Loading 18th century civilian smoothbores part 2 shot

[@GRMGR1]

The difference in power when you bumped it up to 100 grains of powder with 2oz of shot was obvious. Your videos are awesome sir.

[@Rumblestrip]

Mike, I've watched this video several times, I'm glad I did. Back in February I ordered a Fusil from TVM, got it about early October. You saved me a whole lot of time. What worked in mine was a square load, but it's bigger then normal. 110 of ffg and 1.5 oz of shot. Leather over powder wad, and I'm using unspun natural wool like tow for over shot was. I have gotten decent coverage over the entire 11x11 target I was using at 35 yards. Haven't tried 40. Might be something to try in your gun. Either way, thank you for this video.

[@jolo4369]

My fusil from tvm should be here Monday or Tuesday

[@sethmullins8346]

I got a .69 caliber 1842 smoothbore musket from Dixie Gunworks to use as a shotgun and I'm going to try Mike's loads myself.

[@mikemessier7977]

Although I am not period correct kind of guy I really enjoy learning how they did things back in the day. Another great history lesson! Thanks Mike

[@hoodoo2001]

Surely you would not have fired this gun in T-shirt, cargo shorts, and sandals... :-)

[@mikemessier7977]

YIKES!! Other than the sandals you nailed it. In my defense the T-shirt I was wearing came from the NRA national firearms museum.

[@hoodoo2001]

mike messier LOL. :-) I was started doing living history again when I started volunteering at a local aviation museum pioneerflightmuseum.org that actually flies the old airplanes and operates the old vehicles and motorycycles--we are constantly restoring and rebuilding but it's great fun. After a while I got more and more of our hardcases to dress "period" at our air fairs, but there are some guys that just can't bring themselves to do but we love them anyways...at least they wear the museum T-shirts. You are forgiven....and there is always hope that you all will get religion.... :-)

[@mikemessier7977]

Several guys I have worked with spent small fortunes on period correct clothes and detail items. Mountain man, WWII GI, Civil war, colonial, renaissance and even a husband & wife with movie quality Klingon outfits. Looks like fun but I have too may expensive hobbies as it is. I am an aircraft guy as well. What aviation museum do you volunteer?

[@hoodoo2001]

mike messier I volunteer at the pioneer flight museum in Kingsbury Texas. It's a hoot. It celebrates the early period of aviation, 1903-1939. Kind of a broad subject, but it makes it fun for living history. I was military for a long time but now I am comic relief as the "Kingsbury Kop" on a faux 1903 Harley Davidson (a motorized bike extensively rebuilt to look like the real thing, except I have "Hardley Davidson" on the fuel tank. Many of our guys do the much cheaper civilian impressions. We have done some videos, the best was "the prisoner escapes" in which the infamous Von Whitaker escapes my hapless custody as a US soldier and flies off in his/our Fokker Triplane. All the footage is real, edited together from a different day we flew our Fokker. Really am pushing to get some go pro footage and stuff for our November 8 air fair.

[@domarinolo6947]

Thank you Mike. Great insight and information. Nothing beats range time and a note book . Always enjoy your work.

[@matthewpering8091]

The greatest thing about muzzleloaders is that we can vary the charge behind our projectiles. I have never hunted with a muzzleloading shotgun, but I have with a rifle. I know your charge can have great effect on where your ball lands. I have a very different load for hunting rabbits at 50 yards, than I do for whitetails at 100 yards. This is part of the beauty of muzzleloading. With or without any choke on a smoothbore, we should expect a sharper pattern with more powder. Competition shooters will agree with this. Keep up the excellent vids, Mike. :)

[@gregggibson3109]

Very through coverage of smoothbore loading in this 2 part series. Thanks for the information!

[@lloydscott295]

I'm only use I am Greenleaf to load my musket that way I'm not a danger to set the woods on fire but my study of different loads you have been really helpful Mike thanks a lot

[@jamesondancy2183]

What diameter should the paper or leather be cut relative to the bore diameter? Same diameter?

[@duelist1954]

Leather needs to be punched out, circular, bore diameter. Paper is a foldeed square, One inch square for 20 Ga, about 1.5 inches square for 12 GA

[@Captain-Electro]

I love that gun! Beautifully built!

[@1717jbs]

Extremely interesting. Thanks for sharing. Looks like a lot of fun!

[@matts.1758]

Outstanding work Mike! Keep em coming!!

[@RobertoDonatti]

One of your best videos,

[@e.kent.d9561]

Yes! I love the stock on that too.

