Skyrim - Talos is a FRAUD - Elder Scrolls Lore

What if I told you that the legendary emperor, Tiber Septim, wasn't even Dragonborn, and that he betrayed his king to usurp the Ruby Throne?
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Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro
3:11 - Talos the Hero
4:54 - Assassin!
7:08 - Talos' Origins
8:56 - Vivec's Troubling Vision
10:46 - Talos' True Identity
13:02 - The Truth of Cuhlecain's Assassination
14:40 - Tiber Septim Conquers Tamriel
17:36 - Talos Betrays Himself?
19:45 - How Talos Became a God

[@killgriffinnow]

This episode was proudly sponsored by the Thalmor

[@Amknownas_743great_explainer]

Nooooooo, It was sponsored by the poor oppressed and wronged, the down trodden and the rightful rulers of the mortal..... Oh yeah.... My bad. It do be like that.

[@bradleydelay]

I love how this gives off the vibe that the thalmor just seek out anyone who says something along the lines of "lorkhan/Talos bad" and are like "yep this is proof of our superiority" and I find that hilarious.

[@ryanhau1073]

And The Under King

[@bradleydelay]

@@ryanhau1073 not the most well-educated on Daggerfall lore but wasn't the Underking part of Talos? Not sure if he talked much about Hjalti and stuff

[@OrgusDin]

The Thalmor did literally nothing wrong.

[@Im-Not-a-Dog]

A few Elves become Gods: That Ok. A handful of Khajiit become Gods: Yeah thats cool. 1 Human becomes a God: Thalmor try to undo existence.

[@tatwood93]

Old nord gods get wiped from history: That ok Tribunal lost their godhood: Yea thats cool Conqueror is exposed as the fraud he is: LET ME SHOOOW YOU THE POWER OF TALOS STORMCROWN Seems like you haven't played Oblivion either lol

[@LordMortanius]

To be fair, they have no issue with Reman. Talos hits close to home because Tibby Septim unleashed a WMD on Alinor and Rimmen.

[@Im-Not-a-Dog]

@@LordMortanius Cyrodil(the dude not the place) was more of a messiah than a God, but I do agree with your point.

[@curtiswong7280]

@@LordMortanius Thank you for mentioning Rimmen, the world needs to know what happened to those poor meow-meows

[@colbyboucher6391]

"The Thalmor are trying to undo existence" is sort of a longstanding psuedo-canon myth. The Altmer, generally, are *extremely protective of Nirn* because they see it as the final creation of their ancestors. That's literally why they're so fashy, they think that by changing your traditions you're changing the traditions of the gods themselves. And they certainly wouldn't want that. BUT as far back as the 3rd pocket guide it's been suggested that when Altmer realize their old traditions aren't actually special, they go into existential crisis mode and *sometimes* shift into "I guess it's our job to make things how they should be" mode. The idea that they're trying to screw with Mundus comes from an out-of-game pamphlet Michael Kirkbride wrote which was, according to him, "allegedly" an Altmeri commentary on Talos. Not only is it only semi-cannon, he didn't even write it as overtly true. It could just as easily have been written as a strawman. (There's also the Nu-Mantia Intercept and a particularly unhinged forum post of MK's with some vague technobabble about the Thalmor accessing TalOS (yes, as in operating system) and basically using the Dreamsleeve as an IRL command console.) MK has suggested that Talos is sort of responsible for holding the world together now, but it's assumed that hardly anyone actually *knows* that. And once again, MKposting doesn't always have any bearing on actual canon. TL;DR Even if some of the super high-up Thalmor are actually hoping for something like this, the majority probably have no idea and would probably freak out if they knew.

[@90snetworkproductions79]

Thalmor: "Worshipping Talos is heresy!!" Local Nord: "Oh, yeah? Touch his statue and see what happens, elf!" Thalmor: *Touches Talos' statue,* Local Nord: *"HA! Same tingley feeling as the other ones!! TAKE THAT!! HA!!"* Thalmor: *Has internal crisis*

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

The deadra can do more impressive stuff....... Is worshipping them not hersey nord?

[@LEOODARTHVADER2]

@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Shut up Dunmer

[@shenanigans2877]

@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl only if youre not redpilled on daedra worship

[@HaythamKenway383]

@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Reminds me of Else God-Hater from Oblivion. "The gods don't do a damn thing. Do they even exist? How could anyone tell? Daedra Lords, sure. They exist. They do things. Bad things, mostly, but things you can see. The gods? They don't do a damn thing. So why do we build big chapels and sit around and mumble, and ask them to save us from this and that? It's stupid. And chapels and priests and folks groveling on their knees, they're stupid, too."

[@Skibbutz]

@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl like half of the Daedric lords are based

[@Michael-bn1oi]

"What is a man? A miserable pile of secrets." Truly the God of Man

[@bonemo7783]

“I’m not a man. But neither am I a Boy.” -Jarl Balgruuf the Greater

[@mike-0451]

A god of man. But not God who is man. An ontic god.

