DS9 Weyoun and art (Favor the Bold)

[@potaterjim]

I love the subtle horror of the Weyouns: The founders didn't want a species of thinkers or aspirants, people that could rebel or prove problematic, so they took away their ability to enjoy anything. They can't sing, they can't understand or appreciate art, they can't even taste food. It's the ultimate form of control: They have no desire to be free, because they don't understand what desire is in the first place

[@mankyscotchgit4986]

He likes Dabo though.

[@mattevans4377]

@@mankyscotchgit4986 Not because it is actually fun though. It's the strategist hard wired into him that makes him want to win, so his brain encourages him to play, like how nicotine in cigarettes makes you want more cigarettes.

[@bluerisk]

Wasn't their species artificially enhanced? If so, their biological evolution surpassed not only many critical steps, but they also lack the entire cultural and technological evolution of a natural species

[@calebgarrett214]

That is exactly why socialism/communism doesnt work. Humans have the innate desire for more.

[@Kalenz1234]

@@calebgarrett214 What has that to do with socialism?

[@iksarguards]

“Impossible. You can’t release a man and then execute him, it makes no sense” LOL

[@espositogregory]

Tell that to Texas. We resuscitated death-row inmates DAYS prior to executing them.... Ah, where do the tax dollars all slip away to??? hehe

[@Mxlsptlk]

Rom is a diabolical genius. It's a shame that only the Federation's enemies recognize that.

[@mavoc3094]

Grand Nagus Rom is a diabolical genius. fixed

[@user-rr6jj5mr6f]

Lucius Stryker if he had one bad bone in his body he'd rule half the quadrant by now

[@TheAtkey]

@@user-rr6jj5mr6f Didn't he try to blow Quark out of an airlock once?

[@davidjones3165]

@@user-rr6jj5mr6f wives serve brothers inherit

[@David-wo7nt]

@@TheAtkey Yes, but i mean... It's Quark, venting him is more like a moral gray zone.

[@vurrunna]

"The Dominion has a dim view on terrorism." He says to the ex-terrorist. Man, this scene is just dripping with intrigue.

[@AvangionQ]

"The Dominion takes a dim view of terrorism" ... except when they're the ones causing it. See all the episodes where a changeling infiltrator did damage and caused widespread fear. Reminds me of a George Carlin ten commandments joke: it all depends on who's doing the killing and who's getting killed.

[@6Qubed]

@@AvangionQ when the Founders do it, it's called "bringing order to the unruly solids"

[@rowlandbuck2703]

Politics is always whatever’s best at the moment. It doesn’t matter if you are a hypocrite next week. Nobody will care.

[@erikshure360]

@@6Qubed well, they are bringing order -- their order. I see no fault there, of course they are going to have a problem with terrorists who threaten their order. It's all a matter of perspective.

[@Veridiano02]

@@erikshure360 Metagenic virus, you say? Well, it's my order. Sorry if it's gonna exterminate your entire species. But it's my understaing of nature. I don't like my soup when it's alive.

[@Kalenz1234]

0:27 "You asked to see me, major?" Kira did not barge in on him. This was an appointment. He deliberately prepared the painting. When Kira asked for an appointment, obviously Weyoun highly suspected it would be about Rom. He wanted to show Kira how little he and by the extension the Dominion cares about the Bajorans but in true diplomatic fashion do so without outright saying it. By making the matter of the painting more important than her request or threat of political pressure by the Bajoran government he achieved that perfectly well. 2:54 "Would this be more aesthetically pleasing if it were blue?" to really hit the nail home and get the message across. Brilliantly written character, in a brilliantly written scene, portrayed by an amazing actor.

[@BladeOfLight16]

It's spelled "major."

[@Kalenz1234]

@@BladeOfLight16 ty

[@hellohypo2009]

Let's be honest here... Gul Dukat is the real manipulator here. He gave an award wining piece of art to a race that cant experience beauty, knowing that weyoun would simply strugle to appreciate it. Subtlety destroying the connection of the founders to god hood.... Why would my god make me unable to view beauty? Gul was planting this in more than one scene.

[@hellohypo2009]

Great take on the psychology of the scene though, i hadn't even noticed the plying of interests from his view point....

[@zxKAOS1]

@@hellohypo2009 _Oh, I'm sure she'll understand. But if she doesn't, I look forward to meeting Weyoun 9_ ~Damar :D

[@itsbloodytommy]

I always thought there was a subtle tragedy to the way Combs played Weyoun. Like he straddled the line between fun campiness and moments of you feeling sorry for him and the Vorta

[@RequiemPoete]

And moments you wanted to exterminate him and his entire constructed zealot race. Remember. Weyoun might want to genuinely be liked by people and understand others, but he wouldn't hesitate to wipe out your home if he thought the Founders wished it.