[@robertbrunston5406]

Thank you for the demonstration its good information! I wonder how your loads would pattern on paper!

[@thatsthewayitgoes9]

Thank you Mike

[@lloydscott295]

Mike you really have some funny face expressions when your target isn't right

[@TheMountainman211]

You should do a blunderbuss video!!

[@tiggerr42431]

Good historical science and a good experiment.

[@mtslyh]

And the learning never stops. Your videos are such a great source of information. And despite the slightly longer length of this one, you kept me interested all the way through. As you stated, I had always heard that a square load is best. But the dramatic results of your tests are hard to argue with. You couldn't have made it any easier to see. Great stuff from another great series. Many thanks!

[@kennapier9586]

I have a 1760s - 1770s copy of a french .69 cal. smooth bore. I wish you would do a video on those with ball or shot. Right now I have been using 12 gauge foster slugs. Not accurate at all but fun to shoot 5 gallon water jugs with. I would squirrel hunt with it if I find the right load for shot.

[@G-man45444]

Thanks so much for this video. With my fowler I've been shooting "squared" loads forever and have never been satisfied with patterning and range. I am going out in the morning for rabbit and grouse .....I'm very optimistic that this 100X2oz load will put meat in the pot.

[@warriorways7741]

Did it?

[@G-man45444]

@@warriorways7741 .... I flushed several birds and only the the fleeing butt of a couple rabbits. There's always next season.

[@nakoawarrior3186]

The best way to check a shot gun pattern is on paper,...to see where your shot is hitting. And smooth bores are like a bb gun,......accurate at one distance,.....to go farther add more power,.....or you use Kentucky windage.

[@straightpipec6099]

Nice couple of videos! Good history lesson. Regarding this video, some things are still the same--2 oz of shot is almost always better to hunt with. Especially for waterfowl & turkey. I suspect many back in the 18th century used loads like you were shooting, since it meant the difference between eating or not.

[@greatpapa502]

Durofelt comes in several qualities ... Soft is F-10, Medium is F-5 and Hard F-1. All are wool and 1/4 inch thick. Which felt did you use for the felt wadding?

[@fallenpatriot7917]

I was thinking about trying powder-leather wad-tow-paper wad-shot-paper wad. This would be using the strengths of all three. The leather for a good seal, the tow for a cushion (I'm a believer in cushioning the shot). Then paper to seal the top so the tow will not blow the pattern.

[@johnndavis7647]

Yes, 100 years of paper shotgun shell developement showed that System produced the best patterns. Hard card over powder, cushion wads,shot, thin card over shot. Tamp the powder with the hard card first. Dont tamp the shot.

[@win1885]

Mike, I've enjoyed All of your videos. These two in particular because a lot of folks forget or disregard the importance of the smoothbore in the development of our country. I fell into that category after reading John Brick's The Rifleman. Then I read Kenneth Roberts Northwest Passage and realized that there were more smoothbores around than rifles. I saw fusils on Red Jacket's site that are almost exact copies of the one you used. Which begs the question, What are your thoughts of Will Hayden in light of his daughters accusations?

[@duelist1954]

He's innocent until proven guilty...but, I think he'll be proven guilty....

[@drmaudio]

Do you have a video on the paper cartridges? It would be interesting to see you make and shoot those.

[@timnelson75]

Eight years after this video, and I have a question. Anyway, can you shoot steel shot in the modern fowler reproductions without damaging barrel? My state requires non-lead ammo for all hunting.

[@duelist1954]

Probably not.

[@45calibermedic]

Look into bismuth shot. It is safe for muzzleloader barrels and non-toxic. It's more expensive than lead, of course, but once you pattern it you can write down the your field load and practice at the range with lead. Afterward, you'll save the expensive bismuth for a quick zero/pattern confirmation before hunting and, of course, the game itself.

[@Solemngolem]

Hello Mike, Is there a reason why one wouldn't use a leather wad over the shot, or a felt wad over the shot?

[@billmazzocco5275]

How did you make shot cartridges. Did you include powder in cartridge or just prepackaged the shot?

[@duelist1954]

I do it with powder. I’ll do a video on it this year.

[@Muleeardave]

Hello Mike. This may be a silly question but do you just use regular lead shot in a smoothbore? Or is it different from modern lead shot?

[@duelist1954]

Just regular lead shot

[@Muleeardave]

@@duelist1954 Thank you.

[@Yosemite-George-61]

..what's the diameter of the punched wads? Is there a percentage to go over the diameter of a given bore? Thanks !