[@jamesthomas4693]

"You steal men's souls, and make them your slaves"

[@vaiyt]

@@jamesthomas4693 slaves. Slave.

[@GlorifiedGremlin]

@@bonemo7783 He said I'm not the high king, but neither am I a boy. Referring to the child high king that was assassinated. Then I realized while looking for that original quote that there's a bazillion memes of him saying he's not a man and used to be a little French girl lmao what a ride

[@Kardel_VA]

Drewmora: *Questions Talos's legitimacy. Nord Bros: "I BEG YOUR FUCKIN PARDON?!?!"

[@frederikferguson2571]

Now I want to play a platform game called "Super Nord bros" lol

[@zackdelarosa14]

@@frederikferguson2571 I'd buy it

[@frederikferguson2571]

@@zackdelarosa14 I can see it for me. small figure with ulfrics head running toward that evil thalmor (could be impeisl as well) castle to stop huge boss who threatens Skyrim jumping and defeating Thalmor and Imperil enemies along the way

[@zackdelarosa14]

@@frederikferguson2571 Ulfric was way after though explain please

[@frederikferguson2571]

@@zackdelarosa14 Thalmor are denying that Talos is a god. Ulfric likes Talos

[@Vlugazoide]

The coolest aspect of Talos as a Shezzarine becoming a continuation of Lorkhan is the maintenance of the duality of a God-King (Talos Stormcrown/Shor) and a scheming snake (Hjalti/Lorkhan)

[@richarddeaton5337]

I think M'iaq is the true Emperor of Tamriel and he was on vacation when Talos took over 😁

[@East16]

For all we know you could be right and it could've been an undocumented dragon break!

[@Fuzzycuffsqt]

You're telling me that a Breton who ruled Cyrodiil just got away with saying "How do you do, fellow Nords" and was revered as the god of mankind for 700 years? I can only hope this sort of Speechcraft check is available in TES6

[@jeambeam3173]

I mean it's just as weird that a Breton/Nord ruling over the imperials

[@MultiSpeedMetal]

@@Super50ldier His "descendants" are Imperials because they mixed with Imperials (in truth the mainline died off with Pelagius). Tiber has been referred to as Manmer and I remember some TES: Legends artwork has him depicted with a very Breton appearance. Hes probably a Breton with maybe some Nordic blood on his fathers side to explain the name Hjalti.

[@MultiSpeedMetal]

@@Super50ldier Wulf is just a manifestation. All the evidence points to a Breton named Hjalti Early-Beard, born in Alcaire, being Tibers true identity. A ghost in Skyrim, in Old Hroldan, confirms the Hjalti identity. In Kirkbride's C0da, Kyne calls him Manmer, if you accept that as even slightly canon. There's also Imperial battlemage Zurin Arctus, if you believe the whole triune Talos thing.

[@MultiSpeedMetal]

@@Super50ldier Kirkbride literally wrote the arcturian heresy.

[@Super50ldier]

@@MultiSpeedMetal When did he write it?

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

There's another theory that Talos the deity is actually a combined oversoul entity formed from Tiber, Zurin and Ysmir. This varies slightly in how it happens, but the general idea is that some sort of magic during the miracle of peace caused it. This theory assumes that Halti is the same man as Tiber, and that he did actually rename himself, but Ysmir enable shouting, and Zurin's powerful magic was added in at the end, with the mantella being used to fuse the underking to the emperor. This makes sense to me, as the story of Tiber becoming emperor still works, and nothing confirmable is contradicted, but with a combination of man, powerful shouting aspect of Shor and skilled wizard, you would have something easily comparable to an Aedra, or even some Daedric princes. The mantella is known to hold souls, but with the underking, it seems to actually be able to fuse them, which would totally explain Talos, and why Tiber has no known death.

[@shycracker]

This combination make the most senses, because Human of Tamriel consist of Breton, Nedes/Imperial & Nords. We don't count Redguard or Akaviri because well they're built different and are from different Kalpa

[@zackdelarosa14]

Ysmir isn't actually one person thought it's more of a title so who actually was the "Ysmir to 1+1+1 this with" let's just ask Todd Howard he's much more reliable at this point in all seriousness remember bugs in jars he actually knew that

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

@@zackdelarosa14 In this case I mean Wulfharth, the only one who really seems to have Ysmir as a name.

[@zackdelarosa14]

@@UnswimmingFishYT there's a few other that take the name. But okay to Dave a few minutes of mine returning here 👌

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

@@zackdelarosa14 The way I see it, most just claim the title, like when you actually get it playing Skyrim, but Ysmir Wulfharth is the only case where it's used as if it's his birthname. He was technically a nord to start with, and we know nords have last names, but in his case Wulfharth is spoken as if it is the last name, and Ysmir is actually his first name, which is kinda weird.

[@greenfrogbad]

I still back Lorkhan/Shor/Talos against Auriel whatever he/they may have done. One asserts that existence and creation has intrinsic beauty and that the dream can be transcended, while the other wants go back to an eternal state of immaterial stasis.