[@davidfoxall3344]

Venge Ance the reason she wasn’t and instead stood trial was to make the point that unlike the Dominion that the Federation do not take an absolutist view of crime and morality

[@LloydWaldo]

You’re right. That is absolutely how he was written, and combs plays him just right. He’s a villain, but you have the sense he has potential to be more, if only he were truly free.

[@OrricktheAlien]

itsbloodytommy he illustrates the plight of angles, where there is no free will but a hint on the world outside their purview

[@Haldei]

@@RequiemPoete Hes a fucking bioslave. His entire species is tragic

[@annehaight9963]

The wistful, innocent music they give Weyoun at the beginning when he's contemplating the painting is heartbreaking. There's so much missing from him and he kind of knows it, and wishes things were different. But he's incapable of overcoming the intensity of his genetic programming.

[@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus]

Makes you wonder if this particular clone (it's 5 I think?) also was "defective" like the one that followed him. He does seem to behave somewhat differently from the later Weyoun clones.

[@TheHopperUK]

@@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus Yeah this is 5, the most long-running of the Weyouns we get to see. I think you might be right - that little streak of independent thought and doubt seems present in most of them.

[@Slopmaster]

At more than one point, it’s clearly said the Vorta’s sway over the Jem’Hadar isn’t as strong as they would like to think. I also like to think that the Founders sway over the Vorta isn’t as strong either.

[@lennierofthethirdfaneofchu7286]

@@Slopmaster Weyoun 1 was killed by Jem'Hadar for doubting their loyalty. Jeffery Combs did such an outstanding job as Weyoun that the producers and writers had to retcon in Vorta cloning to get multiple versions of Weyoun so they could bring Combs back.

[@Kakuretaka]

@@lennierofthethirdfaneofchu7286 that was 4

[@theGhoulman]

I love how Jeffrey Combs says "gods". So indignant. "Gauds don't make mistakes." ;D

[@jonathanbradshaw2293]

Jeffrey Combs is god

[@veritasg9020]

GAWDs :D!

[@davidfoxall3344]

It’s a bit like being a religious fundamentalist and being told the God you worship is imperfect

[@erikshure360]

@@davidfoxall3344 I wonder how Kira would feel if he insulted her gods -- the prophets.

[@katlyn3248]

It's that tone and way of speaking he has that I always recognize when he's playing other characters

[@aurex8937]

To be honest, I think that painting *would* be more aesthetically pleasing if it were blue.

[@DaytonaRoadster]

no, no it would not. Red Black and White are the Power Colors. Their is a reason they are commonly used on flags and sports cars

[@firstnamelastname9237]

I kind of agree. Might depend on its surroundings though.

[@tradtke101]

Isn't that the point? That maybe Weyoun DID have artistic sensibilities, but simply didn't realize it because he'd never developed them. Or maybe his striking blue eyes make him just prefer things in blue? In any event, great line.

[@0hvist]

The perfect color to pair with the reds, whites, and blacks would have to be a burnt orange that ever-so-subtly underlines the reds in order to give the work a sense of depth. It would change the whole perspective of the piece to make it seem as though the viewer is "looking up".

[@mrredherring2900]

"I think it would be nice to be able to carry a tune". I love the way J. Combs delivers this line. There's a certain sadness in his voice that makes me feel for him and his people.

[@Alamandorious]

Weyoun the likeable villain.

[@geistxx]

"Would this be more aesthetically pleasing if it were blue?" Is also a callback to one of Data's lines in TNG.

[@SlimPotatoCube]

Which one?

[@geistxx]

I went back to check, and I couldn't find it. I distinctly remember an episode of TNG where Data held a grayish painting of a flower and asking someone, possibly Picard, if it would be more aesthetically pleasing if it were blue. When I first saw Favor the Bold and heard Weyoun say that line, I immediately thought of the earlier instance where Data said the same thing... but perhaps I was just misremembering. Data did say "aesthetically pleasing" several times, so maybe I was just remembering that and my brain added the rest.

[@mattb2842]

@@geistxx Not sure about the line, but you made me realize Data and Weyoun have some weirdly specific things in common: They are both beings who were created/designed by another race. They've both had multiple versions made of each of them, Data's brothers and Weyoun's clones. And THOSE all end up having their memories transferred between one another at some point. Data and Weyoun also seem to have the same skin color, hair color, and they've each pissed off Worf to various degrees.

[@soakingbook]

I wonder if Weyoun already knew what Kira was going to ask and chose to discuss the painting with her only as a means of gaining the final rhetorical upper hand.

[@thiagodeandrade7081]

I think he was just trying to annoy her talking about something "irrelevant" when she wanted to discuss business.

[@95DarkFire]

At 1:03 you can see how he has to convince himself that everything the Founders do is right. He propably knows inside that they are not perfect gods.

[@APCLZ]

...and that's what good acting is

[@howardlanus8610]

A bit of foreshadowing for Treachery, Faith, and the Great River eh?