[@WhatIsYourMalfunction]

Excellent video. I am saving it for reference. Do you think the small shot gets caught in the flax tow? perhaps the flax over the powder and paper over the shot would work better? Not an experienced BP guy, but wondering...

[@shrugger1]

I'm thinking with the flax wad it's a combination of an uneven contact area and the porousness of the fibers. Allowing higher pressure gas to get around the circumference of the wad. This may very well explain the donut pattern he mentioned.

[@duelist1954]

I don't think the shot gets stuck in the tow,

[@johnndavis7647]

I see that you have read "The Art of Shooting Flying" . an excellent book. What is available as a reprint now is good but it is the 4th edition and it apparently has been heavily edited. I am looking for a first edition and hoping to find one for less than 100 bucks. Thanks for all you do. John Davis jax fl

[@jerrymiller8984]

Very informative video!

[@KhanGirey]

What would be the first step into black powder shooting? Should I go with cap or flint? Pistol or long gun? The most important thing is money, but I want it to be different from all of the modern guns I have.

[@duelist1954]

if money is an issue, good rifles are quite expensive, so I would recommend a good, steel framed 1851 Navy revolver made by Pietta

[@leighrate]

Mike, You showed shot in a twist of paper. What's the pattern like if you used a leather wad with the shot loaded in the paper? I'm sure the old timers used that.

[@duelist1954]

it would shoot like a big ball

[@ericgross6932]

Would a heavy charge of shot like 1.5 oz in a 28 guage be safe to shoot?

[@thomaskwei9119]

In your opinion, Fusil de Chase vs. English or Colonial style fowler, which style do you think is better?

[@duelist1954]

Thomas Kwei In terms of performance, they are equal. It is really a matter of which looks better to your eye, or which one fits your impression better.

[@GaryED44]

Does the black powder hunting time come before modern season or after?

[@duelist1954]

Here, we have muzzleloader seasons both before and after.

[@ryanbaker614]

What kind of paper are the paper wads cut from?

[@twil1818]

Has anyone done load data, and pattern test on swan shot. I know any info would be speculative due to the shot variable. But it might be interesting.

[@RabidMortal1]

Can that paper tube of shot be used in place of the two paper wads? (ie, just ram the whole tube down)

[@duelist1954]

Yes, When I used a Brown Bess with shot, I'd rip that tube in half and ram both pieces down on the shot.

[@shellmaker10]

Another great video. What is your experience in shooting this style of gun. I have read that the pronounced drop in the stock causes it to recoil hard against the cheek.Thanks for any thoughts on this.

[@duelist1954]

I love this gun. accuracte and comfortable to shoot

[@shellmaker10]

duelist1954 Mike, thanks so much for these videos. I can trace my ancestry to the early 1650's in French Canada and have been thinking about getting a Tulle Fusil De Chasse but was wondering about the recoil issue. What a beautiful gun. Thanks again.

[@armchairdisaster905]

Where can I get the cutter for the leather and fiber wads???

[@duelist1954]

Dixie Gun Works

[@nakoawarrior3186]

Using modern wads should improve efficiency too.

[@TheTrinityKid]

You're crazy, Mike (someone had to say it.) Then again, so were Wilbur and Orville Wright.:P On a serious note, for a person who wants a period correct Montana frontiersman's outfit, would a smoothbore flintlock, or a .54 rifled gun (flint or percussion)?

[@jamescarmean2701]

This is the fifth video I have watched tonight (subbed and liked). I am very interested in the Fusil de Chasse 20 gauge. So this set of vids was much fun for me. I love that powder horn. I hope you have some detailed vids on black powder "Accoutrements. I may try my hand at making some powder horns. Do you have any recommendations for horn?"

[@duelist1954]

+James Carmean Go to one of the larger events like a rendezvous or a re-enactment. There will be horn merchants there with raw horns.

[@jamescarmean2701]

duelist1954 thanks I will check it out.

[@dariuswhite23]

+duelist1954 if u use powder ,over powder wad , a lubed cushion wad, shot, then a over shot wad .U will get a way better pattern .Cause the cushion wad acts a shock absorber ,and u won't blow the pattern.

[@lyleinmb464]

That was great. Thanks

[@williamcrawford7982]

Leather over powder check! 👍maybe two ?

[@davidlane2255]

Would it not be a square load for 2 oz. shot be 144 grains of powder? Just a thought.

[@bowlofrice8]

David Lane pretty stout load

[@lawrencesmeen522]

Great video !!!

[@RabidMortal1]

Nice video. In the 18th century was there a "standard" size of shot?

