A Narrative Critique of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

[@TheFuronMothership]

The ultimatum Delphine gives you is so unanimously hated, one of the most popular mods for the game exists for the sole purpose of allowing you to tell Delphine to shove it. It was such an especially egregious choice to present, because up until that point Delphine goes on about the Blades serving the dragonborn, but then she's suddenly refusing to serve you unless you (dishonorably I might add) go slay Paarthurnax.

[@neoqwerty]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that's just a line she feeds you. She pays lip service but the ENTIRE QUESTINE is her bossing you. The Greybeards warn you not to trust her, and not just because she's a dragonhunter and a warhawk. The Greybeards may not like the Voice being used to fight, but they recognize you're beyond the rules of men, as the Dragonborn, and you can discuss that with both Arngeir and Paarthurnax on if you want to follow the Way or the Voice or not. Delphine just uses you like her hammer to smack down what she hallucinates as nails. It's not sudden-- you have dialogue options basically from the start to argue with her and she gets snide and full of herself to the point I think I prefer Elenwen to her.

[@SophiaSanders61]

​@@neoqwerty Honestly, I never really considered it quite as deeply as I should have. Delphine does just treat you as her weapon, personal courier and number one goon.

[@HickoryDickory86]

Delphine is simply despicable, and she single-handedly made me despise the Blades. I never play without the Paarthurnax Dilemma mod so I can put that b**ch in her place. What I would rather have, though, is a canonical way to execute her for mutiny against her lord, the Dragonborn. That way, the Dragonborn and Esbern (if he falls in line) can resurrect the Blades properly, without Delphine's disease being ingrained in the new order from its foundation. And let's not forget: Delphine and Esbern only have access to Sky Haven Temple because of you. By all rights, Sky Haven Temple belongs to you, the Dragonborn, not to them.

[@demonninetaledfox]

I can understand her reasoning (not that I agree with it) but it's just so badly written it's hard to tell what she's going for unless you think it through. Delphine wants to argue that Paarthurnax is too dangerous to leave alive. He has already betrayed one person of ultimate power, who is to say hundreds or thousands of years from now Paarthurnax succumbs to his worse nature and becomes a tyrant himself, even on the misguided belief he is helping mortals? Or the argument of how much time and atonement do you need to make to pay back the lives of hundreds of thousands of people you ruthlessly killed? But we don't see the crimes Paarthurnax has committed or what evils he has overcome. We don't get the deeper understand of the tyranical nature of dragons the game hints at--hell, most of the time that tyrannical, violent nature is glorified (see Talos being a dragonborn emperor who committed horrible war crimes, terrible things in his personal life, and killed countless people, along with the last dragonborn being a power fantasy with no real downsides or consequences if you want to be an asshole mass murderer except for guards trying to arrest you). It could have been a good time to question even the existence of the empire itself because it was founded on the very greed and violence that Alduin had given it was done by dragonborns conquering countries near them outside of slave queen Alessia rebelling against the Ayelids, but that would mean the emperor isn't all good and justified and a creative director on the team for Skyrim thought the empire could do no wrong so. The narrative of the main story quest is poorly fleshed out and actively goes against the tone of the gameplay and setting it's in. We are ultra powerful and worthy of respect but no npc respects us. Power must be wielded with care--except there are no consequences if you don't. Dragons are complex, sentient beings with their own thoughts and feelings and culture and morals, except most of the time they are about as intelligent as the random wolves and bears that attack you on the road and you can only actually talk to two dragons in very limited ways at specific times in the story (three with dlc). The Blades are supposed to be secretive and intelligent and Delphine has been evading capture for years but she basically reveals herself to you not knowing if you are allied with the thalmor or not and sends you on a bunch of missions that accomplish nothing for either of you really. The thalmor have no actual stated goals besides hating the empire so they are the bad guys, obviously, because the empire is good... Unless you side with the Stormcloaks because the empire doesn't care about ruthlessly stomping out religious practices and beliefs and enforcing new ones whenever they damn well please for politics. If there was depth to the writing these could be interesting nuances, but there isn't. So instead it's just a bunch of stuff that doesn't go together at all or actively contracts itself.

[@LimitBreakr424]

@@demonninetaledfox #TalosDidNothingWrong

[@XragebootsX]

I think the option to stay in sovengard after defeating Alduin would also play into many stories of a hero going on a journey and never returning, and that the people have to just believe that the Hero accomplished their goal.

[@dumptruck5138]

It would also fit in with every protagonist of the Elder Scrolls disappearing after every game.

[@jeremieh5009]

@@dumptruck5138 yeah, though i did like the aftermath of morrowind where the nerevarine decides to just fuck off and go hunt dragons in the east

[@Amo-v27]

@@jeremieh5009 And the Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath.

[@ProjectRedfoot]

​@@Amo-v27 😮

[@Saber23]

Nah that’s bullshit

[@Gojeto346]

Hadvars line “outta my way” has always stuck with me, there’s something about the delivery that really sells someone seeing someone who they see has betrayed them personally

[@John.McMillan]

It would have been nice to see slightly more of that. They grew up together and were friends until the civil war, it would have been neat for one of them to mention the loss and respect for an old friend when it's clear the other is dead. Or a bit of animosity between their two families similar to the one in whiterun, past great friends separated by a civil war, but some still respectful to others due to their shared past.

[@Saber23]

He’s a fucking hypocrite 😂 Ralof didn’t betray anybody, Hadvar betrayed his country and his own race

[@soulodile2681]

They were roommates.

[@CapnJigglypuff]

By the Nine, they were roommates!

[@oshii3585]

​@@CapnJigglypuffwow that's hilarious. I'm glad I was able to understand that one lol

[@yarro1965]

I genuinely think Skyrims greatest failure is that Bethesda never took the multiple re-releases to restore cut parts of the game. I understand they didn't want to ruin some people's saves....but imagine the hype of "the college of winterhold" update, or the "mystery of the bug jars" update. Either way, thank you for the vid!

[@Mbeluba]

It would have messed with mods and saves if they did it in many releases, but if they made one big improved edition, fixing bugs, adding content, improving ui, deepening the story, it would be great. Even if making Skyrim actually good story and deep game would take way more work than possible.

[@Argacyan]

@@Mbeluba This would've been the place of Special Edition or the Anniversary Edition, instead the most impactful change that those made was upping Skyrim from being a 32bit application in 2011 to becoming a 64bit application in newer versions. That change already meant that many old mods were never updated for those editions, even though this change fixed many problems old Skyrim had from a mod developing angle.

[@Mbeluba]

@@Argacyan Absolutely, they should have fixed all of the problems and deepened the game (not added new content, made the existibg quests more deep)

[@joshalmightyblades]

I agree, and those who don't understand are idiots.

[@balmorrablue3130]

@@Mbelubayep they should release a “master edition” that restores or edits the college and companion quest lines to make them a little more fleshed out and tweak the civil war so we Can actually feel like there’s a war going on

[@bwcbiz]

From my POV, the civil war is the real "fighter's guild" questline, and the companions is the "werewolf" quest line. That makes the shallowness more plausible -- the only purpose of the civil war is to provide you the chance to improve your fighting skills and gain "guild rank" in your chosen side.

[@themudpit621]

Civil war is a side quest, I never even play it.

[@lobselvith8]

The civil war storyline never really incentives you to pick a particular side. As a Dunmer protagonist I sided with the Stormcloaks since the Legion in the Rift will casually bring up contemplating invading Morrowind (which is now sovereign), not to mention the issues mainland Dunmer have with the Empire because of their occupation of the nation until the Oblivion Crisis (re: Dragonborn), but the storyline doesn't do much to try to give you a reason to participate in the struggle.

[@bwcbiz]

@@lobselvith8 Certainly from a gameplay perspective, the two versions of the civil war questline are basically identical. My main point is that one of the worst design decisions in all of Skyrim was to merge the Fighters Guild and Werewolf questlines into a single chain. If you take away the werewolf quests from the Companions, you're basically left with just radiant quests as the true "fighters guild" quests. Ideally there would be a separate "training and command" arc for a true fighters guild progression, but even the current version could have been improved just by having branches where choose sides between Kodlak and the Circle, plus a third way to follow the current middle-of-the-road questline where the circle remains in power, but Kodlak is freed of his curse.

[@matiasarrala3447]

The main attraction in the civil war questline early on is the sheer amount of steel arrows up for grabs

[@raditzhoneyham]

​@@lobselvith8But I can't imagine being a Dunmer in the Stormcloak army either. *They* believe ***NORDS*** are superior to races like Altmer or for that fact any mer at all? How? But joining the Legion.. maybe if I were a member of Hlallu but... Oh wait. None of this really matters. You don't get to really engage in these ideas. I join the Legion to kill Ulfric Stormcloak, because TES Hitler can eat shit and inhabit a glass sword on my wall

[@CPTcast]

"As players, we know that we're gonna be fine" The mod to have Alduin show up late and the attack play out from the perspective of your decapitated head was fun.

[@enemytruck9798]

Name?

[@Saber23]

Who gives a fuck? Literally every game except for a few horror themed games that I’ve played is like that, it doesn’t mean the main quest,one is bad or even “disappointing” it’s just people bitching 10 years after the fact

[@CPTcast]

@@Saber23 You okay, bud? I just said a mod was fun.

[@CPTcast]

@@enemytruck9798 "The Dragonborn Dies" on Nexus

[@enemytruck9798]

@@CPTcast Thanks

[@filipvadas7602]

Honestly, the final scene with Paarthurnax really does encapsulate everything you learn about Dragons in this game when looked from thag perspective. You know that he's a good person or at least he has strives to be, but he himself has admitted that Dragons naturally worship strength above all else, not unlike the Nords they enslaved. Obviously, lorewise, none of the remaining Dragons would dare challenge the Dragonborn with how powerfull they are at the end of the game, but it still forces you to wonder how much you *really* trust Paarthunax now that there is a power vacuum for him to fill. Odahviing sticking around was always weirdly wholesome too tbh. He could have just dipped, but he chose to stick around for whenever you need him in the future

[@EmilyAliceTempest]

I don't think the power vacuum is much of an issue. The power vacuum was the same prior to Alduin's return, and Paarthurnax remained faithful to his ways. Alduin being gone more permanently this time is a bigger power vacuum, but if he really wanted, he would have been getting power throughout Alduin's disappearance before already

[@John.McMillan]

The Dragons will almost definitely begin to submit to you the same way they did Alduin, I always viewed it as "How can man rule Dovah?" for the ones that don't fall in line. But now Paarthurnax is the oldest and probably strongest dragon alive, and my boy Parthy will either be loyal to you or at least not act against you. He wants relative peace and he even says they will eventually bow to the power of his Thuum. But does he ever act against you? Does he ever even mildly change his attitude? No. He still helps you meditate on words and still enjoys speaking with you. Treating you with respect the entire time. I enjoy the idea of Dovahkiin leading man and mer, while Paarthurnax leads the Dovah. A balance to be kept, with it being likely neither is truly subservient to the other. Not entirely.

[@sicksock435446]

@@EmilyAliceTempest What makes you think Alduin is gone permanently? The player never absorbs his soul, it flies off to return to Akatosh (presumably). There's really nothing stopping Akatosh from reincarnating him and destroying the world, except for having decided not to do so yet, which was the whole purpose of the Dragonborn conflict. Akatosh trying to decide if he should hasten the end of the world.

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

​@Exedra9 not really. Parth understood Alduin had not been defeated and just thrown forward in time, bound to emerge from the Throat of the World one day. Furthermore by that point the dragons were scathered and Parth was branded as a traitor who couldn't hope to corral the dragons even if he wanted to, and if anything it'd be the other Alduin top liutenants still around that would seek to destroy him and set themselves up as successors to Alduin, if they actually believed he was dead and couldn't "sense" him anymore across time, that is. Only after Alduin was properly defeated by TLD that the top spot in the (incarnate) dovah hierarchy became vacant and Parth would be able to sell his way as an alternative to Alduin's way of doing things, which had demonstrably being wrong, since he was then gone, while Parth's persisted.

