Driver's View St Kilda Junction to University

[@29brendus]

Great journey, very enjoyable. Australia has one of the most sophisticated traffic light systems in the world (SCATS), developed over 50 years and still is being improved. Time allocated for trams at every junction is actually more generous in terms of priority than for all other road users. It is hard to appreciate that when held up for a short while at some intersections; But just try picking up a newspaper to read an article; The go signal, whether for tram or car or bus, cyclist or pedestrian, will appear before you even get into 1 sentence, and therefore everything regarding 'wait time' [known as delay] is relative. The SCATS system has to consider traffic flow as a whole, for everybody, and up to 20 junctions away from wherever or however, you might be travelling. It does a damn great job, keeping everybody moving and everybody safe. Ideally trams might have a totally dedicated grade seperated network, but then they would not be trams anymore, they would be a metro system. Don't be too frustrated, be happy that the traffic signal system is as good as it is.

[@tressteleg1]

@@29brendus I am well aware of SCATS and what it can do. However having been a tram driver in Melbourne and an annual visitor making my videos, it is perfectly clear to me that Melbourne trams provoke absolutely no traffic light priority and that when a tram does promptly get a T light, it is purely by chance, just the same as when traffic lights slam red in the face of a nearing tram. Traffic light programmers obviously have no interest in giving trams any priority whatsoever, and only give in some places a “7 second“ T lights or right turn green arrows when the lights were going to change anyway. Canberra and to a reasonable degree Sydney also put the Melbourne operation to shame. I regularly use the Gold Coast tram which DOES have priority with lights often changing for the tram before it has even stopped. About the only time it can fail to give immediate priority is when another tram has just gone in the opposite direction. The result is the trams here run like clockwork, nearly all arriving within a minute or two of the timetable.

[@29brendus]

@@tressteleg1 Thanks for your response. I have to dig a bit deeper, as I was a developer and tester of of SCATS and am a traffic engineer. I really enjoyed the journey and might get a chance to revisit Melbourne next year. Melbourne differs from Sydney and Canberra insofar as it has a huge network, and therefore even trams get in the way of trams, and furthermore that might mean that priority cannot be so obvious. In other words, trams are less of a minority than perhaps other places. Keep the vids coming!

[@tressteleg1]

@@29brendus Yes I guessed that you were involved somehow with SCATS. I suggest you watch some tram videos made by schony747 (who I know personally) as he does not edit out pause times, then compare it with one of mine which includes dwell times. Gold Coast Tram Traffic Priority kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZ3IkmOvasaBgKM When I drove the 96 1988 until Kennett ruined things around 1992, Melbourne’s ‘Showpiece’ line, Sunday mornings we did the round trip East Brunswick to St Kilda Beach and back in 90 minutes. With 40 years gone since then, that journey takes substantially longer with all the ‘help’ SCATS does not provide. In Melbourne, road traffic comes first. Trams just muck things up. Fools!

[@29brendus]

@@tressteleg1 I will certainly check out your link. I have just completed my involvement with Edinburgh tram extension, which again is only an extension to the one existing line, and it runs in a medieval city on very narrow streets in part. It is not SCATS, but rather UK UTC and MOVA which is an awful system compared with SCATS, MOVA being much better in isolation. As a traffic engineer, I felt really constrained by the policy decisions especially for the cycle lane anarchy which pervades Ireland and the UK. Take a look if you have time. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2KroqaQbKuErZIsi=6lmyGhKBElkNDOco

[@tressteleg1]

@@29brendus Maybe this video will interest you. Obviously there are imbalances, like the 96 having more stops even though some had been removed a few years earlier. However much of the L2 has a silly 20 k speed limits in George St. nevertheless you will see L2 delayed for much less time at traffic lights. Personally I think the light programmers were ‘dragged kicking and screaming’ into giving L2 and L3 trams priority, and this has gradually improved, and vastly, since the 2019 opening. Bridge St remains somewhere needing attention, unless done since February. Which Tram is Slower? Sydney L2 or Melbourne 96? kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXuapKdvmdNjl9U

[@Dexter225588]

Loves that E class so smooth and fast also love to hear beautiful sound ding ding it different to old tram :)

[@peterd4429]

Tressteleg1 what are they going to build if they are removing the Tram tracks at the University tram stop?