[@UmbreonMessiah]

He should also know from studying other cultures that Gods *do indeed make mistakes.*

[@mreid86]

This scene makes me think that Weyoun 5 was just as defective as 6 but unwilling to act on it. He's just so different from 7 and 8..

[@annehaight9963]

@@mreid86 Weyoun 5 was insatiably curious. He collected souvenirs from his various missions and encounters. But he never defied the Founders. Weyoun 6 took that a step further and his curiosity about things he didn't understand suddenly became an ability to think outside the genetic box that had been made for him. That allowed him to question the Founders' motives and methods.

[@tarn1135]

Weyoun was perhaps the most enjoyable characters in this show

[@calebgarrett214]

Shran well same guy

[@salilbhatnagar]

Maybe he should talk to WORF again?

[@BoydTheMilkmanX]

Garak and Weyoun were my favs.

[@DutchGuyMike]

His actor was really passionate about playing Weyoun (less so about Brunt).

[@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus]

Apparently a lot of people thought so, because he was initially supposed to be a one-off character. The concept of all Vorta being clones was introduced later, specifically to bring him back and please the section of the audience that liked him.

[@2Scribble]

0:03 - I love how desperately Weyoun wants to 'understand' the painting - failing to grasp that you don't 'understand' a painting - you appreciate it

[@pirobot668beta]

I would love to listen in on the debate of the value of art, with Weyoun and Admiral Thrawn taking the opposing views. The Admiral knows deep down that a cultures appreciation of art reveals much about how they face life, and how willing they are to fight. The Vorta could never understand such subtly of mind, and so fail as they often do. Everything 'missing' from the Vorta are the things that would have let them be their own people.

[@animationfanatic2133]

Tuesdays with thrawn

[@nepntzerZer]

No. You're either for or against. You have to pick a side you're not allowed to like both.

[@davidfoxall3344]

Weyoun was probably genetically engineered to be a diplomat, despite his non existent aesthetic appreciation he was made to be personable to give people a false sense of security. That and the Founders did not wish to dirty their hands dealing with solids, the female changeling is the spokesperson for her race 1) because they are a gestalt species and 2) because solid matters are beneath the link and having too many would prefer not to engage in such a one dimensional and limiting universe.

[@GayIncel]

Not probably, That's just true.

[@Maulinator69]

The depth of character conveyed in the thoughtful silences alone by Combs here as Weyoun deserves accolade. Such an underated and underused actor.

[@andrewlocke3389]

He was great on Babylon 5.

[@mreid86]

@@andrewlocke3389 He was on Babylon 5?

[@PixelThorn]

@@andrewlocke3389 what did he play on Babylon 5?

[@andrewlocke3389]

@@PixelThorn in Season 1 there was an episode called, "Eyes". An Earthforce Colonel was trying to take control of the station away from Sinclair. He played the telepath in that episode. You can also go to imdb for the complete list of his acting chops.

[@andrewlocke3389]

@@mreid86 missed your comment. See my comment here.

[@nosorab3]

Weyoun tries, and I admire him for that

[@KingreX32]

I'd love to see what the vorta are like after the dominion war.

[@kelechi321]

Damn I never thought about that...man the cultural analysis this show allowed and all the other ones we didnt get to see. The Vorta society most certainly had one epic melt down. Cause if I recall correct this war was their first defeat ever. So that certainly shook a lot of faith in their Shapeshifting gods.

[@fryfry377]

um... probably just the same shit they were up to in the Gamma Quadrant before the war. Just because a peace was signed doesn't mean the Dominion fell or changed radically.

[@backwhenarmyoftwofirstcame2873]

Vorta would probably commit mass suicide. They're lost without the founders.

[@SupesMe]

Interesting Question. Maybe Like Rome after the Fall? They seem kind of "Romanesce" to me

[@datfisheboi6519]

Probably exactly the same. The Dominion probably wouldn’t be affected in the gamma quadrant too much, with reduced confidence in the dominion probably being the only real major effects.

[@Mourtzouphlos240]

The most disturbing thing about Vorta having no literal or metaphorical sense of taste is that they can't have a culture. Think about it. What makes a culture? Food. Art. Literature. Songs. Dancing. All those things are denied to them. Of course this is to strip them of the ability to have a nationalistic movement or something but still that is fucked up.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

They're basically slaves whose only purpose is to benefit and serve the founders nothing else...in fact they're often killed and or purged without a second thought. What i love is you get a sense of this in this scene, the tragedy of someone who wishes to have a purpose beyond his intended one but is genetically maligned to not be able to do that.

[@jerwin2885]

That is a bloody brilliant analysis. I have never even considered that aspect of the Vorta. Thank you for sharing your insights!

[@erikshure360]

Why is it fucked up exactly? It's only fucked if you value culture. If you don't really value culture then what does it matter? The Vorta were primitive primates before the founders came along and gave them more complex features. For all we know they simply never had culture so they never had a need to value it.

