The Fourth Jhana in Early Buddhism

We'll look at what the fourth jhana is in early Buddhism by considering its definition and the simile the Buddha provides to illustrate its character. We'll also consider some of the paradoxical nature of the early Buddhist approach to pleasures.
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✅ Videos mentioned:
The Third Jhana in Early Buddhism -- • The Third Jhana in Ear...
Is the Mind Luminous? -- • Is the Mind Luminous?
✅ Suttas mentioned:
suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/su...
suttacentral.net/mn39/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn59/en/sujato
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00:00 Intro
01:24 Definition of the fourth jhāna
01:48 Giving up pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness
03:01 The subtle problem with happiness
04:18 The paradox of higher pleasures
06:24 The simile of the fourth jhāna
08:18 Discussing the simile
10:00 Pure equanimity
10:54 Progression to higher forms of pleasure
12:16 The thorn to the fourth jhāna
13:40 Controversies over jhāna
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[@DougsDharma]

🧡 If you find benefit in my videos, consider supporting the channel by joining us on Patreon and get fun extras like exclusive videos, ad-free audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂 📙 You can find my new book here: books2read.com/buddhisthandbook

[@SnakeAndTurtleQigong]

Thanks so much! Sending gratitude from a Daoist monastery near Seattle (USA)!

[@DougsDharma]

Wonderful! 🙏

[@Kim-sherie]

Fourth is definitely in and of the body, before the breath and body fall away. (Yes the breath becomes extremely shallow and slow before the last breath is taken and then the body disappears) I’ve experienced these Jhanas and gone further through different stages through to complete aloneness and everything. I’m just speaking from experience, I don’t know much about the academic side of things. I’m grateful for this series, thank you 😊

[@DougsDharma]

So glad to hear it, Yeeta. Thanks for letting us know your experiences.

[@w2best]

Thank you very much for this series. It truly helped me understand experiences and it's something very hard to put words on and let alone talk to a friend about.

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@BNaturalStudios]

Great video! Wonderful series! The fourth Jhana as you describe it here, is extremely subtle and rare. An extraordinarily precious gem. May all beings awaken to this state in this lifetime!

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@alakso777]

Divine abiding in awareness 🙏🏼

[@DougsDharma]

🙏🧘

[@bam111965]

Excellent teaching of the Suttas! Thank you once again. While I have not experienced the 4th Jhana, my experience regarding Jhana in general conforms to one of Ajahn Chah's teachings. He said, the texts give a good description of Samadhi, which is accurate, but if you actually enter those states, it won't really look like the texts. Where the texts describe a very clear set of criteria in logical order, the actual experience is more like falling out of a tree. You won't know how many branches you are hitting on the way down, or their size, or how many leaves each has, you will just know you are falling and things are happening very fast, and then you hit the ground with a thud (arrive in a steady state). Reflecting on the experience afterward, one can see how the descriptions do describe what you've experienced, but before you had the experience, you would not have imagined it quite the way it is from the descriptions alone. There are many possible states, levels, and types of experiences which are possible in deep meditation. Some fit the description of Jhana, some do not but still seem very powerful. There are many entire systems of meditation which are not intended to lead to Jhana, yet many find them overwhelmingly powerful. Other approaches, seem to fit the descriptions of Jhana, but differ from how many others experienced the Jhanas. Despite over 40 years of meditation, I am not qualified to know the subtle differences between all of these. I suspect there are masters who could, but I also suspect they are exceedingly rare - like one in 1-5 thousand years rare. So, I think the best approach to disagreement, is to see what works for you and see where that leads while remaining open minded.

[@DougsDharma]

I agree, Brian. Well said.

[@alankuntz6494]

Thanks Doug, I've been waiting for this .Appreciate your input on these Jhana's. Apparently many suggest there are 8 or 9 jhanas but i can see how they are narrowed down to 4 as they could be varying degree's and depth of the same 4 as you have pointed out. It's been helpful for me in understanding some of what goes in my own practice of 45 years.