[@coreyklaustermeier5692]

⁠@@EmilyAliceTempestThis is HELLA late, but prior to Alduin’s return there wasn’t really a power vacuum to fill. The blades hunted the dragons to extinction. The only ones left at that point were Party Snax and Alduin who was scattered across time. Alduin came back and started resurrecting dragons and rebuilding the power structure. If Paarthurnax tried to rule without his dragon army he would’ve been killed by the blades long ago. He only survived because he laid low under the Graybeard’s protection. (Just to clarify I’m not saying that Paarthurnax will relapse, I’m just saying we can’t rule it out since he’s never really had the option before)

[@kozhedub]

8:28 I remember when i first heard this dialogue "For the love of Talos, shut up and lets get this over with" i was amazed at the time that a character organically interupted another character 😂😂 i was thinking of the oblivion days with one actor would abruptly stop, there was a delay, and then the interrupting actor would start speaking

[@jasper_the_ghost]

In classic scuffed Bethesda fashion, the priestess keeps talking even while getting interrupted until it’s her turn to speak… BUT it was pretty cool the first time so I think it had the desired effect. lol

[@kozhedub]

@@jasper_the_ghost Didn't age super well 😂

[@LilBouzy]

The mods that improve that dialogue flow even moreso really make the characters feel like people, along with the mods that add more dialogue into the game using the va audio files. … damn maybe I do have to start modding Skyrim again

[@Thunderlord_Tozn]

It’s not 100% consistent throughout the game but yea it was nice to see the delay removed from most of the interruptions in dialogue

[@LilPenith2]

one thing about the Paarthunax dilemma that I think is a big thing is that Delphine tells you really early that the blade's sole purpose was to serve the dragonborn. So when she's saying you are either with us or against she's going against what the blades were founded on.

[@ihaveachihuahau]

It’s just very weird in general. The blades also hadn’t even seen a dragon in like hundreds or thousands of years, so I don’t get where her hatred for paarthurnax comes from. He didn’t do anything while she was around except help.

[@georgemurdock7670]

She also tells you they are dragonkillers, and the dragonborn is the highest dragonkiller. When you don’t kill dragons you aint much of a dragonborn, ergo not worth to serve. Akatosh is the founder of the empire, a dragonborn, one of akatoshs blood, was always emperor. The player character is of the same blood as akatosh, slave king alessia, reman and tiber septim, yet tulius, even tho he serves the empire, the empire that by all right and logic is the player characters empire, wont serve you.

[@gold_leaf0702]

The fact that there's no option to say "I am not of Skyrim nor the Empire, you will make peace or I will be the doom of you both" at the High Hrothgar moot, is such a missed opportunity. Imagine becoming the enemy of both factions.

[@roman8197]

reddit dialogue

[@gold_leaf0702]

@@roman8197 "you're both idiots and I can prove it mathematically"

[@joseph8298]

That’d be cool

[@niquitobonito]

Give skyrim a "yes man" ending. Ally with the dragons, the guilds, and the forsworn to over throw all the corrupt jarls

[@etcetera1995]

I mean, the DB is. One guy. The Empire of Cyrodiil and the Stormcloaks are literal armies. Also one of them is a whole ass *nation.*

[@squishyushi]

15:08 fun fact, the torturer didn’t drop his hood originally, I killed him for it on my first play through and he didn’t drop it and I was so sad, glad they eventually fixed that

[@TheDragonborn97]

They didn't, only in Special Edition and Switch do the hood drop

[@weissendrachen]

​@@TheDragonborn97...

[@serlistogiette4168]

​@@TheDragonborn97Actually it's anniversary edition where it drops.

[@30noir]

@@serlistogiette4168 No, it was changed in the special edition, it just remains the same in the later edition.

[@serlistogiette4168]

@@30noir Actually, it's the anniversary remaster legendary edition

[@adamcummings20]

As someone who owns a "Hey you, you're finally awake" pillowcase, Skyrim has definitely solidified its legacy for decades to come

[@DatcleanMochaJo]

They are funny

[@Matty002]

​@@DatcleanMochaJoyep theres a reason memes are named after genes

[@HerohammerStudios]

That's amazing lol

[@charbway]

I have the intro mug that fades in when it's warm lol

[@dashiellgillingham4579]

I have that on my coffee mug.

[@TonberryQueen]

One thing that some might want to consider as far as deciding Paarthurnax's fate is whether or not the Dragonborn or especially the Blades even have the right to do that. Delphine declares that Paarthurnax has committed crimes against man under Alduin's rule. Even putting aside the facts that Paarthurnax has not only turned away from that dark path, but had decided to help man and because of this man gained their freedom, there is the fact that Neither the Dragonborn nor Delphine really have the right to act as judge, jury and executioner. The ones who actually did have that right were the men of the past, the ones who Paarthurnax committed his crimes against. And they did judge him, and fount him to be redeemed. Even named him ally and friend. Neither the Dragonborn nor Delphine's oldest ancestors were even a thought at that time. So who the hell are Delphine and Esbern to declare the judgment of men in the past to be wrong and decide to execute Paarthurnax themselves? What sort of Pedestal does Delphine really put herself on? The hubris is thick enough to cut with a chainsaw. If I were the Dragonborn, I would have declared that not only would I not kill Paarthurnax, but I would protect him, and no one will even attempt to harm him under pain of death. Delphine got way too big for her britches. Which she may want to rethink, seeing as how she and her comrades were nowhere near powerful enough to prevent the Thalmor from thoroughly kicking their asses.

[@jonaszpawlacz756]

I wouldn't say that the ancient Nords forgave Paarthurnax. Rather, they were hard-pressed and would take all the help they could get. Kinda like WW2, where the Soviets were sometimes even worse than the Nazis, and yet the Allies worked together with them to stop a common enemy. And while you may be right about the Blades having no authority to judge Paarthurnax, the Dragonborn certainly does. After all, who if not the mortal blessed by Akatosh himself with the unique ability to kill dragons permanently? Even the Greybeards recognize this uniqueness, as they wouldn't have the Dragonborn conform to their hermit ways. Of course, I never kill Partysnax, I think he's one of the most likeable characters in Skyrim, together with Tullius and Balgruuf (probably spelled it wrong lol).

[@nathanjones8064]

​@jonaszpawlacz756 You're exactly right! I'd write more but you took the words from my mouth 😁

[@neoqwerty]

You technically have the right to make the call, as a Dov-- Paarthurnax himself explains that it's a Dov's nature to dominate, and it's Complicated but when one Dov defeats another, they don't really "die"-- their souls merge, with the defeated soul relinquishing itself to its greater. (you don't quite understand the dragons, as a mortal, so you need to meditate and focus on specific words to make sense of the dragons' memories and come to understand the meaning of what you're doing with a Shout word. (yes, unlocking shouts with souls is a mechanical stand-in for a whole process of making sense of one dragon's memories) What's way, way fishier is how Delphine acts: she's being your boss. The Blades serve the Dragonborn, and they did that to the point that when the first Blades, who were AKAVIRI IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INVASION OF TAMRIEL, dropped the invading and fell in line with the Dragonborn, who happened to be Emperor. THAT'S the kind of dedication to the Dragonborn's absolute authority that the Tsaesci have, and passed onto their Tamriel descendants. For good and bad, the Blades don't contradict the Dragonborn. The most they do is in Oblivion, where as the Grandmaster, Jauffre advises Martin, but all of THAT happens because Martin has a solid head on his shoulders and is open to advice. Every action of the Blades is supporting Martin, even what would be ill-advised (letting him fight at Bruma's gate, when he's hardly got any training in heavy armor? y i k e s). Contrast that to Delphine refusing to even HEAR the Dragonborn out and using them like a glorified errand boy, like they're a Nerevarine fresh off the Seyda Neen boat and wearing prisoner rags. These guys aren't Blades, they're just dragonhunters who took up the name of the Blades and modeled themselves on the pre-Reman Akaviri era of dragonhunting, and won't honor the main creed of serving the Dragonborn. They're Skyrim's version of New Vegas' Legion: larpers who took up the aesthetic and misunderstood and mangled history to serve their own purposes.

[@user-lg5xu6id5j]

I think parrthumax is also a potential symbol of peace for dragons, like showing that they can live a peaceful life. And I also think it's odd how Delphine isn't worried about the Dragonborn, who is functionally a dragon in a humans body. You have all of the same desire to conquer and rule and if previous games are canon with how they handle the main character then the Dragonborn is also the leader of the dark brother hood and the thieves guild

[@OneManCast]

Nah the hubris is so thicc that nothing short of the sun's heat, can carve through the material.

[@HQ_Default]

I think the question of _"why is there so much violence and killing in The Elder Scrolls if everyone knows the person is going to be reincarnated or rewarded after they die?"_ is actually a lot simpler than you might think. If someone is dead, that means they're not your problem anymore.

[@Itomon]

lol

[@DragonxFlutter]

When you got to the part about the dossiers, I was actually really happy. I was - and continue to be - so frustrated by the lack of care with that addition. In fact, you could even say that all of Skyrim's woes are foreshadowed by, of all things, a miscellaneous quest: the love triangle between Camilla, Faendal, and Sven. You're capable of talking to both men and getting both of their forged letters, but you're forced to chose one to give to Camilla, and can't share the knowledge that neither of them are who they appear to be when in her presence. The game gives you information, sets you up for the obvious big-brain play, and yet falls flat on its face when it comes time to execute. And when it comes to the kinds of games Bethesda makes, I've begun to have one big rule: don't give the player information that's hyper relevant to the main plot of the game if you don't want them to act on it.

[@FreedomIII]

Ironically, it's a romance mod that finally allows you that (logical, compassionate, moral) option to out them both 😅

[@DragonxFlutter]

@@FreedomIII Links, PLEASE. I just found a mod that lets you give a spouse a schedule to keep in whatever town they're in. I will 100% free Camilla from those two bozos.

[@turismofoegaming8806]

Reminds me of parts, where, in oblivion back in the day, and this happens in Skyrim, also, where you would be standing right in front of one character, and they would start talking about another character, who is literally 3 inches away from them, and would’ve heard everything they said….. But didn’t because: Bethesda!

[@timtebow777]

I understand what you're saying but you're using the word "foreshadow" incorrectly. A better word would be "analogous".

[@DragonxFlutter]

@@timtebow777I think "Foreshadow" is a good word for it, considering that Camilla's Love Triangle is one of the first side quests you can encounter and complete, long before the Thalmor Embassy.

[@simonlaurila2702]

One thing that should be mentioned about Ragnarök as a concept is that while it IS the inevitable end of the world, it's not something that is to be accepted and taken lying down. According to the mythology, the Asa-gods are gathering the greatest warriors in Valhall and have them training in what is essentially actual battles every single day in preparation for Ragnarök, and when the day comes, the Gods and their armies of these elite warriors will take to the field and fight to the death to stop the end of the world from coming to pass. This is DESPITE Oden being the wisest of the Asa-gods and literally being able to see the future, he knows the end of the world is coming and still chooses to go out fighting instead of doing what the grey-beards and Parthurnax propose. Although, to be fair to Skyrim, when you get to Sovngarde, the heroes and Shor reflect that spirit a lot better.

[@HQ_Default]

That's actually pretty metal.

[@Aeitha01]

There’s nothing that embodies the spirit of Skyrim more than a rerelease of the original work. Love the video. And keep up the great work this is fastly growing to be one of my favorite video essay channels!

[@KGH3000]

Regarding Ulfric's line about sending Tullius to oblivion, souls can generally go to aetherius, oblivion, the void, or the dreamsleeve. There is debate about whether the void is part of oblivion. Sovngarde is part of aetherius because Shor "was" an aedra. The divines presumably have planes in aetherius. Oblivion is a very general term for the space surrounding mundus and contains the planes of the daedric princes but also many other random planes and pocket dimensions. So Ulfric was kind of using oblivion to refer to hell, in that it implies Tullius is a bad man whose soul a daedric prince might claim or who might have other nefarious reasons for association with oblivion. Note that the priest in the opening sequence says "as we commend your souls to aetherius, blessings of the 8 divines upon you." So clearly aetherius is the default good afterlife in the Imperial cult. (Not just a Nord thing)

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

Evidence points more to Sovngarde being a realm of Oblivion, not Aetherius. It's most likely the eye of the Serpent (constelation), which is noted as NOT being paths to Aetherius like all other stars, but something else entirely and poorly understood. The Serpent is a wondering body in the sky and all other ones like it are either the dead Aedra bound to Mundus (plus possibly Lorkhan) or planes of Oblivion.

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

@ysmirwulfharth4012 shit man, I'd have to dig around for the more specific sources, but in general there's three main points of evidence: in the Lessons, Vivec says the Doom Drum is said to reside within a hidden heaven called the scalled blanket. The Serpent is a constellationof "un-stars" that, unlike all the other ones, can shift through the sky and likely aren't portals into Aetherius like the others (Cosmology book). Lastly, and perhaps most damning of all, you can see the stars and some constellations from whithin Sovngarde, which wouldn't make sense if it was inside Aetherius.