[@qasimmir7117]

@@erikshure360 No, it was deliberately done by the writers to show that they do not have the desire to be free because they don’t know what desire is.

[@davidbuckley2435]

@@erikshure360 Culture is part of what it means to be human. We evolved a sense of culture as a means to form stronger social bonds with other humans. It is central to what it means to be a fully sapient and sentient being. It allows us to define ourselves and carve a place for ourselves in the world. Everything you are, everything you believe, everything you like and dislike, love and hate is influenced by your cultural upbringing, and in turn you contribute to the culture in which you live, just by living. Even the way you pronounce certain words are informed by and inform your culture. To have that opportunity taken away from you at a genetic level would change who you are as a person. It goes beyond not being able to enjoy art, music or food. You would be rendered unable to have an opinion about it. Art just becomes part of your environment, music is just noise, food is only a thing that you consume so that you don't die. You can't appreciate the flavour, or wonder if it would be better with a touch more pepper or salt. That is made utterly irrelevant to you. We don't know much about the Vorta's pre-Dominion nature, but it is likely that they were a social species. They might even have had the beginnings of a sense of cultural identity when the Founders uplifted them, but it was decided that they might pose a threat, or even that it was seen as unnecessary in the role that the Founders had envisioned for them. That's the tragedy of the Vorta. They might have evolved to become anything, but that future was stolen from them by the Dominion. The Founders just saw them as a genetic feedstock and nothing more.

[@katarinaholley2769]

Weyoun was just born this way.

[@Kalenz1234]

Vat grown*

[@ethanrichmond3992]

Weyoun literally has no taste.

[@daiklaive]

but he can enjoy different... textures. lol

[@larrysheets2508]

I hear they're not that bad, with the right gravy.... ;)

[@Freesorin837]

But he has a good... feel for things

[@ParaSpite]

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT UNTIL YOU BITE HIM

[@Smeginator]

He’s also immune to most poisons

[@Tylerpierre99]

Id like to see the original Weyoun. The one the clones are based upon.

[@reason4being]

Ah yes! Weyoun 0...the prototype....uh..he blew up in the lab unfortunately

[@Revkor]

@@reason4being nah got his neck snapped by a warrior race.

[@mreid86]

@@Revkor Is this a reference to Weyoun 7, a personal theory, or canon that I somehow missed out on?

[@Revkor]

@@mreid86 yup

[@jamesanthony5874]

You're assuming there /was/ a Weyoun 0 beyond just the default Vorta template.

[@johnmoldoch3127]

The most well written Drama to ever grace our screens.

[@ZeeZeeBun]

I love these little glimpses into just how unfortunate Weyoun and his people are... And then you're instantly reminded that he's also a moderately sadistic jerk that would have you killed the moment it was deemed necessary.

[@erikshure360]

You'd kill someone too if it was necessary. Like in a self defense situation.

[@ZeeZeeBun]

@@erikshure360 And Weyoun would have someone killed if they said the wrong thing.. Not the same. :P

[@erikshure360]

@@ZeeZeeBun Weyoun didn't kill Kira for insulting his gods... nor did he kill Jake for writing bad press about his ruling so idk.

[@ZeeZeeBun]

@@erikshure360 He has every reason to think twice about killing either of them. The entire reason Jake was even allowed to stay is because Weyoun was trying to prove a point. Were it not for political motivations, neither would likely be alive...

[@erikshure360]

@@ZeeZeeBun idk. Seems like him and the dominion are more interested in maintaining order rather than just blind killing and oppression. If they were so tyrannical there wouldn't be any other life forms in the gamma quadrant -- they'd just exterminate them. He's very different from the cardassians. So yea I don't think he, Weyoun, has much lust for blood and death -- the founders bestowed that trait among the jem'hadar instead. Their roles are rather different.

[@beatrixthegreat1138]

I think the founders didn’t give them a sense of art because art inspires independent thought. The founders would have no use for a servant that thinks for itself.

[@Kalenz1234]

Everything that could serve as a distraction was removed. Vorta can only enjoy things that are directly linked to their jobs as scientists, politicians, diplomats and commanders. They find much enjoyment in intrigues, rhetoric, learning something new and games based on mathematical equations/chances (like Tongo). An understanding of classical arts like music, painting, sculpting etc. wouldn't serve their roles so it was removed. A Vorta would love a good political thriller or mystery novel. If you try to explain to the Vorta that the movie is good because of the good sound direction, camerawork and editing he would look quizzically at you but if you explain how a movie is good because of the intriguing plot, the scheming characters and the realistic portrayal by the actors a Vorta would be right in his element.

[@ziggymcdougal]

I agree Weyoun, Combs never makes mistakes

[@georgeh5075]

He seemed so sad when he said "sometimes I think it would be nice to carry a tune", nice touch.

