A Narrative Investigation of Gollum

[@DukeofWhales]

Okay so obviously no one wanted this, but I want this channel to cover more than just the big AAA classics, especially because some of the best stories come from smaller titles/studios. Not in this instance, obviously, but I was just curious about Gollum and didn’t think anyone else was going to make a long-form on it. Assassin’s Creed II is up next, then another smaller title (a good one this time, I promise), then probably the Dragonborn DLC. People keep asking about Morrowind, I am planning to make a critique but I’m trying to get a full playthrough or two in first, so that’s happening in the background. Thank you everyone for watching!

[@DukeofWhales]

Also of course I say “I didn’t think anyone else was going to do this” and then NeverKnowsBest drops a video that covers Gollum right before I finish editing. It’s a good video though, it sounds like he found it more effective than I did: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoqkiqSupMh2jrssi=fRyMclkBmFy67Btd.

[@theragingdemon8507]

That is a lie I want this 😤 in all serious I really enjoy your criticisms of story and overall analysis. It's always a joy to see you upload

[@TheFingerman77]

Another fine addition to your collection. I've really gotten into your videos lately off of the Dawnguard / Firewatch essays and I really love your style of presentation; definitely wasn't expecting another video to come out tonight!

[@metalllich3493]

I asked for this

[@madmorgo6233]

thanks for the link @@DukeofWhales ! I don't get his notifs anymore but I try to follow closely, 😅🤠😎 enjoying your vid very much so far. at 16:00 / 16:19 I had to pause and share this thought; sounds like DID, I've heard this said before about Gollum before methinks

[@madmaster0015]

You truly made the game feel like the Gollum of videogames. Something with potential and had some hope at one point, only to fail at every opportunity and become gross, pitiable, and dies a death few will ever mourn or notice as time marches on.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

That's beautifully put. Funny + tragic.

[@nektarios5291]

That almost makes it sound like it was a brilliant intentional metaphor the developers intended 😂

[@coreyander286]

But did _The Lord of the Rings: Gollum_ unintentionally save the games industry from falling to evil in its death?

[@ajax3310]

It really is a landmark of our time

[@grovetender4713]

@@coreyander286Obviously. Only a game with the unbridled innovation offered by LOTR: Gollum could save the industry from a slow march to mediocrity.

[@GirlGuts.]

I think the worst thing about this game is that by design you have to look at gollum the whole time.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Just imagine what could've been...would you trust them with a "Gollum Sight" feature?

[@KneeCapHill]

Should've been a pov game​@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426

[@ted_the_kazooman]

Playing Gollum while watching the 2 hour Gollum essay while wearing my Gollum pyjamas, in my Gollum bed with the Gollum lamp and the Gollum carpet

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Sweet Gollum dreams!

[@grovetender4713]

What even is a Gollum bed

[@xavierkazoo1619]

Reading a Gollum Comment, while watching a Gollum essay while writing a Gollum fanfic while wearing a Gollum hat while petting my pet Gollum

[@isabellegrimes9366]

It’s Gollumin’ Time!

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@xavierkazoo1619 Pet Gollum?

[@ollie__reid]

really fond of how you use clips for the lego lotr games to illustrate moments that gollum doesnt have footage of

[@coreyander286]

The Ancient Romans had sponges. Infamously, sponges on long sticks, _xylospongium._ So I think more advanced and sea-bordering kingdoms of Middle-earth would have sponges. Gondorians, Mordorians. Or at least the blasphemous high technology of Sauron may have included the sponge among its contraptions and war machines.

[@kwarra-an]

I would argue that even non-"advanced" kingdoms would have sponges. They frequently wash up on seashores, and grow in water that's easiky diveable too. You don't need roman technology to realise a squishy, slightly abrasive yet mostly soft object would be good for washing yourself!

[@kaitlyn1689]

This is a fun comment to come across in the first 5 min of the video. Very excited to see the sponge-chapter

[@fantasywind3923]

Hah :), I don't know about sponges, but they definitely have towels, mats, bathtubs, soap ;). "The travellers hung up their cloaks, and piled their packs on the floor. Merry led them down the passage and threw open a door at the far end. Firelight came out, and a puff of steam. 'A bath!' cried Pippin. 'O blessed Meriadoc!' 'Which order shall we go in?' said Frodo. 'Eldest first, or quickest first? You'll be last either way, Master Peregrin.' 'Trust me to arrange things better than that!' said Merry. 'We can't begin life at Crickhollow with a quarrel over baths. In that room there are three tubs, and a copper full of boiling water. There are also towels, mats and soap. Get inside, and be quick!' Merry and Fatty went into the kitchen on the other side of the passage, and busied themselves with the final preparations for a late supper. Snatches of competing songs came from the bathroom mixed with the sound of splashing and wallowing. The voice of Pippin was suddenly lifted up above the others in one of Bilbo's favourite bath-songs. Sing hey! for the bath at close of day that washes the weary mud away! A loon is he that will not sing: O! Water Hot is a noble thing! O! Sweet is the sound of falling rain, and the brook that leaps from hill to plain; but better than rain or rippling streams is Water Hot that smokes and steams. O! Water cold we may pour at need down a thirsty throat and be glad indeed; but better is Beer, if drink we lack, and Water Hot poured down the back. O! Water is fair that leaps on high in a fountain white beneath the sky; but never did fountain sound so sweet as splashing Hot Water with my feet!"

[@InsufficientGravitas]

@@kwarra-an Even then, a sponge while not something grown in place, would likely be acessable for those further inland willing to pay the right price, even in the likely occurance that they grow somewhere more geographically similar to the mediteranian than say mordor.

[@kwarra-an]

@@InsufficientGravitas good point! "somewhere more geographically similar to the Mediterranean than Mordor" made me laugh

[@witchfynder_finder]

Honestly I genuinely look serious thoughtful analysis of Bad Media. Trying to actually figure out what a work did and was trying to do, the places it might have succeeded and the ways it definitely failed, especially in something extremely messy like this, is one of the best ways to learn how to tell better stories. Bad art is still art and as such it still deserves to be examined in good faith. Also, if I'm being honest, I get so tired of just dunking on bad media just for being bad that seeing a video trying to give the game any sort of actual look is very refreshing.

[@madmorgo6233]

AMEN!

[@fernandopessim]

The channel NeverKnowsBest also said that in one of his videos. Which made me open my eyes to the "worst game everrrr" trope of videos and appreciate those that deviate from it

[@chainswordcs]

yeah, dunking on a game is fun up to a certain point, but dissecting it is often more interesting

[@carmina-solis]

i could not agree more! very well said.

[@TheOnlyLonelyBoy]

It makes you a BETTER person to look at even the truly terrible forms of media like this in a critical, clinical eye. The more you do, the more you start to notice all the little ways you're growing and taking things more objectively and seriously. It's a valuable gift.

[@mollymillions6586]

They harvested and traded sea sponges in medieval europe all the way back to ancient greece and rome, so they make sense in middle earth.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

I can't say anything about the LOTR universe but I just am thanking you in advance for the fun rabbit hole I'm about to fling myself down due to the curiosity compelled by your fact revelation. I vaguely recall them being important in ancient art that was done on walls, like plaster painting + building, in Crete.

[@RyanDB]

In the spirit of being fair to this terrible game: The line about being chained to the orc's neck is there because "a millstone around my neck" is an expression. The old man was correcting him about the expression, not saying they were literally chained together

[@calemr]

To add to this, it helps quickly show that he's more well read than his captors.

[@nokkonokko]

Yeah that criticism just made Duke sound like CinemaSins.

[@KuroeNezumi]

​@@nokkonokkothat would work if only "a millstone around my neck" was more generally known, since CinemaSins seem to be purposefully dull at every chance. i say that being a person who didn't know that was even an expression that existed and might've done the same.

[@FFKonoko]

​​@@KuroeNezumiyeah, it's a very common and well known expression in literature and writing. Sadly many people don't do that after school or aren't native speakers.

[@daxtonperry7208]

Do orcs even know what a metaphor is? It feels out of place.

[@baddragonite]

Idk why but the quote " why are you asking questions, sauron hates questions, F@@k you! Now let me ask you some questions!" Just sounds like a stereotypical Marine Drill Sargent in my head

[@sparksbet]

lmao this comment made me hear it in the voice of the Soldier from TF2...

[@SpaceChase]

“first of all, this is not a joke” unironically answered my primary question immediately

[@GioTheVax]

This game did to me what Hunt Down the Freeman did: started off as this bile fascination, a game so utterly broken and bizarre and half-playable that I couldnt help but fall in love with it, become obsessed with it as it was on release, and then made me curious about the source material on which it was built (Lord of the Rings and Half-Life respectively), so much so that I ended up joining the fandom to this incredibly popular thing 20 years late and in the midst of a relative lull in popularity.

[@Dash123456789Brawl]

Huh, that’s an unusual experience you had… welcome to the fandom!

[@khamulthewack4732]

Welcome to the fandom bud.

[@KantiDono]

I've never played this game, nor am I a LOTR scholar, but here's my speculation after listening to this video: The 'promise' Gollum made to Sauron wasn't that he would recover the ring. Or Gollum might have said that, but Sauron either didn't believe he was capable of doing so, or thought he couldn't be trusted with it. Rather, Sauron only wanted him as bait for the 'trap' that is alluded to later. Sauron knew that others (Gandalf, Aragorn, etc.) were looking for Gollum and wanted to question him. By holding Gollum in the slave pens, it would appear to such an outsider that Gollum was... unguarded. That Gollum wasn't someone Sauron was keeping an eye on- just a mere slave. Sauron was hoping that someone looking for Gollum would come to Moria to get him, and fall into the waiting trap. The 'big twist' of act 2 is that this long-planned trap fails because Gollum unexpectedly escapes on his own, instead of being rescued by someone.

[@EtherBotGames]

i think "this work is very underwhelming, and not good, but lets analyze it anyway and see whats there to see" is legitimately one of the most exciting pitches for a video

[@CH4R10T_TV]

23:34 Loving this video so far, just thought I'd point out that this exchange between the orc and the frail man isn't literal; the orc says the frail man is "a useless millstone chained to [his] foot," and the frail man corrects him: "neck." This is because "a millstone about one's neck" is a common idiom referring to something that drags one down. The orc, being an orc, doesn't understand the saying and so says it incorrectly. The man, being more cultured, corrects him, which the orc takes poorly. It's a brief exchange that is more culture and characterization than a literal question of literal chains tied to literal feet or necks. For as janky as this game is, this moment makes sense. EDIT: 1:09:57 You've brought up the idea the game has assigned some strange motive to the elves a couple times, but is this really so weird? Of all the things you would easily expect from a Gollum game, or a game that features servants of Sauron, negative opinions of the elves, their culture, their objects of worship, etc. would probably be a given. From what we know from dialogue from Gollum and orcs in The Lord of the Rings, the elves are viewed as strange, fierce and weirdly associated with light in a negative contexts. Creatures of darkness probably *would* find that idea intimidating. But even Faramir in the books and Gimli in the films have, at first blush, a misconception about Galadriel, one of the most important elves. Treebeard himself describes the land of Lothlorien as if it were dangerous, and he likely knows everything there is to know about this woods. Alternative perspectives on the elves aren't hard to come by, and the idea that servants of Sauron would view starlight with suspicion makes sense in the canon given that Sauron was a servant of Melkor, enemy of the Valar (including Elbereth, who wove the stars into the sky, which is why stars are one of the symbols of the Valar and of everything good in Middle-Earth) makes quite a bit of sense. It's actually pretty funny to think of Sauron's followers having weird conspiracy theories about why the elves are secretly the real bad guys. EDIT 2: 1:35:57 Actually, and this might genuinely interest you, as I believe in the Appendices of The Lord of the Rings and in writings published elsewhere such as The Silmarillion, the Free Peoples in the North have a real struggle on their hands defending the Lonely Mountain in particular from the forces of Sauron. Legolas actually references this fact when he and Gimli make small talk in Helm's Deep about how they wished they had some elves or dwarves to help with the defense. However, if you *really* want a Lord of the Rings related video game rabbit hole to go down with respect to this idea, you should check out an older title called "The Lord of the Rings: The War in the North." It adapts a few gaps in the story of The Lord of the Rings, just like "The Lord of the Rings: Gollum" does, and came similarly from a small studio that suffered afterwards. But that's another story, for the interested.

[@samkruse3351]

War in the north was a million times more interesting and playable than gollum, one of my favorite LOTR games

[@fantasywind3923]

Even in the books Orcs FEAR Elves, the association with light also makes them terrible to the creatures of darkness: "... its light smote the eyes of the orc like the glitter of cruel stars in the terrible elf-countries, the dream of which was a cold fear to all his kind." Orcs obviously would also have their own superstitions and beliefs about their enemies, including the Elves and Numenoreans: "Gorbag was right, I tell you. There's a great fighter about, one of those bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy tarks. He's coming here, I tell you. You heard the bell. He's got past the Watchers, and that's tark's work." ... "In this jargon tark, 'man of Gondor', was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenorean descent." Return of the King Appendix F I "The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age" Of Other Races In the stories of the First Age it seems that Orcs also had some beliefs about the Valar who they called 'great Enemies' (which is naturaly reversal, the 'gods' the Valar would be Enemies to the servants of Morgoth who himself was the ENEMY for the 'good' free peoples): "But now in the camp beneath the Orcs were roused, both by the storm and by Turin's cry, and discovered that Turin was gone; but no search was made for him, for they were filled with terror by the thunder that came out of the West, believing that it was sent against them by the great Enemies beyond the Sea." War in the northern areas yeah it's described well in the appendices...the battles in Dale and Erebor siege, the battles in Mirkwood and three attacks on Lothlorien from Dol Guldur. Lotr War in the North game is quite fun and it contains some lore connections....indeed while most of the story of that game is invented on the spot, some of the connections to book lore of the lotr story are quite nicely woven....for instance, the protagonists of that game are amongthe scouts send out from Rivendell in the book: "'Yes,' said the wizard. 'Some of the scouts have been sent out already. More will go tomorrow. Elrond is sending Elves, and they will get in touch with the Rangers, and maybe with Thranduil's folk in Mirkwood. And Aragorn has gone with Elrond's sons. We shall have to scour the lands all round for many long leagues before any move is made. So cheer up, Frodo! You will probably make quite a long stay here.'" So the game's protagonists serve this role too :).

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

I sub to you this is so weird to see you in a comment section lol. But no surprise you have good, thorough comments.

[@welshlout3400]

Not too difficult to read the exchange at 23:07 as a metaphor. The discussion about where the orc’s invisible milestone and chain is attached is telling us how the man and the orc differently view their relationship with one other. The orc sees the man as a plain liability to him, hence ‘ankle’. The man interjects with ‘neck’ because he perceives having control over the orc.

[@crusatyr1452]

Swimming with a millstone around one's neck is a saying, but the Orc conflated it with a ball-and-chain (which goes around the ankle). Millstones have a hole in the middle where you could conceivably stick your head, thus carrying it on your shoulders. The Frail Man was just correcting the Orc's mixed metaphor. Fairly certain the saying is in reference to this line (or ones similar) from the bible: "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." -Matthew 18:6

[@DukeofWhales]

Oh whoops, I don’t know how I’ve never heard that expression before!

[@welshlout3400]

@@crusatyr1452 You’re right. I was giving the game too much credit wasn’t I

[@Sanguivore]

Honestly, whether it be true to the dev’s intentions or not, I really like your interpretation!

[@rdc6360]

@@DukeofWhalesnow you know that not every statement is literal, ironic for a “narrative reviewer”.

[@MsTerkup]

On the bird "betraying Gollum" I dunno how intelligent it is, nor am I sure if it's stated but like... Couldn't it just be acting similarly to a homing pigeon who's also imprinted on Gollum? Gollum sends it out, so it returns to the Candle Master, who then follows it back to Gollum?, where it inadvertently alerts the Candle Master as it tries to get Gollum's attention, as it sees Gollum as its parent, and then defends him when threatened. I know giving animals human-like agency happens often in LOTR, but it is an alternate reading to "bird likes gollum, then betrays gollum, then betrays gollum again, then betrays the Candle Master" it would also explain why the bird doesn't just watch and spy from a distance. It's just coming to the person it views as a parent, and to a familiar place where it lived for years, ultimately being an innocent animal.

[@hungryhedgehog4201]

I remember applying for a job for this game when I got out of college lol, years before it even released. Hearing how terrible the working conditions were makes me glad they didnt pick me. What sucks is how this was one of germanies bigger studios, with a history in point and click games, a pretty niche genre. They were even making a new entry for the deponia series but I doubt that will ever come out cause this tanked so bad they closed their entire development branch. This was such an investor project I don't think they have ever made a single 3D game and the first one they are gonna take on is a license game for a massive IP where people have set expectations for trying to make some sort of uncharted stealth game out of Golumn of all characters on a shoestring budget. This feels like the most produced shovelware game out there.

[@fluffynator6222]

They outsourced it, didn't they? I remember reading that they are planning on simply being a publisher.

[@hungryhedgehog4201]

@@fluffynator6222 they were publishing before but they jsut shut down the studio, idk if they are planning on outsourcing their ips in the future but that doesnt really help the people working there.

[@thorekurz9669]

the night of the rabbit and the deponia games were some of the first video games I played. they had so much attention to detail and really fun story telling. it's sad to see the studio that made such great pieces go down the drain creatively but also regarding the working conditions

[@shadowclonier3062]

A mild defense for something you seemed to have misread - Gollum says he *told* him he'd find the precious, but literally no indication that Sauron assented or actually wanted Gollum on the hunt for it - not such a wretched creature. I'd imagine he'd sent Smeagol to the slave camp for losing it/having it for so long without bringing it to him, or some other wicked reason. Smeagol is talking and feeling pitiful for himself, it's not supposed to be informative about Sauron's motives or chosen methods.

[@WobblesandBean]

But then why on earth would he be protected all those years, and what was the "deal"? If Smeagol had already failed, then there's no point in keeping him around. That's just not what happened, the game's narrative makes that clear.

[@sir-dame-sander]

to be fair, I don’t think “kill the bird” necessarily implies that gollum views what he’s about to do as a punishment - I think it’s moreso a self-serving act at the expense of the bird’s life. as long as the bird is alive, there is always the chance that it will try to help him but end up turning him back in. despite being bonded with gollum, it is at the end of the day just an animal, and it it doesn’t understand the nuances of political allegiance - to the bird, mordor isn’t a place of betrayal, it’s its home where it was hatched. of *course* the bird is going to keep reporting back to mordor. the choice to kill it is a bit cruel, yes, but it’s practical, and *that’s* what makes it gollum’s choice, moreso than any possible implication of “revenge”. sméagol lets the bird go knowing full well that it could “betray” his location again, and gollum does what he has to to avoid being caught. I don’t think he takes any pleasure in it either, honestly. the cutscene is distinctly sad. of course whether or not that sadness is successfully conveyed is debatable but that’s sort of besides the point. I wish everything surrounding this scene wasn’t so muddled because I think it’s one of the few in the game that had the definite potential to be actually very good - it just. didn’t end up that way unfortunately

[@harperna3938]

The millstone line is about how the idiomatic millstone is chained around someone's neck, not their foot. I will never play this game, but I assume the Cruel Orc is in some way responsible for the Frail Man and resents him.

[@lukepower117]

I never thought I would have anything to say about the story of Gollum, but I believe the king in the candleman's painting was the frail old man in gollums cell no? Hes the only other king in the story of the game, he has similar features, I don't really know why it would connect like this, but it feels like the only solution with what we have, and it ties up why they bother mentioning him as a king at all, what they're trying to build and set up there?

[@roglach4681]

I feel recognized by the "people who have started their sleep routines" comment. I am currently in the bathroom, about to wash my hands and remove my contact lenses, then I'm going to clean up in the kitchen, make some supper and go to bed, all the while keeping the video in the background. KZbin videos help me sleep. Thank you.

[@Ghi102]

It's too bad, I really wanted to like this game. Gollum is a genuinely interesting protagonist and it's an incredible opportunity to have an unreliable narrator (since, presumably, the games are showing what Gandalf gets from his interrogation of Gollum). I honestly almost feel like creating a video game out of spite to tell a much better story than what was told.

[@corpseinthesky6111]

The discussions about this game kinda mimic the in-universe discussions about Gollum - treated as the worst thing imaginable by most people, with very, very few voices noticing that while it’s not the best, it does have some interesting depth. It’s fitting, really : D

[@nickbooze9766]

The fact that this isn't a bit makes you a GOAT.

[@baddidea4863]

I am now picturing Gollum in a hallmark movie. Incredible work.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

That was a beautifully greasy holiday love montage lol.

[@normalgraham]

This is so nice. I knew Gollum would never receive the degree of care or consideration that would be necessary to produce a quality title. I'm just glad to see someone familiar enough with the character and franchise to perform a proper, respectful post-mortem.

[@Skywolve1998]

NeverKnowsBest's Obsession with Bad games video actually looks at Gollum and some of the story elements, so I'm somewhat intrigued by it. I know at least that the final cutscene he showed and the context he gave it was pretty impactful so I hope there's other redeemable qualities to be found.

[@DukeofWhales]

It’s a great video, though I think the bird moment worked better for him than it does for me. I was shocked when that popped up in my KZbin feed and then even more surprised when he also took a kinder approach to the game. As a creator you assume you’re not going to have an original take on Dark Souls or Batman Arkham at this point, but I thought I could at least have the ‘Gollum has its moments’ spotlight for a few days.

[@LiterallyAWesternHognose]

​@@DukeofWhalesDont aim for originality my friend aim for honesty...so long as your honest about your beliefs and opinions then you have nothing to regret or fear.

[@madmorgo6233]

ohh! I'll be glad to watch that one!

[@Robert-vk7je]

​@@DukeofWhalesDude, I wouldn't have watched your video, if Neverknowsbest hadn't made me interested in the subject. This isn't a fight about spotlight.

[@DukeofWhales]

@Robert-vk7je Agreed, I meant that in a tongue-in-cheek way. I guess I'm technically a KZbinr but I'm not *that* petty and attention-seeking.

[@fionathegayesttiefling9867]

I honestly think they could have done something interesting with Gollum as top dog in prison. The ring *is* power, control, and the ability to avoid consequences. Being just under the leader who isn't even allowed to truly punish him, it could satisfy Gollum in a way that nothing before did.

[@cannedbread1217]

found and binged your channel and im now yearning for more

[@MrSaturn012]

I do think when the Candleman has the line about the elves filling middle-earth with starlight, it doesn't necessarily have to be truthful. I am normally very against "unreliable narrator" arguments in media, but in this case we already strongly suspect the Candleman has been manipulating Gollum. Saying "and these people we don't like? they're YOUR enemies as well!" seems like a no-brainer

[@minerman60101]

15:08 the recent game Slay the Princess handles this sort of thing a lot better. [spoiler warning] It's a visual novel so choicemaking is the sole form of gameplay, and you have various voices in your head embodying various personality traits (e.g. Smitten, Cheated, Opportunist) plus a Stanley Parable esque Narrator, and at various points in the game you can get in arguments with these voices and very occasionally get overruled (e.g. you decide to let the princess go and the Narrator decides no, you are going to stab her in the back). The structure of those arguments is probably better set up for success than your description of Gollum, it would be like if you were playing only as Smeagol and Gollum was pre-scripted.

[@sparksbet]

What baffles me is that prior to this mess, Daedelic was primarily known for its point-and-click adventures (which are quite good!) so the structure of something like Slay the Princess is not only better suited to the type of story they're angling to tell, it would also probably have been a better fit for the existing skills of their dev team.

[@hawkmore]

These videos are strangely hilarious. Your writing is honestly super sharp compared to most of your competition, I have absolutely zero doubt that if you keep this up you'll be one of the biggest video essayers out there, these are a joy to listen to AND to watch

[@dracorex426]

The bird could have been loyal to both Gollum and the Candle Man, and wanted both to live. It would warn the Candle Man because it assumed he just wanted to capture Gollum, but when it saw that the Candle Man intended to kill Gollum its loyalty to Gollum was stronger. Up until that point the bird thought it was possible for both to live.

[@sparksbet]

I think the principle issue with the bird there is in how unclear it ends up being in the execution. They may have been aiming for something like that but it becomes altogether too muddled and hard to understand as a result.

[@gilgeaschwithkerk2344]

Well Gollum wants to hinder Sauron as much as possible so he would never tell them since the second Sauron has the Ring Gollum can never have it back. The true weak point of the one Ring is that it nobody can ever let it go for real. Bilbo wants it even years later. It is the reason it gets destroyed. Evil will always kill itself in the end is one core lesson in lotr.

[@sparksbet]

Gollum doesn't want to hinder Sauron as much as possible -- he wants the Ring. Whether his possession of the Ring helps or hinders Sauron depends heavily on the specific circumstances, and there's no evidence Gollum has much of a preference for one or the other as long as he has the Ring.

[@ncpolley]

FYI, Sponges are a pretty old invention. Just check the wikipedia if you want for more info.

[@theaprilcat]

Great video. But I feel like you're being a bit unfair to the sponge comment - sponges (as in natural sponges) were used as tools at least since Ancient Greece, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched for them to be known in Middle-earth. There is a sea, so there might be some sponges in there.

[@birdlisterine]

Hey man, I'm leaving this comment because I wanna say that I really enjoy your content. I'm only partway through this video but I just want to say all this. I discovered your channel about a month ago and I was drawn in immediately. I think you analyze games in a way that is both though provoking and eloquent. I honestly enjoy all the insight that you've given. I know that you're still starting out but I think that someday you're gonna be really big. I always share your videos with friends because I believe that you deserve a wider audience. I'm excited to hear what you have to say about Gollum and to see what you make next.

[@calypsoa205]

I genuinely cannot stop replaying 31:11 I don't know why but just the way he says "why?" is so fucking funny to me.

[@g4manhere553]

The arc with Mell made me imagine something. What if Gollum befriended someone in an even more similar state to him, someone also obsessed with some kind of artifact or dark magic or what have you? Someone he could find common ground with, and a mirror for his darkness, and an ally of convenience that becomes a friend. What if he managed to flirt with redemption and so did they? What if we made parallels to addiction? What if in the end, his friend relapsed before he did? What if he lost his friend to their curse, their addiction, potentially in a way that saved gollum’s life for maximum parallels?

[@jacobitewiseman3696]

Is it even possible for elves to be blind?

[@jaysanj152]

It's obvious Gollum was a shitty game,there is no doubt but man after watching NeverKnowsBest's Obsession with Bad games video I've started to see things and this game from a different perspective and now i feel absolutely horrible and sad for the poor devs for the treatment they received. They used to be respected and made a some really great games, Some i personally enjoyed i.e the Deponia franchise. and now they became a literal laughing stock on the entire internet and an easy money milker for Content Creators because its really REALLY easy to talk so much crap and make fun about a single shitty game instead of coming up with proper criticisms on real masterpieces. Like criticizing the game is one thing but going so far to make fun of the devs, beating a dead horse and then bullying them on social media which make them the decision to shutting themselves down is a bit too far tbh. I feel like unlike other worst games, Golum is probably the least worst because it felt like it had some passion behind it ? But ultimately the game was already doomed from the start the moment the devs became too ambitious with their project and wanted to make their own AAA game. Hope the devs pulls through this and stick with what they're really good at. Making some good ol fashion point and click adventure games.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Yeah, I was relieved Duke pointed out the marketing as villainous & tried to be charitable to the devs who obv did their best under difficult circumstances.

[@SnakeWasRight]

A note on sponges: they aren't really made or invented. They're sea creatures that we dry out and use as tools. Onviously, there are synthetic sponges, but even today, many are still natural.

[@dextrodemon]

1:00:18 you read 'ceased' (as in stopped) as 'seized' (took) which matter a bit because it's saying he never looked up at trees anymore, only downward, which does imply something about him. not that he's unliked maybe, but that he was attracted to darkness and lowness even before the ring.

[@JLB0880]

I don’t play video games at all, but this has captivated me. The Lego version looks awesome - I had no idea LOTR had been legofied.

[@El_Rey_247]

Bravo. This was a shockingly compelling narrative analysis for a game that I wouldn't say deserved it. That said, this kind of generous take is incredibly refreshing in the conversation surrounding Gollum, and I wouldn't mind seeing more for other properties or media.

[@amsgamingandmusic]

Extreme kudos to you for giving this story a fair shake. I have no stake in this story, so can generally look at it unbiased, and it's interesting hearing a more in depth opinion surrounding this!

[@apollofell3925]

1:12:37 When you go there the trees shout at you, "HAAAAAAYYYY" that's why it's called the Ring of Heys.

[@NecrossVamp]

I genuinely like this game, I know everyone hates it and is a trend to do videos trashing it, but I really liked it despite of experiencing a couple of bugs

[@Huntanor]

Tolkien was talking about romantic mystery. Romantic mystery (as in the romantic literary style not the modern love story usage) is an element of setting, showing the setting contains more depth makes the world feel real, old and lived in. A great example of this in your example of The Count of Monty Cristo is the scenes set in the Roman Colosium. The scenes were placed to evoke how men have lived, loved and hated since the age of rome and make the story seem eternal. Tolken was not talking abot narative mystery, not telling us what is happening and why. That just bad storytelling. Narrative mystery ether needs to be resolved is the story is a mytery at core, or it needs to pertain to things outside the major plot. This story is concealing the motivation of characters we need to know to understand current events from the perspective of characters we share a point of view with. That is almost always just bad writing.

[@masterofsegways4243]

I couldn't agree more, duke. Western gamedevs are always debeautifying sexy characters, like gollum.

[@shark180]

"If in the future there is such a thing as "video games." Don't let anyone make one about Gollum." -J.R.R. Tolken.

[@RobinSpellbinder04]

It’s bizarre that this video exists but I am very much here for it

[@BrainforBrains]

Sponges come from the ocean, they aren't a modern invention. Sea sponges were used for bathing in ancient Greece, so its not really out of place in Middle-Earth

[@allthepeas]

Maybe this didn't need to be made but (from the point of view of a Tolkien nerd) the movies didn't need to be made. Its fantastic that everyone who will never read the books still gets to enjoy one of the greatest stories ever written, not that i'm biased of course. Gollum is obviously a barrel of shite and you have created a glorious piece of media highlighting that, essentially doing for this game what Mr Jackson did for the books. Most excellent.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

My lifelong straw poll to Tolk-heads --- Balrogs: wings or nah?

[@allthepeas]

@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 Haha good poll. I've always read it as wings but not physical. Tolkien first wrote that the Balrogs shadow stretched from wall to wall LIKE two great wings and only after that used definitive phrasing for them. I've always felt that this is another example of ambiguity selling the magic, much like Gandalfs light against the Nazgul (We know later that he's the bearer of Narya but not till the end) or gollums story between books. This was all written more than half a century before Brandon Sanderson blessed the world with his lovely definitions of magic systems.

[@o00nemesis00o]

@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 painted green, with wings stuck on

[@EstrogenLatte]

wow. Definitely not what I expected after the TES videos but considering I’m never going to play this game I’m definitely into this

[@_niconiconii]

this is really interesting, like all your videos!! thank you. i too really enjoy looking at "bad" media in a serious, critical way. like analyzing weird fanfiction, it's lots of fun! keep it up duke!!

[@wtffy]

Some belated commentary because I kinda... Like this game? Or maybe like the idea of it, despite its abject failure to be anything. 1: I had thought the man in the Candle Man's painting was Sefut. Only on account of both the painting and Sefut having a long grey beard. 2: The Candle Man's pre-kill catchphrase "where does the sun go up?" is, of course, answered by saying "East." East is, relative to Gondor, the direction of Mordor. So it may be an oblique reference to the Candle Man's belief in Mordor's supremacy. That's all I got. Great video.

[@aramisjovanayala3014]

Never expected an analysis of this but im all for it anything lord of the rings related is a treat to me

[@patron8597]

*EVERYTHING* about this game is an enigma. Not just why they decided to make this kind of game, for this character and then price it like this, but also why they made it a 3D action adventure game in the first place. The studio Daedelic is known for their amazing 2D point and click adventure games. Games with great characters, engaging story and fun puzzles, but not 3D action. So why now try to make such a game about this with these gameplay mechanics?!

[@Mauricekaip]

Ok… hear me out. The candle master saying “Where does the sun go up?” Might be a reference to how the Elves see the world as flat. And on a flat earth the sun cannot set, it can’t dip behind the disc. Add that to how this human doesn’t understand the elves motivations and the possibility that the frail man was his king, it might show a distorted view of middle earth.

[@Freedom0451]

I've been looking forward to a new upload from you and I have to say, it's not what I was expecting you to cover but I am absolutely okay with that

[@PeachShortcake_]

I check every day for a new upload, guess I showed up at the right time 😅 I absolutely _adore_ everything you put out. You are incredibly talented. Thank you so much for all the hard work you put in for us!

[@IxodesPersulcatus]

Sefut = see foot. The whole game is an excuse to stare at gollum's grotesquely enlarged feet.

[@francreeps4509]

It takes a special kind of astuteness to make such a shitty game sound like a hollow shell that might have had potential. I actually felt bad for Gollum listening to your narration, and that is more than what I can say for whatever the game was doing. Well done, sir

[@BigScrumbo]

As a Xenoblade fan I kept thinking “huh, Gollum/smeagol kiiinda sounds like Riki from Xenoblade 1” It is. Same voice actor as Riki.

[@_notch]

I pulled up this video as background noise for dinner, got entertained by how bad the game seemed and kept listening, then found the video more and more interesting and actually watched the rest of it with my eyes and found the ending quite satisfying. Can't help but feel this fits the experience of playing the game. Nice video :)

[@chickenapplepie3141]

1:16:14 This part took me out. Was not expecting it and choked laughing on my breakfast. I usually just let game video essays run while I do other things, I don't get me wrong I did that with your video too lol But you had me actively listening instead of just letting the words be background noise. I love Tolkien's works and all I've really seen of this game was memes. I appreciate how serious (with points of appreciated levity) of an analysis of the work this is on its own and its place in relation to Tolkien's works. As you said near the end of the video, coming right off playing the game it probably would've been so easy to just make a funny video shitting on the game. It's clearly not a good game, anyone could say that, but real people with real intentions went into its creation and I appreciate your dive into the possible whys. You have a wonderful writing style, it really takes me back to discussing books with friends in university lol! Can't wait to watch all your other videos.

[@thomasmulligan1727]

Just a quick comment, which obviously doesn't detract from the rest of the video: the comment about the millstone around the 23 minute mark is slightly misinterpreted. The common saying is to have a millstone hung around your neck, the King is correcting the orc not because there are actual chains, but because the orc got the saying wrong.

[@arthropodqueen]

the line about elves and starlight is probably either flowery language for "the elves will find out what we're doing," and/or just the character misunderstanding what elves do.

[@Maria_Erias]

Gollum is the modern day version of the old Atari ET: the Extraterrestrial.

[@Moromom22]

This will have more quality put into it more than a single second of this game.

[@blandbara7981]

Literally every single video has this exact same comment.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

@@blandbara7981 Like you're being original calling it out? Man just let someone have their enthusiasm. Their joy costs you nothing.

[@blandbara7981]

@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 it's not really enthusiasm, they just want clicks

[@christiancinnabars1402]

@blandbara7981 Says a lot about the game, doesn't it?

[@genyakozlov1316]

​@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426Idiots being joyful at another's misery make me angry. This game may not be what it needed to be but the studio which made Edna and Harvey deserved better than to sink with it. So yes, their joy causes anguish not only onto me but others as well so excuse me if you shoot back at the idiots feeling it.

[@Gonzakoable]

Have you considered doing narrative critiques of skyrim mods? For example Falskaar, Vigilant, etc.

[@Strix2031]

Tbh Humans have used sponges for like thousands of years idk why it would be weird that sponges existed in TLOR

[@ZteffenTheBatFan]

I appreciate that this video was even attempted. Everyone and everything deserves a shot at redemption, even if it is squandered at any opportunity.

[@Nigel222]

That thing about the unreachable vitas or whatever is actually something I liked a lot about old games in the ps1 and ps2 era. You would see a lot of land and whatnot out of bounds in the distance. Nowadays most big games just let you explore all the map so you see everything up close. It kinda makes things less magically or whatever.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

It's such a sophisticated design tool from level devs + lighting programmers, to guide or lure you without you knowing or feeling it. So good for immersion & it's disappointing to see the backsliding in these aspects as devs play with new engines + ideas. It'll swing towards something else, but it's frustrating for sure when design seemingly goes backwards or less sophisticated.

[@abdalln8554]

An open world and all most games that follow the ubisoft model know how to fill it with is checklists.

[@marlow1586]

my guy john candleman is standing in a position of authority in mordor, openly actively intentionally working for manifestation of pure evil sauron, overseeing the slave pits even, and he's worried that some random elves might find out that he sucks. what a motivation!

[@chikinfingies5370]

I love coming back to listen to you. And re listening to firewatch!

[@DexterJexter11]

I have not played the game. Funnily enough, your analysis and nitpicking shine a light on the great potential in Gollum, which, ultimately, seems to fail because of budgetary constraints. There is great use of the source material here, of literary references, of symbolism, of subtlety so rare in video games. With a much larger budget, this had potential to soar over typical AAA narrative video games. Your video also highlights the pitfalls of video game critique: you latch onto things like the millstone, the sponge, the questions, and take them all literally instead of as either metaphors or symbolism.? The Candle Man says there are 3 ways to silence a question. He does that because he wants to divulge truth out of Gollum. He says fear - suggesting that Gollum might not answer the question out of fear of Sauron. So he says ‘knife’ to threaten him, to say, ‘what is worse, some nebulous fear or actual hurt?’. And finally he says ‘answer’ (had to look for that clip on YT); this is the carrot. First he threatens Gollum, then he leaves him a way out. He is basically saying ‘tell me or I will hurt you’, but in a more subtle way. This scene sets up the Candle Man as someone who is very apt at manipulation. ‘Flooding Middle-earth with starlight… it is again just a vague threat to Gollum - to instill fear in him, just as the Candle Man foreshadowed - it does not need to be true, to be established in the lore. What does Gollum even know of the elves and their motives? You can brainwash him into anything. This is simply an unreliable narrator. I also posit to you that the arc you seem most fond of - the bird with no loyalty - is also the arc of the game and Gollum. It hints at the fact that every one of us has the propensity for good and evil in us, and it’s only the conditions which we find ourselves in that shape us. And that it is hard to discern between the two. This is framed by both the Nazgul and Gandalf questioning Gollum - which from Gollum’s perspective really looks the same - as well as the two imprisonments, one in Mordor, one in Mirkwood. We know who the good guys are of LotR, but to Gollum the elves are as much his oppressors as the orcs were. I got all of this from the snippets you’ve shown in the video. I leave you with this: Why does Gollum need to spend so much time in the mines? Why does Dantes?

[@UnwoundCaesar]

Even tho they don't have much story hope we see a Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War Narrative Investigation from you

[@connerblank5069]

So, the Gollum game is a wretched, grotesque monster of a game, with gangly limbs and bulbous eyes. It is a miserable pile of failures with no redeeming qualities that nobody asked for or wanted, which should have died an ignoble death long ago, but lurches on to spite us all _and_ itself. The few times it flirts with redemption, there is the barest glint of something nobler... but because its pitiful inherent flaws are inescapable truths of its existence, cowardice and a string of self-inflicted defeats snatched from the jaws of victory lead to an insurmountable wall of inevitable failure. I love it when reality accidentally does a poetry.

[@SerKGrimm]

I've been listening to this video in the background and I eventually realised... Gollum sounds more like Dobby.

[@IGoByAlllexia]

This is genuinely such a good video. I was curious about what the actual plot of this game was since the reviews came out and I'm so grateful this video exists.

[@iiropeltonen]

I've listened to this like 20 Times while going to sleep. By far some of The best narrative critique / analysis I've seen.. Please do more deep dives like this ❤

[@Joeofthemasks]

The irises signifying innocence don't really work, Smeagol was never good, just... Less evil. He killed his friend before he got the ring, and it is mentioned he was disliked and a strain on the community before the ring, the ring just gave him power to be worse.

[@BurningSunBloodyMoon]

Thank you for playing this game - and offering a summary and analys- *investigation* of its plot/narrative - so the rest of us don't have to! On the Candle Man's witty murder one liner "Where does the Sun go up?", I don't know if the game elaborates, but I would guess that's intended to refer to the Halls of Mandos, which lie on the western shores of Valinor (the place the elves leave to go to, to the West of Middle Earth). The Sun in the world of the Lord of the Rings first rose in the West, from near the Halls of Mandos. However I believe that was quickly reversed, so the rising and setting of the Sun follows the Earth, with it rising in the East and setting in the West, so the Halls of Mandos are actually near where the Sun goes *down*, not *up*. Still a pretty bad kill-line either way.

[@jasonduhela9597]

What the frick??? Why did your conclusion make me feel THAT emotional? Amazing work

[@sunciy1]

dude you are on a hot streak of banger videos, keep it up

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

They've all been bangers but somehow they STILL get exponentially better. My initial reaction to this dropping was "oh no but I've only watched Duke's Oblivion + Skyrim videos 80x or so I'm not ready yet" but I couldn't resist Gollum's temptations.

[@mr.zeforume]

So incredibly interesting. Would love to see a Baldurs gate, or LOTR extended universe/book analysis. Bg3 is my first attempt at dnd aside from Stranger Things, and I'm not sure if the story is good, but I know I keep playing it. I'm not a goof analyst, but I love hearing others opinions.

[@roberinoframe]

i am genuinely not joking i had severe nightmares about gollum after falling asleep watching this

[@kingofdeath427]

The fact that this is the KZbin channel, I watch when I play mount and Blade Banner, Lord

[@JohnRStrachan]

Good as always, even for a hunk of shit like Gollum. Nice to see a measured, patient, and Tolkien literate approach to a horrible game. I really appreciated the section about the hardworking dev's....just because something is bad or a failure doesn't mean people didn't put their all into it, and it's nice that you brought that up.

[@jonlidell9465]

I always thought Gollum wanted the ring only for himself, not for returning it to Sauron. That's why I thought it made sense for Smeagol to break and give the identity of the new ring barer. It also would fit with Gollum being the one who wanted to kill any spies while hiding in the mountains.

[@ladtheoneandonly4980]

1:10:00 hereabouts, about the whole aragorn and smeagol thing, I wonder if they cut this because they're making a movie out of it (ofc different rights are owned by different people but idk, just a thought)

[@Well_Meaning]

I just want to say that you accidentally lip-synced Gollum for a second at 0:40

[@LukeCharlesdrummer]

Is it bad that I actual got some enjoyment from this game. Great video by the way. Subscribed I have.

[@goosewithagibus]

This is a great topic of video. Excited to see this, cause from what I saw, it seemed like there were some actual cool ideas in there that I would be down to vibe with.

[@Toon_Topaz]

This video actually made me somewhat invested in the story of this game, better than the game itself ever did (the streams I watched legitimately sapped my life force lol, it' so painfully boring). I'm a big fan of pathetic little wretches like Smeagol and a huge LotR fan so it's nice to actually follow the story they were going for lol

[@siremilcrane]

While we don't know exactly where he's from (probably either Umbar or Gondor) the mouth of Sauron is of numenorian descent, and as a famously nautical people the numenorians would likely have knowledge of sponges

[@ElectrifiedBacon]

when i saw the video come up in my feed i literally went "wtf it's already april?" good video