Scribble to Discover - Draftsmen S3E02

Scribbling in your art can be an excellent starting point, or a disastrous dead end. In today’s episode, Marshall and Stan discuss how scribbling can reveal fresh ideas, how scribbling relates to categorizing thoughts, and how their training shaped the way they draw today.
Topics:
00:00 - Intro
00:46 - Scribbling
01:59 - The Spectrum of Scribbling
07:54 - Scribbling and Communication
13:34 - Circumventing Self Consciousness
15:19 - Freedom vs Restraint
18:51 - Freedom to Reinvent
20:31 - Scribbling in Gesture
24:59 - Habit of Sloppiness
26:23 - Scribbling as Desperation
32:39 - Zettelkasten Method
46:28 - Note Taking and Scribbling
Show Links (some contain affiliate links):
Bootcamps with Marshall and Vance Kovacs - www.marshallart.com/
Winsor McCay - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Win...
Kim Jung Gi - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Kim...
Jeff Watts - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Jef...
Stan’s Quicksketch - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Sta...
Edward Sorel - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Edw...
Heinrich Kley - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Hei...
Preston Blair - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Pre...
Elizabeth Gilbert Ted Talk - www.ted.com/speakers/elizabet...
Back to the Future (actor swap) - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Bac...
Jeff Goodby and Rich Silverstein Masterclass - www.masterclass.com/classes/j...
The Natural Way to Draw by Kimon Nicolaides - amzn.to/3uLyNnz
James Gurney - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Jam...
Barron Storey - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Bar...
Zettelkasten Method - zettelkasten.de/introduction/
How to Take Smart Notes by Sönke Ahrens - amzn.to/3uEIlAF
Rome Research - roamresearch.com/
Edward de Bono: Six Thinking Hats - amzn.to/3dWlsSr
Howard Pyle Painting (Man on Horse) - proko.com/draftsmen-media/how...
Howard Pyle by Henry Pitz - amzn.to/3dZjsJm
Justin Sweet - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Jus...
Vance Kovacs - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Van...
Honore Daumier - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Hon...
Cliff Edwards (Scat Singing - Singing In the Rain) - • Singing in the Rain
Frank Gehry - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Fra...
“Draftsmen” is available in audio. Subscribe on these platforms to keep up to date:
Spotify: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodSp
Stitcher: bit.ly/2JLMShh
Apple: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodA
Google: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodG
#Scribble #Discover #Zettelkasten
FOLLOW PROKO:
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Twitter - / stanprokopenko
Facebook - / prokotv
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Alex Otis ( / alexotisillustration , Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh )
Editing - Alex Otis, Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra

[@Draftsmen]

How do you use scribbling to improve your art?

[@polinttalu7102]

I use scribbling as a way to store ideas, or to keep myself in the grip

[@di_anso]

I mindlessly ugly-scribble random faces and poses in sketchbook when I'm tired of working on a full illustration. I don't know if it's improving my art in any way, but it certainly fulfills the need to work on something and tricks my brain to think I'm not procrastinating, when in fact I'm just doing something within my comfort zone and it's a meditative resting experience

[@chattycorvid2004]

Nearly all my pictures start out as scribbles, especially people, it's like I'm 'finding' the figure. It means I can keep the fluid gesture while also keeping it loose to get the pose just right and to correct proportions etc as I still struggle to get them quite right in the first shot. Then I use that as a base for the real, refined image, either a piece of paper on top or a new layer on Photoshop. It means I have a very dynamic base I can make a cleaner drawing on top of without losing too much of the sketchy quality - sometimes I like showing a little of the sketch layer underneath as texture if it fits!

[@RianaDorsey]

I scribble when I do thumbnails to "feel out" (or discovering, I guess is another good way to put it!) the composition. It's a great opportunity to "draw badly on purpose", which can result in very funny thumbnails. I like showing them to friends and have them guess what I'm going to illustrate. It's a great way to loosen up both mentally and physically before I do mindful drawing. I like Marshall's analogy with scat singing a lot!

[@ttorrr]

Hey guys thanks so much I FRIGGEN Nailed this gesture when I started taking "attachment" away from the drawing and just focused on the idea. Helped me utilize brain power with purpose in drawings. ☺️☺️☺️

[@TheOneRioji]

We are graced by Marshall's singing. Today is now complete.

[@ThatMinority]

Join one of his workshops. He sings all the time lol it’s great!

[@TheOneRioji]

@@ThatMinority Hell I'll join just for the singing!