[@JnEricsonx]

Well, in the Star Trek Online stories, there winds up being hope for the Jem Hadar, maybe something like that can be done for the Vorta.

[@LordMerji]

In his "gods don't make mistakes" bit, you can really hear his Shran voice.

[@AvangionQ]

2:32 "The Dominion takes a dim view of terrorism" ... except when they're the ones causing it. See all the episodes where a changeling infiltrator did damage and caused widespread fear. Reminds me of a George Carlin ten commandments joke: it all depends on who's doing the killing and who's getting killed.

[@gordondavis6168]

Weyoun wants to be more than he is. A classic theme of old Star Trek; self betterment.

[@Lordborg2184]

One art, please

[@Tylerpierre99]

Lmao! I say this all the time. #Zoiberg

[@chickennuggets1990]

69th like

[@droger86]

Weyoun in his diabolical ways he had a way with people who can resist that crafty looking smile he had.

[@nuclearwinter391]

I don't have that gene too. Damn you, founders.

[@edinscot56789]

Weyoun and Data would make a great sitcom

[@Slezaiblin]

Yes!!!

[@lerouxmartin3478]

with B'Elanna and kai Winn sharing an appartement next door. Then you make Rom and Jadzia dropping by from time to time and you have a pretty good Friends revival in space !

[@waveman0]

I always would have loved the writers explore the theistic convictions of the Dominion when put to the test up against say the Prophets or Q

[@kleioslibrary5451]

"Would this be more aesthetically pleasing if it were blue?" I love that line. I has to be the best in the entire season. :-D

[@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus]

The best line in DS9 in my opinion would be one from Garak, like "the truth is just an excuse for a lack of imagination".

[@Hhhhjuyg]

At 1:12, when he said "gods don't make mistakes" he really reminded me of Shran from enterprise

[@slitor]

I would think if they don't have a sense of aestetics they wouldn't have much of in the sense of imagination and thought patterns anyway. Which...for the purpose of the Vorta sounds like a pretty big flaw.

[@RequiemPoete]

Except we see Weyoun has a talent for games, tactics and diplomacy. We see several examples of his cunning. I mean, who would think to drink poison to distract two rivals from their argument to keep it escalating? Weyoun's biggest flaw was his programmed zealotry. There were several times where his suggestion was the best, but he blindly had faith that his Gods, specifically The Female Changling he served under was always right.

[@Kalenz1234]

I don't see how optical aesthetics are related to imagination.

[@yoshiharu2329]

The more I rewatch DS9, the more I feel that the Weyouns got a really shitty deal through out the show. He/they were really trying to make the best of a really bad situation. It's not really his/their fault.

[@vexxama]

“Gods don’t make mistakes” Admits that his species has poor eyesight

[@toomanyaccounts]

if they don't need good eyesight to do their task then gods don't make mistakes.

[@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus]

"God works in mysterious ways." -Every religious person, ever.

[@Kalenz1234]

I reckon that they are near sighted. They can see stuff that is directly in front of them in extreme detail to read the faces of people they are talking to or when looking at maps/screens. So stuff that is further away (like the exploding mines) is very fuzzy or downright invisible to them. Because it's shorter and because he doesn't like to volunteer information he just said Vorta have poor eyesight.

[@LN997-i8x]

You missed the point: he didn't say they couldn't see very well, he said they have no sense of aesthetics. They're different things.

[@KaguroDraven]

@@LN997-i8x He says they can't see very well in a different scene, the one where the minefield is being deactivated.

[@timaahhh]

Gawds don't make mistakes!

[@Evilanious]

Weyoun is always looking for thrills and fun. He gambles, drinks poison, tries to appreciate art. Somewhere beneath the layers of genetic programming and indoctrination is a Burgundian. Someone who enjoys the little things. It adds a lot of dept and tragedy to a character who, on a lesser show, could easily have been as bland as the founders had intended.

[@DanielHodgeVoice]

Squeak at 1:19 always catches me off guard lol

[@SprikSprak]

Nice touch that Weyoun is bending down so close to the painting - it's mentioned in an episode (slightly later I think) that the Vorta were given very poor eyesight but great hearing

[@dianelee7471]

I absolutely loved this show. Still do.

[@nelsonchereta816]

"Gods don't make mistakes!" Kira of course thinks it's ridiculous that Weyoun sees the Founders as gods. Weyoun has the same opinion of the Prophets.

[@francescapaladini5763]

Kira herself will make that comparison in S7EP6

[@Yabuturtle]

Although the prophets kind of are gods, aren't they? Or at least more than the Founders. Only gods I know of that are beyond everyone are the Q.

[@JJMHigner]

One of my favorite bits!

[@kewltony]

Maybe you should talk to Worf again.

[@annehaight9963]

Well Hellooo!