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

@@ysmirwulfharth4012 and? In-universe books are wrong all the time. There's evidence to conclusions different from that one.

[@harperna3938]

The eight divines don't have planes within Aetherius; they're the physical plane(t)s set within the expanse of the Aurbis. They assumed these forms in the Dawn Era to stabilize Mundus by occupying a liminal space between the hub of the Wheel, Nirn, and the rim of the Wheel, Aetherius.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

It's also a common battle cry throughout the series, "Oblivion take you" being a very common iteration, or my personal favorite, the Mythic Dawn shouting "Lord Dagon will welcome your soul in Oblivion!"

[@95fetter]

Just so you know, if you choose certain diologue options, Arngeir will allow you to see Parthunaxx without being convinced by the other greybeard. IIRC, if you tell him that "At least the Blades arent keeping secrets from me" he'll need to be convinced, but if you say "The blades are helping me, but im not their puppet" he doesnt.

[@ashtonpeterson4618]

That's cool. Not sure if I remembered that

[@kravcio]

A couple points about the punishments/afterlife (starts at around 1:53:00). Death penalty isn't meant to inflict suffering upon you. It's meant to rid the world of you. Tullius doesn't care if the Stormcloaks end up in Sovngarde as long as he doesn't need to deal with them here on Nirn. It's irrelevant to his goals. Ulfric telling Tullius that he'll send him to Oblivion is just a rude euphemism for killing him, I wouldn't read too much into it. Another reason for the Dragonborn not to kill Paarthurnax could be more personal and also related to LotR. He has to believe there is redemption for Paarthurnax because he has to believe there is redemption for himself. He is a dragon after all. As you pointed out in the beginning, the Dragonborn solves most problems with violence. Maybe that's because of his nature as a dragon, seeking struggle and seeing strength as the ultimate truth - might makes right. Maybe he doesn't have a past as dark as Paarthurnax but he is just as prone to violence and domination. Oh and Greybeards aren't your typical Nords anymore. Paarthuurnax's struggle against his demons is reflected in their restraint and pacifism. They lost the ideals of courage and valor in the martial, Nord-like sense.

[@DukeofWhales]

Sorry to folks seeing this twice-the first version was age-restricted so I wanted to reupload one with some new footage/blurred footage in spots that hopefully adheres to KZbin guidelines. Also apologies for the discrepancies in narration volume, I was still working out the kinks on a new microphone setup. Thank you for watching!

[@Gonzakoable]

Good luck!

[@chrisrose_krii_lun_aus]

Be better the second time anyway

[@kingdavey90]

I'm still traumatized from seeing the bloody decapitated heads in the first video 😫

[@SnailHatan]

Jesus, age restrictions on Skyrim. KZbin sucks ass for non-established creators. And established creators. And viewers. Sigh

[@SwooshJush83]

Bruh I’ve seen literal porn on KZbin but nah violence is where they draw the line lmao

[@Rajoovi1]

I think the problem with the Stormcloaks was an over-correction based on a perceived favouritism internally. The writers likely wanted the conflict to be murky, unclear and not easily chosen between. This is why the previously squeaky-clean empire from Oblivion is first seen unjustly trying to execute you, like you said, to make them not the de-facto good guys. I feel that they wanted a way to not make the Stormcloaks easily the de-facto good guys either. If we look at facts, people often favour the under-dogs in stories more, regardless of morals, they had a charismatic and impassioned leader in Ulfric Stormcloak, so I think they worried that too many players would default to Stormcloaks being the de-facto good guys. So how did they think to counter-balance the now murderous and oppressive Empire? Racism. I don't think they realised how bad the racism would actually be perceived, especially since in the decade following Skyrim's release it would become a major focus of social and political discourse. This probably ended up in the over-correction that now, most people just assume the Empire to be the de-facto good guys because they're not racist, and, why wouldn't they? I have a sneaking suspicion that they themselves created the inverse of the problem they were trying to solve. Not to mention the Stormcloak's hatred of the dark elves doesn't make a lick of sense lorewise. The Dark Elves are descendant of the light elves that left the summerset isles thousands of years ago for primarily religious differences. The Dark Elves and the Nords should be *allies* by all accounts because they both hate the High Elves' restriction on and disgust of their respective religious practices. The argonian stuff makes even less sense since Black Marsh has never directly attacked skyrim, however it *would* make sense for them to be 2nd class citizens to the DARK ELVES because the Argonians, early in the 200 years inbetween Oblivion and Skyrim, invaded and destroyed massive swathes of Morrowind as revenge for Dark Elf slavery of argonians. Those two have far more legitimate historical basis for race-based hatred of one another, way more than anything either have to do with nords! All of these lore inconsistencies makes me heavily suspect that the racism aspect was just thrown in there as an ill-concieved attempt at making them morally grey.

[@ajsouza3720]

The whole 'muh racist stormcloaks' thing was a really *really* dumb idea. As you said it makes far more sense for the Dunmer and Nords to be allies, uneasy and purely opportunistic allies, but allies non the less. Also for a veteran Elder Scrolls player it was actually a little satisfying seeing the Dunmer who were literal slavers in Morrowind reduced to second class citizens while a High Elf is a respected member of Windhelm's society. The Dunmer were a massively egoistic people due to having the Tribunal and now that they're gone they're being forced to realize that maybe they never really were 'all that' and that the old Empire of Morrowind was purely a result of the Tribunal playing with a god's heart. That could have been a FASCINATING take on it.

[@DatcleanMochaJo]

Interesting takes and analysis on the Stormcloak direction

[@LonelyKnightess]

@@ajsouza3720 The Dunmer aren't universally followers of the Tribunal and the Houses, it's a missed chance to have some old school Dunmer supremacists eating reality, but it's silly to say that it's satisfying seeing Dunmer suffer because people in their homeland are racist. Only a handful of Dunmer in Skyrim outside of the Legion even seem to be from Morrowind.

[@basedchimera5859]

Considering how racists consider themselves it also makes them empathise with the stormcloaks more

[@tripps3631]

Except its canon that the Dunmer and the Nords have been at constant war for centuries, on and off again. When the vast historical record can be traced by multiple rising and falling of different empires and wars for territory and religious strife, it makes sense that both races have a long standing grudge between their own sovereignties. Not that the Gray Quarter has any rational or moral reason to exist as it is, but that's racism for you. Its unjust, unfair, and ultimately just a perpetuation of suffering for no good reason. Just like real life.

[@liamboote225]

One thing I think that Skyrim does is really undersell the true power of the Dragonborn. The Dragonborn's iconic ability is to speak, but in the true language of domination or the voice of the dragons. I think by not allowing to make more choices, or even having more ability to change things through speech really neuters the Dragonborn. The power the game gives you is the true language of domination and the blade while not allowing you to speak in the language of domination in the common tongue. All of the cruelty and violence of Skyrim is the language of violence and domination, but as the Dragonborn the player charecter should be able to understand that more then almost any other because they can speak directly in the language of domination. We should be able to speak to these evils and see how they come from the same evil at the core of what makes dragons dragons. By not allowing this we cant decide to speak in the way of the voice, using our innate understanding of the language of domination to free, protect and save the people of Skyrim from all of the speech in the languages of domination, dragon or mortal. We also cant choose to embrace our dragon nature and speak in the language of domination as domination, and making skyrim our own through our understanding of the language of domination. We lack this central struggle at the core of the Dragonborn, to know fully the language of domination, while being mortal. Both the Empire and the Stormcloaks ultimately want and demand domination. Both will eventually fight the Thalmor for domination. Even if the Empire is more multicultural, they still rule and speak the language of domination, as they assert their right to continue the domination of the past iterations of the Empire that, iirc, was founded by a Dragonborn, a speaker in the langauge of domination. The Stormcloaks are also about domination, both in the racist way but also in their assertion that Ulfric is the rightful dominator of Skyrim. We also oddly lack the potential for a third and fourth choice. We can't take control of Skyrim on our own, as either our own faction or coming to dominate one of the factions through our language of domination in both tongues. We also can't choose to fight the languages of domination that Alduin uses by using our innate understanding of it to subvert it and end the civil war fully. It is just a great let down of what the Dragonborn could have represented in so many ways. A mortal with an innate and divinely gifted understanding of the language of domination and the ability to speak it in it's truest form.

[@DukeofWhales]

I really like that idea! I have no idea how Bethesda could've pulled that off but it would've been fascinating.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

There needs to be a My Dinner With André/Dragonborn mod.

[@riel7387]

Just a small correction. The equivalent of hell is only available if you get sacrificed to a specific deadric prince or if you get soul trapped. You get sent to the soul cairn which is a place where souls slowly get consumed for all eternity. As for places that are similar to hell in TES it's stuff like the Deadlands, Coldharbour, the Scuttling Void and Quagmire and sanguine's realm is misleading as hell it seems like fun because everyone is just partying when you go into it in the quest. But Sanguine's sinister nature is more subtle than the other princes. He will encourage you to engage in fucked up shit so his orgies turning into disturbing shit isn't far fetched.

[@VatanKomurcu]

sanguine is like pan. just don't worship him too hard...

[@sugardunkarton7803]

Sanquine is alot like slaanesh in that way

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

Soul Cairne is only for the souls offered up to the Ideal Masters. If you don't offer anything to them your soul won't end up there. We know this because the IMs are a relatively recent thing in the cosmology and soul trapping was already a thing before them.

[@Notaripoffbruh]

Giggity

[@niquitobonito]

I think when he said there's no hell equivalent is that there's no divine judgement to send your soul to a place you don't want to go just to punish you. Your soul is stolen when it goes to the soul carin. You can only enter daedric realms of the afterlife if you pledge your soul to them. If you're a follower of shor, but shor doesn't like you, he doesn't send you anywhere to be tortured for all of eternity. The worst thing that can happen to a soul is be reincarnated if they didn't gain any god's favor.

[@johnclark222]

I actually really like the quest to kill the first dragon, its such a satisfying fight - and the setting of the tundra (instead of the city) doesn't subtract any of the danger or severity. If the fight was in Whiterun, the threat would've been too serious, too fast; too overwhelming for someone who's been in Skyrim for only about two days. As well as that - I personally always love the part where the guards gossip and chat after seeing you absorb the dragon soul. It makes me feel part of this small party, way more than Delphine and Esbern do. I always try to fight the dragon in pure daylight, because the spectacle of it flying around, roaring and burning the watchtower to the ground is always so surreal - something that ultimately would've been lost had it taken place in the narrow streets of Whiterun.

[@KonoGufo]

I think my only issue with that whole sequence is just the guards saying "I don't remember Tiber Septim fighting any dragons" and "That's because there were no dragons, idiot" since Tiber Septim literally had pet dragons whom he kept in the Empire's arsenal. You even fight one of them in TES Redguard lol.

[@johnclark222]

@@KonoGufo that's probably the product of a couple of retcons

[@randomfactsthatdontmatter3466]

​@@KonoGufoI just take that as the real spread of misinformation. I can only imagine how messy stories must have been in the past, being spread only by word of mouth. It makes sense that people would get details wrong. This is just headcanon tho.

[@johnclark222]

@@randomfactsthatdontmatter3466 true, too true

[@FifinatorKlon]

Wishing for a dragonfight inside a city sounds severely brain damaged. Cool, now two store owners and a quest giver are dead and you wasted twenty minutes until the dragon landed somewhere you could actually hit him! What an awesome experience!

[@WooShell]

When Rikke spoke the "Talos be with you" over the corpse of Ulfric, that was the one and only moment in the game that I felt actual compassion for him. I wish there had been more dialogue between Rikke and Tullius, so he might implicit tension could have been resolved in either of their ways.

[@DarkVideogamer]

20:42 not only is this the only scripted time birds fly out. I had a game load where the bird sound kept looping but it got faster and more high pitched. The closer to the tree, the louder it was and the low poly bird models were stuck in the tree lol

[@AurmazlZudeh]

I got the most awful glitch when a spriggan was close somehow the buzzing leaf animation never left my character and had corrupted previous saves so I had to play like that for many hour, it made archery very difficult and the noise! 😢

[@moonshoes420]

flawless game

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

it just works

[@remote24]

To be honest, the civil war should have been more fleshed out at the thalmore should have had a bigger part and might be even joinable faction, like the silver hand.... Imagine an option to join the thalmor popping up in the embassy quest. Slay the blades, playing imerials and stormcloaks against each other, help ondolemar in markarth, help to get the eye of magnus under their control. So many options....