[@rekhanair9925]

Ikr

[@1groovigyrl]

This whole episode is just Marshall and Stan scribbling to find the point to this episode XD

[@StormEngineer]

I love how at first Marshall's singing was included just for fun, but then it turned into kind of a tradition for the podcast. :D

[@stationFTWfuckaluzza]

Hey Marshall and Stan! Just wanted to thank you for this podcast, it is such a good one to listen to while drawing, and the knowledge and experience you guys provide is greatly appreciated! Keep it coming for 10 more seasons! :)

[@Djentstructer]

I listen to this stuff while doing my cursed chemistry assignments, it really helps.

[@maximilianroth9634]

As a native German speaker, I found it hilarious and genuinely adorable at the same time hearing you talk about "Zettelkasten" :D

[@senh4944]

it sounds better when Stan says it than the OG German version imo, gives it more flair haha

[@RukileinchenChan]

@@senh4944 I did not understand it until Stan said it is a German word (native German speaker here). xD Nonetheless, a nice episode! Now I know that I might be one of those who doodled so much troughout her life that she struggles with clean lines and prefers painting to drawing nowadays. xD

[@winterland3253]

This is the best podcast on KZbin hands down, thank you for putting these out

[@riverview1910]

All of artists out there should watch/listen to Draftsmen. This is so educational and was too, but it’s getting better season by season, episode by episode. I just can not thank enough to the lovely duo and the team behind it.

[@garzapinups]

I love scribbling, it’s kinda like getting the madness and nerves out before settling in with a final idea. Or seeing which scribble inspires a bigger idea.

[@saminreysb]

Karl Kopinski is also another great artist who scribbles a lot to find his gesture and design

[@seanramsey]

Dang, that Toy Story test made Woody look like a psychopath haha

[@katya_chebota]

Thank You Marshall for validating the precise type! You have no idea how relieving it was to here that it’s okay to draw a specific idea. I always get disheartened when I draw many iterations and ideas when my first is what I want, even if it’s not the most dramatic or unique. My teacher says that the best ideas come later in a brainstorming session, but I often already know what I want to illustrate. I’m very happy to hear that my weak experimentation skills are not because I’m still a student, but because it might just not be for me.

[@a.a.v.8219]

Jeff Watts has a ton of scribbly drawings in his sketchbooks! Pretty much all of his ink drawings from imagination. We just saw his sketchbooks in a proko video.

[@Paul_Lowrie]

From what Stan was saying about the Zettelkasten Method, it feels like he is making his own Wikipedia where each note is a page that has links embedded to other pages. Great podcast

[@saramartinez8747]

i know it's been a year since you commented this, but Im just here looking for someone to talk about the zettlekasten . I found about it through Stan, been using it the last 4 months, in a way it is, but is not just info dump (when done digitaly is sooooo easy just to copy and paste, with the intention of procesing it later and never actualy doing it) , its about helpig you'r future self understand what where you thinking when you read x thing. But yeah, kind of a wiki XD just a bit more personal .

[@Paul_Lowrie]

@@saramartinez8747 Hey Sara, no worries, thanks for replying to me. When using Zettelkasten, do you use a digital method or do you use paper?

[@tylerbolus6030]

Just wanted to say thanks for the podcasts Stan and Marshall, they help me get in the flow. Much appreciated!

[@varuntulsyan2558]

Man the podcast was up on Spotify but i was sooooo waiting for the video. Cant wait to dive into this

[@julianobernardo6513]

Alberto Giacometti is a great example of a artist who leaves the searching line on the canvas.

[@zacharycieszinski5465]

I really appreciate this video, this is something i struggled with in art classes, i always feel like i would be at a press for time, that the work has to be good enough to compete with the other students, now that im not in classes it's so much easier to just scribble and explore designs when i dont feel the pressure to perform

[@abigailhayes7910]

thanks for the content you guys. it has made an entire world of a difference in my life. plus we get to hear marshall sing

[@swiirlee8670]

zettelkasten sounds like how wikipedia is organized, a little bit. links to other info pages within the text itself, to lead back or provide more context to the main idea and/or a chance to chase a new train of thought. i'm also v happy to find i already scribble to discover :D i just called them sketching and thumbnailing instead. ever since i started doing it i was actually able to finish better work than i expected from myself. something about being able to quickly move thru so many ideas without treating each one too preciously freed me up from the paralysis of decision-making, which led to more confidence while i was making the actual piece. this ep was rly able to clarify that process for me tho, and showed more directions i could take with it. thank you so much!