[@joecolman1968]

I think a recurring storyline, just to add a sense of humour to the series, would be Kira making more and more outrageous demands of weyoun and every time he refuses sending Odo to ask the same thing

[@ToonGrin]

"Gods don't make mistakes." My immediate thought was "No Gods. Or Kings. Only Q."

[@tilasole3252]

Kira- Release Rom and I will personally teach you about art. Weyoun- Interesting proposal... I make no promises I can do this. In fact I guarantee I can not. But... I could perhaps delay his execution... keep him alive in prison for the rest of his life... Kira- And I make no promises I can teach you if you can arrange this, but I will do my best... Weyoun- Fair enough... Let me see what I can do... By the way Major... Where would this be most aesthetically pleasing? On the wall over here or other there? Kira- I'll let you know when you let me know about Rom... Weyoun looks pleased and goes back to looking at the picture.

[@mlittle008]

As a constructed being it would be interesting to see Data have a conversation with Weyun

[@dac314]

Major Kira trying to be rude but Weyoun is too polite to notice.

[@kma3647]

He says "I wish I could carry a tune." That's interesting, because that ability ultimately derives from a high level ability to comprehend mathematics and recognize its patterns. Interestingly, the minimalist form of this particular work is highly geometrical as well. For a genetically-designed "perfect" species, this seems almost like an unintended oversight, a failure to appreciate the origins of what we call beauty and why we perceive it to be so. It's an interesting thought amidst a scene that's obviously brilliantly written and acted, as so many others have commented. Good sci-fi makes you think!

[@jwhippet8313]

I never realized how much the music added to this show until watching it again.

[@rasheedqe]

Weyoun is right you can't release a man then execute him. That doesn't make any sense.

[@alessandroarcuri209]

The coordinated turn at 2:51 is the icing on the cake, in this scene.

[@festealth]

In theory she has a voice for Rom's fate. His acts of "terrorism" occurred on station in joint control with Bajor. As such, he should also be judged by Bajoran laws as well

[@richa16x]

Did the founders also code him to look like he's about to cry at any given moment?

[@venkelos6996]

I get that the Vorta see the Founders as "gods" in the same way the Jaffa see the Gao'uld; they have seen amazing technology, "powers", and were even somewhat elevated by the older race, but in Star Trek, specifically, I just chuckle. Weyoun can make a case that Odo, or the other Founders, are "gods", but when he does so ton people who have met the Q, or the Prophets in the Wormhole; advanced, evolved, even ascended beings, beyond corporeality, and linear time, who can literally snap their fingers, and alter reality, it almost seems laughable he thinks they are going to be impressed by his masters, who turn to oatmeal once a day, and who can be killed. I suppose that they are from the Gamma Quadrant, so maybe Daods, the Q, and other cosmics aren't as known there, but you'd think they would learn, eventually.

[@tnerbtnerb5136]

I love that Kira legitamitely acts surprised by this outcome. Lets say during the Occupation some Cardassian Engineer came up with a system that attached cloaked anti personel mines to resistance fighters in the field and detonated once they arrived back at their bases, killing whole cells and families. Would SHE entertain an appeal by the Cardassian Government to release said engineer if they captured him because he had a well connected family? Of course not. She is just a terrible, perpetual hypocrite throughout the series.

[@aguyhere7945]

Remember: It's only bad when the "Other Side" does something wrong. Otherwise whatever bad thing your side did was totally justified and needed.

[@AlexanderTheScourge]

Nietzsche said that what is done in love and war is beyond good and evil. Morality has no place in war. It has no place in the struggle to survive. Both side committed atrocities in the name of survival. It is what you do that defines you as good or evil. Bajor simply took to rebuilding their world and tried to make peace with Cardassia (good). While Cardassia took ever opportunity they could to try and reclaim their lost province (bad)

[@xdarrenx]

Only 1 country who dropped nukes on cities, and also only one country who didn't get reprimanded for it... "it was war", "we didn't know the effects", "it was in the past", wasn't a problem for the Nuremberg trials was it. Now they invade Iraq and threathen N-Korea for even producing them. It's like that guy in a group who has done something wrong, but steps forward first in a pro-active manner to tell they must find the one who did it in a hero like fashion. Basically Gaston from disney's beauty and the beast. That's America vs WMDs.

[@AlexanderTheScourge]

Thelondonbadger Bajor making peace was in the episode where vedek bareli dies. Bajorians took in, fed, cloth, and even adopted cardissan orphans as shown in the episode with the hearing between a Cardassian orphan adopted father vs his biological father. The mixed raced thing is only brought up once and that is Dukat’s daughter. But you have to remember she is the daughter of their oppressors, not some faceless nameless clerk. Honestly, the bajorians never came off as xenophobic. Even after the invasion. Granted there were pockets of Bajor first. But after season two, you don’t get that feel from them. Even with the skin shedding people, they didn’t turn them away out of malice or hatred. They honestly believed their world couldn’t handle so many refugees. And I don’t think the cardissa pulled out because the federation alone. It is hard to wage war and put down large scale slave revolts. Either you are going to focus your attention on one or the other. They chose to focus on war. Fighting on two fronts divides your army and makes prone to make mistakes and errors. (While no real world experience, I have played a shit ton of strategy games. A war on one front and a large scale revolt behind the lines are never a good thing.)