[@scottyerkes1867]

Great ride! Thanks tressteleg1👍😀👌🚋

[@tressteleg1]

@@scottyerkes1867 👍👍

[@j_y_]

Yay! New upload! Today I spent "a bit of time (4 hours)" riding Alamein shuttles and I saw the platform camera screen shutter in action at Riversdale! There is about a 4 minute cooldown after the train passes before the shutter rolls down, pretty sick!

[@j_y_]

At the very start of the video, where route 16 joins into the tracks, why do the tracks not merge until after the crossing? To preserve the points from car traffic?

[@j_y_]

Also, why are the points at 13:05 and 21:00 allowed to be passed without stopping? Is it amnual operation only? for the ones at the Arts Center is it because you can continue back onto the mainline track even if you go off course?

[@tressteleg1]

@@j_y_ Totally unnecessary to do it this way. Not done in Europe. Approaching the junction, yes, for a number of reasons. Trailing, just slick salesmen overselling to gullible customers.

[@tressteleg1]

@@j_y_ I would have thought the shutter would have come down much faster, but have never watched. Plenty of time for vandals to spray the screens with paint.

[@tressteleg1]

@@j_y_ There is a new standard of ‘automatic points’ which double checks the lay of the point blades which prevent the indicator from showing OK unless points are perfectly set. All compulsory stops are marked by 2 parallel yellow lines between the rails. With these points the yellow lines are each split into 3 parts so trams need not stop and run at ?15 km/h. On my local Gold Coast line, main line trams on the straight are permitted to do 40 km/h through the triangular depot junction. Will Melbourne ever get that daring? Doubt it.

[@williamoreilly4479]

I agree with your comment re Federation Square vs Flinders Street station. Good ride. A lot of changes since my last visit.

[@tressteleg1]

@@williamoreilly4479 👍👍. Also sounds like another visit is overdue 😊

[@williamoreilly125]

@@tressteleg1 If only! In the meantime your tram rides keep me going.

[@AndrewCastlemaine]

Another enjoyable tram trundle along St Kilda Rd. Question::: will the Toorak trams (ex 8 now 58) revert to the traditional Domain Road / Park Street / Toorak Road route rather than turning straight into Toorak Road? Has that been confirmed at this stage?

[@tressteleg1]

@@AndrewCastlemaine Only in the last week or so it was announced that Domain Road will be served by existing bus routes which will be diverted that way. This is despite spending money on a raised platform stop in Domain Road close to Saint Kilda Road and Anzac station. Although connected, no tram use has been announced.

[@James.Jacks0n]

0:56 route 5 also enters on the right

[@tressteleg1]

@@James.Jacks0n I should have remembered that.

[@noddy8607]

Seems that tram/train arrangement at Anzac Station will be vey convenient for passengers when completed.

[@tressteleg1]

@@noddy8607 Yes, with the other intent being to reduce the number of people travelling by tram from Flinders Street station to office blocks all along Saint Kilda Road.

[@voltare2amstereo]

0:26 is there a specific reason to to the points like that? seems semi redundant , parallel same direction when the points are away from the interception like that

[@tressteleg1]

@@voltare2amstereo While it is desirable in the facing direction, totally unnecessary in trailing direction and not done in Europe. It seems to me that the tramway has been victims of slick talking salesmen. There is absolutely no benefit in delaying the entering track from joining the main line immediately it can.

[@voltare2amstereo]

@tressteleg1 have the same on the Goldcoast g-link under the uni or hospital i think

[@j_y_]

@@tressteleg1 Wait from what I'm reading have you moved to Europe???