[@lukasp5892]

Our real universe tends towards chaos and disorder, constant change. The concept of Padomay embodies that reality of existence quite well in TES, and the Elven worldview just seems to be in deep denial of the fact that chaos and change are inevitable. And that’s not even taking into account Kalpas, which to me are more evidence that whatever eternal divine stasis the Altmer seem to think is their birthright is temporary at best. Everything is subject to change, nothing is truly immortal, and just live it while you can. Common Human W, common Elven L. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk, long story short I agree with you lol

[@astercat49]

It’s also possible that Talos was the subject of a Dragon Break, merging Hjalti Earlybeard, Talos of Atmora, and Wulfharth into the same being. (For those who don’t know, a Dragon Break is a plot device that Bethesda uses to justify multiple conflicting scenarios throughout Tamrielic history by allowing multiple timelines to be canon. One example is that during the Battle of Red Mountain Nerevar died canonically in at least two different places, being killed by the Tribunal before they used the tools of Kagronak to become gods, and dying when he and the Tribunal confronted Dagoth Ur for trying to use the Heart of Lorkhan. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, but that’s the Elder Scrolls for you.)

[@jaydenlobbe7911]

There was no Dragon Break during the Battle of Red Mountain, the idea that Nerevar died when confronting Dagoth Ur is simply Propaganda spread by the Temple, he was in fact murdered by the Tribunal and they covered it up with Propaganda, the same thing happened with the War of Betony before the Events of Daggerfall, there are two contradictory versions of the Book "The War of Betony" that may be found ingame, one is propaganda favouring the Kingdom of Daggerfall and the other is Propaganda favouring the Kingdom of Sentinel, and it is a known fact that these books contradicting one other was not caused by a Dragon Break because the Warp in the West happened in 3E 417 and lasted for 2 Days and the War of Betony happened between 3E 402 and 3E 404, more than a decade before the Warp in the West

[@solarsage252]

Honestly it makes sense to me tbh

[@riccsty7851]

@@jaydenlobbe7911 doesn’t daggerfall take place in the 3rd era since it happens right before morrowind

[@jaydenlobbe7911]

@@riccsty7851 oh yeah, Typo I guess

[@Mecceldorf]

Gotta give them credit to committing to the bit and having dozens of writers make contradicting histories for one event so they can all be canon. Other contradictions include the presence of orcs or khajiit in the battle of red mountain, the transformation of the latter into battle leopard mounts, the revival of the ash king (before the accounts in this history of Tiber Septim) and his collusion with Dagoth Ur, and the Daedric invasion of Molag Bal who emerged on the path to Red Mountain with his buddies Clavicus and N'Gasta and demanded all parties to "play the best song in the world or [he'll] eat [their] souls."

[@zogkuma]

It would be a brilliant idea if the Elder Scrolls 6 released the truth about Talos as well as the Thalmor trying to rip apart the fabric of Mundus. Those two plots would go well hand in hand I think.

[@_KillerD_]

I believe that leaving it as a mistery is better

[@zogkuma]

@@_KillerD_ perhaps. I will say it can be at least argued that it's definite that a dragon broke in order to birth the god, Talos, and it didn't just happen due to the gods liking him.

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

Too soon, the Thalmor have potential to be a great faction, but they desperately need more development before being offed. If they are to offed.

[@KnoxCarbon]

​@@leonardomarquesbellini I feel the Thalmor should be the main enemy faction in the next Elder Scrolls.

[@lerosallyn9279]

@@KnoxCarbonNah Elder Scrolls games tend to skip A LOT of time so having the game continue almost after the events of Skyrim would be a disservice to the mystery of false narration that makes ES Lore so compelling. The drama is in trying to find what is happening and what has happened while we were not playing

[@Rob17Cotton]

I never realised drew had his own channel I've been missing him on fudgemuppet then I did little digging & I'm glad to find this channel & now I've got loads to watch thankyou Drew 🙂

[@narosedraconis2424]

Ah "The Three who become One" theory. Is probably one of my favorite speculations, regarding "Talos Storm-Crown" Loved your reexamination of it. Keep up the awesome work.

[@GlorifiedGremlin]

The oblivion music was a nice touch, it's been ages since I've heard that comforting gentle song. Brings me right back to being a little boy snuggled up under some blankets on the couch playing oblivion all day

[@VLarraechea]

To think we were having a lore discussion regarding Tiber Septim and the necessity of Dragonborn status for an Emperor to be deigned legitimate, right as this video launched. Loved listening to it all, Drew, thank you!

[@xSHIELDBREAKERx82]

Also, and stay with me here, what if Talos was another version of Lorkhan? I know it seems strange and rather out there in the best of cases. But think of it this way. Say Mankar is right and Tamriel is Dawn's Beauty-Lorkhan's plane of Oblivion. But his corporeal form has been destroyed yet his spirit cannot be. If you look at it like that and then look at all the "heroes" of the games as versions of Lorkhan then it kind of makes sense. Then wouldn't it also make sense that there were heroes that we as players don't get to play? For example-Tiber Septim. Now what if Lorkhan did things so awesome as Tiber Septim that the gods raised him to be one of their own, not knowing it was Lorkhan in mortal coil. That would be the biggest f-you, lol.

