Dragon Ball's Biggest Problem: Death Without Consequence

[@gabrielchastain6091]

GT is often underappreciated for actually making consequences for the actions of our heroes in the past Baby was a consequence for what the sayains did Super 17 was a consequence for kid Goku's little murder spree And the shadow dragons are a consequence of overusing the dragon balls and after the final wish to restore everything Goku and shenron take the dragon balls away forcing everyone to continue on without them making death truly permanent

[@somecanadian522]

Yes! I actually really wanted to bring up some GT things in the video. The reason I didn't is simply that it spans nearly the whole series and as a result, I thought it would take up a bit too much time. I think GT's approach to consequence might actually be a future video topic

[@gabrielchastain6091]

@@somecanadian522 yes And I love super to death but I really don't like how other fans hate gt but treat super as if it superior even though super has alot of flaws aswell I just wish people would appreciate every series gt included See their flaws but don't let that ruin it either Even the fillers and the movies I enjoy I'm still getting into the world of other animes slowly but surely Ive always loved Inuyasha and dragon ball though so that's 2 since I was little

[@irradiatedpacific]

i think gt's theming of consequence is pretty neat. everything happens as a consequence of something that usually either happens as a throwaway detail or something that doesn't really affect the plot, except for the very last one, which basically just goes straight for the throat lol BSDB - kami and piccolo merging in cell saga which didn't actually do anything beyond erase kami as a character and remove the special tension that piccolo's fights had Baby - the saiyans general nature as a bunch of heartless genocidal interstellar pirates Super 17 - goku's excessively casual attitude towards killing villains in early dragon ball Shadow Dragons - overreliance on the dragon balls to just fix their problems for them instead of dealing with loss and rebuilding themselves whether it was done well or not is up for debate, but i think the concepts were excellent!

[@teobratuteodor1728]

You mean that the logic of GT what make sense is the reason why considered a uncanonn and a failure?

[@SpinoRexy733]

@@irradiatedpacific But the thing is they were completely justified in using the Dragon Balls as much as they did. Why not use an asset like that and make full use of it? And if they didn't then the series would have ended with Z. Without the Dragon Balls, Goku would have just stayed dead after sacrificing himself to defeat Raditz then the Z fighters would have gotten curb stomped by Nappa and Vegeta/Saibamen, the end. No Frieza, Cell, Buu, no Super saiyan, Kaioken, Spirit Bomb, no Super, no GT.

[@Lordjimza]

Future Trunk's timeline was a perfect example of how impactful death is

[@juliostevens9480]

What the reason they couldn't make to Namek in Future Trunk's timeline? Did they ever say?

[@Lordjimza]

@@juliostevens9480 it is possible they didn't know where it was, since piccolo never fused with kami and goku never used instant transmission to find them.

[@Primal4panda]

@@Lordjimza Bulma still build a ship to go there long before instant transmission or piccolo fusing with kami. Future trunks times is purely made for plot.

[@juliostevens9480]

@Luis Suazo Damn, Akira Toriyama made a kickass story with the original DB/Z manga but it definitely wasn’t free of plotholes.

[@juliostevens9480]

@@Primal4panda Yeah that’s what I was thinking. If Bulma built a time machine she should be able to find New Namek and build a ship.

[@kamentrainerhorn2073]

Yamcha: You make it sound death has no consequence. Tien: It really doesn't. We're literally waiting to go back!

[@therevenger259]

Tien: Hell, this is Chiaotzu's second time. Chiaotzu: Next time I get a free sundae!

[@Nephalem2002]

The revive from the dead limit to 2 was a good cap and should’ve stayed that way.

[@Primal4panda]

Wouldn't matter, with namekian dragon balls, super dragonballs, and whis, fully capable of bringing everyone back to life. Plus I doubt db would be as successful, since characters coming back to life is usually because majority of fans demand it.

[@mikeclarke5732]

The original Bardock meant a lot to me as a kid. The lone warrior who tried to fight till the end that Goku would never know. He wasn’t a good person but he wasn’t supposed to be. He was the renegade slave who tried to save his race from Frizas betrayal and ultimately failed. Only knowing his last wish will be fulfilled by his son, dying with a smile. Then they retconned it for literally no reason and took out virtually everything I loved about his character and turning him into Jor-el.

[@Chaosic]

Yeah I don't like the superman thing they gave Bardock and Goku for Dragon Ball minus and the new broly movie as well.

[@Chaosic]

Yeah I don't like the superman thing they gave Bardock and Goku for Dragon Ball minus and the new broly movie as well.

[@famalam943]

Bardock went from being a savage to being a British cigarette

[@Chaosic]

@@famalam943 that's true man that is why Bardock father of Goku is what I considered canon not other Bardock adaptions.

[@treyvonishere4375]

When a character that dies in Dragon Ball, you feel it. When a character dies now, we’ll you’re left there thinking they’ll come back.

[@TroySoy]

I highly disagree with Piccolo being revived in the namek ark being unimportant. Had he not have showed up Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta and Dende would have been killed. And with Vegeta, it was his second chance at different life. Him being revived tho after sacrificing himself annoyed me

[@firestrikeriii5043]

Vegeta’s second chance sucked dude. Also no, even if they died, Goku would’ve turned Super Saiyan and beat Frieza’s ass

[@yamatotsu]

I honestly agree. Imagine how raw and grim dragon ball z would have been if there was a still a limit to how many times people can be brought back to life, or couldn't be brought back to life at all?

[@Sarge327]

That’s what the Trunks’ special and GT are for, those can get really dark at times

[@spoopaconhojitas3829]

I feel lile this is missing the point really big on Dragon Ball DB is at it's heart a very light-hearted series, and whenever something dark happens Toriyama always tries to lighten the mood Right after Buu kills and eats everyone on the lookout INCLUDING A BABY you have Piccolo freaking out at the Lookout being destroyed Right after Kid Buu blows up the Earth you have Mr. Satan acting like a buffoon

[@vougod6911]

YES, if people couldnt be revived, (ima do some speculating) kid buu would have blown up the earth killing everyone goku loves, and because buu came into being because of goku, goku would have had to realise that sometimes there is nothing but downsides to fighting. Remember that scene from naruto shippuden where he just let a squad of ninjas from the rock village beat his face in untill they felt satisfied because he felt like it was his fault for losing the battle against sasuke, which resulted in killer bee being "killed" by sasuke (i mean he ran away) I think dragon ball could have had alot better of a moment if goku either A) let Vegeta beat the shit outta him because it would prevent buu from reviving, or B) fully commited to fighting vegeta because he didnt want to lose to him, and when buu then comes into being as a result of that, and in the end becomes kid buu and blows up the earth, goku would have to realise that he is the reason everyone he loves is dead and that it was his fault. I dunno, might just be me but i think DB author is really bad at writing.