[@tressteleg1]

@ Yes, that’s right, and used to access the ‘Hollows Way’ siding which was the way that the line was originally intended to get to the railway station. And as with Melbourne, they were duped into having the duplicated track in the trailing direction as well, totally unnecessary.

[@tressteleg1]

@ Whatever makes you think that? Travelled to Europe a number of times between 1975 and 1992, have not been back, and have no plans to do so. Just about all the interesting old stuff has gone. But that’s where I first saw those “pre-selecting“ points, and a very long time ago too.

[@justinwright4833]

What is the route that comes in from the left at 12:18?

[@tressteleg1]

@@justinwright4833 Looks like I was careless again. Rt 1

[@justinwright4833]

@tressteleg1 haha that's ok, thanks for your reply!,

[@peterausfranken]

Swanson Street today, almost no car traffic. Swanson Street in the old days. Trams running down and a lot of traffic in two lanes at each side. Tram stops with a very small Safety Zone. I wonder why the old signal box at the Victoria Street terminus is still there

[@tressteleg1]

@@peterausfranken I was driving when Swanston St had normal traffic, but also also the start of no traffic. I remember being told by some town official that I must not go faster than 30 along the street. I told him they have given us no extra time for the run so did not slow down. The creation of the raised stops came after I left. At least it does not have the 10k speed limit of the Bourke St Mall. The signal box remains as a historic building so will stay forever.

[@peterausfranken]

I remember in the old days. Some tram drivers had very good speed with the old W Class trams in Swanson Street.

[@Dexter225588]

I was in melbourne early February this year yes was at anzac square (name of change) constructions before there we were forced to get off the tram and walk all the way to south bank and over the bridge to flinders station on hot day 36C eewwwww i really enjoyed catching up with friends in melbourne, Im not sure when i will be coming back and see how much has change at St kilda junction (love to see more improvement and safety) i never forget black spot few times car accident between trams on that junction

[@tressteleg1]

@@Dexter225588 I’m a bit confused. Nothing has changed at St Kilda Junction for decades. But if you meant to say Anzac station, you were not informed well by those officials present. You could have used the 58 (or at times 67a) to get into William St where you could have then transferred to another tram to get to Swanston St or wherever you needed to go.

[@peterausfranken]

St Klida Junction was rebulided from a big roundabout to the stage of today in 1967 and 1968. The only change in all the years are the graffitis on the concrete Walls.

[@tressteleg1]

@ My first trip to Melbourne was in 1965 at Easter. I suppose I may have ridden through the old Saint Kilda Junction then, but if so don’t remember it at all. During one of my trips, work was under way building the present arrangement but still a long way to go. I also missed East Coburg in single track days, but with a big system and no guidance, I was sure to miss something.

[@peterausfranken]

@@tressteleg1 My parents had friends and there house was near St Klida Junction. As a 3 oder 4 year old boy i remember a lot of building at that time. In 1969 when i was 5 we could drive along the new Queensway By Pass. I also remember riding with a tram on route 5 before St Klida Junction was rebuilt. The short ride in Wellington Street was a bottleneck an toke sometime nearly 15 minutes for a tram to take ist smalltalk section.

[@tressteleg1]

@ Having family in a particular area often created great childhood memories from occasional visits. I also don’t remember Wellington Street with trams, but could well imagine it being a nightmare with traffic trying to reach the start of Dandenong Road. I am 19 years older than you, essentially with no family connection in Melbourne, so my visits were once or twice a year, nothing like living there. This Saint Kilda Junction video has raised a lot of discussion, some being directed to tram speeds. How would you describe speeds in Melbourne with any Tramway in Germany you are reasonably familiar with? My geography is rough, but I think Hanover might be comparatively near you.

[@granthogden4732]

What's happening at the end? Are they digging up the sidings at university tram stop? What are they going to do there? Or is that somewhere else?