[@DougsDharma]

Sure! I'll be talking about the other states next, though in the early tradition only the first four were called "jhānas".

[@alankuntz6494]

@@DougsDharma Yes its confusing.It's as you say i'm sure.I need to study up on when and how and why there were the elaborations on the jhanas which multipled into 8 or 9.It looks like the interpretation of each Jhana has various depths in them selves in order to turn out to be understood 8 or 9. I don't know what else it could suggest.

[@beanfam1743]

Fantastic video as always Doug! These videos always inspire me to practise, which I think is the most important benefit of them (or reading dhamma in general). Interestingly, I have had that experience of "not breathing" which was actually quite terrifying the first time it occured. Will you do a series on the formless attainments?

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I'm going to do a video on them, it'll be out next.

[@Zipjin]

You’re amazing!!

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks so much! 🙏😄

[@aronmindfulman7727]

Your comment about extreme pleasure can be a fetter for somebody who experiences the jhanas and clings to that feeling of pleasure. Recently, I read an essay The Not-self Strategy at Access to Insight that delves into this problem.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I suppose it can be a problem for some, though I've also heard others claim it's not really that big a problem. I guess it depends!

[@bencharits]

Thank you for a wonderful series of the four stages of Jhana. I would say that from my experience, in the fourth Jhana, when one reaches there… the sense of self is gone. It is hard to agree that one would feel the equanimity in the body. The body and sense of self are gone. There is only a vast spaciousness and unity of the mind with equanimity. The mind is clear and luminous. Time and space no longer exist. There is no inside or outside the body. (The senses of breathing are long gone since the 2nd Jhana.) Overall you did a wonderful job of the whole 4 Jhana series. While I can see that there are controversies, you did pick and choose topics/issues that are really relevant. I feel very connected and in agreement with these descriptions.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks that's very kind of you to say! Yes, your description is similar to one I've heard from other practitioners. 🙏😊

[@shunlaiei5981]

With Fourth jana, can determine three directions: 1. Can determine to be Buddahood 2. Can determine to be Arhatship 3. Can determine to be Fourth jana Brahmin abodes

[@patrickdrazen8411]

I've thought that equanimity can best be defined by a line from the Rudyard Kipling poem "If": "If you can meet with triumph and disaster/And treat those two imposters both the same". It's all about getting oneself above and beyond the emotions of everyday life, which can cloud one's vision and steer one in the wrong directions.

[@DougsDharma]

That's right, in Buddhism this is known also as leaving behind worldly conditions: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIuypmmGgbylqqs

[@johnhaller7017]

Thanks again Doug for venturing where others may fear to tread. So interesting! The refinement of awareness itself, seems to reach a culmination in the fourth Jhana. Luminosity pervades awareness and a profound cessation is the driver of that luminosity. Bodily function, including breathing seems to be suspended, shining stillness, like the white death shroud to which you alluded is the paradox. Breathing stillness and luminosity is surely death itself. The elimination of opposites is sometimes a way of looking at equanimity, but as the savvy marketers say "conditions apply" Those not versed in the Lord Buddha's sublime Dharma may be forgiven for mistaking this as the cessation of suffering. Tantra seems to be one aspect of this, after all Jhana is not an exclusive Buddhist mind state, but Samma Samadhi is. There is no stone that The Lord Buddha left unturned.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, well said John. Thanks!

[@someoneelse6618]

Sadhu sadhu Thank you!