[@crimsonking4151]

@@vougod6911 if Goku let vegeta beat him then buu would be revived. All the energy he output or lost in his fight with vegeta goes to buu

[@MunoKalesus]

​​​​​​​​​@@vougod6911 the whole reason toryama had buu destroy the earth was bc he can revive ppl with dragon balls idk if u noticed but u had main characters like vegeta dying obviously they wouldnt've died if there was no dragon balls if there were no dragon balls then dbz would become one of those typicall shonen where the main character is fighting an enemy suppsedly so strong yet u already know the mc wont die bc of plot , what u mf's dont seem to understand is that toryama actually has creativity lol but ur arguments are actually stoopid the show is called dragon ball u retarded if u want a show that they die forever literally watch every other show and see if they really die 😂 dbz is the only one who decided to be diferent and creative and yall complaining about creativity bc u guys think u putting solid arguments withouth first thinking, the revive thing makes the series better not only is creative and diferent also allows some crazy stuff to happen so pls stop u have no idea about the genius in toryama he is legend

[@chris7285]

You make a good point when it comes to examining what’s at stake. I too think the constant revival of characters makes the anime less interesting. I think this is why Trunks became my favorite character because they kind of took that cheat code away in his timeline. Granted he could come to the past and see his friends and family along with the world in a different more desirable timeline but at the very least we can see how Trunks may even then still feel broken and like he’s got an interesting challenge to overcome because in his world things are the complete opposite of what the other timeline is like. On top of this he’s kinda on his own and in a way became the main protagonist of his timeline. Unfortunately we never got to see those stories but Dragon Ball super kind of did right by him.

[@somecanadian522]

I can 100% agree with the fact that Trunks being able to suffer actual loss in his timeline makes him one of, if not the best character in the franchise. I don't think it's any coincidence that he ends up having some of the most natural and engaging conflicts. Shame the Goku Black arc is such a mess in terms of plot structure, cause it does do pretty good for him thematically.

[@GeteMachine]

Trunks never reset anything though, he only went to the past to learn about the dead characters in his time and got stronger, then he was ableto clean up his future and had to rebuilt from scratch. No dragonballs. Nothing was undone, but just put to rest when he killed 17, 18 and Cell. Trunks' timeline is the only time where everything seemed like it mattered, along with Bardock in the past. His commrades stayed dead and he did too. They never brought back planet Vegeta because they couldn't.

[@donathan2933]

I feel like the Buu saga was the last time the stakes were truly high cuz Buu did what no other villain did and killed most of the main cast

[@austin31697]

He actually destroyed Earth the biggest major thing the other villains tried and didn't succeed . DB should've ended after that considering Goku was mainly protecting Earth.

[@donathan2933]

@@austin31697 exactly

[@GeteMachine]

@@austin31697 He also killed all te people on Earth other than Tien and Mr. Satan. Again no other villain did that.

[@gespenst1329]

They wouldn't risk it if it was permanent.

[@9LivesDeepDives]

Totally agree with everything you said, probably have even said very similar things when talking about DB(Z) as a series. Well said all around dude, good to see another one.

[@ravenwilder4099]

The original use of the Dragon Balls to revive a character was purely for MacGuffin purposes: a boy who Goku briefly befriended was killed, so Goku decided to collect the Dragon Balls and wish them back to life, creating a reason for Goku to go after the Red Ribbon Army who were also collecting Dragon Balls. The character revived was a character created solely to die and be someone Goku could seek to revive. It's only after this story that Toriyama seemed to see the potential in having death scenes for established characters without the need for consequences.

[@StevenJones851]

This is sad

[@walterthemighty7549]

Fuck, man, remember when Piccolo got resurrected offscreen at the end of the Golden Frieza arc? You probably don't even remember him dying. That's how much it didn't matter.

[@jrsthesedays925]

I didn’t even know he died in that movie lmao

[@walterthemighty7549]

@@jrsthesedays925 SEE

[@jamescadet4450]

@@jrsthesedays925it was actually the movie retelling in the anime that he died

[@Apple_Beshy]

Yup I dropped dbz pretty early on after realizing that death means nothing to the franchise

[@StevenJones851]

Same here i dropped it after Super

[@mr.tie-rex9577]

In Super, the Dragon Balls is also shown to have consequences now we finally see villains using them more often, for bringing back an Evil Tyrant, a Genocidal Being gaining Immortality, etc, I’m hoping they eventually reintroduced the Shadow Dragons and as being the last time the Dragon Balls can be used, now that Death is finally permanent and no Genocidal beings can gain access to Immortality.

[@ickhere9135]

Dying was literally the worst thing that has happened to Tien bear character in og dragonball and now he just…is mentioned sometimes poor guy still training and never gets the spotlight after cell saga

[@HydraBread]

I respect your viewpoint, I have some friends who hold the same opinion too. Do we need stakes though? Dragon Ball to me is a comedy + action show, and while it can deal with serious themes a lot it also is supposed to have feel-good endings to every arc and lots and lots of jokes, it is not supposed to make you feel down in the dumps. We're talking about a franchise where one of the fist villains who killed someone literally threw a building's column and surfed on it to reach Goku. The God of destruction is a cat who spares Earth in part because its food is delicious. In my opinion, Dragon Ball's deaths were never intended to be permanent because the author wants the drama of arcs to stay self-contained, given the nature of the dragon balls. The namek balls were even introduced before Krillin was killed so his second revival had to be planned.

[@somecanadian522]

That's definitely an understandable viewpoint to have, in fact to an extent I'd agree with it. I think the original DB is the best part of the franchise because it stays mostly light. I'd just personally argue that if it was done out of a desire to keep the series lighter on tone then I'd rather have the deaths not happen at all than happen and be undone. That's just me though.

[@troywright359]

Early DragonBall was like Dr Slump. Is that really what people wanted?

[@somecanadian522]

@@troywright359 Speaking personally, I don't mean early Dragon Ball. More so Red Ribbon through 23rd Budokai. I'd consider that the point where the series was not too silly and not too serious, King Piccolo aside.

[@Galvatronover]

silly stuff in dragon ball doesn't excuse there being no stacks if erveryone can come back then why should there be tension when someone dies why go through the OH NO HE DIED if its meaningless

[@austin31697]

@@Galvatronover facts!!! They still made a way around reviving people w/o the dragon balls *cough* *cough* Elder Kai giving Goku his life and giving Gohan power *cough* *cough* nothing stops the writing from being intelligent insulting.