[@tressteleg1]

@@granthogden4732 Just a standard replacement of worn out old track. Unfortunately my holiday ended before the job was completed, but it probably looks very much the same as it did just before the end of this video.

[@peterausfranken]

Old track? And at other places the tracks are 40, 50 or more years old and still in good conditions

[@tressteleg1]

@@peterausfranken Straight track can last almost “forever“. Curves and point work are totally different matter and wear out very much quicker. At this location it was easier to replace the whole lot than just dig out junctions and curved track one by one. I don’t think there is any routine oiling at places like this so the rails do wear out quite quickly. Don’t forget that about six routes terminate here, all operating on frequent headways.

[@peterausfranken]

​@@tressteleg1👍

[@29brendus]

Dear Tressteleg1, after taking a closer, [but not in-depth[, look at the journey, it seems you passed through (approximately) 26 sets of traffic signals where you were not confronted with a red signal, or where there were no tram signal aspects at all, such as near Stops. You sailed through 12 on 'T' white. At some others you were not delayed more than a few seconds (noting time edited out), but were held up at 3 or 4 for less than 1 minute. To put matters into perspective, it seems you were 'delayed more by those pesky people getting on and off, and by having other trams in front of you, or joining ahead of you. Your average progress was delayed more in the City Centre, which is to be expected, as you cross more tramlines and vehicular traffic and pedestrains, and share with RT vehicles. I daresay you did pretty well in comparison to just about every other road user?

[@Bobrogers99]

A very busy route! It wouldn't cost a fortune to install sensors at some of those intersections and program the lights for tram priority, especially when traffic is not heavy. The technology has been used for years. During heavy commuter traffic they have to keep cars moving, but it seems silly to have a tram sit at a traffic light when there are no cars at all passing through the intersection! Tram users are keeping their cars off the roads, and reducing the time of tram routes makes them a more desirable choice.

[@tressteleg1]

@@Bobrogers99 in my opinion the traffic light programmers have spent the last 80+ years perfecting the art of delaying Melbourne trams as much as possible and they are not gonna give up any time soon. Unfortunately governments are not smart enough to realise they are being duped. The lack of priority makes Melbourne a second rate tramway.

[@Bobrogers99]

@@tressteleg1 There seems to have been a lot of money spent on trains/subways to bring people from suburbs to workplaces and shops in the city, but the trams do the work of moving people around within the city. The better it functions, the fewer cars that need to be on the streets. Melbourne still has the world's largest tram system, but they have to keep up with the times.

[@tressteleg1]

@ It’s 40 years since I drove in Melbourne, and I often ride the 96 which I used to drive. Apartfrom a few “7 second“ T lights which help a little bit, nothing has been done to improve tram traffic speed and certainly absolutely no priority atlights anywhere. I expect that the traffic light controllers have every excuse in the world not to give this to trams.

[@29brendus]

Sensors are already present. Australia has one of the most sophisticated traffic light systems in the world (SCATS), developed over 50 years and still is being improved. Time allocated for trams at every junction is actually more generous than for all other road users. It is hard to appreciate that when held up for a short while at some intersections; The SCATS system has to consider traffic flow as a whole, for everybody, and up to 20 junctions away from wherever or however, you might be travelling. It does a damn great job, keeping everybody moving and everybody safe. Ideally trams might have a totally dedicated grade seperated network, but then they would not be trams anymore, they would be a metro system. Whatever kind of a road user you might be? Be happy that the traffic signal system is as good as it is.

[@Bobrogers99]

@@29brendus It's good that Melbourne already has a good signal system. It's just that my observation of some tram videos shows trams sitting at an empty intersection waiting a while for the light to change. Apparently the sophisticated system isn't in use everywhere or it's out of adjustment.

[@peterd4429]

Tressteleg1 what are they going to build if they are removing the Tram tracks at the University tram stop?

[@tressteleg1]

NEW TRACKS THERE! This is a standard track renewal practice all over Melbourne, except this is just more complicated with all the sidings.