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@FranciscoTornay]

Wonderful series, Doug!!! As a reflexion, I tend not to agree with ideas about "happiness" or "pleasure" being "problematic". To my mind, that's not the point of the Jhanas, particularly in theiris original form. To me, what happens is this: the happiness that we usually try to pursue depends on external, impermanent events, which eventually tend to be provoke more suffering. By searching for a happiness that's always within us, we get free (to some extent, not completely) of that dependency: that's the first Jhana and, probably the most important step towards a different relationship with reality and happiness. There's nothing wrong with that happiness, bliss, rapture, ... What happens is that, if you stay with those feelings, they tend, by themselves, to change and become more calm, less similar to excited happiness and closer to equanimity. All things change and this is just one example. It is good that the rapture becomes bliss, then equanimity and so on, but it's also good if the rapture remains or if the equanimity goes back to bliss and so on, which is sure to happen. It's not that, say, the third Jhana is more advanced and the second more "problematic" You don't "try to get away from happiness". You just find it in you and the let it change back and forth

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, could very well be so Francisco. I've heard them described as higher states of pleasure, where ordinary "happiness" just isn't as pleasurable as equanimity. (Indeed, it's so pleasurable it isn't called "pleasure"!) 😄

[@robloda07]

Always very interesting videos ... could you please post something on the nimitta too?

[@DougsDharma]

There isn't much information in the early texts on the nimitta. It's mentioned in various places and contexts, but that's about it.

[@tranquil_dude]

Thank you for this insightful series of videos about the Jhanas ! :D This is the first time I've heard of the "thorns", and hearing them has further crystalized some observations I've made about how (my own) progress in meditation was deepened (or hindered). It's encouraging to know that what I've faced corresponds with what's been pointed out in the Suttas. As for the controversies regarding definitions of the Jhanas, I think a healthy approach would be to just ask ourselves: Am I moving closer to the ultimate purpose of my practice? For example, when I meditate and reach a certain state of rapture felt with the body, have I further reduced my reliance on external sources of pleasure? If that's the case, then does it really matter if that's a "true" Jhana or not? Just keep practicing and progressing, until one day, perhaps, even the reliance on the body as a medium is eliminated. Or something even better. :)

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, very well said! 🙏

[@alanarcher]

Hi, Doug! As always, excellent content. I know you're always very careful to present all possible opinions and points of view in your work, the mark of an honest man. So, allow me to be blunt: the people who keep arguing about what jhanas are or are not, what is truly or "not truly" Jhana... Those people have probably never experienced even the so-called "lite jhanas". Anyone who has experienced any of the jhanas knows what they are. They know that the sutta similes are pretty much spot on - and that's a problem. Since we're talking about the most subjective of subjective experiences, only people who have actually experienced the experience understand what the similes are referring to. That's the drama of the human condition in many aspects. So, paraphrasing that famous physicist: if you want to know what jhana feels like, "shut up and meditate!"

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks, Alan. The people I know on both sides of this issue have deep personal experience and sutta knowledge. So it’s complicated!

[@7cTube]

Wow, these videos about the rupa Jhanas were great. I heard a lot about that the pleasure isn't supposed to be "in the body"... Still not sure how that's the case when they're called rupa, as opposed to arupa.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, there seems to be some controversy over this point. I think it depends on the practice style.

[@manuutarraf]

Good afternoon. Really thankful for the work you're doing. I have practiced meditation for several years now but I've never studied Buddhism. I tried starting now but I found it a little bit confusing, since there are different approaches. I wanted to know if you could recommend me books or another type of resource, to start studying about its philosophy, history and teachings. Thank you, greetings!

[@DougsDharma]

Check out my playlist section, I have a number of playlists for those new to Buddhism or to Buddhist practice, and also a playlist on recommended books!

[@manuutarraf]

@@DougsDharma Thank you! Really apreciate it.

[@nigelthornberry3568]

So, I intend on watching the first few videos on this that you have, and this comment may be corrected, but just from listening to that metaphor it makes it seem like these "meditative absorptions" are a series of operations designed to recenter the seat of awareness from a self-separate perception towards a more holistic...pure awareness center of perception...which seems to follow with the Ultimate Goal (dare I say Great Work?) of Enlightenment...following the metaphor of the clear mind each one of these absorptions clears a cloud or two of confusion. If this tracks, it follows that the next few steps involve the pure awareness spreading to encompass more than the body until it unites/merges with/is revealed as the Totality of Awareness where it just is, outside of and beyond the conception of place and thing/observer and observed/the dance of Shiva and Shakti....