[@Lorgar64]

@@xdarrenx I'm pretty sure they knew the effects, that's why they used them. Because when you have a people so fanatically loyal they will strap explosives to themselves and charge enemy tanks, that's not an enemy that can look around, see it's the last axis power left, and reconsider its campaign of genocide, slavery, and dreams of world conquest. The U.S. had two options, either continue the war, fighting through the islands conventionally with people being slaughtered all the way through, or nuke two cities. Did the U.S. owe the people of Japan, a people who had declared war by launching a surprise attack on Pearl Harbour, owe them the hundreds of thousands of dead it would take instead of declaring, mostly to Russia which at this point had conquered half of Europe and had millions of soldiers stationed on the border, that their guns were the biggest on the block and if you fought them you wouldn't be crossing off armies but cities? And are you seriously criticising America for threatening North Korea when they're testing missiles in other countries airspaces? When they're actually mad enough to do something with their nukes?

[@SuperGwah]

I guess we all wish to be more than what we are, even Weyoun.

[@orionslaver432]

"Brother! I knew you'd come!" "It's a surprise to me..."

[@michaelbond569]

When he said gods don't make mistakes, I heard nothing but commander shran

[@juresaiyan]

Anyone else watching old Trek clips to commemorate how good Trek was once?

[@Kalenz1234]

DS9 was the best

[@Atari-Dude]

I mean, they certainly had their peak. 1989-2005 for sure. But I still enjoy Discovery, Picard season 1, and Lower Decks most of all the new shows. Don't like SNW much at all though...

[@titusmccarthy]

Strange New Worlds isn't bad but it's no DS9.

[@Influx27]

It doesn't speak highly of Kiera that she would be so incredibly ignorant of how the Dominion would react when they learned of what Rom had done

[@saturn580]

Even after all the Founders have taken from the Vorta, there remains a spark of curiosity and longing that could eventually lead to rebellion. The killing/cloning process isn't only about engineering perfect diplomats, it's also a final safeguard against the Vorta evolving into an independent species. A reset switch to keep them ignorant, naive and hopelessly dependant on the Founders forever.

[@Skaitania]

I can't believe no one came up with self replicating weapons before.

[@RequiemPoete]

@Thelondonbadger: Where do you get the material for those mines?

[@dirtbag_8132]

All they had to do was reprogram an industrial replicator

[@RequiemPoete]

@@dirtbag_8132 No. There's a big problem with the replicator. You can't create something from nothing. For every mine that gets replicated into existence, a mine's worth of material has to be dematerialized first. That's how replicators work. When you order a steak or pasta or raw grahk, somewhere in the ship the replicator system dematerializes an organic goo composed of common organic compounds, routes it through a transporter-like system forces it through the proper pattern and rematerializes it in the configuration of what you ordered. So to 'replicate' a new mine, you still need the exact raw materials to build the mine.

[@whompronnie]

@@RequiemPoete I always figured that each mine contained enough ultra dense material and extra non-replicatable 'fuel' to make a few mines. They wouldn't infinitely replicate, but it'd be enough to stop a fairly large invasion through a relatively tiny space (the wormhole opening).

[@SCARRIOR]

@Ronnie @RequiemPoete You are both wrong, replicators in the star trek universe run on energy, its the same with einsteins energy thing theory i forgot all about, as long as you have energy you can convert those electrons into protons and neutrons and since that is what everything is made of. What you are thinking of is the recycling function, basically a replicator can create anything as long as it has an energy feed, but it also comes with a recycle feature, which means anything put into the replicator will be broken down into energy and stored. They don't operate on recycle only. Thats why they can't fabricate dilithium crystals, 1 i assume they are unstable to replicate and toxic, and 2 you can't create energy from nothing, you would be basically turning the energy you get from a dilithium crystal back into another dilithium crystal with excess wastage on heat etc.

[@syruscoy1244]

I wonder if Weyoun could understand art if someone tried to create a theme on the Founders.

[@the3rdid485]

The fact that Rom even survived on his way to a holding cell is kind of a minor miracle. I know they had to do all of this for the plot, but the Dominion never would have allowed any non-dominion members on the station or their ships. Every single previous occupant would have been forcibly removed, Bajor would have been subjugated a thousand times worse than what Cardassia did, and most of the crew would probably just have been executed on day one.

[@CaptUnstoppable]

He right, Gods dont make mistakes, only happy little accidents

[@andewfusthe3rd]

“No, but you might be more aesthetically pleasing if you were black and blue” “I’m afraid I don’t understand” “Good”

[@Renegade2786]

"The Dominion take a dim view of terrorism" Say the guy from a group that is the Star Trek equivalent of the Mysterons.