[@LordMortanius]

Yeeeah, the entire problem is that the Aedra can't actually elevate anyone in their current forms, and that Tibby didn't exactly do anything his predecessors Alessia and Reman didn't.

[@jeremycarnes1656]

Talos was a Shezzarine. So...yes, he was another version of Lorkhan.

[@jeremycarnes1656]

By the way, not all the games' heroes we're Shaezzarines. In fact, it's likely that none save the Last Dragonborn were. Eternal Champion, possibly, but not likely. Seems he was just a guy, a very talented one. Hero of Daggerfall, probably not. Nothing in the game suggests it. The Nerevarine was...well, the Nerevarine, and was anointed by Azura, not Lorkhan. Lorkhan wouldn't send him to attack his own heart. The deity pulling the strings there was definitely Azura. So probably not Morrowind. Onlivion's Hero of Kvatch/Imperial Champion, most likely not. Nothing in the game points to it. He's most likely just someone who was in the right place at the right time. If any deity is moving him as a pawn, it's Akatosh, as he is the one in direct conflict and who actually makes an appearance. But even then, the Hero isnot an incarnation, as it's Martin Septim who actually invokes Akatosh. I haven't played Shadowkey and there aren't a lot of lore discussions about it, so I can't comment. The Battlespire hero is just some mage rising to the challenge. Cyrus the Redguard wasn't a Shezzarine as far as anyone knows. There's no evidence of it. The Vestige has no soul. He can't be a Shezzarine. He literally can't. That really only leaves the Dragonborn, and he's all but confirmed as a Shezzarine..he literally sits on Shor's throne. He fits all the criteria.

[@jeremycarnes1656]

@@Super50ldier dude, that isn't what makes Shezzarine. That just means they were all adventurers loosely aligned with Imperial interests. The only one we have strong evidence for being Shor incarnate was The Last Dragonborn.

[@jeremycarnes1656]

@@Super50ldier that doesn't make any sense, and being the only being able to sit on Shor's throne isn't "proof", but it's pretty strong evidence. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling me.

[@RZpotato]

Anyone else here to hear even the mention of Zurin Arctus? I'm living off his lore, Drew PLEASE

[@texo456]

One, Kulekain is such a badass name. Two, your wordplay is immensely immaculate.

[@shycracker]

Not just in name, That Colovian warlord was total chad for engaging Coalitions of both Bretons and Colovian kingdoms that culminate and Sancre Tor

[@YourWaywardDestiny]

It's not much, but in defense of Hjalti Early-Beard _actually_ being dragonborn, I don't think "conveniently gaining the voice right when he needed it most" is much of a point against it. Is was also so with the Last Dragonborn. It wasn't until shortly after that enigma literally came face-to-face with Alduin they gained the capacity to shout. Or, rather suspiciously, only as the world began to hear of a massive black dragon terrorizing the land. Though suspicious as it was, it's how it happened.

[@yoboyfargoth1208]

Sounds like Dominion propaganda to me. By how much did the elves bump up your social credit score, Drew?

[@Xolcm]

Talos and Vivec really are two sides of the same coin with how similar their stories are.

[@indrickboreale7381]

But Shor actually must like this idea, didn't see Nords being cursed for eternity, unlike Chimer

[@mark5222]

@@indrickboreale7381 because Shor (Lorkhan) is a trickster.

[@zackdelarosa14]

@@mark5222 but Nords aren't cursed with a skin condition as mortals and have a resting eternity to go to (so long as they die in battle which for the entire race is their honor) Chimer/Dunmers get to either perish or be apart of an sentient ash pit idk how that is similar tbh

[@HandleMyBallsYouTube]

@@zackdelarosa14 Or they can become Telvanni wizards and live practically forever, the rules can't screw you if you make them up as ya go.

[@zackdelarosa14]

@@HandleMyBallsKZbin that's fair

[@CaiusKushsades]

I've been trying to find a way to connect my feelings on Talos and the discrepancies for so long! Wonderful work as always, this is masterful

[@gabenvandenbrink9114]

Hi Drew, recently i finished the clockwork city DLC in ESO. After the quest you can talk to Sotha Sil one last time, where he will give you the options to ask questions. You can ask about Vivec, Almalexia or himself. He responds with in-depth answers and some interesting insights and views on the concept of reaching CHIM. I'd love to see a video about that, as i think it was very interesting and worth talking about.

[@HansWurst1569]

Its eso it doesnt count. Non of eso’s lore makes much sense and is like later seasons in got.

[@gabenvandenbrink9114]

@@HansWurst1569 It is canon and good lore. Even Michael Kirkbride himself has stated many times that he is 'constantly surprised by how good it is'. Also, all lore written is reviewed by so called 'loremasters' who look into if it fits TES's lore and spirit.