[@frankbacon1002]

That'd be a perfect pick for an outright evil character but in Skyrim Bethesda was specifically afraid of letting their player be evil. Idk it's smn i appreciate in Morrowind, it actually lets you do whatever. It actually lets you roleplay!!

[@gordongraham2064]

While reflecting on this video, I wondered if there isn't a thematic connection between Arngeir and Paarthurnax's bits about the virtue of letting the old world die and the civil war. The Empire is familiar and ever-present in Elder Scrolls games. Every previous game has centered it's main plot around the defense of the empire as the main plot: defeating the usurper Jagar Tharn, shoring up unrest in Daggerfall, vanquishing Dagoth Ur's challenge to rule of Morrowind, and restoring the boundaries of reality by restoring the lost prince. For a longtime player, the Empire IS the world that they save. Skyrim, though, marks the first time that the player is not an agent of the Emperor as the story begins, giving us a more removed view through which to see a declining empire. As the Greybeards ask of the world, the civil war asks if the Empire is fated to fall, if it would be better to embrace that ending to welcome something new to come. In that context, the stormcloaks are aligned with apocalypse -- appropriate enough, given their thematic resemblance to germanic fascism. We get the same rebuttal to the Stormcloak cause that we do to the Greybeards' fatalism: just because something is weak and maybe even doomed is not cause alone to celebrate its death. If what promises to follow is worse, it falls to us to slow that doom by any means, even if the cause is fruitless.

[@libertyprime7911]

In a time of countries ruled by Kings, evoking fascism is a bit of a stretch.

[@split776]

There's something tragic about the civil war as a conflict over cultural identity. The Nine Divines aren't the Nordic pantheon, it's Imperial, and that makes the banning of Talos even more insulting - a foreign culture has been forced upon the Nords as a people, they found a new figure to identify with, and now centuries later agents of a foreign secret police kidnap and torture smallfolk for holding onto this piece of resonance they feel. This isn't a stance on the civil war factions, it's just... sad.

[@ajsouza3720]

It's because Bethesda totally forgot about the Nords having their own Pantheon and culture.

[@ronnythetoad]

KZbin's age restriction policy is just a joke at this point. Anyways, I don't mind rewatching this masterpiece of a video.

[@Old_Harry7]

To think this channel has only a couple of videos is heartbreaking, you are so talented in this. Keep up the good work.

[@KoopstaKlicca]

On the other hand it means we might be seeing the beginning of a great channel :)

[@duncan4726]

If you return to the throat of the world after you’ve spoken with parthurnaax and odaviing, you see a few dragons sitting on the mountain with parthurnaax. I always took them to be new disciples in his Way of the Voice teachings. I never considered that he might be giving in to his base nature. I still don’t think that he’s falling from the Way of the Voice, but it’s fun and fair to consider.

[@adamcummings20]

Imagine if the first dragon fight, maybe when Mirmulnir reaches 50% hp, beelines to Whiterun, then you enter the city, see all the residents fleeing, panicked voicelines to accompany it, etc.

[@georgemurdock7670]

At this point you don’t have a horse. You would just walk 5 mins there while he burns the city

[@sweven2830]

​@@georgemurdock7670 You could sprint

[@alicemuguet6947]

​@@sweven2830just grind stamina and sprint

[@sidonie6Gamer]

One interesting angle regarding the civil war and a theme that goes through the entire game is the decay of soceity. In general but specificly Nordic society and its culture from what it was depicted and understood in the lore from previous games. The rugged nords, their society and their culture has been homogenized over the centuries under the Empire. Few nords in cities actually feel like nords, they behave domesticated with an entire Imperial culture. An experienced Elder Scrolls player coming into Skyrim will notice the lack of Nordic culture in the civilized parts of the province. It is almost only rag-tag bands of bandits who says and shouts as a traditional nord would referencing Ysmir, Shor and other Nordic deities. Besides Bandits, the Stormcloaks are the only civilized remnants of the more flavourful and unique nord culture. Galmar is a meat head but he wears the most traditional uniqely nord armour in the entire game. Even the entry quest to kill the Ice-Wraith is an ancient Nord initiation rite of manhood to prove bravery according to lore. My view on this is basicly that snuffing out the Stormcloaks which symbolize the last bastion of civilized traditional Nord culture and way of life despite their flaws, is to condemn the entirety of the unique, flavourful traditional Nordic culture to that of savage exiles in form of bandits. And perhaps that is something to think about; that the bandits and maybe some extent Stormcloaks you slaughter without thinking are infact outcasts and misfits in their own land not by their own choice, being disenfranshiched and pushed out of civilized society to commit to war or banditry in their spite for modern Imperial society which traditional Nords feel lost and disconnected from actively decaying Nordic society.

[@DukeofWhales]

I do agree that there’s a really interesting and sympathetic story to tell about the cultural cost of empire, but for me at least Skyrim doesn’t do enough within the game to make me feel like that’s at the heart of the Stormcloak rebellion. Which is a shame because that would’ve been a more interesting and nuanced story than the one I think we get and all it would’ve taken is an extra conversation or two with Ulfric.

[@lobselvith8]

@@DukeofWhales The Nords' original faith being replaced by the Imperial version is something that would've been worth exploring in the storyline, especially with the civil war. It's unfortunate that it's relegated to a single side quest.

[@mariesummers.]

There are so many parts of this game ripe for opportunities, set in a world with such deep and rich lore I'm just sad not one bit of it got thoroughly - or even partially - explored. As much as details are cool, I would have infinitely preferred a smaller pond with more meaningful decorations to the shallow puddle loaded with glitz we received. A tighter story with more fleshed out objectives would have ultimately been more fulfilling than the tons of small side quests and radiant quests that aren't a piece in the main puzzle. As is, we got a puzzle with all the edge pieces and a handful of mid pieces that can't connect to anything, but presumably have other pieces they belong with; pieces which only exist in theory.

[@5PctJuice]

When we talk about the Stormcloaks and whether the Empire could have softened persecution of Talos worship, a line from Alvor early on in the game is very instructive in my opinion. If you ask him about the war he'll bring up the Thalmor being allowed to arrest Talos worshipers, and if you then ask why they have the right to do that, he says, in part: "We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down." So it seems that the Empire didn't really enforce the ban unless it was too obvious and in-the-open. The only reason they're being so thorough about the ban now is precisely because Ulfric started being louder about the injustice. I'm not saying that banning Talos worship was a good thing to begin with (it wasn't, even if the Empire didn't have much of a choice...and given where the Dominion was at the end of the war that actually is something of an "if"), but they clearly weren't trying too hard to enforce it.

[@theentity1839]

I don't know how reliable Alvor is, since Ulfric's agitation about it happened literally 1 year after the War ended. What time did he have where "everyone still had their little shrine to Talos", there was no time period for such a lifestyle to even exist. And the idea that the Thalmor wouldn't eventually learn of the borderline open Talos Worship that was continuing in Skyrim and make a move to enforce it is absurd. Again, only a year after the Great War ended. It was doomed to happen.

[@lobselvith8]

@@theentity1839 True. It's also addressed by the pro-Legion Jarl of the Reach that the only reason Ulfric rebelled is because the Empire offered Ulfric and a Nord militia the freedom to worship Talos if they reclaimed the Reach, and after that happened the Thalmor found out and the Empire went back on the deal. It contradicts the Imperial "Bear of Markarth" book that is simply propaganda.

[@georgemurdock7670]

But you are saying ulfric is to blame for the extend of religious persecution he faced instead of the religious persecuters aka thalmor/empire? Your logic is very good. Really the holocaust was the jews fault, why didn’t they just convert and only worshiped there faith and traditions in secret after Martin Luther told them to do so then the nazis wouldn’t had cracked down on them 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@egoalter1276]

The empire surrendered as the legions in Hammerfell just started to drive back the aldmeri, and would indeed, eventually even without cyrodiilic assistance succeed in doing so. Skyrim and morrowind have not yet even mobilized for the war, and were largely untouched. Ead surrendered right as it was beginnimg to win, amd the redguards and dark elves rightly recognized this and fucked off from the sinking ship. Skyrim was unlucky enough to have a dickless coward for a high king, and was stuck with the imperial suicide pact just long enough to prevent smooth secession.

[@HughJanusDaHorseshoeCrab]

There's a pretty big hole in your "death and POWs" section in that almost any living character in the elder scrolls doesn't know what happens after you die

[@brittoncaldwell2090]

I hate Delphine with a burning passion. In my opinion she needs to be cast out of the Blades. If I’m not mistaken she herself tells you, the Dragonborn that the Blades are meant to follow the Dragonborn. That tells me that as the Dragonborn, you are supposed to be the leader of the Blades and she is supposed to take orders from you, but she goes against her role by giving you the ultimatum.

[@woohoomusic5098]

​@NeoVandole just like being the General of the Minutemen in FO4, but it's Preston who gives you orders, Preston who decides what to do next, and Preston alone who kicks you out of the Minutemen if you become the overboss of Nuka World

[@wesss9353]

​@@woohoomusic5098you are still General, but Preston is mad at you

[@dingledongus]

@@wesss9353 this is worse honestly

[@wesss9353]

@@dingledongus I have a mod. I have no idea what prison, Preston Garvey is in, probably DC jail

[@minermortal1997]

I’ll always had the belief that the Civil War and Blades vs Thalmor plots should have been tied up in an epilogue DLC (rather than Dawnguard) where you as “The Last Dragonborn, slayer of Alduin “ basically have to decide the future of Tamriel. Then we could have experienced Delphine grovelling back to us to help unravel a Thalmor plot of some descriptions… (set in Solstheim maybe, I’d span Dragonborn across both lands)

[@egoalter1276]

I mean, the player is the rightful emperor, by virtue of being Akatosh's chosen. The game never did adress that.

[@johannesseyfried7933]

​@@egoalter1276I am not sure if the Empire would accept you quite so easily.

[@egoalter1276]

@@johannesseyfried7933 The empire would have no ability to resist a bid for the throne by a dragonborne warrior backed by whichever side won in the Skyrim civil war. Skyrim and High rock are practically all thats left of the Empire.

[@CH4R10T_TV]

2:32:07 Something that's missing here, I think, is also something you bring up near the beginning of the essay: Beowulf. In medieval English literature from that period, the idea of the king who represents himself and his people on the battlefield is a romanticized and key idea. It's why Beowulf *has* to stand against the dragon, and similarly why when Tolkien was writing the texts that would help lay the foundations for modern fantasy literature he had figures like Aragorn and Theoden fight on the battle. The depiction of Theoden on the Pelennor fields in particular springs to mind. "Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like and image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City." (The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, Book Five, Chapter V) I think, and I respect your views on the Stormcloaks and the Empire as they're well-reasoned and common enough that the sentiment from the playerbase can't be coming from nowhere even if I disagree, that what's missing here is the incorporation of the two ideas you brought forward. Ulfric believes he has the right to kingship over Torygg because that right is in part in some medieval European cultures literally conferred, at least in the fantastical settings of literature like Beowulf and similar texts, by bravery, by representing oneself and one's people on the battlefield. That deep cultural belief probably isn't something that a Persuade check with 100 Speech is going to challenge. Similarly, if you couch your critiques of the Stormcloaks in medieval literature, drawing comparisons about modern state apparatuses as opposed to the historical conditions of feudalism might be a limited framework. On that note, on the subject of the Stormcloaks being white supremacist at an allegorical level, it's completely acceptable, I think, to take that reading based on the combination of Norse aesthetics and nationalist racial animus. One of the difficulties of that parallel, however, is the fact that unlike white supremacists or neo-Nazis (or the historical Nazis, who used similar racial nationalism and appropriated aesthetics), the Nords and by extension Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are moreso the victims of a crime related to genocide, rather than its perpetrators. Granted, Rikke does seem to imply in her dialogue that Ulfric would remove non-Nords from Skyrim, and the segregation in Windhelm does lend itself to at best a kind of casual racial supremacism, but the Empire is at present partnering with the Thalmor to cleanse Skyrim of Talos worship. Cultural genocide, as real history has shown, is not a victimless crime easily reversed, nor is the hesitancy of the Empire on the basis of a burgeoning Second Great War really a strong moral excuse for the fact that the Empire is effectively aiding the Thalmor in perpetrating it. The Civil War questline in Skyrim isn't just a racist nationalist struggle for independence against a cosmopolitan empire, and it can't be fully seen in that limited way (in my opinion) because those racist nationalists are fronting their right to national liberation and that cosmopolitan empire is aiding in perpetrating a genocide. I think we can move towards an understanding of pro-Empire and pro-Stormcloak players equally these days if we try to contextualize these points of views in terms of their status as problematic natlib and complicit for-the-greater-good imperialist powers engaged in a very human struggle. There's a dozen things about the questline that could be improved, from how the player uses gameplay mechanics to interact (you aren't wrong to bring up dialogue options, this would be a good place for a different kind of Speech perk to have a real role) to how the Civil War is interwoven with the rest of the story (trading territories is good, and I think Markarth has a trade route to Stormcloak territory through Falkreath whereas Morthal and Dragon's Bridge stand between the Reach and Solitude, but more depth in negotiation would be nice), but I do think the two sides are well-matched on moral and political grounds. It's only a shame it doesn't all come through for the players. It could have been delivered better.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

I sub to you! Sighted in the wild!