[@mf1823]

Very educational to me. Thank you very much. Wondering if using the word satisfactory (leans more towards an ending) instead of pleasurable (leans more towards excitement) would work. I am coming from an idea that there must me „something“ that desires us to awake and that we only appreciate on meeting. (Like Michelangelo`s Creation) Then on where all this happens: could different definitions of body and mind inform all these discussions? To me my mind is an organ of the body because (when I am very still) I can sense in my body where my mind is active. Others might feel their mind is beyond the body. The breathing thorn: We need to breathe to get that far. Could this be another station to admit once again our dependency and a chance to surrender our Self?

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks, MF. As to your questions, hard to say for sure! 😊

[@jan_kala]

Thanks for the videos, Doug! I was wondering if you had any resources or plan on making a video of what the Buddha mentions in the Sāmaññaphala Sutta (Fruits of the Ascetic Life Sutta), where after describing the 4 jhānas, he describes a progression into the development of a mind-made body (akin to astral projection or out of body experiences) and the other psychic powers. In other suttas, it's mentioned that some arahants became enlightened more from wisdom, without these experiences, while others had stronger concentration, with the experiences first. I know they are generally seen as side-effects and not the goal, but did the Buddha see them as something worthy for the sake of experiencing higher senses of joy from seclusion? Did he ever talk about their benefits as, say, a teacher or side-benefits? They seem to have been rather well known and mentioned several times in the suttas.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, the iddhis or special powers weren't seen as the goal. The higher senses of joy and pleasure were from being in states of jhāna in particular, or other states of deep samādhi, rather than from the special powers themselves. I see the powers as kinds of lucid dreaming, but don't find them very illuminating of the practice.

[@Zipjin]

Jhana in early buddhism simply means meditation. Buddha would often encourage his disciples to meditate, “jhayati bikkhave!” He also used this word to describe different kinds of meditation, including holding the breath, a self-mortifying practice he later rejected. This is, I believe, a broader and uncomplicated meaning if the word jhana, just as the word zen we use today. Rather than labelling the depth of samadhi in four stages, Ajahn Chah would like to sense and describe the dynamics of those actual mental factors directly. After all, samma samadhi is to bring us an equanimous mind with refined mindfulness, so that vipassana could take place for insights or right views to be born.

[@DougsDharma]

Well in early Buddhism jhāna has several meanings. There is a broader meaning as you mention, having to do with mental training, but also a more specific meaning having to do with absorptive meditation.

[@edwardcottrill584]

Here is what Ajahn Brahm (writing as Ajahn Brahmavamso has to say about the confusion regarding the word "body": "Before explaining these similes, it is helpful to pause to clarify the meaning of a key word used in all the similes, kaya. Kaya has the same range of meanings as the English word “body.” Just as “body” can mean things other than the body of a person, such as a “body of evidence” for example, so too the Pali word kaya can mean things other than a physical body, such as a body of mental factors, nama kaya. (DN 15.20). In the jhanas, the five senses aren’t operating, meaning that there is no experience of a physical body. The body has been transcended. Therefore, when the Buddha states in these four similes “…so that there is no part of his whole kaya un-pervaded (by bliss etc.),” this can be taken to mean “…so that there is no part of his whole mental body of experience un-pervaded (by bliss etc.)” (MN 39.16). This point is too often misunderstood." (Book: "The Jhanas", section: "THE BUDDHA’S SIMILE FOR THE FOUR JHANAS". Available as a free PDF; just google around for it)

[@DougsDharma]

Maybe so, indeed some do interpret it this way. Thanks, Edward.

[@mr.morrist4975]

hmm.. how do you get jnana from jhana? how do you develop insight or wisdom from jhana? i'm wondering if jnana happen automatically during these stages of meditation.