[@HansWurst1569]

@@gabenvandenbrink9114 yeah nah

[@paladinheadquarters7776]

@@HansWurst1569 it is canon though

[@HansWurst1569]

@@paladinheadquarters7776 thanks to CHIM and TIMEBREAKS it doesnt have to be :)

[@cartoonhistory353]

I can’t even put into words how much i love your videos can’t wait for this channel to blow up hearing oblivion music takes me back

[@realzachfluke1]

I couldn't agree more with every single one of those one sentences 😏😉

[@feyfolken1655]

Drew out here asking the real questions and uncovering the real conspiracies.

[@corneliuscarver8547]

Making Tamriel Great Again...I see.

[@GlorifiedGremlin]

Sometimes when I'm totally fried from learning of all the corruption and conspiracies that are 100% going on in the world, I come to fret about the elder scrolls world instead. Much more fun, and less stressful lol

[@corneliuscarver8547]

@@GlorifiedGremlin an absolutely amazing reason to be here! And btw...great screen name.

[@lonewanderer1328]

Everyone was quiet when hiljalti was piloting Anumidium though sooo......

[@corneliuscarver8547]

@@lonewanderer1328 So we know hear about them 🤠. Imagine standing in front of the big "NO" and being erased from existence.

[@BlameBarky]

This content is why I still love the game. Without content and creators like this, I don’t know that the game would have still been so popular. You have such a gift, Drew. Thank you for all of what you do!

[@colemclean1676]

Thalmor propaganda.

[@yourmusicguru]

There’s definitely some sort of divinity associated with the name “Talos”. If there wasn’t, then why do we get a buff for praying to his shrines?

[@InquisitorThomas]

The gold will be delivered shortly. XOXO The Thalmor

[@texo456]

Side comment- my only issue with the arcturian heresy, is that I don't recall it ever mentioning the amulet of kings. If Hjalti, Talos, Tiber was not born of the dragon blood, then did he wear the amulet of kings? Surely if he didn't, some question to his legitimacy would have been brought up?

[@Lv66BlackMage]

Always making me question the lore I thought I already knew, thanks Drew..

[@sadservitor5362]

I really like this version of his ascent into godhood. Makes it a lot more interesting than "bro is so great he becomes god." I would like to see a ousted order of worshippers that follow this creed and strive to honor him the three ways of his divine being.

[@jaydenlobbe7911]

There's also the matter of the Warp in the West, Talos achieved Apotheosis during the Warp in the West, this is because during the events of Daggerfall Talos being a God is never mentioned once in any of the Lore, and The Underking (The Undead Wizard who destroyed the Numidium mentioned in this video) AKA Zurin Arctus plays a significant role in the story, one of the endings has the player giving the Totem of Tiber Septim (The Totem is a device used to control the Numidium) to the Underking and he uses it to free his soul from the Mantella so he may finally die, it is through this act that the amalgamation of Zurin Artcus, Tiber Septim's and Ysmir Wulfharth's Souls ascend to Godhood by Mantling Lorkhan under the name Talos Stormcrown, and because activation of the Numidium causes a Dragonbreak, Talos' Apotheosis was retroactively inserted into history at the moment of Tiber Septim's Death (A Dragonbreak is an event in which the concept of Linear Time as we know it ceases to work, Time itself literally breaks, and impossible events become possible, such as the Totem of Tiber Septim being in the possession of the Kingdoms of Daggerfall, Wayrest and Sentinel as well as Emperor Uriel Septim VII, Gortwog King of the Orcs, Mannimarco The King of Worms AND the Underking all at the exact same time, all of the Endings of Daggerfall completely contradict one another, because it should be impossible for all of these people to have the Totem simultaneously, however because of the Warp in the West every single one of Daggerfall's Endings is 100% Canon)

[@sadservitor5362]

@@jaydenlobbe7911 Dragonbreaks are such a fun concept and the story opportunities that result from them are endless. "How is someone dead and alive at the same time? We don't know but it is very distressing to everyone involved."

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@jaydenlobbe7911 Talos achieving apotheosis during the Warp in the West is a fan theory with not a whole lot supporting it. He also did not mantle Lorkhan.

[@kp6669]

You had me at "shave his early beard". Solid work as ever!

[@Spike2276]

I wonder if Bethesda will pursue the Talos = new Lorkhan theory, it always seemed one of the juiciest considering the zealotry of the Thalmor against him

[@favlilnap]

Drew's channel needs more attention, such an amazing story teller and lore analyst..great content

[@LeonM4c]

Great video, really loved the little transition shot with the lightning strike showing the three phases of Talos. Great work as always.

[@rijona7575]

I don't know if it's been said before or if it's in the works but I'd love to see a Pelinal video in this style!