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Your thoughtful comments make me wonder if testers now need to think about incorporating story/character evaluations from a video game equivalent of a fact-checker/sensitivity reader type of perspective. They need better story + continuity supervisors too.

[@Kevinism]

Welp, time to rewatch

[@___.51]

The last time I completed Skyrim’s main quest I was 14 years old and the “Legendary Edition” had just come out a week prior. Watching your video inspired me to go back and play the main quest again. I’m writing this immediately after finishing the Horn of Jürgen Windcaller, and I just can’t bring myself to step into Delphine’s secret basement. I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I felt the feeling of momentum you described, despite the cracks already forming and despite knowing what was to come. Luckily, Delphine gives us the horn before summoning us through that false panel in the wall. With my objective in hand, I’m going to return to high hrothgar, complete my unrelenting force training, and maybe wander the world for a little bit. It’s been almost nine years since I’ve explored Skyrim with active dragon attacks, and the ability to use shouts. It almost feels like a different game! 👋

[@Soapy-chan]

realising that people play the game when the rerelease comes out and they're not even adults yet makes me feel a million years old

[@N0Name0K]

Enjoying the video. Alvor is Hadvar's uncle, and Ranmir is arguing with his sister, not wife. The stuff about Beowulf was really interesting and makes me want to look into it more. I heard a Muslim scholar once call it a Poem of Tawhid.

[@servus_incognitus]

What scholar said that? That's actually very very interesting from a traditionalist perspective.

[@N0Name0K]

@@servus_incognitus Shaykh Ibrahim Osi-Efa. If you google his name and Beowulf hopefully the clip will come up. Even though it wasn’t put into written form until the 9th century I believe, if it came from an oral tradition pre 7th century, there could be something interesting to it, but not if it was post.

[@isaachester8475]

Kyne: Gave the humans Thu’um to violently overthrow the dragons Ysgramor, the Tongues: in Sovngarde Sovngarde: a place for warriors who died in battle Basically the entire Nordic Pantheon: warrior gods Paarthurnax: “There is no difference between combat and debate for a dragon.” Akatosh: Helped the Alessian rebellion, sent the Dragonborn to slay dragons and eat their souls The shouts: disarm enemy, lower enemy’s armor rating, burn enemy, freeze enemy, make your attacks stronger, _attack your enemy’s soul_ The Greybeards: “No! The Thu’um is for peaceful worship of the gods, who want peace! They are peaceful gods who want man to be peaceful and not fight!”

[@rennyforyourthoughts8023]

Interesting how different we experienced the ending with Paarthanax. I always found it kind of beautiful, the dragons flying around seem majestic. Not long ago they were a dead race and now with Parth’s guidance they have a second chance. The Dragonborn has righted a historic wrong.

[@knavenformed9436]

While majestic you'd be naive to let only the visuals tell a truth. The whole game tells you the importance of voice and words, and in the case of Paarthunax it's not a pretty picture. He's next in line for the role of World Eater and his name is a prophecy for becoming "Overlord, Ambituous and Cruel" There is a great chance of him succumbing to his nature, devouring the world and creating the second one.

[@jacobodom8401]

@@knavenformed9436 well no, because whatever happens in Skyrim - your choices will be moot because something else will happen between 5 & 6 which makes your choices irrelevant. Paarthurnax will be dead by the time of TES6, whether it’s by our hand or someone else’s will be a mystery. It’s the same case with the Emperor and Dark Brotherhood. This is not a BioWare title where your choices carry over. Your decisions have immediate consequences, but not long term ones. Only thing that matters in the long term is that you killed Alduin, Harkon, and Miraak.

[@ellaprospero]

This video has really quickly become one of my favourite videos to listen to while building big projects in sims and subnautica, and the entire video was super informative and interesting to listen to :] It gives me something to switch back to when I need a break, and really brought back a lot of the love I had for the actual main storyline of skyrim (which I haven't replayed in full in *ages*!). At the start of my playthroughs, I never paid much mind to the intro, and usually just did something else while I let it run, but hearing every little detail about foreshadowing, any subtext, etc. inspired me to pay much much much more attention next time I make a new character. Unfortunately, my game completely breaks if I have any save post civil war I can load (at least for the stormcloaks, since I haven't completed the imperial side because of the glitch :[ ), so it's been a while since I've completed the civil war questline, but the in-depth analysis of either side continues to inspire me to go through the quests again. Also, it never actually occurred to me how much better the game would be if the dragonborn could do more for the world without killing everything (especially about bringing the thalmor evidence to Ulfric!!), and even though I flesh out all my dragonborns on my own, if we could establish their personality more through dialouge and conversation, skyrim would go from an already incredible game, to something even greater. I rambled on for quite a bit - but I wanted to try and leave something nice under the video :] (also to increase the comment number (it's at 27 at the moment), it really sucks how weird youtube is with censorship!! :[ ) Anyways, this video is a solid 15/10, and I'm glad it showed up in my reccommendations a week or so ago :D

[@DukeofWhales]

Thank you so much! Subnautica is so good!

[@ailius1520]

2:14:37 Rolf Stone-Fist isn't that bad. He's just a man who likes brawling. He resorts to racial insults because he thinks that's the easiest way to provoke a fist fight. The only tragedy here is the Dark Elves come from Morrowind where their laws are: "If you engage in physical violence because somebody taunted you, they are innocent and you are guilty." In Nord culture, if somebody is asking to be punched, it's legal so long as neither side uses a weapon or magic. So the Dunmer are terrified to punch his face in because in their culture they would have the Law come down on them. Meanwhile Rolf just wants to get punched.

[@YoRHautomaton2]

It's ok guys he's not actually racist he's just pretending to be racist so someone will assault him

[@ollikoskiniemi6221]

​@@YoRHautomaton2based?

[@catpurrito5586]

bruh lets call a guy a crack er cause you wanna fight him

[@catpurrito5586]

bruh lets call a guy a crac ker cause you wanna fight

[@catpurrito5586]

he still talk about dark elves like that even when its not directed at them, this is just an excuse

[@emilybroderick2421]

As both you and I have said, Skyrim is as wide as an ocean and as deep as a puddle. There are many benefits to that kind of narrative, but the flaws are always going to be outweigh them

[@leam1978]

agreed, and honestly, a way to beat the main story without the blades would have been a suitable band-aid for most of the problems here.

[@joe19912]

The problem with so many games, and I've always thought could be solved with episodic stories added. They create these big beautiful worlds, then abandon them.

[@Grandmaster_Dragonborn]

Can you elaborate? I hear it a lot but have never been convinced about it besides the lack of traditional RPG choices.

[@ZorotheGallade]

One of my ideas on how Skyrim's concept would have been much better was to lean entirely on the dragon tongue angle. Skyrim lore will tell you that speaking in the dragon tongue means wielding the pure concept of the words spoken, and that fights between dragons are essentially debates. But in practice, the Dragonborn doesn't understand a lick of dragon speech, so the dragons have to constantly speak to them in the common tongue. All they use the dragon tongue for is to just use shouts to attack enemies or give themselves an advantage, mostly in combat. What if instead the Dragonborn started out by not knowing any word in the Dragon Tongue, but could learn more of that vocabulary as they encounter Word Walls, speak with characters that know snippets of the tongue, like the elders at the College of Winterhold, the Greybeards, or even roaming dragons? What if when fighting dragons, they used shouts that try to hurt you by hitting you with a word of power, and you could counteract that by using a shout that contradicts that word? Like Monkey Island's insult swordfighting, but with a fast, real time pace. And again, what if eventually knowing enough of the Dragon Tongue unlocked interactions with NPCs? What if the Greybeards refused to give you aid or recognize you as the Dragonborn until you have enough mastery of the language to have a proper conversation with them? What if the subtitles of dragon's dialogue and taunts translated automatically from Dragon to the common language if you know the corresponding words? What if dragons praised you and conceded the fight if you manage to beat them solely through the use of the Voice, and offered to teach you more powerful or rarer words as a prize that you wouldn't get if you merely killed them? What if using dragon souls was optional, and instead let you unlock words of power in a quicker fashion? Wouldn't it be immersive to be given a choice between proving your superiority to dragons by using their traditional way of settling debates, or ignoring that entirely and going with the Blades way of just slaying them and only using the Voice to complement your slaughter? Perhaps if you've been following the Way of the Voice, Odahviing defects in your favor on his own accord, recognizing your authority and sparing you from having to trap him in a more violent and "dishonorable" way. And if you instead take the dragonslayer's way with the Blades, dragons don't engage with you voluntarily and only fight you in self-defense, as it's become common knowledge for them that you're a bloodthirsty Dragonborn out to butcher every dragon that stands in his way. I'm just a rando spitballing ideas on a comment section, and I can think of such things when an entire writing team couldn't?

[@malditamente6713]

It is not that they couldn't think cool ideas, they had neither the time nor money to allocate into polishing those ideas into the final product, so they didn't. It happens a lot, not only in gamedev but in any project ever made.

[@nemesisundead83]

"Forget the list." Main reason I forgot about the Legion 😕

[@lobselvith8]

You can return the favor to that Captain if you leave with Ralof.

[@biske85]

The thing about Dragonrend, though, is that it's profane for dragons, because they're immortal. The concept of being finite, fearing death, and being temporary is already a part of mortals. It's not useful against dragons because it's evil power, it's because the concept of mortality and finality is anathema to dragons. Their brains can't even contend with the concept, so it weakens them and brings them down. You basically give them concentrated super depression. As to why it was considered so evil in the past, you have to consider Skyrim, at the time the shout was created, was ruled by a dragon-worshipping cult and dragons themselves. As for why the Greybeards think it's evil, it's a shout that serves only one purpose. To kill dragons. It's a gun, and they're pacifists whose leader is the thing that shout was made to kill. On top of that, they see the voice as a gift from the gods, to be used responsibly, and only for good and meditation, not warfare.

[@biske85]

@@JustinQuinn623 the Greybeards don't see it that way. If you talk to them about it, they'll just be like "how do you know you're not just stopping the natural cycle for a new world to be born?" Anyway, I'm just saying what they're about, not agreeing with their ideology.

[@normanfury8259]

Great video, though I'd disagree on the assessment of Ulfric's speech, it fits with your view of Galmar. Galmar wants to start attacking Imperial holds, which Ulfric doesnt want to do, saying it'd be better to take the cities without bloodshed, as he doesn't want anyone to die if it can be helped, and that the Stormcloaks have to prove they want the best. Galmar says "Then let them die with their false kings." Ulfric shoots that down immediately, and points out people have to think of their family. Galmar insists the Stormcloaks are their family, to which Ulfric then inquires why does Galmer fight for this family (This is why he asks his general this, it's testing Galmar's views). When Galmar says it's to stop the Dominion from ruling over them, Ulfric's characteristic passion shoots up and he begins with "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil!" This is the theme, and matches your view of Galmar, he fights because of his hatred of the Dominion (though has dialogue against this) while Ulfrics entire speech is about the people of his nation. The only time he mentions any foreign enemy is when he points out Skyrim is "impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire". The Nords rhetoric sounds like the majority of independence movements throughout history. Their desire to free themselves for a foreign empire, yet also targeting groups within their border, matches with multiple African, Asian, and American countries in the real world, and most people support those movements. I'm not sure what changed peoples minds with Nords, unless it's their appearance.