[@gabrielchastain6091]

Some emotional scenes that do feel real impactful even though it is meaningless In the end *for some* I'll make a list Dragon ball z: 1. Seeing Goku die for the first time feels like a loss it's Goku he always endured 2. Vegetas death against Frieza where he broke down and cried to Goku 3. Krillins death is a little sad but it's more emotional watching Goku is reaction It's one thing for him to see him dead like in og but in Z watching him blow up made Goku snap out of rage 4. 16s death 5.Gokus second sacrifice 6. The future timeline in general especially since there is no dragon balls 7.Majin Vegeta's sacrifice 8.Goku defeating Buu is emotional and powerful 9.Goku flying off with Uub the end of Z *till gt and super* GT 1. Goku attempting to kill Vegeta because he would rather have that then baby controlling him forever 2. Piccolos sacrifice because he wanted to stay dead and make sure the black star balls could never be used again *Gohan's crying was so depressing* 3. Krillins death before being revived as it was the most traumatic one watching 18 cry over his body 4. Dr.geros death as he was sad at being betrayed by his creation again 5. 18 and 17s conflict right at the end (kind of) 6.pan asking Goku to kill her for the good of the earth instead of letting Naturon live and Goku doing it 7.When Goku was shown as most likely dead it truly felt as if all hope was lost and with their hero gone all they could do is send away there loved ones and hopelessly try to hold omega at bay 8. Is #7 but the part where Vegeta sadly talking about how he lost his old home and how the earth was like his home and he was going to lose it once again before rushing to try and fight omega even though it was pointless 9.the entire ending of GT as it actually felt like a proper send off to Goku which writers now A days don't have the balls to do and was done in a way that was not common instead of him dying of old age or in combat he flew off with the dragon balls the same things that started his journey as it cuts to Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr. To show Goku watching over them and leaving telling the audience by too 10. The gt movie has alot of sad moments too *Most of the mentions above are not remembered or completely ignored by 90% of the fandom since most of them hate gt for absolutely no reason* *The gt movie is heavily underrated* Super 1.Goku pushing forward and raising his power beyond it's limits to protect his friends 2.Piccolos death was not sad I even recall them mentioning the dragon balls like it wasn't even a big deal 3. Bulmas death to Goku Black 4. The ending of the Goku black arc which was absolutely the most unnecessary and ridiculous ending to an arc ever was sad because trunks fought with everything and lost everything *all because of a little brat by Goku who is so incompetent in super that he can't realize how that would turn out* 5. Watching Goku black kill chi chi and Goten and watching Goku snap showing he really does care about them *which alot of people seem to think Goku dosent love or care about anyone and would sacrifice them all for a good fight* 6.Gohan and Goku's reaction to Goku's death by the assassin hit *once again by incompetent super Goku who actually is often very selfish to a unrealistic degree* 7. The erasure of universe 6 and Beerus and Champa is last words 8.the death if the family man that Gohan knocked out and watching even his pocket watch with his family be erased 9.Master roshi almost dying by over excerting himself I know there are more in dragon ball og but here's the ones I remember 1. Krillins death 2. Chiaotzus and roshis death 3. Android 8s death in the movie adaption and Goku's rage attack 4.Goku reuniting with grandpa gohan Please let me know any I missed in any of the shows

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

High effort comment, exquisite

[@chiefa29]

W comment

[@deonterector7424]

Is it good to keep Artificial human 16 "dead"?

[@gabrielchastain6091]

@@deonterector7424 that was also sad but I don't think they could revive him since he wasn't a living being

[@Dragoncam13]

The ending of Z chronically takes place after super and in the ending of Gt goku did die and eventually became one with the Dragonballs as their last and final guardian

[@yorombas7468]

First, welcome back! Second, you’re completely right and I have been thinking the same thing since I watched the cell saga.

[@Portalsolos]

Death means nothing in dbfranchise

[@jackwei22]

The Buu Saga ensured that as it should've ended at the cell games.

[@GeteMachine]

Death seemed to only have weight when it felt restrictive like it is in the Future timeline, and only because the story progresses off of a state of death. Which is not just a consequence but the continuation of events change because of it. Essentially why the History of Trunks is so good. Because death and struggle were so emphasized in it. No get out of jail free cards, and no asspull power ups, so that even getting stronger was difficult. It also kept pacing and scaling at bay. Where as Super jus goes so fast with its power creep that, nothing feels like it has any weight to that either. It gets to the point where in Super everything is just relative and arbitrary that it doesn't matter and feels too inquantifiable and thus meaningless. As opposed to in the Trunks special, solo adult Gohan survived for 13 years after namek with no knowledge of Super Saiyan beyond seeing it once and Goku doing it. Then at some point he had to teach himself how to do it,on his own with no one to train with and having to protect and mentor Trunks through experience alone. Its not just stakes but cause and effect. Outside of the TV specials with Bardock and Trunks, nothing in DB seem to have it. Its not just consequence. There is no sense of any linear cause and effect to anything in DBZ that force the characters to adapt to. The whole plot just instead becomes, "how do we fix everything before right now" and then it loops back everything around.

[@AllMight6]

Exempt you have to not think for to make sense about it baba, new namek king kai are just ignored so you can have the dystopian future

[@gespenst1329]

@@AllMight6 Exactly. They had to intentionally ignore lots of elements.

[@stevensamuels4041]

Well , death meant Something, Till cell Saga

[@veryangryboi4128]

The dragon balls were gone for most of that arc tho

[@donathan2933]

@@veryangryboi4128 exactly

[@gespenst1329]

For all its escalation, "Z" is even the point in the series that makes death into even _more_ of a joke than it was before, in particular with the afterlife that was introduced then. I don't believe I have to go into detail about that one.

[@thecringekid1929]

Amazing videos I agree with all your points. If death was actually may to have consequence then Toryama would run out of characters to kill

[@HomeCookinMTG]

I don't even know that this is really the fault of the dragon balls themselves. When they were first introduced in the series they were fairly well balanced as far as a shounen McGuffin goes. A person who had been wished back could only be wished back once, and then you had the added issue of if piccolo or kami died then they would become inert, and it would be a multi-day trek across the universe clear to another planet in order to get access to another set of dragon balls...and then they gave Goku instant transmission.

[@MimMdance]

For a show where death isn't always absolute it sure did an amazing job at keeping us thrilled with every fight. It was just that good.

[@vougod6911]

if you were actually thrilled by a dragon ball fight u just lack the brain power to realise whats gonna happen, litterly every fight goes the same: 1. Fight bad guy 2. Get owned 3. Go for a training arch 4. Come back to fight bad guy again 5. Its now a close fight but you still lose 6. Get a bullshit new power up when youre on deaths door 7. Win.

[@jasonfutrell3155]

@@vougod6911 no

[@kyordannydelvalle523]

It is because you only care about flashy fights than good written narrative.

[@MunoKalesus]

​@@vougod6911ur jus hating because if u watched dragon ball is not even like that goku had to die to beat the first bad guy , the 2 big bad guy had some of the most important characters we liked died , in other shonen u have some trash ass villain thats suposedly so strong yet doenst do anything , dragon ball is the most creative anime ever u can hate all u want with ur 2 brain cells 😂

[@MunoKalesus]

​​@@kyordannydelvalle523dragon ball has good writen narrative if u watched it u will see how the arcs flow so well narrativelly speaking

[@infamousplayer8772]

Really good video, you explained your points very well and didn't just go on an angry rant for the sake of it, but still managed to be fun, and addressed one of Dragon Ball's most famous narrative issues while acknowledging that sometimes it manages to break out of it or work it's way around it, even though rarely. If you still watch the Pokémon anime, I hope you'll make a video on it one day, as it's currently the anime I watch and engage with the most since DBS ended.

[@somecanadian522]

Thanks for the kind words they really mean a lot. Unfortunately, I haven't been actively keeping up with Pokemon Journeys but I did watch the recent Episode 111 since the synopsis piqued my interest and I've been putting together a script for a little bit now that would at least mention that episode as a major point, though it's taking a while to come together. In terms of Pokemon-specific content, it'd be more likely for me to make a video on the Adventures manga which could very well happen.

[@infamousplayer8772]

@@somecanadian522 I'm one of the few people who didn't like EP 111 as much as seemingly everyone else did, but I'm glad so many people enjoyed it and agreed on something for once. EP 112 however was a masterpiece and one of my absolute favorite episodes of the anime with one of my favorite scenes in anything ever, so that definitely made up for it. If you know you know. Really interested in seeing whatever you put out on Pokémon.

[@somecanadian522]

@@infamousplayer8772 I haven't actually heard anything about 112, not even the basic plot, but if it's noteworthy I might check that out too. And thanks for the enthusiasm, I really appreciate it

[@infamousplayer8772]

@@somecanadian522 remember how Ash became the Champion of Alola by the end of Sun and Moon by winning his first league in a historic moment? So basically Journeys said "fuck that" and never acknowledged that event ever happened, even when it was convenient or appropriate, to the point where it seemed they were purposefully ignoring it. The most we got was two random kids recognizing Ash in one of the Alola episodes and literally no one else. Then EP 112 rolled around and said "FUCK THAT" again and literally titled the episode "A Triumphant Return! The Alola Champion!" and delivered exactly that. This episode had a scene that legit made me and a lot of other people tear up. It's a must watch if you watched SM or even just care about Ash in general, because this was everything he deserved and didn't get for so long.

[@somecanadian522]

@@infamousplayer8772 I see that sounds really interesting, I'll check it out. Oh and if you don't mind me asking, what did you dislike about 111? Just curious to see the other side of things.

[@goofygoof338]

Dragon balls stakes are either either zero, or one hundred, nothing in between. A good example of this is the Frieza saga this is zero stakes as they have the use of two wishing dragons that can bring people back and even if goku died they could bring him back to finish the job along with the rest of the Z fighters. An example of actually good stakes, would be the Buu saga, as in that arc, Buu killed nearly everyone, destroyed the earth, and began destroying other planet and then broke into heaven. Buu could have stumbled across Nameka and destroyed it along with the Namekian dragon balls, and since he broke int heaven, if a character, is killed while already being dead, they get erased permanently, so if vegeta died in heaven, no amount of wishing would bring him back. Once again just give them one chance to come back, people like Tien and Yamcha have just become excess weight in the franchise, with Toriyama, not wanting to introduce new characters to replace them and he decides the best course of actin is to keep milking them and ruining there character by making them fade into obscurity.

[@MunoKalesus]

In the frieza saga if they killed picollo they wouldnt be able to revive and if freeza won they wouldnt revive u make no sense

[@UnamedUser1]

I remember hearing people around me saying the Dragonballs can ONLY revive once. For one person. Only two lives max. Then I keep seeing Goku coming back to save earth, and just question story-writing. ':/

[@TheSenhorcaioo]

One thing I always thought, on real life we don't know have will happen after we die, or spirituality is based on beliefs. On DB universe, on some point every people on the world died and was revived. Now think for a moment about how they would change their lives. If you could die and come back from heaven (or even hell) won't your life be different? Like many people that almost died tells. And yet in DB there are nothing about that.

[@josephblakemore3091]

I remember when Goku mentioned to Vegeta in the buu saga that Buu absorbed all their friends and they can't even die which made it more serious.

[@razkable]

That was to get him to fuse...they caused boo to form

[@elliotsturtplus340]

@@razkabletrue but he wasn’t wrong though they couldn’t die which means there would be no way to get the others back unless they killed buu which means they would have to kill everyone else

[@decayedphoenix8865]

Death in DB- Early DBZ: Emotional impact that hits you hard because youll never know if they come back at all Death in every DB Saga after Frieza: meh, who cares, theyll be back at the end of the arc anyway

[@MunoKalesus]

Ok so tell me about goku sacrificed how did u think he would be back when he himself say he didnt want to come back u

[@mrmcclish]

This just reminds me of Tien and yamcha talking at the end of dbza. "You act like death has no consequence." "It literally doesn't. we're all waiting to come back. Hell, this is chiaotzus second time."

[@DIRTYSOUTHSHINOBI]

All of the main cast has been revived at least 2 times each.. death is a absolute joke in DBZ

[@MunoKalesus]

​​​@@DIRTYSOUTHSHINOBIwdy mean by that when u were playing video games didnt they get revived , whats wrong with being creative and making something more exiting , literally every other show or anime when they die they die firever thats why u know for a fact they will not die ao thats more of a joke to me like yall ppl dont know how to think i swear

[@fulltimedriller8554]

@@MunoKalesushence why you need a balance which good animes have

[@MunoKalesus]

@@fulltimedriller8554 if they couldnt revive in dbz the characters wouldnt' ve died in first place like in other anime u know they will never die

[@GeteMachine]

Android 8 and Android 16 are the only deaths that are actual deaths because ironically they were set up to be deaths due to them not having and thus cant be brought back. They also weren't constantly brought back for marketing the way Freeza is, so their stories are closed and done with. Same with Future Gohan. There is also the Freeza thing, being brought back so many times just cheapens the climax of his character to me. It feels the same way. Him being brought back again and kept alive while not taken seriously anymore, just makes him seem.. less than the lore held him up to be. It cheapens villains too.

[@Eminster]

8 did come back also 8 is part human

[@elliotsturtplus340]

I will say atleast piccolo got some character development in super and then got more in super hero so keeping him alive is worth it even if we have to hit a wall in the buu arc

[@eldenlion5850]

I might be alone in this, but the two things the Universe Survival arc did right in super, no cheap deaths, and the Z fighters who were put in the background got to do literally anything. As much as I like seeing Goku and Vegeta in action, seeing Piccolo, Gohan, and even Krillin secure a victory was a much needed breath of fresh air.Krillins fight with that fox dude really brought me back to his days in Dragonball where he came up with decent tricks to beat his opponents. I wish we had gotten more but at least others got to throw down outside of Goku and Vegeta.

[@jonolivier9126]

I think the one time only revive within a year of the death was a good idea, but attaching it to the dragons rather than the Otherworld was what allowed it to be null and void after a certain point. I think one time only revives should have been a law of the afterlife, as in the spirit is only allowed to be removed from Otherworld/Hell and set back into it's original body once and they only have 1 year to do it, maybe with special exceptions if the Grand Kai/Beerus/Zeno personally request a revival or something stupid. Either that or have it so that the one time only COULDN'T be removed from the dragons and each one had the limit individually, giving characters in theory up to 5 chances if you count Ultimate Shenron (the red one from GT), but realistically only 2, 1 from Shenron and 1 from Porunga, until the Granolah arc introduces Toronbo as I doubt that Kami/Dende and Zeno would allow Ultimate and Super Shenron to do that as we all know what Ultimate Shenron does and I feel Zeno would feel like reviving someone with the Super Dragon Balls would be pointless and trivial.

[@pilloeglade5463]

10:35 Lol I mean yeah there was that 1 time Toriyama almost understood what a character motivation was after years of having forgot.

[@burningeagle1298]

I love that Teamfourstar brings this up.

[@Dantarn]

The only deaths that really ended up mattering are Future Gohan and Android 16 and even then Gohan getting SSJ2 from 16's death is one of the biggest, most overhyped asspulls in DB history

[@soxosmsoxkdmmw3608]

the super saiyan transformation makes sense as piccolo was almost gonna die and guru was dead so there were pretty much no dragon balls so goku thought that krillin was dead forever (even if goku knew piccolo wasnt dead he would already know that he wouldnt be able to be brought back to life as he was already brought back). also there was this rules in buu saga where if u somehow die while being dead u cant be brought back which is barely used but I still wanted to point it out. in dbz the people that made the dragon balls were weak compared to villains so if the villains killed them then no more dragon balls and the villains could explode namek, this got ruined by dbs with the super dragon balls. if u think about it, there are some stakes but they are way lower than some other anime, but in other anime u can just predict that the hero survives somehow while in dragon ball they can die with the villain or die with themselves and it would be more accurate than 50 comebacks on a way stronger opponent. in other anime they just never die which gets predictable and the stakes go way lower than in dragon ball for some character, while in dragon ball if somebody dies and the dragon balls are unavailable they cant be brought back for some time and in that time the villain can attack if he is still alive.

[@crazyconan28]

I'm really glad you showed all parts of Dragon Ball and not what fans view as "canon". GT has it's flaws and merits, and it was nice hearing you talk about 18's/krillin's scene even though I see your point on it having little meaning.

[@somecanadian522]

I think GT is probably the most interesting part of the franchise to discuss so I'm happy to talk about it. And yeah, I love that 18 scene, even if it suffers similar consequences to other deaths in the franchise it's probably my favorite death scene in it. I'd even argue it doesn't suffer as hard since it actually leads into decent development for 18 within the arc.

[@gespenst1329]

Well, GT not being Toriyama's story will definitely have an impact on things whether or not one wants to acknowledge it.

[@GeteMachine]

I think the problem with revival being pretty much necessary in DB is that it overtime stopped taking actual work to do it. Like when characters died in the Saiyan arc, the next arc itself was the remaining characters going to a new planet for another chance at it, because of the restrictions of believing characters can only be revived once (It was also part of why Goku was angry, becuse Krillin was revived before in DB) and piccolo dying cut them off from the dragonballs. Overtime it got easier and easier to the point of expectation that they'd come back. Ironically Goku only came back through getting a new life from a kai, which does break some formula there. But the problem with why characters cant stay dead is because they're marketing. People will either get mad or question what happened to them because DB isnt really treated as an ongoing story. But episodic arcs. Even more so in Super where it feels like nothing matters thanks to Whis. Yet ironically nobody really dies at all in Super.

[@Nick2quickOfficial]

I always viewed as them getting lucky. We don't see the dragonballs used for reversing death that much in the series

[@KingOmegaZyro]

I need a follow up video, you brought up a lot of grear points that I myself have had concerns about as well

[@MosestheJohovace]

Hell Dragon ball z Abridged summarizes it perfectly Tien: “Why do any of you care. Did you forget the whole reason why they went to namek in the first place now we have 2 sets of dragon balls. Yamacha: “ I mean yeah but your making it sound like death has no consequence.” Tien: “It really doesn’t I mean we are literally waiting to go back hell this is Chaotzus second time here.”

[@lastfirst5863]

Another facet of the issue is it’s harder to get rid of characters who no longer have a purpose in the story because they won’t stay dead, so they stick around being generally useless.

[@Thunder_Bird0]

Thats why i like future Trunk’s timeline its so interesting i wish we had a continuation of it that didn’t come off as fan fiction garbage (Dragon Ball Super)

[@DBZFANX1000]

People always say dragon ball has no stakes because dragon ball's and oh well you can come back and stuff doesn't matter. I somewhat disagree with this. I don't think dragon ball has less stakes then other shonen anime in other shonen anime they just won't die. One piece is a good example where even the side characters don't die. Dragon ball to me still has stakes because yes while the dragon ball's do revive. They can be 1. destroyed (king piccolo arc is a good example or guru dying on namek and after frieza shows up and starts trying to kill them) or 2. used by the villian themselves like with king piccolo or ressurection of F frieza. And 3. well people are always like well if they can revive then why does anything matter? Which my response is if everyone dies nobody is reviving anyone a good example of that scenario is the future trunks timeline.

[@somecanadian522]

I get what you're saying with the first part, but as I kind of touched on at the end of the video, I think the reason other Shonen are able to generate stakes for conflicts via the personal relationships between characters. Whereas I don't feel DB does that nearly as well, instead banking on killing characters to raise stakes and then undoing those deaths. Interesting perspective though!

[@DBZFANX1000]

@@somecanadian522 I see. I will say that while I agree with that piccolo arc could have ended on the saiyan arc I still think his character had some growth mainly in the android/cell arc the buu arc is really where he fell of. Him fusing with Kami who he hated his other half is still some personal growth as it shows how desperate piccolo is to help people out and prevent that disaster of everyone dying. We know how much piccolo hated kami so him wanting to accept that side of him, is probably his last growth. Not to say it is better then him dying in the saiyan arc but i still think he still got some growth after namek I don't think that is where it stagnated. The Buu arc however is another story.

[@somecanadian522]

@@DBZFANX1000 That's a good point, his fusing with Kami is definitely a significant moment that I probably should've given some mention to

[@teriddax3692]

I'm not saying it's the worst, or that it ruined Dragon Ball for me (honestly I'm not the fan I was back when Z was on TV) I think there's no finer example than the end of the Super anime. If anything established that there would NEVER be true stakes or consequences, it was the end of the Tournament of Power. The story held onto the stakes for SO long, but couldn't stick to them.

[@generalshepherd2209]

It used to mean something. Like with Krillin’s second death on Namek, and then Goku’s second death against Cell. We knew what these moments meant and I will never forget how broken I was knowing Goku could never come back… (Until he did bc Japanese fans were butthurt that Gohan was the new main character)

[@AllMight6]

No toriyama just didn’t know what to do gohan so he brought back goku no fans sending him death threats of anything

[@goofygoof338]

Best way to solve this issue is to make the dragon balls bring someone back once and ONLY once, that way a character gets a second chance though it will be their last, cause theres either no stakes at all or everything is on stake, with the only way people die and stay dead is if u kill them while they are dead to erase them or destroy the dragon balls ( they just gotta nerf them)

[@VladimirMalakhov]

That persona 5 música gives you my like.

[@nonagon4266]

I agree with your point on character assassination, but I disagree with your point on the lack of stakes, specifically in every arc leading up to freeza. the fact that shen long dies does create a lot of tension in the piccolo arc, and on first watch you legitimately think there's no way to end the conflict without killing piccolo (since the mafuba failed, and of course this would lead to no dragon balls whatsoever.) in the saiyan and freeza arcs, the characters who remain alive do undergo a lot of grief for their friends who died to nappa, and this is what spurs the trip to namek. the namek saga is probably the highest the stakes ever reached, since these were the last known set of dragon balls in the whole universe, not to mention that vegeta and freeza, who was like 300 times stronger than vegeta, were both forces working against gohan and kuririn, and there were many times in that arc where it seemed like it might actually be the end for either of them. even when goku shows up, there's still tension, not only because of his fight with freeza, but because he was still recovering when porunga was summoned. not to mention that they made the incredibly stupid wish to bring piccolo to namek, and when freeza recovers after taking a genki dama head on, he immediately comes back and severely injures piccolo, and at this point we have no idea whether piccolo is dead or alive. it creates a feeling of uncertainty that makes gokus transformation after witnessing the death of his best friend much more impactful. good video and once the namekian dragon balls become a handicap to be used in late arcs like the android arc and buu arc, I agree that nothing really matters anymore.

[@somecanadian522]

You bring up some solid points that I hadn't considered. I'd still maintain that when looking at the series on a whole the moments in earlier arcs lose a lot of their impact in hindsight. But for a first-time viewing, I can agree that there would be some solid tension thanks to the things you mentioned.

[@nonagon4266]

@@somecanadian522 yeah I can understand that. I think on the whole, dragon ball and dragon ball z are very "in the moment" shows if yk what I mean. most of the tension comes in how characters are limited in their ability to think ahead in stressful situations, and their more irrational character flaws are often what get them into trouble. however, its those very rash, often trusting and pure hearted mistakes (usually made by goku lets be real) that can eventually lead to something beautiful. goku letting go of raditz's tail? probably a really a stupid move on his part, but if he hadn't done that, he wouldn't have died, and never would've gotten to train with king kai. I guess there's a karmic and spiritual element to the show when you think about it like that. goku learning when and when not to trust villains is also practically his entire arc throughout z. if you look at it from his perspective, its actually a pretty tough conflict to navigate, because every time he showed mercy to a villain in the past, it resulted in a new ally or a huge power boost, but with characters like freeza, goku has to accept that some enemies must be killed. this arc culminates in goku reconciling the two, using the genki dama to destroy the pure evil force of nature that was majin buu, but again wishing that buu could eventually come back as a pure hearted warrior. anyway, thats my long-winded tangent that has barely anything to do with the original point.

[@somecanadian522]

@@nonagon4266yeah, I get what you mean by the "in the moment point". In regards to Goku's arc, that's actually a really interesting breakdown of it! Glad I got to read it.

[@xaviercordell9]

wen we first saw sum of these characters die we really did think it was the end for them but it all ended peaceful like it should n some characters do die jus not alot of the main cast

[@nardishdhunnesur690]

Other animes when a character dies: sad emotional ppl getting cancer stage 69/ dragon ball: nah jit we got dragon balls bass boosted music*

[@graysonhall5548]

DB up to cell is actually perfect and unbeatable

[@razkable]

The death stakes thing is an issue with how goku just sees death as a wish not a chance to get better at saving his pals with his care free attitude but in og db when shenlong for example was killed he didn't feel that way about death cause we didn't know about kami or if the dragon could be revived so for a little bit there the stakes were massive and on namek stuff got real

[@conaldpeterson2783]

They say this is loosely based on Journey to the West. Great book. Monkey hated death and went to hell to stop it for his friends. It’s part of his character. They ate part of his character.

[@eliteflite8395]

Agree with everything said here. Super didn’t even need to be mentioned honestly. There’s no stakes at all because it occurs during the 10 year time skip between the defeat of Majin Buu and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai when Goku leaves with Uub. We already know that everyone survives in the end of the series, so there’s ZERO tension at all whatsoever lol

[@newtruths7786]

It still makes no sense why Trunks or anyone in the future timelines didn’t use the namekian dragon balls

[@BeeBeeCJr]

When death is a revolving door, almost all sense of doom and danger go out the window. There’s nothing to lose, ever. Boring and lazy. That’s what it is. The dragon balls are one of the lamest plot devices ever introduced to anime.

[@MunoKalesus]

What if anything the dragon balls is the one of the best ideas , most anime and other shows wien they die they die forever thats why u know they will never die , in dbz goku died in the 1st episode so if u took a moment to actually think correctly u would understand that the dragon balls made dbz so good and legendary , im tired of ppl not being able to think seriously

[@euroanez998]

Do you remember that time when Kishimoto decided to revive EVERY ONE WHO DIED AT KONOHA! Yeah... that was the point where... the author more than the series die for me, i could not deny everything that comes before that point, i start to second gest EVERYTHING before Pain Arc and just did not care that much AFTER the Pain Arc

[@Jdudec367]

At least that made sense with what happened going forward and it was a good way to try to help redeem the main villain.

[@elrifle24]

Strategical isn’t a word.

[@princemannic]

lessgooo pokemon adventures mention

[@toastyy235]

That's why I say in dbs you're never truly dead.

[@easportslegend]

The thing is toriyama wanted to end dbz in the freiza saga. But because of high demand and having to bring the series back I’m guessing he had to find a way to bring the heroes back.

[@AllMight6]

That’s has debunked

[@Yeety_Boi]

Awesome 👏😎

[@razkable]

Vegeta literally is the reason cell became perfect and boo was alive..he caused so many issues people give a pass to because of the balls fixing the deaths he causes

[@Valientlink]

Krillin played a role too though. If he cared that much about 18 he could've wished her back and without the bomb afterward.

[@veryangryboi4128]

@@Valientlink they didn't had the dragon balls during that time so death actually meant death

[@lukebytes5366]

Another thing to add to this is that the dragon balls hardly have plot relevance themselves anymore. (i haven't seen much of og db or gt so take this with salt) everyone used to be after the dragon balls. king piccolo wanted them for his youth, the main characters wanted then to revive their friends, and the saiyans and frieza wanted them for immortality. sure they were just macguffins, but atleast they had a purpose to the story aside from an ex machina. they really started mattering less and less after frieza saga, when villains were so strong they couldn't care less about being immortal and stuff. ( some of them basically are anyway) They did initially try to give the things a little more stakes, but it's hard to see with the hindsight of super ignoring everything and just focusing on big action sequences.

[@yasha_0895]

Ikr..I'm amazed there's ppl think goku has a good story 🤓 he even ain't got no story..none of em are..dbz story is all about GOKU GOT 1 PUNCH K'OD BY NEW ENEMY, HE TRANSFORMED INTO NEXT LVL OF SSJ, LOUDER SCREAMS, FASTER BLINKS, FASTER KICKS, FASTER PUNCHS, GOKU WON, THEN HERE'S COME A NEW ENEMY, REPEAT 😅 and yes I watch DB as well n loved it just becoz the nostalgia LITERALLY !!!

[@jamallhayden2512]

Respect ✊🏽

[@markobewild4032]

I fell like the characters that should have stayed dead were Yamcha and Krillin and the dragon balls should have a limit on how many people to bring back but now its turned into a plot device.

[@juliostevens9480]

I honestly think in some way Toriyama was a genius in other ways he backed himself into lazy writing.

[@MunoKalesus]

It has nothing to do with lazy writing is jus that toryama actually has real creativity , bruh u ppl complaining characters get revived back if thats a problem to u then go watch literally every other show and see if that will make it exiting or anything i swear some of u guys its like u dont know how to think

[@jadenalvarado4912]

The Shadow Dragons from GT should of been the final Arc in DBZ🔥Have the buu saga have a better coherent creative writing and the Shadow Dragons u have a perfect show🔥

[@brianpso]

Just like OP, people very rarely die. That takes away all the stakes

[@Hunkzilla]

I often wonder why Vegeta hasnt used the dragon balls to revive the Saiyan race ..

[@gideonjones5712]

Have to disagree about the original super saiyan part, because of the unique context of that whole situation. Krillin's death isn't just about him, it's made worse by the fact Frieza took Piccolo out first. Goku (and the audience by extension) doesn't know if Piccolo's dead, but if he is, then now there are literally no dragon balls in the universe. An entire saga of work to get the dragon balls back and we probably just lost them. No revives and no feasible way of escaping, much less defeating, Frieza. They're all about to die, with no one to help them escape the consequences this time. It was perfect. That being said, the series really should have ended with the Goku-Vegeta rematch and Vegeta's sacrifice. Could have revived Vegeta as a reward and had him live happily ever after with his family after his big change of heart.

[@henjin4671]

My only question is when and how DBZ got on Nicktoons

[@jamescadet4450]

Premiered on NickToons in 2010-2012

[@tomba7342]

I personally don't find death without consequence a problem in dragon ball. For me Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z was all about the adventure and suspense. When you watch it for the first time, especially as a kid, you are wondering how everything will play out. I mean in the saiyan arc after everyone died, the Z fighters had no dragon balls and had to go to Namek to wish their friends back. While there they had to deal with Frieza. Goku turning into a Super Saiyan after Krillin died was monumental because Goku witnessed it first hand. At that point Goku was angry. Sure he probably knows he could bring him back, but at that moment that was not was going through his mind. While I do think most of the characters fading into the background kind of sucks, I don't mind it as much. It just makes sense. As Goku fights incredibly strong opponents as time goes on, it makes no sense for someone like Yamcha to be part of the fight. Guess that's just how power scaling works in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. You are right that when you rewatch the series it, knowing that the characters will be brought back loses some of its punch, I personally rewatch it for the suspense and the fighting. I love Future Trunks timeline. Where death had consequences. No one survived. But to be honest that Timeline was also bleak as fuck! Part of what I like about Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are its interesting characters and how fun it is at the same time.

[@kyordannydelvalle523]

The problem is that since the og series, you already know that as long there exist the dragon ball to revive everyone, they is no reason to feel suspense or mourn the death of a character. Look at krilin and goku. How many time they revived and we should feel suspense???. I prefer the og than dbz.

[@M3rtyville]

I think Dragon Ball has a lot such problems which GT kinda tried to fix but couldn't fully. - Power Creep: What is stronger than an Army? GOD. What is stronger than GOD? His more powerful evil side. What is stronger than that? Aliens? Wut? Nah nah, its a special kind of alien the main character is part of. Oh... How do you surpass them? Strongest Alien of all time who is feared by Gods. Wow, then? Robots made by the army destroyed by Goku with Saiyan Saga data :]. Wut? Then we make some random demon stronger than the patchwork of all fighters from the previous generation who required a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan to defeat. Wut? Some gumball that beats even Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and was always sleeping on earth for billions of years and makes the god of gods of the highest ranked gods before DBS retconned it shit their pants. Wtf. And he is outclassed by another God, the god of destruction, who happened to sleep all the time and dreamed about a Super Sayian God or somebullshitthathappenedtobeaprophecyinaserieswithmultipletimelinesmakingpropheciesmeaninglessandthusaplothole... so he came to earth and beat up everyone. Goku doesn't surpass him but gets exponentially stronger. What next? Bring back Frieza and make him stronger by giving him off screen training with no explaination making him stronger than Goku even with his other new powerup... Btw, through this procedure we managed to make several non-Saiyans obsolete and irrelevant so we will give them an off screen training power up so they can be competitive like Roshi who retired after drying in a fight against aged King Piccolo who even at full power in his youth is weaker than GOD... that will do - Death because billions of sets of Dragon Ball. Sadly GT is ignored which gives consequenses to the Dragon Balls... then again there is an afterlife so who cares. - fights get repetitive because it turns into a tennis match with one sided matches where each side only dominates if they get a new transformation. Also everyone has similar techniques. Strategy is meaningless and there is no martial arts like in DB anymore. It's all final Beam Struggle stuff. All the DBS fights are the same "RATATATATATA" *punch in the gut* Piccolo's death only had a real weight in the anime. In the manga many of these scenes feel meh. Goku's Super Saiyan transformation was nowhere near epic as in the anime. Here GT came in clutch again by killing him in a satisfying way for good. But people who want people to be revived 24/7 are pissed. I don't remember Krillin getting development in Super. I remember him being regressed by shitting his pants by guys he is billions of times stronger against. In Z he didn't get scared of Cell nor Majin Boo. He showed courage which is why we loved Krillin in the first place. And Vegeta didn't develop. He is keep circling through the same character arc over and over again. Keeps getting tsundere for Goku. Picks one on one fights. Gets his ass kicked. And has to work with Goku at the end admitting he can't do it without him. Then reverts back to 0. Worst scene was the final flash scene against Jiren where he acted like his Cell Saga self. In fact that final flash scene was stolen from the Cell Saga. Not in terms of tracing the movement, but how he taunts Jiren, how he laughed and how he failed. Super sucks at making homages and it shows the writers are just a bunch fanfic writers with no skill. Anyone who actually watched Z would caught on why it makes no sense. btw, you should watch Saint Seiya. A good anime for once :]

[@warrenbradford2597]

The writers need to limit their heroes' choices.