[@DrewmoraYT]

A Pelinal video is definitely on the way! But I want to take extra time to do him the justice he deserves 😊

[@johanobesusfatjohn5836]

@@DrewmoraYT I've wondered whether there might be a connection between the Reachmen and Pelinal. Was he a briar-heart, or the inspiration for them? Maybe they were the descendants of one of his "empires" that he supposedly ruled in the Merethic. Or maybe they were taught the practice by a god who was involved with whatever it was that took his heart and made him immortal. According to Khajiiti lore Kyne (Khenarthi), Hircine, and Azura were very friendly with each other, and Shor (Lorkaj) was Azura's beloved brother. All of them might have had an interest in Pelinal. Or, if you want to get really speculative, might he have been the last of the Wandering Elnofey, or at least closer to Elnofey than later men? We might suppose that the Wanderers, even if barbaric by their Old brethren's standards, were still more advanced than their descendants if they built the Skyforge. Perhaps Pelinal's armor was of a common design during the Dawn Era, maybe even made at the Skyforge. Imagine if Pelinal was on the battlefield when Shor fell. Maybe he conspired with Kyne and/or Azura to give his body to Shor. It didn't quite work, since Pelinal's soul remained, and anyway a mortal body, even one closer to Elnofey, couldn't hold a god's soul. But it did make him immortal and far stronger than any normal man, as well as completely insane. Maybe it was his grief/guilt over the ritual's failure that caused him to violently lash out when asked if was Shezarrine. This is probably a dumb idea, but maybe someone might like it.

[@Super50ldier]

​​@@johanobesusfatjohn5836 Pelinal Whitestrake was a Knight. I don't think the Reachmen are descendants of Pelinal's Empires.

[@johanobesusfatjohn5836]

@@Super50ldier Well you're a killjoy.😋 You're also wrong. It may be possible that a very early group of Atmorans built the skyforge, but it predates Ysgramor's invasion, and the old Falmer wouldn't talk about it's origins even when tortured. There is no cannon source telling us when or by whom it was made. That's given Drew the freedom to speculate that it dates to the Dawn War. Pelinal's origin is also never given. No cannon source tells us where or when he was born. All we are told is that he was around a very long time and that he wandered about building kingdoms and abandoning them. Since the Ayleids ruled Cyrodil for centuries before Alessia's rebellion, it is almost certain that some or most of his kingdoms were outside the region. There's no good reason why he couldn't have had a kingdom in the Reach at one point. Pelinal was _probably_ Shezarrine. Remember he got violently angry when asked. But assuming he was, that doesn't mean he was born so. The hero of the third game wasn't born the Nerevarine. He became the Nerevarine by mantling Nerevar. At least that's the general consensus among fans. It's deliberately left ambiguous. It is possible that Pelinal likewise mantled Shor, and removing his heart was part of the process. No other purported Shezarrine was said to have a gaping hole in his chest. If he chose to mantle Shor, that permits the possibility that he was there at the last battle. His armor was said to have been given to him by the eight Divines and seemed "futuristic." If, as according to the Nords, most of the Alessian divines sided with Shor, perhaps they gave Pelinal his armor during the war. It doesn't seem unreasonable that they provided arms and armor to the men/Ehlnofey fighting for them, or taught the mortals how to make them. Other than the divine origin, no history is given for the armor. There is no reason why it couldn't have been made at the skyforge. All of this is speculation for fun, and maybe you don't like it. That's fine. Maybe you prefer Kirkbright's story making Pelinal a time traveling cyborg. But the vague, ambiguous nature of Elder Scrolls lore allows for this sort of speculation/fan fiction. I'm pretty sure that none of this is specifically, unambiguously invalidated by canon sources.

[@ericdane7769]

Myth-building is one of the best aspects of TES, and Drew understands this well. Top notch content !

[@ForestKitty1000]

A delight to wait and to enjoy more lore videos well done!

[@cybersloth2467]

Thalmor propaganda

[@TheVioletBunny]

This is only something a milk drinker would say !!! How dare you !

[@idipped2521]

Cuhlecain is basically the TES version of Caesar and Talos is like Octavian

[@tobiasGR3Y]

*"I will not worship Hjalti, not because I cow to Elven instruction but because he is false!"* ChocolatePuppet or something.

[@aliteralbeaver5092]

You knocked it out of the park as always, Drew! This is easily one of the best videos explaining the complicated nature of Talos

[@PlebIsland69]

Love the dedication and love you put into your videos Drew! Awesome video!

[@nunyabizness6687]

The Greybeards proclaimed Tiber Dragonborn, so...

[@ThePrinceofPlots]

Can’t wait for Boethiah !!! Man this feels like 2018 for me when I first found FudgeMuppet!

[@harringtonmartin]

Drew chose violence

[@WeissM89]

I still wonder what the hell made people in Tamriel believe Septim become a god. Did something happen after his dead announcing his ascendance to godhood, or did they simply assume?

[@samiamtheman7379]

Probably the whole achieving CHIM thing. Also in Oblivion, the blood of a divine is required, and the only blood of a divine in the world is Tiber Septim's dried blood, which works.

[@youstolemyhandleyoutwat]

That is very BOLD of you, drewmora. Very bold indeed.

[@davepeesthepool]

There's a bit of hole in the idea that Talos himself wasn't dragonborn. The emperors of the Septim line would not have been able to light the dragon fires upon their coronation to uphold the barrier to the oblivion realms had the septim line not been of dragonborn blood.