[@TERMINATIONBLISS08]

Seriously, the Vorta do not get enough credit They were bred as slaves, but unlike slavery as we know it. They were intellectual slaves The Dominion took control of not just their minds, but their souls

[@spikeep6141]

I love the fact that he *needs* to know if Good or Not, because at this point, his Deceitful Diplomacy makes it necessary now for him to know whether any attempts to flatter Dukat by complementing his daughter’s artistic talent are *sincere* or not - *he needs to KNOW* if he is *lying to him* or *not;* and he can’t tell for himself whether he is or not.

[@hawkleytomunculus228]

2:04 tfw the man wanting to execute you respects your talents more than your brother does

[@Cordell-wj7lv]

Trying to find who plays weyon, top acting

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

0:18 Weyoune: *in his mind* maybe it’s the lines...,. Or is it the red splashes? Or maybe the grey....

[@toddkes5890]

He is trying to improve himself. Sounds like a Federation goal

[@niceguy60]

Wait wait, how did the dominion find out that the mine's were Rom ideal

[@dirtbag_8132]

Because, he was caught trying to sabatoge the deflector array. Also, because Odo was "linking" with the female shapeshifter.

[@ryansta]

Such arrogance, he asked a perfectly proper question.

[@suqmadique9762]

i do think it would be more aesthetically pleasing in blue

[@silentmajority8518]

Weyoun: What a nice man.

[@thiagodeandrade7081]

Ron, the diabolical genius?

[@NKP514]

Fuck the Dominion and all that, but on what basis would anyone simply release a saboteur? Kira doesn't even attempt to offer a defense, other than "he's married to a Bajoran citizen" (whoop-de-do).

[@xenofurmi]

You know the notion that Weyoun might want to be more than what his is is probably why he's the direct Aide to the Founder; he's a bit outside of his programing.

[@whiskeyfur]

The fact he lamented about being tone deaf... I think it applied to the conversation as well, especially when he asked if the painting would be better in blue. He completely misread the tone of the conversation.

[@roystonlodge]

For a strategic genius he sure does give up a lot of information about Vorta that could be used against him. Major Kira should have worked to develop a trap for Wahoun that depends on aesthetics somehow.

[@zellieazure4935]

Everyone: This is an amazing scene, all the depth and complexities in just a few lines of dialogue. It's amazing. Me: That painting is garbage, and no making it blue wouldn't help.

[@shabazzed]

it is wild that the major thought theyd release rom

[@robertsilva1016]

They did a crossover a 2-hour special that was Never Aired it was with the original Battlestar Galactica where the original Battlestar Galactica and its Fleet somehow went Through A Ripple in time slash Alternate Reality came with three Days From Deep Space Nine like how Enterprise C came through a Ripple wormhole

[@psychodeath7616]

“Gods don’t make mistakes…” Let me show you the Holy Bible.

[@thewewguy8t88]

i feel like weyoun was quite reasonable in this scene in a way was right as i do think if for example kira was in weyouns position she would do the same. granted she may be more willing to agree to let him go due to the treaty but she would not be okay with it. but she would know there is not much she can do it about. like i feel like the dominion does not view treaties the same way bajor and or the federation view them. to the dominion the treaty is a peice of paper to the federation the treaties are as abousute as well the prime directive is.

[@STNeish]

In a way, I do agree with Weyoun. I mean, it seems unreasonable for Kira to ask for Rom's release when he's committed a crime against the Dominion, which he DID DO. As for the execution... well, she might have been better off trying to argue a different punishment.

[@DuneDemon8]

Oh she missed to say - You would be more esthetically pleasing if you were dead.

[@tilasole3252]

Personally, depending on the relationship, I'd teach him or do my best. At the very least touch on symmetry or lack there of. Shading, realism, etc.

[@jackal59]

The first time I saw this, I was struck by how utterly _alien_ Jeffrey Combs' behavior is when Weyoun is examining the "painting." (And how irritating it was to have this called a "painting" when it's clearly a print or, at best, a pastel.)

[@Resanctify]

It's a painting jackass, no one but pretentious people differentiate them to other non pretentious people. Here are the non-pretentious people differentiations for (still) art: Used Pen&Paper/office supplies or digital tablet = Drawing Used products specifically for illustration and/or expression = Painting Bonus: Burning or scratching images onto a medium = etching/ engraving.

[@venus_envy]

It's a Sumi-reminiscent style painting.

[@BladeOfLight16]

Even if we grant you your chosen definitions, you can't rule out the fact that techniques have almost certainly improved in over 400 years. Their paintings may well just look as clean as our prints do because of how they're made.

[@jpaulc441]

I guess the Vorta didn't design the Dominion's ships. Someone made the decision to make them violet in color and look the way they do.