[@veryangryboi4128]

To be fair the show is called dragon ball so of course those objects will save the character's ass for every arc.I think toryiama did a good job with the limits he gave both the namekian balls and earth's balls until the buu saga.I don't think characters should be killed just because their arc is done they could still be part of the series helping the plot or other characters grow.

[@Saiyan1229]

Yea bro that aspect was always the worst of the show to me. The feeling of “eh they’ll be back.” Whenever someone died got annoying very very fast.

[@apocalypespony]

I know you made this video over a year and a half ago, but I wanted to say that its easy for a viewer to see problems with the series because it has them. However, the problem of death without consequences is one that I actively overlook. Toriyama intended to end the series at multiple points but publishers due to the popularity of the show pushed him to continue the manga/anime. Its a problem created from outside forces, not really Toriyama's fault. Goku dies at the end of the Frieza and Cell arc because it was intended to be that way as an example, but publishers demanded more and its not DBZ without Goku.

[@gabrielchastain6091]

There are some conflicts in Z that are very powerful Atleast to me Majin Vegeta vs Goku *Atleast in English dub* you could feel Vegeta is pain and frustration as he fought Goku with everything he had Specifically a moment that stuck out was when Majin Vegeta screamed at Goku to shut up out of frustration and started beating him angrily I can't remember what Goku said but atleast I'm English dub for what people give it crap for made that scene feel real emotional

[@somecanadian522]

yeah that fight was the one I was alluding to in the outro

[@OrangeStarHighSchool]

Long live GT in the hearts of true men.

[@lumpcrittergravy]

I agree with this. Whats the point of death in Dragonball.

[@Jdudec367]

Eh...I would argue DG hasn't aged better then DBZ. Neither are perfect...but while DBZ may have lower lows...it also has higher highs. Kind of like comparing Naruto to Naruto Shippuden, which fittingly enough both DBZ and Shippuden are part 2 sections of a story and are about a timeskip that happens. Also eh...in DBZ there was no character assassination...Piccolo was just done dirty in the Buu Saga but that's not the same thing. It doesn't deprive it of 90% of that...but it does deprive it of a good amount of that stuff. DBZ took away characters place in the plot at times but that's not actually character assassination...that's just shifting focus to other characters, and when DBZ did that it wasn't always ruining the characters place in the plot as a lot of the times the characters logically shouldn't have had a place in the plot at that point like with Tien in the Buu Saga...but Piccolo should have had more of a place in the plot in the Buu Saga really as he could have gotten stronger and been more useful. DBZ never took away or ruined any character's personal development either. Yeah at least Piccolo did some useful stuff in the Frieza and Cell Sagas. He shouldn't have been left at the Saiyan Saga...but he could have been handled better. But it's not like they full on ruined his character in Z...so that's not character assassination. Most characters aren't butchered after being brought back...Tien wasn't buthchered either...he just had wasted potential, but that's not butchering him. Butchering a character would be making them poorly written and making them act out of character for example. Nah most other characters weren't butchered too...not just Vegeta and Krillen. Vegeta's development does matter as while Trunks came back...he still developed. Eh...the Super Saiayan transformation still did matter as back then a lot was at stake and it didn't seem like Krillen would come back...and if Goku didn't transform then they would all die and Frieza would win. There are still technically stakes as like in the Buu Saga the stakes were the universe getting destroyed if they lost to Buu...that's huge stakes, the problem is the lack of consequences...however that doesn't mean there are no stakes at all.

[@Mike-xh2vm]

Super still manages to mess up Krillin and Vegeta.

[@donathan2933]

Vegeta was handled well in Super

[@Mike-xh2vm]

@@donathan2933 How? Super is just rabbit hole of retcons.

[@donathan2933]

@@Mike-xh2vm Super has its flaws and Vegeta is not one of them

[@Mike-xh2vm]

@@donathan2933 He is, I agree though, that compared to everything else, he is not the worst issue, the Bad writing really mess his character, even though the ideas themselves are not too bad, well at least he is not Goku.

[@donathan2933]

@@Mike-xh2vm Vegeta goes through consistent development in Super. Failed to see how they ruined him. However, they definitely ruined Goku

[@Koi_Swirl]

Personally I think that your view on the stakes is a bit too focused on the danger. If you think of every death as a possible future that the Z fighters are forced to live in then they are constantly denying the fate dealt to them. One thing they could do to raise the stakes is to stop turning opponents into good guys for a few arcs.

[@animationfanatic2133]

Now it's star wars problem

[@Erolsaurus]

Yep

[@TheSuperCasual2914]

This video can be summed up with TFS's Tien's speech in the Namek Saga. Here, I found a clip. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5yUoIOeoLqNfNk

[@MrSupersmash93]

My issue with Neji death hurting the story is that he still chose to protect Naruto and he could have let Hinata take the blow because he wasn't obligate to do that which does match his theme of fate.

[@ayhamahmad2277]

kishimoto actually wanted to kill him in the sasuke rescue arc but the editor forced him to cut down because he popular character

[@MrSupersmash93]

@@ayhamahmad2277 it least Neji choose to do that

[@ayhamahmad2277]

@@MrSupersmash93 it well be much better if he died in part one because he didn't do anything after part one that the problem with shonan they won't allow popular characters to die

[@KandiKontent]

He died Saving a shadow clone!

[@great159]

4:10-4:16 you're WRONG. The earth Dragon can only grant 2 wishes and STILL can't grant the same wish more than once🤓 The ONLY time there are stakes is when the Androids kill everyone and no one can come back to life. Other than that this show sucks after Namek💯

[@somecanadian522]

Oh, that's my bad, thanks for clearing that up.

[@veryangryboi4128]

Cell saga is better than sayian saga

[@p00k3r9]

Ok

[@alanmiraanime]

Then there’s chainsaw man that loves to kill all it’s main characters

[@uchihagamer3986]

Even if dragon balls didn’t exist death afterlife in dragon ball is just immortal life.

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

Dragonball's trying to become the anime version of the Simpsons. If your plan is to milk a series for as long as you can you're not gonna have those long term stakes

[@edwardgaines6561]

This is why _Yu Yu Hakusho_ is probably the spiritual opposite of DragonBall's death cheats. Not only do villains like Toguro & Sensui stay dead, they actually *SEEK* their own death through Yusuke.

[@razkable]

Togasbi plays with death too with yusuke in ep 1 and genkai and kuwabara so no

[@deonterector7424]

That little boy at the end of the chapter black arc came back to life.