[@trevorray4265]

Dash the thalmor, dash the empire. The nords will rise as the true high race of the mortal realm. Shor's armies will shout, and rend the land for man!

[@JakobRT]

I've thought about this character more so than any other, in my eyes Talos is representative of the ever changing and speculative Elder Scrolls lore. It all relies on the ending(s) of Daggerfall, specifically that the Underking is reunited with his soul. Elder Scrolls post daggerfall operates on different lore, but what if its actually a different timeline created by the Warp in The west. My thought is that the mantella was created from Hjalti's soul (making it so he would be in control of the Numidium), and then the gem would use Ysmir's spirit to power the Numidium. When Ysmir is confronted, dies, and kills Zurin; half of they're souls go into the mantella and the other halves go into the body of Zurin. Hjalti uses the Numidium to then conquer the High Elves. The Underking then tries to destroy the Numidium to return the souls to their rightful places but accidently send the mantella into Aetherius. The Underking is then unable to die because they are as a lich with the mantella being the phylactery. The timeline of Elder Scrolls 1 and 2 are without Hjalti being a god because he lacked the power of Ysmir to apotheosize. After Daggerfall the Underking's body, being that of Zurin, reunited with the correct soul and could finally rest. Now what happens to Ysmir's spirit? The timeline created by the warp (Elder Scrolls 3-5), I believe, is where the warp sends Ysmir's reformed spirit BACK in time to the last dragon break (the time when the Numidium was last destroyed) and from then on Hjalti is able to mantle Ysmir and apotheosize into Talos using CHIM. From these events (head cannon) Talos is able to also change cyrodiil from a jungle into woods and grasslands. Also I think my first character I create in Elder Scrolls 6 will be the agent from Daggerfall, having been sent forward in time by the warp in the west. I've spent many nights constructing this in my head hahaha.

[@matthewbutts2062]

I love the Shor/Lorkhan related lore the most.

[@Kucoz]

Ive heard this before, but not told so well. I feel like I truly know this heresy now. Well done.

[@alexboyd1565]

Amazing video!!! I love you ability to tell a story!! I also have to chuckle a little because the character model for Talos in this video makes me think of Leonard from Gopher’s play through!

[@breadman339]

nice, love this take on talos and good on you for looking so far into daggerfall era lore

[@ErnestoCifer]

I've been waiting for Drew's videos to pile up for a binge Time to start now

[@Little-Buster]

The BIG questions would be: 1. What is making the "Old Hroldan" sign move? 2. How did the gates of the town open outwards instead of inwards when Hjalti shouted at them?

[@Kieranh778]

I'm waiting for enough of these to release, so I can have the coziest Drewmora playlist to listen to while going to sleep, on the regular. I've listened to so much FM lore videos over the years like this, I've passively become an elder scrolls loremaster xD

[@badluck5647]

As a trickster, Talos lives up to the legacy of Lorkhan.

[@astraeanova4280]

A truly fascinating account, thank you. You've given me much to think about.

[@kadirbariskose]

This video brought joy to my traffic stuck, long and boring bus trip. Thanks Drewmora :)

[@alanolex3962]

Drew is talking mad shit for somebody in thu'um distance.

[@amyduncancinder]

Mr. Drew, another very inspirational telling, Sir! I have to admit, I've always thought there was something a little "off" about Talos (or whatever name he is using - LOL). I never believed a mere assassin, no matter how artful and clever, could have overcome Tiber Septim to actually get to the emperor and kill him before Tiber Septim got the assassin...a little sus, if you ask me. I'm no loremaster and I don't pretend to understand most of the lore in Skyrim but even logic has to come to play, doesn't it? Hearing your backup information has only solidified my own beliefs. Thank you, kind Sir.

[@kaylethstarbane7800]

Fantastic, superb, and exciting. Great work.

[@TheSidewinder93]

I like the idea of the ascended Talos being triune, or three-headed. The combined minds of Tiber Septim (T), Zurin Arcturus (A), and Wulfarth the incarnation of Lorkhan (L) collectively forming the operating system (OS) of the numidium, and later the god Talos.

[@W4iteFlame]

This one is underrated

[@feje_]

Another banger! I love this channel so much, keep up the amazing work!

[@heskiador2752]

HERETIC! THE GOD EMPEROR PROTECTS... oh wait wrong emperor.

[@scottblevins4298]

Awesome episode...deep dives into the lore always amaze and surprise me

[@joby-wankenobinolan3428]

What about the amulet of kings, you can only wear it if you're dragonborn, talos not only wore it but so did his heirs including his last heir martin septim who transformed into the avatar of akatosh to defeat mehrunes dagon.

[@ScottieDo]

I don’t like to get political, but this seems like a typical Thalmor smear campaign

[@Ali-ey9sz]

Absolutely brilliant, I love the story of Tiber Septim. Keep up the brilliant work Drew.

[@syoudipta]

"Unless the nightblade wanted to shave Hjalti's early beard..."! LoL

[@DeanoBeano2077]

Another banger Drew keep up the amazing work!!