[@longjohn7992]

Coolio Love to hear both of em Oldes

[@bktart7169]

When I was in HS I was concerned about my scribbling in my completed work. I felt it didnt look "clean" like everyone else. He said "Don't stop" and never did.

[@kawayananazioly]

Hmmm, I like the singing on the first seconds of the video 😌💕

[@bugrilyus]

I love this podcast, I listen to this while drawing

[@dreagenoveva1333]

This podcast makes my brain feel like it's lifting weights! Thanks instructors!

[@paul_domici]

Great Podcast guys!!!! Thank you!!! I was scribbling the whole time : )

[@sueb1676]

Another great discussion!

[@MickeyOHare]

Came here all the way from Spotify just to say, Stan's fancy German note taking is can be summarized for the layman as "Wikipedia, but for your own notes and thoughts". Have a great day.

[@expressionsforliberation]

This episode has addressed a problem that I've been coming up against. I'm working on creating a comic / animated series, and my habit is to write quick notes down on my ideas that I get. It gets me into a situation where I find myself later unable to actually write out those ideas because I lost the magic of the initial idea by just writing it down and not developing it right then and there in detail. This is something I've been somewhat noticing recently, but this has solidified the problem for me, and from now on I hope that I'll be able to actually write out my ideas into pieces of the story when I get them

[@PuppetMaster8707]

Scribbling is so fun I like to scribble and think about life

[@lulamidgeable]

Stan is really on it with processes as always

[@unorthodoxbox]

Listening to this thought process just reminds me of when I have ideas but no idea of those ideas are good. I just scribble them out on paper or my tablet if I have time just to see if it's good or bad. These things usually never get saved but from time to time I find a diamond in the rough.

[@ramizshould]

This is so good information

[@AS-rk5vb]

The Zettelkasten method is a scribed version of ‘big picture’ thinking which is how we gain perspective of our system of thoughts . You can either fortify old thoughts, form new thoughts or send obsolete thoughts to the recycle bin. Long walks are my way of doing this but I’m confident that scribing would add to the effectiveness of this process.

[@florisroding6157]

hellyeah! just when i was looking for something to draw along to

[@Markerton]

Thank you 🙏 I will use this noting system

[@extrememaybe1534]

In the book How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way they suggest to try scribbling to get the look you want. If you watch Jim Lee or Karl Kapinski draw they start by scribbling.

[@system-error]

Somewhat of a big omission from that book is the importance of blue pencil (non-repro, ie doesn't print) for comics. Most comic artists do a lot of scribbling in the blue pencil underlayer. Frank Quitely actually scans and prints the blue line art, and then draws over that, so that he can erase his graphite lines if he goes wrong, without losing the blue underlayer.

[@gilgamesh7633]

I'm here 26 minutes after publication, which means the people who came here before me haven't finish watching the episode yet. The more you know.

[@julio1148]

For those who just found this episode and are interested in an app for the zettlecasten method. Obsidian is right now one of (if not THE) most popular app, and it's free with tons of channels out there walking through how to use it at a high level.

[@Lavaeolus]

Literally anything: happens Proko: *laughs*

[@clayka5167]

and we love it

[@Lavaeolus]

@@clayka5167 I know it's just a personal preference, but sometimes he laughs for absolutely no reason, especially in Marshall's face while he's saying something serious and it's kinda childish. All IMHO.

[@ProkoTV]

hehe

[@triisart1721]

@@Lavaeolus He's living his life. Nothing childish about him being happy.

[@varuntulsyan2558]

Guys i really wouldn't mind even longer podcasts. I could listen to you guys for 3 hours on end. Even more. Dont be afraid of making longer podcasts please!

[@Stettafire]

3 hours likely takes too much time to edit and record

[@AndrewMaksymBrainNectar]

Scribbling is a way for the Spirit of Art to reconnect the brain to the hand. It need's to do that for a bit of adjustment or realignment.

[@mr.krinkle1177]

i made some of my best drawings by scribbling. when you find the groove, scribbling becomes creative process in free flow motion.

[@TheFunnyVille]

Could you guys do an episode about animation? Love the show!!!

[@bramani6908]

Love your content ❤️ huge fan.m

[@zahrahsartstudio]

Omg I scribble alot. I do those small thumbnail ballpoint drawing before painting and scribbling helps me alot to figure things out and gives me tons of ideas for the painting stage. I'm not always able to translate it to the painting stage though but its still fun 😂 plus I wouldn't be able to do clean drawings even if my life depended on it.🥲

[@anaarbelaiz3615]

There's another app called Obsidian that connects notes just like the zettlekasten method. It's free, you guys should check it out! Loved the episode ^^

[@MarkWhippy]

Steve Huston is really good with his scribbles and zig zags in the backgrounds of his paintings. I've started trying to do the same thing in my own art. It can make it look more energetic and a good way to bring feeling into it.

[@leandrorobles]

Great episode! How many times they say the word "scribble"?

[@brooklynbabydoll718]

My art professor didn't like me scribbling in my sketchbook, shed say "What are all these lines?!!" Lol

[@Djentstructer]

New ep! Hehehe. 😃

[@fanooch1]

Is that the Prestel Durer book? Hmmm. We may need a book tour of your library.

[@philroydias5366]

Does anyone have a full list of the old masters of drawing and painting from the proko videos? It would help alot🙏

[@NATA5II]

All I'll say about scribbling is if you do it, make sure you follow up with it within a short amount of time, otherwise you might not be able to decipher it later on.

[@chayemor]

Does anyone know what wireless earbuds Stan is using?

[@iampotato4669]

Mr Proko can i hear your thoughts on the book: "The artist's way"?

[@zambiasi6017]

Zettelkasten, 😁👍 from austria

[@radhagoyal3606]

My instructor told us to have fine line. “ know where your goes, and then draw it , finely” But i have problems in thinking best for my drawing while thinking about line. Any comment???

[@staceylynnash]

The guy with the beard is so funny!!😂

[@akkad7514]

everytime marshall talks i feel like theres a very faint motivational background music playing

[@Brashenn]

I find that the day starts of with scribbling. As that day progresses the lines become less random and exploratory and more 'I'm putting dow this line and moving on to the next.'

[@tentenlazaro]

What I'm getting at is sketch your ideas first then simplify it then refine the art piece while the idea is still fresh in the mind? Refine the piece as soon as possible? Sorry my english is not my first language.

[@yobeenocreative6984]

Think of it as brainstorming. :D

[@Conahawk]

What epiaode is the one with james gurney that stan mentioned?

[@charnich]

The order we released this ended up being swapped- the James Gurney episode will most likely be S3E04

[@Conahawk]

@@charnich okay thanks for letting me know, I look forward to hearing it

[@manubiondo5713]

I usually scribble with ghost lines and then put down only the marks I need. I find this sloppy enough to set my mind free and get more easily in the flow, but also pleasing to look at, which keeps me motivated. I draw for myself, so I'm more interested in the process rather than the result. I hope this might help somebody else

[@gjs9366]

The best scribbling is done on the smallest of post-its, forcing you to 'get to the point'. Besides, they're just so darned cute.

[@deborahbarnes8475]

❤

[@larryenterkin1125]

The great Richard Schmid past this weekend.

[@asrieleri5503]

road to 100k subs

[@the_Googie]

I was like Settle-Cast-In, what the hell? Then I realized, Zettelkasten! Haha as a german that was hilarious

[@DennisCNolasco]

Ahh, music to my ears.

[@Eagle608]

I love how the way Stan described the zettlecasten method basically *was* the early version of our world wide web (the internet we now take for granted). So yeah, I agree that there is something to it 😁👍 I guess he'll eventually need some sort of... Search... "Engine".. 🤔😉

[@cickovic91]

weird they didnt mention Karl Kopinski, i like his method of scribblig its like sculpting

[@0user123user0]

Zettelkasten has a mesh topology

[@davidmetts4570]

Hey Stan and Marshal, very interesting.... the German method described reminded me of memory mapping in PowerPoint but also how elements in language studies are connected as nouns and verbs then how programs are written using data and logic constructs.....different but the same...love you guy's work and KZbins......mind kinda blown now....gotta think on it....

[@sindarpeacheyeisacommie8688]

Easy on the ellipses abuse...there's a legal limit to that, you know.

[@Stettafire]

@@sindarpeacheyeisacommie8688 Indeed replacing the ... with a comma would be an improvement.

[@joschuaknuppe5849]

I'm German and it took me a moment to get what Stan meant because that pronunciation was so damn american :D

[@necipdemirbuga7024]

grüße aus Hannover

[@joschuaknuppe5849]

Ah, ein Hannoveraner, Grüße aus dem Münsterland!

[@zheliak6536]

Scribbling is the language of imagination and children

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

At the extreme end, really scribbly stuff where even the artist doesn't know what he's talking about and it's just straight glossolalia that he reinterprets into a coherent image later. A little less scribbly and it's like rambling. Then towards the computer end it's like a prepared speech with lots of calculated pauses to make sure not one syllable comes out funny and the artist almost seems afraid to even touch the paper and ghosts everything out. When I've tried scribbling myself, I've gotten some surprising results, but I'm generally more comfortable trying to keep my drawings clean. Though after a point I'm like, "if the line is wrong, it's wrong." Linework and deeply analyzing a study is great and all, but your brain only has so much bandwidth before it just paralyzes itself trying to get everything right at once. I find a lot of my learning happens implicitly. My brain doesn't forget about the unfinished business from one figure drawing just because I've moved on to the next one and not thinking about it consciously tends to lead to that eureka moment where it just clicks out of nowhere while I'm drawing something else; though this is contrary to Stan's advice to stick at a particular reference and draw it over and over until you break down the thing you're trying to learn. There's a law of reverse effort at play is what I'm trying to say. Working more intensely doesn't necessarily yield better results in the same way that exercising and wearing down your muscles more doesn't necessarily develop them more. The growth happens when the muscle is resting, not when it's working out.

[@markjohnson8607]

Ayeee

[@americo9999]

it is hard to start over when you have done a great progress in a drawing :( ... I had that habit also where I'm almost done but suddenly I messed up one line or something in a draw and then I try to fix it instead of starting over

[@ginamazzillo4101]

😎 I've never been this early bfore

[@alfiemarshall9224]

anyone know who did the thumbnail drawing?

[@kevinratay8285]

Francis Beacon did it with paint. Really morbid but.... Strung out on scribbles lol

[@viveks9048]

This might be too much to ask for...but It will be cool to see it done. Like decide on some sort of picture you want to make, describe it without actually drawing and then draw it to "completion". I feel bad for even asking this, but I will be grateful if you guys do it. one done by Marshall and another done by Proko. I just want to see the process of realizing the initial plan for the picture. Really sorry for even asking this.

[@rodrigogonzalez879]

😀😀

[@kyststudio-epicartadventure]

Isn’t it amazing how you can write a song then you have to learn your own song?

[@audreymarcotte6774]

I m not agree that scribbling couldn't be at the first place... we want to immortalize theses thoughts...je pourrais continuer...love you guy's🤩

[@nononouh]

5 22

[@rgartman7529]

Isn't Prestel Durer a database ???

[@coopersheridan73]

Why can’t I listen to this on apple podcast or Spotify? WHY?!?

[@LordHugorion]

everytime Stan or Marshall says some weird german loanword I get confused ...

[@radoslavtodorov9848]

My take on it is: Dont write the idea down, because if you forget about it, then the idea wasnt good enough, but if you didnt put it down and you still remember it in your mind then its an idea worth jumping for. Ofc i think that is true and false, but im having it in mind.

[@Stettafire]

It depends. In my line of work remembering precise events is critical. This would be impossible without notes

[@deardeaddays8673]

go make out already!

[@audreymarcotte6774]

Le croquis ne disparait pas..c'est la fondation ...il fUt s'y ramaner

[@abdimojo8794]

Stan's lips be like 👄

[@iamapie13]

I feel like this episode is calling me out for scribbling too much

[@natemiller2712]

How can scribbling improve your art... You guys have been drawing with only clean lines?

[@MasterTow1994]

I think some of us would benefit from using graph databases like neo4j

[@Sephirothxxl1]

KZbin artists and teacher don't like the indefinite Art. There is a bias to be seen. the metaphor with clear / unclear language doesn't work. Everything can serve a purpose though. Often, Poetry for example is everything but precise or clear. Letting go and finding an art style that can describe what you want without having to use exact linework, still requires alot of work. Scribling has the connotation of "less than perfect". But hey, if you want to have perfection in what a picture describes, take a photo. there have always been artists who consider physical/realistic art (and thus rather explicit ductus) better; but also there always have been artists who tried to break free from what the eye can see and find solutions via more abstraction ( implicit ductus). Yet remember this : Every Pictures you draw already is abstration. The question is how far do you want to abstract and how directly you want to describe what you see. If at all. Line perfection, perspective etc are tools to learn but not the only way to masterfully create art.

[@sindarpeacheyeisacommie8688]

Ok...Ok...Zettelkasten information management has WHAT to do with scribbling? I got lost from one to the other.