[@DougsDharma]

Well jnana and jhana are different concepts. Insight comes from jhāna as we become aware that even such refined states as these are conditionally produced, and subject to change and decay.

[@jonwesick2844]

Great videos! Are the higher jhanas real, mental states or merely theoretical constructions to illustrate Buddhist doctrine.

[@DougsDharma]

I'd say they're real, lots of people have achieved them and there's nothing particularly esoteric about the process.

[@jonwesick2844]

Even the formless absorptions?

[@xiaomaozen]

😻😊🙏

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@bengunn8574]

what do you do if you've made many serious mistakes and are praying for death but even that does not come. pls reply... does buddhism offer a way out?

[@DougsDharma]

I think contacting a good therapist near you who can help out would be a great place to start, because you are worth it. Then practice the Brahmavihāras. I have a playlist on the Brahmavihāras here: kzbin.info/aero/PL0akoU_OszRi-PrNLubfI0LVwkjXbZ-c7

[@Hermit_mouse]

How is immersive in water (3rd jhana) different from the body being covered in cloth ?

[@DougsDharma]

Well they are metaphors for different feelings of immersion. I’d interpret them as the former feeling slightly more active and heavy, the latter being slightly calmer and lighter, for example.

[@Hermit_mouse]

@@DougsDharma Oh I see. I wonder can you offer any tips for making a smooth steady transition here? I am so often caught in the high energy states of the early Jhanas, rarely proceeding into equanimity.

[@no1uknow32]

I wonder, how long does one have to meditate to reach the fourth jhana? Im sure it depends completely on the practitioner, but could you do it in 20 minutes, or is several hours more realistic?

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, it would depend on the practitioner. But I'd think offhand a long practice of hours a day of meditation would be most beneficial for most of us, and I've heard that ordinarily people find they can reach jhāna (I don't know if they can go all the way to the fourth) on retreats of a week or more of pretty regular, constant meditation. So it wouldn't be easy for most people, which is why they have tended to be downplayed in some contemporary practices.

[@rupeeking8138]

A student asked a Zen master how long it would take him to reach enlighten if he meditated 4 hours a day. The Zen master replied it would take him 20 years. The student wad in a hurry so replied if I meditate 8 hours a day how long will it take? The master replied 30 years. One of the essences of the teaching is to let go of of all your preconceptions. How long will it take you to get to the 4th Jhana? How much karma were you born with how much karma did you generate since you were born in this life? It will take as long as it takes - just keep going. 🙏🏽

[@kdvlogs3895]

Sir i have a question for you buddha say there is suffering is suffering are part of life

[@DougsDharma]

See my other video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppPQnn-dh5Z4m7M

[@osanda2313]

Mr. Doug, is it true that it is in the fourth jhana the supernatural powers start to manifest in the meditator?

[@DougsDharma]

Well I can't say about that, I've never seen evidence of it. In the early texts it's said that such powers manifest after the fourth jhāna, though how proficient one has to be, and how this happens, is never really discussed.

[@osanda2313]

@@DougsDharma Maybe you can dedicate an entire episode for the Path of Purification and Kasina meditation to shed some light into this matter. Thanks!

[@LCD72]

Why are there controversies or significantly different opinions about the nature of the jhanas? Surely if seekers truly experience a jhana, and each jhana has definite characteristics that all seekers can potentially access, then there should be no great divergence of opinion. That is, if there really is a common experience when one 'does it right'? Otherwise, either there is no such thing as a jhana with definable characteristics that everyone can experience in the same way, or all the different opinions arise due to people experiencing things which are not jhanas, but which they mistakenly believe to be so. Or maybe disputes happen if people confine themselves to theoretical or intellectual debates rather than attempting to live the experience.

[@DougsDharma]

Well, impossible to say for sure. I deal with some of these controversies here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHXSpZeLfrRrn68