Dragon Age 4 Veilguard: Solas Reveals the Truth of Archdemon

[@renatocouto1308]

It makes me sad to know that basically all of Dragon Age's lore basically boils down to "elves being elves"

[@billmcdermott9647]

Especially since I think if Elginarn is king of the gods shouldn’t he have been Dumat? The leader of the old gods

[@bahumut01]

Didn't corypheus do the exact same thing with his dragon

[@bahumut01]

​@billmcdermott9647 elganaan was said to be the god of the sun, lusacan is the dragon of night, what better way to have total control then have the the sun and night

[@SplendidFactor]

@@billmcdermott9647 Yea they fked that up. Elgar'nan would have wielded Dumat. Lusacan should have belonged to Falon'Din.

[@santiagorenner548]

@@bahumut01 I think they missed there. Dumat was widely known as the strongest and the head of the old gods' pantheon. There is no way Elgar'nan, as he is characterized, would have settled for anything less than that.

[@BamBam-3886]

So if everything Grey Wardens know about the Archdemons have been a lie, what is the purpose of the Grey Wardens if they were never needed to "fight" the Archdemons? What does this mean for Morrigan's son Keiran since he supposed to have the soul of an Old God in him? What about The Architecture from Origins Awakening and his talking Darkspawn, where does he and they fit in all of this? AND does Keiran even exist in the game since we don't actually know The Hero of Ferelden, Keiran and even Hawke exist or are even alive in the game?

[@user-cn4gc1ej7f]

Exactly 🙄 why fire the main writer who practically made dragon age himself and hire a bunch of new writers who probably don’t know what they’re doing.

[@julianprevallet8459]

@@user-cn4gc1ej7f Gaider definitely didn't make everything himself, but he was definitely a large part of the original narrative. James Ohlen, and many others contributed to the creative direction.

[@andrewvincent7299]

@@julianprevallet8459 Exactly. David Gaider laid the foundations for Dragon Age. But his main contributions are the world and the magic within the world. So the Circle of Magi and the Templars came from him. James Ohlen was the one that created the Darkspawn and the Blight. Brent Knowles and Dan Tudge also contributed a lot too.

[@darktirkd7395]

@@BamBam-3886 is it explain why the body jumping ability that was the main reason threat in Origins and Inquisition doesn’t work for Gil and Elg, if Cory knew how to do it as well as every Archdemon not work for them

[@ChildOfTheWilderness]

Keiran is just a normal boy, he lost the old soul to Flemeth

[@zack3234]

Absolutely makes no fucking sense. The Old Gods were six males and one female, Razikale. High Dragons are all females. They weren't supposed to be the same.

[@Tlevids]

Plus Razikale and Lusacan appear to be dark opposites of Dirthamen and Falon'Din, not Ghilan'nain and Elgar'nan.

[@shadow7179]

the high dragons weren't actually the Old Gods/Evunaris, they were very powerful familiars bounded to them hence why the genders were different. Archdemons are when the Evunaris manage to possess their familiars via the Blight, with the Grey Warden ritual that kills the soul (aka the possessing spirit) it leaves the respective Evunari comatose (brain death) so even though the physical body in the Fade is fine they are no longer a threat

[@nevermore7285]

High dragons who were basically a part of a god and horrifically modified by them.

[@zack3234]

@@shadow7179 Solas explicitly says they are High Dragons in the video

[@glowhoo9226]

We were also distinctly told that the arch demons are NOT dragons.

[@uhobme2028]

So Essentially, Tevinter worshiped the pets, The Elves worshiped their owners

[@135mikerules23]

Wait, wait, wait. So these 2 lines Solas can have in regards to Erimond revealing the Wardens desperate solution to kill the Old Gods with demons: “That’s madness! For all we know killing the Old Gods, will make things even worse!” “We have to stop the Wardens at Adamant Inquisitor! To actually seek out these Old Gods deliberately, in some insane plan to preempt the Blight?! So, if killing the Old Gods simply makes the Evanuris “mortal”, what the hell was Solas freaking out over? If anything this feels like a total retcon, or am I misreading this?

[@trafalgarlawn7124]

Nope, you're right. Bad writing.

[@GuiPaim]

Well, the whole point of a blight was making the original darkspawn touch their Old Gods in their prisons and corrupt them. Also, they could whisper to the magiesters before they attempt to breach into the golden city, but not after. They just... waited. Maybe if they were killed instead of corrupted, they would just wake up? You CAN kill them if you kill the dragon, but they don't die if you kill the dragon. Good lord, this game is a mess. What a waste.

[@nevermore7285]

Because Solas made the veil using the Evanrius. They were a core part of it. So if they all die, the Veil would unravel and fall. That’s what Solas doesn’t want to happen back in Inquisition. He wants to be control of the Veil’s fall to minimize the damage.

[@nevermore7285]

@@trafalgarlawn7124it’s not. It’s established exactly why he made that comment in Inquisition, because he’s one of the few people who knows exactly what them all dying would cause

[@BelieveIt1051]

I thought the same thing when I watched this. If anything, Solas should have been too on-board with the Wardens and the plan to kill the old god dragons, as if their doing so was playing into his own plans. At the very least, he shouldn't have been so verbally opposed to it. Solas also said there is nothing in the elven legends that ties the old gods to the elven gods. Now BioWare might say Solas was just lying or that he didn't want to tip his hand too much in knowing something no one from the modern era should know, but this is one of many examples of BioWare forgetting their own plot.

[@Drag0nk1ngmark]

So here is my summary of what this discussion reveals. Basically the archdemons are high dragons turned into phylacteries for the Evanuris, when solas sealed the evanuris, they used their dragon phylacyeries to convince the magisters to break them out under pretense they will become gods, but instead let out the blight and corrupted their dragons to archdemons, each one carrying the soul of the evanuris bound to them. There were only seven because Solas never bound a dragon to himself and Mythal i assume fused with hers to survive when the other evanuris betrayed and murdered her but was still left weaken by the attempt, leaving only seven. Four of the archdemons/evanuris are dead by the time of DA:O, with the fifth Archdemon Urthemial dying, either by the warden/alistair/loghain, or taken by Kieran via the dark ritual and was speaking to him growing up until Flemeth/Mythal took Urthemial out of Kieran and into herself, likely to ensure it couldnt escape, then gave its power and herself to Solas to boost him up in time for the game. Hope that explains everything clearly for everyone. Now as for which evanuris belonged to which archdemon, that is gonna be tricky to figure out, but i imagine June could have been Urthemial given both deal with beauty/crafts.

[@spudrow2004]

Maker save me, to see one od the most interesting and unique pieces of lore reduced to this?! And now they replaced it with their own dark gods. I’m so tired of the shitty writers that have taken over the entertainment industry. As RLM said, “How does it feel to feel live long enough to see your favorite franchises go down in franchise go down in flames?”

[@gozzythebat]

15 years of mystery about the archdemons all wrapped up in 3 minutes.

[@andrewvincent7299]

Yeah, that kind of sucks. A lot of people are blinded in their hate thinking this is a retcon but if you payed attention in the previous three games and read all the lore, the clues were always there and this game confirmed it all. What sucks is that it all gets revealed in three minutes of exposition rather than slowly uncovering the truth as you are fighting the two final Evanuris.

[@BelieveIt1051]

They just squished the evanuris, the old gods, and the blight all together.

[@andrewvincent7299]

@@BelieveIt1051 Nah, it was probably always planned to be that way. People were putting together theories that were almost exactly this since Origins has been out. The clues were always there. The flaw is how Bioware confirmed it. Confirming one of the franchises biggest mysteries in 3 minutes of exposition is not the way to do it.

[@AndE667]

@andrewvincent7299 Right. The dalish origin already suggested a link between the Evanuris, Old Gods and the Blight (or Taint).

[@BelieveIt1051]

@@andrewvincent7299 More likely the opposite. BioWare made some art assets and reused them at various points in the game just to stylize it with no more thought to it than that. Then fans made up some baseless theories, and then BioWare read them and said, "Yeah, that's easy. Let's just steal these fan theories." Now BioWare is pretending it was always the plan from day one. It wasn't. And like when the theories were posted, they were easily debunked, and if you examine the details now, what BioWare has come up with doesn't make sense either. It's like BioWare read the theories but not the rebuttals. In Origins, you simply had Tevinter taking over elven ruins and replacing their elven gods for Tevinter ones. Simple as that.

[@andrewvincent7299]

I figured this was the story of the Archdemons and their connection to the Evanuris. Corypheous and his dragon were the biggest clue that this was most likely the theory that was true. Solas says in Inquisition that Cory's Dragon is bound to him, it is essentially an extension of him and a very old elven practice. With that and the fact Flemeth was Mythal and transformed into a dragon, I knew their was a connection. My theory was that the archdemons were the avatars of the Evanuris and Solas trapped them in underground prisons. So the Evanuris tricked the Magisters into going into the Black city, bringing back the Blight to Thedas and then creating the darkspawn who would free all the archdemons which would then free the Evanuris from their prison. I figured that was the reason why Solas was furious as to why the Grey Wardens looking for the final two archdemons pissed him off so much. It's not 100% the same but the connection of the Archdemons and the Evanuris and them luring the Magisters to the Black city so that they could bring the Blight back to Thedas was correct.

[@MrJordwalk]

Jaws Of Hakkon also hinted the truth of what the Old Gods really were IMHO, as the dragon Hakkon Wintersbreath TALKS when we fight him and so I thought it meant the Old Gods were spirits BOUND to the bodies of High Dragons through ritual. I still think this is partly right, but this clip confirms to me that the Evanuris bound portions of themselves to their Dragons as a security measure.

[@darktirkd7395]

This has to be the lamest thing they could do with the Old Gods, they in the first two games that the old god only look like dragons and that they’ve true forms were different.

[@andrewvincent7299]

No, they said that they didn't know for sure if they were dragons. Only that they looked like dragons. That is what Alistair says when you ask him about it in Ostagar.

[@darktirkd7395]

@ true that but I was really hoping for something more, just that mean the last 5 blights were just the Evanuris escaping Solas prison still doesn’t explain why the Body Jumping power doesn’t work in this game. Guess the old god you can clean in Origins is just another Evanuris. Wonder who that was meant to be

[@shadow7179]

@@darktirkd7395since it was Beauty I think it was either June or Dirthamen, regarding Kieran if the ritual was performed he is reincarnation so not the same (it's like in Dragon Ball Evil Buu is not the same as Ubb) for the body jumping thing, the 2 Evunaris in Veilguard had no need to do that because their physical bodies are straight up manifested. every Archdemon prior to this they were basically spirits possessing things

[@darktirkd7395]

@ the body jumping power made the Archdemons near impossible to beat not kill beat as when an old body dies they jump into a new one. It’s made Cory suck a threat

[@andrewvincent7299]

@@darktirkd7395 Yeah, as Shadow said, the body jumping technique probably is not needed since the main part of the soul is within the two Evanuris who are now on Thedas when with the previous Archdemons, the Evanuris were stuck in the fade. So when the Archdemon dies, instead of jumping into a darkspawn to regain it's form, it's soul just goes back to the whole which is Elgar'Nan and Ghilinien.

[@apexalpha2924]

If i'm remember correctly, Solas in DA:I actually tells the Inquisitor that Old Gods/Archdemons got nothing to do with the Elven gods.

[@shadow7179]

if this was before Trespasser, Solas was lying his ass off

[@andrewvincent7299]

He was being deceitful by witholding information. Technically he didn't lie because what he actually said is that nothing about the Old God's(their lore) had anything to do with the Elven people. Which is true but what he left out is that the Old Gods were actually the Evanuris who tricked the Magisters into thinking they were old Gods. Technically, Old God lore is Tevinter lore, not Elven lore.

[@ricijs2000]

cant believe my theory post all those years ago on DA forums was spot on

[@Heidelmann]

I'm super pleased that the fans pieced together the solutions to several mysteries. The titans, the blight, the old gods, and the archdemons. Way to go Ricijs. Good job on figuring it out.

[@ricijs2000]

@@Heidelmann yeaaa thanks......still bummed out how veilguard turned out , especially because of the spit in the face that was them removing previous game world states and making all my work for perfect endings useless and meaningless

[@Heidelmann]

@@ricijs2000 I'm sorry you feel let down with the Keep stuff being reduced to some basic inquisition details. I feel for the developers juggling that many world states. You sound like a person who has gone over each part of these games with a fine toothbrush. I wish I could be that dedicated at times.

[@ricijs2000]

@@Heidelmann indeed, but there were other things too, but keep was biggest of them

[@Kavino]

I have a feeling this was not the original intention of the writers for the Archdemons/Old Ones but changed later in the development. I somehow think Archdemons were supposed to be linked with the Forgotton Ones who fought the Evanuris before they became gods. The Forgotten Ones (and Kieran as an extension of this plotline) was later dropped entirely to make things simple.

[@shadow7179]

I agree a little bit regarding writing changes, in Inquisition once we started learning a bit more about the Evunari one of them suddenly gained some detail saying that they really liked to set things on fire when previously they were something like kindness or gentleness (can't remember the name but it's the Huntress one's sister)

[@Ryan30z]

Most likely, considering in Inquisition Solas says "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons." While you can wiggle it around to mean he technically didn't lie. That the story was changed seems a much better explanation.

[@shadow7179]

@@Ryan30z nah that one is Solas straight up lying to the Inquisition lol, that prick

[@horunovaraki6060]

I dont know why but hearing this explaination and knowing lore of Dragon Age something feels wrong here :/ Like slightly retconned stor was made

[@pativi6643]

In this one I disagree. People who were deep into the lore were theorizing about it for years.

[@briseis8528]

@@pativi6643 Get what you're saying about this being an old theory, but imo the execution here is still incredibly shoddy. Having Solas just confirm this in a dialogue feels like a really bad way of revealing one of the larger mysteries / lore aspects of Dragon Age. There's also aspects of the Old Gods / Archdemons and old Tevinter lore that Solas and Veilguard just kind-off ignores and doesn't touch upon, so it feels like a bad reveal at the end of the day imo

[@shadow7179]

@@briseis8528 the main problem is that Bioware's mismanagement of their studio made this lore drop take way too long, anything regarding the Blight was more than 20 years ago

[@briseis8528]

@@shadow7179 agreed, the lore being this old and established back in Origins and kind-off in the background (atleast older Tevinter lore), would have been difficult to pull off well in any event. but that doesn't make how this scene is executed any better. i think Veilguard has a problem with its writing on a very, very fundamental level, and especially so in how the lore is handled. it uses Dragon Age lore poorly, and because of that Veilguard more often than not shoots its own story in the foot, imo.

[@shadow7179]

@@briseis8528 it's funny a lot of people seem to think that this is a retcon but it makes perfect sense based on the past games, damn shame it took so long

[@stephenwearne6583]

This was foreshadowed in DAI and people had theorised as well im so confused why people are so shocked/triggered by this.

[@BelieveIt1051]

Because it contradicts established lore.

[@stephenwearne6583]

@BelieveIt1051 not really, why can't both lore and this exist at the same time

[@NovaG0]

This makes the Dark Ritual in Origins kind of pointless or at best confusing if they're just dragons

[@gabrielm4845]

holyshit, that was the most garbage thing ever, what the fuck is this, how can they destroy their own lore this badly

[@trafalgarlawn7124]

Way to DESTROY all of the mystery and intrigue in your game's lore with 3 minutes of dialogue.

[@nevermore7285]

The mystery had to be solved eventually?

[@sage94]

@@nevermore7285 not really, a mystery can stay a mystery. The writers just aren't clever enough to keep it interesting without retconning lore for the sake of 20 second plot twists

[@nevermore7285]

@@sage94 not when the mystery is a huge part of the series? And there weren’t major retcons. There’s a reason fan theories have been very close to all this for years now, there were hints in the lore

[@sage94]

@@nevermore7285 mystery being a huge part of the series is the reason it should never be solved. Half-truths and unreliable storytellers are what made mysteries of the blights and the maker so compelling. Those are the big questions, and nobody should ever be able to answer them. That's what makes the world feel grounded and human- that some things are just out of your reach. By revealing these answers, especially all at once in such a plain and straightforward way, cheapens our past revelations and speculations

[@nevermore7285]

@ ??? so Sherlock Holmes should never solve the murder? Scooby Doo should never unmask the villain? Mass Effect shouldn’t have revealed the Reapers mystery, or Halo the flood or the rings? Mysteries that are integral to the story should absolutely be solved or at least have some parts of them revealed. The payoff of all the build up behind a mystery is it being solved, about seeing what we got right and what we got wrong. This isn’t some background bit of lore, this is a huge part of the story that’s been revealed in chunks throughout all of the games. And it isn’t all revealed at once, it’s clarified and brought up throughout the game, the specifics hidden in optional quests in some points and others still unknown. The Elven Gods and the Old Gods being revealed to be the same beings, something that there’s been fan theories and ideas about for years, it would be bizarre for them to then not talk about their relationship with the Archdemons.

[@bernardmacdonagh9517]

What does that mean for the elven gods who's archdemon were killed in the last five blights?

[@shadow7179]

they basically brain dead since their souls got destroyed so they won't be a future threat

[@Phoenix_DarkMoon]

They're dead

[@eastbow6053]

@@Phoenix_DarkMoon no they are mortal we will be able to kill them, like corypheus when we killed his archdemon but i am hoping that after this slop bioware dies and we wont have to deal with each of them like releasing pokemon one by one and one day someone takes the ip declares this game non canon and makes a true sequel to dragon age 3

[@darktirkd7395]

I think it also mean that the Evanuris are also dead, El’ganle especially states he is the last. So it looks pretty likely the elven gods storyline was wrapped up with this game

[@nevermore7285]

Seems like the ‘spirit’ that left the Archdemon and slammed into the grey warden was the Evanirus’ spirit. So they died in the process.

[@flagrus7901]

They could've done anything with the archdemon lore. And yet they chose to demote them to pets of the elven gods. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

[@davidspearim5552]

So they basically ended every other blight in this one game So there's no point in making another dragonage after this If I was making this game, I would made the archDemons it's own thing

[@PaSa7887]

Trust Bioware to find the most boring possible explanation for every possible mystery in this series.

[@EastlakeRasta7]

Why does this feel like a soft retcon???

[@TheCr0oked1]

cause it is, there was a whole story line with kieran morrigans son

[@EastlakeRasta7]

@TheCr0oked1 so in the context of vail guard there is no point in playing the other three games??? I have yet to finish Inquisition I just stopped playing it I honestly don't know why 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@TheCr0oked1]

@EastlakeRasta7 no, they even changed solas's personality. And no decisions carried over from dragon age keep

[@nevermore7285]

Not really. There were mysteries and hints, but nothing concrete. This doesn’t really go against anything already established.

[@nevermore7285]

@@TheCr0oked1which was resolved in Inquisition?

[@NovaG0]

So if the archdemons were all High Dragons, then were they all female to begin with?

[@andrewvincent7299]

The High dragons were but not the Evanuris. The Evanuris bound part of their souls to those high dragons. While the Dragons became an extension of the Evanuris, they were still separate beings.

[@BelieveIt1051]

So it's just Cory and his Red Lyrium Black Dragon x 2. Real imaginative, BileWear. Way to take a dumb fan theory from the Internet and copy/paste it into your story. Way to contradict the established lore and kill all that story potential in the process.

[@khemval4364]

Lol this true Still remember it is on one of those old forum i use to read Most of people defending this and saying it isn't retcon are fishy af Messed up their lore and yet trans and identity stuff get the spotlight What an L

[@BelieveIt1051]

@@khemval4364 Bingo. I think BioWare stole the fan theories but didn't bother reading any of the rebuttals that debunked the theories by citing canon lore. Then they just injected their lazy story with wokeness and called it a day. I also heard a rumor that some people from Mass Effect had to come in and save the Veilguard story as best they could since the whole thing was a total disaster.

[@Alexander_Fuscinianus]

So "puppeter over puppeter over puppeter". That's a shame

[@clairestark9024]

Weirdly disapointing.

[@BraidenLee-qk8pj]

Goddamnit nooo I’ve been waiting for over 12 years and this is how it ends :( I miss Dumat

[@DianeCooperTW]

I will never accept this game or anything that came after origins as true of what was laid out in that game. This game was cause by the corruption of EA forcing BioWare to rush dragon age 2 and ruining not only that game but the entire lore with it

[@ZimaSKratkuMajicu]

This does not make sense. Solas confirmed in Trespasser that all elves were immortal prior to him creating the Veil. Then what, did every elf have their own dragon? What was the source of Solas' own power and immortality? Why did he, back in Inquisition, freak out when it was learned that Grey Wardens wanted to preemptively kill "The Old God", if all that would have happened is another Evanuris becoming vulnerable? What am I missing here?

[@davidspearim5552]

The old gods and the elvin gods should have stated separate Entity group

[@ffdgasfdasgjdfgf]

so idiotic , its hard to believe

[@davidspearim5552]

I could have accepted the Add demons , some type of other ultra powered spirits that got. Screwed over when solos did that Ritual that put up the veil

[@davidspearim5552]

So how they suppose to kill the arch demons When we know that it takes a warden to kill one