge -- parrot-like? Scriptures certainly help -- but for what? Is it not for lighting the flame of my own awareness and insight - within? Which happens only through rigorous dharma-"practice" and specifically meditation? Or via reading scriptures throughout one's life? Do we see any statue of Buddha reading scriptures? Is he not always meditating -- in silence and stillness? Or is he turning to the 'scriptures' for every dilema he faces? Did the Buddha get awakened via reading this sutta and that sutta? Or via practice of meditation? His words are the outcome of a meditative mind. He didn't imitate it from this sutta nad that sutta? Thus he could live them totally -- because he was not imitating! It was a discovery for him! And we, instead of meditating, are studying his words! and thus, never experiencing the niravaan he did..no matter how much so ever we read! Are the scholars not bitting the finger pointing at the moon? And completely missing the virgin , real moon?! They are mistaking the finger for the moon. That's the sad case. Words, words and words. There is no experiential touch in the scholars. Truth dawns in Silence. Not in dry scriptures -- AND words. That's why in Zen they say shut-up and sit down and let thetruth dawn in its purest state -- untainted via dry words and second hand knowledge.. Shikantaza -- just sitting. And Advaita Vedanta(the realized beings like Ramana Maharshi -- not the scholars) has gone to the very essence of Truth! Scriptures are a means to an end. Not an end -- and certainly not meant to become a bondage themselves!!

[@DougsDharma]

Strange you would think that a secular practitioner like myself would follow scriptures in the manner you describe.

[@anoridinaryhumanbeing70]

​@@DougsDharma totally my fault -- perhaps. I saw ur some other video's. You are doing a very beautiful work. There is a class of dharma practitioners who are mere readers -- I confused you with them. But now I know you are far different. Your content is actually deeply meaningful and practical. And practice - oriented. Although your approach is a very scholarly one -- but your Dharma is truly meaningful. nd ur website is very beautiful too. And I love ur idea of podcasting with an insight-meditation-practice-oriented practitioner -- that's a great combo! I am sorry for commenting in a pre-conceived manner that way🙏.

[@greenredwhite]

bro did a 180 😂😂

[@bayarielnazarenostotomas4691]

Gassho!

[@DougsDharma]

🙏

[@desertportal353]

So then if using the rule of law we throw Trump in jail and he then sees the light? Well I'm OK with that. Let him out. On probation with a large guard.

[@DougsDharma]

😄😄

[@yangintrospector8024]

Hi sir,