[@matthewbutts2062]

Something I wish to see replicated for the Elder Scrolls World, do you remember Shoddy cast and their Original Series& Character "The Storyteller" for the Fallout franchise. I would love to see Drew and Scott and their Elder Scrolls Player Characters traveling the Elder Scrolls Universe while telling the stories behind each place they visit.

[@MaxPowers2.0]

Man WHY dont you have more subscribers? Your lore videos are incredible. Your research, your voice, your visuals really pulls you into the story, and helps to build a world that seems so real. I love your videos.

[@fearlessretaliator4997]

Thalmor got my boye Drew i wasnt expecting this.

[@johnsmith6497]

I instantly blurted out a WHAT!? when I read the title I say it's blasphemy

[@dustinhatfield8373]

Im glad to have found your new channel Drew. Your content was always my favorite to listen to on your previous channel. One question though, if Tiber Septim wasnt actually Dragonborn.... how could he or his descendants wear the amulet?

[@DrewmoraYT]

Thanks, Dustin! I should have gone into this in the video, but I think It has to do with Wulfharth, who we know was Dragonborn. Vivec says that when Tiber wore the Amulet it 'looked like shackles' for the 'twin-headed king', and my interpretation is that the Amulet was part of what bound the two (Tiber and Wulfharth) together.

[@dustinhatfield8373]

@@DrewmoraYT ill have to to give it a relisten, if you covered that i comoletely missed it! I was listening while working after all. Would that make it possible for his children to carry it too? I wonder if he was dragonborn regardless but just didnt have the skill with the thu'um Wulfarth did

[@sammyvillano9502]

It’s another great instance in the Elderscrolls we’re three personalities mantel one god

[@Ashock88]

Love this channel! Your videos are top notch. I’d love to watch you do Skyrim playthrough. That would be amazing.

[@midnightlemon4255]

I've been into Skyrim lore for a while and I feel like I understand Talos's ascension so much better now, thank you

[@socuciusergalla3241]

thalmor propaganda

[@sk8legendz]

I have never seen Ulfric's Dossier discussed when debating Stormcloaks vs Imperials I think you should take a closer look at it and really pay attention to various wording. It outright states Ulfric as being a cooperative asset to the Thalmor. They actively supply the stormcloaks with aid. I think it would be worth touching on.

[@stevenhiggins3055]

It never says "cooperative" just that he's an "asset", which anything or anyone the Thamor think could be useful to them in any way, even while actively working against them, are classified as.

[@sk8legendz]

@@stevenhiggins3055 it does say he is cooperative you need to read it again,

[@sk8legendz]

@@stevenhiggins3055 It says he's an asset. that was initially open to direct contact and cooperation but now only accepts indirect contact and has been overall *less cooperative*

[@javedshhhh]

I’ve literally never properly understood the Arcturian Heresy until today thanks so much! Sounds terrible but I don’t really watch fudgemuppet now you’re not there. These are the videos that I love and want not a 40 minute video roleplaying somebody else’s build and backstory with 10 adverts 😂😂

[@thehappypittie]

Im not saying he's not shady but as for the nightblade that slit his throat, it very well could just be a lie. But his ability to shout was also a symbol of his power and enemies would want to take that away so it has a fair bit of validity too. I chose to belieeeve. Edit: Just finished the last bit and yep I think youre spot on.

[@OfficialChrissums]

Hes also many headed because unlike vivec he derived his power from worship from the multitudes of humans on tamriel.

[@gerbenvanegmond4007]

It's been a long time since I heard unis much lore on Talos, and man did I love this opportunity to change that

[@dicynodon1018]

Another masterpiece, Thanks Drew ❤

[@meepmorp3569]

Bah, this is obviously Thalmor propaganda

[@juggernaut3278]

Wow, this was great Drew!!! Cheers

[@CommentaryCommenter]

Hey, Drew! I would love a video that shares your opinion regarding the true nature of Talos, compiling the entire life story of Tiber Septim/Stormcrown/Hjalti and the Underking. Basically, with all of these differing accounts regarding the end of the Second Era and beginning of the Third, I’d love a concise explanation of everything.

[@Strydom_]

Thalmor have corrupted Drew!

[@willreaver1425]

Very informative, but it's the after all that, that confuses me. The blood of the divine found on tyber septum's armor, the blessing from the talos shrine which was needed to become a knight of the nine, or how only a septum could light the dragon fires that held back the gates of oblivion for so long. Could you explain that and still make it fit (other than bethesda did an oopise with the lore)? You have to admit it would be an interesting topic to cover.

[@HenryGreenEngine3]

If you want to etch yourself into the annals of history you need to spill some blood..

[@vibes5805]

I've always thought of it as Hjalti being very upfront about this combination of Talos, but the Elder Council completely obscured it after Talos's apotheosis for some reason or another.

[@drumfan9461]

I would love it if Bethesda hired you as a lore writer for TES. I can’t think of anyone better to write lore for this franchise.

[@mildlydazed9608]

Wake up new Drewmora video my friends.