[@normanfury8259]

2:35:28 alright, it's definitely their appearance. It's not built on "White Supremacy" and that's a weird inclusion, considering the Redguards would be one of a Nationalistic Nords favorite groups. The Nords nationalism sounds just like the Vietnamese or many African nations views when fighting the French and British, and I'd hardly call them white Nationalists

[@lobselvith8]

Galmar's disparaging remarks about Bretons (during their conversation about High Rock refusing Ulfric's offer at an alliance), in contrast to Ulfric being understanding of their reluctance to align with the Stormcloaks, also show a difference between the two as well. Even the claim about Ulfric hating non-Nords literally comes from someone who turns out to be someone working with the Empire, and who runs Windhelm almost exactly the same way Ulfric does when he gains power through the Empire (and his girlfriend is one of the most racist Nords in Windhelm, something you find out if you hear him speak romantically with her at the tavern); Ulfric's own dialogue doesn't indicate this is the case, especially how he never brings up your race if you join the Stormcloaks as a non-Nord while Galmar does (and the Redguard son from the Reach family joined the Stormcloaks so it's canon that non-Nords have joined them).

[@yell0w355]

The literary connections in your essay are refreshing in a landscape (the gaming critique sphere) so filled to the brim with shallow analysis. Great video!

[@brandonmcgrew4367]

The embassy mission is honestly the most nostalgic mission for me. Remember replaying and replaying saves trying to 100% sneak. Such a fun quest.

[@HickoryDickory86]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm going to come to the Stormcloaks' defense, at least of their estimation of the Dunmer in Windhelm specifically. A bit of backstory for necessary context: It is no secret that the Nords of Skyrim and the Dunmer of Morrowind (and the Chimer of Resdayn before them) have a very troubled, blood-soaked history. Eventually, with the power of the Tribunal waning, Vivec met with Tiber Septim and agreed to have Morrowind join his Empire, signing his Armistice to make it official. Finally, there was a little formal peace after millennia of back-and-forth hostilities and bloodshed. Five years after the Oblivion Crisis, Red Mountain erupted and caused the Red Year. After many other cataclysms around the continent, most being geopolitical in nature, in 4E 16 the High King of Skyrim formally ceded Solstheim to Morrowind and the Dunmer, since many had already been fleeing there for refuge from the devastation of Vvardenfell. Four years later, in 4E 20, the Jarls of Skyrim convened a moot and opened Skyrim to all Dunmer refugees from Morrowind. They declared that the Dunmer refugees would be, and this is essential, "Untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply." ( _Decree of Monument_ at Refugees' Rest) Again, the Dunmer refugees welcomed into Skyrim were given full freedom and autonomy wherever they decided to settle. That means, when an entire section of an ancient Nord city was freely given to them to settle and make their new home, it came under their direct rule; it became their responsibility. Take notice, that was 181 years before the events of Skyrim, which take place in 4E 201. They were given an entire section of a city to call their new home and do with as they wished, and were also given full freedom and autonomy to rule themselves according to their own customs and practice their own religion. The Dunmer of the Gray Quarter have had nearly *_two centuries_* to get their crap together and do something about their situation, and you're telling me that all they've managed to do in all that time is lay around b**ching and whining "woe is me"?! And then they have the gall to be miffed with Ulfric-who, mind you, is leading a full-blown rebellion against the crumbling Mede Empire, while also remaining on alert for any Thalmor activities in his hold-when he doesn't sacrifice his precious time, men, and resources to solve issues that they have all legal authority to take care of themselves? Ulfric has no responsibility to deal with issues in the Gray Quarter. It has been theirs, under their autonomous rule, for 181 years. Why is it a slum? Crime has been rampant in the Gray Quarter for 181 years. Why haven't they developed a guard of their own, and a judicial system to hold perpetrators accountable? House Redoran has done relatively great building up their part of Solstheim and maintaining law and order there. And the Orc Strongholds long ago figured out this autonomy shtick in a Nord land well enough and are doing quite fine. But when the Dunmer refugees were given autonomy, why do they keep insisting it's Ulfric's and the Nords' responsibility to take care of them like they're children? It hasn't been the Nords' responsibility since 4E 20, and the year is now 4E 201. So, considering the others (House Redoran and the Orc Strongholds) who have figured it out and are doing relatively well, why am I supposed to feel sorry for the Dunmer of the Gray Quarter when they have refused, for nearly two centuries, to do anything for themselves? All they want, apparently, is for someone else to come in and do all the heavy lifting for them. They're expressing, in all actuality, a prideful sense of entitlement. Even Isran, with just a skeleton crew and scant resources, has managed almost single-handedly to resurrect an ancient order and renovate an abandoned, dilapidated fort well enough to be useable. And that, in just a handful of years at most. Of course, all of this also leaves out the fact that Windhelm's only stable is owned and operated by two Altmer, Ulundil and his wife Arivanya. The proprietor ofThe White Phial is also an Altmer, Nuerlion, who has an Imperial apprentice who takes over after he dies. And then there's Niranye, another Altmer, who owns and operates a storefront in the city without any issues from anyone. You can ask Niranye if she's ever had any trouble from the Nords, to which she responds, "It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time, I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore." She then adds that the root cause of the Dunmers' woes in the Gray Quarter is their own self-interested pride, which expresses itself in their refusal to put in the hard work of earning the Nords' trust and respect. She, Ulundil, Arivanya, and Nurelion are proof that her assessment is fairly accurate. And just so the point is clear, these are Altmer! The same race of the Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor, the same race that imprisoned and tortured Ulfric! And yet here they are, freely living and owning and operating businesses in his capital city without harassment from anyone. The simple fact of the matter is this: The few outliers aside, neither Ulfric personally nor the Stormcloaks as a group are racist. They are, however, a very traditionalist, resourceful, and proud people, and they do not take kindly to belly aching. "Complain, sure! And loudly, if you must. But then do something about it or die trying!" That's practically the Nord spirit in a nutshell. So, anyone who is willing to put in the hard work and do something about their circumstances in life, the Nords can and will respect that. Galmar may not be giddy about a non-Nord coming to fight for the Stormcloaks (and why should he be?), but once you prove yourself, he welcomes you just the same as he does everyone else. If you're any race other than Nord, you can ask him the Stormcloaks only accept Nords, to which he responds, "You mistake me. I'm not saying no-just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it." So, he's looking for bravery and loyalty above all. They're running a rebellion against a cosmopolitan Empire, after all, and the last thing they need is a knife in the back by a double-agent. **Edited to fix spelling errors, add citations, and add a couple other examples that slipped my mind (e.g., I almost never do the White Phial quest and so I completely forgot about Nurelion).**

[@DukeofWhales]

That was really interesting! I didn’t know that part about the Dunmer autonomy and I wish that was something mentioned by Ulfric or others in Windhelm (maybe they do and I missed it) because I think that would go a long way to changing how people look at the Grey Quarter.

[@HickoryDickory86]

@@DukeofWhales It's not something well known by most players, unfortunately, but is freely accessible knowledge in-game. It's found in the _Decree of Monument_ that can still be found at Refugees' Rest, the eastern most location in Skyrim, just before you reach the border of Morrowind. And it's never stated explicitly that the Gray Quarter was given to the refugees at this point in time, but it is heavily implied by all in-game sources. There are no longer refugees coming from Morrowind. They've all long since taken refuge wherever they chose to do so by this time. This means, even at the latest, it had been under Dunmer autonomy before Ulfric was even born. The book _Scourge of the Gray Quarter_ even mentions Ulfric's father, Hoag, and his "soft hand" toward the Argonians, whose arrival came after that of the Dunmer refugees, and their part of the city had already become known as the Gray Quarter.

[@abdalln8554]

​@@HickoryDickory86It kind of feels like the writers wanted to show the fsllout of the red year with the dunmer being at their lowest, but also really were committed to the 200 year timeskip so they wouldn't have to mention anything from Oblivion/Morrowind. So instead they just wrote them dawdling around for 200 years instead of, i dunno, having the grey quarter be a well run part of the city until very recently due to things outside the residents control, or have the windhelm Dunmer be a newer group of immigrants facing undue suspicion due to the war.

[@HickoryDickory86]

@@soldjaroffortun3 All excellent examples. I had forgotten about the Hlaalu farm (I almost never visit the Windhelm farms.)

[@mortemtyrannus8813]

I'd like to add, and you can look it up for verification, either "Dunmer of Skyrim" or "Scourge of the Grey Quarter" (pretty sure the latter) points to the Riften Dunmer as another example of what's wrong with the Grey Quarter Dunmer. Riften's Dunmer population made the effort to prove to the local Nords that they're not parasites leaching off the former High King's goodwill. They made themselves useful to the city, and the Nords respect them as well as they respect anyone else in Riften that isn't Maven Black-Briar or a part of the Thieves Guild. Meanwhile, if I was to describe the Grey Quarter, I'd just end up repeating the same points you made.

[@VeritasGames]

Just watched this while looking for a similar kind of analysis on Starfield's intro. You mirrored so many of my thoughts about Skyrim's intro exactly. Great video!

[@Illegiblescream]

25:00 This whole section about the difference in tone between The Last Dragonborn Vs. The Champion Of Cyrodil really explains a lot of narrative differences between the games. In Oblivion, you're a mortal hero who rose up when called, and if it hadn't been you it could have been someone else. In Skyrim you are a cleansing flame from the heavens sent to ensure that the end of the world can proceed as planned. Your entire reason for being in Skyrim is to destroy this incarnation of Alduin so he can be remade to destroy Nirn when it becomes necessary. The scope is so much larger than 'just' an invasion from a Sub-Prime Plane.

[@artsyhoodies]

Elder Scrolls 6 NEEDS to let us take some blows against the Thalmor. Either that or let evil characters join them. The build-up for how vile the Thalmor is in Skyrim is perfect to have the next game be more Thalmor focused.

[@krashman200]

The moment I decided that I completely trust your narrative chops was the subtle background story telling of you bringing up the cannibal in the ratways, and then cut to your dragonborn wearing the chef's hat. Beautiful

[@cruros9084]

46:13 I've only done the no fast travel main quest playthrough once and I've climbed that mountain enough times to never want to climb it again.

[@matt36866]

I'm currently doing a survival run as a Breton Spellsword on Expert difficulty (being a father of a 6 month old boy and full time worker I simply don't have the time or patience for Master or Legendary) I can absolutely relate to this. First time to the throat of the world I nearly froze to death... admittedly I'm crap at warmth management still

[@Archaeologyhat]

Your comments on the Empire being mostly unimpeachable in Oblivion are interesting to me because in Morrowind the Empire and it's institution was portrayed as being incredibly flawed, at best well meaning but patronising and at worst actively working with one of the most evil factions in the game out of petty graft and corruption. In many ways I think Skyrim is a much better sequel to Morrowind thematically than Oblivion - though it takes almost the opposite view of epic heroes to Morrowind where the point of the Main quest is that you are the Hero because you did hero stuff, not because you stepped off the boat a hero. A character straight up says "You are not the Nerevarine. You are one who may become the Nerevarine" roughly at the midpoint of the story and it's not clear if the destiny and prophesy angle is true or just convenient to the powerful while in Skyrim you just are the Dragonborn because you're the Dragonborn and that's true from the moment you wake in the cart.

[@lobselvith8]

The Dark Brotherhood quest in Oblivion does involve a young Dunmer woman talking about the colonialism going on in Morrowind at the hands of the Empire. It contrasts sharply with how the Empire is represented throughout most of the game. Morrowind does handle that theme of the Empire's colonialism the best - the Dunmer are flawed, but the Empire's colonial relationship to the land isn't handwaved because of it - something Dragon Age could've learned from given how the marginalized and persecuted Dalish are vilified simply for being victims of racial and religious persecution by the developer's favored group - Andrastian humans.

[@romulusnuma116]

It's been so long it's nice to be pushed to think about Skyrim critically again

[@Argacyan]

On my first playthrough I actually didn't know you could go with Hadvar for 3 reasons: Ralof talks first, about escape & runs to this big gate which is clearly the main entrance. I found out you can just join the Empire anyhow because of that.

[@georgemurdock7670]

Wich is a shame cuz the empire should join the dragonborn, the rightful emperor, or die for there treason

[@kosaba11]

The Civil War questline desperately needed a third option - one where you unite the Imperial and Stormcloaks against the real enemies, the Thalmor. Not only does the Dragonborn literally learn and obtain evidence of the Thalmor's interference in the Civil War, and them wanting it to continue so that the Empire would remain weak, they had plenty of ways to pull it off and some characters they could reveal to be working with the Thalmor. One that immediately comes to mind is Elisif, after all she's already the biggest villain in the game. Not only is it her lie about how Torygg died, with her framing it as though Ulfric murdered him in cold blood rather than in an honorable duel - which is what happens and Torygg himself confirms this in Sovangarde - Elisif also has the most to gain. She immediately became Jarl of Solitude with her husband's death, and from the dialogue of her steward you know that she's guaranteed to be High Queen. This thirst for power and manipulative nature would make her an easy choice for a Thalmor spy who is in charge of keeping the Civil War going.