[@duelist1954]

There were various sizes, just like now.

[@Blackbart5118]

Very interesting!

[@Riando4590]

Your French pronounciation is pretty good !

[@burgtaylor3469]

Interesting. It's hard to imagine that the old timers didn't use patched balls much.

[@amunderdog]

I leaned a lot. Thanks

[@ibpn4284]

thank you for the very useful info. I've heard the term "loaded for bear" meant a powder charge and two or more balls. what are your thoughts?

[@duelist1954]

Never hear that.

[@ipodhty]

@@duelist1954 in "the mysterious island " they mention loading 2 balls for dangerous game defences, that book was written much later and is quite fictional but is a interesting source

[@yankeedoodledandeefirecrac7518]

Mike,Can you do a video about how effective pattern recipie you do on a paper pattern for a turkey head on paper? no clay birds but rather patern of hist on a turkey head traget.? Please,.. so we can see the tighness of patterns.

[@MichaelMiller-od6pu]

Next up, the Blunder Bust!

[@KhanGirey]

Also, what do you mean by square load?

[@M29WeaselDriver]

What size shot was used in the 18th century?

[@mikemessier7977]

Do you ever hunt with a flintlock??

[@duelist1954]

sure

[@smackarel7]

Have you ever tried a buck and ball load in any of your guns?

[@dn88s]

To be fair, a modern 20 ga with a cylinder bore is best inside 20-25 yards.

[@ronaldbest1874]

That's effective for a target, but what would such a load do to a bird? Would it make the bird uneatable?

[@olebluedogfl9490]

How about buck and ball how would you load that?

[@duelist1954]

I'll do a video on buck & ball and on buckshot loads, but the short answer is 110 grains of 2Fg, paper wad, 3 ea #2 buckshot topped with a .61 ball.

[@olebluedogfl9490]

duelist1954 Cool Thanks!

[@todaytriper]

Is" wauser" period ?

[@rustyroxy0462]

For us Turkey hunters, you forgot to show the pattern on PAPER!!!! useless to see a clay bird blow up. I need to see the patterns and gaps in patterns for the loads, can you do another video??? Please!

[@duelist1954]

Tania Gilkey I'll try to get that made, probably won't be for a month or two though

[@hoodoo2001]

Thank you for this great and educational video! As always the period clothing really adds to the appreciation of the weapon. And having the wooden fort wall beside you was quite cool.... or is that a privacy fence? Don't want to know...it fit in regardless. :-)

[@saltcreekammo]

Why not try 100 grains of powder and 1 ounce of shot, or 1-1/8, 1-1/4, 1.5 ounces etc... no need to waste shot if you don’t have to.

[@drawlr55]

I like hornets nest for wadding.

[@beverlybrevit4288]

A square load is not as you state, a square load is a shot column length the same as the width (at rest before firing), each gauge has it's own square. Bridges did a test to improve pattern on a fowler and found loading with over powder card then a cushion wad torn into pieces and packed with loading rod, then shot and an over shot card. The torn up cushion wad still acted as a cushion but blew apart on exit and did not blow a hole through the shot column a foot or so ahead of the gun. Your gun may shoot better with 2oz , just as any gun with over two times the standard load. Not really a fair comparison test , I say the paper over powder patch you are using is not holding together and permitting powder and gas to get into the shot column and donuting the shot pattern (gas will want to go through the center, line friction etc), the reason 2oz load is working, apart from just the volume of pellets is the long length of the shot column and set back cause by the 100 grains of powder packing the shot and blocking the gas. The 2oz load is just a hot core load .

[@cephasmartin8593]

I have a .50 caliber rifle. Can I shoot shot out of it without leading the rifling up too much. Be aware that you answer could force me to buy another black powder gun and I would have to justify it with "the Boss" (wink, wink).

[@duelist1954]

Eventually you'll lead it up, but you'll get crappy results from shot anyway because the rifling will blow your pattern.

[@cephasmartin8593]

@@duelist1954 Thank you. My wife won't be happy, but I will be.

[@TheNickathome]

Shooting at clay pigeons does nothing to tell you what your shot pattern is doing. You need to shoot at paper while from a bench rest, then you will clearly see what your pattern is doing.

[@duelist1954]

I actually did all my tests using a pattern board. My companion article in "Muzzleloader" magazine had pictures of them, but breaking clay birds made for a more visually interesting video. However, here's one with a smoothbore patterning on paper kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqm3iXmufN6HppY

[@FatGuyWithAKatana]

i bet trap shooting is an enormous pain in the ass with it.