[@DeltaDanner]

Even Tullius doesn’t trust the Thalmor and knows they are banking on the weakening of the Empire. We are shown who the real villains are but instead of going after them we either join the Empire and eliminate the last of true Nord civilization or we join the Stormcloaks and go on an ethnocentric crusade against non-Nords.

[@big_slurp4603]

1:10:16 This is a pretty bad take He is objectively right. Alduin isn't some evil force like Mankar Camoran or Dagoth Ur - he is himself a force of the very nature of Mundus. The only reason the Dragonborn exists is because Alduin has strayed from his nature and seeks dominion over mundus instead of destroying it entirely, so the divines saw fit to send a Dragonborn. It can only be assumed that when, not if, Alduin returns he will fulfil his divine duty and initiate the next Kalpa cycle. Arengir isn't some selfish old ignorant coot, he *does* have wisdom that the vast majority of players do not have; the true nature of the Elder Scrolls universe - paarthurnax himself reinforces this idea and challenges the player by arguing that it is selfish to cling onto this world at the expense of the next. You also need to remember the way of the voice has very close relations to Kynareth, the divine representing nature. He cannot be expected to go against thousands of years of history and religious philosophy just because he wishes not to die or because the player demands it, his own philosophy is deeply entrenched in harmony with nature, good or bad, so acceptance of Alduin, a force of nature, is completely reasonable for the greybeards and I doubt they possess the deep, intimate knowledge that paarthurnax has of how Alduin has strayed from his purpose, who himself probably only requests intervention because he knows Alduins aim isnt to start the next Kalpa. If Alduin did want to, however, I doubt paarthurnax would have helped the player nor would the player even exist for that matter. Yeah, the end of all things would be bad. That is the point. But it is objectively just the way things are in the TES universe. It has happened before, Molag Bal is implied to be from the last Kalpa for example (assuming Vivecs dubious account can be trusted), and it will happen again.

[@ryukentuken2947]

Still would love to see narrative critique of Nehrim or Enderal. Maybe comparison between this games and Elder Scrolls

[@GatorThyMe]

It is striking to be consumed by Bethesda's horrible writing for half a decade, only to play Enderal, and being told an actually compelling story, that is still walking with the skeleton of Skyrim.

[@MagnyrDelorn]

I came here to shill for Enderal. It's the best game most Skyrim people have never heard of.

[@SeviiIsland]

@@MagnyrDelorn the story really fumbles near the end imo

[@MagnyrDelorn]

@@SeviiIsland that seems to be the impression of a ton of people, but not me, personally. I really appreciate all the endings.

[@lb5818]

if he did a narrative critique of mass effect 3 it could double as an enderal one

[@TheLucidChiba]

Finally! Finally someone else sees the insanity of having such a small crate to catch heads in. Thank you.

[@zexionthefirst6767]

Theres at LEAST one of us for each head in that crate!

[@bringoni]

I was bothered by these even as a 12 year old kid

[@aaronsanborn4291]

You know Skyrim honestly influenced how I played Red Dead 2. I've played Skyrim since it was released. I try to play as the person everyone looks up to.

[@atrixtussand2369]

In Oblivion a there was obvious hint about empire crumbling, cohesion disappearing and Thalmor rise to power. You could overheard it on the streets and in taverns. "They say syndicates of wizards have led a boycott of Imperial goods in the land of the Altmer." I just love how back than Bethesda had great plans for the franchise, and was not afraid to show it.

[@ima6pack]

The number of times I felt forced to make "decisions" through gritted teeth in Skyrim ruined so much potential RP and immersion for me. Want to be a good warrior and join the equivalent of the fighters guild? Must take on lycanthropy. Think that the Silverhand are the good guys? No they're bad because the story says so. Want to avoid being the dragonborn and join the legion? Get sent to Whiterun and be forced to do the dragonstone questline before Balgruuf will speak to you. Want to destroy the dark brotherhood? Great you get to destroy a den of PROFESSIONAL ASSASSINS all by yourself. Want to do the main questline? You MUST join the College of Winterhold. Want to restore the blades to the glory they had in Oblivion and Morrowind? Kill Parthurnaax. It just seems like Skyrim was riddled with lazy writing and faux-choices that facilitated very few styles of play. What's more, loot in Skyrim sucked and aesthetic diversity (or lack thereof) killed roleplayability. Advancing through the legion? Here's random dwarven armor. Finding the Red Eagle's Bane? Generic Draugr sword. The Pale Blade? Generic Draugr sword. Axe of Whiterun (and all other thane weapons)? Random leveled axe. I could go on. The vast majority of "unique" items were the daedric artifacts which, if you're playing a "good guy" locks you out of roleplayability. This is just the tip of the iceberg but essentially Bethesda made a "go do whatever you want" style game, then told us how to play when we got to where we were going.

[@Spaxder2]

Yea, i'm very disturbed by the stormcloaks and their... desire to preserve their religion and autonomy... wait what?

[@MiggyBird]

I’ll always disagree with the people who think there’s a clear and obvious choice on which side to take in the civil war. But I also think it’s good that there are so many different perspectives. Skyrim offers a surprisingly nuanced and subjective conflict, something fantasy adventures almost never get to do. Paarthurnax and to a lesser extent Alduin also seem to get people thinking and talking. And I think, when we’re talking about a game where every player gets their own experience, that out-of-game discussion is just as valuable as any in-game arguments the player might have picked off of a menu. It may be true that, within the game, the player doesn’t have the opportunity to say very much about these issues, and that you’re mostly restricted to solving problems with action from behind a sword. But maybe Skyrim wasn’t designed for a dialogue between the player and NPCs. Maybe, in the same way that the first Legend of Zelda game on the NES was designed to have obtuse secrets that you could share with friends rather than finding them all organically yourself, Skyrim is designed with the idea that players will have a lot to say to each other about things that are difficult to engage with through a controller. Maybe the point of Skyrim’s story was to be talked about. In which case, hot damn, did they ever succeed.

[@codypendency9482]

You mentioning the illiad was awesome I've been listening to it at work I can't believe the detail some old stories have it's incredible

[@XDivineSouljax]

You must not get to the Cloud District very often.

[@AskTorin]

Your vocal fry / editor's self awareness is beautiful, man. I highly respect for your work. I was unexpectedly and helplessly gripped by your review of "Firewatch"! Thanks for your work :) cheers

[@DragonRoost1]

I'd like to point out that Skyrim is like...80-90% Nords lore wise, so the whole 'Skyrim for the Nords' actually makes more sense. It's like the Irish or the Scottish or an African warlord shouting *insert country name here* is for the *insert countryman title here* as a rallying cry against the Brittish Empire even though there are Brits living there as well who also support their independence. You won't get a proper revolutionary army on your side if your not targeting the majority population for your recruitment. And...yeah, Ulfric thinking Torygg not being strong enough to defend himself in a duel means he's not strong enough to rule Skyrim makes sense from a Nord Perspective. I mean...how could it not? You did spend 2/3's of this video going over the Cultural importance of a Physical aka battle strength being equated to godliness and righteousness as a very key and founding principle of Nord Culture, and as repeatedly stressed throughout the game, even some of their laws such as the Ancient right of Trial by Combat that Ulfric pulled on Torygg with that duel. As for Torygg being a wise ruler...I doubt that. IF he was a Wise Ruler, then would have declined Ulfric his challenge. Yes, that meant it would go to a Moot, but at the very least by doing that, any change in power would have been a peaceful one and NOT have led to a civil war. As for siding with the Imperials...I don't know. I think they are even dumber then the Stormcloaks. They knew the whole Civil War was a Thalmor plot and played along, sacrificing their troops when they could have just as easily allowed Skyrim to secede as they did with Hammerfell, perhaps allowing it under the condition of a mutual defense pact against the Dominion. They refused. Instead they wanted to retain control and maintain their 'image' of an 'Empire'. Personally, my only rightful faction to join on the civil war is the New Vegas faction. Aka, the Dragonborn for High King faction.

[@lobselvith8]

It's a basic battle cry that, unfortunately, every Nord NPC will say, and doesn't necessarily reflect any of them because the game doesn't gate who can and can't say it. It's like the bugged Gildergreen sapling that wasn't even fixed in the Anniversary Edition.

[@deacon6221]

Yeah I never got why people support Hammerfell having their own independent province that is “for the redguards” but didn’t support Skyrim having their own province that is “for the nords.” Idk if it’s real life bias of people seeing white Anglo Saxon looking people and thinking they are nazis automatically or what.

[@RestingJudge]

No worries man, I'll listen to it again! Happy that someone else can identify the themes of Beowulf

[@aaronturner444]

I noticed during your quest to find Esbern in riften you said your attacked by an argonian, it's actually a Khajiit female she was the cook/chef from the Thalmor Embassy

[@RivalBiscuits]

Hearing someone complain about the head crate is one of the most validating things I’ve ever experienced

[@MrGutty117]

Hey man, just wanted to say that you both extensively hit on things I felt were very much lacking from the writing in this game, as well as providing new and interesting perspectives on plotlines and questlines that simply needed improvement or tweaking. Your suggestions on the Hrothgar Moot and your focus on the Rikke/Galmar/Ulfirc interactions were particularly compelling. You've put a ton of work into providing a well-rounded, objective approach to the quest-writing in this game based both off academic study and an understanding that games are a unique medium. Well done brother, and I'm looking forward to your next videos. PS: No pressure whatsoever, but I'm dying for a narrative critique of Morrowind :)

[@jackthomas8956]

Watched this video due to the algorithm when it first came out. It was so good, it made me sub and watch both your videos twice. Might as well put this in the background to watch a third/forth time to make sure your channel doesn't get tanked!

[@chrisrose_krii_lun_aus]

I've watched some EpicNate stuff who knows how many times. They get better with each watch

[@theNEWMASKSdudexxx]

I'm curious about one thing. You go after Ulfric and the Stormcloaks and racial discrimination in Windhelm, yet you barely touch on Tullius' own racial condescension and dismissal of Nords as a whole. Even worse, you hardly touch the Thalmor and how siding with the Empire gives them free reign to oppress and torment the Nordic denizens of Skyrim without consequence. Furthermore, the Thalmor are *infinitely* more racist than Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. They literally discriminate against every other race and even use the term "Elven Supremacy". How do you analyze Skyrim's Civil War and conveniently miss out on that crucial downside?

[@PoisenedViolet12]

Fiction is a mirror of the real world so you’d have to completely tone deaf to irl events to see why painting the Nords as the ‘oppressed race’ is a fucking terrible idea

[@loganscott814]

​​@@PoisenedViolet12it's not necessarily a 'mirror' you're going to like. The Thalmor are clearly supposed to be like the [bad guys of ww2], idk what to tell you.

[@ElectrifiedBacon]

you have put all my abstract and bargled thoughts about this game into coherent words. thank you.

[@Proud_Fenian]

I dont think the stormcloaks are an allegory for white supremacists. As an Irish man I can relate to throwing out an empire and claiming our homeland for ourselves.

[@YoRHautomaton2]

Heheheha carbomb

[@LonelyKnightess]

Yeah but that's not what is actually said, is it? Ulfric and the Stormcloaks don't singularly hate the Empire, they have a record of hating foreigners. It's one thing for the Irish to want the removal of the British government but it'd be another if they started putting Indians and blacks into ghettos because they might be 'foreign imperial infiltrators'.

[@CorvoFG]

It’s odd that as an Englishman, I kind of see them as the “Brexit” faction. Even stranger that as a remainer in that ideology, I’ve never once sided with the empire. From the start, their decision to execute you simply for being in the wrong place, at the wrong time just highlights how weak they are and that they can no longer justify their existence on a statement of “because I said so”.

[@LonelyKnightess]

@@CorvoFG People get executed while innocent literally all the time, it's doubtful that the Stormcloaks have much in the way of a justice system either, especially when they're happy to establish racial ghettos.

[@matiasserio2427]

Wow thank you for saving me 3 hours of video he can not think of the possibility of a nation wanting to go their own way

[@justme0910]

The lack of meaningful roleplaying options really does make the narrative feel so much more shallow than it actually is. I LOVE creating complex characters and viewing the world I temporarily inhabit through THEIR eyes, making choices as THEY would make them, and building relationships with NPCs that reflect those choices, but you can't really do that in Skyrim because the player is forced to take on the role of a perpetual outsider who has no backstory, no personality, and no opinions. I understand why the devs went in that direction. In some ways, it's preferable to other RPGs which pretend to give you nuanced dialogue options and gameplay choices, but still undermine player agency at every turn. (My main example of this is Dragon Age: Inquisition, which pigeonholes you into being a character who is, at most, somewhat hesitant when it comes to leading an explicitly Andrastian organization aimed at reclaiming Chantry power and restoring the pre mage rebellion Status Quo ... something the average Dalish elf would probably only do if held at swordpoint the entire time, and most mages would also have strong opinions about.) That doesn't make it any less frustrating, though. The game barely even acknowledges the Dragonborn's race (which is a curious choice for a setting that's steeped in racial conflict), let alone their narrative choices, and the nameless, faceless, interchangeable guards are the only characters who comment on the DB's skills, titles and equipment, while everyone else cares more about whether you stole a fork from their home or did a meaningless fetch quest for them than whether you are a convicted serial murderer or the mighty vanquisher of Alduin. I wish the dialogue mattered at least a little outside out of exposition and a handful of persuasion/intimidation checks. I want to be able to play as a shrewd, ambitious scholar willing to go through extreme lengths for knowledge, or a cynical pickpocket with a bitter hatred for Ulfric, or a sheltered rich kid joining the Civil War in an act of youthful rebellion, or an honest, diplomatic reformed criminal desperate to prove his honour to the people of Skyrim, without having to make up entire conversations in my head while traipsing across the tundra with a generic companion who has nothing interesting to say to me. (Divines bless the few good companion mods out there that fix this by adding some actually unique characters to the world so you have someone to play off of.) I think that's the reason most people latched onto Paarthurnax so strongly. He, Hadvar and Ralof are the only characters who are willing to treat you like someone worth having an actual conversation with, however briefly. It'd be an amazing piece of writing if it were intentional - with everyone seeing the DB as a tool or a symbol, so much larger than life that it becomes dehumanizing, and only a fellow Dovah trying to understand the legendary hero as an individual. It'd drive home the fact that the DB really does have the soul of a dragon, and that this comes with a price.

[@unknowngamer37415]

I had something pointed out to me about ulfric. Multiple characters in the blue palace mention that if ulfric had asked The high King probably would have seceded from the empire. This and the differences in how non-nor races are treated in solitude and windhilm suggest to me that it was more about grabbing power then serving the populace. I also don't think sovngarde is depicted as needing to be truly righteous only believing you were righteous. There is no judge exempt for your actions in life. So mentioning the stormcloaks going to sovngarde doesn't mean their actions were moral ( the devs putting them as equally flawed factions)

[@egoalter1276]

Ulfric challanged torygg for the throne in honourable duel, and won. The latter knew this was because ulfric wanted to fight the aeldmeri dominion, and yet chose to fight the duel, rather than secede. Therefore whoever gives you that lime has either misjudged the situation, or is a lying sack of shit. The duel thing is not a matter of an umreliable narrator. Thorygg tells you himself in Sovngard.

[@loganscott814]

Yes, the characters in Solitude will want to make Ulfric look bad. The characters in Windhelm will want to do the opposite.

[@bigboi8028]

I feel like a missed opportunity to actually make the conflict interesting is if they had it that Ulfric cared for the people, like Skyrim seems to want us to believe that he's charismatic and easily draws people in, but they missed the chance by having examples of him realising that there's a greater threat and pulling together. Like imagine the opening set piece when Alduin attacks, people are obviously panicking but Ulfric calls out orders to help get people out safety, with even Imperials listening. You would then at least see how he could pull people into his ideas and contrast with Tullius, who is more tactically minded, but isn't too attached to the people outside of the ones he fights with. But instead the first time he properly speaks it's just a pathetic rant to his second in command.

[@haldosprime3896]

1:54:48 I think you’re reading a bit too much into the afterlife stuff, just in context to the killing. The whole reason either side kills the enemy is just to get rid of them on their current plane of existence. Like, maybe olfrich will go to the equivalent of heaven, but he won’t be in Skyrim mucking up the legions rule, so that’s all that matters. It’s still a very interesting topic to bring up, but I don’t think it’s that important in terms of the empire or storm cloak motivation. Everyone is focused on the here and now in regards to the civil war, not the afterlife.

[@abdalln8554]

It is kinda wacky that "take no prisoners" is a morally ok position in TES lol.

[@bigfootfighter4132]

Probably my least favorite Delphine moment (I hate all of them) is when you tell her you don’t trust her and aren’t interested in helping her after she gives you the horn and she basically just says that you’ll have to come around to continue playing the game. She literally ends the sentence saying you’ll come back, “YOU HAVE TO.” It’s this almost fourth wall breaking reminder that yes, most of the story is centered around taking orders from this incredibly unlikable character. Why do we even need to break into the thalmor embassy for information? The only reason we do that is because Delphine hates them and is overly suspicious of them. Surprise surprise, they don’t know what the hell is happening with the dragons either. Why would they? Because “elves are evil.” Give me a break, Delphine can do her own espionage. The ONLY reason it progresses the story is you happen to stumble upon a document about Esbern. Realistically, the main story could not include Delphine or Esbern and still be possible, you’d simply have to do your own research into Alduin and the dragons returning. Is Esbern really the only person in Skyrim who knows about the history of the dragons? What about the Bard’s college? Or the college of Winterhold? Or Ulfric Stormcloak? Or the Graybeards? Or it’s simply contained within hard to find books you read to discover the existence of Alduin’s wall and Dragonrend.

[@egoalter1276]

Elves are evil. Skyrim does a terrible job of conveying this, but the thalmor are basically fucking nazis.

[@ianbyrne465]

Hey man, i just wanted to say I’m super into your work so far! I came across your work recently after playing Firewatch, and I’ve been looking through your whole catalogue now. It’s such a cool way to examine games, since it feels so rare to really see deep-dives into the stories of games. I’d love to see some more, specific titles, but I don’t want to be that guy. I’m just super happy to find your work, and hope you keep enjoying it!

[@ydahshet9428]

I love your commentary, not overly negative or positive, you really dig into the story and themes without any pretentiousness. Will subscribe.

[@PsychicAlchemy]

I used to side with the Empire for the reasons provided in the video, but as I've delved more into the subtle details and history of Nordic culture I've shifted more toward the Stormcloaks. The element of racism is placed front and center in the player's face, as if it's some shallow, unjustified identitarianism. Yet remember that the Dunmer have a dark history of supremacy and slavery, and outright disdain for the Nords. Despite this and the eras-long history of the Nords being needlessly attacked by Mer, the Nords showed kindness took them in anyway. In a harsh land with minimal resources, they still made room for them in an already-cramped city. Ulfric himself was raised to show sympathy for such a plight, and I see no indication that he thinks otherwise. His goal is what Nords have wanted for millennia - autonomy, and to be left the hell alone. Notice that there are even two Altmer living in the nice part of Windhelm, despite overt conflict with the Thalmor, and despite Niranye's possible connections to Thalmor spies. The only real barrier appears to be wealth rather than race. The Dunmer just seem to be in an outright pickle; geographically their location makes it more difficult to find work, and there are minimal resources for them to make a living with. And the reason the Dunmer and Argonian populations are so segregated is because they keep killing each other over ancestral grudges - and where would they go anyway? There's hardly any space or resources unless they just built a whole new city. The "It's not our fight" line is especially poignant here. Despite all the aid the Nords have given for generations, with minimal resources that _could still potentially be shared in exchange for cooperation,_ most of the Dunmer would still not ally themselves with the pursuit of self-determination. Even despite their relationship with the Empire being tenuous to begin with. It seems like most of the Dunmer are largely too proud and resentful to integrate and become productive enough to pull themselves out of poverty. If anything, I'd be willing to bet that with the Empire out of the picture, Skyrim would be doing far better economically, and that would provide the Dunmer with more mobility in turn. This isn't to say that the racism should be ignored outright, but I think it's a lesser and overstated point that doesn't detract from the more virtuous side of the Stormcloaks' goals. Chances are it will amount to nothing.

[@PsychicAlchemy]

To be clear though, I loved the video overall, as well as the others you've done! There's just a lot of detail that I think goes unnoticed, and that is perhaps Bethesda's intention to make the conflict more complicated overall. Even _with_ the extra detail it's complicated.

[@rossnorris2351]

Thank you Psychic, I've been looking for this argument and have never quite been able to find the right words. I don't do words well. Now I wish I had seen this when I was still hanging out with a buddy of mine.

[@hiddenshadow2105]

I stopped siding with Ulrik when I've heard of his 'achievements' in massacring the Reach.

[@AdmiralSloth]

That was an imperial propaganda book btw

[@wdf70]

My biggest problem with Bethesda games is that the developers do not communicate when it comes to their respective questlines. The world does not reflect your choices in guilds or certain quests. The only thing we ever see are Imperial or Stormcloak patrols where there were normally one or the other based on who owns the hold. Only guards ever comment on you becoming Archmage, Listener, Nightengale or Harbinger. Sadly it's a problem with the open world nature of Bethesda games and they don't want to introduce even more spaghetti code to their worlds, but it just screams "We picked out 4 or 5 factions to give the good quest lines" and god forbid they interfere in any tiny way or picking one blocks you out from another (You know, like a meaningful choice you have to make.)

[@jeremiahpuckett4259]

One thought I had about the "no afterlife judgement" topic is that in TES IV, when you go onto the Oblivion gates, inside the towers you see a lot of corpses hanging all over. It may be people that daedra brought into the gates, or it could be people that were sent there by someone to be totured by daedra

[@TheSkateNsnow]

Amazing video. Have listened to it twice so far driving at work 🙏🏼

[@EricIsntSmart]

My favorite thing about the storm cloaks is that when the Nords did populate skyrim almost entirely(after massacring the natives), they served the dragons, making the dragonborn closer to the true king than the Nords are(by their logic)

[@ShinOmega1196]

Really really appreciate the highlighting of how, despite being mechanically empowering, Skyrim is rather disempowering when it comes to the narrative side of things. The fact that the Thalmor are obviously the greatest threat to Cyrodil but there's simply nothing to be done about it really did make things feel incomplete, those loose threads left hanging. (part of me wonders if it's vital to ES6 that they stay in power and unchallenged, but I'm not even totally convinced we didn't all hallucinate that announcement at this point) I think they could've done something interesting, if the game examined the difference between the types of conflict present in it--how the player character, an epic hero who is perfectly suited to staving off the dragon apocalypse, is ill-equipped to make positive change in the more complex political systems of the modern world--but it doesn't do that with any sort of intentionality. Sidenote: WOW the Stormcloaks are bad seeing it laid out like this. When I was younger I think I got so caught up in the issue of Talos (with my vague recollection of him as a good thing from Oblivion) that I overlooked everything else, not being attentive enough to notice the Imperials were leniant about that, or smart enough to notice the really quite overt supremacist mindset of the Stormcloaks. Looking back now though? Yikes.

[@teddyboucher1848]

1:35:34 I would argue that Markarth has symbolic significance for Ulfric as they had "betrayed" him by siding with the Empire after the Markarth Incident.

[@borisdaanimal4014]

one thing we should also note about the stormcloak's racism is that [i think?] it's reactionary - it's kind of a trope in history that, when a culture is threatened by another invading culture, one's cultural identity is leveraged [often facetiously, by whoever has power and an axe to grind] as motivation to combat that invasion. the empire in the game are almost uniformly imperial, rather than a diversity of cultures. if the game was set in cyrodiil and stormcloaks were the invaders, we'd probably see a similar attitude from the imperials, leaning into their past sovereignty in reaction to the stormcloak threat. the empire also succeeded in their colonial attempts - we only see stormcloak racism in a burgeoning state, but the empire has a long history of extending what the stormcloaks have just started. i think this hypocrisy often slinks under the radar, but the biggest failure [as you mentioned] is that the player has no means of challenging any of it

[@lobselvith8]

It's more a trait of many Nords as the Stormcloaks do accept the Redguard son from the Reach family (they mention he joined the Stormcloaks if you overhear them in the tavern), and the argument you initially hear at Windhelm (between two Nords who aren't with the Stormcloaks and a random Dunmer woman) makes it clear non-Nords can join the Stormcloaks, but the Hlaalu Dunmer in Windhelm don't (perhaps due to their past Imperial ties given the Legion armor you can find at the cornerclub).